Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Apparently the original article at L7R says they're going to be filming in that location for a month, which is about how look it took to shoot Snowbowl. So maybe it could indeed be a big land and sea battle. (L7R proved wrong about several things in s6, I think it's still a reliable source for shooting dates and the like.)

D&D have said more than once that they feel the need to keep upping the stakes in successive seasons and delivering bigger and bigger set pieces. An enormous land and sea battle would definitely represent a step up. A few years ago when GRRM made those remarks about wanting a movie to end GOT, he made a comment about upcoming sea battles in the books as well.

11 hours ago, anamika said:

A player of the game should also be a master of information ( Hence Varys' little birds) and be able to move the chess pieces ably. Sansa's  ability to completely ignore or block out the truth in favor of what she wants to believe to be the truth and her inability to connect the dots and see what's right in front of her face makes her totally unfit to be any kind of player. I just cannot see how she is going to bring down LF. I don't see how any information about Ned or Jeyne is going to change her mind about things. She will probably ignore all that and continue as usual till someone puts an end to her miserable existence.

I think we're supposed to believe in both the books and the show that Sansa is evolving as a player. Book Sansa successfully puzzles out that Lyn Corbray is LF's man, TV Sansa successfully gets back Winterfell and correctly warns Jon that Ramsay will attempt to bait him into doing something. Still, that doesn't get her any closer to a break with LF, since she needs not only the ability to bring down LF but also the desire to do so.

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I also think its possible that Sansa, possibly with LF, may be sent down south to treat with queen Daenerys at some point (asking for her help against the WW).  That could turn it into a three way confrontation between Tyrion, LF and Sansa (or four-way, if Varys joins too).

For that scenario to happen, Jon would have to be dumb enough to send his sister, who is salty about Jon being named as ruler in the North ahead of her and Jon failing to recognize her contributions (and whom it's implied Jon's already having trouble trusting), and her BFF, who Jon has been informed is completely untrustworthy, to enter into negotiations on his behalf with a ruler with three dragons of her own. Jon is being written as little better than an adorable golden retriever of a man in the show, but even he's not that stupid. Not to mention that Sansa would likely balk at the prospect of negotiating directly with her ex-husband.

From a character perspective, even assuming this confrontation takes place, Tyrion would have no interest in trying to disillusion Sansa about LF. She left him to die in KL; he'd probably think that if she's dumb enough to ally with LF, she deserves whatever she gets.

From a meta perspective, as satisfying and Dynasty-worthy as a four-way bitchfest between Tyrion, Varys, LF and Sansa would be, all indications are that LF and Sansa are staying north to ruin everything for Jon in Season 7. I would be very surprised if Tyrion and Sansa ever see each other again.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

Instead of trusting Tyrion, she trusts Dontos and the Tyrells. Instead of trusting the Vale Lords, she trusts LF. 

On the former, why exactly is Tyrion more trustworthy than Dontos or the Tyrells?  He wasn't offering to get her out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters; he maybe wanted to make her captivity more comfortable, but that was as far as it went.

On the second, if you're referring to the books, she has no idea how the Vale lords will react to her presence.  Indeed, we see her contemplate begging for Royce's help, but she then decides that since he provided no help to her brother, there's no reason to think he'll help her.  Maybe she's wrong -- we don't know -- but that's a rational enough calculation.  If you're talking about the show, yeah, that whole angle makes little sense, and is just the first of a number of contrivances the writers introduce where they want to rush to Independent Sansa but still have her do all the sorts of things Captive Sansa would do.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

D&D have said more than once that they feel the need to keep upping the stakes in successive seasons and delivering bigger and bigger set pieces. An enormous land and sea battle would definitely represent a step up. A few years ago when GRRM made those remarks about wanting a movie to end GOT, he made a comment about upcoming sea battles in the books as well.

As far as a big southern setpiece goes, the biggest question I have about next season's plot, in terms of mechanics, is how exactly the playing field in the south can be made to be at least somewhat competitive.  If they're staging a lengthy action sequence involving Dany's forces, one imagines there's meant to be actual drama there (as opposed to, e.g., the five-second annihilation of Stannis' army in 510), which is what you'd expect anyway if it's meant to occupy a full season.  Team Cersei/Euron needs some sort of magic in their corner, which, at least going by the books you would think Euron would provide, but Euron's intro in Season 6 really offered no suggestion of that.

[Eyes High]

Unsullied are gearing up for winter! I'm guessing the Dothraki will get sleeves as well. WOTW speculates that there will be Unsullied filming in Northern Ireland in the near future as they tend to wait until the last minute for many fittings.

Lots of GOT cast spotted in Belfast very recently: Sophie, Maisie, Kit, Iain Glen, Kristofer Hivju, John Bradley, NCW, etc.

The Irish Thrones twitter reports lots of filming activity this week at Corbet. Irish Thrones states that Corbet and the studios located there were used last season for Hodor's "hold the door" scene, a ship, and the interior and exterior of Riverrun.

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As far as a big southern setpiece goes, the biggest question I have about next season's plot, in terms of mechanics, is how exactly the playing field in the south can be made to be at least somewhat competitive.  If they're staging a lengthy action sequence involving Dany's forces, one imagines there's meant to be actual drama there (as opposed to, e.g., the five-second annihilation of Stannis' army in 510), which is what you'd expect anyway if it's meant to occupy a full season.  Team Cersei/Euron needs some sort of magic in their corner, which, at least going by the books you would think Euron would provide, but Euron's intro in Season 6 really offered no suggestion of that.

Interestingly, Euron's actor in an interview made a reference to the dragon horn, but if that does somehow show up, I agree that it wasn't set up at all in Season 6. For any battle to be anything but a ridiculously lopsided rout by Dany, the dragons have to be neutralized somehow (magic, can't fly in the storm, Dany is knocked unconscious at a critical moment, etc.)...unless of course she divides her forces into various groups and sends them off wherever, leaving a main force with dragons and one or more dragonless subgroups.

One possibility is that Dany divides her forces, with Theon and Yara (and some of the Sand Snakes, I guess, since Euron kills at least one of them) facing off against Euron in a sea battle, and Dany lands with the Unsullied and Dothraki to fight a huge battle against the Lannister armies. It could be that the Euron vs. Theon/Yara is the swift, catastrophic defeat (much like Dany's dragon attack in 6x09) while Dany's armies vs. Cersei's armies is the long, complicated battle. Or maybe the Euron vs. Theon/Yara is a smaller moving part of a larger battle, with both land and sea components.

I'm also curious about where Euron taking out at least one Sand Snake fits into all of this. In the books (so far, anyway), Euron attacks the Reach. Is he going to attack Dorne in the show?

So if I have it straight, the plot spoilers so far for Season 7 are as follows (in no particular order):

1. Euron and Theon/Yara engage in a sea battle and he captures one of them.

2. Euron kills at least one Sand Snake.

3. There's a big sequence involving Unsullied and Dothraki (probably a land battle).

4. Dany makes it to the dragonpit.

5. Euron allies with Cersei.

6. Gendry returns...? (Not confirmed by WOTW as a definite spoiler, but he was spotted.)

Some dude on 4chan also claimed that Kit will be doing a lot filming in later months at the Riverrun set in Corbet, but, you know...4chan. And hey, sometimes the crazy Reddit/4chan rumours are legit.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Do these things really matter at the end of the day?

Yes, of course it matters that LF is more than likely the ultimate murderer of her father. There is a reason this information has only been subtly leaked to the reader in the books, and almost no characters have an inkling about it (but Tyrion suspects it, and Bran can find out all kinds of stuff if GRRM wants him to).

Just like Arya is likely to turn on the Faceless Man in the books (as she more or less did in the show), so is Sansa likely to turn on her mentor. The info about her father represents an obvious breaking point; Jeyne and Sweetrobin are two other possibilities.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

For that scenario to happen, Jon would have to be dumb enough to send his sister, who is salty about Jon being named as ruler in the North ahead of her and Jon failing to recognize her contributions (and whom it's implied Jon's already having trouble trusting), and her BFF, who Jon has been informed is completely untrustworthy, to enter into negotiations on his behalf with a ruler with three dragons of her own. Jon is being written as little better than an adorable golden retriever of a man in the show, but even he's not that stupid. Not to mention that Sansa would likely balk at the prospect of negotiating directly with her ex-husband.

Legally he's probably still her husband - certainly so in the books, and there was no divorce in the show either (the second marriage would just be termed illegal as far as the Septons are concerned).

Sansa seems like an excellent negotiator for Dany's court, to me. Close in age to Dany and officially being married to her closest advisor, she has reasonable chances of approaching her safely and of securing an audience where she is actually listened to. And on the other hand, she wouldn't be missed much in the north, where Jon can continue with his martial preparations against the WW. And since Jon may not even be aware that Sansa has misgivings to that extent (even the audience isn't sure about that; the only thing clear is that actress and showrunners like to hype it that way), why would he not trust her to negotiate on his behalf? He could send a surviving wildling or night watch men with her to have an eyewitness of the attacks by the WW.

The main alternative is that Jon goes himself, with the risk that as a rebel (threatening to steal half of Dany's kingdom) he will be taken captive rather than greeted. And then he would pretty much have to hand Winterfell over to Sansa, doing otherwise would be a vote of non-confidence and shatter the image of a united Stark front.

He could also sent Davos, who is quite the accomplished diplomat in the show, but outside Stannis' circle most nobles would see him as an upjumped smuggler (and his involvement with Stannis would not gain him points with Dany). Moreover, he would not be the best man to treat with Tyrion, due to the Blackwater.

As for there being no indication she may come south again: she is in the south in the books. And in the books, there is really no indication she will go north anytime soon, what with Stannis alive and kicking there, no marriage to Ramsay (for her, anyway) and with the Vale army being stuck behind the snows in the passes. Book and show will have to grow together again to hit the really major plotpoints, as they tend to do, but whether the book will go where the show is now (Sansa in the north before Dany's invasion - so what happens to her own storyline and supporting cast in the Vale?) or whether the show will go where the books are now (Sansa back in the south, though probably not in the Vale itself) remains to be seen.

I've always considered the possibility that Sansa may be the first Stark, in the books, to meet Dany, at least if we discount a hidden Arya who could infiltrate without revealing herself. With Aegon active in the Stormlands and with Dorne possibly in his pocket, the Vale or the KL region itself are possible landing places for her army. Which could put LF in a position to join with the winner, at a little price.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

On the former, why exactly is Tyrion more trustworthy than Dontos or the Tyrells?  He wasn't offering to get her out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters; he maybe wanted to make her captivity more comfortable, but that was as far as it went.

On the second, if you're referring to the books, she has no idea how the Vale lords will react to her presence.  Indeed, we see her contemplate begging for Royce's help, but she then decides that since he provided no help to her brother, there's no reason to think he'll help her.  Maybe she's wrong -- we don't know -- but that's a rational enough calculation. 

Exactly. I would even argue that in the books, the Tyrells original plans for her (until Dontos and LF betrayed those to the Lannisters, forcing a change of plans) were far better than what Tyrion was working for, on behalf of Tywin. Book Tyrion was more a Lannister yes-men at that point, unlike the gallant Tyrion we saw in the show at that point. Tellingly, book Tyrion did not tell his bride she was going to marry him (until 5 minutes before the actual wedding), while Show Tyrion came to her as soon as possible.

I was happy lord Royce is still alive in the show at the end of S6, because he is a potential ally for book-Sansa if she can get herself to break away from LF and trust (Yohn) Royce instead. If he dies in the show, especially if it is by LF design, the chances of that happening in the book take a hit.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Wouter

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Legally he's probably still her husband - certainly so in the books, and there was no divorce in the show either (the second marriage would just be termed illegal as far as the Septons are concerned).

The books and the show have different rules. The books have complicated rules when it comes to annulment; non-consummation is a necessary condition for an annulment, but in of itself it doesn't void anything (one needs to write to the High Septon and request an annulment, etc. etc.). The fact of non-consummation automatically voided Tyrion and Sansa's marriage in the show; Littlefinger told Roose that by law Sansa was unmarried since the marriage had never been consummated, and Roose accepted this explanation. Nor did TV Cersei blink an eye at LF's statement that Sansa had married Ramsay, probably because she was also aware that the marriage was unconsummated and therefore by show logic automatically null and void. Sansa's marriage to Ramsay was perfectly legal.

Nor does Ramsay's death make Sansa and Tyrion any more married than they were before Ramsay married Sansa. If Tyrion and Sansa's marriage was void for non-consummation prior to Ramsay marrying Sansa, and according to LF and pretty much everyone at the time (Sansa, Roose, Cersei, etc.) it was, it would be no less void after Ramsay's death.

I suppose it's possible that if one views TV Westeros marriage to have two components (consecrated vows + consummation) without which the marriage is automatically null and void, then Sansa and Tyrion, having already done the vows bit, could "complete" their marriage by consummating it and therefore be legally married, but such an outcome seems incredibly unlikely.

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Sansa seems like an excellent negotiator for Dany's court, to me. Close in age to Dany and officially being married to her closest advisor, she has reasonable chances of approaching her safely and of securing an audience where she is actually listened to.

Sansa would have to get through Tyrion first, and that would not go well for her. First off, she's not married to Tyrion, and when she was "married" to him she left him to die in KL; Tyrion is therefore not kindly disposed towards her to begin with. Second, she fled her second husband and waged a campaign against him culminating with his death; unless Theon spreads the word about how awful Ramsay is to the invading force (who wouldn't know of Ramsay's true nature any more than LF did), the optics of what Sansa did, shall we say, do not paint the picture of a trustworthy person. Finally, LF bragged to Sansa that he had declared for House Stark for all to hear; if Tyrion gets one whiff of Sansa and LF's BFFdom, he and Varys will be extremely suspicious of Sansa and will urge Dany not to trust her and to view her as LF's naive dupe at best and LF's malevolent ally at worst. Sending an emissary who is distrusted or even hated by your target's most trusted advisor is dumb, and even if TV Jon is too stupid to realize that, Sansa is not.

TV Sansa would also hate having to beg Tyrion for anything, much less give another Lannister another chance to hurt and debase her. Sansa was thrilled to be rid of him, being one of the "monsters who murdered [her] family." Let's assume that she would trust that Tyrion would not use his position to imprison her on the basis that they were once married, to punish her or what he saw as her betrayal in KL by siccing Dany on her (who already has a reason to hate the Starks given the existing Stark/Targ beef), or to humiliate and mock her as revenge for past slights (as he did with Theon). Even under that assumption, the idea of going to a Lannister, cap in hand, to bow and scrape and beg for something that wouldn't even benefit her directly but would benefit Jon would horrify her. TV Sansa as of Season 6 is all about self-determination and recognition as someone worthy of being reckoned with, and she's probably still smarting from the humiliating KITN acclamation and the dressing-down she got from Lord Glover and Lady Mormont when she asked them for something she needed. To humble herself before a bitter, angry, vengeful Lannister ex-"husband" with serious beef who not only reminds her of the most painful and terrifying time of her life but who also happens to be the Hand to a frighteningly powerful queen would be a good working definition of hell for Sansa.

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And since Jon may not even be aware that Sansa has misgivings to that extent (even the audience isn't sure about that; the only thing clear is that actress and showrunners like to hype it that way), why would he not trust her to negotiate on his behalf?

You're assuming that Sansa would want to go or that Jon would override her misgivings. I doubt both. My reading of 6x10 is that Jon is also beginning to feel uncomfortable about Sansa's association with LF, which is why he looks uneasy at Sansa's blithe "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger" and tells her "We need to trust each other" as opposed to "You need to trust me." Sansa has already admitted to concealing valuable strategic information from him before (without giving a reason why, no less). He's a fool if he trusts her with a sensitive, extremely important diplomatic mission in light of that confession.

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He could also sent Davos, who is quite the accomplished diplomat in the show, but outside Stannis' circle most nobles would see him as an upjumped smuggler (and his involvement with Stannis would not gain him points with Dany). Moreover, he would not be the best man to treat with Tyrion, due to the Blackwater.

In that situation, though, it would be Davos having the greater beef, not Tyrion, so the power balance would be different. There would be no issue as long as Davos could suppress whatever bitterness he might have over Tyrion's responsibility for the death of his son. I doubt Tyrion would have beef with Davos for having served Stannis faithfully.

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Book and show will have to grow together again to hit the really major plotpoints, as they tend to do, but whether the book will go where the show is now (Sansa in the north before Dany's invasion - so what happens to her own storyline and supporting cast in the Vale?)

I guess it depends on how one thinks TV Sansa's plotline and Book Sansa's plotline will knit together. I think that we've already rejoined Book Sansa's plotline: she's in the North with LF and the Vale forces (and a possible dead Harry the heir and Sweetrobin in her wake), with a freshly-crowned Jon to deal with and an axe to grind. It would be vaulting pretty far ahead, past her Vale storyline, but then TV Stannis and the TV Boltons are dead, TV Arya is back in Westeros, TV Jon is resurrected and crowned, TV Dany and Tyrion are already en route back to Westeros at the head of an army, and TV Cersei has disposed of all her KL enemies, which means that we are way, way, way into TWOW. To line up with everyone else, TV Sansa has to be way, way, way into TWOW as well or on her way there.

[SeanC]

If Jon was going to send an emissary to Dany's court, it would make sense to send Sansa, since she knows some of the people there (and on the show, she and Tyrion were pals and continued to profess their faith in each other even post-Purple Wedding).  However, dramatically speaking, the conflicts the show set up in Season 6 would seem to require that not happen.  I suspect there's not going to be much interplay between the Northern and Southern plotlines in Season 6, absent the Riverlands gang.

Speaking of whom, I was thinking about what potentially might come of Mel running into Arya.  A lot of people have been assuming that Arya's just going to kill her, which I'm skeptical of since that seems like kind of an odd ending to Mel's story, and if Arya was going to kill her, it makes little sense for them to have dropped her from Arya's list beginning in Season 5.  Plus, the only reason Arya wants to kill her is Gendry, who's alive and is returning to the series (apparently).  That made me wonder if Arya's not going to demand that Mel take her to wherever Gendry is, if she was worried about him, and since Gendry isn't hanging with the Brotherhood in the show (or seemingly in the Riverlands at all).  That may be too elaborate for the show, of course, and they'll just have Gendry conveniently be wherever Arya runs across him despite earlier plot changes.  But it seems like Arya meeting Mel again must have some big significance, and Arya just killing her seems an awkward fit to me.

EDIT:  Incidentally, in terms of interplay between storylines, it seems like Mel would actually be a good candidate to go to Dany whenever she arrives.  Firebreathing dragons, etc. would be of obvious interest to her, and she might feel she needs to inform Dany of the coming struggle with the White Walkers.

Edited September 15, 2016 by SeanC

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think Arya is killing Mel, but I think she will make sure she knows what's happening North, and that might get Arya to head home sooner. I wonder if Mel has seen more in the flames about Jon that she hasn't told anyone. Does she know that he and Arya are "siblings"? Did she make the connection between them when she met Jon, or has she completely forgotten about her? I'm really interested in seeing how a meeting would go down between them.

I think Mel is going to link up with Dany at some point. Tyrion would already know of her as Stannis' red priestess, so I see him being extra cautious with her. 

[Eyes High]

19 minutes ago, SeanC said:

If Jon was going to send an emissary to Dany's court, it would make sense to send Sansa, since she knows some of the people there (and on the show, she and Tyrion were pals and continued to profess their faith in each other even post-Purple Wedding).  However, dramatically speaking, the conflicts the show set up in Season 6 would seem to require that not happen.  I suspect there's not going to be much interplay between the Northern and Southern plotlines in Season 6, absent the Riverlands gang.

Season 6 Sansa actually hates all of the Lannisters and wants them all dead (she states that LF saved her from "the monsters who murdered my family," so she's lumping in Tyrion with the rest of the hated Lannisters), and the fact that she actually knows who Tyrion is will be of no use if she hates him (and can reasonably assume he hates her). What kind of moron sends a person to negotiate on their behalf with someone whom that person hates and who it can be assumed hates them right back? Tyrion previously seemed kindly disposed towards Sansa, but Sansa can reasonably assume that he has soured towards her after the PW, what with the whole abandoning him in KL and leaving him to die and all; besides, as far as Sansa knows, Tyrion believes she murdered Joffrey and let him take the blame, meaning that she set him up to be murdered. Sansa, assuming she's not a complete fool, will want nothing to do with Tyrion, and if Jon is foolish enough to send her to Dany's court she will refuse. Besides, the last time she left Winterfell for KL, things...didn't go too well for her, as Sansa herself acknowledges ("We never should have left Winterfell" or words to that effect).

 

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I think Mel is going to link up with Dany at some point. Tyrion would already know of her as Stannis' red priestess, so I see him being extra cautious with her. 

Varys at least is not going to like that one bit, and as Varys pointed out to Kinvara, Melisandre has a shitty resume.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Season 6 Sansa actually hates all of the Lannisters and wants them all dead (she states that LF saved her from "the monsters who murdered my family," so she's lumping in Tyrion with the rest of the hated Lannisters), and the fact that she actually knows who Tyrion is will be of no use if she hates him (and can reasonably assume he hates her).

I don't see how that follows.  Sansa was friendly with Tyrion and did not consider him a monster or a captor on the show, so there's no reason to think she's including him among the people Baelish saved her from.

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Tyrion previously seemed kindly disposed towards Sansa, but Sansa can reasonably assume that he has soured towards her after the PW, what with the whole abandoning him in KL and leaving him to die and all; besides, as far as Sansa knows, Tyrion believes she murdered Joffrey and let her take the blame, meaning that she set him up to be murdered.

This is a fair enough point, though were the writers to actually raise this plot point (which, as I said, I think is unlikely) I doubt that sort of calculation would come up, based on how this show is usually written.

Edited September 15, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't see how that follows.  Sansa was friendly with Tyrion and did not consider him a monster or a captor on the show, so there's no reason to think she's including him among the people Baelish saved her from.

She didn't seem to consider him a monster or a captor in Season 4, although she includes among a list of the Lannisters' crimes in Season 4 that they married her "to the Imp." Sansa also had an agenda when she was praising Tyrion to Ramsay in Season 5; she was hoping that if she laid it on thick enough about how wonderful Tyrion was for not raping her, Ramsay would not rape her, either (didn't work, but it was worth a shot). Sansa seems to consider him an enemy now and considered LF's great service to her to be saving her from the "monsters" in KL (implicitly including Tyrion). Sansa was never torn up or even slightly conflicted over the possibility that Tyrion would be executed for a crime she believed he hadn't committed, except to the extent it meant she'd be frogmarched into marrying Robin; that's more consonant with the opinion she seems to have in Season 6 (he's just another Lannister no better than the others). Sansa's characterization has always been sloppy in the show, but if she has decided that she loathes Tyrion as just another Lannister, it would be closer to her book characterization than the superfriends depiction we got in late Season 3, and it wouldn't be the first time the writers pulled a 180 in characterization to get the character back "on track" with the books.

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This is a fair enough point, though were the writers to actually raise this plot point (which, as I said, I think is unlikely) I'm pretty sure we'd get another "Sansa touchingly trusts in Tyrion's wonderfulness" moment.

I doubt it. Sansa seems concerned about securing her own safety first and foremost--and one can hardly blame her for that--and she would never want to give anyone the opportunity to hurt her again, much less a hated Lannister. I can see her hunkering down at Winterfell for the foreseeable future, unless she starts to chafe under Jon's rule.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

Just now, Eyes High said:

She didn't seem to consider him a monster or a captor in Season 4, although she includes among a list of the Lannisters' crimes in Season 4 that they married her "to the Imp."

That whole spiel was calculated to elicit the sympathy of the Vale lords -- much of it was true, of course, and for that matter, being forced to marry him was still harmful, but none of that suggests she's suddenly developed animus for Tyrion she didn't have even three episodes earlier.

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Sansa seems to consider him one now and considered LF's great service to her to be saving her from the "monsters" in KL (implicitly including Tyrion).

But again, that doesn't implicitly include Tyrion, because Sansa never considered Tyrion a monster before.  She was outright pals with him on the show.

[Wouter]

36 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

[1]The books and the show have different rules. The books have complicated rules when it comes to annulment; non-consummation is a necessary condition for an annulment, but in of itself it doesn't void anything (one needs to write to the High Septon and request an annulment, etc. etc.). The fact of non-consummation automatically voided Tyrion and Sansa's marriage in the show;

[2]Sansa would have to get through Tyrion first, and that would not go well for her. First off, she's not married to Tyrion, and when she was "married" to him she left him to die in KL; Tyrion is therefore not kindly disposed towards her to begin with.

[3]You're assuming that Sansa would want to go or that Jon would override her misgivings. I doubt both. My reading of 6x10 is that Jon is also beginning to feel uncomfortable about Sansa's association with LF, which is why he looks uneasy at Sansa's blithe "Only a fool would trust Littlefinger" and tells her "We need to trust each other" as opposed to "You need to trust me." Sansa has already admitted to concealing valuable strategic information from him before (without giving a reason why, no less). He's a fool if he trusts her with a sensitive, extremely important diplomatic mission in light of that confession.

[4]I guess it depends on how one thinks TV Sansa's plotline and Book Sansa's plotline will knit together. I think that we've already rejoined Book Sansa's plotline: she's in the North with LF and the Vale forces (and a possible dead Harry the heir and Sweetrobin in her wake), with a freshly-crowned Jon to deal with and an axe to grind. It would be vaulting pretty far ahead, past her Vale storyline, but then TV Stannis and the TV Boltons are dead, TV Arya is back in Westeros, TV Jon is resurrected and crowned, TV Dany and Tyrion are already en route back to Westeros at the head of an army, and TV Cersei has disposed of all her KL enemies, which means that we are way, way, way into TWOW. To line up with everyone else, TV Sansa has to be way, way, way into TWOW as well or on her way there.

[1]: Even going by the fluid rules of the show, non-consummation isn't an automatic fact. It was not proven and cannot be proven anymore, after Ramsay. Roose and co accepted LF's reasoning because they wanted the marriage and didn't care about fine legalese print, much like an usurper (as Renly, or now Cersei on the show) doesn't care about the proper rules of succession if he or she can gather enough political/military support to take what they want. The show completely glossed over the supposed annulation of the earlier marriage - and had Lyanna Mormont kind off acknowledge that: "was it lady Lannister, or lady Bolton? I've heard conflicting reports". Conflicted reports is also what Dany may be hearing.

[2]: Based on one line of Sansa in S6, you conclude with apparent certainty that Tyrion and Sansa now hate each other. But Sansa had nothing but kind feelings for Tyrion right after her escape (even with the far less friendly Tyrion from the books, book-Sansa regretted leaving him for the lions and did not hate him), and there is zero indication that show-Tyrion hates her. I doubt even book-Tyrion, with his post-Shae/Tywin depression, would want to hurt Sansa. If they met again in S7 or S8, I think they would get along well quickly.

Moreover, as a negotiator Sansa would be well placed to find a connection with Dany, considering they have both been sold by people who used them to further their own interests. That she hasn't personally claimed anything that Dany might object too (that is, she hasn't worn a crown) helps, too.

[3]: Jon is the king in the north and she claims to love him; not going if he asks would be borderline treason and also a very open move if she wants to plot subtly against him. And if she does support him (that's not out of the question, after all, we're only going on one gaze at LF), then she should do it for him even if she would rather not leave home again.

[4]: you think Sansa's book storyline will bring her into the north with the Vale Army? I will note that the Vale army in the book is said to be more or less paralysed by winter (at least in so far as leaving the Vale, without a massive fleet, goes), whereas the Vale army in the show was said to be trained to fight in the snow (something only said about northern armies and wildlings, in the books, and maybe the mountain clans). So I doubt the Vale army will play a role in the north; book-Stannis is likely to do what LF did in S6, taking out the Boltons. Jon can inherit the remains of his army after he inevitably falls later, maybe during the first major attack of the Others on the Wall. I see book-LF playing things out with/against the Freys, Cersei, the Tyrells, Aegon/Dorne and Dany. The books have more or less implied that, due to his business connections with Essos, LF is aware Dany may be coming. We don't know how far the show will diverge from what the books would do (in so far as they ever get finished). 

[Skeeter22]

It's kind of hilarious that Tyrion might hold Joffrey's death against Sansa, a crime he was very certain she didn't commit, while working with the actual murderers of Joffrey and Myrcella. It would make Tyrion look stupid, so it probably won't happen. 

 

I'm curious as to who is actually ruling Winterfell. According to the show, Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. It appears Jon is a king with no castle or lands. Sansa, not Jon, has personal ties to the Vale. I think the show accidentally created a mess they'll just handwave away. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Skeeter22

[SeanC]

36 minutes ago, Wouter said:

[1]: Even going by the fluid rules of the show, non-consummation isn't an automatic fact. It was not proven and cannot be proven anymore, after Ramsay. Roose and co accepted LF's reasoning because they wanted the marriage and didn't care about fine legalese print, much like an usurper (as Renly, or now Cersei on the show) doesn't care about the proper rules of succession if he or she can gather enough political/military support to take what they want. The show completely glossed over the supposed annulation of the earlier marriage - and had Lyanna Mormont kind off acknowledge that: "was it lady Lannister, or lady Bolton? I've heard conflicting reports". Conflicted reports is also what Dany may be hearing.

On that point, I think everybody other than blatant apologists think the show's handling of the issue is full of holes (if there's no central authority to verify these things, then being married in Westeros really means nothing), but the show isn't going to revisit that sort of stuff since it would just pick holes in the Season 5 plotline.

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[4]: you think Sansa's book storyline will bring her into the north with the Vale Army? I will note that the Vale army in the book is said to be more or less paralysed by winter (at least in so far as leaving the Vale, without a massive fleet, goes), whereas the Vale army in the show was said to be trained to fight in the snow (something only said about northern armies and wildlings, in the books, and maybe the mountain clans). So I doubt the Vale army will play a role in the north;

I've never been quite sure what I think about that.  Baelish evidently thinks imminent action can be taken with the Vale army, if nothing else.

33 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

I'm curious as to who is actually ruling Winterfell. According to the show, Sansa is Lady of Winterfell. It appears Jon is a king with no castle or lands. Sansa, not Jon, has personal ties to the Vale. I think the show accidentally created a mess they'll just handwave away. 

I'm interested to see whether that actually comes into play in Season 6 or if the Viewer's Guide is just including stuff from the season finale (e.g., the reference to Sansa as Lady of Winterfell) and it's not actually an important plot point.  If they're looking to generate friction between Jon and Sansa, the awkwardness of the arrangements around Winterfell would certainly be a way to do it.

Edited September 15, 2016 by SeanC

[Advance35]

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[2]: Based on one line of Sansa in S6, you conclude with apparent certainty that Tyrion and Sansa now hate each other. But Sansa had nothing but kind feelings for Tyrion right after her escape (even with the far less friendly Tyrion from the books, book-Sansa regretted leaving him for the lions and did not hate him), and there is zero indication that show-Tyrion hates her. I doubt even book-Tyrion, with his post-Shae/Tywin depression, would want to hurt Sansa. If they met again in S7 or S8, I think they would get along well quickly.

According to the show, I do think Tyrion still thinks kindly of Sansa.   It's Jaimie that was suspicious of her.  Tyrion felt that Sansa's disappearance was connected to everything going on but "the girl is no assassin" and "Sansa's no killer, not yet".  He didn't seem to regard her with resentment or suspicion.   He likely still thinks of her as a spacey and flighty young girl who's been through a lot but is mostly harmless.

In terms of Vice Versa, I don't think Sansa has anything against Tyrion but I don't think she has anything for him either.

Vary's, the last time we saw him candidly speak about Sansa was to Shae and he said that "She's a kind, sweet girl and none of this is her fault."  Now he may be up on current events but I doubt he harbors any enmity towards her.   

IF Sansa were to be sent to negotiate with Dany's court she's have civil to positive relationships with 3 members of her Court/forces.  Tyron (her Hand), Varys and Theon.   She might even be able to shake things up on Dany's side if she were to let slip that it was Lady Olenna that committed the regicide that sent Tyrion's life into a tailspin.

OT but wasn't there a spoiler about how D&D wrote a scene in the Throne Room for Season 7 that started with just 4 people but ended up turning into a parade?   I always took that to mean Dany's arrival/coronation whatever would ACTUALLY happen this season.  7 episodes isn't long but we may actually see the conclusion of Cersei's thread this year.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

OT but wasn't there a spoiler about how D&D wrote a scene in the Throne Room for Season 7 that started with just 4 people but ended up turning into a parade?   I always took that to mean Dany's arrival/coronation whatever would ACTUALLY happen this season.  7 episodes isn't long but we may actually see the conclusion of Cersei's thread this year.

I'd be a bit surprised if Cersei makes it to Season 8.

[anamika]

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

On the former, why exactly is Tyrion more trustworthy than Dontos or the Tyrells?  He wasn't offering to get her out of King's Landing and away from the Lannisters; he maybe wanted to make her captivity more comfortable, but that was as far as it went.

On the second, if you're referring to the books, she has no idea how the Vale lords will react to her presence.  Indeed, we see her contemplate begging for Royce's help, but she then decides that since he provided no help to her brother, there's no reason to think he'll help her.  Maybe she's wrong -- we don't know -- but that's a rational enough calculation.  If you're talking about the show, yeah, that whole angle makes little sense, and is just the first of a number of contrivances the writers introduce where they want to rush to Independent Sansa but still have her do all the sorts of things Captive Sansa would do.

Why exactly were Dontos and the Tyrells more trustworthy than Tyrion? As it turns out they were not, right? The Tyrells were just using her and framed her for murder and Dontos handed her over to LF. Why did Sansa think that their assurances to get her out of KL was trustworthy? Is someone offering to get her out of KL, a measure of trustworthiness? Tyrion also offers to take her to Casterly Rock and away from Joffrey's abuse. Why does she refuse that offer?

On the second, in the books, at this point she knows for a fact how untrustworthy LF is. At this point she knows that LF poisoned Jon Arryn and asked Lysa to write to Catelyn blaming the Lannisters. She knows the role LF played against her family in KL.  So she refuses the help of the Vale Lords because they did not help Robb but decides to trust the man who acted against her family in KL? What's rational about that?

15 hours ago, Wouter said:

Yes, of course it matters that LF is more than likely the ultimate murderer of her father. There is a reason this information has only been subtly leaked to the reader in the books, and almost no characters have an inkling about it (but Tyrion suspects it, and Bran can find out all kinds of stuff if GRRM wants him to).

Just like Arya is likely to turn on the Faceless Man in the books (as she more or less did in the show), so is Sansa likely to turn on her mentor. The info about her father represents an obvious breaking point; Jeyne and Sweetrobin are two other possibilities.

Would the fact that the Hound killed Jeyne's Poole father and other Stark men, helped the Lannisters imprison Ned in the dungeons and hold her captive make Sansa try to kill the Hound? I mean as far as the Hound knows the only thing LF did was hold a knife to Ned's throat. The Hound pretty much did the same thing, rounding up and killing Stark men and helping in Ned's capture. Why is LF more culpable than the Hound for what happened to Ned? The Lannisters and Joffrey were the truly guilty party. Any suspicions that LF whispered in Joff's ear to kill Ned are only the suspicions of a few characters, not fact.

And again with Jeyne. Why can't she ask LF herself as to what happened to Jeyne Poole if she cares so much about her friend? As mentioned above, she knows that LF was the last person to have Jeyne Poole.

And this is the problem I have with Sansa, she bloody knows everything. But refuses to add 2+2 to come up with 4. She knows that LF plotted against her family, she knows that the Hound killed Stark men, she knows that SR is doomed to die but she just will not connect the dots - probably because, like the Meereenese knot, GRRM only wants those plot points to move forward at the end of novel. All the same, this makes Sansa a very frustrating POV to read and I find all these claims of her turning to be a player frankly laughable.

I agree about Sweet Robin. His death maybe the true turning point for Sansa. Not Ned or Jeyne. Her affection for the Hound, shows that she's not too bothered by these things.

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I think we're supposed to believe in both the books and the show that Sansa is evolving as a player. Book Sansa successfully puzzles out that Lyn Corbray is LF's man, TV Sansa successfully gets back Winterfell and correctly warns Jon that Ramsay will attempt to bait him into doing something. Still, that doesn't get her any closer to a break with LF, since she needs not only the ability to bring down LF but also the desire to do so.

Even here, she is not able to explain why Corbray is LF's man. She just guesses that he is and LF confirms it for her. Certainly a tiny step forward - but I don't see that one thing justifying her evolution to a player. The show version has certainly evolved more, but has equally done some boneheaded things as well.

15 hours ago, Wouter said:

Exactly. I would even argue that in the books, the Tyrells original plans for her (until Dontos and LF betrayed those to the Lannisters, forcing a change of plans) were far better than what Tyrion was working for, on behalf of Tywin. Book Tyrion was more a Lannister yes-men at that point, unlike the gallant Tyrion we saw in the show at that point. Tellingly, book Tyrion did not tell his bride she was going to marry him (until 5 minutes before the actual wedding), while Show Tyrion came to her as soon as possible.

But the Tyrells ended up framing Sansa for murder, did they not? How were they more trustworthy than Tyrion? Book Tyrion did not try to put Sansa in any kind of danger at the least.

Edited September 16, 2016 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

On that point, I think everybody other than blatant apologists think the show's handling of the issue is full of holes (if there's no central authority to verify these things, then being married in Westeros really means nothing), but the show isn't going to revisit that sort of stuff since it would just pick holes in the Season 5 plotline.

I do not think about myself as a show apologist and I do not see a plot hole on that. The whole "new Sansa marriage" is explained in the show not only in the Littlefinger-Roose scene. In fact many events in season 4,5 and 6 help to explain it.

Also, I am one of those persons who thinks there are almost not real plot holes in season 5 and 6. Poor dialogue/plot sometimes?, yes; the lazy use of coincidences?, that too; Dorne issues? of course (All that besides the big problem with their irresponsible writing). But actually, there is no real plot hole, or perhaps, if we look exhaustively, very very few of them.

(Note to clarify: I call a real plot hole, an logical hole in the plot that cannot be solved even if someone elaborates a theory to explain it, because if we apply such theory to explain the logical problem in a particular issue or plotline within the whole narrative, it creates new contradictions and problems with the rest of the story, and therefore we have now new problems and plot holes to explain.)

Edited September 16, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

But again, that doesn't implicitly include Tyrion, because Sansa never considered Tyrion a monster before.  She was outright pals with him on the show.

TV Sansa was outright pals with him...before she learned about the RW. In the books, she also considers one of the terrible things done to her being forced to marry Tyrion, and the great service LF rendered her (apart from saving her from Lysa) freeing her from her marriage.

 

15 hours ago, Wouter said:

[2]: Based on one line of Sansa in S6, you conclude with apparent certainty that Tyrion and Sansa now hate each other. But Sansa had nothing but kind feelings for Tyrion right after her escape (even with the far less friendly Tyrion from the books, book-Sansa regretted leaving him for the lions and did not hate him), and there is zero indication that show-Tyrion hates her. I doubt even book-Tyrion, with his post-Shae/Tywin depression, would want to hurt Sansa. If they met again in S7 or S8, I think they would get along well quickly. (...)

[3]: Jon is the king in the north and she claims to love him; not going if he asks would be borderline treason and also a very open move if she wants to plot subtly against him. And if she does support him (that's not out of the question, after all, we're only going on one gaze at LF), then she should do it for him even if she would rather not leave home again.

[4]: you think Sansa's book storyline will bring her into the north with the Vale Army? I will note that the Vale army in the book is said to be more or less paralysed by winter

2. I don't know whether Tyrion would have it out for Sansa (Book Tyrion does), but Sansa would have every reason to assume that he did and act accordingly. We don't know whether TV Tyrion has any feelings of ill will towards Sansa, since he hasn't mentioned her since Season 4, but he certainly hadn't forgotten about Theon's past behaviour towards him and was happy to bring it up when Theon begged Dany for help, despite not having mentioned Theon for a long time, so...

3. I'm guessing any such request would come in private, and Sansa would negotiate her way out of it in private as well. I'm guessing if Jon tries to throw his weight around by calling Sansa's disagreement treason, it won't go well for him.

4. Unless the scheme LF described at the end of AFFC is total bullshit, as SeanC pointed out, Book LF is ultimately planning to take Sansa north under her own name at the head of a Vale army to reclaim Winterfell, which means that the Vale army can't be as paralyzed as all that if LF is counting on moving them north at some point in the future. TV Sansa is now north with LF at the head of a Vale army, albeit under very different circumstances, which I don't think is a coincidence. It also seems that the books are hinting towards Jon and Sansa meeting each other again (Sansa thinking it would be "sweet" to meet Jon, only to lament that "that could never be"), and it's much more likely that Sansa goes north to Winterfell than Jon comes south to the Vale.

15 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

It's kind of hilarious that Tyrion might hold Joffrey's death against Sansa, a crime he was very certain she didn't commit, while working with the actual murderers of Joffrey and Myrcella. It would make Tyrion look stupid, so it probably won't happen.

TV Tyrion believes in Sansa's innocence (Book Tyrion only thinks she couldn't have acted alone), but TV Sansa at present has no way of knowing that; for all she would know (in a scenario where Jon wants her to go negotiate with Dany), Tyrion believes she not only left him to die but also framed him for murder.

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

On that point, I think everybody other than blatant apologists think the show's handling of the issue is full of holes (if there's no central authority to verify these things, then being married in Westeros really means nothing), but the show isn't going to revisit that sort of stuff since it would just pick holes in the Season 5 plotline.

Agreed. As with many plot developments in the show, the mechanism was messy--non-consummation automatically voids the marriage? Okay, whatever--but the end result is the same (Sansa and Tyrion's marriage is undone), and that's what matters.

11 hours ago, Advance35 said:

According to the show, I do think Tyrion still thinks kindly of Sansa.   It's Jaimie that was suspicious of her.  Tyrion felt that Sansa's disappearance was connected to everything going on but "the girl is no assassin" and "Sansa's no killer, not yet".  He didn't seem to regard her with resentment or suspicion.   He likely still thinks of her as a spacey and flighty young girl who's been through a lot but is mostly harmless.

In terms of Vice Versa, I don't think Sansa has anything against Tyrion but I don't think she has anything for him either.

Vary's, the last time we saw him candidly speak about Sansa was to Shae and he said that "She's a kind, sweet girl and none of this is her fault."  Now he may be up on current events but I doubt he harbors any enmity towards her. (...)

Even assuming that TV Tyrion harbours no ill will towards Sansa, which I'm not sure that we can (since he certainly harboured ill will towards Theon despite not having mentioned him in a long time), and that TV Varys' opinion of Sansa from Season 3 as a sweet, harmless girl would be unaltered by her decision to abandon Tyrion in KL and frame him for her murder (as far as Varys knows, anyway), Varys and Tyrion's opinion of Sansa would turn on a dime if they knew she was palling around with LF. They would write Sansa off either as LF's pathetic dupe (as Tyrion did with Cat) or as LF's malevolent ally.

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

I'd be a bit surprised if Cersei makes it to Season 8.

I'd be shocked.

As for the KL parade scene, any big exterior crowd scene brings the promise of eyewitness videos (like Jaime's confrontation with the Faith at the Sept). We will probably know well in advance of Season 7 exactly what goes down.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

Why exactly were Dontos and the Tyrells more trustworthy than Tyrion? As it turns out they were not, right? The Tyrells were just using her and framed her for murder and Dontos handed her over to LF. Why did Sansa think that their assurances to get her out of KL was trustworthy? Is someone offering to get her out of KL, a measure of trustworthiness? Tyrion also offers to take her to Casterly Rock and away from Joffrey's abuse. Why does she refuse that offer?

...

But the Tyrells ended up framing Sansa for murder, did they not? How were they more trustworthy than Tyrion? Book Tyrion did not try to put Sansa in any kind of danger at the least.

Sansa does not want to go to Casterly Rock.  She wants to escape the Lannisters and get as far away from them as possible.  To that end, she risks trusting Dontos, who she knows is kind of a shabby excuse for a knight, but who is the only route of escape on offer (until the Tyrells appear, and they're a lot more competent-seeming).  Ultimately she comes to see that neither were quite what they appeared to be, but she was not mistaken about Tyrion -- she understood what he was offering perfectly fine, she simply does not want what he wants (which is a continuation of Lannister power, and Sansa still under Lannister power, but more humanely).

Quote

So she refuses the help of the Vale Lords because they did not help Robb but decides to trust the man who acted against her family in KL? What's rational about that?

She did not refuse the help of the Vale lords.  She had no way of knowing if they would help her, which at that stage would involve fighting a civil war for her.  Maybe they would, but she's by that point become a lot more skeptical of trusting in the kindness of strangers; the more naive Sansa of AGOT would have.

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And again with Jeyne. Why can't she ask LF herself as to what happened to Jeyne Poole if she cares so much about her friend? As mentioned above, she knows that LF was the last person to have Jeyne Poole.

This has been debated a lot.  Some suggest she did ask, which I think we'd have seen on-page.  It's also possible that she doesn't really remember that detail, given that that whole period was exceptionally traumatic and she doesn't have the key scenes of her life written down to revisit at leisure like the reader does.  But I think the most likely thing is that, after spending her time in captivity learning not to think about the people she'd lost lest it overwhelm her (that part is canon), questions about Jeyne fall into the same basket of things she isn't asking about to facilitate keeping up the Alayne persona, which has involved repressing rather a lot (something that, as with Joffrey, one imagines will come to a head sooner or later).

[Advance35]

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I do not think about myself as a show apologist and I do not see a plot hole on that. The whole "new Sansa marriage" is explained in the show not only in the Littlefinger-Roose scene. In fact many events in season 4,5 and 6 help to explain it.

I never thought it was overly complicated or convoluted.  In the eyes of the Seven she is married to Tyrion Lannister.  In the eyes of the Old Gods/Trees she is the widower of Ramsay Bolton.

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Even assuming that TV Tyrion harbours no ill will towards Sansa, which I'm not sure that we can (since he certainly harboured ill will towards Theon despite not having mentioned him in a long time), and that TV Varys' opinion of Sansa from Season 3 as a sweet, harmless girl would be unaltered by her decision to abandon Tyrion in KL and frame him for her murder (as far as Varys knows, anyway), Varys and Tyrion's opinion of Sansa would turn on a dime if they knew she was palling around with LF. They would write Sansa off either as LF's pathetic dupe (as Tyrion did with Cat) or as LF's malevolent ally.

I actually don't think they would take a combative viewpoint towards her even if they come to discover how in-league with LF Sansa has been in the past year or so.   I have know doubt Varys is aware of all that's happened with Sansa since he last saw her and a pretty face tends to go a long way with Tyrion.   I think they would see her as a gullible dupe who's been led astray by bad companions.   And I think Tyrion would be moved to try and intervene on her behalf.  I don't recall seeing anything in the show that would make me think that he'd want Sansa's head to roll along with LF's.

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

I've never been quite sure what I think about that.  Baelish evidently thinks imminent action can be taken with the Vale army, if nothing else.

In the books? Baelish is planning to use the Vale army, but only after Sansa has revealed herself during her marriage to Harry the Heir. And first, she has to meet and woo him, then he has to agree with the plan (leading an army to take Winterfell and potentially risking the Lannisters' wrath in the process; he may also need to cut through Freys to reach the north) while Sweetrobin presumably either has to die in the meantime (but not before Sansa marries him, otherwise Baelish loses much of his power in the Vale) or has to agree as well. That's a lot of ifs, especially since Sansa is married (unlike Alayne) and this marriage can't just be ignored (unlike the show). So, Tyrion has to die/be declared dead or her marriage needs to be annulled before the marriage can go through.

So, Baelish is planning "action" at some point. But I didn't at all get the vibe that it was supposed to be imminent, rather the opposite. For now, he is busy making sure he has food to sell when it will be needed most (and thus be at its most valuable).

He needs to neutralise the Lannisters before he can move an army out of the Vale without risking an attack on Vale soil itself. It would seem to me he may be counting on Aegon, or Dany, or both to do this. Moreover, he needs either a fleet or the snows melting to get his army out of the Vale with any semblance of order. If we look at the shape Stannis' southron army is in the north (allthough it was worse in the show and in the books he also has a northern component to his army), it seems like waging war with southern knights in the north in winter is a really bad idea.

Conclusion: Baelish' plans are long-term. He won't make a move until circumstances are right for him.

11 hours ago, anamika said:

[1]Why exactly were Dontos and the Tyrells more trustworthy than Tyrion? As it turns out they were not, right? The Tyrells were just using her and framed her for murder and Dontos handed her over to LF. Why did Sansa think that their assurances to get her out of KL was trustworthy? Is someone offering to get her out of KL, a measure of trustworthiness? Tyrion also offers to take her to Casterly Rock and away from Joffrey's abuse. Why does she refuse that offer?

[2]On the second, in the books, at this point she knows for a fact how untrustworthy LF is. At this point she knows that LF poisoned Jon Arryn and asked Lysa to write to Catelyn blaming the Lannisters. She knows the role LF played against her family in KL.  So she refuses the help of the Vale Lords because they did not help Robb but decides to trust the man who acted against her family in KL? What's rational about that?

[3]Would the fact that the Hound killed Jeyne's Poole father and other Stark men, helped the Lannisters imprison Ned in the dungeons and hold her captive make Sansa try to kill the Hound?

[1] In the books, the Tyrells seem to have been sincere in their desire to marry Willas to Sansa, a plan Sansa could get behind. The plan fell through because she told Dontos, who told LF who told the Lannisters. Tyrion was manipulated (not commanded the way he was in the show) to step in on behalf of Tywin to torpedo the Tyrell plan without given open offense to the Tyrells: he was to marry Sansa before the Tyrells realised what was happening, making her unavalaible for Willas. Tyrion complied and kept his mouth shut, not telling anything to Sansa, partly because he didn't want to displease his father, partly because he was told he would never get a wife otherwise and partly because he wanted the castle and lands of Winterfell (in essence, the marriage was a Lannister landgrab). I think this turn of events makes it clear why nor Dontos, nor Tyrion were trustworthy allies for Sansa, and while the Tyrells actually had better plans for her at that time. Only after the marriage did most of them drop Sansa like a stone.

Note that in the show, the Lannisters had no need for secrecy (Tywin bullied the Tyrells in the show) and Tyrion did tell Sansa well in advance, while Margaery was not aware of the plan to poison Joffrey and frame Sansa and/or Tyrion (in the books, she was likely at least aware of the poisoning, though she was one of few Tyrells who seemed sad at the Sansa-Tyrion marriage). 

[2] I doubt Sansa has registered Lysa's words, given that she had just narrowly escaped from the moondoor and Baelish killed Lysa right afterwards. She also is not aware what "tears of Lys" are and probably not aware of the contents (and effect on Catelyn) of Lysa's letter. Older, more savvy show-Sansa was not shown to get equivalent information.

[3] I find it hard to believe that people are genuinely arguing that Sansa wouldn't care that Baelish had her father murdered. Of course that would matter, matter enough for her to turn on Baelish even if they were staunch allies just before she would have learned that. Ned was her father, she wasn't laughing when he died. It changed her relationship with Joffrey and with Cersei, for sure. And she was blind about them, before.

Sansa has always been well aware that the Hound was a loyal sword for the Lannisters, and even for Joffrey in particular. She knows he was mean and that he cut down Starks and took her captive. But she also knows he saved her life (when she wanted to commit suicide by taking down Joffrey from the battlements, and again during the riots), that he covered for her during her secret meetings with Dontos and that he ditched Joffrey and the Lannisters. He had never pretended to be her friend, he was an enemy who nevertheless helped her more than anybody else in KL, arguably even including Tyrion.

Baelish, on the other hand, pretends to be her friend while he had a major hand in her misery. Far more than she realises at present.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

1. TV Sansa was outright pals with him...before she learned about the RW. In the books, she also considers one of the terrible things done to her being forced to marry Tyrion, and the great service LF rendered her (apart from saving her from Lysa) freeing her from her marriage.

2. I don't know whether Tyrion would have it out for Sansa (Book Tyrion does), but Sansa would have every reason to assume that he did and act accordingly. We don't know whether TV Tyrion has any feelings of ill will towards Sansa, since he hasn't mentioned her since Season 4, but he certainly hadn't forgotten about Theon's past behaviour towards him and was happy to bring it up when Theon begged Dany for help, despite not having mentioned Theon for a long time, so...

3. I'm guessing any such request would come in private, and Sansa would negotiate her way out of it in private as well. I'm guessing if Jon tries to throw his weight around by calling Sansa's disagreement treason, it won't go well for him.

4. Unless the scheme LF described at the end of AFFC is total bullshit, as SeanC pointed out, Book LF is ultimately planning to take Sansa north under her own name at the head of a Vale army to reclaim Winterfell, which means that the Vale army can't be as paralyzed as all that if LF is counting on moving them north at some point in the future. TV Sansa is now north with LF at the head of a Vale army, albeit under very different circumstances, which I don't think is a coincidence. It also seems that the books are hinting towards Jon and Sansa meeting each other again (Sansa thinking it would be "sweet" to meet Jon, only to lament that "that could never be"), and it's much more likely that Sansa goes north to Winterfell than Jon comes south to the Vale.

1. Yes, book-Sansa understands that the marriage was a hostile act and this illustrates that book-Tyrion was not an ally of her. In the show, things were different, IIRC also after the RW. It did cause Sansa to go cold on Tyrion for a while, but by the time of Joffrey's wedding, she was caring about him again, like when the dwarf farce was played out.

2. I don't think book-Tyrion has it  out for Sansa, exactly. During ADWD, he has it out for everyone and he shows major irritation over losing Sansa and over her reaction to the marriage ("all the girls cry when I want to kiss them" - a sarcastic line during one of his Essosi travelogues). He also calls her "false", at some point, along with Shae. But by the end of a book, he is already using the marriage to keep Penny at a distance and there is a strange exchange in his last chapter:

"Q: What do you miss, Halfman?"

A: Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew."

The way the sentence is constructed suggests he is not referring to Tysha twice, allthough it is deliberately left vague as he arguably hardly knew either of his wives. He does miss Jaime and Shae as well, suggesting he is starting to get over some of his more intense feelings of hate (though Cersei and Tywin are not on the list, to be sure). I suspect that Jaime may be the possible reason for one of Dany's three betrayals (in this case, that would be by Tyrion).

3. True, allthough in private, Jon could plead more effectively with her than in public.

4. It's quite possible LF is not thruthful regarding his own plans (he did refuse to tell her who "the three queens" would be, and he did not mention Dany allthough he likely has to factor her in his plans. It also seems doubtful he has no other plan but to wait until Tyrion happens to fall dead). Even if he is not, the key word is "eventually", as I argue in my response to Sean, at the top of this post.

[Wouter]

18 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I never thought it was overly complicated or convoluted.  In the eyes of the Seven she is married to Tyrion Lannister.  In the eyes of the Old Gods/Trees she is the widower of Ramsay Bolton.

That's how I see it, to. For the north, the Old Gods count (and LF can indulge the Old Gods and forget about the Seven when it suits him, or vice-versa; it's not like he believes any of it, and officially Sansa was taken against his and her will anyway so his hands are clean). For the followers of the Seven, a marriage performed by heretics is not valid if there was a perfectly valid marriage done under the light of the seven, before. 

[Jazzy24]

19 minutes ago, Wouter said:

In the books? Baelish is planning to use the Vale army, but only after Sansa has revealed herself during her marriage to Harry the Heir. And first, she has to meet and woo him, then he has to agree with the plan (leading an army to take Winterfell and potentially risking the Lannisters' wrath in the process; he may also need to cut through Freys to reach the north) while Sweetrobin presumably either has to die in the meantime (but not before Sansa marries him, otherwise Baelish loses much of his power in the Vale) or has to agree as well. That's a lot of ifs, especially since Sansa is married (unlike Alayne) and this marriage can't just be ignored (unlike the show). So, Tyrion has to die/be declared dead or her marriage needs to be annulled before the marriage can go through.

So, Baelish is planning "action" at some point. But I didn't at all get the vibe that it was supposed to be imminent, rather the opposite. For now, he is busy making sure he has food to sell when it will be needed most (and thus be at its most valuable).

He needs to neutralise the Lannisters before he can move an army out of the Vale without risking an attack on Vale soil itself. It would seem to me he may be counting on Aegon, or Dany, or both to do this. Moreover, he needs either a fleet or the snows melting to get his army out of the Vale with any semblance of order. If we look at the shape Stannis' southron army is in the north (allthough it was worse in the show and in the books he also has a northern component to his army), it seems like waging war with southern knights in the north in winter is a really bad idea.

Conclusion: Baelish' plans are long-term. He won't make a move until circumstances are right for him.

[1] In the books, the Tyrells seem to have been sincere in their desire to marry Willas to Sansa, a plan Sansa could get behind. The plan fell through because she told Dontos, who told LF who told the Lannisters. Tyrion was manipulated (not commanded the way he was in the show) to step in on behalf of Tywin to torpedo the Tyrell plan without given open offense to the Tyrells: he was to marry Sansa before the Tyrells realised what was happening, making her unavalaible for Willas. Tyrion complied and kept his mouth shut, not telling anything to Sansa, partly because he didn't want to displease his father, partly because he was told he would never get a wife otherwise and partly because he wanted the castle and lands of Winterfell (in essence, the marriage was a Lannister landgrab). I think this turn of events makes it clear why nor Dontos, nor Tyrion were trustworthy allies for Sansa, and while the Tyrells actually had better plans for her at that time. Only after the marriage did most of them drop Sansa like a stone.

Note that in the show, the Lannisters had no need for secrecy (Tywin bullied the Tyrells in the show) and Tyrion did tell Sansa well in advance, while Margaery was not aware of the plan to poison Joffrey and frame Sansa and/or Tyrion (in the books, she was likely at least aware of the poisoning, though she was one of few Tyrells who seemed sad at the Sansa-Tyrion marriage). 

[2] I doubt Sansa has registered Lysa's words, given that she had just narrowly escaped from the moondoor and Baelish killed Lysa right afterwards. She also is not aware what "tears of Lys" are and probably not aware of the contents (and effect on Catelyn) of Lysa's letter. Older, more savvy show-Sansa was not shown to get equivalent information.

[3] I find it hard to believe that people are genuinely arguing that Sansa wouldn't care that Baelish had her father murdered. Of course that would matter, matter enough for her to turn on Baelish even if they were staunch allies just before she would have learned that. Ned was her father, she wasn't laughing when he died. It changed her relationship with Joffrey and with Cersei, for sure. And she was blind about them, before.

Sansa has always been well aware that the Hound was a loyal sword for the Lannisters, and even for Joffrey in particular. She knows he was mean and that he cut down Starks and took her captive. But she also knows he saved her life (when she wanted to commit suicide by taking down Joffrey from the battlements, and again during the riots), that he covered for her during her secret meetings with Dontos and that he ditched Joffrey and the Lannisters. He had never pretended to be her friend, he was an enemy who nevertheless helped her more than anybody else in KL, arguably even including Tyrion.

Baelish, on the other hand, pretends to be her friend while he had a major hand in her misery. Far more than she realises at present.

1. Yes, book-Sansa understands that the marriage was a hostile act and this illustrates that book-Tyrion was not an ally of her. In the show, things were different, IIRC also after the RW. It did cause Sansa to go cold on Tyrion for a while, but by the time of Joffrey's wedding, she was caring about him again, like when the dwarf farce was played out.

2. I don't think book-Tyrion has it  out for Sansa, exactly. During ADWD, he has it out for everyone and he shows major irritation over losing Sansa and over her reaction to the marriage ("all the girls cry when I want to kiss them" - a sarcastic line during one of his Essosi travelogues). He also calls her "false", at some point, along with Shae. But by the end of a book, he is already using the marriage to keep Penny at a distance and there is a strange exchange in his last chapter:

"Q: What do you miss, Halfman?"

A: Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew."

The way the sentence is constructed suggests he is not referring to Tysha twice, allthough it is deliberately left vague as he arguably hardly knew either of his wives. He does miss Jaime and Shae as well, suggesting he is starting to get over some of his more intense feelings of hate (though Cersei and Tywin are not on the list, to be sure). I suspect that Jaime may be the possible reason for one of Dany's three betrayals (in this case, that would be by Tyrion).

3. True, allthough in private, Jon could plead more effectively with her than in public.

4. It's quite possible LF is not thruthful regarding his own plans (he did refuse to tell her who "the three queens" would be, and he did not mention Dany allthough he likely has to factor her in his plans. It also seems doubtful he has no other plan but to wait until Tyrion happens to fall dead). Even if he is not, the key word is "eventually", as I argue in my response to Sean, at the top of this post.

Littlefinger ain't got nothing to worry about from the Lannisters in the books. 

Kevan is dead, Cersei just got publicly stripped of power, their army is small and sparse, Jaime is about to meet SH and they are outnumbered in every way that matters in KL by the Tyrells. 

[Wouter]

2 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

Littlefinger ain't got nothing to worry about from the Lannisters in the books. 

Kevan is dead, Cersei just got publicly stripped of power, their army is small and sparse, Jaime is about to meet SH and they are outnumbered in every way that matters in KL by the Tyrells. 

The Riverland army of the Lannisters, led by Daven in Jaime's absence, is still a not-negligible force. They have Frey allies that have good reason to be hostile to Baelish (who is nominally their overlord as lord of Harrenhall and lord paramount of the Riverlands, granted by Tywin) and to Sansa.

The Tyrell-Lannister alliance could burst any minute now, but as long as it is nominally there Baelish has to consider the possibility that the Tyrell army may turn on him. Mace believes Sansa wanted to poison his daughter, and Olenna may or may not wish Baelish and Sansa to be silent forever.

In the show, Cersei made a spectacular comeback. We'll see if she can still do something in the books, allthough with Aegon coming things may turn out differently. The dead of Kevan in the books may be good for her, though, as Kevan used to have her well under control.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Wouter

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

1. Yes, book-Sansa understands that the marriage was a hostile act and this illustrates that book-Tyrion was not an ally of her. In the show, things were different, IIRC also after the RW. It did cause Sansa to go cold on Tyrion for a while, but by the time of Joffrey's wedding, she was caring about him again, like when the dwarf farce was played out.

2. I don't think book-Tyrion has it  out for Sansa, exactly. During ADWD, he has it out for everyone and he shows major irritation over losing Sansa and over her reaction to the marriage ("all the girls cry when I want to kiss them" - a sarcastic line during one of his Essosi travelogues). He also calls her "false", at some point, along with Shae. But by the end of a book, he is already using the marriage to keep Penny at a distance and there is a strange exchange in his last chapter:

"Q: What do you miss, Halfman?"

A: Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew."

The way the sentence is constructed suggests he is not referring to Tysha twice, allthough it is deliberately left vague as he arguably hardly knew either of his wives.

1. TV Sansa had a more pressing interest in getting along with Tyrion, since she didn't have the escape plan in her pocket and as far as she knew, help was never coming. Once she's away from KL, when she speaks well of Tyrion she usually has a reason for doing so (convincing Lysa that Tyrion didn't rape her, trying to stop Ramsay from raping her, etc.).

2. Although it is arguably ambiguous, you're correct that Tyrion has it out for Sansa along with everyone else through most of ADWD, so I wouldn't get hung up on the use of a period rather than a comma. In context, the most logical explanation is that Tyrion was referencing Tysha, whom he dwells on in ADWD and whom he loved, as the wife he misses, "the wife I hardly knew." As he thinks at another point, Sansa and Shae were "false," and Tysha was the only one who ever loved him. I don't think his decision to use his marriage to Sansa to keep Penny at a distance reflects any fond feelings; he's even amused by the idea that Penny would buy his blatant lies about wanting to remain true to Sansa.

[SeanC]

Per WOTW, Gemma Whelan was apparently injured onset and had to go the hospital.

[Lady S.]

23 hours ago, SeanC said:

I'm interested to see whether that actually comes into play in Season 6 or if the Viewer's Guide is just including stuff from the season finale (e.g., the reference to Sansa as Lady of Winterfell) and it's not actually an important plot point.  If they're looking to generate friction between Jon and Sansa, the awkwardness of the arrangements around Winterfell would certainly be a way to do it.

Yeah, the Viewer's Guide is a better show canon source than the GoT wiki but it's still not infallible. Last I checked, the Night's Watch page had Dolorous Edd listed as both Eddison Tollett (in his character entry) and incorrectly, as Eddard Tollett (in the NW description listing him as current LC). There have been plenty of other mistakes or changes during the time I've been keeping up with that site. It's also possible that D&D did intend the battlements scene to mean Winterfell is Sansa's but that won't be an important plot point because LF wants her to claim the whole North, not just the castle. Trying to openly eject a kingly guest from Winterfell would be awkward, and direct confrontation is not LF's style of politics. 

In any case Jon is not a king with no lands or castles. The entire North is his land and he could claim the Last Hearth or Karhold as his to do with as he wishes, and if time allowed, which it obviously doesn't, he could build a new seat anywhere in the North. Not to mention that even if he keeps the Snow name, he has been publically acclaimed as a Stark and is Sansa's only possible heir until she re-marries and has a child (or until Bran, rightful heir to both Winterfell and the kingship, returns). So, aside from the Vale, it's not really much different than Robb's situation in the riverlands, where Catelyn's line would inherit Riverrun if Edmure died childless, and Robb could have built a new castle in the riverlands as his own second seat because Edmure's bannermen had acclaimed him as Edmure's overlord. (Doubtless Lord Hoster wouldn't have had a problem with joining his grandson's kingdom but he was never consulted, and Edmure, acting in his stead, was not consulted by the riverlords either before they shouted their support for Robb. The show's version of the original KitN scene goes further and excludes Edmure entirely, though the first speaker was credited as Jonos Bracken.) The question is whether Jon would be willing to go against Sansa, not whether he has any power or right to do so.

On 9/15/2016 at 3:27 PM, SeanC said:

Speaking of whom, I was thinking about what potentially might come of Mel running into Arya.  A lot of people have been assuming that Arya's just going to kill her, which I'm skeptical of since that seems like kind of an odd ending to Mel's story, and if Arya was going to kill her, it makes little sense for them to have dropped her from Arya's list beginning in Season 5.  Plus, the only reason Arya wants to kill her is Gendry, who's alive and is returning to the series (apparently).  That made me wonder if Arya's not going to demand that Mel take her to wherever Gendry is, if she was worried about him, and since Gendry isn't hanging with the Brotherhood in the show (or seemingly in the Riverlands at all).  That may be too elaborate for the show, of course, and they'll just have Gendry conveniently be wherever Arya runs across him despite earlier plot changes.  But it seems like Arya meeting Mel again must have some big significance, and Arya just killing her seems an awkward fit to me.

Yeah, I've been wondering whether Gendry's return could be related to Mel too. The idea of those three characters reunited is pretty amusing to me.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Once she's away from KL, when she speaks well of Tyrion she usually has a reason for doing so....
 

To have a reason to say good things about someone does not mean they are not true or that the character does not think the same. She even talks that way about Tyrion when she is talking alone with Petyr. In any case, if we tie her words about Tyrion post Purple Wedding with their scenes together before that, then , they give us a strong clue than she still thinks friendly about him. It seems like the showrunners wanted to establish a friendly relationship between both characters.

 

51 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Yeah, I've been wondering whether Gendry's return could be related to Mel too. The idea of those three characters reunited is pretty amusing to me.

I have a theory that Gendry will be used as a plot device to contrast pre-Red-Wedding Arya with Season7-Arya. She changed a lot emotionally. If she reunites with Mel, Mel will be used to point the growing darkness within her, a sort of continuation of their previous conversation.

Edited September 16, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[SimoneS]

Maybe Arya saves Gendry from Melisandre. 

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Per WOTW, Gemma Whelan was apparently injured onset and had to go the hospital.

I hope that she isn't seriously hurt. 

[screamin]

On 9/14/2016 at 9:37 PM, Eyes High said:

Me : Yes, GRRM did not write Baelish as a two dimensional cardboard monster with no human traits. But it does not follow that he sees LF the way Sansa sees LF.

On 9/14/2016 at 9:37 PM, Eyes High said:

Sure it does. He compared LF to Gatsby, for crying out loud. If that doesn't tell you something about GRRM's view of LF's nature, I don't know what to tell you.

 

So in your view, GRRM sees LF exactly the way a powerless girl who is completely at LF's mercy after witnessing him murder people and is required to act convincingly affectionate toward him at all times sees LF. As a good writer, he writes every other character's view of LF (and their view of every other character, for that matter) as colored by their personality and experiences...but for Sansa's point of view, and ONLY for Sansa's point of view, he writes viewing LF through a lens absolutely free of distortions...he writes as though Sansa were GRRM in a cute coronet of braids and a pretty Tully-colored gown, in other words.

Sorry. Not believable to me.

[anamika]

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa does not want to go to Casterly Rock.  She wants to escape the Lannisters and get as far away from them as possible.  To that end, she risks trusting Dontos, who she knows is kind of a shabby excuse for a knight, but who is the only route of escape on offer (until the Tyrells appear, and they're a lot more competent-seeming).  Ultimately she comes to see that neither were quite what they appeared to be, but she was not mistaken about Tyrion -- she understood what he was offering perfectly fine, she simply does not want what he wants (which is a continuation of Lannister power, and Sansa still under Lannister power, but more humanely)

But then she was just making the same blunders by trusting the words of folks who were giving her false assurances. Tyrion had already protected her from Joffrey's abuse, did not partake in his marital rights and rape her, and gave her as much freedom as was in his power to give her. But instead of trusting him, she trusted people who thus far had done nothing to help her other than give her assurances of getting her out of KL.  What did they do for her to earn her trust?

If she had gone with Tyrion to Casterly Rock, she would have escaped being framed for Joffrey's murder and LF.  It shows that she learned nothing after trusting Cersei and Joffrey, as opposed to her own family, because they promised to make her queen. This time she went on to trust the Tyrells and Dontos because she wanted to marry handsome Willas Tyrell (As opposed to ugly Tyrion Lannister) and get out of KL. These are the choices of a naive girl who again puts physical appearances and nice words ahead of actions.

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

She did not refuse the help of the Vale lords.  She had no way of knowing if they would help her, which at that stage would involve fighting a civil war for her.  Maybe they would, but she's by that point become a lot more skeptical of trusting in the kindness of strangers; the more naive Sansa of AGOT would have.

 So instead she decides to trust and stay with the treacherous man who she knows deceived her mother and sided against her family in KL? Good choice there.

16 hours ago, SeanC said:

This has been debated a lot.  Some suggest she did ask, which I think we'd have seen on-page.  It's also possible that she doesn't really remember that detail, given that that whole period was exceptionally traumatic and she doesn't have the key scenes of her life written down to revisit at leisure like the reader does.  But I think the most likely thing is that, after spending her time in captivity learning not to think about the people she'd lost lest it overwhelm her (that part is canon), questions about Jeyne fall into the same basket of things she isn't asking about to facilitate keeping up the Alayne persona, which has involved repressing rather a lot (something that, as with Joffrey, one imagines will come to a head sooner or later).

   If she had asked him, we would have seen it on page. So she did not ask him. 

 So then we come to the usual excuses of Sansa forgetting about it, being too traumatized to remember it, forgetting about her friends and family because it is too traumatizing, because she was trying to become Alayne etc.  If this person is so traumatized as to forget important information like what happened to Jeyne Poole, then how in the world is she going to become some kind of master player akin to LF and Varys? She is then a Stockholm syndrome suffering, mentally traumatized child blocking all memories and information and just trying to survive - that's her story. Not learning to play the game. Because how can she even begin to play the game when she cannot remember the things happening right in front of her or process information, let along actively getting information from other sources.

12 hours ago, Wouter said:

[1] In the books, the Tyrells seem to have been sincere in their desire to marry Willas to Sansa, a plan Sansa could get behind. The plan fell through because she told Dontos, who told LF who told the Lannisters. Tyrion was manipulated (not commanded the way he was in the show) to step in on behalf of Tywin to torpedo the Tyrell plan without given open offense to the Tyrells: he was to marry Sansa before the Tyrells realised what was happening, making her unavalaible for Willas. Tyrion complied and kept his mouth shut, not telling anything to Sansa, partly because he didn't want to displease his father, partly because he was told he would never get a wife otherwise and partly because he wanted the castle and lands of Winterfell (in essence, the marriage was a Lannister landgrab). I think this turn of events makes it clear why nor Dontos, nor Tyrion were trustworthy allies for Sansa, and while the Tyrells actually had better plans for her at that time. Only after the marriage did most of them drop Sansa like a stone.

These are the facts: Tyrion, Tyrells, Dontos and LF were all using Sansa as a pawn for their own advantage. Tyrion also protected Sansa from Joffrey, kept away from her because she was repulsed by him and offered to take Sansa to Casterly Rock - away from Joffrey's abuse. She refuses any and all overtures or offers of help from him despite these moments of kindness that he shows her. But the idea of being married to handsome Willas Tyrell pulls her towards the Tyrells who then frame Sansa for murder. Dontos sold her for gain. LF set up the whole situation (Telling Tywin about the Tyrell's marriage plot). I think I can safely say that of all these folks, Tyrion alone never set up Sansa to be harmed. He did not actively set out to trick Sansa. It was Sansa who lied to him by meeting secretly with Dontos who ended up fooling her.

12 hours ago, Wouter said:

[2] I doubt Sansa has registered Lysa's words, given that she had just narrowly escaped from the moondoor and Baelish killed Lysa right afterwards. She also is not aware what "tears of Lys" are and probably not aware of the contents (and effect on Catelyn) of Lysa's letter. Older, more savvy show-Sansa was not shown to get equivalent information.

Once again, we come to the excuse of Sansa not registering or remembering things happening right in front of her.  This then proves my case that she is unfit to become any kind of player, considering her inability to register, remember or analyze things that happen right in front of her.

This is also makes my case, that GRRM uses Sansa more as a narrator or a camera for the the audience into the events happening in KL and the Vale. She tells the reader all these things, but the character herself never introspects or thinks on this information. Which is why the character herself never grows or develops over 4 books - she is more or less the same from book 2 to 5.

12 hours ago, Wouter said:

[3] I find it hard to believe that people are genuinely arguing that Sansa wouldn't care that Baelish had her father murdered. Of course that would matter, matter enough for her to turn on Baelish even if they were staunch allies just before she would have learned that. Ned was her father, she wasn't laughing when he died. It changed her relationship with Joffrey and with Cersei, for sure. And she was blind about them, before.

Sansa has always been well aware that the Hound was a loyal sword for the Lannisters, and even for Joffrey in particular. She knows he was mean and that he cut down Starks and took her captive. But she also knows he saved her life (when she wanted to commit suicide by taking down Joffrey from the battlements, and again during the riots), that he covered for her during her secret meetings with Dontos and that he ditched Joffrey and the Lannisters. He had never pretended to be her friend, he was an enemy who nevertheless helped her more than anybody else in KL, arguably even including Tyrion.

LF has also saved her life. If he had not got her out of KL when she was framed for murder, she would be dead. If he had not stepped in, then Lysa would have killed her. LF has always treated her well. He has never abused her physically or verbally like the Hound did. LF often compliments her and praises her intelligence and is helping her become heiress to the Vale.

And who exactly knows that Baelish had her father murdered? As mentioned earlier, the idea that he got Joffrey to order Ned's death is an unverifiable suspicion. All everyone knows was that he acted with the Lannisters against the Starks in KL. Which the Hound is equally guilty of. Besides how can Sansa forgive the Hound for slaughtering Stark men including Jeyne's father? You find it hard to believe that people are arguing for Sansa not caring that LF killed her father but at the same time you are arguing for Sansa not being too bothered that her boyfriend killed Jeyne's father because he saved her life. Something that LF has also done. Several times. At the end of the day, there is no difference between the Hound and LF.

Edited September 17, 2016 by anamika

[Eyes High]

Hope Gemma Whelan recovers soon! I thought I read that she had injured her back.

7 hours ago, anamika said:

And who exactly knows that Baelish had her father murdered? As mentioned earlier, the idea that he got Joffrey to order Ned's death is an unverifiable suspicion. All everyone knows was that he acted with the Lannisters against the Starks in KL. Which the Hound is equally guilty of. Besides how can Sansa forgive the Hound for slaughtering Stark men including Jeyne's father? You find it hard to believe that people are arguing for Sansa not caring that LF killed her father but at the same time you are arguing for Sansa not being too bothered that her boyfriend killed Jeyne's father because he saved her life. Something that LF has also done. Several times. At the end of the day, there is no difference between the Hound and LF.

The idea that the Hound would have beef with LF for putting a knife to Ned's throat is pretty silly, given that at that precise moment the Hound was killing Ned's men and would have killed Ned--Joffrey had just ordered it--had LF not gotten to Ned first. LF in that moment actually saved Ned's life.

We also know, courtesy of Cersei's POV, that Book LF along with Varys brokered the deal that would have sent Ned to the Wall. What we don't know is that LF got Joffrey to change his mind. Maybe, maybe not. Even if he did, the only person other than LF who would have firsthand knowledge of that transaction (Joffrey) is dead.

Quote

So in your view, GRRM sees LF exactly the way a powerless girl who is completely at LF's mercy after witnessing him murder people and is required to act convincingly affectionate toward him at all times sees LF. As a good writer, he writes every other character's view of LF (and their view of every other character, for that matter) as colored by their personality and experiences...but for Sansa's point of view, and ONLY for Sansa's point of view, he writes viewing LF through a lens absolutely free of distortions...he writes as though Sansa were GRRM in a cute coronet of braids and a pretty Tully-colored gown, in other words.

The comparison to other characters makes no sense. No other character has the opportunity to form the view of LF that Sansa does, since he's not showing that side of himself to anyone or confiding in anyone else as he does with her. The person who comes closest is Cat, who remembers him and sees him as an older version of the sweet, kind boy she knew as a child, but Cat of course didn't understand as Sansa does his capacity for ruthlessness (and Cat in AGOT hadn't seen LF for several years). Sansa's view of LF, in that she understands that there are two competing sides to his nature, is GRRM's view. Because of her unique position in the books, she is the only one capable of making that observation. She is not GRRM with braids and a gown (now there's an image that will linger), but she's the closest anyone in the books will get, since she's the only one who's close enough to him to see both sides of LF. It's not controversial to point out that Sansa, being closest to LF and being his confidant for the longest period of time, has a better read on him than anyone else: that's just common sense. That GRRM compared LF to Gatsby and has made other comments in interviews to the effect that LF alternates between genuinely caring for Sansa and being a self-serving manipulator reinforces that Sansa's impression of him is the correct one, which again should hardly be surprising given their close relationship.

As for the "powerless girl" bit, Sansa was equally helpless and powerless in KL and required to feign affection for Cersei and Joffrey, but her powerlessness and her survival instinct never once led her to form false impressions of them once she realized how dangerous they were, nor to project positive qualities on to them that they did not possess (in ACOK/ASOS). She must act "convincingly affectionate" towards them to save her skin, but she never wavers in how much she fears them, hates them, and hopes for their deaths. Nor did Tyrion's kindness towards her while she was under the Lannisters' thumb lead her to form a falsely positive impression of him, despite particularly oppressive circumstances and strong incentives for Sansa to see him in an overly positive light or to feel conflicted about her hatred and distrust of all Lannisters; she begins the marriage and ends it thinking he's not quite as bad as Joffrey, and that's as far as it goes. By the time AFFC rolls around, Sansa's a dab hand at pretending to care about people she secretly hates.

She may be powerless and at LF's mercy, just as she was at the Lannisters', but that doesn't mean that she's wrong about LF, or that her impressions of LF of truly caring for her and of having a good side that's part of who he is must be written off as a product of her circumstances. Even if they could be written off as false and fake and the product of a survival mechanism, etc. etc., just as with Dany and Drogo, what matters is not how the feelings came about, but that those feelings are real to her. Dany in remembering Drogo notes that he could be cruel and dangerous, but that she came to love him anyway. It's her love for him that matters to her in the long run, not his undeniable capacity for cruelty. In similar relationships, GRRM has always focused on the feelings, not how they came about.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

But then she was just making the same blunders by trusting the words of folks who were giving her false assurances. Tyrion had already protected her from Joffrey's abuse, did not partake in his marital rights and rape her, and gave her as much freedom as was in his power to give her. But instead of trusting him, she trusted people who thus far had done nothing to help her other than give her assurances of getting her out of KL.  What did they do for her to earn her trust?If she had gone with Tyrion to Casterly Rock, she would have escaped being framed for Joffrey's murder and LF.  It shows that she learned nothing after trusting Cersei and Joffrey, as opposed to her own family, because they promised to make her queen. This time she went on to trust the Tyrells and Dontos because she wanted to marry handsome Willas Tyrell (As opposed to ugly Tyrion Lannister) and get out of KL. These are the choices of a naive girl who again puts physical appearances and nice words ahead of actions.

Again, no, she is aware that Tyrion is "kind", as she repeatedly puts it; that's why she, e.g., regards him more favourably than Lancel.  But she is not naive about his actions.  He tries to make her captivity more comfortable -- nothing more.  And Sansa is not interested in spending the rest of her life in Lannister captivity.

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So instead she decides to trust and stay with the treacherous man who she knows deceived her mother and sided against her family in KL? Good choice there.

When her primary concern at that point is her own survival, sure.

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If this person is so traumatized as to forget important information like what happened to Jeyne Poole, then how in the world is she going to become some kind of master player akin to LF and Varys? She is then a Stockholm syndrome suffering, mentally traumatized child blocking all memories and information and just trying to survive - that's her story. Not learning to play the game. Because how can she even begin to play the game when she cannot remember the things happening right in front of her or process information, let along actively getting information from other sources.

Take it up with GRRM.  And yes, her tendency to play down things she can't do anything about is certainly something that has to be overcome for her to pass beyond a certain stage; that's drama.

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I think I can safely say that of all these folks, Tyrion alone never set up Sansa to be harmed. 

He is part of the government holding her prisoner in King's Landing.  That is rather harmful.

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This is also makes my case, that GRRM uses Sansa more as a narrator or a camera for the the audience into the events happening in KL and the Vale. She tells the reader all these things, but the character herself never introspects or thinks on this information. Which is why the character herself never grows or develops over 4 books - she is more or less the same from book 2 to 5.

Also not true,  Sansa changes quite a lot.  But beyond that, the whole notion of Sansa as a camera (which is not infrequently brought up by critics) does not hold up.  Sansa is, in fact, learning to analyze things from all the observing she does; that doesn't mean she sees everything.  For instance, she has a flash of insight into the Tyrells' plans very early in ASOS, but, even if she hadn't talked herself out of her own instinct (talking herself out of her own gut reactions is a recurring problem beginning in AGOT, something she gradually gets better at as she develops more confidence and becomes less fixated on her early notions of how things should be), she would have had nowhere near enough information to carry it much further.

But more to the point, the whole notion of Sansa as primarily a camera falls apart because for the first three books she shows us very little that either (a) could not be shown through other POV characters or (b) has real relevance to characters other than her.  In the latter category would fall things like her interactions with the Hound, Dontos, the Tyrells, etc.; if Sansa was not a significant character, there would be no reason for us to see any of these things.

Edited September 17, 2016 by SeanC

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As for the "powerless girl" bit, Sansa was equally helpless and powerless in KL and required to feign affection for Cersei and Joffrey, but her powerlessness and her survival instinct never once led her to form false impressions of them once she realized how dangerous they were, nor to project positive qualities on to them that they did not possess (in ACOK/ASOS).

There are significant differences between  Sansa's situation at KL and "Alayne's" situation in the Vale. In the Red Keep Sansa was officially and openly a prisoner. The Lannisters allowed her no freedom, and severely curtailed her contact with others, forbidding servants to speak with her (thus, BTW, leaving her largely ignorant of what went down with her father for things she wasn't present for, including LF's betrayal of him). Her noble peers treated her like a pariah. And none of the Lannisters made the least effort to win her trust or gain her understanding by explaining things for her (even Tyrion, after marrying her for her claim, made only the least effort to talk to her before subsiding in sodden self-pity over Sansa's coldness).

LF, OTOH, has given her the freedom of anonymity in the Vale. She is no longer Sansa the traitor's daughter; she is Alayne Stone, free to gossip with the servants and make herself useful and indispensable in charming visitors and managing the tantrums of Sweetrobin. And LF, instead of merely being a Lannister dispenser of threats if she puts one foot out of line, has cleverly made Sansa a confidante, telling her things and explaining his machinations to her instead of keeping her in the terrifying dark the way her previous prisonkeepers did. More darkly, he has forced her into the role of his accomplice in the past crime of Lysa, and blames her for any future murders he will commit to kill anyone she accidentally lets slip any of their secrets to ("...do you want MORE blood on your pretty hands?...") Most cleverly of all, he has made his castle's environs a tiny circle of 'safety' in a hostile world where Sansa is wanted for murder. He has made himself the ONLY one she can talk to freely at all. Her only safety is to wear the mask he gave her of loving inconsequential daughter at all times, and she knows that if she ever lets it slip LF will notice if he's with her, or be told of it by a servant if he's not, so her safety depends on cultivating a capacity to deceive at all times, including, IMO, herself.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The comparison to other characters makes no sense. No other character has the opportunity to form the view of LF that Sansa does, since he's not showing that side of himself to anyone or confiding in anyone else as he does with her. The person who comes closest is Cat, who remembers him and sees him as an older version of the sweet, kind boy she knew as a child, but Cat of course didn't understand as Sansa does his capacity for ruthlessness (and Cat in AGOT hadn't seen LF for several years). Sansa's view of LF, in that she understands that there are two competing sides to his nature, is GRRM's view.

 

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

She may be powerless and at LF's mercy, just as she was at the Lannisters', but that doesn't mean that she's wrong about LF, or that her impressions of LF of truly caring for her and of having a good side that's part of who he is must be written off as a product of her circumstances. Even if they could be written off as false and fake and the product of a survival mechanism, etc. etc., just as with Dany and Drogo, what matters is not how the feelings came about, but that those feelings are real to her. Dany in remembering Drogo notes that he could be cruel and dangerous, but that she came to love him anyway. It's her love for him that matters to her in the long run, not his undeniable capacity for cruelty. In similar relationships, GRRM has always focused on the feelings, not how they came about.

You may call Stockholm Syndrome 'love' if you like, but there's a reason the term was invented, instead of simply saying "The hostages fell in love with the armed kidnappers who threatened them with death." It's a recognition that the feeling differs from normal love, and is a response to extreme and threatening circumstances, in which the person falling in "love" minimizes the danger the threatener poses and magnifies his good points in her own eyes. It may seem an irrational response on the surface, but it is useful because it can cause the threatener to mirror and respond, making him emotionally invested in the hostage and thus less inclined to kill her. What it doesn't do is cause the hostage to see the threatener and her relationship with him objectively, exactly as it is. It puts rose-colored glasses on the situation, because the actual reality is too terrifying to endure without them. And indeed, I don't understand why you think even normal love causes someone to see the beloved clearly and objectively. IMO it's far more common to cause people to see their beloveds as better than they are. How many people see their friends' significant others as raging assholes - and their friends dismiss and deny and excuse their bad behavior because they love them?

"In similar relationships..." No, there is no similar relationship in ASOIAF. Drogo was straightforward with Dany, did not threaten her life or deceive and manipulate her, gave her power of a queenship when she had been powerless, and was not a criminal by the lights of the society he lived in. Like a good writer, GRRM tries to make each character unique, hence the relationships between them unique also. And none of the characters are a sixtysomething year old American best-selling author. Each character is supposed to see events that happen to them through the light of their own emotions and experience.

So when you insist that GRRM sees LF exactly the way Sansa sees him, you are basically saying that GRRM is in love or Stockholm syndrome or whatever you want to call it with Littlefinger, and he is in total denial that Littlefinger is going to rape GRRM - I mean, Sansa - someday soon. This is patently ludicrous on the face of it. Love distorts views, not clarifies them; Stockholm Syndrome more so.

And the view that Baelish has multiple personality disorder and therefore a split personality, equally and simplistically divided between "good" Petyr and "bad" LF, doesn't seem realistic to me. It doesn't correspond with what we actually see happening. Baelish's 'loving' side led him to precipitate events that led to the death of his beloved Cat's family and Cat herself. There is no separate "good" Petyr. There is no "competing" between his so-called good and bad sides. He has never repented for one thing he has done. His love does not make him good. The Petyr that Sansa shows affection for and calls "Father" is the same man who shows his 'love' in private by mouth kisses and groping while at the same time demanding the affection and obedience due to a father - and thus demanding her acceptance of his criminal behavior. All this is ONE man. Sansa's tactic of dividing him in two people and telling herself she's with "good Petyr" her "father" most of the time is helpful in getting her through the day and through his latest scary plan or inappropriate caress without a revealing breakdown. But it isn't a realistic view of Baelish - we see that in her refusal to think about the fact that her "father" is escalating his sexual behavior toward her, is planning to murder Robin and make her his accomplice - facts that the most casual reader seeing things through her eyes can see perfectly. I think BookSansa's coping mechanism of dividing him in 'good' and 'bad' will eventually fail under LF pushing the boundaries too far - and when she finally REALLY sees him as he is, what she decides to do will either redeem or destroy her as a character.

Edited September 17, 2016 by screamin

[FemmyV]

Lately, the thing about LF that strikes me (I just finished re-watching Season 4) is that I can't recall any scene of him mourning Cat. There she was, the love of his life, and he may have helped broker the deal (Jamie's release) that made it safe for Tywin to have Robb & Cat murdered. And .... no reaction from Petyr that I can recall. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by FemmyV

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, FemmyV said:

Lately, the thing about LF that strikes me (I just finished re-watching Season 4) is that I can't recall any scene of him mourning Cat. There she was, the love of his life, and he may have helped broker the deal (Jamie's release) that made it safe for Tywin to have Robb & Cat murdered. And .... no reaction from Petyr that I can recall. 

Because at that point he didn't give a damn.  He was already making plans to acquire a new Catelyn sex doll, free of all the bad history the old Catelyn had acquired.

[Eyes High]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

"In similar relationships..." No, there is no similar relationship in ASOIAF. (...)

So when you insist that GRRM sees LF exactly the way Sansa sees him, you are basically saying that GRRM is in love or Stockholm syndrome or whatever you want to call it with Littlefinger, and he is in total denial that Littlefinger is going to rape GRRM - I mean, Sansa - someday soon. This is patently ludicrous on the face of it. Love distorts views, not clarifies them; Stockholm Syndrome more so.

And the view that Baelish has multiple personality disorder and therefore a split personality, equally and simplistically divided between "good" Petyr and "bad" LF, doesn't seem realistic to me.

If you have a problem with abusive relationships being depicted in a positive or even romantic light in the books, you should take it up with GRRM. The books are full of them, and GRRM quite likes a few of them. He loves Dany/Drogo despite it falling squarely into the trope of a rape victim falling in love with her rapist. He also has a big print of this picture, i.e. a depiction of the incident where Sandor was, you know, threatening to kill Sansa and holding a knife to her throat, hanging in his house.

It is fruitless to claim that LF/Sansa is some sort of special snowflake version of an abusive relationship in ASOIAF and apart from all other abusive relationships romanticized or viewed in a positive light by the victims in ASOIAF; it's not. It's not even the only relationship for Sansa which fits this mould, let alone other characters. Sansa's other primary relationship in ASOIAF is with Sandor. Sandor is a terrible man who treated her in abusive fashion (stalked her, obliquely threatened to rape her the one time, threatened to kill her, held a knife to her throat, came thisclose to raping her, etc. etc.), but what matters to her is not the abuse, his undoubted crimes towards her family as a Lannister stooge, or the atrocities he bragged to her about committing (killing children, etc. etc.), but that he protected her, that he saved her from people who wanted to do her harm, and that he cared about her. She gives the same reasons for caring about LF that she cares for Sandor: he saved her from dangerous people and she sees the good in him. She initially warms towards Sandor because he tells her the story of his burns; she warms towards LF because she sees his warm, funny and gentle side. Is she a deluded, naive fool in both instances whose impressions are completely wrongheaded and could not possibly be valid because of circumstances, or does she see something in them no one else does because LF and Sandor don't allow anyone else to see it?

As for the suggestion of Stockholm Syndrome, you have the causation reversed. Sansa isn't so blinded by good feelings towards LF (or Sandor) that she fails to see their bad side. Rather, seeing their good sides is what causes Sansa to have good feelings towards LF and Sandor. Otherwise, she would despise them the same way she despises the Lannisters and later Sweetrobin despite being trapped at close quarters with them and having every reason to force herself to focus on their good qualities. Unlike the clear contrast between her outwards behaviour towards Joffrey and Sweetrobin and her inner feelings, Sansa's behaviour towards LF is entirely in line with her internal monologue: LF is her knight in shining armour who saved her from the Lannisters and from Lysa, he is clever, brave and competent, and she views the two of them as a team. In the TWOW chapter, this is even clearer: Sansa is happier than she's been in a long time and "feels alive again," she's thinking constantly of LF, she laps up his praise of her cleverness and enjoys impressing him with her clever remarks and ideas, she is gratified that he makes her Winged Knights idea a reality, and she even eagerly looks forward to the possibility of sharing things with him that will make him laugh. Her inner contempt for Sweetrobin, however, remains firmly entrenched as of the TWOW Alayne chapter, no matter how often and to what extent she is forced to play the doting mother figure ("You are such a little fool").

GRRM's comments about LF are at odds with your apparent understanding of the character, which suggests that your understanding is indeed mistaken. As for your rejection as not "seeming realistic" the idea of LF alternating between feelings of caring and feeling of detachment towards Sansa, again, you also should take that up with GRRM, because that is precisely how he has characterized LF in interviews.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Eyes High

[Wouter]

17 hours ago, anamika said:

[1]because she wanted to marry handsome Willas Tyrell (As opposed to ugly Tyrion Lannister) and get out of KL. These are the choices of a naive girl who again puts physical appearances and nice words ahead of actions.

[2]These are the facts: Tyrion, Tyrells, Dontos and LF were all using Sansa as a pawn for their own advantage. Tyrion also protected Sansa from Joffrey, kept away from her because she was repulsed by him and offered to take Sansa to Casterly Rock - away from Joffrey's abuse. She refuses any and all overtures or offers of help from him despite these moments of kindness that he shows her. But the idea of being married to handsome Willas Tyrell pulls her towards the Tyrells who then frame Sansa for murder. Dontos sold her for gain. LF set up the whole situation (Telling Tywin about the Tyrell's marriage plot). I think I can safely say that of all these folks, Tyrion alone never set up Sansa to be harmed. He did not actively set out to trick Sansa. It was Sansa who lied to him by meeting secretly with Dontos who ended up fooling her.

[3]Once again, we come to the excuse of Sansa not registering or remembering things happening right in front of her.  This then proves my case that she is unfit to become any kind of player, considering her inability to register, remember or analyze things that happen right in front of her.

[4]LF has also saved her life. If he had not got her out of KL when she was framed for murder, she would be dead. If he had not stepped in, then Lysa would have killed her. LF has always treated her well.

[5]And who exactly knows that Baelish had her father murdered? As mentioned earlier, the idea that he got Joffrey to order Ned's death is an unverifiable suspicion. All everyone knows was that he acted with the Lannisters against the Starks in KL. Which the Hound is equally guilty of.

[6]Besides how can Sansa forgive the Hound for slaughtering Stark men including Jeyne's father? You find it hard to believe that people are arguing for Sansa not caring that LF killed her father but at the same time you are arguing for Sansa not being too bothered that her boyfriend killed Jeyne's father because he saved her life. Something that LF has also done. Several times. At the end of the day, there is no difference between the Hound and LF.

 

[1] That's the spin that Tyrion put on it, but Sansa has actually never seen Willas and she knows that he is crippled. Not exactly her dream husband (that would be someone like Rhaegar, the handsome prince on a white horse, or even a non-gay Loras). Sansa has to be talked into liking the idea, by the sweet words of Margaery and by her inner voice.

But the reality is, the Tyrells made her a proposal and sold her on it. Sansa could live with being married with Willas, and chances are her mother would actually see it as a good thing (given that there are limits in what could be arranged as a captive in KL) to have family ties to the Tyrells, making them more likely to show leniency for Sansa's sake. They did not drag her suddenly to the altar at swordpoint, without her opinion being asked. The Lannisters did exactly that, and Sansa realised well enough that the intention was to take Winterfell from the Starks and give it to Lannister scions. How's that for looking at actions, not at kind words?

One can even wonder if a person like Tywin would not have arranged an "accident" for Sansa, as soon as she had given birth to a heir and a spare. No need to keep an anti-Lannister mother around that may influence the children to look unkindly upon Casterly Rock and even upon their father.

Tyrion himself is also a fine one to talk, he didn't appreciate the thought of marrying Lollys (the supposed only alternative that Tywin planted in his head). And he did not really understand that Sansa would not only view his silence (until five minutes before the ceremony) as a hostile act, but that she would also act on that by giving him the icecold shoulder later. If he had only confided in her and asked her to accept it, like the Tyrells did, the reaction would have been different. As it was different, on the show.

[2] Book-Sansa could afford to reject Tyrion's overtures and had motive to do so: she had an escape plan and she knew the marriage to be a hostile act. In the show, she wasn't aware of a possibility to escape and Tyrion acted more like an ally and less like a jailor to her.

There is no indication that the Tyrells were insincere in their desire to marry Willas to Sansa. It was a good match for them, given that Willas was crippled and that Sansa's highly regarded (royal) bloodline would be useful to bolster their somewhat shaky credentials in that regard. They only dropped that after LF had made his move, through Dontos.

Tyrion did work together with Tywin and Cersei to set Sansa up: he was aware of the marriage without her consent (or that of her family), he was an active participant in it and he choose to do his family's bidding and spring the surprise upon Sansa. It's understandable that he was loyal to his family, but as this family was actively working against Sansa's interests (as Tywin says, the happiness of the girl is not his concern) he was setting out to trick Sansa.

Sansa did fool him by meeting with Dontos, and plotting her escape. But really, if she had told him he would simply have warned her guards and his family, leading to Dontos being tortured and Sansa probably getting locked up in her room, only allowed outside under close watch by multiple Lannister stooges. Tyrion may have offered to take her to Casterly Rock, but he never offered to let her go. That would have been again his family's interests and against his own standing in that family. I cannot realistically blame Tyrion for that, but I can certainly not blame Sansa for not betraying herself and Dontos to her enemies.

[3] In addition to what SeanC and screamin have written, I stress that Sansa had no way of knowing what "the tears in Jon's wine" are.

And while Sansa's tendency to ignore things she doesn't like is a weakness for someone who is supposed to make some kind of impact as a "player", I note that show-Arya made some stupid mistakes in Braavos (like wandering openly around the city in full daylight, without disguise) while being hunted by the waif. This didn't stop her from being a super-efficient assassin in the case of the Freys. Show and books aren't always consistent in this kind of thing.

Sansa may not need to a super player to have an impact: she seems to be Baelish' weakness, if she turns on him when he doesn't expect it he could go down before he realises she isn't in his pocket anymore. Sansa could potentially count on allies like Royce, or later on maybe even Tyrion or Arya.

[4] LF had put her in the position to be framed for murder in the first place. If someone shoots your boat out of the water and then picks you up out of the water, has he saved you? If he would have let the boat be there would be no problem. In the Vale, he is making her complicit in crimes and using this to manipulate her ("more blood on your hands", as Screamin also quoted).

[5] Varys and Tyrion know or suspect. Bran could simply see it through Treenet (tm). It's a detail that's not in the books for nothing.

[6] The Hound is a sworn Lannister sword. The Lannisters are at war with the Starks. In war, killing or otherwise neutralising the enemy is his job. Baelish, on the other hand, claims to have been her friend, even at that time in KL. Sure, he had to do his job for the crown (and Sansa does not hold that against him, either), but nothing required him to whisper in the ears of the king to get her father killed. Even Tywin and Cersei did very much not want that to happen, so it wasn't even a "following orders" thing. It was very much his own personal vendetta against her father. Which also made a peace deal impossible, leaving her stranded as a captive for years.

[anamika]

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

Again, no, she is aware that Tyrion is "kind", as she repeatedly puts it; that's why she, e.g., regards him more favourably than Lancel.  But she is not naive about his actions.  He tries to make her captivity more comfortable -- nothing more.  And Sansa is not interested in spending the rest of her life in Lannister captivity.

And hence she makes the same mistakes she did in book one. She trusts the words of people who have done nothing so far to help her and mistrusts the man who has helped her, just because he is a Lannister.

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

When her primary concern at that point is her own survival, sure.

So she thinks that the man who deliberately deceived her mother and was part of the group that brought down her family in KL is looking out for Sansa Stark's survival as opposed to the Vale Lords? So she was right not to trust Tyrion, despite him protecting her, but she is right to trust LF because he protects her?  And that if she knows about LF and Ned, she is going to immediately turn against LF? If her survival is her number one priority then why would she bother about the Ned/LF info? She already knows that LF betrayed her family.

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

Take it up with GRRM.  And yes, her tendency to play down things she can't do anything about is certainly something that has to be overcome for her to pass beyond a certain stage; that's drama/

Then she is a badly written character - one of the issues I have with her. I see no gradual step by step evolution in the books for her becoming any type of player.

And the Hound bursting on the scene, telling her about Ned/LF, Sansa suddenly connecting all the dots and becoming a master game player who takes down LF sounds like cheesy fanfiction. Maybe that's why GRRM is struggling with his last two books. To make this naive girl into a player of even average caliber will take a lot of work and page time and with just two books to go, I don't see how it's possible. However GRRM writes it, it's going to be jarring and badly written.

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

He is part of the government holding her prisoner in King's Landing.  That is rather harmful.

Did he set her up to be killed? Did he protect her from Joffrey's abuse? Who was more harmful to Sansa ultimately - Tyrion, Tyrells, Dontos or LF? Sansa disregarded Tyrion's actions (Because he was a Lannister) and trusted in Tyrell words because she dreamed of things like this:

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She pictured the two (Her and Willas) of them sitting together in a garden with puppies in their laps, or listening to a singer strum upon a lute while they floated down the Mander on a pleasure barge.

 

15 hours ago, SeanC said:

Also not true,  Sansa changes quite a lot.  But beyond that, the whole notion of Sansa as a camera (which is not infrequently brought up by critics) does not hold up.  Sansa is, in fact, learning to analyze things from all the observing she does; that doesn't mean she sees everything.  For instance, she has a flash of insight into the Tyrells' plans very early in ASOS, but, even if she hadn't talked herself out of her own instinct (talking herself out of her own gut reactions is a recurring problem beginning in AGOT, something she gradually gets better at as she develops more confidence and becomes less fixated on her early notions of how things should be), she would have had nowhere near enough information to carry it much further.

But more to the point, the whole notion of Sansa as primarily a camera falls apart because for the first three books she shows us very little that either (a) could not be shown through other POV characters or (b) has real relevance to characters other than her.  In the latter category would fall things like her interactions with the Hound, Dontos, the Tyrells, etc.; if Sansa was not a significant character, there would be no reason for us to see any of these things.

How does she change a lot  between book two and book five? What analysis of information does she do? Does she analyze her role in what happened to Ned, Arya and Jeyne? Does she analyze Lysa's confession? Does she analyze what LF has done to Jeyne?

At the end of book one, after Ned loses his head, she realizes that the Lannisters suck, her life sucks, she needs to use her courtesies to survive Joffrey's abuse and that it sucks to trust people. She then proceeds to constantly trust all the wrong people.  In her POVs she describes events happening in KL, how she would like to marry this guy or that guy, which guy was the most handsome, how much this guy sucks or that guy sucks, how the guards abuse her, tidbits about the Hound, how Margaery would have been a better sister than Arya etc. We see Tyrion from her POV - she basically thinks about him all the stuff she thinks of LF currently - that he's nice to her but he is still a Lannister, she's stuck with him boo hoo. The constant whining and lack of any growth is why her POVs are so tedious to read. Reading Dany in book one was such a refreshing change on the other hand, where she is in worse circumstances, in a forced marriage and raped daily, and then proceeds to do something about it.

As for the Tyrells, GRRM uses her to set them up as this crafty family who are all about playing the game. We see clever Lady Olenna/Margaery from her POV and they come across as these good guys and again through her we see them for what they really are. Tyrion's POV there would not have helped as he would have seen through their schemes.  I don't recall any flashes of insight she has of the Tyrells, but whatever those were, they were soon overcome by thoughts of Willas and beautiful, brave Margaery.

As for your last point, I would not be surprised that Sansa was a favorite POV for GRRM to write in KL because of her tendency to describe every thing in detail. Unlike Tyrion and the rest of the Lannisters, she's new to KL and the people there. She gives us a viewpoint into the place. Take for example her description of Joffrey's name day tourney in ACoK where she goes into detail about how the tournament is set up, descriptions of the people in attendance, ladies at the tourney etc. There's a difference between how Tyrion views things and Sansa's naive, but descriptive POV. And it's absurd to state that there cannot be more than one POV at a particular location. Tyrion was busy doing things in ACoK, Sansa was giving us an intro to the Tyrells. Sansa gave us another view into Tyrion.

Sure, she has her own storyline going with the LF, Hound, Dontos, Tyrells etc. We have GRRM's version of the 'romantic' Beauty and Beast story in KL. But she is the most stagnant character in the series, hardly grows and is more or less used as a window into characters like LF.

5 hours ago, Wouter said:

 In addition to what SeanC and screamin have written, I stress that Sansa had no way of knowing what "the tears in Jon's wine" are.

So she just completely ignores Lysa's entire confession because she was stumped by what the 'tears in Jon's wine' meant. Yes, she will go on to be an awesome player of the game, I can just see.

5 hours ago, Wouter said:

[6] The Hound is a sworn Lannister sword. The Lannisters are at war with the Starks. In war, killing or otherwise neutralising the enemy is his job. Baelish, on the other hand, claims to have been her friend, even at that time in KL. Sure, he had to do his job for the crown (and Sansa does not hold that against him, either), but nothing required him to whisper in the ears of the king to get her father killed. Even Tywin and Cersei did very much not want that to happen, so it wasn't even a "following orders" thing. It was very much his own personal vendetta against her father. Which also made a peace deal impossible, leaving her stranded as a captive for years.

Baelish was also working for the Lannisters like the Hound. And for the hundredth time, the suspicion that LF whispered into Joffrey's ears to get her father killed is only that - a suspicion. It's not fact. If it's true, that fact died with Joffrey. The only thing LF is guilty of is siding with the Lannisters against the Starks - which the Hound is also guilty of. The Hound killed Jeyne's father!

The only difference you keep bringing up is that LF claims that he is Sansa's friend as opposed to the Hound who keeps verbally abusing her every chance he gets. Why should this be a negative against LF? After all LF IS Sansa's friend is he not? Which is why she is siding with him against the Vale Lords.

Edited September 18, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, anamika said:

And hence she makes the same mistakes she did in book one. She trusts the words of people who have done nothing so far to help her and mistrusts the man who has helped her, just because he is a Lannister.

That's not making the same mistake.  Tyrion was not offering the help she actually wants and needs; it is not naive to conclude that whatever risk is necessary to get away from KL, if she considers her life there intolerable, which she does (in the chapter before her escape, she thinks that, one way or another, her torments will be over soon).  She's not interested in collaborating with the Lannisters.

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Did he set her up to be killed? Did he protect her from Joffrey's abuse? Who was more harmful to Sansa ultimately - Tyrion, the Tyrells, Dontos or LF?

He warded off Joffrey for a time.  He was also still keeping her prisoner in KL, and working to defeat her family, and trying to spring Jaime without further prisoner negotiations, which would have (and did) have terrible effects on her status in King's Landing.  None of that was done with Sansa's best interests in mind.  That other people also negatively impacted Sansa doesn't negate that Tyrion is not her friend, he is an enemy who wants to make her captivity comfortable.

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How does she change a lot  between book two and book five? 

She becomes progressively more disillusioned and more capable, in short, alongside her maturation into puberty which impacts her personality in other ways.  We see her, e.g., identify the fatal flaw in the Lannister-Tyrell wedding arrangement very early in ASOS, which progresses to her figuring out Littlefinger's plan with Corbray in AFFC (which is something none of the far more experienced Lords Declarant manage, as far as we know).  She, a girl with no history of physical exertion, wills herself to be brave enough to scale down a cliff face.  She successfully deceives the entire court about her escape, and conducts numerous meetings with Dontos at night.  She uses her etiquette to save others on multiple occasions.  And so on.

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As for your last point, I would not be surprised that Sansa was a favorite POV for GRRM to write in KL because of her tendency to describe every thing in detail. Unlike Tyrion and the rest of the Lannisters, she's new to KL and the people there. She gives us the viewpoint into the place. Take for example her description of Joffrey's name day tourney in ACoK where she goes into detail about how the tournament is set up, descriptions of the people in attendance, ladies at the tourney etc. There's a difference between how Tyrion views things and Sansa's naive, but descriptive POV.

Tyrion's POV is plenty descriptive (and more to the point, GRRM, as author, can make Tyrion describe things as much as he wants to).  Sansa's POVs do not contain all that much exposition unrelated to Sansa's own story, certainly not more than any other character.  The bulk of Sansa's interactions, likewise, are with her own dedicated supporting characters.

People have claimed before that Sansa's chapters in recent books are just a camera on Littlefinger, but this doesn't hold up.  Even setting aside the contents, which are focused on Sansa's own psychology for the most part, why does Littlefinger need a camera on him?  Sure, he's important to the overarching story of ASOIAF, but so is Varys, and GRRM never felt the need to have a POV following Varys around fulltime.  Littlefinger appears in Sansa's POVs because he's the mentor/antagonist of Sansa's story, and his character has been shaped to serve in that role.

Edited September 18, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That's not making the same mistake.  Tyrion was not offering the help she actually wants and needs; it is not naive to conclude that whatever risk is necessary to get away from KL, if she considers her life there intolerable, which she does (in the chapter before her escape, she thinks that, one way or another, her torments will be over soon).  She's not interested in collaborating with the Lannisters.

He warded off Joffrey for a time.  He was also still keeping her prisoner in KL, and working to defeat her family, and trying to spring Jaime without further prisoner negotiations, which would have (and did) have terrible effects on her status in King's Landing.  None of that was done with Sansa's best interests in mind.  That other people also negatively impacted Sansa doesn't negate that Tyrion is not her friend, he is an enemy who wants to make her captivity comfortable.

But Tyrion not only offered her safety in Casterly Rock, he also actively helped her while she was in KL. He protected her from Joffrey. What did the Tyrells do to help her? Why did she trust the Tyrells to do right by her? Did they show by any actions whatsoever that they were trustworthy? It's the same thing she did in book one, trusting the pretty words of the Lannisters and dreaming of being Queen.

I get that she is not interested in collaborating with the Lannisters because she wants to escape, but then why is she currently collaborating with LF, who sided with the Lannisters in KL,  when she could trust the Vale Lords.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

She becomes progressively more disillusioned and more capable, in short, alongside her maturation into puberty which impacts her personality in other ways.  We see her, e.g., identify the fatal flaw in the Lannister-Tyrell wedding arrangement very early in ASOS, which progresses to her figuring out Littlefinger's plan with Corbray in AFFC (which is something none of the far more experienced Lords Declarant manage, as far as we know).  She, a girl with no history of physical exertion, wills herself to be brave enough to scale down a cliff face.  She successfully deceives the entire court about her escape, and conducts numerous meetings with Dontos at night.  She uses her etiquette to save others on multiple occasions.  And so on.

She starts out book two being disillusioned. Then she starts dreaming of floating down the river with puppies and Willas. Then she gets disillusioned again. Then she trusts Dontos. The she gets disillusioned again. I don't see this as growth - so much as her repeating the same mistakes again and again and then having to get disillusioned. As for the examples, I don't recall the first one - if you could give me the quote from the book that would be great. As for figuring out Corbray in AFfC, which often gets paraded out as an example of Sansa's player credentials - she gets a suspicion, confronts LF about it and gets it confirmed. We don't have her figuring out how exactly she came to that conclusion. All in all, we have two? instances of Sansa figuring out something over 5 books - I am not impressed. Characters like Jon and Dany are already playing more complicated games against adults - not sure what Sansa is going to contribute.

She successfully deceives the entire court about her escape? lol! Dontos tells her what to do and how to do it. She follows his orders. She is very good at following orders - I will give her that. As for using her courtesy, she has been doing that right from book one. Don't see that as any sort of particular growth. If these examples are supposed to show that she is becoming a player, they fail to convince me.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Tyrion's POV is plenty descriptive (and more to the point, GRRM, as author, can make Tyrion describe things as much as he wants to).  Sansa's POVs do not contain all that much exposition unrelated to Sansa's own story, certainly not more than any other character.  The bulk of Sansa's interactions, likewise, are with her own dedicated supporting characters.

People have claimed before that Sansa's chapters in recent books are just a camera on Littlefinger, but this doesn't hold up.  Even setting aside the contents, which are focused on Sansa's own psychology for the most part, why does Littlefinger need a camera on him?  Sure, he's important to the overarching story of ASOIAF, but so is Varys, and GRRM never felt the need to have a POV following Varys around fulltime.  Littlefinger appears in Sansa's POVs because he's the mentor/antagonist of Sansa's story, and his character has been shaped to serve in that role.

 

But the naive way Sansa describes things are different to the perceptive way Tyrion ( Who tends to connect the dots) sees things. The way a newcomer to KL sees things are going to be different to the way Tyrion sees things. Why would Tyrion be so descriptive of things in KL - that would be bad writing. Would Tyrion see the Tyrells the same way that Sansa does? We get another POV into Tyrion himself, describing him and his actions. Again, it's absurd to state that just because we have Tyrion in KL, no other different POV is necessary into the place or into other characters. Especially since Tyrion and Sansa are such different characters.

Why does LF need a camera on him? Because he is plotting against various people, including the North, and if he just suddenly makes an appearance at the end of it all, that would be dumb. We need to have sort of an idea of what he is up to in the Vale but at the same time LF himself should be a mystery - hence we get idiot Sansa who sees and hears all these things, but is unable to put 2 and 2 together. LF also explains his plans to the readers by explaining them to Sansa.

For example we know that SR is getting poisoned from the Maester - Sansa scene. Later we get LF explaining his plans to Sansa. As readers, we can figure out what is happening to SR. But Sansa herself fails to do so.

Varys is different because he is doing his own thing with Aegon and the Targaryens etc. His story is not as connected to the Starks as LF.  No one is denying that Sansa and LF are closely intertwined characters. But at this point, with the current text I can as well say that Sansa is serving LF's story, considering that he is a primary human antagonist of the Starks. Which is why I believe that her story will end with his. Or, GRRM may end up being kind to her and send her off with the Hound since he seems to be into the Beauty and Beast story as well.

Edited September 18, 2016 by anamika

[Advance35]

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But the reality is, the Tyrells made her a proposal and sold her on it. Sansa could live with being married with Willas, and chances are her mother would actually see it as a good thing (given that there are limits in what could be arranged as a captive in KL) to have family ties to the Tyrells, making them more likely to show leniency for Sansa's sake. They did not drag her suddenly to the altar at swordpoint, without her opinion being asked. The Lannisters did exactly that, and Sansa realised well enough that the intention was to take Winterfell from the Starks and give it to Lannister scions. How's that for looking at actions, not at kind words?

I loved this portion of the book and the show because I liked that Sansa was able (even in a peripheral sort of way) recognize the political currents in the Court and how they were likely to evolve, with the Lannisters and the Tyrells at war, and that the streets of Kings Landing would run red with blood.   She didn't even need Lord Baelish to tell her that.   And though she loved the idea that there might be some part of the world that resembled the stories she was led to believe I always felt what pushed her to being in league with the Tyrells was that they were the only game in town other than House Lannister.   As long as it wasn't Houses Lannister, Frey, Greyjoy or Bolton, I think any House would have been acceptable to her.

I also think she was in awe of them.  They came to town, knew what was going on and were able to stand toe to toe with House Lannister, a group that had her loved (though idiotic family) on the ropes.   She recognizes that the Tyrells were able to get the masses to love them even though their House had been working against everyone in Kings Landing trying to starve them.

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One can even wonder if a person like Tywin would not have arranged an "accident" for Sansa, as soon as she had given birth to a heir and a spare. No need to keep an anti-Lannister mother around that may influence the children to look unkindly upon Casterly Rock and even upon their father.

I know this was the longterm Lannister's plan in the book.  It's what Robb and Catelyn figured when they heard of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage.   I so wish we had seen their reaction to the news in the show.

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 I note that show-Arya made some stupid mistakes in Braavos (like wandering openly around the city in full daylight, without disguise) while being hunted by the waif. This didn't stop her from being a super-efficient assassin in the case of the Freys. Show and books aren't always consistent in this kind of thing.

I don't know if the same rules can be applied to Arya based on the simple fact that her "story" is more fantasy.   Being able to Mission-Impossible faces (I still don't get how that works) makes her as grounded in realism as a Unicorn.   She's like Dany and her dragons.   I feel that Sansa has to work within more human limitations.  But I'm also convinced this is what has made her one of the show's most popular and discussed characters.

As the season's wear on more and more "Players" or would be ones, are being removed from the board Catelyn, Robb, Tywin, Roose, Joffrey, Oberyn, Mace, Loras, Margaery, The High Sparrow.   The political reversals of fortune are what has put this franchise on the map so I think we'll see that up to the very end of the story.    And Sansa has the benefit of having spent years immersed in that part of the saga.   I just can't see the Hound figuring into things for Sansa, maybe acknowledgment of past acquaintance but in both formats, I feel like their time as pivotal figures in the other's life has passed.

I also think Robyn Arryn has been casted and kept alive in both mediums for a reason, whether he is to serve as an event horizon for Sansa or something more, I don't know.

[Wouter]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

Baelish was also working for the Lannisters like the Hound. And for the hundredth time, the suspicion that LF whispered into Joffrey's ears to get her father killed is only that - a suspicion. It's not fact. If it's true, that fact died with Joffrey. The only thing LF is guilty of is siding with the Lannisters against the Starks - which the Hound is also guilty of. The Hound killed Jeyne's father!

The only difference you keep bringing up is that LF claims that he is Sansa's friend as opposed to the Hound who keeps verbally abusing her every chance he gets. Why should this be a negative against LF? After all LF IS Sansa's friend is he not? Which is why she is siding with him against the Vale Lords.

 

Baelish was not working for the Lannister like the Hound. He was working for the crown, but so was Renly. He is a nobleman from the Vale, which chose to stay neutral. He could have decided to join one of the rebellious factions. The Hound, on the other hand, is actually part of the Lannister army, directly in the pay of the Lannisters and sworn to Joffrey personally. That's quite a difference.

We're not conducting a trial here; are you seriously saying you don't believe that Baelish had Ned murdered? I believe that every hint in the books on this issue point to him being the ultimate murderer - even if you would state your opinion for a 101st time. And it didn't die with Joffrey, Varys to Tyrion in ACOK: "Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"

And I'm also going to repeat myself: Bran can see anything that the author wants him to see. And he seems able to communicate with his siblings, through dreams.

LF is not Sansa's friend. He is one of the major reasons of the fall of the Starks, of the deads of her mother and father, of the fall of Winterfell. He framed her for murder in KL, and implicated her in his doings with Marillion. And his plans for her will not end well for her, ultimately. Unless she gets the drop on him, which I believe she will, with or without help.

Edited September 18, 2016 by Wouter

[SeanC]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

But Tyrion not only offered her safety in Casterly Rock, he also actively helped her while she was in KL. He protected her from Joffrey. What did the Tyrells do to help her? Why did she trust the Tyrells to do right by her? Did they show by any actions whatsoever that they were trustworthy? It's the same thing she did in book one, trusting the pretty words of the Lannisters and dreaming of being Queen.

Sansa doesn't consider Casterly Rock "safety".  It's just another place full of Lannisters, where she's subject to the will of the Lannisters.

This is not a case of being naive.  It's a case where your values don't line up with the character's.  Sansa wants to escape, and is willing to take risks to achieve the only thing she considers worthwhile.  Saying she's naive for not wanting to help decorate the walls of her prison cell is like saying Bran is dumb for traveling north of the Wall instead of going to White Harbor; the objectives behind those choices are fundamentally different.

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I get that she is not interested in collaborating with the Lannisters because she wants to escape, but then why is she currently collaborating with LF, who sided with the Lannisters in KL,  when she could trust the Vale Lords.

Unlike in KL, she feels she has nowhere to escape to (as she notes).  The death of Dontos, who she had trusted, was also probably a big factor in this.

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She starts out book two being disillusioned. Then she starts dreaming of floating down the river with puppies and Willas. Then she gets disillusioned again. Then she trusts Dontos. The she gets disillusioned again. I don't see this as growth - so much as her repeating the same mistakes again and again and then having to get disillusioned. 

Each of those cases is different, and its effect is different.  Your whole worldview doesn't change in one instant, and there's a huge difference between, e.g., Sansa's interactions with Cersei in the first book, and the guarded way she approaches the Tyrells in the third (which they overcome, because they're experienced and know how to play on her emotional trauma by offering the prospect of things she hasn't had since Ned died).

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She successfully deceives the entire court about her escape? lol! Dontos tells her what to do and how to do it. 

The fact that she didn't come up with the main plan doesn't mean she didn't have to contribute to its execution.  Keeping up her meetings with Dontos so that nobody becomes suspicious requires skill, as is repeatedly shown in her interactions with Tyrion (beginning in ACOK, where she has to come up with a plausible reason why she'd turn down Tyrion's offer of shelter in the Tower of the Hand, which Tyrion buys completely).

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Varys is different because he is doing his own thing with Aegon and the Targaryens etc. His story is not as connected to the Starks as LF.

No, but his story is very much connected to Dany and Tyrion, two of the three top-tier characters.  So why no camera?

Edited September 18, 2016 by SeanC

[roguetamlin]

I'm stupidly excited that Gendry is (probably) coming back, but I'm also really really hoping his role isn't like Osha and Rickon's or just as a adjunct to Arya's story. He is on the show the last Barratheon and since we've seen Ramsey become a Bolton and Jon Snow begin a similar path to becoming a Stark/Targaryan and Gendry now knows who he is, I would be annoyed if his bastardy was still an issue. There's also the element that in the Wars of the Roses that has been an inspiration for the GOT story, in the end it was Henry Tudor who won with a claim based on illegitimate blood lines and the force of arms. He could be a potential (and not closely related) consort for Dany or the fulfillment of the Stark/Barratheon marriage from the beginning. So if he shows up just to be killed off or for a moment where Arya is reminded that she is still a Lady (which I think would be bs anyways given the examples of Nymeria and various ass kicking Targaryans) and then vanishes again, well, that would suck.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, roguetamlin said:

I'm stupidly excited that Gendry is (probably) coming back, but I'm also really really hoping his role isn't like Osha and Rickon's or just as a adjunct to Arya's story. He is on the show the last Barratheon and since we've seen Ramsey become a Bolton and Jon Snow begin a similar path to becoming a Stark/Targaryan and Gendry now knows who he is, I would be annoyed if his bastardy was still an issue. There's also the element that in the Wars of the Roses that has been an inspiration for the GOT story, in the end it was Henry Tudor who won with a claim based on illegitimate blood lines and the force of arms. He could be a potential (and not closely related) consort for Dany or the fulfillment of the Stark/Barratheon marriage from the beginning. So if he shows up just to be killed off or for a moment where Arya is reminded that she is still a Lady (which I think would be bs anyways given the examples of Nymeria and various ass kicking Targaryans) and then vanishes again, well, that would suck.

I don't really see the comparison to Henry Tudor.  The Beauforts were legitimized and ennobled aristocrats, and essentially inherited the Lancastrian faction after their royal family died out.  There's no real Baratheon faction anymore,  almost nobody even knows Gendry is a bastard of Robert, and he is a commoner (I doubt he's even literate).  Even in the show, where the nobles somewhat implausibly just discarded all prejudices to declare Jon king (in the books, one imagines he will be legitimized and named heir via Robb's will), they did so in favour of noble-raised bastard who was honoured by his father and (unusually) raised amongst his trueborn children.

I doubt Gendry is being brought back solely to die, though.  His friendship (or potential pairing, if you prefer it that way) with Arya was an important part of her early story, and probably he will continue in that role.

Edited September 18, 2016 by SeanC

[Advance35]

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And his plans for her will not end well for her, ultimately. Unless she gets the drop on him, which I believe she will, with or without help.

I find the Starks especially uninteresting, with the exception of Sansa (and Jon now that she's joined him up North) however I do worry LF and Sansa won't make it out of the season.   ST talking about how She and Maisie wanted to get tattoos before their killed off?!?!?!  But then again ST said in Season 5 (at the end of Mother's Mercy) she didn't see anyplace for Sansa's story to go and wouldn't be surprised if Sansa didn't survive the fall so it really is hard to tell with her.

[Minneapple]

Sophie's quote about the tattoos was this:

Turner laughed, "We don't know if we're going to make it so Maisie and I were like, 'Let's get these ones before anyone kills us!'"

I don't think that's a hint that they're going to be killed off. In fact her quote sort of implies that they won't be killed off -- at least this season. Or at least in the scripts they've read so far anyway. But then remember that Sophie is a troll and loves to rile up the fans. So. I suppose just take everything she says with a grain of salt.

Notably Sophie's hair is still blond. It will be like a giant "red" THEY'VE STARTED SHOOTING! flag when she dyes it again.