Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

WOTW reports that Tom Hopper (of Black Sails) has likely been recast as Dickon Tarly, due to Freddie Stroma having work elsewhere, and that Dickon will be at the ambush.

Not that it's terribly surprising at this point, but notch another point for the leaker.

Edited November 17, 2016 by SeanC

[Edith]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

WOTW reports that Tom Hopper (of Black Sails) has likely been recast as Dickon Tarly, due to Freddie Stroma having work elsewhere, and that Dickon will be at the ambush.

Not that it's terribly surprising at this point, but notch another point for the leaker.

Drogon is one lucky Dragon! That's what I call a really fine meal...

Joke aside, I wonder how D&D are going to justify this dead. I mean Randall is ok but Dickon is a good boy or that is the way Sam think of him. Also how Jon is going to be ok with her killing the little brother of his best friend

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Joke aside, I wonder how D&D are going to justify this dead. I mean Randall is ok but Dickon is a good boy or that is the way Sam think of him.

Yeah, unless Dickon undergoes a personality transplant along with his recast, I don't know how Dany won't come out of this looking really bad. I mean, the kid is just following his father and lord into battle, I doubt he has any say in betraying the Tyrells or not bending the knee to Dany.

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Also how Jon is going to be ok with her killing the little brother of his best friend

Since Jon won't be there, and I doubt Tyrion and Varys will discuss their concerns about Dany in front of him, my guess is he won't know it was Sam's dad and brother that Dany roasted. If it's discussed in front of him at all, maybe they won't refer to the Tarlys by name and keep them as random lords of the Reach so there won't be any undue tension between Jon and Dany.

[Knuckles]

7 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

they won't refer to the Tarlys by name and keep them as random lords of the Reach

I do think Jon would ask, which lords? It would be important information...no way does Jon not find out who Dany burned.

And remember his reaction to seeing Mance burned..it does not sit well with him. He will swing the sword if he must, but not burn men.

[Eyes High]

Like Jon would give a shit about Randyll being burned alive, after what Sam told him about Randyll.

[Edith]

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Like Jon would give a shit about Randyll being burned alive, after what Sam told him about Randyll.

Which is why I only mentioned Dickon, Sam's little brother, who is (at least in the book) a good boy and in the show he wasn't shown badly either. Also according to the leak, Tyrion is horrified by Dany's actions. That's why I wonder how Jon is going to react to Dickon 

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Edith said:

Which is why I only mentioned Dickon, Sam's little brother, who is (at least in the book) a good boy and in the show he wasn't shown badly either. Also according to the leak, Tyrion is horrified by Dany's actions. That's why I wonder how Jon is going to react to Dickon 

Well, in truth, Jon has no problem working with Tormund, who massacred whole villages without compunction, and mourned Ygritte, who did the same, so he'd be rather hypocritical to get angry at Dany for executing combatants for treason.

[Edith]

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Well, in truth, Jon has no problem working with Tormund, who massacred whole villages without compunction, and mourned Ygritte, who did the same, so he'd be rather hypocritical to get angry at Dany for executing combatants for treason.

You got a point there! 

[GrailKing]

From WOTW spoilers!!!!!

Our sources reveal the three Stark siblings will reunite —That is: Sansa, Arya and Bran. Just as I’m sure we’re all itching to witness, it will all be quite happy and emotional… For a while. There will be conflict between Sansa and Arya. Their life experiences have been poles apart since they last saw each other, and sharing them would help them sympathize and understand each other… Yet they won’t, at least not initially. Upon noticing this sisterly split, Littlefinger will jump at the chance to take advantage.

Last of all, I am enormously happy to report that Watchers on the Wall can put a certain “theory” to bed. If any in our readership believed a certain insistent rumor, the following may be a relief to hear: Sansa will NOT be (or get) pregnant in season seven.

[SeanC]

WOTW latest:

- There will be a big sequence with 300 wights filmed at Wolf Hill, and this will take three weeks to film.

- They confirm the by now fairly obvious conclusion that Jorah will go to Oldtown for a cure and meet Sam, who helps him because he's Jeor's son.

- They confirm that the three living children of Ned Stark will reunite, and that there will be conflict between Sansa and Arya, fanned by Littlefinger.  I'm not sure if, by implication, the site is confirming that Jon doesn't reunite with Arya or Bran, but you can read it that way.

- They state that the persistent Sansa pregnancy rumours are not true.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

WOTW latest:

- There will be a big sequence with 300 wights filmed at Wolf Hill, and this will take three weeks to film.

- They confirm the by now fairly obvious conclusion that Jorah will go to Oldtown for a cure and meet Sam, who helps him because he's Jeor's son.

- They confirm that the three living children of Ned Stark will reunite, and that there will be conflict between Sansa and Arya, fanned by Littlefinger.  I'm not sure if, by implication, the site is confirming that Jon doesn't reunite with Arya or Bran, but you can read it that way.

- They state that the persistent Sansa pregnancy rumours are not true.

I at least hid mine. :)

[GrailKing]

politicking Vs swift Stark justice and LF will use that nicely, hopefully it won't last more than 3 episodes.

[Knuckles]

If anyone could help, I would be grateful. I have been scrolling thru these posts, but I can't find info on Varys. When last seen he was with Olenna and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in Dorne. Does he meet Dany when she lands at Dragonstone? Of hook up with her later? In fact, if anyone can point me to a timeline of Dany's fleet vs Euron it would help. 

Yes, I am a GOT addict, and I need help. I seem to not be able to locate the initial info on what happens with the Iron Islanders and how the Dorne crew gets taken down. 

Many, many thanks.

[GrailKing]

8 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

If anyone could help, I would be grateful. I have been scrolling thru these posts, but I can't find info on Varys. When last seen he was with Olenna and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in Dorne. Does he meet Dany when she lands at Dragonstone? Of hook up with her later? In fact, if anyone can point me to a timeline of Dany's fleet vs Euron it would help. 

Yes, I am a GOT addict, and I need help. I seem to not be able to locate the initial info on what happens with the Iron Islanders and how the Dorne crew gets taken down. 

Many, many thanks.

There are pictures of them together do a search.

http://www.storypick.com/game-of-thrones-spoilers/

Edited November 18, 2016 by GrailKing

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

WOTW latest:

- There will be a big sequence with 300 wights filmed at Wolf Hill, and this will take three weeks to film.

- They confirm the by now fairly obvious conclusion that Jorah will go to Oldtown for a cure and meet Sam, who helps him because he's Jeor's son.

- They confirm that the three living children of Ned Stark will reunite, and that there will be conflict between Sansa and Arya, fanned by Littlefinger.  I'm not sure if, by implication, the site is confirming that Jon doesn't reunite with Arya or Bran, but you can read it that way.

- They state that the persistent Sansa pregnancy rumours are not true.

And so the initial leaks get more and more confirmed. Details can still be wrong and things can be missing, but the big picture seems to work out.

In the comments, Luka Nieto also specified that the Sansa/Arya conflict hinges on different political views. In this light, it may be important that Jon named Sansa as boss in his absence. I wonder how Bran's arrival will mix that up.

 

18 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

If anyone could help, I would be grateful. I have been scrolling thru these posts, but I can't find info on Varys. When last seen he was with Olenna and Ellaria and the Sand Snakes in Dorne. Does he meet Dany when she lands at Dragonstone? Of hook up with her later? In fact, if anyone can point me to a timeline of Dany's fleet vs Euron it would help. 

Yes, I am a GOT addict, and I need help. I seem to not be able to locate the initial info on what happens with the Iron Islanders and how the Dorne crew gets taken down. 

Many, many thanks.

Some info may be found here:  https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/57w3yw/my_awayforthelads_season_7_spoiler_timeline/

Edited November 18, 2016 by Wouter

[Knuckles]

Many thanks to Grailking and Wouter...I am trying to catch up. Again, my thanks.

[anamika]

So the North plot is more or less confirmed. Sans the letter part. I am glad that Jon has escaped Sansa's orbit of suckiness and is not involved in Starkbowl. We are probably going to get lots of arguments between the sisters. I hope Sophie Turner improves her line delivery - if we get more of her petulant ' I KNOW more THAN you ARYA'  tone I am going to be sitting there wishing for Arya to stick Needle into Sansa and end it.  And I am going to hope that they don't frame it as Arya - wrong and Sansa - right as they did with Jon-Sansa last season. And lol! Poor LF! What an ignominious end for this character. But show LF is already like 50% stupider than his book version so maybe it's fitting that he gets taken down like this.

No info on Bran. I wonder if they will give the character anything to do (Other than figure out Jon's parentage) while the sisters fight about ruling. He is, after all, the rightful lord of Winterfell and has actual ruling experience of Winterfell while Robb was in the south. But I am sure all that will be ignored on the show.

Edited November 19, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

So the North plot is more or less confirmed. Sans the letter part. I am glad that Jon has escaped Sansa's orbit of suckiness and is not involved in Starkbowl. We are probably going to get lots of arguments between the sisters. I hope Sophie Turner improves her line delivery - if we get more of her petulant ' I KNOW more THAN you ARYA'  tone I am going to be sitting there wishing for Arya to stick Needle into Sansa and end it.  And I am going to hope that they don't frame it as Arya - wrong and Sansa - right as they did with Jon-Sansa last season. And lol! Poor LF! What an ignominious end for this character. But show LF is already like 50% stupider than his book version so maybe it's fitting that he gets taken down like this.

No info on Bran. I wonder if they will give the character anything to do (Other than figure out Jon's parentage) while the sisters fight about ruling. He is, after all, the rightful lord of Winterfell and has actual ruling experience of Winterfell while Robb was in the south. But I am sure all that will be ignored on the show.

Awayforthelads said that Sansa realizes that LF is a poison in their midst "with help from Bran" but didn't specify what kind of help it would be. He also said that Arya executes LF with the same Valyrian steel dagger used in the attempt on Bran's life (i.e. LF's dagger), not Needle.

Putting together those two pieces of information--Bran helping Sansa realize something about LF and Arya using an execution weapon other than Needle--I wonder whether Bran learns some information via his visions about LF's past shady deeds, such as lying to Catelyn about the dagger belonging to Tyrion (which led Cat to believe that Tyrion was guilty and led her in turn to kidnapping Tyrion), that he imparts to Sansa and which convinces her once and for all that LF needs to go.

It also seems according to Awayforthelads that Bran will learn very late in the season of Jon being legitimate via a vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding, although it's not clear whether he does this working with Sam or comes to the same conclusion that Sam does independently. Awayforthelads said that Sam leaves for Winterfell with Gilly in Episode 5 and also said that Sam "much later" realizes the significance of Gilly talking about seeing "Ragger" in the annulment records.

All in all, according to the leaker Bran's up to the following in Season 7:

1. Episode 1: Meets with NW, stares meaningfully at the Wall as if he knows it's going to come down.

2. Episode 3: Arrives at Winterfell, left there by Meera who chooses to go back to her family home.

3. Episodes 4-7: Bit of a blank here. At some point before the finale, Bran helps Sansa realize that LF is bad news.

4. Episode 7: Bran realizes that Jon is the legitimate heir. (He might also be present when LF is executed, it's not specified either way.)

4chan dude claimed that Bran sends a flock of ravens to Eastwatch but never explained when or why he does this.

[GreyBunny]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sam "much later" realizes the significance of Gilly talking about seeing "Ragger" in the annulment records.

So, instead of just taking a second wife he annuls (divorces, really) Elia and the kids he already has?  That makes it even worse.  Even if running away with Lyanna was him actually rescuing her from being punished by Aerys for being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, that still makes him a supreme crapweasel.  I hope that's a show-only invention and not part of the books.

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

  I hope that's a show-only invention and not part of the books.

I think that's a show-only invention. There's no way Rhaegar annuls his wedding, considering he has two children by Elia.  Jon getting named Aegon is also a show only invention if true. It's like Rhaegar's other children does not exist on the show.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Putting together those two pieces of information--Bran helping Sansa realize something about LF and Arya using an execution weapon other than Needle--I wonder whether Bran learns some information via his visions about LF's past shady deeds, such as lying to Catelyn about the dagger belonging to Tyrion (which led Cat to believe that Tyrion was guilty and led her in turn to kidnapping Tyrion), that he imparts to Sansa and which convinces her once and for all that LF needs to go.

Yeah,  Bran probably downloads a LF/dagger file from the weirnet and shows it to Sansa towards the end. 

I think we have pretty much got the entire season and most of the character story arcs figured out. Man, that was a bad leak. How did HBO/GOT folks get to be this bad at protecting scripts after all the precautions they take? I think some heads are going to roll!

I do feel for the show runners. It must not be pleasant to see their scripts dissected and discussed 8 months before the show has even aired.

[GreyBunny]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon getting named Aegon is also a show only invention if true. It's like Rhaegar's other children does not exist on the show.

That is so stupid because Rhaegar's children are talked about by name in at least one TV episode ("And Now His Watch Has Ended.") So they're allegedly going to give Jon the same name as his dead half-brother? So dumb.

House Clegane was built upon dead children. I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne.

http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=7911

[WindyNights]

58 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

That is so stupid because Rhaegar's children are talked about by name in at least one TV episode ("And Now His Watch Has Ended.") So they're allegedly going to give Jon the same name as his dead half-brother? So dumb.

 

http://transcripts.foreverdreaming.org/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=7911

To be fair, that's how the Romans did things too. Julia the Elder and Julia the Younger

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

All in all, according to the leaker Bran's up to the following in Season 7:

1. Episode 1: Meets with NW, stares meaningfully at the Wall as if he knows it's going to come down.

2. Episode 3: Arrives at Winterfell, left there by Meera who chooses to go back to her family home.

3. Episodes 4-7: Bit of a blank here. At some point before the finale, Bran helps Sansa realize that LF is bad news.

4. Episode 7: Bran realizes that Jon is the legitimate heir. (He might also be present when LF is executed, it's not specified either way.)

4chan dude claimed that Bran sends a flock of ravens to Eastwatch but never explained when or why he does this.

I've been wondering whether Bran uses some form of communication to warn Dany that Jon and co.'s mission is endangered, because that's the only explanation I can think of for how she'd know that (and where to find them).

[aradia22]

So I don't watch Game of Thrones but I know a fair bit about what's happened so far on the show. I just know it's the kind of thing that would bug me if I had to wait to find out what happened while characters I liked were suffering or dying all over the place. Basically, I'm just popping in here to see if there are any credible theories on Khal Drogo returning. 

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, anamika said:

 And lol! Poor LF! What an ignominious end for this character. But show LF is already like 50% stupider than his book version so maybe it's fitting that he gets taken down like this.

 

Book LF also has always been likely to go down due to Sansa; her POV is very much tied to him and given that he is behind a lot of her misery, the moment when she turns on him is inevitable.

How would you expect LF to be taken down, in the books?

Edited November 19, 2016 by Wouter

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Awayforthelads said that Sansa realizes that LF is a poison in their midst "with help from Bran" but didn't specify what kind of help it would be. He also said that Arya executes LF with the same Valyrian steel dagger used in the attempt on Bran's life (i.e. LF's dagger), not Needle.

Putting together those two pieces of information--Bran helping Sansa realize something about LF and Arya using an execution weapon other than Needle--I wonder whether Bran learns some information via his visions about LF's past shady deeds, such as lying to Catelyn about the dagger belonging to Tyrion (which led Cat to believe that Tyrion was guilty and led her in turn to kidnapping Tyrion), that he imparts to Sansa and which convinces her once and for all that LF needs to go.

It also seems according to Awayforthelads that Bran will learn very late in the season of Jon being legitimate via a vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna's wedding, although it's not clear whether he does this working with Sam or comes to the same conclusion that Sam does independently. Awayforthelads said that Sam leaves for Winterfell with Gilly in Episode 5 and also said that Sam "much later" realizes the significance of Gilly talking about seeing "Ragger" in the annulment records.

All in all, according to the leaker Bran's up to the following in Season 7:

1. Episode 1: Meets with NW, stares meaningfully at the Wall as if he knows it's going to come down.

2. Episode 3: Arrives at Winterfell, left there by Meera who chooses to go back to her family home.

3. Episodes 4-7: Bit of a blank here. At some point before the finale, Bran helps Sansa realize that LF is bad news.

I'm hoping that the reason Meera is leaving is because she needs to fill her father in on what happened. Maybe she tells Howland what happened, Bran's vision, Jon being named KitN. 

Plus how difficult is it really for Bran to put two and two together and figure out that Rhaegar is Jon's biological father? His ass was in the crypts with Osha on the show. Between "This is my aunt Lyanna, she was kidnapped by Prince Rhaegar. Robert started a war to get her back" and "If Robert finds out, he's going to kill him, you have to protect him, Ned, promise me", it doesn't take a vision or any kind of math for Bran to know exactly who Jon is. 

I'm going to be so upset if they drag this out.

As far as the whole Rhaegar getting an annulment on his marriage with Ellia, that would be such a douche move, especially since the show never presented him in a that kind of light whenever his name was brought up in conversations. 

And I have no words for Sansa. She goes from no one can trust LF to this? What I'm getting is that the writers have nothing for her to do, so it's her believing LF, arguing with Arya until Bran makes her see the light. Maybe Sansa is the one who should kill LF, do her own dirty work. I'm already so annoyed with this plot.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I've been wondering whether Bran uses some form of communication to warn Dany that Jon and co.'s mission is endangered, because that's the only explanation I can think of for how she'd know that (and where to find them).

He could warg someone and warn her, if he can long distance warg. I've been wondering if Rhaegal won't freak out and take off if Jon is in imminent danger since it seems like they might have bonded. 

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

So, instead of just taking a second wife he annuls (divorces, really) Elia and the kids he already has?  That makes it even worse.  Even if running away with Lyanna was him actually rescuing her from being punished by Aerys for being the Knight of the Laughing Tree, that still makes him a supreme crapweasel.  I hope that's a show-only invention and not part of the books.

I very much doubt it's part of the books. It seems like a TV shortcut taken because they don't want to do the reveal the way it's done in the books (much like what I suspect they did by cutting Robb's will and getting to Jon as KITN another way).

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I've been wondering whether Bran uses some form of communication to warn Dany that Jon and co.'s mission is endangered, because that's the only explanation I can think of for how she'd know that (and where to find them).

I had assumed Dany was going to have a sudden crisis of conscience realizing that she's allowed Jon and Jorah to go on what amounts to a suicide mission and impulsively resolves to bail them out. If it fits the GOT battle pattern, though, Dany's last-minute save is going to come as a surprise with no prior explanation.

49 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Book LF also has always been likely to go down due to Sansa; het POV is very much tied to him and given that he is behind a lot of her misery, the moment when she turns on him is inevitable.

How would you expect LF to be taken down, in the books?

It was believed among a number of fans that Sansa in Season 7 would learn about LF's past treachery towards her family and would decide to have him executed, and it seems from Awayforthelads' spoilers that that's just what happens. I don't understand what all the uproar over that part of the spoilers is about, apart from Sansa letting Arya execute LF for her (and Arya being coopted by Sansa's storyline).

It also seems, reading between the WOTW spoiler lines, as if Arya and Sansa eventually talk and sort out their baggage, to which I say Hallelujah.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

Book LF also has always been likely to go down due to Sansa; het POV is very much tied to him and given that he is behind a lot of her misery, the moment when she turns on him is inevitable.

How would you expect LF to be taken down, in the books?

Definitely not by Bran communicating to Sansa the details of LF treachery and then Arya executing him with that dagger. As you said, LF is tied to Sansa's character. Why in the world would Arya turn up to kill him. If we do get Arya Vs Sansa in the books, it may happen in the Vale as Arya passes through the RL before heading North.  Maybe Arya even lets Sansa know that LF is not good news. But Arya is not going to kill LF. And I don't think Bran can talk to Sansa either considering she is the Stark with the least connection to Stark magic.

Plus, now LF is reduced to pitting the sisters against each other? To what end?  LF instigating Jon Vs Sansa made sense but Sansa Vs Arya? Why is he still sticking around the North waiting for Sansa to execute him? And his end comes about because Bran tells Sansa about the dagger and then Sansa orders Arya to kill LF? I am not impressed. But I guess with only 6 episodes left it provides a quick ending to the LF story.

So, I am not questioning the fact that Sansa takes down LF. That's a given. I am questioning the manner in which it happens. I still think that Sansa's wake up call about LF in the books happens when Sweet Robin dies. At the end of book one she understands Lannister treachery when Ned loses his head partly due to her own actions. Now she is involved in SR's slow poisoning.  When her cousin dies, she will probably understand the results of being entangled in LF's games and decide to use the Lords of the Vale to bring him down. That would show her growth as a player - some introspection showing her what she's done and become. Not Bran or the Hound telling her about LF's past activities, which she already knows plenty about.

Edited November 19, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Definitely not by Bran communicating to Sansa the details of LF treachery and then Arya executing him with that dagger. As you said, LF is tied to Sansa's character. Why in the world would Arya turn up to kill him. If we do get Arya Vs Sansa in the books, it may happen in the Vale as Arya passes through the RL before heading North.  Maybe Arya even lets Sansa know that LF is not good news. But Arya is not going to kill LF.

If Arya gets involved in the Vale story in the books, why would she not kill Littlefinger?  She's not just going to pop in, say hi to her sister, and then leave.  She'd presumably be there to play a part in whatever the resolution is.  And, people fantasizing about Sansa shoving him through the Moon Door aside (ignoring that the Eyrie is closed; it's astounding how many theorists overlook this or try to write around it), I personally doubt this ends with Sansa kill Littlefinger with her own hands.  Whether it's him getting a Stark-style execution, getting assassinated, or whatever, it could be any number of things.

Quote

And I don't think Bran can talk to Sansa either considering she is the Stark with the least connection to Stark magic.

Bran in the books was able to talk to Theon, who has no connection to magic at all, that we're aware of.  The powers of a greenseer would be pretty limited if they couldn't interact with anybody except other powerful wargs (though Arya, in the show, isn't a warg anyway).

Quote

Plus, now LF is reduced to pitting the sisters against each other? To what end?  LF instigating Jon Vs Sansa made sense but Sansa Vs Arya? Why is he still sticking around the North waiting for Sansa to execute him? 

To get Sansa on his side so that that they can rule Da Norf, and then everything else.  What else would he be doing, since he's placed all his eggs in this particular basket?

Edited November 19, 2016 by SeanC

[Brn2bwild]

On 11/15/2016 at 5:29 PM, GreyBunny said:

I think so too.  In the show his resurrection didn't seem to change him other than he's more pouty than usual.  In the books no matter how he's brought back to life it's going to cost him something, and whatever that cost is, I think it would preclude him from living happily (or even mopily) ever after with a wife and kids running around. 

As for the valonqar, I think it's Jaime.  Mundane for a lot of book readers but a big surprise for Cersei and she's the primary person GRRM needs to fool.

I think that's the reason Jon and Dany have sex... so Dany can ultimately give birth to a Starkling.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

If Arya gets involved in the Vale story in the books, why would she not kill Littlefinger?  She's not just going to pop in, say hi to her sister, and then leave.  She'd presumably be there to play a part in whatever the resolution is.  And, people fantasizing about Sansa shoving him through the Moon Door aside (ignoring that the Eyrie is closed; it's astounding how many theorists overlook this or try to write around it), I personally doubt this ends with Sansa kill Littlefinger with her own hands.  Whether it's him getting a Stark-style execution, getting assassinated, or whatever, it could be any number of things.

So Arya's story once she gets to Westeros is to resolve the Sansa-LF plot and kill LF? And this is presumably after she possibly deals with whatever is happening in the RL with LSH and the brotherhood and her reuniting with Nymeria and wolf pack? Or does she straightaway go to the Vale from Braavos?

I don't see the issue with Arya popping into the Vale, having a little discussion with Sansa and leaving. If Sansa is too enmeshed in the LF plot to make her queen, maybe she would not want to leave with Arya. Maybe she is married to Harry the Heir by then and poor SR is dead. Maybe Arya tries to convince Sansa to leave with her and she refuses? Who knows. I just don't think Arya is going to be the one to do LF in. LF is probably going to last a while in the books and Arya will have more important things to do towards the end than execute LF.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Bran in the books was able to talk to Theon, who has no connection to magic at all, that we're aware of.  The powers of a greenseer would be pretty limited if they couldn't interact with anybody except other powerful wargs (though Arya, in the show, isn't a warg anyway).

Yes, through the WF Godswood. How does the Vale Godswood compare to that? You think Bran is going to talk to Sansa through that scanty Vale Godswood with it's lack of weirwoods? 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

To get Sansa on his side so that that they can rule Da Norf, and then everything else.  What else would he be doing, since he's placed all his eggs in this particular basket?

He already has Sansa on his side. That's why he's presumably hanging around and Sansa has not had him executed. He can also always go back to the Vale since Sweet Robin and the Vale army is presumably still under his control. It's not like Jaime is going to attack the Vale considering Jaime has his hands full with attacking other castles.

I can understand pushing Sansa against Jon and even against Bran, the rightful heir to WF. What does Sansa having a squabble with Arya get him? Unless Arya is pushing for Sansa to get rid of LF and she refuses.

Although this from WoTW

Quote

 Arya always had a more rigid moral code, and though the Faceless Men tried to stifle it, instead they strengthened it; Meanwhile, Sansa has learnt to be more pragmatic —The treacheries of the court and Littlefinger’s realpolitik lessons left their mark on her

is more or less Jon Vs Sansa take 2.  This is what we would have got if Jon stays in WF. Replace Jon with Arya and now we have the one Stark with the rigid moral code and Sansa being all doing whatever it takes. Maybe Sansa tries to change what Jon was doing and Arya opposes it.

Anyways, it will be good to see Sansa and Arya duke it out on this issue of morality considering that one of the reasons for them clashing with each other way back in KL was Arya chosing to save a butcher's boy from Joffrey and Sansa willing to overlook his cruelties to become queen. The show does seem to be dealing with the fact that these guys did not always get along. So there's that.

Edited November 19, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So Arya's story once she gets to Westeros is to resolve the Sansa-LF plot and kill LF? And this is presumably after she possibly deals with whatever is happening in the RL with LSH and the brotherhood and her reuniting with Nymeria and wolf pack? Or does she straightaway go to the Vale from Braavos?I don't see the issue with Arya popping into the Vale, having a little discussion with Sansa and leaving. If Sansa is too enmeshed in the LF plot to make her queen, maybe she would not want to leave with Arya. Maybe she is married to Harry the Heir by then and poor SR is dead. Maybe Arya tries to convince Sansa to leave with her and she refuses? Who knows. I just don't think Arya is going to be the one to do LF in. LF is probably going to last a while in the books and Arya will have more important things to do towards the end than execute LF.

I have no idea how the story will be ordered (frankly, all the story points GRRM seems to be set to hit seem hard to fit into the span he claims they will), just that I don't think it's unreasonable as a book story point, since GRRM has talked about Sansa and Arya's relationship as something that looks to be a meaningful dramatic issue, and that, to me, indicates their reunion will be a significant moment, not a cameo.

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Yes, through the WF Godswood. How does the Vale Godswood compare to that? You think Bran is going to talk to Sansa through that scanty Vale Godswood with it's lack of weirwoods? 

I was talking about in general/the show, but regardless, in the books it's the Eyrie godswood that doesn't have a heart tree.  We don't know about the Gates of the Moon.

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He already has Sansa on his side. That's why he's presumably hanging around and Sansa has not had him executed.

Sansa hasn't executed him, but she hasn't joined him either.  At the end of Season 6 she turned him down.

Edited November 19, 2016 by SeanC

[Wouter]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

Definitely not by Bran communicating to Sansa the details of LF treachery and then Arya executing him with that dagger. As you said, LF is tied to Sansa's character. Why in the world would Arya turn up to kill him. If we do get Arya Vs Sansa in the books, it may happen in the Vale as Arya passes through the RL before heading North.  Maybe Arya even lets Sansa know that LF is not good news. But Arya is not going to kill LF. And I don't think Bran can talk to Sansa either considering she is the Stark with the least connection to Stark magic.

[...]Not Bran or the Hound telling her about LF's past activities, which she already knows plenty about.

If Arya passes through the Vale in the books (which is a possibility; it's close to Braavos and GRRM hinted they will have to work out their issues), she is likely to become embroiled in the Sansa/LF situation.

Sansa is presumably supposed to become a "player", but before that happens LF will have a serious hold on her. Arya, once she escapes the Faceless Men (or is allowed to leave), will be a super assassin looking to use her skills. And a personal, stealthy assassin happens to be an ideal tool for a player who wants to remove a rival while keeping clean hands. And as it happens, Sansa has access to a rare and expensive poison: the strangler. Arya knows how to use it...

Arya's skills would be of less use against the Others; Jon with his armour and sword is the man for that kind of thing, or Dany with her dragons.

And while she could look to finish the rest of her list, in the books it seems Stoneheart will take care of the Freys and Cersei also is unlikely to die by her hand.

Sansa does not know at least one crucial point about LF's past activities: his role in the dead of her father. But this has been discussed. This will not be a "faits divers" for Sansa...

Bran is the likely source for that. Long term, he may not even need a weirwoord to "talk" to people, and as Sean said we don't know if there is one or not at the Gates of the Moon.

On one thing I agree: it may not be the dagger, as LF wasn't involved in the assassination attempt of Bran. On the other hand, he did lie about the owner of the dagger to Catelyn, something else that Sansa doesn't know about.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Wouter

[GreyBunny]

13 hours ago, WindyNights said:

To be fair, that's how the Romans did things too. Julia the Elder and Julia the Younger

Rhaegar died before his kids were killed.  When he and Lyanna were discussing names did he say, "Name him [X] unless my oldest son dies, then name him Aegon"?  Sounds like a useless hassle.

[Edith]

http://lossietereinos.com/imagenes-y-videos-exclusivos-del-ejercito-lannister-en-el-rodaje-en--de-caceres/

Battle Lannister-Dany confirmed to be in episode 4  

[anamika]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

I have no idea how the story will be ordered (frankly, all the story points GRRM seems to be set to hit seem hard to fit into the span he claims they will), just that I don't think it's unreasonable as a book story point, since GRRM has talked about Sansa and Arya's relationship as something that looks to be a meaningful dramatic issue, and that, to me, indicates their reunion will be a significant moment, not a cameo.

Sure, they could have a significant moment. And even spend several chapters together in the next couple of books. Which does not imply that Arya will end up killing LF. I see LF as an endgame character for the 'game' part of the books,  who gets taken down at the very end by Sansa in some manner. I see LF lasting longer than Cersei for instance. The show seems to be doing the opposite. Which makes sense considering that removing the Vale plot in it's entirety has basically made LF insignificant as a character. There's nothing more he can do on the show and hence his early exit.

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

I was talking about in general/the show, but regardless, in the books it's the Eyrie godswood that doesn't have a heart tree.  We don't know about the Gates of the Moon.

In the books, the only godswood mentioned in the Vale is the one in the Eyrie where it's hard for weirwood to grow. If there was one in the Gate of the Moon, I think it would have been mentioned, if it was going to play a significant role in the plot.

Plus, even using the powerful WF godswood, the only thing Bran has been able to do by way of communication to Theon is whisper his name or use ravens to shriek out words. Unlike how he is able to communicate with Jon through his wolf dreams. Expecting him to explain the finer details of LF's treachery to Sansa by the weirwood-less Vale godswood and ravens is rather far fetched.

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa hasn't executed him, but she hasn't joined him either.  At the end of Season 6 she turned him down.

So he's expecting her to join with him because she fights with Arya? Okay. I hope there is more to it than this that we are missing in the spoilers.

Edited November 20, 2016 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, Edith said:

http://lossietereinos.com/imagenes-y-videos-exclusivos-del-ejercito-lannister-en-el-rodaje-en--de-caceres/

Battle Lannister-Dany confirmed to be in episode 4  

I love how this person was basically hiding in the bushes to take the video! James Bond has nothing on these set stalkers!

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

So he's expecting her to join with him because she fights with Arya? 

Turning Sansa wholly against her family is a vital part of her siding with him.

[GreyBunny]

So Arya is going to kill him after Sansa condemns him to death?  So much for "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword."

[SeanC]

19 minutes ago, GreyBunny said:

So Arya is going to kill him after Sansa condemns him to death?  So much for "he who passes the sentence should swing the sword."

That bridge was already crossed when the Starks fed Ramsay to the hounds instead of giving him a standard execution with a single sword blow.

Though in truth, "he who passes sentence should swing the sword" is premised on the idea that the person passing sentence is a man with skill at arms.

[Avaleigh]

I'm very surprised to read that it's looking like Meera won't stay at Winterfell with Bran and don't really know what to make of that. I guess it could be a way to introduce Howland Reed but it seems like it would make more sense for Howland to come to Winterfell if he has to be introduced into the story. 

[SimoneS]

19 hours ago, anamika said:

So he's expecting her to join with him because she fights with Arya? Okay. I hope there is more to it than this that we are missing in the spoilers.

Why? Last season, LF expected Sansa to leave her brother's protection and be disloyal to Jon because she was the legitimate Stark. He believed that she would actually marry him and share his ambition to sit on the Iron Throne The man is obsessed and deluded. He has no concept of love or family so of course, any disagreement among the Stark sibling will lead him to conclude that a major betrayal is possible. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Why? Last season, LF expected Sansa to leave her brother's protection and be disloyal to Jon because she was the legitimate Stark. He believed that she would actually marry him and share his ambition to sit on the Iron Throne The man is obsessed and deluded. He has no concept of love or family so of course, any disagreement among the Stark sibling will lead him to conclude that a major betrayal is possible. 

Like I said, it makes sense to me for LF to turn Sansa against Jon (the bastard born in the south) and Bran (the rightful heir to WF). He wants Sansa to be heir to the North - his plan in the books hinges on that. Sansa's whole value to him is that she is the last known heir to WF. That's the explanation he gives to send her North on the show as well.

So I don't think LF's motive, to start off, is to instigate a fight between them. Sansa squabbling with her younger sister is not going to give him anything. How I think it will go is that, with Jon gone and Bran trippin',  he will try to control Sansa's decisions and try to push her forward as leader of the North - as opposed to Jon and Bran. The stage is set with Jon and Sansa already disagreeing with each other in episode one about how to deal with the defeated houses. LF will exploit this. Arya will disagree with Sansa's  - in effect LF's-  'pragmatic' decisions and object. LF then sees Arya as an obstacle and tries to get her out of the way by then playing the sisters against each other.

Basically: 

Littlefinger @ sansa: now that jon’s gone theres no one to stop us from taking over

Arya in episode 4:

http://gendrie.tumblr.com/post/152041120435/littlefinger-sansa-now-that-jons-gone-theres

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

That bridge was already crossed when Sansa fed Ramsay to the hounds instead of giving him a standard execution with a single sword blow.

Do we know that Jon was in on his sister's plan to feed Ramsay to the dogs? Does not seem like something he would condone...

Edited November 21, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

35 minutes ago, anamika said:

Do we know that Jon was in on his sister's plan to feed Ramsay to the dogs? Does not seem like something he would condone...

I don't see how he could reasonably have been ignorant of it, seeing as his men had custody of Ramsay, and, from Sansa demanding to know where he was, presumably they, on her direction, moved him into the dog kennel where he was devoured some hours later.  Nor does his behaviour when we see him next suggest he had any discomfort over it.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm very surprised to read that it's looking like Meera won't stay at Winterfell with Bran and don't really know what to make of that. I guess it could be a way to introduce Howland Reed but it seems like it would make more sense for Howland to come to Winterfell if he has to be introduced into the story. 

I'd say there are two possibilities:

1)  Either Meera is going to report back to dad and then they'll return in Season 8 with some dramatic piece of information or whatever (if Howland exists only to confirm what happened at the Tower of Joy, then he's likely superfluous with Bran's abilities and apparently Sam's detective work, but the show made a point of calling attention to his presence at the Tower of Joy, so there may yet be some other purpose).

2)  Having dragged Bran back to Winterfell where he's surrounded by other regulars, D&D seize the opportunity to get rid of a now-superfluous (in their view) castmember.

Edited November 21, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

27 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't see how he could reasonably have been ignorant of it, seeing as his men had custody of Ramsay, and, from Sansa demanding to know where he was, presumably they, on her direction, moved him into the dog kennel where he was devoured some hours later.  

I don't think Jon knowing that northern soldiers had custody of Ramsay and that Sansa asked about him implies that Jon knew that Sansa was going to feed him to the dogs. This indicates that Sansa had no control or decision making abilities in WF before Jon becomes KITN.

The Jon who stops beating Ramsay with his fists because it's not right is not going to later condone feeding a man to the dogs.

27 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Nor does his behaviour when we see him next suggest he had any discomfort over it.

It's not like season 6 Jon can do anything about it after Sansa feeds Ramsay to the dogs.

Sansa: Dammit Jon - why did you not specifically ask me about Ramsay instead of me volunteering the info

Jon: Oh sorry. Please tell me about Ramsay.

Sansa: BTW, I am sorry for not telling you about the Vale army that could have saved hundreds of lives

Jon: No probs, here's a kiss on the head.

Sansa: Hey Jon, I fed Ramsay to the dogs

Jon: Uh...Hey look I got a Ravengram from Dragonstone! Davos, let's take a trip!

Edited November 21, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

The Jon who stops beating Ramsay with his fists because it's not right is not going to later condone feeding a man to the dogs.

Jon didn't stop beating Ramsay because he thought it wasn't right, he stopped because, in the words of D.B. Weiss, "he sees his sister who suffered at the hands of this man, and he realizes that this person is not his to finish."  Which further reinforces that he wasn't ignorant of what happened afterward, he was explicitly keeping Ramsay alive so that Sansa could kill him.

The castle isn't that big, and Ramsay is their most valuable prisoner.  Even without the above interview, it would strain credulity that Sansa could have him moved to the kennels for hours in a crowded venue and somehow Jon wouldn't hear anything about it.

Edited November 21, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jon didn't stop beating Ramsay because he thought it wasn't right, he stopped because, in the words of D.B. Weiss, "he sees his sister who suffered at the hands of this man, and he realizes that this person is not his to finish."  Which further reinforces that he wasn't ignorant of what happened afterward, he was explicitly keeping Ramsay alive so that Sansa could kill him.

Well, Kit Harington stated that Jon stops because he did not think that it was the right thing to do. Anyways, even if Jon thinks that it was Sansa's right to kill him, that does not imply that he knew that feeding Ramsay to the dogs was what was going to happen. Jon allows Sansa to decide how to finish off Ramsay - this does not automatically lead to the conclusion that he knew that Sansa was going to use Ramsay's starving dogs. How would he know this?

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The castle isn't that big, and Ramsay is their most valuable prisoner.  Even without the above interview, it would strain credulity that Sansa could have him moved to the kennels for hours in a crowded venue and somehow Jon wouldn't hear anything about it.

Using this reasoning is what strains credulity. When Sansa did what she did it was dark and there was no one around when she walked away. Where did you see the crowd and bustle? It's possible that Jon was off doing something else and Sansa then went down, got Ramsay into the kennel and set the dogs on him.

Sure Jon would have known about it soon enough. But like I said, season 6 Jon just shrugs off all the stuff his sister does. Does not mean he arranged for it happen.

Edited November 21, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

Well, Kit Harington states that Jon stops because he did not think that it was the right thing to do.

The writer's interpretation is more significant than the actor's when discussing what the show is going for (though it's odd, apparently, that nobody told Harington what his motivation was supposed to be in that scene).

I very much doubt that Sansa personally carried Ramsay into the kennels and tied him up.

There's not likely to ever be a definitive word on this, since it's in the past, but per the writers, Jon handed him over to Sansa for her to execute as she saw fit.  He was moved into the dog kennels, and died some hours later (since it was dark).  There's nothing indicating that any of this was done in secret or without Jon's knowledge.

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The writer's interpretation is more significant than the actor's when discussing what the show is going for (though it's odd, apparently, that nobody told Harington what his motivation was supposed to be in that scene).

I am guessing that someone (maybe the director) told Harington what his motivation was going to be so that he knew how to play that scene.

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I very much doubt that Sansa personally carried Ramsay into the kennels and tied him up.

This is nitpicking for the sake of argument. Are you saying that before Jon became KITN,  only the bastard son of Ned has control over the WF men and that Sansa had no rights to do anything without Jon's approval? Sansa can as well go down, order the men to put Ramsay into the kennels and ask them to release the dogs.

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

There's not likely to ever be a definitive word on this, since it's in the past, but per the writers, Jon handed him over to Sansa for her to execute as she saw fit.  He was moved into the dog kennels, and died some hours later (since it was dark).  There's nothing indicating that any of this was done in secret or without Jon's knowledge.

Yes, Jon handed over Ramsay to Sansa to finish him off as she saw fit. It does not lead from there that he knew she was planning on feeding him to the dogs. From everything we know of Jon's character thus far, this is not something that he would condone. There's nothing to indicate that Sansa coordinated this with Jon.

Edited November 21, 2016 by anamika