Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Advance35]

The only thing about the Jon/Dany storyline that bothers me is Jon offering the North to Dany on a silver platter.   I think that should have been a decision made by the one Stark he knows is alive.   It's not like he offers an "Alliance", he grants Dany ownership.  After enduring Ramsay in those very halls, for Jon to sell the place out from under her like that, I couldn't blame Sansa for entertaining the idea of a Red Wedding Sequel.   Everything else about their Story seems by the numbers.   I think the only thing that will be of interesting to me will probably be Ramin Djawadi musical score.

From my understanding Cersei pays the Golden Company with the funds she gets from Sacking Highgarden.  Not surprising since the Tyrells were carrying the financial load in their alliance with House Lannister.   What a final FU to Olenna, Margaery and Loras.   Good Lord the Tyrells were literally on top of the world 2 seasons ago.

I am actually really looking forward to Cersei's storyline this season.   I think LH is going to elevate her material, as she always does.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, Aziraphale said:

Awayfortheladspart2 posted some more details:

Thanks for typing all this up. One additional alleged tidbit from /awayfortheladspart2:

The Unsullied attack Casterly Rock with a large force, while Grey Worm leads a small group in via Tyrion's secret whore entrance and kills the garrison force there. Casterly Rock is taken in 7x03. (Awayfortheladspart2 said earlier that this turns out to be a pyrrhic victory since Jaime and Cersei were planning on this and intend to make Casterly Rock difficult for Dany's forces by cutting them off from the sea and from land, which works sufficiently well that Grey Worm and company abandon Casterly Rock by the end of the season.)

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

The only thing about the Jon/Dany storyline that bothers me is Jon offering the North to Dany on a silver platter.   I think that should have been a decision made by the one Stark he knows is alive.   It's not like he offers an "Alliance", he grants Dany ownership.  After enduring Ramsay in those very halls, for Jon to sell the place out from under her like that, I couldn't blame Sansa for entertaining the idea of a Red Wedding Sequel.  

I think Jon would sell not just his title but the north and everyone in it to Dany if he thought it would save them from the WW. Titles, claims, and birthrights don't mean squat if you're dead. Sansa and everyone else are going to have to get over it.

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

What a final FU to Olenna, Margaery and Loras.   Good Lord the Tyrells were literally on top of the world 2 seasons ago.

The Tyrells reaped what they sowed, in my opinion. The Tyrells threw Margaery at the throne, figuring they could deal with Joffrey's psychopathic tendencies later. Then, when this turned out not to be the case, Olenna murdered Joffrey to replace him with the more biddable Tommen, setting in motion a chain of events that got rid of Tywin and thereby eliminated the only restraint on Cersei's ability to do whatever she wanted. Margaery proceeded to make matters worse by goading Cersei to assert her superiority and remind her of her irrelevance (fueling Cersei's anger and fear), and Loras ignored Margaery's warning to be discreet with his affairs, thereby giving Cersei dirt on him (and allowing Cersei to set a trap for Margaery by relying on her willingness to lie to protect Loras). Essentially, all three of them--Olenna, Margaery and Loras--made the same mistake everyone who's ever been bested by Cersei has made: they underestimated her capacity for cruelty and vindictiveness.

[Brn2bwild]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Thanks for typing all this up. One additional alleged tidbit from /awayfortheladspart2:

The Unsullied attack Casterly Rock with a large force, while Grey Worm leads a small group in via Tyrion's secret whore entrance and kills the garrison force there. Casterly Rock is taken in 7x03. (Awayfortheladspart2 said earlier that this turns out to be a pyrrhic victory since Jaime and Cersei were planning on this and intend to make Casterly Rock difficult for Dany's forces by cutting them off from the sea and from land, which works sufficiently well that Grey Worm and company abandon Casterly Rock by the end of the season.)

I think Jon would sell not just his title but the north and everyone in it to Dany if he thought it would save them from the WW. Titles, claims, and birthrights don't mean squat if you're dead. Sansa and everyone else are going to have to get over it.

The Tyrells reaped what they sowed, in my opinion. The Tyrells threw Margaery at the throne, figuring they could deal with Joffrey's psychopathic tendencies later. Then, when this turned out not to be the case, Olenna murdered Joffrey to replace him with the more biddable Tommen, setting in motion a chain of events that got rid of Tywin and thereby eliminated the only restraint on Cersei's ability to do whatever she wanted. Margaery proceeded to make matters worse by goading Cersei to assert her superiority and remind her of her irrelevance (fueling Cersei's anger and fear), and Loras ignored Margaery's warning to be discreet with his affairs, thereby giving Cersei dirt on him (and allowing Cersei to set a trap for Margaery by relying on her willingness to lie to protect Loras). Essentially, all three of them--Olenna, Margaery and Loras--made the same mistake everyone who's ever been bested by Cersei has made: they underestimated her capacity for cruelty and vindictiveness.

At the same time, am I the one who finds it a little weird that Cersei and Jaime are suddenly great tacticians, to the extent that they're outsmarting Tyrion?  The guy who held back Stannis's assault on King's Landing should be able to think two steps ahead and anticipate that they would try that very thing (cut off Dany's forces from sea and from land).

[OhOkayWhat]

52 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think Jon would sell not just his title but the north and everyone in it to Dany if he thought it would save them from the WW. Titles, claims, and birthrights don't mean squat if you're dead. Sansa and everyone else are going to have to get over it

I agree with this part of your commentary. Proper succession, rightful heirs, etc. are irrelevant if we think in the huge Winter cataclysmic event that will face the whole Planetos. 

By the way, I do no see how people thinks the hypothetical Season 7 plot is full of fanservice. I think it is actually the opposite: almost not fanservice at all. An example: lots of people expecting Dany easily winning all her battles and taking the throne? well, if the leaks are true, that will not happen at all. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

At the same time, am I the one who finds it a little weird that Cersei and Jaime are suddenly great tacticians, to the extent that they're outsmarting Tyrion? 

I think the first /awayforthelads made a point of saying that Tyrion underestimates Jaime. The first /awayforthelads said that Cersei also comes up with the method of Tyene's execution (poisoned in front of her mother as payback for Myrcella). WOTW seems to suggest that it's Cersei's idea to sack Highgarden (to pay the Iron Bank debt). Besides that, I don't know how many good ideas can be laid at Cersei's feet.

With all that said, even if only the first /awayforthelads is legit, Team Cersei still apparently scores a number of victories in Season 7: destroying the Sand Snakes and Yara's fleet, executing the traitorous Sand Snakes, sacking Highgarden and getting rid of Olenna, successfully using the population of KL as human shields and resisting surrender, etc. Even if the writers attribute Team Cersei's success not to Cersei but to the marginally smarter Jaime, it will come at the expense of making Tyrion look like an idiot. Making brilliant characters conveniently stupid or dumb characters conveniently brilliant is a hallmark of bad writing.

15 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I agree with this part of your commentary. Proper succession, rightful heirs, etc. are irrelevant if we think in the huge Winter cataclysmic event that will face the whole Planetos. 

By the way, I do no see how people thinks the hypothetical Season 7 plot is full of fanservice. I think it is actually the opposite: almost not fanservice at all. An example: lots of people expecting Dany easily winning all her battles and taking the throne? well, if the leaks are true, that will not happen at all. 

There is some fanservice, from the looks of it--the vastly unpopular Sand Snakes getting offed, Jaime and Brienne seeing each other again, Gendry with a warhammer, Jon and Tyrion meeting up again and being friends, Jorah being improbably cured of greyscale, etc.--but a lot of it is anti-fanservice, I agree: including a romantic sex scene but having it between two characters that no one cares about in a non-book romance just seems mean.

Also, it seems that there's something in the first /awayforthelads leaks to disappoint anyone who's a fan of a particular character. Pretty much everyone comes off badly.

1. Sansa: argues strongly in favour of punishing the Karstark and Umber heirs, happily lets Jon go south to face danger when she hears that he'll leave her in charge, bickers with Arya, is easily deceived by Littlefinger until Bran sets her right.

2. Arya: coldly engages in mass murder, sees Nymeria again and then leaves her (because she's too wild or some shiz), gets fooled by Littlefinger into thinking Sansa's a traitor thanks to a letter Sansa wrote when she was a prisoner in KL and not free to write anything of her own accord, acts as Sansa's executioner.

3. Jon: ditches Ghost at Winterfell, kneels to Dany, falls in love with Dany, bangs Dany, renounces his KITNship without consulting the Northern lords when Dany agrees to help him, dumb enough to think the wight hunt is a good idea, dumb enough to think Cersei will honour her pledge of troops, almost gets himself killed during the wight hunt and is only saved because Benjen sacrifices himself, real name is Aegon.

4. Dany: engages in ill-advised ambush, burns the Tarlys over Tyrion's objections (inevitably invoking Mad King comparisons, I'm sure), runs a shit campaign and is forced to agree to a dumb parlay, dumb enough to think Cersei will honour her pledge of troops, lets Jon and Jorah go on a suicide mission and then loses a dragon trying to bail them out.

5. Tyrion: outfoxed by Cersei and Jaime of all people, spends most of the season unsuccessfully trying to convince people not to do stupid shit, runs a shit campaign that results in the parlay, either dumb enough to think Cersei will honour her pledge of troops or incapable of convincing Jon and Dany otherwise.

6. Jaime: refuses to agree to a negotiated surrender, spends the season helping Cersei even after she has committed mass murder and only abandons her when she admits she has no intention of honouring her pledge of troops.

7. Varys: frets about Dany's impulsiveness, does jack shit otherwise as far as we know.

8. Meera: ditches Bran at Winterfell because "the real Bran died in the cave," is not seen again.

9. Littlefinger: spends Season 7 trying to pit two teenage girls against each other through an easily explained letter, fails and is executed by same teenage girls.

10. Bran: spends Season 7 spaced out and distant, says nothing about Jon's mother being Lyanna except to Sam at the end of the season, doesn't put together the pieces about Jon's parentage until 7x07 despite what he saw in 6x10.

11. Sam: gets bored at the Citadel and decides to peace out without having learned anything useful that could be used against the WW; only discovers Jon's legitimacy accidentally, and only because of Gilly's efforts.

12. Sandor: apparently afraid of seeing Brienne again because he doesn't want to get his ass kicked again, goes nowhere near Sansa.

Even the dead characters aren't safe in Season 7, as we learn that Rhaegar apparently annulled his marriage to Elia and named Jon "Aegon."

It almost feels like D&D sat down and wondered what would piss off fans the most, and worked backwards from there.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Also, it seems that there's something in the first /awayforthelads leaks to disappoint anyone who's a fan of a particular character. Pretty much everyone comes off badly.

Characters comes off badly because they sometimes do bad things. Sometimes fans seems to have a hard time accepting their favs do bad/stupid things.

And in some cases (example:Jon and his Wight mission) fans think it is their fav doing something bad/stupid, when in fact, it is the opposite.

Reading the 12 points you mention, I see that most of them are, in my opinion, just the narrative going forward and making sense. So instead of thinking about the showrunners trying to write to upset fans, I imagine them simply writing following their own narrative plan.

I think the fans have their own headcanon for the characters, in many cases heavily influenced by the novels. And then they just extrapolate their headcanons in the show and therefore they find they do not like the plot, without noticing the character they expected to see in it, actually never existed in first place.

An example: Show-Littlefinger is a villain, but never was the big chessmaster of Westeros...he is simply a villain an also an ambitious manipulator and gambler who made some unexpected moves from time to time.

Or Show-Sandor: he is not the headcanon that some people imagine about him, specially about how they interprete his scenes with Sansa. So, what reason we have to expect that he will go to Winterfell because Sansa is there?

Edited January 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[GreyBunny]

Removing the novels, even the show has inconsistencies and characters acting stupid for no reason.  D&D are going from plot point to plot point but are ruining characterizations and even basic common sense in the process.  A big example:  Sansa agreeing to go to the Boltons and marry Ramsay.  There was no reason at all for her to do this. NONE.  It offered her NO advantage and only put her at a huge disadvantage.  It made her, Littlefinger, and even the Boltons look like complete and utter morons.   Another one: Jon and his party returning from Hardhome NORTH of the wall.  Really?  After getting torn to shreds by the WW and an army of wights they didn't go south of the wall like anyone with the common sense of a 3-year-old would, they walked inland 150 miles on the north side where they could have been ambushed again at any time just so Jon could get a look from Throne?  That is so FUCKING STUPID.   D&D make mistakes like this all over the show and it's annoying.  If they have to dumb down characters and ignore consistent characterization just to move the plot forward then they need to come up with better plots. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by GreyBunny

[OhOkayWhat]

About the whole Littlefinger, Sansa and Boltons plot: to me, its narrative makes sense and the characterization is consistent. I think:

1- Petyr wants to manipulate at the same time the Vale, Cercei and Roose to take the North. To do that, he uses Sansa.

2- Petyr uses Sansa's wish of to have her home back to manipulate her. He also made her believe she is capable to do it with only his help.

3- Roose decision is part of a long term plan. This plan take on account the future of the Lannisters and the North houses.

Edited January 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[YaddaYadda]

5 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

Another one: Jon and his party returning from Hardhome NORTH of the wall.  Really?  After getting torn to shreds by the WW and an army of wights they didn't go south of the wall like anyone with the common sense of a 3-year-old would, they walked inland 150 miles on the north side where they could have been ambushed again at any time just so Jon could get a look from Throne?  That is so FUCKING STUPID.

They also, you know, used Stannis' ships. They should have landed at Eastwatch, then I'm guessing they weren't tired enough, or traumatized enough by what had happened that they decided to walk beyond the wall from Eastwatch to Castle Black and have a stare down with Thorne, and then pray to all the Gods that his hateful ass would open the gate.

I would have rather they kept the fake Arya plot in than turn it over to Sansa. I would have liked for her to remain in the Vale, but also deciding that she needs to help take Winterfell back because the North is starting to regroup again and the long night and they need to get rid of the Boltons, and them reuniting after the battle as opposed to having her lie over and over, and playing up the whole I'm so annoyed with you because you don't know Ramsay, and let me lie to you about the Blackfish and how the army of the Vale is at Moat Cailin, ready to help.

I am not down at all with the Winterfell plot with Sansa, Arya and Bran being the one to convince Sansa that LF is playing her. She has been around him long enough to know how he operates and clearly forgot how she told Jon that only a fool would trust LF. The more "spoilers" I read about it, the more I hate it.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Characters comes off badly because they sometimes do bad things. Sometimes fans seems to have a hard time accepting their favs do bad/stupid things.

And in some cases (example:Jon and his Wight mission) fans think it is their fav doing something bad/stupid, when in fact, it is the opposite.

Reading the 12 points you mention, I see that most of them are, in my opinion, just the narrative going forward and making sense. So instead of thinking about the showrunners trying to write to upset fans, I imagine them simply writing following their own narrative plan.

I think the fans have their own headcanon for the characters, in many cases heavily influenced by the novels. And then they just extrapolate their headcanons in the show and therefore they find they do not like the plot, without noticing the character they expected to see in it, actually never existed in first place.

Exactly. The writers follow their own narrative or as D&D have said write the show that they want to watch and hope that the fans are entertained and watch. Also, these seasons are planned out way in advance so while they can make tweaks like adjust when an actress gets pregnant, but they cannot make major changes to the outlines and scripts because some subset of fans does not like a character(s) or story. 

Edited January 23, 2017 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I would have rather they kept the fake Arya plot in than turn it over to Sansa.

I wish they had not included them both: "Jeyne Poole as fake Arya" or "Sansa instead Jeyne" as plots.

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

and playing up the whole I'm so annoyed with you because you don't know Ramsay, and let me lie to you about the Blackfish and how the army of the Vale is at Moat Cailin, ready to help.

In my opinion, all this is more complex than that. Sansa, and Jon too, are trapped in the mix of their fears, doubts and certainties (or what they think is true, even if they are wrong about that). All those issues (and more) are the cause of the miscommunication and they need to communicate with each other. 

The scenes show us the human nature of the characters, and the human nature is there: within the core of their drama.

Edited January 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[YaddaYadda]

29 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

All those issues (and more) are the cause of the miscommunication and they need to communicate with each other. 

I think it's just creating angst for the sake of creating angst. It's fine to express doubt, I don't think anyone should ever follow anyone blindly into things. But D&D have done a great job at dumbing down their characters to make them fit into whatever the plot is. 

I loved the Sansa/Jon reunion, hated pretty much everything that followed.

I'm sure to be cringing if this is what airs, although "spoilers" tend to be a lot more simplistic than what we get on screen, but we will see.

IMDB has the first show scheduled for June 25th. I'm not saying mark your calendars, but I'm assuming we'll be finding out soon enough when the show is coming back.

[Statman]

On 1/17/2017 at 10:11 PM, FemmyV said:

Where. The. Fuck. Did. Cersei. Get. The. Money?

Sack.  Of.  Highgarden. 

Gold.  From.  Dorne.  After.  Sandsnakes.  Die. 

[SimoneS]

23 hours ago, Aziraphale said:

9.) Jon pledges to Dany in the dragonpit scene (everyone is surprised - even Dany who didn't actually expect it), making Cersei angry. The remaining two dragons are there. Cersei is the only one who can count and is confident that the dragons must be not as invincible as they seem, cause everyone heard Dany is supposed to have three.

This makes me think that we are losing another dragon in season eight, most likely Rhaegal. 

23 hours ago, Aziraphale said:

10.) Jon starts the boat sex (bless him). He goes to her cabin. No dialogue in the scene. 

Go Jon! It has been a long time, hit that!

23 hours ago, Aziraphale said:

10.)  Meanwhile Bran and Sam discuss the whole Jon-is-a-Targaryen thing and I assume we'll find out his true name as Jon/Dany climax, because they say the moment when Bran says his name is going to be 'weird' lmao (Okay, I want everything about this to be true so bad. I will be so entertained!)

I don't get this means about Jon's name. Does anyone have any ideas?  

Edited January 23, 2017 by SimoneS

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think it's just creating angst for the sake of creating angst. It's fine to express doubt, I don't think anyone should ever follow anyone blindly into things. But D&D have done a great job at dumbing down their characters to make them fit into whatever the plot is. 

I loved the Sansa/Jon reunion, hated pretty much everything that followed.

I disagree. Sansa has a very traumatic story. She is still dealing with that trauma, those fears, and a lot of other issues. She is feeling all those things even among people who want to protect her. And fear sometimes cause misscomunication. It is not angst for the sake of angst and it does not make her dumb. The narrative is trying to explore the human nature of Sansa.

Edited January 23, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

WOTW reports that a scene that was recently shot in Iceland was in their opinion Jon and company's arrival at Eastwatch, which again fits with what /awayforthelads (the first) claimed.

Sue the Fury from WOTW is doing a Reddit AMA tomorrow, although I doubt there will be any information on Season 7 that WOTW hasn't reported already.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Eyes High

[GreyBunny]

9 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The writers follow their own narrative or as D&D have said write the show that they want to watch and hope that the fans are entertained and watch.

It's no excuse for bad writing, sloppy characterization, and lazy plotting.

If they wanted to tell their own story then they should have written their own story from scratch instead of bastardizing someone else's material.

Edited January 23, 2017 by GreyBunny

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

It's no excuse for bad writing, sloppy characterization, and lazy plotting.

Besides the many problems with the Dorne plot in Season 5 and a few specific script mistakes that are inconsequential within the big narrative, I think it is hard to find examples of sloppy characterizations and lazy plotting in the show.

2 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

If they wanted to tell their own story then they should have written their own story from scratch instead of bastardizing someone else's material.

Anyone who makes an adaptation, chooses how close he/she wants to be to the original work. To choose to include important differences to the original work while maintaining a lot of elements from it does not mean the adaptation is necessarily a bad one as so many examples of film history show us.

Edited January 24, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

23 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 

Also, it seems that there's something in the first /awayforthelads leaks to disappoint anyone who's a fan of a particular character. Pretty much everyone comes off badly.

 

1

 

I hope that you are not serious, because you can write a plot of every season in this style. 

[nikma]

10 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I disagree. Sansa has a very traumatic story. She is still dealing with that trauma, those fears, and a lot of other issues. She is feeling all those things even among people who want to protect her. And fear sometimes cause misscomunication. It is not angst for the sake of angst and it does not make her dumb. The narrative is trying to explore the human nature of Sansa.

2

I agree. And the only reason some say it is  "angst for the sake of angst" is because GRRM didn't write it first. It makes perfect sense that the Starks after everything that have happened to them, won't be a happy family. At first, at least. That is a development that many expected in the books, and now that is happening in the show they are criticizing it. 

[OhOkayWhat]

55 minutes ago, nikma said:

I agree. And the only reason some say it is  "angst for the sake of angst" is because GRRM didn't write it first. It makes perfect sense that the Starks after everything that have happened to them, won't be a happy family. At first, at least. That is a development that many expected in the books, and now that is happening in the show they are criticizing it. 

The characters are still struggling with all the trauma. It will take them time and I think that eventually they will solve those issues.

While reading a lot of web reviews, little essays, commentaries in different boards, forums, etc, I noticed that many of those texts about the show include 4 common mistakes:

1- A big amount of bias.

2- Misuse of certain terms.

3- Unintentional misquoting.

4- Unnoticed contradictions within the essay, commentary, etc.

Those reviews apparently look like strong texts of criticism, but if we read them more carefully we will find they are not precisely that even if they include some good points too.

Edited January 24, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, nikma said:

 

I hope that you are not serious, because you can write a plot of every season in this style. 

Well, sure, every character makes mistakes in every season, but if every single character is either regressing from previous character development (Theon abandoning Yara to Euron and turning into Reek again, Jaime standing by Cersei despite growing a spine and a moral compass, Sansa getting manipulated by Littlefinger, etc.), acting like a moron despite having been previously established as highly intelligent (Tyrion, Arya, Littlefinger, etc.), or getting shuffled from point A to point B with no discernible character development while doing and saying things that are out of character (Sam leaving the Citadel because he's bored, Sandor apparently admitting he's afraid of Brienne kicking his ass, etc.), then yeah, I'd say everyone comes off badly.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Eyes High

[whateverdgaf]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Well, sure, every character makes mistakes in every season, but if every single character is either regressing from previous character development (Theon abandoning Yara to Euron and turning into Reek again, Jaime standing by Cersei despite growing a spine and a moral compass, Sansa getting manipulated by Littlefinger, etc.), acting like a moron despite having been previously established as highly intelligent (Tyrion, Arya, Littlefinger, etc.), or getting shuffled from point A to point B with no discernible character development while doing and saying things that are out of character (Sam leaving the Citadel because he's bored, Sandor apparently admitting he's afraid of Brienne kicking his ass, etc.), then yeah, I'd say everyone comes off badly.

It's important to remember that every character has their weak spots. Theon isn't going to magically be able to shake off all his trauma in one go. It's makes perfect sense for him to relapse or return back to his Reek persona in certain situations. Recovering from what happened to him is going to be a long process met with many drawbacks.

Jaime has no else to stand by but Cersei, considering the other side consists of the people who murdered his daughter and a woman descended from a Mad King and leading an army of Dothraki and Iron Born. Besides, Cersei is his sister as well as his lover. Theirs isn't a normal relationship which you can just leave. It's toxic and destructive and has become so ingrained in his identity that Jaime will obviously have difficulty getting over it. Developing morals isn't insantly going to undo a lifetime relationship.

And so much depends on the context, we don't know what else is going on. Like with Sansa and Littlefinger or Sam leaving the Citadel, if it's a case of 'I'm stuck here doing filing and there's a bunch of White Walkers just about to attack!' it stands to reason he might want to leave and do something he perceives to be useful. And  if it is a bad decision, even intelligent characters are going to slip up.

[OhOkayWhat]

35 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

It's important to remember that every character has their weak spots. Theon isn't going to magically be able to shake off all his trauma in one go. It's makes perfect sense for him to relapse or return back to his Reek persona in certain situations. Recovering from what happened to him is going to be a long process met with many drawbacks.

Jaime has no else to stand by but Cersei, considering the other side consists of the people who murdered his daughter and a woman descended from a Mad King and leading an army of Dothraki and Iron Born. Besides, Cersei is his sister as well as his lover. Theirs isn't a normal relationship which you can just leave. It's toxic and destructive and has become so ingrained in his identity that Jaime will obviously have difficulty getting over it. Developing morals isn't insantly going to undo a lifetime relationship.

And so much depends on the context, we don't know what else is going on. Like with Sansa and Littlefinger or Sam leaving the Citadel, if it's a case of 'I'm stuck here doing filing and there's a bunch of White Walkers just about to attack!' it stands to reason he might want to leave and do something he perceives to be useful. And  if it is a bad decision, even intelligent characters are going to slip up.

Very good commentary. Characters change, but it does not mean they will not fail while doing it. And as you said, we lack the context. We can take any part of the leaks and interprete it the worst way possible. But it does not mean that we know it will be shown on screen like that.

Theon is still dealing with so much stuff and he is in the middle of a sea battle, for the first time in his whole life, if I am not wrong. We do not know exactly why Jaime is doing what he is doing. Or Sandor. Or Sam. It has been established in season 6 that Littlefinger still have some influence over Sansa. And I have my doubts he is established as a highly intelligent character. And we can go reviewing each part of the leaks like this and we will see that we actually do not know the context of so many things.

Edited January 24, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[WindyNights]

On 1/23/2017 at 4:36 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

Besides the many problems with the Dorne plot in Season 5 and a few specific script mistakes that are inconsequential within the big narrative, I think it is hard to find examples of sloppy characterizations and lazy plotting in the show.

Anyone who makes an adaptation, chooses how close he/she wants to be to the original work. To choose to include important differences to the original work while maintaining a lot of elements from it does not mean the adaptation is necessarily a bad one as so many examples of film history show us.

There are a ton of plot holes, bad characterization and lazy writing in the show. 

 

20 good men

Jon's crowning scene 

Stannis and Shireen 

Jon's resurrection aka have you ever tried resurrecting someone, Melly 

Myrcella's necklace 

Ellaria's takeover of Dorne 

Olenna's takeover of the Reach 

Cersei being queen 

The Lannisters getting super buffs for their army 

Arya being knifed, falling into the water, running all over Braavos and beating the Waif 

the Hound losing his book arc. Stagnant character 

etc

[GreyBunny]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

There are a ton of plot holes, bad characterization and lazy writing in the show. 

 

20 good men

Jon's crowning scene 

Stannis and Shireen 

Jon's resurrection aka have you ever tried resurrecting someone, Melly 

Myrcella's necklace 

Ellaria's takeover of Dorne 

Olenna's takeover of the Reach 

Cersei being queen 

The Lannisters getting super buffs for their army 

Arya being knifed, falling into the water, running all over Braavos and beating the Waif 

the Hound losing his book arc. Stagnant character 

etc

Ruining Ellaria, Doreah, the Waif, the Sand Snakes, Osha...

D1: "We have this likable female character from the book, what do we do with her?"

D2: "I know, let's turn her into a mean bitch - it's not a tired trope or stereotype at all! And then let's do it to lots of other likable female characters because we're stupid and think like mouthbreathing 12-year-olds and never had a real conversation with a grown woman and don't know what to do when two women are in a scene together except to make them petty and have catfights with each other!"

D1: "Great idea!"

D2: "Oh, and don't forget Loras. Let's turn this brave, noble warrior and loving brother, son, and boyfriend into a walking regressive gay joke!"

D1: "Sounds like a plan!"

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

There are a ton of plot holes, bad characterization and lazy writing in the show. 

 

20 good men

Jon's crowning scene 

Stannis and Shireen 

Jon's resurrection aka have you ever tried resurrecting someone, Melly 

Myrcella's necklace 

Ellaria's takeover of Dorne 

Olenna's takeover of the Reach 

Cersei being queen 

The Lannisters getting super buffs for their army 

Arya being knifed, falling into the water, running all over Braavos and beating the Waif 

the Hound losing his book arc. Stagnant character 

etc

The Show-Hound cannot lose something that actually never belonged to him. Show-Hound is part of the show, and his arc is part of the show narrative. That is the reason I say he did not lose his arc. The Sandor arc we watch on screen is his arc. Also he is not a stagnant character. He is changing. But things are not easy, of course.

Arya is one of the few characters who deals with magic. Very closely. And it is not established how much time she stayed with Lady Crane.

What do you mean with "super buffs"?

We do not know if Oleanna has control over the Reach. It is not confirmed.

Maybe "Myrcella's necklace" scene contains a mistake. But if it does, it is not a big mistake, in my opinion.

Melisandre is the only person Davos knows who is able to do magic.

Jon crowning, Cercei crowning, Stannis and Shireen, Ellaria's takeover, 20 good men. You mention them as events or storylines but you do not mention what is the problem within those plots, therefore it is kinda difficult to comment about something I do not know.

Edited January 25, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[FemmyV]

On 1/22/2017 at 3:46 PM, Aziraphale said:

6.) Jon and Gendry also bond over being bastards and their fathers having been friends (Gendry doesn't mention Arya... which I find a lot weirder than Brienne not mentioning Sandor to Sansa tbh)

I will try to withhold any real judgement on this until the book comes out, and there is anything like this. In the meantime, WTFuckingF? It's hard to tell whether D and D are doing this out of negligence, or attempts to keep some small plot points - or changes from book to film - hidden so they can turn up the drama later on. Either way it's annoying. If they continue to veer away from believability as much as they have, they risk having someone come along with a more detailed remake, earlier than later.

 

On 1/22/2017 at 8:53 PM, Eyes High said:

The Tyrells reaped what they sowed, in my opinion. The Tyrells threw Margaery at the throne, figuring they could deal with Joffrey's psychopathic tendencies later. Then, when this turned out not to be the case,

Hate to say it, but, true. Going all the way back to Loras convincing Renly that he should be king, rather than Stannis. Had Loras not put all that in Renly's head, this would have been a much shorter story, though. Nonetheless, I liked Margaery and think she would have made a great Queen consort.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

The Show-Hound cannot lose something that actually never belonged to him. Show-Hound is part of the show, and his arc is part of the show narrative. That is the reason I say he did not lose his arc. The Sandor arc we watch on screen is his arc. Also he is not a stagnant character. He is changing. But things are not easy, of course.

Arya is one of the few characters who deals with magic. Very closely. And it is not established how much time she stayed with Lady Crane.

What do you mean with "super buffs"?

We do not know if Oleanna has control over the Reach. It is not confirmed.

Maybe "Myrcella's necklace" scene contains a mistake. But if it does, it is not a big mistake, in my opinion.

Melisandre is the only person Davos knows who is able to do magic.

Jon crowning, Cercei crowning, Stannis and Shireen, Ellaria's takeover, 20 good men. You mention them as events or storylines but you do not mention what is the problem within those plots, therefore it is kinda difficult to comment about something I do not know.

The Hound doesn't have an arc on the show. How is he different between season 1 and season 6? 

Arya should be dead from being knifed in the stomach. You don't survive those. Having her fall into a river would have her catch a life ending illness. 

Olenna has control over the Reach. She makes an alliance on the Reach's behalf with Ellaria and Daenerys 

Cersei says there are only two neclaces in the world like one she has. Myrcella has the other. But Joffrey gave Sansa that same necklace in season 1. Also it doesn't make sense about the SS sending a threat to kill Myrcella right before they do it 

Davos thinks Melisandre is the Mother of Demons. He hates her. It doesn't make sense for the character it just comes off as forced. Also why should he want to revive Jon and not Stannis or Shireen?

Jon's crowning doesn't make narrative sense. Was Jon's season 6 arc the arc of a man proving himself to be a king? Or at least earning his crown? He did nothing to prove himself worthy of a crown in the Battle of the Bastards. He didn't have the charisma to gather a large enough force to fight Ramsay, he didn't have the cunning to outsmart Ramsay and he didn't have the ability to control himself to not fall for Ramsay's trap. Like he lost the battle. The Vale saved him.

Ellaria's takeover doesn't make sense because she's a bastard unrelated to the Martells. She shouldn't be able to take control of Dorne. In fact, Dorne should be in a civil war over who their next leader should be same as the Reach.

Stannis and Shireen's plotline doesn't make sense because season 6  Davos notes that they're camping at the same spot Stannis did and it's where he finds Shireen's doll but it's like a couple miles away from Winterfell. Wtf. 

20 Good Men is lazy writing because it's entirely off-screen and was a device to get Stannis to burn Shireen. Not to mention that it doesn't make sense in the first place. Are you telling me that Ramsay has a crack ninja squad of 20 men who were able to navigate through an armed camp in a blizzard without any of them being caught? How? And how were they able to burn so many things? Did they bring barrels of lighter fluid with them too? It's hard to burn things in a blizzard after all.

Cersei's crowning doesn't make sense because the entire city should be revolting against her. She has no legitimacy, she just blew up their very popular High Septon and a holy place and they hate her family already.

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Davos thinks Melisandre is the Mother of Demons. He hates her. It doesn't make sense for the character it just comes off as forced. Also why should he want to revive Jon and not Stannis or Shireen?

I think this is one of those examples where you know the writers love a character. Davos is nowhere near the Jon situation at the end of the 5th book. 

[whateverdgaf]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Cersei's crowning doesn't make sense because the entire city should be revolting against her. She has no legitimacy, she just blew up their very popular High Septon and a holy place and they hate her family already.

I suppose the city is too frightened of her, if they are aware that it was her that caused the explosion. Robert didn't have the right to throne much more than Cersei either. It's all about who the most powerful person is. At that point in time, it was Cersei.

[SeanC]

Sue the Fury's Reddit AMA happened.  Obviously she wasn't handing out spoilers, but when asked about casting new characters this year, she said:

Quote

There really aren't many new characters this year, is the thing. They're winding down the show and not adding many new people. There's the usual assortment of minor roles (we've posted some of at WotW) but we're unlikely to see any more big lists.
WotW Casting tag
There was the news of Tom Hopper joining the show as the new Dickon Tarly. Jim Broadbent coming aboard was also pretty big, and there's some celebrities cameos in store.
The only other role of note I probably can't discuss in this thread since its beyond the spoiler scope, I think.

That would, I think, probably lend some credence to the leaks that they're casting Rhaegar.

Edited January 25, 2017 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Hound doesn't have an arc on the show. How is he different between season 1 and season 6? 

Arya should be dead from being knifed in the stomach. You don't survive those. Having her fall into a river would have her catch a life ending illness. 

The Hound in Season 1 is willing to do terrible things for terrible masters and not lose too much sleep over it and has a pretty cavalier attitude towards the lives of the smallfolk (something that continues through his travels with Arya). In Season 3, he mocks Beric's religious pretensions. By the end of Season 6, the Hound is so outraged at the murder of Brother Ray and his followers--a bunch of nobodies--that he seeks revenge for them. He also joins up with the people he formerly mocked; he seems to accept at last that there's a greater purpose for him, that it's not too late for him after all the terrible things he's done, and that his life isn't a waste. It's not the best character arc, but it's definitely an arc.

GRRM has committed far worse medical sins in ASOIAF than Arya not dying (*cough cough*Jaime not dying from sepsis after losing his hand*cough cough*).  Many characters bounced back in the books from injuries that would have killed them in real life. Medical accuracy has never been something GRRM's been overly concerned with. Doesn't make Arya not dying in Season 6 any less absurd, of course, but just as real world genetics don't apply in ASOIAF/GOT, neither does real world medicine. 

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think this is one of those examples where you know the writers love a character. Davos is nowhere near the Jon situation at the end of the 5th book. 

Yeah, I think D&D just love Davos and wanted to shoehorn him in there by any means necessary. Fine by me; Davos in Season 6 was a welcome counterbalance to Jon's moping and Sansa's whining. Liam Cunningham is also one of the best actors on the show, in my opinion, which is also a welcome counterbalance to some of the weaker actors in the Northern storyline (Sophie, Kit, etc.), much like Iain Glen propped up the shitty acting in the Essos storyline.

I don't mind that the writers had Davos and Melisandre getting along and put off Davos calling out Melisandre until the end of Season 6, because that scene was amazing and one of the best bits of Season 6 (in my opinion).

25 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Sue the Fury's Reddit AMA happened.  Obviously she wasn't handing out spoilers, but when asked about casting new characters this year, she said:

That would, I think, probably lend some credence to the leaks that they're casting Rhaegar.

Yes, I saw that, but aren't you missing the most important bit from Sue's AMA?

Q: What's the biggest spoiler you've heard for the upcoming season?

A: Probably ones you've already heard, unfortunately.

Womp womp!

Edited January 25, 2017 by Eyes High

[ElizaD]

I also thought of Rhaegar when I read the AMA. I can't think of any other role in the leaked outline that could be a spoiler (and yeah, that other answer seems to support the leak too). At this point only randoms like the new Lord Frey and guest stars like Maester Broadbent are getting added to the cast; even without the leak, a Rhaegar flashback would be one of the few believable and spoilery options available.

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, WindyNights said:

The Hound doesn't have an arc on the show. How is he different between season 1 and season 6? 

Arya should be dead from being knifed in the stomach. You don't survive those. Having her fall into a river would have her catch a life ending illness. 

Olenna has control over the Reach. She makes an alliance on the Reach's behalf with Ellaria and Daenerys 

Cersei says there are only two neclaces in the world like one she has. Myrcella has the other. But Joffrey gave Sansa that same necklace in season 1. Also it doesn't make sense about the SS sending a threat to kill Myrcella right before they do it 

Davos thinks Melisandre is the Mother of Demons. He hates her. It doesn't make sense for the character it just comes off as forced. Also why should he want to revive Jon and not Stannis or Shireen?

Jon's crowning doesn't make narrative sense. Was Jon's season 6 arc the arc of a man proving himself to be a king? Or at least earning his crown? He did nothing to prove himself worthy of a crown in the Battle of the Bastards. He didn't have the charisma to gather a large enough force to fight Ramsay, he didn't have the cunning to outsmart Ramsay and he didn't have the ability to control himself to not fall for Ramsay's trap. Like he lost the battle. The Vale saved him.

Ellaria's takeover doesn't make sense because she's a bastard unrelated to the Martells. She shouldn't be able to take control of Dorne. In fact, Dorne should be in a civil war over who their next leader should be same as the Reach.

Stannis and Shireen's plotline doesn't make sense because season 6  Davos notes that they're camping at the same spot Stannis did and it's where he finds Shireen's doll but it's like a couple miles away from Winterfell. Wtf. 

20 Good Men is lazy writing because it's entirely off-screen and was a device to get Stannis to burn Shireen. Not to mention that it doesn't make sense in the first place. Are you telling me that Ramsay has a crack ninja squad of 20 men who were able to navigate through an armed camp in a blizzard without any of them being caught? How? And how were they able to burn so many things? Did they bring barrels of lighter fluid with them too? It's hard to burn things in a blizzard after all.

Cersei's crowning doesn't make sense because the entire city should be revolting against her. She has no legitimacy, she just blew up their very popular High Septon and a holy place and they hate her family already.

From season 1 to season 6, Sandor actually learnt to care about people. It is of course a difficult journey with ups and downs, but he is changing and as Eyes High made me remember, maybe he is also starting to think there is a higher purpose for him, we just do not know what this purpose is about.

I do not know about medical stuff, therefore I cannot talk properly about it. But I know about the narrative of this fictional world. In this fictional world where there are some magical elements, Arya is one of the few characters who deals with magic, as I said in my previous reply. And she was blind. And now she is not. How? and more importantly: Why?. People think Faceless Men are using Death-related-magic. But what if Death-related-magic is also using them? 

Olenna thinks she has control over the Reach. But it seems it is actually not true.

As I said, maybe it is a mistake maybe there a very small difference between the necklaces (Joffrey's and Myrcella's) that we cannot see on screen. But even if it is a mistake, I think it is not big. About why Ellaria and the Sand Snakes sent it, maybe they wanted to force a war between Dorne and the Lannister.

I do not remember Davos calling her that. Maybe he hates her at that moment, maybe not, but perhaps he thinks she can be useful. Why not Stannis or Shireen? Davos do not even know where their bodies are.

Jon arc in season 6 is not about becoming king. It is about his resurrection and his rebirth. But he is at the same time part of the North arc. And the North lives uncertain times: Long Night is coming, Kings Landing chaos, Boltons removed from power. He is mostly elected not because his own qualities, even if he has some, it is mostly about the circunstances. It is not about what they see on him, it is about what they want to see on him. It is about them, not so much about him.

We do know so much about Dorne politics in the show. If I am not wrong I remember Ellaria saying people is not happy with some of Doran decisions, and we see that almost all his guards do not move a finger to protect him. Therefore it seems we do not know how big is the conspirancy to murder Doran and Trystane.

If I am not wrong, we do not know if Stannis was camping just a couple of miles away from Winterfell. I do not remember they mentioning that.

Maybe the writers should have omitted to say how many men the Bolton sent to create chaos and destruction among Stannis forces and I do not know much about military stuff but I think it is more or less credible that a small group of soldiers can hurt badly an already half dead army.

As Whateverdgaf said about Cercei crowning, maybe it is a matter of fear and power. Or maybe they do not even know for sure who did it. Perhaps some people are looking to use the new circunstances on their own benefit. Maybe, and it is related to many events in the last seasons as kinslaying, people not caring about proper sucessions, allies who forget their promises, Jon crowning, Euron crowning, perhaps even Ellaria new power, etc; Cercei crowning is tied to all those elements. How? I will explain myself:

I can imagine that sometimes when a huge traumatic almost-global event happens (or perhaps even with a really small event) people can embrace more the rules that always guided them, but also sometimes the opposite can happen. Or both things can happen at the same time. The war of the Five Kings, the Red Wedding, etc. not only killed thousands and thousands of people and living beings, not only we saw so much destruction in many places, I think it also changed something at the very core of the society: the belief in the strenght of the Rules.

We see this ongoing process in some scenes of season 4 with the common people. And we see how it is also present among the Lords and authorities in season 6. It is the same process. Now, what will happen when Dany invades Westeros? What will happen with the Long Night?.

Edited January 25, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[whateverdgaf]

17 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

From season 1 to season 6, Sandor actually learnt to care about people. It is of course a difficult journey with ups and downs, but he is changing and as Eyes High made me remember, maybe he is also starting to think there is a higher purpose for him, we just do not know what this purpose is about.

I do not know about medical stuff, therefore I cannot talk properly about it. But I know about the narrative of this fictional world. In this fictional world where there are just a few magical elements, Arya is one of the few characters who deals with magic, as I said in my previous reply. And she was blind. And now she is not. Why? How?. People think Faceless Men are using Death-related-magic. But what if Death-related-magic is also using them? 

Olenna thinks she has control over the Reach. But it seems it is actually not true.

As I said, maybe it is a mistake maybe there a very small difference between the necklaces (Joffrey's and Myrcella's) that we cannot see on screen. But even if it is a mistake, I think it is not big. About why Ellaria and the Sand Snakes sent it, maybe they wanted to force a war between Dorne and the Lannister.

I do not remember Davos calling her that. Maybe he hates her at that moment, maybe not, but perhaps he thinks she can be useful. Why not Stannis or Shireen? Davos do not even know where their bodies are.

Jon arc in season 6 is not about becoming king. It is about his resurrection and his rebirth. But he is at the same time part of the North arc. And the North lives uncertain times: Long Night is coming, Kings Landing chaos, Boltons removed from power. He is mostly elected not because his own qualities, even if he has some, it is mostly about the circunstances. It is not about what they see on him, it is about what they want to see on him. It is about them, not so much about him.

We do know so much about Dorne politics in the show. If I am not wrong I remember Ellaria saying people is not happy with some of Doran decisions, and we see that almost all his guards do not move a finger to protect him. Therefore it seems we do not know how big is the conspirancy to murder Doran and Trystane.

If I am not wrong, we do not know if Stannis was camping just a couple of miles away from Winterfell. I do not remember they mentioning that.

Maybe the writers should have omitted to say how many men the Bolton sent to create chaos and destruction among Stannis forces and I do not know much about military stuff but I think it is more or less credible that a small group of soldiers can hurt badly an already half dead army.

As Whateverdgaf said about Cercei crowning, maybe it is a matter of fear and power. Or maybe they do not even know for sure who did it. Perhaps some people are looking to use the new circunstances on their own benefit. Maybe, and it is related to many events in the last seasons as kinslaying, people not caring about proper sucessions, allies who forget their promises, Jon crowning, Euron crowning, perhaps even Ellaria new power, etc; Cercei crowning is tied to all those elements. How? I will explain myself:

I can imagine that sometimes when a huge traumatic almost-global event happens (or perhaps even with really small events) people can embrace more the rules that always guided them, but also sometimes the opposite can happen. Or both things can happen at the same time. The war of the Five Kings, the Red Wedding, etc. not only killed thousands and thousands of people and living beings, not only we saw so much destruction in many places, I think it also changed something at the very core of the society: the belief in the strenght of the Rules.

We see this ongoing process in some scenes of season 4 with the common people. And we see how it is also present among the Lords and authorities in season 6. It is the same process. Now, what will happen when Dany invades Westeros? What will happen with the Long Night?.

This. Especially that bit about Olenna. I mean, she is a woman, and not even a Tyrell by birth. With the Tyrells destroyed, it only makes sense that certain Reach Lords will be using the situation to their own advantage.

Something I don't understand is why people so convinced that Gendry will become Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Aside from the fact that he wasn't acknowledged and grew up as a blacksmith, why would the Stormland lords want to give up their chance of becoming Lord Paramount to kneel to a bastard from King's Landing.

[FemmyV]

9 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Cersei's crowning doesn't make sense because the entire city should be revolting against her. She has no legitimacy, she just blew up their very popular High Septon and a holy place and they hate her family already.

At the time, I wondered where the hell they got all of the courtiers in that scene when most of the nobles in King's Landing were taken out at the Sept.

35 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Something I don't understand is why people so convinced that Gendry will become Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. Aside from the fact that he wasn't acknowledged and grew up as a blacksmith, why would the Stormland lords want to give up their chance of becoming Lord Paramount to kneel to a bastard from King's Landing.

So that the show (or books) will have someone to marry Arya off to, if all that foreshadowing with Jon/Arya comes to nothing.

Edited January 25, 2017 by FemmyV

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

So that the show (or books) will have someone to marry Arya off to,....

a) I doubt Gendry/Arya as marriage will happen, at least in the show. Even if we forget about the age difference (and we should not forget it) I think first Arya will try to solve her many and gigantic inner issues. I think she will solve them, but it will take her several years, and even with all that, we do not know if she will want to marry then.

b) Besides that, the show-writers narrative decisions (example: if I am not wrong, she does not mention him even once after he is sold/kidnapped) make me to suspect Gendry will not marry Arya and his character will be used in a different way within the show narrative, even if they reunite.

Edited January 25, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[FemmyV]

5 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

a) I doubt Gendry/Arya as marriage will happen, at least in the show. Even if we forget about the age difference (and we should not forget it) I think first Arya will try to solve her many and gigantic inner issues. I think she will solve them, but it will take her several years, and even with all that, we do not know if she ....

b) Besides that, the show-writers narrative decisions (example: if I am not wrong, she does not mention him even once after he is sold/kidnapped) make me to suspect Gendry will not marry Arya and his character will be used in a different way within the show narrative, even if they reunite.

Fair enough on B, but the age thing ... People need to get over our 21st century cultural norms, and bringing them in here. By the time we get around to Season 7, Arya's approximate age will be 17. That's older than Sansa was when she was engaged to Joffrey, about the same as when she married Tyrion; same age Cersei was when she married Robert, IIRC.

 

Secondly, this business of Arya being out-of-her-mind with revenge cray. Although it would seem her actions are out of control, why is Arya considered a mental health risk for her carefully chosen targets compared to, say, Brienne, who has killed far more and far less discriminately, on the battlefield? Jaime? Loras?

Edited January 26, 2017 by FemmyV
added pic

[nikma]

On 24/01/2017 at 4:33 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

Very good commentary. Characters change, but it does not mean they will not fail while doing it. And as you said, we lack the context. We can take any part of the leaks and interprete it the worst way possible. But it does not mean that we know it will be shown on screen like that.

Theon is still dealing with so much stuff and he is in the middle of a sea battle, for the first time in his whole life, if I am not wrong. We do not know exactly why Jaime is doing what he is doing. Or Sandor. Or Sam. It has been established in season 6 that Littlefinger still have some influence over Sansa. And I have my doubts he is established as a highly intelligent character. And we can go reviewing each part of the leaks like this and we will see that we actually do not know the context of so many things.

 

Yes. We don't know the context. But if some people are already willing to reject those plot developments, even without context, then I really doubt their objectivity. 

23 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

Ruining Ellaria, Doreah, the Waif, the Sand Snakes, Osha...

 

And it is not a tired trope or stereotype at all to have good people be against revenge in a fantasy story? 

 

17 hours ago, WindyNights said:

 

Cersei's crowning doesn't make sense because the entire city should be revolting against her. She has no legitimacy, she just blew up their very popular High Septon and a holy place and they hate her family already.

 

 

Maybe in some perfect world, the common people will always revolt against the tyrant, but I know many examples in our own world, or even in my own country, where people were very apathetic about their own future. And besides, even if that kind of revolt happens it wouldn't make narrative sense to have it at the end of S6. 

 

I'm sure Cersei will spin those events. She can claim that it doesn't make sense for her to be involved, because Tommen also died there, and she would never kill her own son. You see, there are many options if you put aside your bias.

 

22 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Jon crowning, Cercei crowning, Stannis and Shireen, Ellaria's takeover, 20 good men. You mention them as events or storylines but you do not mention what is the problem within those plots, therefore it is kinda difficult to comment about something I do not know.

 

3

Some parts of this fandom became echo chambers. They repeat their opinion over and over again that it becomes like a gospel. They think that they don't need anymore even to express their opinion. They would just say those few words like "S5 is the worst thing ever! I need only one word to prove this - DORNEEE! "

Like if it is enough to just say "Dorne", "Talisa", "20 good men",... and every other argument is invalid. And if you even dare to question some developments from the books they will show you bunch of essays explaining to you how it is your fault that you are not smart enough to understand subtle nuances of AFFC and Meereen's storyline. 

Well, I disagree that some of those legitimate opinions are ultimate truths. 

Maybe some of us don't think that it is better to have Ellaria sit down and say how revenge is so horrible. Maybe some of us don't think that the only way to write a character, after she has seen her lover and father of her children brutally murdered,  is to have her say how revenge is bad. Maybe some of us think that it is better that D&D choose to SHOW a futility of revenge (spoilers for Ellaria's destiny in S7), than to have a character sit down and just tell us that. 

I think that this fandom, and especially book fandom, needs more tolerance for a different opinion. I don't think that "20 good men" was plot hole at all. Stannis in that same episode said that they were either incompetent or they conspired with the enemy. So the explanation was given. 

But the problem is that some people just want to find problems in the show, they are seeking for "plot holes". It is not like they are just enjoying the show and then they sometimes find something that they don't like. No, they start with the premise, with the idea that some development in the show is bad, and then they search for reasons. First, they form the opinion, and then, they try to find the arguments. It is hilarious and sad at the same time. 

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

a) I doubt Gendry/Arya as marriage will happen, at least in the show. Even if we forget about the age difference (and we should not forget it) I think first Arya will try to solve her many and gigantic inner issues. I think she will solve them, but it will take her several years, and even with all that, we do not know if she will want to marry then.

b) Besides that, the show-writers narrative decisions (example: if I am not wrong, she does not mention him even once after he is sold/kidnapped) make me to suspect Gendry will not marry Arya and his character will be used in a different way within the show narrative, even if they reunite.

Yeah, I don't see Gendry and Arya getting married either. If Gendry survives the fight, Daenerys might legitimize him and give him the traditional Baratheon lands as a reward, but this doesn't mean that he marries Arya. I don't see Arya marrying anyone on the show. She will probably serve her new Queen and her brother/cousin as an assassin while sticking close to her remaining siblings at Winterfell.

[GreyBunny]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:31 PM, nikma said:

And it is not a tired trope or stereotype at all to have good people be against revenge in a fantasy story?

?

Ruining Ellaria, Doreah, the Waif, the Sand Snakes, Osha:

Ellaria:
In the books - a loving mother who is afraid that the Hatfield and McCoy fighting is going to get all of her children killed.

In the show - Oberyn wants revenge for the Lannisters killing his sister and her children.  Ellaria wants revenge for Oberyn's death and kills...Oberyn's brother and nephew?  How would Oberyn feel about his mistress killing his beloved brother and nephew?  Does. Not. Make. Sense.

ETA: Yes, I know Ellaria was sick of "weak men" ruling Dorne, but killing Oberyn's brother and nephew is still stupid and still does not make sense.  

Doreah:

In the books - a pleasant and clever girl whose death was mourned by Dany and the others.

In the show - turns her into some scheming bitch who tries to steal dragons.

The Waif:

In the books - friendly with Arya, teaches her about poisons and other FM skills.  Arya and the Waif teach each other their own native languages.

In the show - a ridiculous psychobitch that for no reason bullies Arya and hunts her down like a bad impersonation of a terminator robot 

Sand Snakes:

In the books - mildly cartoonish and out for blood, but are reasonable and eventually get on board with Doran's plans to monitor the political situation in King's Landing, hunt down Myrcella's attacker, and sniff out fAegon.

In the show - "BAAAD PUSSY!"  *childish slapfights*

Osha:

In the books - gets along fine with Meera

In the show - picks on Meera, berates her about how she skins rabbits for no reason other than D&D are crap writers and can't have two women in a scene together without them arguing about something petty.

How this relates to season 7:  D&D have a pattern of making bad and ridiculous choices for characterization and plotting, especially when they re-deploy women into a different scenes and situations.  The spoilers are something to chew on and I'm willing to wait to see how it plays out, but I am not holding my breath that their writing will improve or that they'll suddenly begin to pay enough attention to prevent plot holes, inconsistencies, or to not turn good characters into crap.

Edited January 27, 2017 by GreyBunny

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Secondly, this business of Arya being out-of-her-mind with revenge cray. Although it would seem her actions are out of control, why is Arya considered a mental health risk for her carefully chosen targets compared to, say, Brienne, who has killed far more and far less discriminately, on the battlefield? Jaime? Loras?

I quoted only the second paragraph of your commentary (about the first one there are so many things to discuss), because right now I will write about it: in my opinion, Arya is not the only character who has a lot of inner issues to solve. Maybe all the characters have a lot of issues too. But I talked about her case because I was talking about Gendry and Arya, so I focused on her instead of other characters. Also because violence and death are huge themes in her storyline. And like I said in other commentary: maybe she is using Death-related-magic, but also the Death-related-magic is using her too. Even without the magic she changed a lot. The darkness is growing inside her. I remember the very strange close-up on her face after she killed Walder Frey.

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

She will probably serve her new Queen and her brother/cousin as an assassin while sticking close to her remaining siblings at Winterfell.

I think she will learn with time, to live without violence. She also will go to find what is at the West of Westeros and eventually she will return to her family.

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Opinions are like butts; everyone's got one. Please make sure that yours is stated with respect and not scorn.

The time has come to course correct back to specifically season 7 speculation in here. If anyone wants to continue the books vs. show talk in general, move over to this topic. Further posts that belong in there, not here, will be removed. 

[nikma]

My response was deleted because it violated the rules of this topic, and I really don't have the time to write that long post again. 

But I will just say this: Ellaria killed Doran because she disagreed with his entire politics, not just to avenge Oberyn. It is a very simplistic view to assume that.  And I disagree that any plot development in the show was written or will be written in S7 and S8 because D&D hate women. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by nikma

[Eyes High]

Missed this comment from Sue the Fury at WOTW from last week, in response to a poster getting mad that everyone was speculating based off the leaks "and rumours" in response to the news that David Bradley (Walder) would be in Season 7:

Quote

I like how mad some of you dudes are about the leak stuff.

It’s right. Deal with it.

So much for playing coy. On the other hand, Sue also confirmed the leaks by implication in the Reddit AMA upthread.

A Reddit user had an interesting theory about Sansa's letter to Robb supposedly being used in Season 7 to stir up conflict between Sansa and Arya. Assuming that Sansa and Arya clash in the books as well, the letter could be a substitute for what instigates the conflict. In the books, Arya could be furious over Sansa going to Cersei with information about Ned's plans (although I don't know how she would find out about that without Sansa telling her). In the show, that never happened, so this business with Sansa's letter is an improvised substitute. It could be another Robb's will situation (for those who believe that Robb's will is used to make Jon KITN in the books).

Edited January 26, 2017 by Eyes High

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

This topic is for season 7 speculation only, we've been lenient in allowing the topic to veer off at times but if mod notes are not adhered to we will have to be stricter.

Consequently, a number of posts which were still primarily discussing book Vs show have been removed.

If the majority, or entirety, of your post is not about SEASON 7, it will be removed and warnings will be issued.

[SeanC]

On 1/26/2017 at 4:28 PM, Eyes High said:

A Reddit user had an interesting theory about Sansa's letter to Robb supposedly being used in Season 7 to stir up conflict between Sansa and Arya. Assuming that Sansa and Arya clash in the books as well, the letter could be a substitute for what instigates the conflict. In the books, Arya could be furious over Sansa going to Cersei with information about Ned's plans (although I don't know how she would find out about that without Sansa telling her). In the show, that never happened, so this business with Sansa's letter is an improvised substitute. It could be another Robb's will situation (for those who believe that Robb's will is used to make Jon KITN in the books).

I'd wondered the same thing, though if that's the case, it's a pretty weak substitution on the part of the writers.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm rewatching the episodes right now, and I'm on season 2. LF was at Harrenhal for an episode when Arya was Tywin's cup bearer. and he kept looking at her, like he was trying to place her. Maybe they go down that route instead of the letters? He can just cast doubt on where the loyalties lie (both Sansa's and Arya's) and let them at it. People tend to do LF's work for him.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I'd wondered the same thing, though if that's the case, it's a pretty weak substitution on the part of the writers.

I think the letter will be just the "top of the iceberg". Maybe Petyr will use it to reactivate old issues between the sisters. We also should not forget about to the whole uncertain political environment in the North with Arya and Sansa having different opinions about it. In other words: the letter will not be the main problem between them, just a part.

It is very interesting narrative move (if the leaks are right) that the writers decided to make Lyanna Mormont to support Sansa's opinion instead Jon's. 

Edited January 28, 2017 by OhOkayWhat