Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Minneapple]

I'm a little disappointed that we won't be getting a full Stark sibling reunion this season if these spoilers are true. An Arya/Sansa reunion is good, but I'm annoyed if Littlefinger manages to come between the two.

Jon/Dany having sex while the Wall comes down. Oh my God. I don't even know what to do if that comes true. HEY AUNTIE DAENERYS!

[Advance35]

Of all the spoilers released so far, the one that got the biggest reaction out of me was the one for Lady Olenna.  In utter shock.  The one who really SHOULD be ruling Westeros.

I've never been attached to The Dorne (like them well enough in the books) portion of the show but I feel a little bad for them.  House Lannister has murdered and brutalized their way into power and when other Houses and People have reached a point where they are ready and willing to answer Lannister brutality in kind, Karma is quick to show up on their doorstep.

I've never been a fan of the Arya/Sansa relationship, the only part that's really registering with me is that Sansa may end up living through this season.   And it looks like it's really going to be hammered home that Sansa has NO power.  Jon chooses to allow her to voice her opinion but if he thinks she's wrong, he says no and that's it.   She's an honored guest so long as the KITN decides to allow it.  Hell I might plot with Littlefinger too.

Jon and Dany??????? LOL why not.  It'll be good for the "LOL's"

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

According to the leaker, the high-stakes scene is indeed Team Jon squabbling over what to do with Alys Karstark (the redhead played by Megan Parkinson) and the Umber heir (the 10-year-old boy). Lyanna Mormont and Sansa want to strip them of their lands and give the Karstark/Umber lands to families who were loyal to the Starks in Season 6, but Jon refuses. (This could also be easily predicted by fans.)

That was posted by somebody claiming the leaker had messaged them, wasn't it?  Not that anything in it is implausible (indeed, much of it is the most common fan speculation), but for whatever reason it struck me as odd we got these details about the scene involving Sansa and Lyanna within hours of those photos of Sophie and Bella Ramsey on set.

Though if it's true (and as I said, it's all plausible), I'm kind of surprised that the writers are putting the fan-favourite Baby Bear in Sansa's camp on that point.  Though I guess if they're going to dramatize the possibility of Sansa turning against Jon, it needs to look plausible that she'd find support.

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

This could be the campiest moment of GOT. I hope they go full romance novel and embrace the predictability of the hero and heroine getting together because they're hot and our obvious main characters. Some said Jon/Dany wouldn't happen because GRRM's above it and doesn't do tropes, but since it's looking likelier with every report, make it epic with the prettiest shots of Kit/Emilia that you can find and lots of heaving bosoms and longing looks.

Far more than any shippers, I expect the final seasons are going to annoy people with how "expected" a number of plot developments are.  Jon/Dany, if it happens, is maybe the biggest example; going to any ASOIAF message board and raise that possibility and just await all the complaints at how cliche it is.

But GRRM has never been nearly as deconstructive or trope-averse as many fans claim (indeed, a lot of the "GRRM would never do X cliche" arguments go to the point of rendering any sort of conventional narrative resolution impossible; you can't run a story solely on doing the opposite of the cliche), and there'll be grumbling when that becomes clear.

EDIT - Somebody tweeted about having seen Kit Harington at the Belfast airport, heading to London, so he's not in Spain quite yet.  J/D sex scene enthusiasts wait on tenterhooks to see whether he's sighted in Spain or not.

Edited October 18, 2016 by SeanC

[roguetamlin]

58 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Jon/Dany having sex while the Wall comes down. Oh my God. I don't even know what to do if that comes true. HEY AUNTIE DAENERYS!

I'm really REALLY HOPING they don't go there. I mean I know that Targareyans are all about the incest, but given Jon's rather conflicted feelings/history with sex it feels very out of character. I mean yes he died, but it doesn't seem to have made him more open to Auntie Sex. Daenarys would probably be fine with it, though.

Also, it feels like fan service and that would be very annoying. 

Having said that, I suspect we will get the literal "Ice and Fire" sex symbolism. It's been pretty clear from publicity since early on that Jon and Dany are a matched set of something. Blergh.

[Minneapple]

See I don't get the whole "Ice and Fire" thing with Jon and Dany. Jon is Ice and Fire all by himself. That was Rhaegar's whole plot, wasn't it? Jon is the Prince That Was Promised, his is the Song of Ice and Fire because he's a Stark and a Targaryen. But from the leaks, it appears Jon doesn't yet know about his parentage? So I imagine right after they have sex, Bran will show up and be all, "Yeah, uh. So. Rhaegar was your dad and Lyanna was your mom. Which means Daenerys here is your aunt. PS the wall has come down and the Others are on their way."

If they do go there, I think it's going to create a GIANT WANKSPLOSION. Might be fun just for that....nothing more entertaining than Internet drama.

Also I have decided I like Sophie better as a redhead. She should totally take my opinion into account and dye her hair again. 

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, roguetamlin said:

I'm really REALLY HOPING they don't go there. I mean I know that Targareyans are all about the incest, but given Jon's rather conflicted feelings/history with sex it feels very out of character. I mean yes he died, but it doesn't seem to have made him more open to Auntie Sex. Daenarys would probably be fine with it, though.

Aunt/nephew isn't considering incestuous in Westeros, even among non-Targaryens.  There are two uncle/niece marriages in the TWOIAF Stark family tree.

Though according to these spoilers, they won't know they're aunt and nephew when they knock boots anyway.

[Wouter]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

Unless this is where her book plot also ends up in TWoW. GRRM did state that Arya and Sansa have issues to resolve and maybe they do it over LF. I am still confused about the whole Jon dealing with selfish individuals bit. Maybe Jon Vs Sansa is dealt with in two episodes.

GRRM's comment does seem to hint that they are supposed to meet again, in the books (otherwise they won't be resolving, or even raising, any issues). The confrontation with LF has always seemed the main point of Sansa's book storyline to me, as his protégé she could easily be his ultimate weakness (knowing so much about him). If she turns on him, one possible weapon would be the poison that she still has (only in the books). But if she is destined to meet Arya, and to be confronted with her past, Arya could well be a murder weapon in her hands, too. Maybe she will give Arya the poison, in the books - Arya would know exactly how to use it without casting suspicion on Sansa or herself.

Interestingly, if this particular leak (or made-up story, depending) would turn out to be true or to be close to the truth, it could essentially take place in the Vale in the books. Arya would only need to go the Vale, where Sansa and LF would already be, and Bran's presence/influence could be realised through "wolf dreams" (presumably he would have no trouble reaching Arya this way, maybe Sansa as well). It would nicely explain why Jon would supposedly "miss" Arya and Bran; in the book plot they would be far apart, so the show may wish to save the impact of such meetings to the last season (as the books may leave it to the last, should that one ever be written). It would also allow the show to keep playing down some magical elements, like the wolf dream and warging going beyond Bran (books only?).

If Arya and Sansa turn on LF together in the end, it would also correspond nicely with the comments from both actresses - it would be moving, especially if there is also forgiveness involved (they have got to get those issues worked out - in the show, too).

As for Jon dealing with selfish individuals: we already know/heavily suspect that Jon won't be nailed to the ground in Winterfell (to paraphrase GRRM). He may have dealings far beyond Sansa, maybe even with people like Euron and Jaime/Cersei (who could qualify as selfish individuals, even if Jaime may turn on Cersei eventually). Of course, the showrunners wouldn't mind if people would believe they are talking about Sansa - makes the impact harder if/when she reconciles with Arya and turns on LF, especially if it isn't phoned in during the season.

Jon and Dany has always been a plot point waiting to happen, ever since the House of the Undying passage in the books (if not before). But given that they come from families that are supposed to be enemies, it is probably going to be interesting anyway.

It would not be unreasonably for Lyanna Mormont to support the position that traitors should be punished and loyal followers rewarded; she is one of those loyal followers after all (wouldn't mind a bigger castle and far richer lands, I suppose) and it suits her direct and "strict/harsh-but-fair" character that she displayed at the Stark parley.

[Wouter]

25 minutes ago, roguetamlin said:

I'm really REALLY HOPING they don't go there. I mean I know that Targareyans are all about the incest, but given Jon's rather conflicted feelings/history with sex it feels very out of character. I mean yes he died, but it doesn't seem to have made him more open to Auntie Sex. Daenarys would probably be fine with it, though.

Also, it feels like fan service and that would be very annoying.

As Sean wrote, it's pretty normal in Westeros. Tywin and Joanna Lannister (mother of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion) were also cousins.

Uniting the king of the north and the Targaryen queen is the obvious political solution if Dany is interested in keeping the huge northern territory on board, while both also are obvious heroes of books/show and both seem destined to fight the Others.

It has been kind of obvious that GRRM was going there, even though he might never arrive there (or anywhere else past "The Winds of Winter").

[roguetamlin]

Well now that I've been corrected TWICE, it doesn't make it feel any less out of character for Jon. I agree though, it's pretty clear to me that this is where things are pointing. Someone said upthread that it would be campy with the Wall collapsing sex and yes. Very Very Campy.

Edited October 18, 2016 by roguetamlin
finishing a thought

[GrailKing]

One of my main thoughts has always been that Sansa and Arya get together to foil enemies of their house they both have skills the other lack solving their sibling rivalry / feud , the two sides of the coin finally becomes one.

In book, Sansa still has a hairnet so the GOHH prophesy is still in play, we don't have that in the show; but we do have both girls with their NEEDLE. My take is Sansa's has poison in it or it's a knife but Arya may deliver the blow either to insulate Sansa or because for what ever reason Sansa can't get close enough to do the deed her self. 

[YaddaYadda]

If Dany and Jon start having the hots for each other, it doesn't seem like they have a clue that they're related to begin with. It seems like Jon is still just Jon Snow, the bastard son of Ned Stark. 

[Wouter]

21 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

One of my main thoughts has always been that Sansa and Arya get together to foil enemies of their house they both have skills the other lack solving their sibling rivalry / feud , the two sides of the coin finally becomes one.

In book, Sansa still has a hairnet so the GOHH prophesy is still in play, we don't have that in the show; but we do have both girls with their NEEDLE. My take is Sansa's has poison in it or it's a knife but Arya may deliver the blow either to insulate Sansa or because for what ever reason Sansa can't get close enough to do the deed her self. 

In the books, the main reason to let Arya carry out the murder would presumably be that Sansa can't openly kill LF (believed to be her father or her ally/protector by much of the "audience" in the Vale, depending on whether or not the Alayne disguise is still maintained at that point). With her skills, Arya would be able to make it look like a natural death or to make it a murder that Sansa would never be a suspect in (with Arya herself also never in danger of being caught). And Sansa would presumably be able to believably play the grieving daughter/protégé, at that point, to take advantage of the situation without it being obvious that she actually profits from it.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

EDIT - Somebody tweeted about having seen Kit Harington at the Belfast airport, heading to London, so he's not in Spain quite yet.  J/D sex scene enthusiasts wait on tenterhooks to see whether he's sighted in Spain or not.

Hee. Javi said that he was 99% sure that Kit would show up in Spain. 

Edited to add that Javi just posted the following series of tweets (roughly translated):
"Today I was given three different hotels where Kit is staying (who in the end is still en route) and 2 of Emilia's."

"And it's logical enough. If I were the producer I would put out more confusing information to avoid the fans."

"It's been two years since they had to change Nikolaj's hotel because the fans snuck inside to try to see him."

"The rumour is that the fans discovered his room number and managed to get as far as knocking on his door."

And then, this tweet in English:

"Yes [Kit is still in the UK], but he is coming. They shared three different hotels in Bilbao to avoid the pressure of fans."

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

If they do go there, I think it's going to create a GIANT WANKSPLOSION. Might be fun just for that....nothing more entertaining than Internet drama.

Yes. The ongoing meltdown as different portions of the leaks have been confirmed by various filming spoilers over the past few days--Jon going south, Jon meeting Theon, Dany using Dragonstone as her base of operations, Davos going south, etc.--has been extremely entertaining. And if Kit does show up in Spain after all...grab your popcorn. 

35 minutes ago, Wouter said:

In the books, the main reason to let Arya carry out the murder would presumably be that Sansa can't openly kill LF (believed to be her father or her ally/protector by much of the "audience" in the Vale, depending on whether or not the Alayne disguise is still maintained at that point). With her skills, Arya would be able to make it look like a natural death or to make it a murder that Sansa would never be a suspect in (with Arya herself also never in danger of being caught). And Sansa would presumably be able to believably play the grieving daughter/protégé, at that point, to take advantage of the situation without it being obvious that she actually profits from it.

If anything, these supposed "leaks" have piqued my curiosity as to how LF is going to go in the books, because while I wouldn't put it past D&D to write that resolution, I cannot believe the book plot shakes out anything like "LF tries to turn Arya against Sansa, fails, Sansa's eyes are opened as to LF's true nature by Bran Ex Machina, and LF is executed by Arya on Sansa's orders." 

With that said, by the time Sansa makes it to Winterfell in the books (assuming that's where she goes), she will likely have shed her Alayne persona.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

I do not get people in different forums criticizing David and Dan for Jon/Dany like it is something only they could include without noticing that if it actually happens in the show it will happen in the books. And I am one of those who always say: books are the books and the show is the show, but we are talking here about 2 of the big 3 (Dany,Jon,Tyrion), and the chances they changed their endgames is pretty low.

[amandawoods]

Per twitter, someone spotted Joe Dempsie at a hotel in Bilbao too.  Gendry in Dragonstone? 

[GrailKing]

38 minutes ago, Wouter said:

In the books, the main reason to let Arya carry out the murder would presumably be that Sansa can't openly kill LF (believed to be her father or her ally/protector by much of the "audience" in the Vale, depending on whether or not the Alayne disguise is still maintained at that point). With her skills, Arya would be able to make it look like a natural death or to make it a murder that Sansa would never be a suspect in (with Arya herself also never in danger of being caught). And Sansa would presumably be able to believably play the grieving daughter/protégé, at that point, to take advantage of the situation without it being obvious that she actually profits from it.

Well Arya needs to land in the Vale early because how I understood the Alaynne excerpts

something will go down in the Vale and Sansa is either forced to leave or is kidnapped.

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

It's insulting to all the characters involved, so I won't be shocked if it's real. 

I am curious, why is that? Even if the showrunners does not handle some characters well a few times, it is not common that it happens.

 

4 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

I hope all the new cast pairings work. Tyrion lost a lot of his luster when he was thrust into Dany's story. I don't think they've ever figured out how to balance multiple major characters outside of King's Landing, and that really only worked when they stuck to GRRM's plotting.

I disagree. Dany-Tyrion scenes worked very well. Tywin-Arya ones too. Some of the Sansa-Jon scenes also, Sandor-Arya ones is other example as is it a King Robert-Cercei scene. And I think, in all of them they did not follow GRRM writing.

Edited October 18, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GrailKing]

So far it looks like Pod is staying with Sansa ( don't remember any mention of Podrick in the South ), makes some sense if Brienne balks because it leaves Sansa vulnerable, it could also sort of put Pod as someone brave, gentle and worthy of her.

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM has a lot of tropes in the series. His beauty and beast Sansa/Sandor is all about the tropes and cliches complete with disfigured but masculine manly man (The Beast who changes because of innocent Beauty) forcing himself onto an innocent, young virginal girl who later dreams of kissing him. That sounds like an 80's bodice ripper - but that's GRRM's version of romance in the series. 

Good theme to discuss: what is exactly GRRM's idea of romance? In any case, I am glad the showruners do not include many "Beauty and the Beast" elements within Sansa story.

[kittykat]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Though if it's true (and as I said, it's all plausible), I'm kind of surprised that the writers are putting the fan-favourite Baby Bear in Sansa's camp on that point.  Though I guess if they're going to dramatize the possibility of Sansa turning against Jon, it needs to look plausible that she'd find support.

I don't know.  I think it makes pretty good sense that Lyanna would fall on Sansa's side.  She called her 62 men to an outnumbered fight and the likelihood of at most 10 of them surviving was pretty low.  I could see her resenting Jon if he decided to forgive the families who sided with the Boltons.  As said by many, children of the terrible parents shouldn't be punished but resentments with those families will run deep.

 

4 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I'm a little confused by the Euron/Sand stuff - does he kill two Sands, as reported earlier, and then poisons Tyene as his third kill, or is it one in battle and one by poison so that the third is left to inherit? I could see the show killing off all the unpopular Dornish characters and then never mentioning it again so we don't know who rules Sunspear when the show ends.

I'm confused as to where this places everyone.  I kind of assumed Dany would land in Dorne first but it looks like she's setting up base at Dragonstone.  Unless the Sands travel to KL as spies (sort of in similarity to where their book plot left off) or his miracle fleet lands in Dorne and wrecks shit up before their section of Dany's army is ready

Tyene is the only Sand I can muster so I wouldn't object to her surviving, marrying Bronn and having sellsword children who continue the tradition of fighting and fucking and fucking and fighting through Westeros but that's my own fanfic ;-)

All these post of Dany/Jon having sex when the wall falls are killing me.  As someone who binged It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia recently, I keep imagining Mac cutting in going "see.  Because she's fire, and he's ice.  It's ice and fire coming together like the title.  It's a callback.  And the wall falling is his ice and her fire.  Him and her, it's a symbol."  while the rest of gang goes "YEAH WE GOT IT!"

[OhOkayWhat]

8 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

So far it looks like Pod is staying with Sansa ( don't remember any mention of Podrick in the South ), makes some sense if Brienne balks because it leaves Sansa vulnerable, it could also sort of put Pod as someone brave, gentle and worthy of her.

You know? I actually like the whole Pod/Sansa idea!

Edited October 18, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Wouter]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If anything, these supposed "leaks" have piqued my curiosity as to how LF is going to go in the books, because while I wouldn't put it past D&D to write that resolution, I cannot believe the book plot shakes out anything like "LF tries to turn Arya against Sansa, fails, Sansa's eyes are opened as to LF's true nature by Bran Ex Machina, and LF is executed by Arya on Sansa's orders." 

With that said, by the time Sansa makes it to Winterfell in the books (assuming that's where she goes), she will likely have shed her Alayne persona.

 

As I wrote, this same plot could take place in the Vale without changing the essential elements. Arya goes to the Vale instead of the North, LF and Sansa stayed there up to that point, Bran communicates through dreams (and he could probably see what LF has been up to), bingo. In that scenario, the "Alayne" disguise may still be intact or semi-intact (some people might know, the Mad Mouse almost certainly knows it already by the time of the Winds sample chapter).

LF turning Arya against Sansa would not be needed, especially if book-Arya learns about book-Sansa going to Cersei. Which show-Sansa did not do, so the showrunners provide a different reason, if they feel the need for a reason to make them suspicious of one another, for a time. In the books, Sansa would presumably not be in contact with her siblings (prior to Arya arriving), and thus LF could be able to manipulate her (by withholding crucial info, for example) into going along with plans that could be against Jons or Brans interests.

A lot of people say "books are books and the show is the show", but almost everyone seems to think that book-Sansa will go north, without dealing with LF beforehand. It is still far from certain that this is the case, as the situation in book and show was changed radically in three ways:

-Ramsay/Sansa marriage instead of Ramsay/Jeyne

-Stannis removed from the board early (signs in the sample chapters point to Stannis winning at least the initial fight, at the lakeside, against Freys/Boltons; not too mention, he can't burn Shireen if he dies at the hands of the Boltons in that battle).

-armies of the Vale are supposedly boxed in the Vale by snow in the high passes in the books, and are noted warriors in the snows in the show. In the first case, they seem to be designed not to get involved - anywhere but the Vale proper - until a fleet is able to move them, in the second case they were custom-made to intervene in the north.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, OhOkayWhat said:

You know? I actually like the whole Pod/Sansa idea!

It's only because of what I know from the show, book wise IT May Happen, but book wise though they never met, I like Ned Dayne and Sansa.

[GrailKing]

Sansa could take care of LF in WF especially if she gets info about her dad or what happened to 'Arya' due to LF involvement.

[Wouter]

20 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well Arya needs to land in the Vale early because how I understood the Alaynne excerpts

  Reveal hidden contents

something will go down in the Vale and Sansa is either forced to leave or is kidnapped.

Spoiler

It's the start of a book plot that will likely span several chapters; while the Made Mouse may eventually go for a kidnapping attempt (he would pretty much need a boat and helpers to pull it off, but he is not be underestimated), I think the fallout from that particular chapter may be one of the young knights being killed in the tournament (possibly by Lyn Corbray, whom she pissed off in the sample chapter, so maybe it will be the one who wears her favour who buys it).

While the Mouse is likely to try something, I don't think he will actually succeed at leaving the Vale with a captive Sansa.

16 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

So far it looks like Pod is staying with Sansa ( don't remember any mention of Podrick in the South ), makes some sense if Brienne balks because it leaves Sansa vulnerable, it could also sort of put Pod as someone brave, gentle and worthy of her.

In the books, I had the impression that Pod may be somewhat smitten with Sansa. He did go look for her after Tywin had him released.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, Wouter said:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's the start of a book plot that will likely span several chapters; while the Made Mouse may eventually go for a kidnapping attempt (he would pretty much need a boat and helpers to pull it off, but he is not be underestimated), I think the fallout from that particular chapter may be one of the young knights being killed in the tournament (possibly by Lyn Corbray, whom she pissed off in the sample chapter, so maybe it will be the one who wears her favour who buys it).

While the Mouse is likely to try something, I don't think he will actually succeed at leaving the Vale with a captive Sansa.

In the books, I had the impression that Pod may be somewhat smitten with Sansa. He did go look for her after Tywin had him released.

Well hey I'm smitten by her, but I'm to old and she and Sophie are to young. LOL

Edited October 18, 2016 by GrailKing
spelling

[Wouter]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

It's only because of what I know from the show, book wise IT May Happen, but book wise though they never met, I like Ned Dayne and Sansa.

Ned seems like the ideal match, I agree. A pity he has disappeared from the books, and I wonder if we will ever read about him again (I fear this may not even be the case in Winds, and I doubt there will be another book after that).

Edited October 18, 2016 by Wouter

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Wouter said:

Ned seems like the ideal match, I agree. A pity he has disappeared from the books, and I wonder if we will ever read about him again (I fear this may not even be the case in Winds, and I doubt there will be another book after that).

Shhhh! don't say such a thing like that.

I hate hanging chads.

[SeanC]

24 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I don't know.  I think it makes pretty good sense that Lyanna would fall on Sansa's side.  She called her 62 men to an outnumbered fight and the likelihood of at most 10 of them surviving was pretty low.  I could see her resenting Jon if he decided to forgive the families who sided with the Boltons.  As said by many, children of the terrible parents shouldn't be punished but resentments with those families will run deep.

I wasn't saying it would be out of character, I was just saying that I'm surprised they put Lyanna on Sansa's side in Team Wrong.

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I wasn't saying it would be out of character, I was just saying that I'm surprised they put Lyanna on Sansa's side in Team Wrong.

If one assumes Sansa is going against Jon you could be right, I don't think she is, I think they are getting her story on track, just the location is WF not the Eyrie, LF needs spies, Sansa figured out 1 Cobray is LF man and 2 in book excerpts

Cobray may be double crossing LF

so Sansa may have to find the spy and neutralize it.

I know Sansa is portrayed as unreliable or evil and it could go that way but from how her arc has progressed and what she tells us in book and show I don't think that's where she is heading, I believe she will kill LF or setup his final demise.

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

If one assumes Sansa is going against Jon you could be right, I don't think she is, I think they are getting her story on track, just the location is WF not the Eyrie, LF needs spies, Sansa figured out 1 Cobray is LF man and 2 in book excerpts

  Reveal hidden contents

Cobray may be double crossing LF

so Sansa may have to find the spy and neutralize it.

I know Sansa is portrayed as unreliable or evil and it could go that way but from how her arc has progressed and what she tells us in book and show I don't think that's where she is heading, I believe she will kill LF or setup his final demise.

I wasn't saying she was going to be evil.  If all these spoilers are true, then it's confirmed that she isn't.

But in this specific exchange, it seems like the audience is meant to side with Jon, not Sansa and Lyanna.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

I wasn't saying she was going to be evil.  If all these spoilers are true, then it's confirmed that she isn't.

But in this specific exchange, it seems like the audience is meant to side with Jon, not Sansa and Lyanna.

I  understood that, but I just put the reasoning out there because others will and do disagree.

So is it to show Jon may be a good wartime King but not so much at peace time or a time of rebuilding.

[OhOkayWhat]

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

it seems like the audience is meant....

I think this is something we all usually think when we analyze a plot and we have problems to understand why it makes sense, but maybe that is precisely the problem: we assume the writer wants us to feel something very specific and maybe it is not the case at all.

Edited October 18, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

Just now, OhOkayWhat said:

I think this is something we all usually think when we analyze a plot and we have problems to understand why it makes sense, but maybe that is precisely the problem: we assume the writer wants us to feel something very specific and maybe it is not the case at all.

Unless Alys Karstark and Umber Jr. stab the Starks in the back later in the season, the audience is going to side with Jon against punishing small children.

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Unless Alys Karstark and Umber Jr. stab the Starks in the back later in the season, the audience is going to side with Jon against punishing small children.

Well WRT book Alys that would seem to go against what we know as to how she feels about her family, I don't think D & D would do that to us, or would they ?

Just jesting.

[anamika]

48 minutes ago, SeanC said:

But in this specific exchange, it seems like the audience is meant to side with Jon, not Sansa and Lyanna.

Precisely why they are having fan favorite Lyanna side with Sansa. It sort of provides audience support for Sansa's decisions against Jon. And from seeing how they wrote Jon-Sansa last season, I don't think they entirely want the audience to side with Jon- rather they want Sansa to come off as some kind of political mastermind compared to naive, good natured Jon.

[Eyes High]

Quote

So far it looks like Pod is staying with Sansa ( don't remember any mention of Podrick in the South ), makes some sense if Brienne balks because it leaves Sansa vulnerable, it could also sort of put Pod as someone brave, gentle and worthy of her.

I don't understand the idea that Sansa is going to or even should end up with someone "brave, gentle and worthy of her" (or brave, gentle and strong as Ned put it in ASOIAF) and making predictions on that basis. First of all, Book Sansa doesn't even want that. In AGOT, she wanted Joffrey ("I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him"). Later on, she seems to want Sandor, who ticks maybe one of those three boxes (two if we go by the brave/gentle/strong list). Second of all, worthiness has never been a good predictor of characters' fates in GOT/ASOIAF. Did Catelyn deserve to have her throat slit after watching her firstborn die? Finally, even if worthiness were in fact a good predictor of the probability of a character getting a brave, gentle mate worthy of him or her, there's nothing special about Sansa or her cruel lot that would earn her the front of the brave, gentle and worthy life partner queue. Pretty much every surviving major character has suffered multiple kinds of hideous trauma, and it hasn't gotten them any closer to the sweet, tender, mutual, and healthy (or at least not horribly dysfunctional) love they crave. Why should Sansa be any different?

It therefore seems very unlikely that Sansa will end up with someone "brave, gentle and worthy of her." Fortunately, Sansa doesn't want someone "brave, gentle and worthy of her." If Sansa ends up with someone (Sandor, probably), it will be because she loves him as a person, not because he ticks off items on her dad's checklist. Even if she thought that checklist was super important, and there's no indication that she took her dad's checklist of what constitutes a worthy mate to heart, she would probably just reason backwards and convince herself either that her dude of choice possessed those qualities or that it didn't matter that he didn't, as she did with Joffrey.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

49 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Unless Alys Karstark and Umber Jr. stab the Starks in the back later in the season, the audience is going to side with Jon against punishing small children.

If most of the audience sides with Jon it only means that most of the audience sides with Jon. It does not mean necessarily that the writer wanted it, maybe the writer just followed what he thinks the characters should do and it is up for the audience to feel whatever they want to feel about it. I think a good example of it is Arya killing the Freys and how the audience reacted to it. Also I am not saying it is a responsible way to write, I am just saying, maybe this is the case with the Show sometimes.

[Eyes High]

Javi (@javimgol) has confirmed that Gendry will be acting in "Desembarco" (the landing at Dragonstone, which will be filmed in Bilbao, or King's Landing, called "Desembarco del Rey" in Spanish? Not sure) and will reunite with Davos at some point.

Javi also had and then deleted a conversation with a guy on Twitter about the guy having spotted Joe Dempsie leaving a hotel with Liam Cunningham. (Maybe they thought they were DMs?)

Anonymous poster on L Chat (with a dedicated Sophie Turner thread) said the following today about Zumaia (my bold):

Quote

No I mean you're going to hear about two different shoots. The first will be with many extras which will [be] soldiers for Daenerys and will serve as an exterior shot of Dragonstone. Second, you'll hear about a nightime shoot closed off to the public in Zumaia, Spain. It needs to be nighttime because of the tide cycle. It's closed off and will have intense security due to what is being shot. But I'll [lift] the lid for you. It's Kit Harington and Liam Cunningham coming ashore in a boat. This will be an exterior shot of them coming ashore at Dragonstone being greeted by some of those extras. By now I'm sure you realize why the intense security will wish to keep this secret.

You will hear about sightings of them (and others) in the next 10-15 days. I promise you.

The French language article I mentioned upthread talked about a scene being shot in a grotto on the Zumaia beach at low tide, so that was already common knowledge. The Jon/Davos part is new.

There are so many scenes being shot in Spain over the next few weeks that I'm having trouble keeping track of them.

Castillo de Almodovar del Rio: Highgarden?

Italica Roman ruins at Santiponce: Dragonpit

Zumaia beach: Dany landing at Dragonstone with Tyrion (50 rowers)

Zumaia breach grotto scene: Jon and Davos landing at Dragonstone

Muriola Beach at Barrika: More Dragonstone, with Davos and Tyrion...? (PD and LC were spotted on the beach there)

Bermeo (Gaztelugatxe islet): More Dragonstone...?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It therefore seems very unlikely that Sansa will end up with someone "brave, gentle and worthy of her."

We do not know if worthiness is (or not) a good predictor of characters' fates in Game of Thrones. Maybe it is, maybe it is not. Specially if we are talking about the endgame of the current surviving characters. We must remember that for many of them we are only entering in the last act of a long 73 hours movie, therefore, we really do not know what rule to apply with them.

I think it is hard to say if something is unlikely or not, because we need first to have something to guide us about how to predict it.

Also if we are talking about Pod/Sansa, I think we are talking mostly about the show, and it seems the showrunners are not following the same "Beauty and the Beast" elements of Book-Sansa. We do not know if Sandor will be a big part of Show-Sansa endgame.

Finally, the Show-Sansa is changing, it is possible she will want different things in the future, therefore, we should not use what she wanted before as a definitive guide of what she will want in the future.

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Also if we are talking about Pod/Sansa, I think we are talking mostly about the show, and it seems the showrunners are not following the same "Beauty and the Beast" elements of Book-Sansa. We do not know if Sandor will be a big part of Show-Sansa endgame.

While I suspect there is a good deal of wiggle room for D&D to play with the fates of less prominent characters (like Pod and Bronn) or for GRRM to change his mind about where he wanted those less prominent characters to end up, I would be very, very surprised if the show endgames for the Starks, the main Lannisters, and Dany did not align exactly with their book fates. If Show Jon and Dany wind up happily married in the show as Prom King and Queen of Westeros, that is where they will end up in the books. If Show Arya decides to sail into the sunset and explore what's west of Westeros as some have suggested she will, that is what Book Arya will wind up doing. If Show Tyrion decides when the dust settles to give up on the game of thrones once and for all and retires to a nice vineyard to drink himself to death in peace, that will be Book Tyrion's fate. And if Show Sansa at the eleventh hour, however improbably given the relative lack of buildup in the show to date, falls into Show Sandor's arms and resolves to marry him immediately, that is just how it will play out in the books.

It's a bit early to declare TV SanSan dead and buried, despite its admittedly anemic showing in the series to date. As long as Sandor lives, the prospect of endgame SanSan lives in the show, and if the leaks are correct about Arya and Sansa interacting at Winterfell, Season 7 may give a SanSan endgame more of a boost. If Arya and Sansa are interacting for any length of time, I don't know how Sandor won't come up, and if the topic does come up, we might get a stronger sense of TV Sansa's feelings towards Sandor and therefore edge closer to Book Sansa (who appears to be very much attracted to the Hound).

Edited October 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's a bit early to declare TV SanSan dead and buried, despite its admittedly anemic showing in the series to date. As long as Sandor lives, the prospect of endgame SanSan lives in the show, and if the leaks are correct about Arya and Sansa interacting at Winterfell, Season 7 may give a SanSan endgame more of a boost. If Arya and Sansa are interacting for any length of time, I don't know how Sandor won't come up, and if the topic does come up, we might get a stronger sense of TV Sansa's feelings towards Sandor and therefore edge closer to Book Sansa (who appears to be very much attracted to the Hound).

According to the spoilers, looks like the Hound is hanging out with Jon and Co. and fighting wights at Eastwatch by the Sea. There as no mention of the Hound and Sansa meeting. I find it hard to believe that if we are getting SanSan on the show there is no interaction between the two next season.

I still think that Sansa's two possible endings in the books are: Dying along with LF or going off with the Hound. According to the spoilers, she ends LF and is still living at the end of it. Which means SanSan - but the Hound is nowhere near WF. I do think the show will take some leeway with Sansa, considering that they have already changed her story so much (For example, I don't see her ever going North to WF again in the books). The show may give her a more age appropriate partner in someone like Pod as opposed to the books. But Pod on the show does seem more like a comedy act. According to the actor who plays Jaqen H'ghar, the show is only going to strictly follow the endings of the main five - Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran and Arya. Everyone else is game for change.

Meanwhile, the romances that the show may pursue - Jon/Dany and Jaime/Brienne - could see some action. Brienne is heading south and may meet up with Jaime, and Jon and Dany are apparently meeting in episode 2. Does Arya meet Gendry in the spoilers? Don't recall...

Edited October 19, 2016 by anamika

[FemmyV]

6 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I do not get people in different forums criticizing David and Dan for Jon/Dany like it is something only they could include without noticing that if it actually happens in the show it will happen in the books. And I am one of those who always say: books are the books and the show is the show, but we are talking here about 2 of the big 3 (Dany,Jon,Tyrion), and the chances they changed their endgames is pretty low.

JonSa shippers.

 

9 hours ago, anamika said:

Now it looks like LF manipulates Arya to distrust Sansa with a letter. Like why?! Arya is pretty perceptive in the books, so her falling for LF's BS is pretty much a load of BS itself.

What's Arya been doing? Playing the truth and lies game. She'll hear right through any of LF's spoken lies, but paper? Hmmmm ....

[ElizaD]

Tyrion has surprisingly little to do in the unofficial spoilers. There's that set report of him confronting one of his siblings (probably Jaime in a fight Dany's forces lose early in the season), but the spoilers I've read just have him chatting with Dany and Jon and not actually doing anything that would suggest he has a plot of his own; even Arya is said to kill Freys and probably frees Edmure before she joins the Sansa/Littlefinger plot in the North. I know Tyrion spent season 6 drinking and not accomplishing much, but since he's been viewed as one of the big three I expected him to feel more important, not less, as the show nears its ending. Right now he's just looking like Dany's Hand who arranges her meetings with players like Jon and Cersei, and if Viserion is killed he might not even get to ride a dragon.

I wonder if we'll get a season 8 scene of Jon realizing that he had sex with his aunt or if they'll avoid spelling it out to the audience and just have Dany talk about how marriage would unite their two Targ claims.

Doomed great houses on the show: Baratheon, Tyrell, Martell. Tully looks like it's going to survive thanks to Arya's murder spree. Arryn is safe away from the action. Things look bad for Greyjoy since Yara is captured and Theon goes Reek again, but since there's been nothing about their deaths they still have a chance.

We got the Dany/Tyrion meeting in season 5 but Dany/Jon should feel like an even bigger event - finally, we're about to find out how this story ends.

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I would be very, very surprised if the show endgames for the Starks, the main Lannisters, and Dany did not align exactly with their book fates

I think the big 3 in the show will be the closest to their endgame in the books.

With Arya and Sansa, they easily can write it as an open ending: Arya sailing West of Westeros even if in the books she goes somewhere else, this is of course if she does not have a big political importance at the end of Dream of Spring, and with Sansa, they can write her to be free to marry anyone she wants in the future even if we do not know who he will be, while in the books maybe she finally decides to choose Sandor to marry (I still doubt she will marry someone in the novels).

Why? because maybe nothing logically will compels them to write a "closed ending" for them. With other characters, it is possible they need to write an certain ending because they need to determine the fate of kingdoms and thrones and whole continents. The previous events will determine the next ones and those will determine their endgame.

With Arya, she is mostly a free character without political importance taking her own decisions, with Sansa, if she marries Sandor in the books, it means very little politically too, therefore that novel-endgame can be different in the show. Maybe we will see Show-Sandor kneeling in front of Show-Sansa to be knighted giving some closure to their relationship.

 

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

and if the leaks are correct about Arya and Sansa interacting at Winterfell, Season 7 may give a SanSan endgame more of a boost.

 

7 hours ago, anamika said:

According to the spoilers, looks like the Hound is hanging out with Jon and Co. and fighting wights at Eastwatch by the Sea. There as no mention of the Hound and Sansa meeting. I find it hard to believe that if we are getting SanSan on the show there is no interaction between the two next season.whowho

I agree with Anamika here, if they two do not interact this season, it does not look very well for Sansan endgame chances, even if I also agree it still is possible. We need to put it in context: we are not talking about 1 season of separation between 2 seasons with Sansa-Sandor interactions. We are talking about Season 3,4,5,6 and (if the leaks are true) maybe also season 7 without Sansan scenes.

An isolated conversation will not build a whole romantic relationship that does not exist in the Show. I suspect that even the worst soap opera knows you need to have your couple together doing romantic things on screen to build a romance, even if it is not very well written.

We read in forums about lots of people who complain about a relative, friend or colleague who watch every Sunday the show, and they do not even know the names of the main characters. And I suspect they are a big part of the entire audience. And if the showrunners wanted to include a romantic Sansan subplot, that big  part of the audience needed to see very clearly the romantic elements on screen to believe there was (and there will be) a romantic plot somewhere in Sansa storyline.

As far I remember they never wrote a "surprise romance" between two characters that already know each other and had enough previous interactions. Or if they did, it is a very uncommon thing. In the case of Sansan, I agree with their decision to remove the romance and instead to include a little bit of "friendship".

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Arya and Sansa are interacting for any length of time, I don't know how Sandor won't come up...

Lots of people said the same about Brienne finally talking with Sansa alone.... and Sandor name was not mentioned. Some fans expected this to launch Sansan in the show, and it did not. In fact, that scene only made stronger the connection between Arya and Sandor. It is possible the same thing happens again in season 7 with that hypothetical conversation if the leaks are true.

 

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Brienne is heading south and may meet up with Jaime...

Yes, I think they are investing their efforts with Brienne/Jaime.

 

5 hours ago, FemmyV said:

JonSa shippers.

Maybe, but I have been reading other forums, and it seems there is a lot of people blaming the showrunners for a hypothetical Dany/Jon romance and most of them does not seems to be fans of Jon/Sansa at all.

Edited October 19, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[WearyTraveler]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Javi (@javimgol) has confirmed that Gendry will be acting in "Desembarco" (the landing at Dragonstone, which will be filmed in Bilbao, or King's Landing, called "Desembarco del Rey" in Spanish? Not sure)

When the Spaniards refer to Desembarco in relation to GoT they mean Desembarco del Rey (King's Landing).  Desembarco is a noun, if they meant to say someone landed, was landing, will land in a place, they would conjugate the verb and use the name of the place.  So, a phrase like "Dempsey was seen landing [in Drangonstone]" would be "Dempsey fue visto desembarcando en Drangonstone"

[Eyes High]

6 hours ago, ElizaD said:

Tyrion has surprisingly little to do in the unofficial spoilers. There's that set report of him confronting one of his siblings (probably Jaime in a fight Dany's forces lose early in the season), but the spoilers I've read just have him chatting with Dany and Jon and not actually doing anything that would suggest he has a plot of his own...

According to the leaks (the first bunch and further responses from awayforthelads), Tyrion's up to the following in Season 7:

Accompanies Dany when she lands at Dragonstone.

Tells Dany about Jon's deal when they find out about him being KITN.

Meets Jon and Davos when they arrive at Dragonstone. Tries to convince Dany Jon's not crazy when he warns her about the WW threat.

Sneaks into KL with Davos and Bronn to hold a secret meeting with Jaime to convince him to surrender to Dany. It doesn't go well.

Participates in an ambush of Jaime's forces when they are returning from the successful sack of Highgarden.

Unsuccessfully tries to persuade Dany not to burn Randyll and Dickon and is horrified when she does.

Frets with Varys about Dany's impulsive nature.

Comes up with a scheme to infiltrate Casterly Rock (which doesn't appear to be used in Season 7).

Talks Dany out of a direct attack on KL because of all the innocent people who would die.

Has a few nice scenes with Jon where they reflect on how far they've come since their last meeting and where Tyrion tries to sell Jon on Dany's queenship being the best choice for Westeros.

Takes a moment to talk to Cersei alone after the dragonpit parley.

...I agree it's a bit thin (not sure what Tyrion is supposed to be doing when Jon, Davos et al. head out for Operation Wight Retrieval), but it seems like enough for Tyrion to do for seven episodes, particularly when the surviving characters are now all being jammed together and have to share scene time with each other.

If the leak is right, Tyrion's appointed role in the show will be the bleeding heart pacifist who talks (or tries to talk) Dany off the ledge when she's getting too suspicious or too murdery, which to be fair isn't much of a stretch from what he did in 6x09. I have to laugh at Tyrion trying to talk Dany out of launching an attack on KL that would kill lots of innocent KL civilians, since at the trial he said he should have let Stannis kill all of them.

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe, but I have been reading other forums, and it seems there is a lot of people blaming the showrunners for a hypothetical Dany/Jon romance and most of them does not seems to be fans of Jon/Sansa at all.

It seems like pretty much everyone in book fan circles hates Jon/Dany, not just Jonsa shippers. If it does come to pass, I'm guessing the reception of a Dany/Jon romance among show watchers will be nothing short of rapturous, though.

2 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

When the Spaniards refer to Desembarco in relation to GoT they mean Desembarco del Rey (King's Landing).  Desembarco is a noun, if they meant to say someone landed, was landing, will land in a place, they would conjugate the verb and use the name of the place.  So, a phrase like "Dempsey was seen landing [in Drangonstone]" would be "Dempsey fue visto desembarcando en Drangonstone"

Thank you. I believe Javi said that Gendry is acting in KL ("Yo se que [Gendry] actua en Desembarco y se reune con Davos en algun momento"), which again appears to confirm a portion of the leaks (that Davos discovers Gendry in KL making weapons).

ETA:

GOT filming on the beach at Barrika:

@AdriBilbao1 reports that Peter and Liam are standing beside a boat (interpreting this as a "boat landing").

Tyrion, Davos and a boat.

Other pictures.

Video here. It's weirdly nostalgic to see Davos dressed the way he used to be several seasons ago. New costume for Tyrion, too.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[anamika]

Leaks are false? No Dany and Jon having sex while the wall comes down :(

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/589ymo/pm_from_uawayforthelads_sorry_buddy_but_i_just/

Looks like it is only Davos (And maybe Brienne) who goes south to meet with Dany and Tyrion...

Unless we get actual pics of Kit Harington filming in Spain, I think we should put off speculation of Jon in the South.

Edited October 19, 2016 by anamika

[Chris24601]

13 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't understand the idea that Sansa is going to or even should end up with someone "brave, gentle and worthy of her" (or brave, gentle and strong as Ned put it in ASOIAF) and making predictions on that basis. First of all, Book Sansa doesn't even want that. In AGOT, she wanted Joffrey ("I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him").

Isn't the fact that Ned tells Arya that she will marry a King (even though Arya also rejects that fate and says that's Sansa's fate and not hers) claimed to be foreshadowing for Arya?

What's the difference between that and Ned telling Sansa he'll find a worthy, brave, gentle and strong match for Sansa and her rejecting that?

Why is one foreshadowing (even if Arya rejects it) while the other isn't foreshadowing (because Sansa rejects it)?

ETA: The news that all those ridiculous spoilers are fake should be surprising to no one (the one that convinced me it was fake was that Bran didn't know who Jon's parents were and would have to puzzle it out with Sam when the entire point of his final scene in season six was for Bran and the audience to have Jon's true parentage confirmed).

At this point in production last season the boards were abuzz with the prospects that Euron would be attacking the Reach (and possibly be played by Ian McShane), that Sansa would either head back to Littlefinger and the Vale or go to Last Hearth and team up with Rickon as the Northern lords plotted against Ramsey (one particular theory was that Jon and the Wildlings would ride to Sansa and Rickon's rescue in the Battle of the Bastards), that Arya would travel to Westeros as part of theater troupe on a mission from the Faceless Men, Bran would spend the rest of the series in the tree and Jon would certainly be resurrected from his funeral pyre to mirror Dany's emerging from the pyre back in season one.

A few things being discussed at that point ended up having germs of truth in them that showed up in the season, but for the most part what everyone thought season six would look like and what it actually ended up looking like could have been two completely different shows.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Chris24601

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

GOT filming on the beach at Barrika:

@AdriBilbao1 reports that Peter and Liam are standing beside a boat (interpreting this as a "boat landing").

Tyrion, Davos and a boat.

Other pictures.

Video here. It's weirdly nostalgic to see Davos dressed the way he used to be several seasons ago. New costume for Tyrion, too.

 

Maybe the onion knight is smuggling himself and Tyrion into someplace dangerous for a stealth mission. That boat looks like something similar to what he took Melisandre in for birthing her shadow baby.

Edited October 19, 2016 by anamika