Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Gwendoline Christie gave an interview on the redcarpet and she gave a much less ominous response about what's ahead in Season 7.

Gwendoline Christie Season 7

Don't know who she's talking about.  In terms of "What fan's have always wanted"  Her strongest character connections are Jaimie, Podrick, Sansa and I guess Tormund.   I do take this interview to mean Brienne the Beauty will live to see Season 8.

I think Gwendoline Christie has previously confirmed that she only gets excerpts, not the entire script, so...Jaime and Brienne bang in Season 7?

Alexander Siddig did an interview indicating that he was originally supposed to appear in four Season 6 episodes and get killed off at the end of the season. Usually, scripts are finished for the next season by June of the year before that season airs, so I'm wondering if the disastrous reception of the Dorne plot in Season 5, which concluded in June 2016, prompted some hasty rewriting on the part of D&D all but eliminating Dorne from Season 6.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

26 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Alexander Siddig did an interview indicating that he was originally supposed to appear in four Season 6 episodes and get killed off at the end of the season. Usually, scripts are finished for the next season by June of the year before that season airs, so I'm wondering if the disastrous reception of the Dorne plot in Season 5, which concluded in June 2016, prompted some hasty rewriting on the part of D&D all but eliminating Dorne from Season 6.

They eliminated the wrong problem. Doran was fine. The Sand Snakes are unbearable.

Edited September 22, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[AshleyN]

21 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Personally, I'm hoping the conflict between Jon and Sansa next season is that Sansa doesn't trust Littlefinger and wants him gone while Jon feels they need Littlefinger because of his control of the Vale armies which will be needed for the war with the White Walkers. That feels like a much more plausible divide for a conflict to me than some "Sansa is greedy for power" nonsense. It plays to both their inherent weaknesses... Sansa's mistrustfulness and desire for security and Jon's desire for any allies he can get and being generally too trusting... without making either one the bad guy (that's reserved for Littlefinger).

Such a scenario would then give us scenes of Jon interacting with Littlefinger (and possibly Lord Royce and Robin) and Littlefinger trying to get Jon to trust him while Sansa is trying to get Davos and Tormund (i.e. people she didn't fully trust last season, but who Jon trusts implicitly) on her side against Littlefinger. Meanwhile, Littlefinger can be working behind the scenes to get Lord Cerwyn (the whiny one who wanted to go home and still looked uncertain even as other lords started declaring for Jon) and a few other Northern Lords to push against 'The Bastard King' in favor of trueborn Sansa as part of setting up a no-win scenario to get what he wants.

It also sets up nicely several reactions and reverses that a narrative needs. Ex. Sansa wins over Tormund to her cause, but then Littlefinger convinces Jon that Tormund and the Free Folk should head to the Wall with the Vale armies because the Free Folk are more familiar with the terrain than his men. Or she wins over Davos, but then Littlefinger brings news of Dany's forces and suggests sending the King's most trusted advisor to treat with Dany for more troops for the fight. Each time a reasonable suggestion with the side-effect of separating Jon from his most trusted advisors, undermining Sansa's efforts to convince Jon of the danger and making it easier for his conspiracy with the Northern Lords to unseat Jon and put Sansa on the throne (and with Jon out of the way and since she's a girl in time of war and he is her uncle by marriage that would make Littlefinger de facto head of the household).

So, another season of reading about how dumb all the Stark (men) are, how "Jon Snow knows nothing", how he hasn't earned anything he has, and how undeserving he is compared to OMG QUEEN SANSA!!! No thank you.

Then again, my fear is that this is where the Jon vs. Sansa thing is heading anyway. Apparently we're supposed to believe that Sansa is some kind of political mastermind now, while "noble idiot" is basically their default characterization when it comes to the male Starks. I'm hoping they realize that the latter is kind of played out and go for a dynamic that's at least a little different.

[SeanC]

59 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I think Gwendoline Christie has previously confirmed that she only gets excerpts, not the entire script, so...Jaime and Brienne bang in Season 7?

Really?  That doesn't seem to be the case with any other main castmember.  Maybe she she said she only reads her parts (which some others have also done in the past)?

[Skeeter22]

I'm curious about what kind of setbacks Dany is going to have this season. She was absurdly overpowered at the end of last season, and I don't see how she can sustain it. She'll be facing off with a major character for the first time instead of her usual cardboard cutout antagonists. I don't see how all three of her dragons make it out of this season. She is going to have to suffer a serious loss in order for there to be any tension in her story. That alliance she was gifted with in the finale should be filled with conflict and potential betrayal.  

[Advance35]

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Apparently we're supposed to believe that Sansa is some kind of political mastermind now, while "noble idiot" is basically their default characterization when it comes to the male Starks. I'm hoping they realize that the latter is kind of played out and go for a dynamic that's at least a little different.

Well to be fair I thought he was dumb as a box of hair for sending Melisandre away.  Considering everything he town criers is coming, he sends away the only person he's ever met or has access to, that can bring people back from the dead and have them remain human?!?!?!   Because a Smuggler cried?!?!?!  By all means execute her, when your  done with her, that being, after you survive doomsday.   He still likes to lean to the moral when he feels he can and that could end up (well he if he weren't special) being his undoing.

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I'm curious about what kind of setbacks Dany is going to have this season. She was absurdly overpowered at the end of last season, and I don't see how she can sustain it. She'll be facing off with a major character for the first time instead of her usual cardboard cutout antagonists. I don't see how all three of her dragons make it out of this season. She is going to have to suffer a serious loss in order for there to be any tension in her story. That alliance she was gifted with in the finale should be filled with conflict and potential betrayal.  

Has there been tension in her story since Season 2?  I think the only remotely interesting thing in Dany's story has nothing to do with her and everything to do with the people under her umbrella.   Tyrion, Varys, Olenna, Ellaria, Greyjoys and SandSnakes and how they are all going to mix.   She could go scout on her dragon offscreen for 5 episodes and I don't think I'd notice if I got all of those characters together.

Some have speculated that it's going to be the weather that widdles down Dany's side of the conflict to a more even match.   But I also wouldn't be surprised if one of the dragons doesn't see Season 8.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Advance35

[Wouter]

17 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't think Tyrion/Sansa is any kind of counterpart to the Tyrion/Arya story in the outline considering that, outline Tyrion was actually in love with outline Arya. Book Tyrion does not love Sansa - he was saddled with her just like she was saddled with him by Tywin. He married her because he wanted Winterfell. He currently hates her in the books because he thinks she betrayed him.

I don't think Tyrion hates Sansa. ADWD really doesn't give to go on and the last chapter (where he professes to miss Jaime and even Shae, who betrayed him so badly) puts his feelings in doubt. For that matter, I don't think he really hates Jaime and one of Dany's 3 betrayals could be Tyrion protecting his brother from her ("out of love"). We will see.

You write "any kind" of counterpart, but then you focus solely on one aspect of the Tyrion-Arya relationship in the outline: the romantic love. But not only does this romatic love only go so far (considering she is his captive at some point and he burns down her home - really romantic, that one, even more so than the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in the books), there are other aspects to it. The rivaly with another (Jon, in the outline, LF, in the books). Arya doesn't seem to return his love in the outline, Sansa is unresponsive to Tyrion's attempt to get her to like/trust him.

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 Instead of manipulating dumb, trusting Sweetrobin while conspiring with LF, she's manipulating her dumb, trusting half-brother while conspiring with LF.

GRRM will not allow Sansa to benefit in a lasting sense from the very devastation of her house she helped unleash in a bid to preserve her chance of becoming queen. Her desire to be queen was the issue in the first place. If she becomes queen in the end, it will be a retroactive validation of her AGOT bullshit. I think Sansa's chance of becoming queen of anything died with Ned.

Book-Sweetrobin isn't exactly trusting though. And Jon isn't dumb, not even show-Jon. She hasn't manipulated him yet either, let's at least wait for credible spoiler reports pointing in that direction before we take it as fact. For the moment, it's still an assumption that Sansa will conspire with LF as a super manipulator of Starks.

Sure, the actors and the showrunners are saying things, but this time last year they were explaining everywhere how Kit Harrington would definitely not return to the show.

As for Sansa's desire to become queen - her parents share responsibility for that, along with Robert. Sansa didn't arrange the bethrotal with Joffrey.

Sansa getting what she wants, but not at all in the way she wants it, would actually be a GRRM-esque outcome to her story, IMO. If Tyrion wins the throne in the end (a possibility if Jon and Dany end up dying or otherwise decline the throne in the end, especially if Tyrion turns out to be a dragonrider), who would likely be the queen? And would that be a triumph or a bitter fate, for that person?

Yes, it's a really long shot, and a Danny/Jon pairing ruling is the far more likely outcome, but I still feel it is something I could see GRRM doing.

[TxanGoddess]

Deleted!

Nverffingmind!  It is so irritating that this board won't let you use manual UBB code ... the " button leaves so much extra junk you have to trim off ...

Edited September 22, 2016 by TxanGoddess
aggravation

[glowbug]

12 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

I'm curious about what kind of setbacks Dany is going to have this season. She was absurdly overpowered at the end of last season, and I don't see how she can sustain it. She'll be facing off with a major character for the first time instead of her usual cardboard cutout antagonists. I don't see how all three of her dragons make it out of this season. She is going to have to suffer a serious loss in order for there to be any tension in her story. That alliance she was gifted with in the finale should be filled with conflict and potential betrayal.  

I'm sure TPTB will come up with obstacles to throw in Dany's way, although it may be that the tension in her storyline will come from her allies being threatened. The real tension may come from her fight against the White Walkers when they finally become part of her storyline. The dragons will be useful there, particularly against the wights, but the rest of her army isn't particularly helpful in that fight since all of them sans Jorah, if he makes his way back to her, are from warmer climates. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by glowbug

[Eyes High]

21 hours ago, SeanC said:

Really?  That doesn't seem to be the case with any other main castmember.  Maybe she she said she only reads her parts (which some others have also done in the past)?

I'm getting that information secondhand. I was under the impression that the second-tier cast members only got excerpts. To be fair, that doesn't rule out Gwendoline Christie hearing about the good stuff in other storylines from the other actors.

22 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

They eliminated the wrong problem. Doran was fine. The Sand Snakes are unbearable.

It seems like D&D just cut to the outcome they wanted--Ellaria and the Sand Snakes alive, Trystane and Doran dead--so they were always going to keep them in. Not quite sure D&D chose to spare them and sacrifice Doran and Trystane. In the show universe, surely Doran could have been easily persuaded to back Dany against Cersei? Even if Book Doran is doomed--which seems likely to me--they've switched up so much I don't see why Doran couldn't have been kept and Ellaria and co. killed off, particularly since it seems that at least one Sand Snake was only spared to be killed off by Euron in Season 7.

21 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

I'm curious about what kind of setbacks Dany is going to have this season. She was absurdly overpowered at the end of last season, and I don't see how she can sustain it.

We're getting a few hints here and there: we know that the Greyjoy siblings will engage in a sea battle with Euron and lose (which we can assume will not bode well for a portion at least of Dany's fleet). We also know that Euron will kill at least one of the Sand Snakes, which may be a hint of Euron achieving some measure of success against the Martell portion of Dany's army (unless the Sand Snakes go on a solo mission to assassinate him or something). We also know that there will be an enormous battle between Dany's forces and Euron/Cersei's involving Unsullied and Dothraki which is expected to take a month to film. GOT is looking for 70 horses for filming; in the BOTB, they also used 70 horses for filming, and those 70 horses stood in for 3,000. I expect Dany will win, but if it matches the pattern of pretty much every big GOT battle to date, it will look hopelessly grim for a good bit until a third party charges in to the rescue.

The real leveler would be one or more of the dragons being neutralized somehow. We don't have any spoilers along those lines to date.

18 hours ago, Wouter said:

Book-Sweetrobin isn't exactly trusting though. And Jon isn't dumb, not even show-Jon. She hasn't manipulated him yet either, let's at least wait for credible spoiler reports pointing in that direction before we take it as fact. For the moment, it's still an assumption that Sansa will conspire with LF as a super manipulator of Starks.

Sure, the actors and the showrunners are saying things, but this time last year they were explaining everywhere how Kit Harrington would definitely not return to the show.

Sansa convinced Jon to engage in the mission to take back Winterfell in part by framing it as a Rickon rescue mission when she was aware the whole time that Rickon was as good as dead. I'd say using Jon's feelings towards Rickon to goad him into fighting her personal war on false pretenses is manipulative.

The Jon cliffhanger at the end of Season 5 is distinct from pretty much every other cliffhanger. The cast and writers often drop hints in interviews about the coming season (saying Tyrion would go east after Season 4 concluded, e.g.), often with sufficient detail to allow fans to puzzle out key developments (Alfie Allen talking about interacting with new characters before Season 5 aired, e.g.). Furthermore, when it comes to show-only material, D&D typically set up the next season in the last two episodes by highlighting key themes or positioning the characters where they need to be for the next season's arc: Sam reaching the library in 6x10, Cersei ascending the throne with a horrified Jaime looking on, etc. Just as the BWB's last scene of the season pointed to the BWB heading north, Jon and Sansa's last scene pointed--as confirmed by cast and the writers--that Sansa was reconsidering LF's value to her as an ally in light of Jon being named KITN and robbing her of credit and recognition she felt she deserved. No one's claiming that the strong hint that the BWB will be heading north in Season 7 is a clever bit of misdirection on the part of the writers, though.

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Sansa getting what she wants, but not at all in the way she wants it, would actually be a GRRM-esque outcome to her story, IMO.

Book Sansa no longer wants to be queen of Westeros, although I think the idea of being queen in the North might yet appeal to her. More to the point, Sansa ending up queen after she helped contribute towards Ned's downfall because of a bid to preserve her shot of becoming queen the last time around would be akin to Lysa ending up happily married to LF for many years after having murdered Jon Arryn to make that union possible. GRRM devised an appropriately ironic end for Lysa. I'm guessing he's not done with Sansa, either.

AGOT seemed to hint at Arya becoming queen and not Sansa, and the outline seems to be pointing in that direction as well (torrid Jon/Arya romance plus R+L=J equals King Jon/Queen Arya endgame?), although it's still anyone's guess. If I had to guess, Sansa's story will end with Sansa either 1) dying with or because of LF or 2) deciding to live in happy obscurity with Sandor.

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If Tyrion wins the throne in the end (a possibility if Jon and Dany end up dying or otherwise decline the throne in the end, especially if Tyrion turns out to be a dragonrider), who would likely be the queen? And would that be a triumph or a bitter fate, for that person?

GRRM seems to have been planning on killing Sansa off in the 1993 outline, as suggested by the line stating that Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to claim the throne (coupled with the tidbits that Outline Sansa is the mother to the heir to the throne and that there are no further mentions of Sansa in the outline past this point). GRRM did an interview the year before the outline was leaked where he said that he's always known what Tyrion, Jon and Arya's arcs were going to be and did another interview where he said that he's known the broad strokes of the ending since 1991. It's safe to assume that those broad strokes included the identities of the endgame occupants (or occupant) of the Iron Throne.

I find it very difficult to believe that GRRM intends to have Sansa end up as queen if he was planning on killing her off in 1993, two years after he came up with the series' ending. Whatever her role is in the endgame, assuming she lives that long (and I'm not convinced that she will), it will have nothing to do with whoever is going to wind up with Winterfell (Bran, probably), whoever is going to sit the Iron Throne (Jon and/or Dany, wildcard Jon/Arya), whatever Tyrion's role in all this is going to be if he survives (Hand of the King/Queen?), etc. It doesn't mean she won't survive, but she won't be in any significant position of power at the end of the day of the type that GRRM would have had in mind in 1991 when formulating the broad strokes of the ending.

If Sansa at the end of the day is shut out from ruling not only Westeros but also Winterfell (she's disinherited in the books, so this seems likely), that could dovetail nicely with a SanSan endgame. After having been used and abused by a series of people because of her claim, after lamenting that no one would ever marry her for love, choosing to settle down with a socially inferior man who could never hope to marry her otherwise, who also happens to be the one man who loves her without any reference to her title or claim, could be a fitting conclusion to her story. The price of that happiness might be being "cast out of the kingdom" of the North, which is where things might be headed in Season 7 and 8 if Sansa's hinted-at rift with Jon manifests and if the indifference shown towards her by the Northerners persists; she permanently loses her wolf, but she gains a "dog" instead. ("Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it.")

The other thing about Sansa is that she doesn't fit the mould of the ASOIAF underdog, at least not the way Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Bran and Dany do. She starts off the story as the perfect lady: raised in luxury by doting parents and a mother in awe of her beauty and talent, destined for greatness, lovely, graceful, accomplished, and resented by her gawky, plain "failure" of a sister for being the walking, talking embodiment of everything to which a lady should aspire to be (i.e. everything Arya is not). She's the gorgeous and talented queen bee who allows Jeyne to mock Arya for her ugliness, not the overlooked misfit keenly aware of her shortcomings. As beautiful, elegant, accomplished, socially savvy, versed in courtesies, and charming as she is, Sansa's just the type of person who should be queen, right? Tyrion even reflects while watching Sansa work a room at the PW that Sansa is good at "this," meaning the court life, and that she would have made Joffrey a fine queen. So what's the problem? The problem is that all of this points away from Sansa ever ending up as queen.

A recurring theme in the ASOIAF universe is not only the triumph of the underdog, but also the superlatively beautiful and talented characters perfectly suited for holding positions of power getting cut down in their prime, while others, less "ideal" characters who lack these superlative qualities of excellence come into positions of power they never expected to hold. Ned is plainer and less charismatic than his brother Brandon who was raised to rule Winterfell but long outlives Brandon and winds up with everything he was supposed to have. The vastly respected, just and wise Baelor Breakspear dies unexpectedly in Dunk and Egg, which will eventually pave the way for overlooked underdog Egg to take the throne. Sansa is not the underdog; she's the overachiever the true underdog will surpass or even outlive. She's the Robb to Arya's Jon.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Sansa at the end of the day is shut out from ruling not only Westeros but also Winterfell (she's disinherited in the books, so this seems likely), that could dovetail nicely with a SanSan endgame. After having been used and abused by a series of people because of her claim, after lamenting that no one would ever marry her for love, choosing to settle down with a socially inferior man who could never hope to marry her otherwise, who also happens to be the one man who loves her without any reference to her title or claim, could be a fitting conclusion to her story. The price of that happiness might be being "cast out of the kingdom" of the North, which is where things might be headed in Season 7 and 8 if Sansa's hinted-at rift with Jon manifests and if the indifference shown towards her by the Northerners persists; she permanently loses her wolf, but she gains a "dog" instead. ("Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it.")

About Sansa/Sandor, I avoid looking for clues in the books while I analyze the show and vice versa. Books are the books and the Show is the Show. But if you look at what is happening with Sansa in the show and you relate it with Sandor in the books, you need to notice the differences between TV Sandor and Book Sandor.

We do not have a Sandor POV in the books, therefore, we do not know if he loves her in the novels. And in the show, it seems they purposely avoided Sansan, or at least it almost non existent, and also in the show, if we are talking about love, he loves a different girl (in a not romantic way, of course) or at least relevant interviews tell us that.

Therefore, I have doubts about a Sansan ending in the show, even if the books have a different endgame. In other words, if a Sansan-Book-Ending is looking for clues, the worse place to look for them is the show

Edited September 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[FemmyV]

On 9/19/2016 at 6:22 PM, Minneapple said:

Sansa's arc is a little more unclear. She doesn't really want to do good on a grand scale, she hasn't expressed a desire to rule the realm or anything like that. Her desires have changed over time. So what does she want now? What is the trajectory of her arc? And I do believe that the showrunners have left this open-ended because they want to keep us guessing, and that fosters a lot of discussion. People see her actions differently because everyone interprets things differently, and that's perfectly fair. 

 

I think she wants to be Queen, I don't think her desires have changed all that much, but the reasons have evolved from wanting courtly glory, to wanting (what she thinks is) the security from commanding large armies, and being able to order your enemies' deaths, when you can. I think that what she has yet to realize is that if she were Queen, she'll have nothing to deal with but a lifelong series of enemies

Gendry coming back, just to die, would be heartbreaking. So would Jorah, Meera or any of the wolves, or Sam.

[anamika]

8 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Well to be fair I thought he was dumb as a box of hair for sending Melisandre away.  Considering everything he town criers is coming, he sends away the only person he's ever met or has access to, that can bring people back from the dead and have them remain human?!?!?!   Because a Smuggler cried?!?!?!  By all means execute her, when your  done with her, that being, after you survive doomsday.   He still likes to lean to the moral when he feels he can and that could end up (well he if he weren't special) being his undoing.

Considering that Jon did not use Melisandre to bring back Rickon and asks her not to do the same for him, I get the feeling that he does not think much of coming back to life this way. Mel's other powers maybe what's useful to Jon, but I don't think that's worth working with a child burning, Lord of Light fanatic.

Tyrion would, then, also be dumb as a box of hair for advising Dany to send away the devoted and loyal Jorah, for his betrayal - 'A ruler who kills those devoted to her is not a ruler who inspires devotion. And you are going to need to inspire devotion. Lots of it, if you are ever going to rule across the narrow sea. But you cannot have him by your side when you do'.

I don't think Jon is going to inspire any devotion among his men by working with someone who burned a child to death because she wanted the ice to melt. We saw how Stannis' men reacted. Davos, would have left Jon's service immediately and he has been extremely useful to Jon and in the fight against the Others. If Jon uses Melisandre and then executes her, that would be some LF level of thinking and I hope Jon does not stoop to that level.

Plus, what if Mel suddenly needs to burn some children to ward off the Others? Would Jon be okay with that? Where does one draw the line? Would it be worth winning against the Others if it takes burning children alive to do so? I think Stannis/Mel/LF/Cersei etc. would say yes and Jon/Davos/Ned/Brienne etc. would say no. As Davos says - 'If he commands you to burn children, your lord is evil'.

I like that Jon, thus far, does not cross a moral line in the sand - I don't think that makes him dumb - just very realistic, empathetic and good. There are very few such characters in GRRM's world. Will he still remain the same at the very end? It remains to be seen.

6 hours ago, Wouter said:

You write "any kind" of counterpart, but then you focus solely on one aspect of the Tyrion-Arya relationship in the outline: the romantic love. But not only does this romatic love only go so far (considering she is his captive at some point and he burns down her home - really romantic, that one, even more so than the Tyrion/Sansa marriage in the books), there are other aspects to it. The rivaly with another (Jon, in the outline, LF, in the books). Arya doesn't seem to return his love in the outline, Sansa is unresponsive to Tyrion's attempt to get her to like/trust him.

As I mentioned earlier, outline Tyrion loved outline Arya. Book Tyrion does not love Sansa. He was forced to marry her just like she was forced to marry him. He was carrying on with Shae while he was married to Sansa. As for Tyrion and Arya in the outline, all it says is that Tyrion 'befriends Sansa and her sister Arya (In KL) while he grows disenchanted with his family'. In the books, Arya escapes early - so Tyrion just befriends Sansa and continues to grow disenchanted with his family. His relationship with outline Sansa and book Sansa is more or less the same - the only difference being that he marries her instead of Joffrey.

In the outline Tyrion 'will besiege and burn Winterfell' while Arya and Cat escape.  Tyrion does not hold her captive again or woo her. And in the books it is Ramsey who besieges and burns Winterfell and has this whole fight with Jon over fake Arya.

At this point, remember that GRRM was also planning on implementing the 5 yr gap. Jon and Arya in the outline fall in love towards the end, when Arya is much older.  Tyrion also joins with the Starks at the end when he is exiled after being framed for everyone's death in KL. This is when we get the infamous Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle.   We see something similar in the books, with Tyrion being framed for Joffrey's murder - but instead of immediately joining up with the Starks, he joins up with Dany. This is one of the reasons - along with Arya being 11 yrs old-  that we may be getting a Jon-Dany-Tyrion love triangle .

Edited September 23, 2016 by anamika

[Skeeter22]

I wish that outline had never been leaked. It sounds like the plot of a 14 year-old's fanfic and I feel slightly embarrassed for GRRM any time people quote from it. I think even he has distanced himself from it, and I don't blame him. The Jon/Arya romance description always reminds me of the American adaptation of Les Cousins Dangereux. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Skeeter22

[TxanGoddess]

7 hours ago, Wouter said:

Sansa getting what she wants, but not at all in the way she wants it, would actually be a GRRM-esque outcome to her story, IMO. If Tyrion wins the throne in the end (a possibility if Jon and Dany end up dying or otherwise decline the throne in the end, especially if Tyrion turns out to be a dragonrider), who would likely be the queen? And would that be a triumph or a bitter fate, for that person?

Yes, it's a really long shot, and a Danny/Jon pairing ruling is the far more likely outcome, but I still feel it is something I could see GRRM doing.

I'm not sure I've read what you posted correctly.  Can you please unpack for me why a Jon/Dany pairing would in anyway preclude the possibility of a Tyrion/Sansa pairing or vice versa?  This isn't shipping partisanship, I really just don't think I understand you properly in the above paragraphs.

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

I like that Jon, thus far, does not cross a moral line in the sand - I don't think that makes him dumb - just very realistic, empathetic and good. There are very few such characters in GRRM's world. Will he still remain the same at the very end? It remains to be seen.

Do you know, I actually got the feeling that Jon was kind of tempted by Melisandre in a few different ways and sent her away for that reason.  I think he recognized the easiness of slipping into that Stannis mindset ... what is one person against the whole of humanity after all?  And that sending her away for him was like a preemptive move for his conscience.

Not that I agree he would ever actually get far enough as to accept her sacrificing someone for a victory, but I felt like what was important was that he thought he might.  He's certainly already exerpienced how compelling she can be. 

Either way I agree it wasn't a dumb move on his part.

[Minneapple]

30 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

 The Jon/Arya romance description always reminds me of the American adaptation of Les Cousins Dangereux. 

Not to mention, the books have deviated about as far from a Jon/Arya romance as could be possible. They see each other as siblings in every way. Even the show did a pretty good job of reinforcing that. But hey, how about that outline, huh? I mean I guess their gazes could meet across the field and they could suddenly realize they're in love after not seeing each other for so long. The fanfic, it writes itself.

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

 

I think she wants to be Queen, I don't think her desires have changed all that much, but the reasons have evolved from wanting courtly glory, to wanting (what she thinks is) the security from commanding large armies, and being able to order your enemies' deaths, when you can. I think that what she has yet to realize is that if she were Queen, she'll have nothing to deal with but a lifelong series of enemies

I agree, sort of. I don't think 11-year-old Sansa really wanted courtly glory; she just wanted to wear pretty dresses and a crown on her head and act like a proper lady and live in a place where everyone acted in a courtly manner. But I do agree that now she still doesn't really know what it means to be queen; she just likes having power and not answering to anybody and verrrry possibly being able to manipulate people. I've always speculated that she would wind up like a mini-Cersei and I still think it could happen. 

[Cherpumple]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

We do not have a Sandor POV in the books, therefore, we do not know if he loves her in the novels. And in the show, it seems they purposely avoided Sansan, or at least it almost non existent, and also in the show, if we are talking about love, he loves a different girl (in a not romantic way, of course) or at least relevant interviews tell us that.

I agree. The Hound is my favorite character in the entire series, and I've been fervently hoping for a SanSan reunion before the end. It doesn't even need to be a romantic ending- he could be the captain of her guard, save her from some peril, reunite her with Arya, or something else. I just want them to meet up again..... in the books. In the show, I think any reunion would be awkward and Sansa would probably be cold or dismissive towards him, since there's been no indication that she's given him a second thought since he left KL, and as you said, D&D have deliberately squashed as much ship-bait as possible. His interactions with Arya, on the other hand, have exuded chemistry (platonic) and have been highly entertaining, so it wouldn't surprise me if the showrunners played up their potential reunion instead.

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

It sounds like the plot of a 14 year-old's fanfic and I feel slightly embarrassed for GRRM any time people quote from it. I think even he has distanced himself from it, and I don't blame him.The Jon/Arya romance description always reminds me of the American adaptation of Les Cousins Dangereux.

To be frank, most of GRRM's romances in the series read like badly written fanfiction. He seems to be enamored with Sansa/Sandor and all it's cliche 'Beauty and Beast' tropes (Maybe because he worked on that show in the eighties...) and he loves the forced seduction tropes found commonly in bodice rippers of the seventies and eighties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_seduction

Jaime and Brienne is slightly better but Jaime being a dick, sort of ruins it for me. Jon and Ygritte is not so bad because Jon is in general a decent guy, but there is an element of coercion there as well in the books, which often gets overlooked because the one doing the coercion is a woman. Sam/Gilly is okay, but the whole 'Fat Pink Mast' ruins it for me. Oh, and his sex scenes are some of the worst written passages in the books.

Edited September 23, 2016 by anamika

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

They see each other as siblings in every way. Even the show did a pretty good job of reinforcing that. But hey, how about that outline, huh?

Yes, but their feelings have been shown to have tons more intensity than any other sib pairing and many non-sib sexual pairings. In the books, Jon Snow did abandon the NW vows and got killed because he was going to war to rescue Arya. No matter how much the show veered from that and for whatever reasons, it makes no sense to diminish that, for the books.

By the time Season 8 comes around, Arya will be about the age Dany was at when she married Drogo, if not older. Who knows what's in store?

Edited September 23, 2016 by FemmyV

[Eyes High]

14 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

And in the show, it seems they purposely avoided Sansan, or at least it almost non existent, and also in the show, if we are talking about love, he loves a different girl (in a not romantic way, of course) or at least relevant interviews tell us that.

Therefore, I have doubts about a Sansan ending in the show, even if the books have a different endgame.

The show does seem to have downplayed SanSan, but there could be reasons for that. Besides, Jaime and Brienne barely said two words about the other during their separation between Season 4 and Season 6, but the minute they reunited the writers reminded us in fairly unsubtle fashion that they're actually madly in love and desperately want to bang. If the show goes the SanSan route, which I doubt will happen unless the books go in that direction, I expect a similar treatment.

12 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

I'm not sure I've read what you posted correctly.  Can you please unpack for me why a Jon/Dany pairing would in anyway preclude the possibility of a Tyrion/Sansa pairing or vice versa?  This isn't shipping partisanship, I really just don't think I understand you properly in the above paragraphs.

I think what Wouter is getting at is that if Tyrion does end up king, Sansa is Tyrion's most likely queen.

10 hours ago, anamika said:

To be frank, most of GRRM's romances in the series read like badly written fanfiction. He seems to be enamored with Sansa/Sandor and all it's cliche 'Beauty and Beast' tropes (Maybe because he worked on that show in the eighties...) and he loves the forced seduction tropes found commonly in bodice rippers of the seventies and eighties.

Yes, yes, yes! GRRM's understanding of romance begins and ends with shitty romance novels from the 70s and 80s. Sandor/Sansa plays out like the beginnings of a classic shitty romance novel, as do pretty much all the romances. The innocent, maidenly princess who sees beneath the scarred, fearsome exterior of a cynical, lowborn soldier through to his tender, wounded heart? Romance novel. The innocent, virginal white (of course) princess sold to a feared desert warrior chieftain who rapes her into loving him? Romance novel. The stubbornly innocent, decent and purehearted woman who awakens in the antihero's breast a reminder of the good man he could be and who sways him with the power of her virtue from his entanglement with a coldhearted seductress? Romance novel. The spirited, beautiful noblewoman trapped in a loveless betrothal causes the devastatingly handsome warrior prince, who is irresistibly drawn to her beauty and her anachronistic aversion to traditional gender roles, to cast aside all duty and honour to claim her for his own? Say it with me: romance novel.

Those types of romance novels don't get written as often anymore, since they usually revolve around the hero repeatedly assaulting the heroine until she realizes she's into it, which is basically what happens with Dany and Drogo during their marriage: he rapes her several times and eventually when she cries out during sex "it wasn't always out of pain" (or words to that effect), and this is sold as (and viewed by GRRM as) great romance. Most people can't get away with writing that shit anymore...unless they're GRRM, apparently, although admittedly sci-fi/fantasy writing is home to a lot of weird and offensive shit in the sex/romance department (looking at you, Piers Anthony). I remember reading many years ago a SFF novel (in a series) where the title character falls in love and later marries her surrogate father, who had been in love with her mother in the previous novel, and that's pretty tame on the SFF weirdness scale.

8 hours ago, FemmyV said:

By the time Season 8 comes around, Arya will be about the age Dany was at when she married Drogo, if not older. Who knows what's in store?

Also, GRRM has expressed anxiety a few times about how slowly the books seem to be progressing and in particular wanting Arya to hit puberty. That doesn't necessarily have anything to do with romantic Jon/Arya, but it seems a little strange as a focus point if Arya's arc is only going to be focused on murder and revenge.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

WOTW:  It looks like there's not actually going to be a naval battle; rather, it'll be a land battle filmed near the shore (amphibious landing, perhaps?).  As a naval warfare enthusiast, that's a bit disappointing, but it did cross my mind that it'd be rather expensive to film a naval battle on the show (even movies rarely do that).

Also, in the comments, it's noted that on LSR the commenters are speculating more about filming in an Essosi location, as apparently the extras for the three days' filming at Trujillo Castle were told they're going to be playing slaves.

[Oscirus]

On 9/13/2016 at 4:40 PM, SeanC said:

Cat saw only "Petyr" (the sweet, gentle, boy who truly loved her) and people like Tyrion see only "Littlefinger" (the self-interested and calculating conniver). It's people like Tyrion and Cat who had illusions about LF, since both characters only ever saw one side of him.

In season 2, Tyrion played both sides of his personality ( the queen mustn't know, get to see your beloved Cat), he was aware they were there and I believe that Cat had to have known about the conniving side of LF due to his actions with her sister, she just chose to ignore it because she thought he would be loyal to her. Point being that LF isn't really misunderstood as much as he's ignored/underestimated, because up to this point, there have been bigger fish to fry.

I don't really think that Jon vs LF is going to be a thing. The season ended with LF declaring his intentions for the iron throne. Jon has nothing that Little finger wants. As a matter of fact, he only stands to benefit from Jon being KITN if he can convince Sansa to go to KL with him since there's no way that Jon wouldn't back Sansa.   

I'd also be shocked if LF is dead this season. Every other major villain has been safe until they were as powerful as they could hope to be before they were finally taken down. I'm going to guess that LF winds up on the throne before he dies.

I'm still thinking that the best way to put Dany in peril is to somehow separate her from Tyrion since he's clearly the brains of that operation. Not to mention I think if Tyrion is an actual dragon rider that he needs to start bonding with Viserion this season and what better way to bond then to have him rescue Tyrion from peril.

Sansa a good negotiator? I'm not seeing it. She hasn't held a successful negotiation with anybody other then maybe LF.

I still think we get an early season(possibly episode 2 or 3) Stark reunion before they finally separate for good.

[SeanC]

Just now, Oscirus said:

I don't really think that Jon vs LF is going to be a thing. The season ended with LF declaring his intentions for the iron throne. Jon has nothing that Little finger wants. As a matter of fact, he only stands to benefit from Jon being KITN if he can convince Sansa to go to KL with him since there's no way that Jon wouldn't back Sansa.   

You're not actually quoting me, you're quoting Eyes Wide High.

Jon very much has something Littlefinger wants:  the North.  Littlefinger wants to rule all of Westeros.

Quote

I'd also be shocked if LF is dead this season. Every other major villain has been safe until they were as powerful as they could hope to be before they were finally taken down. I'm going to guess that LF winds up on the throne before he dies.

With people like Daenerys invading, there's no way Littlefinger could ever take the throne.  As well, with the White Walker invasion all but assured to dominate the final season, Littlefinger taking the throne would at that point be nothing more than a sideshow, not something for people to focus on.  So that plot really must resolve this season.

[OhOkayWhat]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Besides, Jaime and Brienne barely said two words about the other during their separation between Season 4 and Season 6, ....

Yes, such a tiny separation scene, it is barely there, but it is there. It exists.

Lets check some numbers:

-Jaime and Brienne relationship: around 50 minutes (season 2,3,4)+ the tiny separation scene (season 5)

-Arya and Sandor relationship: around 40 minutes (season 3,4) +2 relatively long separation scenes (season 5,6) + a tiny reference to Arya in Sandor dialogue (season 6) + a small reference to their relationship (Brienne and Sansa dialogue in season 6)

-Sansa and Sandor relationship: around 20 minutes (season 1,2) + 0 scenes of Sansa thinking about him and only 2 references in Sandor-Arya journey that are more related to Arya herself than her older sister.

-And with Sandor-Sansa we are talking about 4 seasons of separation between season 2 and a hypothetical reunion in season 7. With Brienne-Jaime it was only 1 season of separation, with Arya-Hound only 2 seasons and in every season of separation they include 1 important scene about their relationship.

-Also, within the 20 minutes of Sansa-Sandor, many times he is just standing there. Certainly, he mostly an action-character, but if talk about the dialogue between both characters? around 5 minutes , or 4 minutes, if you include the fact that one of the scenes was deleted and included later in the dvd and/or blue ray.

Therefore the Sansan relationship is barely there, almost non existent, in the other hand, Jaime-Brienne and Sandor-Arya are very intense relationships, add this to the numbers I mentioned before and you will have a bigger picture.

In other words, J-B and S-A in the show are very different cases than Show Sansan, and I doubt than even 2 minutes of Bran talking to other character about Sansa loving Sandor and vice versa will solve the lost screentime problem, if we are thinking about the average audience.

Edited September 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

0 scenes of Sansa thinking about him

Or she's been thinking about him the whole time and just hasn't said anything.

You laugh, but consider how the writers' handling of Sansa's KL arc was pretty much "oh, she was learning all kinds of stuff from these people around her offscreen", I wouldn't put it past them.

As far as how they've handled the characters apart, the one moment that always sticks out for me is the awkward way Brienne's dialogue is stage-managed in 602 to avoid saying that Arya was traveling with the Hound.  That may just have been the writers trying to keep the conversation on track, but they're actively straining there to avoid mentioning the Hound or his "death"; I struggle to imagine what sort of reaction she would have to hearing his name that would require that, but there it is. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by SeanC

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

You laugh, but consider how the writers' handling of Sansa's KL arc was pretty much "oh, she was learning all kinds of stuff from these people around her offscreen", I wouldn't put it past them.

I have my doubts about it. Lets check the issue:

A- the writers wrote Sansa learning very few "game" skills in KL on screen.

B- the writers wrote Sansa using very few "game" skills post-KL on screen.

It could be a problem if she suddenly used lots of skills within the seasons post-KL, but it did not happen on screen.

The last part is bold letters because interviews are a very tricky thing. Even with the showrunners, it is possible they just "navigate" the waves of questions and only answer them with tricky-weird phrases. But, if we talk about what the audience watched on screen, Sansa narrative about that issue is coherent.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

is the awkward way Brienne's dialogue is stage-managed in 602 to avoid saying that Arya was traveling with the Hound

It is not so awkward if you do not expect Brienne mention him by name. And people already explained why : it makes sense that Brienne does not want to worry Sansa. And if we make an analysis of the narrative decision, it is also coherent: it reinforces the relationship of Arya-Sandor without spending more time than the minutes they already used, and avoiding making Brienne to do something that does not make a lot of sense (mentioning him by name).

(Note: I totally forgot about the B-S 6x02 conversation until you mentioned it. I just added it to my previous screentime-list commentary. And I was so sure that I was good at Arya-Sandor references in the show... you are better!)

Edited September 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

Also, in the comments, it's noted that on LSR the commenters are speculating more about filming in an Essosi location, as apparently the extras for the three days' filming at Trujillo Castle were told they're going to be playing slaves.

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

is the awkward way Brienne's dialogue is stage-managed in 602 to avoid saying that Arya was traveling with the Hound

It is not so awkward if you do not expect Brienne mention him by name. And people already explained why : it makes sense that Brienne does not want to worry Sansa. And if we make an analysis of the narrative decision, it is also coherent: it reinforces the relationship of Arya-Sandor without spending more time than the minutes they already used, and avoiding making Brienne to do something that does not make a lot of sense (mentioning him by name).

It makes no sense at all. If you're in someone's service, like Brienne put herself to Sansa, you don't go around withholding information because you don't want to worry them. Sansa is the superior, she is the decision-maker, and Brienne undermines that ability.

The first time Brienne encountered Sansa, she had just seen Arya and failed completely to mention it. At that time, there was reason to hold her tongue because she couldn't be sure about LF. But LF was no where around the second time.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Or she's been thinking about him the whole time and just hasn't said anything.

You laugh, but consider how the writers' handling of Sansa's KL arc was pretty much "oh, she was learning all kinds of stuff from these people around her offscreen", I wouldn't put it past them. 

Neither would I. If Sansa does throw herself into Sandor's arms and confess that she missed him horribly since Blackwater and has loved him desperately all this time, it will make for some amusing viewing.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

Pretty much. Seriously, though, the best part of that scene where Team Dany sails for Westeros was the hope--nay, the unspoken promise--that the show was going to move on from Essos. What gives, writers? Not cool.

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

It makes no sense at all. If you're in someone's service, like Brienne put herself to Sansa, you don't go around withholding information because you don't want to worry them. Sansa is the superior, she is the decision-maker, and Brienne undermines that ability.

Here, we see one of the characteristics of Brienne. She wants to be a good knight, but she also thinks "outside the box".

This is very clear with her meditations about the leadership issues in the early season 5.

Her sense of knighthood duty does not suppress her sense of responsibility (this issue is a fundamental part of the Jaime-Brienne story arc). She realizes two facts about the girl who is in front of her: a) she is the Lady who took her as her knight, and b) this Lady at the same time, is a really traumatized girl.

The first fact does not magically makes the second fact disappear, therefore, she makes her own decision about this, even if it is not a very conventional one. This event, if we see it from this angle, makes her a more interesting character.

Edited September 24, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Oscirus]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

You're not actually quoting me, you're quoting Eyes Wide High.

Jon very much has something Littlefinger wants:  the North.  Littlefinger wants to rule all of Westeros.

My bad, no idea how I did that.

If LF has Sansa he can rule the North through her since Jon would be inclined to listen to her.  His fighting Jon is a waste of time and resources.

 

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

With people like Daenerys invading, there's no way Littlefinger could ever take the throne.  As well, with the White Walker invasion all but assured to dominate the final season, Littlefinger taking the throne would at that point be nothing more than a sideshow, not something for people to focus on.  So that plot really must resolve this season.

It would be strange if they spent 6 seasons building up LF's quest for the throne just for him to wind up defeated in some battle with Jon.  I can imagine any number of ways that he can take the throne even with Dany's presence . Especially with the emergence of the white walkers. 
As for the final season, who's to say there can't be a two front war? 1. Defeat the white walkers. 2. Getting the right person on the throne. Show is called game of thrones, if the final season's just one big zombie fight, I'd find that to be quite the disappointment.

If the book didn't happen I don't even think anybody would even be thinking about Sansan.  With the exception of covering Sansa with his cloak there hasn't been anything that even hinted at a romance between those two on the show.

Quote

Also, in the comments, it's noted that on LSR the commenters are speculating more about filming in an Essosi location, as apparently the extras for the three days' filming at Trujillo Castle were told they're going to be playing slaves.

Interesting. So slavery returns to Essos? It appears that Dany gets betrayed by the Second Sons.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Oscirus

[Hecate7]

On 6/27/2016 at 4:35 AM, arjumand said:

Well, doesn't Baby Bear Lyanna deserve credit for Jon being named KitN?? Ugh, the bolded part...didn't Jon tell her the battle would have been lost if not for her and the Knights of the Vale? Hell, he called her the Lady of Winterfell and gave her the Lord's bedroom. What is the "everything" else that Sansa has done for Jon that requires acknowledgment?

OMG, what has Jon done to Sansa specifically that would cause him to be untrustworthy?

What he said to her in private, he failed to repeat in public. That's the only thing I can think of, that he did wrong, but it was a pretty big blooper.

[SeanC]

Per some reports, the production has directed the cast not to pose for pictures with fans while in Belfast, so expect a major decline in such photos (and probably a corresponding increase in paparazzi-style photos).  Maybe they're trying to minimize word on who is filming when and with who? (though this isn't going to stop people from tweeting about seeing groups of people together, or the aforesaid images taken at a distance)

[Wouter]

On 22-9-2016 at 11:12 PM, Eyes High said:

[1]Book Sansa no longer wants to be queen of Westeros, although I think the idea of being queen in the North might yet appeal to her. More to the point, Sansa ending up queen after she helped contribute towards Ned's downfall because of a bid to preserve her shot of becoming queen the last time around would be akin to Lysa ending up happily married to LF for many years after having murdered Jon Arryn to make that union possible. GRRM devised an appropriately ironic end for Lysa. I'm guessing he's not done with Sansa, either.

[2]AGOT seemed to hint at Arya becoming queen and not Sansa, and the outline seems to be pointing in that direction as well (torrid Jon/Arya romance plus R+L=J equals King Jon/Queen Arya endgame?), although it's still anyone's guess. If I had to guess, Sansa's story will end with Sansa either 1) dying with or because of LF or 2) deciding to live in happy obscurity with Sandor.

[3]GRRM seems to have been planning on killing Sansa off in the 1993 outline, as suggested by the line stating that Outline Jaime kills everyone ahead of him in the line of succession to claim the throne (coupled with the tidbits that Outline Sansa is the mother to the heir to the throne and that there are no further mentions of Sansa in the outline past this point). GRRM did an interview the year before the outline was leaked where he said that he's always known what Tyrion, Jon and Arya's arcs were going to be and did another interview where he said that he's known the broad strokes of the ending since 1991. It's safe to assume that those broad strokes included the identities of the endgame occupants (or occupant) of the Iron Throne.

I find it very difficult to believe that GRRM intends to have Sansa end up as queen if he was planning on killing her off in 1993, two years after he came up with the series' ending. Whatever her role is in the endgame, assuming she lives that long (and I'm not convinced that she will), it will have nothing to do with whoever is going to wind up with Winterfell (Bran, probably), whoever is going to sit the Iron Throne (Jon and/or Dany, wildcard Jon/Arya), whatever Tyrion's role in all this is going to be if he survives (Hand of the King/Queen?), etc. It doesn't mean she won't survive, but she won't be in any significant position of power at the end of the day of the type that GRRM would have had in mind in 1991 when formulating the broad strokes of the ending.

[...]

[4]A recurring theme in the ASOIAF universe is not only the triumph of the underdog, but also the superlatively beautiful and talented characters perfectly suited for holding positions of power getting cut down in their prime, while others, less "ideal" characters who lack these superlative qualities of excellence come into positions of power they never expected to hold. Ned is plainer and less charismatic than his brother Brandon who was raised to rule Winterfell but long outlives Brandon and winds up with everything he was supposed to have. The vastly respected, just and wise Baelor Breakspear dies unexpectedly in Dunk and Egg, which will eventually pave the way for overlooked underdog Egg to take the throne. Sansa is not the underdog; she's the overachiever the true underdog will surpass or even outlive. She's the Robb to Arya's Jon.

 

[1] Book-Sansa was an 11-year old girl - yes she disobeyed and blabbed to Cersei, and she is to blame for that, but she hardly made a conscious choice to get her father capture and/or executed. She did not understand the consequences of her actions. You might as well say that Bran deserves a very bad ending, because he disobeyed an order not to climb and he was pushed by Jaime as a result - this had far-reaching consequences as well, chief of which is Catelyn meeting Tyrion when she would have travelled together with Ned otherwise. I do not get in any way the impression that GRRM considers Sansa's actions to be unforgivable, or in any way comparable to what Lysa and similar characters did in the books.

Notably, the show left this part out completely. If it was crucial to the way GRRM sees the character, it's unlikely this would happen, especially since GRRM wrote that particular script himself.

[2] Arya as queen seems unlikely. Foreshadowing (in the books, chiefly at the House of the Undying) and logic points to a Dany/Jon pairing, which would solve many problems (north/south pairing, alliance against the Others, as well as uniting the disparate Targaryen claims) in one go. Jon will have a difficult time claiming the throne if Dany does not openly accept his Targaryen lineage, so going it alone without Dany (or with her as an opponent) is unlikely to result in him gaining the Iron Throne (for most of the south he would be a northern invader and pretender, not unlike the reception Aegon is getting in parts of the south). And Arya and Jon grew up as sister and brother, and close ones at that. It's all just unlikely. Besides, I doubt Arya would even want such a thing.

[3] The outline only really covers the first act of the trilogy, as it was supposed to be at the time. And besides the ever-increasing number of books, GRRM has also changed his plans considerably since then. Arya does not have the role she had in the outline, not even close really. So does Jaime, and Tyrion. Why would Sansa's role be set in stone? And if his plan was all along to have Tyrion on the throne in the end, he could have planned a Tyrion/Arya pairing at that time - before he split the character into two Stark girls. I'm not saying it's likely, only that it is possible.

[4] This one is debatable. Dany is super beautiful and uniquely gifted in a magical way (her waking of the dragons, and control over at least one). Jon is certainly talented - book-Jon is intelligent, a good fighter, an effective diplomat and a natural leader. At Castle Black, he was actually the privileged one with his prior training and his relation with Mormont. Tyrion is highly intelligent, well-read and had lots of wealth at his disposal for much of his life. Yet, all three all have some underdog element(s): Dany started out as a beggar on the run, sold by her brother. Jon as a bastard stuck in an order of convicts. Tyrion was hated by much of his closest kin, and as a dwarf his social standing was weak in spite of his family name.

Sansa, then, is talented and privileged in some ways: very good at courtly ways, good looking and with the right family name. But she is an underdog in other ways: she is one of the most "normal" characters, with no super-heroic qualities. She cannot fight, she doesn't lead armies, she isn't a super-assassin who can hide herself at will, she can't even survive travelling through an unsafe environment on her own. And from the end of book 1, her social status was that of a pariah at court.

Yet, it is highly likely that Dany and/or Jon will take that throne, and if it is someone else at the end then Tyrion is as good a guess as any. As far as the Iron Throne goes, he would be just as unlikely as Egg is, considering his possible Targaryen blood (and likely dragonriding) isn't even suspected at this point. And did I mention that he is a dwarf? Ironically, the latter might help to be a dragonrider as he is lighter than he would otherwise be, so even a fairly young dragon might be able to take off with him.

As you point out, book-Sansa doesn't want to be queen of Westeros (and she doesn't want to go back to KL, either) anymore. Ending up as Tyrion's queen is not a triump for her; it's a bastardised version of something she thought she wanted in book 1. Tyrion is very much not the handsome prince on a white horse, even if he does ride a dragon he's still a dwarf with his nose missing, and still a Lannister who once wanted to use her to take Winterfell.

If your idea is "GRRM will not give Sansa what she wants because she is partly responsible for her fathers downfall", then wouldn't her pairing up with Sandor be unlikely as that would be far closer to what she wants now?

On 23-9-2016 at 3:07 AM, anamika said:

As I mentioned earlier, outline Tyrion loved outline Arya. Book Tyrion does not love Sansa. He was forced to marry her just like she was forced to marry him. He was carrying on with Shae while he was married to Sansa. As for Tyrion and Arya in the outline, all it says is that Tyrion 'befriends Sansa and her sister Arya (In KL) while he grows disenchanted with his family'. In the books, Arya escapes early - so Tyrion just befriends Sansa and continues to grow disenchanted with his family. His relationship with outline Sansa and book Sansa is more or less the same - the only difference being that he marries her instead of Joffrey.

In the outline Tyrion 'will besiege and burn Winterfell' while Arya and Cat escape.  Tyrion does not hold her captive again or woo her. And in the books it is Ramsey who besieges and burns Winterfell and has this whole fight with Jon over fake Arya.

At this point, remember that GRRM was also planning on implementing the 5 yr gap. Jon and Arya in the outline fall in love towards the end, when Arya is much older.  Tyrion also joins with the Starks at the end when he is exiled after being framed for everyone's death in KL. This is when we get the infamous Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle.   We see something similar in the books, with Tyrion being framed for Joffrey's murder - but instead of immediately joining up with the Starks, he joins up with Dany. This is one of the reasons - along with Arya being 11 yrs old-  that we may be getting a Jon-Dany-Tyrion love triangle .

 

Book Tyrion was not forced to marry Sansa, but pressured and manipulated into doing it. Tywin did not order him outright, and even less force him at swordpoint. If Tyrion really did not want it, he could have done several things (take Tywin up on the offer of Lancel, point-blank refusal, arranging Sansa's escape, leaking info to Tyrells and/or Sansa,...). Tyrion saw just enough of an upside for him to not resist, partly because Tywin succesfully convinced him that not a single women would ever willingly marry him and that was his only chance to get a good match.

The Sansa/Tyrion relationship is very different in outline and books. In the books, Tyrion does not actually befriend Sansa; she is already a captive when they meet and allthough he protects her a couple of times, they never talk in any detail and Sansa certainly does not open up to him - even before the marriage. That they marry is not a small detail that is different, not least because of the hostile way in which Tyrion did it (colluding with Tywin and Cersei to cross her plans with the Tyrells) and because of the hostile way Sansa reacted. In the books, the marriage also still stands.

The adversial relation (and yet, with a form of respect or occasional kindness mixed in) is not too dissimilar from what is described in the outline. Tyrion befriends and even loves Arya, but he besieges and burns Winterfell while she escapes? Talk about a love/hate relationship. In ADWD, Tyrion shows signs that he isn't over losing Sansa (and her reaction to him). In spite of everything, he craves her recognition.

Dany and Tyrion - the show may have been hinting at it, though it seems unlikely to me that Dany (who likes the Khal Drogo, physically imposing types) would be interested. He can hardly force her to marry him. And he is still a dwarf who is missing a nose. Maybe, if Dany believes herself to be fertile, believes Tyrion to have Targaryen blood (likely if he does ride a dragon) and believes all the other Targaryens are dead (so, rejects Aegon's claimes and does not know about Jon), she could see it as her duty to her family, though. Even then, marrying someone else and have Tyrion do the same may produce a better shot at viable, dragonriding offspring.

Ramsay only burns Winterfell in the books (it was ser Rodrik who besieged it when Theon held it). And he hardly has a fight over fake Arya, as Jon does not get the chance to come even near him. It seems that book-Stannis has this covered, and if anything it was Theon who took fake Arya away from Ramsay.

On 23-9-2016 at 4:07 AM, TxanGoddess said:

I'm not sure I've read what you posted correctly.  Can you please unpack for me why a Jon/Dany pairing would in anyway preclude the possibility of a Tyrion/Sansa pairing or vice versa?  This isn't shipping partisanship, I really just don't think I understand you properly in the above paragraphs.

I was talking about the Iron Throne - if Jon and/or Dany hold the Iron Throne, Tyrion cannot be (ruling) king and Sansa is not needed as a (non-ruling) queen. 

Tyrion could still be lord of Casterly Rock, or even the Prince of Dragonstone or whatever title Dany would give him, but in that case there is far less need for him to have Sansa or even a wife at all. For the Iron Throne, it's crucial that there is an undisputed heir. In Casterly Rock, a successor to Tyrion could be named with the Iron Throne guarding that the succession proceeds as planned after Tyrion's death. Moreover, for the Iron Throne (with Dany and Jon out of the picture in this hypothetical scenario, for whatever reason) a match between a southern king and a northern queen (or vice versa) would be recommended to make sure the north falls in line. Rebelling against Ned Starks grandsons would be harder than rebelling against, say, the offspring of a Lannister-Martell union. 

I don't consider Sansa/Tyrion to be a romantic match. The way it happened, it was all business (from one end). If the marriage gets rekindled, it would be business again, this time probably through negotiation/pressure rather than one side dictating the other at swordpoint.

There is an indication in the books that Dany will love Jon, though so far not much to indicate that Jon would return such feelings (bar Dany obviously being attractive). It does not seem an unlikely pairing, though. If both survive, and are fertile (a bit of a question mark for both, though the show seems to have a fully-functional flesh-and-blood Jon rather than something like Victarion's burning hand) than there is only one logical endgame IMO. The match would be politically excellent, too.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Wouter

[Advance35]

Quote

As for the final season, who's to say there can't be a two front war? 1. Defeat the white walkers. 2. Getting the right person on the throne. Show is called game of thrones, if the final season's just one big zombie fight, I'd find that to be quite the disappointment.

Common speculation is that The Iron Throne won't even be a storyline in Season 8.  That it'll be everyone alive toy soldiering behind Jon Snow-Targaryen and Danerys as they lead the climatic battle against the White Walkers.   If this is the route the show takes, I feel like the final season won't be held in regard.   I feel like the general audience was pulled in by the political intrigue, the more sci-fi aspects is just something that's tolerated.  Or maybe I'm projecting.

[Wouter]

7 or so episodes solely fighting against the WW seems a bit much, both for the budget as for keeping the attention of the public.

Though to be sure, there may also be an aftermath that will not be solved by adding an epilogue of 5 minutes. Feuds that have been broken up by the invasion, may simply restart in some cases.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

Book Tyrion was not forced to marry Sansa, but pressured and manipulated into doing it. Tywin did not order him outright, and even less force him at swordpoint. If Tyrion really did not want it, he could have done several things (take Tywin up on the offer of Lancel, point-blank refusal, arranging Sansa's escape, leaking info to Tyrells and/or Sansa,...). Tyrion saw just enough of an upside for him to not resist, partly because Tywin succesfully convinced him that not a single women would ever willingly marry him and that was his only chance to get a good match.

The Sansa/Tyrion relationship is very different in outline and books. In the books, Tyrion does not actually befriend Sansa; she is already a captive when they meet and allthough he protects her a couple of times, they never talk in any detail and Sansa certainly does not open up to him - even before the marriage. That they marry is not a small detail that is different, not least because of the hostile way in which Tyrion did it (colluding with Tywin and Cersei to cross her plans with the Tyrells) and because of the hostile way Sansa reacted. In the books, the marriage also still stands.

But he did not LOVE her. Again, why do you keep comparing Tyrion/Sansa of the books to Tyrion/Arya in the outline - where Tyrion falls in love with an older Arya towards the end? Book Tyrion was not given much maneuvering room regarding Sansa and he also wanted Winterfell. That's why he married her. Not because he loved her. In the outline he befriends Sansa and he does so in the books as well. You may not think so, but in the Vale, Sansa thinks that she would escape to Tyrion if he was alive, counting him even above Jon. Why would she think that if Tyrion had not befriended her in KL? Meanwhile she is dreaming of kissing the Hound.

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

The adversial relation (and yet, with a form of respect or occasional kindness mixed in) is not too dissimilar from what is described in the outline. Tyrion befriends and even loves Arya, but he besieges and burns Winterfell while she escapes? Talk about a love/hate relationship. In ADWD, Tyrion shows signs that he isn't over losing Sansa (and her reaction to him). In spite of everything, he craves her recognition.

Again, Tyrion loves Arya in the outline - probably towards the end, when she is no longer 9 years old. He does not love Sansa in the books - I don't get how anyone thinks that he loves Sansa in the books. He realizes that she finds him repulsive and gives her space while he does his own thing with Shae. Ramsey Bolton burns down Winterfell and targets Arya in the current books. If you keep insisting that book Sansa/Tyrion is some kind of counterpart to outline Arya/Tyrion I can as well insist that Ramsay/fake Arya is a counterpart to Tyrion/Arya and that the Jon/Arya/Tyrion ove triangle has currently manifested as the Jon/fake Arya/Ramsey love triangle.

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

Dany and Tyrion - the show may have been hinting at it, though it seems unlikely to me that Dany (who likes the Khal Drogo, physically imposing types) would be interested. He can hardly force her to marry him. And he is still a dwarf who is missing a nose.

Ramsay only burns Winterfell in the books (it was ser Rodrik who besieged it when Theon held it). And he hardly has a fight over fake Arya, as Jon does not get the chance to come even near him. It seems that book-Stannis has this covered, and if anything it was Theon who took fake Arya away from Ramsay.

But Sansa falls for him despite her type being the Hound and Loras and Willas? She was already repulsed by Tyrion. A love triangle does not mean that Dany should fall for Tyrion as well. In the outline, Jon and Arya fall in love with each other, while Tyrion falls for Arya. I foresee the same here with Jon and Dany falling for each other, with Tyrion falling for Dany.

You are nitpicking over the finer details of Ramsey only burning and not besieging Winterfell and yet keep arguing that book Sansa/Tyrion is an outline Arya/Tyrion counterpart despite there being so many differences. Ramsey writes a letter, threatening Jon to hand over Arya to him and Jon abandons his oaths to go save his sister and attack Ramsey - getting shanked in the process. I would say that is a significant squabble between the two of them over Arya. If I were really reaching like you are doing with the Sansa-Arya comparisons, I could say that we have a Jon/Arya/Ramsey love triangle.

3 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Common speculation is that The Iron Throne won't even be a storyline in Season 8.  That it'll be everyone alive toy soldiering behind Jon Snow-Targaryen and Danerys as they lead the climatic battle against the White Walkers.   If this is the route the show takes, I feel like the final season won't be held in regard.   I feel like the general audience was pulled in by the political intrigue, the more sci-fi aspects is just something that's tolerated.  Or maybe I'm projecting.

IMO, this is currently not true, considering that Hardhome remains one of the most popular (Critically and with viewers)  and beloved episodes of the series - it is one of the highest rated episodes of the series on imdb - and that episode is just 20 minutes of ice zombies slaughtering Wildlings. The Door, again ending with ice zombies, was the third most popular episode (Coming in after the finale and Battle of the Bastards) last season. The show has also become more popular, Emmy winning and increasing in ratings as KL has become progressively boring with the Sparrow plot while the North has become consistently more interesting.

As a fantasy fan, I am glad for the KL soap opera drama on the show (Even though I find it rather uninteresting) because it did help the show survive. The US is a country where the highest rated shows tend to be Desperate Housewives, Scandal, Gray's anatomy, Empire, Reality TV and all those never ending procedurals. Sci-fi and fantasy TV shows tend to die a quick death - hence why the Scifi channel is in a pathetic condition. I watch 12 monkeys on Scifi and it's a cleverly written, little time travel show and it's ratings are miserable. I am constantly waiting for it to get cancelled.  I am glad GOT escaped the fate of wonderfully written HBO shows like Carnivale.

Like honest trailers jokes, Game of Thrones managed to trick the non-nerds to watch a fantasy show using the KL soap opera (And booobs) and it's all good for us nerds because we managed to get the fantasy - though I do sorely miss the direwolves and all the warging. But it also means that we get folks who are not fans of fantasy complaining about there being too much fantasy on the show - well, tough luck! Asoiaf is high fantasy and it's only going to become more so as the series barrels towards the end. As GRRM mentioned, the title of the series reminds us that the real story is at the Wall. Luckily, zombies seem to be pretty popular right now. Both Jon Snow and Dany are popular characters as well and Drogon even made it to the Emmy Award show!

Edited September 25, 2016 by anamika

[FemmyV]

On 9/23/2016 at 11:09 PM, OhOkayWhat said:

The first fact does not magically makes the second fact disappear, therefore, she makes her own decision about this, even if it is not a very conventional one. This event, if we see it from this angle, makes her a more interesting character.

You see a more interesting character; I see a purposefully crafted tool, in an attempt to hide story changes made by a second writer.

[OhOkayWhat]

4 hours ago, FemmyV said:

You see a more interesting character; I see a purposefully crafted tool, in an attempt to hide story changes made by a second writer.

The writer of 6x02 (Brienne-Sansa conversation) is Dave Hill and the writers of 4x10 (Brienne-Sandor meeting) are D and D. I do not see why they need to hide something.

If you are calling them "the second writers" and GRRM is "the first writer", we must remember that from the very beginning of the show, every single character of GoT is a different character than the ones we find in the books. They live in a parallel universe, the events of their lives are happening in an alternate reality of Planetos. Therefore, they follow their own tv-storylines.

And the event in 6x02 follows the events of previous seasons. It follows also the themes within Brienne on-screen-plot, in this case, the "Rules vs. Conscience" issue as established previously with the Brienne and Jaime journey tv-story-arc and different events and conversations within her tv-narrative.

Therefore, the show writers are not hiding anything, instead, they are actually embracing the themes and plot that they previously developed with Show-Brienne.

[Wouter]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

But he did not LOVE her. Again, why do you keep comparing Tyrion/Sansa of the books to Tyrion/Arya in the outline - where Tyrion falls in love with an older Arya towards the end? Book Tyrion was not given much maneuvering room regarding Sansa and he also wanted Winterfell. That's why he married her. Not because he loved her. In the outline he befriends Sansa and he does so in the books as well. You may not think so, but in the Vale, Sansa thinks that she would escape to Tyrion if he was alive, counting him even above Jon. Why would she think that if Tyrion had not befriended her in KL? Meanwhile she is dreaming of kissing the Hound.

[...]

But Sansa falls for him despite her type being the Hound and Loras and Willas? She was already repulsed by Tyrion. A love triangle does not mean that Dany should fall for Tyrion as well. In the outline, Jon and Arya fall in love with each other, while Tyrion falls for Arya. I foresee the same here with Jon and Dany falling for each other, with Tyrion falling for Dany.

[...]

I could say that we have a Jon/Arya/Ramsey love triangle.

You keep reducing the described relationships to romantic love. There is more to a relationship than love. Sansa and Tyrion do have a relationship in the books, but there is neither love nor friendship, at the moment (you cannot call Sansa and Tyrion "friends" in ASOS. Sansa pretty much refused to talk with him. And Tyrion didn't act like a friend, he acted like a more or less friendly goaler.). In the outline, there seems to be more to the Tyrion/Arya relationship than romantic love, as well. At least, most lovers don't burn the home of their beloved while attempting to capture them. I guess most people would view that as a turn off.

Sansa's type is indeed not Tyrion, that's for sure. But once more, you reduce everything I wrote to "romantic love". Sansa did not fall for Tyrion, but she did marry him anyway. Cersei did not fall for Robert, but she married him. Margaery did not fall for Joffrey. Dany did not fall for Drogo (at first) and never fell for Hizdahr, but marry them she did. Catelyn hadn't fallen (yet) for Eddard when she married him. See the pattern?

Marriages tend to be negotiated and arranged, in this world. Ironically, the proposed Sansa/Harry marriage would be one instance where at least one of the two has to feel romantic love as one of the preconditions before it could take place.

[TxanGoddess]

16 hours ago, Wouter said:

I was talking about the Iron Throne - if Jon and/or Dany hold the Iron Throne, Tyrion cannot be (ruling) king and Sansa is not needed as a (non-ruling) queen. 

Ah, gotcha.  Yep, "ruling" is the word my eye persistently skipped over, even when I rechecked before posting.  Funny how your mind can do that.  Thanks for answering me in the same good faith I asked, because I did feel sincerely stupid about it.

16 hours ago, Wouter said:

For the Iron Throne, it's crucial that there is an undisputed heir. In Casterly Rock, a successor to Tyrion could be named with the Iron Throne guarding that the succession proceeds as planned after Tyrion's death. Moreover, for the Iron Throne (with Dany and Jon out of the picture in this hypothetical scenario, for whatever reason) a match between a southern king and a northern queen (or vice versa) would be recommended to make sure the north falls in line

Okay, so I go back and forth on this in my head.  We're all thinking in terms of historical monarchal paradigms, in which, yes, an heir would be really important.  And of course, we think this because GRRM draws on such a wealth of real historical events, and because its been important on the show thus far.

But isn't this assuming Danerys to be a hypocrite?  She said she was going to 'break the wheel.'  In fact, she said it specifically after mentioning just how damaging all those years of passing nobility along the family lines had already been for most of the population of the Seven Kingdoms.  If she instantly starts wheeling and dealing marriage alliances and breeding and heirs, isn't she basically making 'break the wheel' into 'doing things the exact same way they always were done before, except its different now because it's me?'

I have some more thoughts on this that I can't quite articulate right now due to lack of time re:  her supporting the Greyjoys, self determination, and institutional memory.  But I would really like to hear some other opinions on Danerys' 'break the wheel' speech and what others believe she meant when she said that.  Because again, it seems kind of bullshitty if she doesn't intend to enact some sort of dramatic changes in Westeros.      

[Cherpumple]

I didn't think Dany's "break the wheel" declaration had to do with an objection to hereditary family lines (especially since that's what she's basing her own claim on in Westeros), but more about the problem of the noble families constantly fighting amongst each other for power, to the detriment and destruction of the small folk. The wheel going round and round was about each family taking precedence for a short time before being overtaken by another. I have no idea what "breaking" this wheel would entail, and to be honest, I laughed out loud when she said it because it sounded so cheesy and haughty. It could mean something benevolent, like the idea of establishing a large council or parliament with equal representation among all the kingdoms, or it could be more sinister, like destroying/demoting the great houses so they no longer pose a huge threat to either the monarch (Targaryen, of course), or the people. I think Dany would prefer the latter, but could be persuaded towards the former by someone like Tyrion.

And to briefly weigh in on the Brienne/Sansa conversation from 6.02, I thought that dialogue was awkward as hell. The more Brienne avoided saying the Hound's name, the more it brought attention to him. So to me that either means it was clunky writing (totally possible), or it was significant in some way to the storyline, such as wanting to hide from the viewing audience Sansa's reaction to hearing about him. I don't think it had anything to do with Brienne's sense of duty or chivalry, or any other part of her character; it felt very deliberate, and IMHO felt more on par with the fact that they didn't let us hear the name that Lyanna gave to her newborn son. The writers obscured this information for a reason that we don't know yet.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, TxanGoddess said:

But I would really like to hear some other opinions on Danerys' 'break the wheel' speech and what others believe she meant when she said that.  Because again, it seems kind of bullshitty if she doesn't intend to enact some sort of dramatic changes in Westeros.      

Dany was referring to the state of civil war in Westeros.  By breaking the wheel she means that she will crush all opposition to her and restore stability, with herself as unchallenged autocrat , i.e., the same thing she did in Slaver's Bay (before moving on).

42 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

It could mean something benevolent, like the idea of establishing a large council or parliament with equal representation among all the kingdoms, or it could be more sinister, like destroying/demoting the great houses so they no longer pose a huge threat to either the monarch (Targaryen, of course), or the people. I think Dany would prefer the latter, but could be persuaded towards the former by someone like Tyrion.

I'd laugh if the show ends with Tyrion singlehandedly inventing democracy.

Jokes aside, that's something people sometimes speculate about in the books, but there's absolutely nothing in the books pointing at this.  While it's true that Dany and Tyrion (and Arya) have both spent time in Free Cities that have some sort of democratic/oligarchic system, none of them show any interest at all in this system of government -- indeed, Tyrion, on observing democracy practised among the Mountain Clans in AGOT, notes it as a sign of how uncivilized they are and imagines reforming them with a more 'advanced' hierarchical system.  Westeros notably lacks virtually all the institutions of civil society that would be necessary for a transition to democracy (like, for instance, any kind of functioning legal system; we've never so much as heard of a lawyer in five books and assorted supplementary materials).  Dany's philosophy of ruling is quite straightforward:  people do what she tells them to.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Cherpumple said:

So to me that either means it was clunky writing (totally possible), or it was significant in some way to the storyline, such as wanting to hide from the viewing audience Sansa's reaction to hearing about him

Maybe that part of the dialogue feels strange because we were expecting a different thing. But I think it becomes really bad writing if they write it only because the audience expect it, even if it defies the internal logic of the character. In this case, they followed the Brienne narrative previously established.

[SeanC]

43 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Maybe that part of the dialogue feels strange because we were expecting a different thing. But I think it becomes really bad writing if they write it only because the audience expect it, even if it defies the internal logic of the character. In this case, they followed the Brienne narrative previously established.

The argument that it defies internal logic doesn't make any sense to me.  There is no indication Brienne is purposefully withholding anything, and it makes little sense for her to do so; that's contrary to what a sworn sword is meant to do, and Brienne is nothing if not conscientious.

[Cherpumple]

I definitely agree with SeanC on this point. I don't believe there's any "internal logic" for Brienne withholding the identification of Arya's travelling companion at this point, especially since she knows nothing about any previous history between Sansa and Sandor, so it can't be argued that she's protecting Sansa from some horrible truth or something like that. If anything, the structure of the dialogue reminds me of cheesy rom-coms where two people are talking to each other about their boyfriends, strategically avoiding specific identifiers like names or places of employment, and then they discover that (gasp!) they're both talking about the same man! It's a well-worn device, and stuck out to me so much that I can't help but assume that it's significant in some way. But it sounds like we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I'd laugh if the show ends with Tyrion singlehandedly inventing democracy.

I would too! It does sound ridiculous, but I honestly can't think of another meaning for "break the wheel" that doesn't just mean going scorched-earth on the nobles of Westeros, which is an incredibly stupid and naive plan. But seriously, that line is so groan-worthy. It sounds like something Darkstar would say.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Cherpumple

[Wouter]

3 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

Ah, gotcha.  Yep, "ruling" is the word my eye persistently skipped over, even when I rechecked before posting.  Funny how your mind can do that.  Thanks for answering me in the same good faith I asked, because I did feel sincerely stupid about it.

Okay, so I go back and forth on this in my head.  We're all thinking in terms of historical monarchal paradigms, in which, yes, an heir would be really important.  And of course, we think this because GRRM draws on such a wealth of real historical events, and because its been important on the show thus far.

But isn't this assuming Danerys to be a hypocrite?  She said she was going to 'break the wheel.'  In fact, she said it specifically after mentioning just how damaging all those years of passing nobility along the family lines had already been for most of the population of the Seven Kingdoms.  If she instantly starts wheeling and dealing marriage alliances and breeding and heirs, isn't she basically making 'break the wheel' into 'doing things the exact same way they always were done before, except its different now because it's me?'

I have some more thoughts on this that I can't quite articulate right now due to lack of time re:  her supporting the Greyjoys, self determination, and institutional memory.  But I would really like to hear some other opinions on Danerys' 'break the wheel' speech and what others believe she meant when she said that.  Because again, it seems kind of bullshitty if she doesn't intend to enact some sort of dramatic changes in Westeros.      

No problem and no need to feel stupid about it!

Like Cherpumple and Sean, I don't think Dany was thinking about democracy with her "break the wheel" (a show-only thing, so far). It would be unrealistic for a place like Westeros to have a functioning democratic system (lots of advances in education and communication are needed for that), except maybe for a system where the great lords, and maybe a few rich merchants, have more power vis-a-vis the king. But that seems to be the opposite of what Dany would presumably be aiming for, as she wants the Targaryens to be absolute kings. Egg tried to reform a lot of things (in the interests of the serfs/'smallfolk') but he couldn't do much of them because his lords resisted en-masse. Dany probably feels she needs to be very powerful to be able to change things in spite of the lords.

In any case, a marriage alliance to tie the north firmly back to the south would be a wise course to forestall a lot of future wars and to keep Westeros as united as possible (which in turn would limit the opportunity for regional wars). Both Jon/Dany or Tyrion/Sansa would fit the bill. But Jon/Dany would seem to be the logical outcome, so only if they die or they otherwise won't be able to produce a heir would the latter be a possibility.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Wouter

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

It does sound ridiculous, but I honestly can't think of another meaning for "break the wheel" that doesn't just mean going scorched-earth on the nobles of Westeros, which is an incredibly stupid and naive plan. 

But that's entirely consistent with Dany's past strategy, as we see repeatedly in Slaver's Bay and with the Dothraki last season:  she offered the khals the chance to join her, and when they refused (as she assumed they would), she slaughtered them to a man.

[Cherpumple]

I agree, it is definitely consistent with Dany's past strategies, which is why I don't like it and will be rolling my eyes if she tries it yet again. I'm not a Dany fan.

[Oscirus]

56 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The argument that it defies internal logic doesn't make any sense to me.  There is no indication Brienne is purposefully withholding anything, and it makes little sense for her to do so; that's contrary to what a sworn sword is meant to do, and Brienne is nothing if not conscientious.

Perhaps not. But if the show wanted to avoid giving hope to Sansan shippingbook fans ,what better way to avoid it then to not bring him up in her presence?   To me it doesn't come off as an important omission since Arya wasn't his hostage ( as far as Brienne knew).

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I'd laugh if the show ends with Tyrion singlehandedly inventing democracy.

LOL. Yea. I don't see Tyrion who's constantly reaped the benefits of the current government suddenly deciding to change it.  However, it would be hilarious watching the writers bend over backwards trying to explain something so out of character.