Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

So Benioff and Weiss, give us the break down on the strengths and weaknesses of the current leaders of Westeros:

Quote

Dany has a boundless confidence in herself and her mission in this world. Her sense of destiny makes her a compelling, charismatic leader, a messianic figure for multitudes. She has arguably the cleverest advisor on the planet in Tyrion Lannister. She has three dragons, an army of Unsullied, and a great Dothraki horde.

What could possibly go wrong?

Something tells me that Dany's season 7 story will be about ALL the things that will go wrong for her!

Quote

Cersei will do anything to win. In the past, the only factor limiting her ruthlessness was her love for her children. Now that her children are gone, nothing restrains her. As she herself said, “love is weakness.” A loveless Cersei is a fearsome thing

Not sure how Cersei can become more fearsome but I am guessing that her ruthlessness will be Jaime's tipping point.

Quote

Jon’s honorable nature has proven a disadvantage in some regards: a man who plays by the rules will have a harder time defeating men and women who don’t. But Jon’s nature also provides one of his great strengths: his ability to win others to his cause. Men who respected his courage and honesty elected him Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. The Free Folk, who had never before aligned themselves with kneelers, chose to fight for Jon Snow because they believed in him. The lords of the north named him King in the North because they realized he was their last, best chance to survive the wars to come.

The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies. As E.O. Wilson wrote, “Within a group, selfish individuals always win. But in contests between groups, groups of altruists always beat groups of selfish individuals.” So Jon Snow better hope this is a contest between groups.

 Honorable Jon Vs Dishonorable folks in season 7! With LF in WF, it's not surprising that the game is now being played in the North.

Quote

Night King - Strength: He can raise the dead and have them do his bidding. Weakness: He’ll never be as funny as The Ice King.

  Will the lack of humor be the Night King's disadvantage next season?

http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-emmys-interview-1201803698/

[Jazzy24]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Benioff and Weiss, give us the break down on the strengths and weaknesses of the current leaders of Westeros:

Something tells me that Dany's season 7 story will be about ALL the things that will go wrong for her!

Not sure how Cersei can become more fearsome but I am guessing that her ruthlessness will be Jaime's tipping point.

 Honorable Jon Vs Dishonorable folks in season 7! With LF in WF, it's not surprising that the game is now being played in the North.

  Will the lack of humor be the Night King's disadvantage next season?

http://deadline.com/2016/08/game-of-thrones-david-benioff-d-b-weiss-emmys-interview-1201803698/

I hate that Jon is getting sucked into the game of thrones full time. This also reinforces that D&D does not care about the Others, their main focus is the game of throne. 

The stupid politics have dominated this show every season. It sucks that an ice zombie apocalypse is about to take over the world and now they have like one of the only characters who know and care(Jon Snow)be engrossed in disgusting politics with psychopaths. 

[benteen]

Quote

I hate that Jon is getting sucked into the game of thrones full time. This also reinforces that D&D does not care about the Others, their main focus is the game of throne. 

It's not like GRRM has been in any hurry to get to the Others.  At least the White Walkers have done something significant the past three seasons or so on the show.

I expect this season will be the end of the game of thrones and will lead to the final season being the battle against the White Walkers.

Jon's an honorable man but Book Jon realized that sometimes you had to bend the rules in order to get something accomplished.

[shortpplfedup]

I assume the 'Warrior' they're casting for is Marwyn the Mage. It's either 'him, or a completely unknown character.

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

It's not like GRRM has been in any hurry to get to the Others.  At least the White Walkers have done something significant the past three seasons or so on the show.

I expect this season will be the end of the game of thrones and will lead to the final season being the battle against the White Walkers.

Jon's an honorable man but Book Jon realized that sometimes you had to bend the rules in order to get something accomplished.

I agree that GRRM is taking his time too to get to the Others but he have said a lot of times that the games of thrones is not important it's the Others and that war. So why pull Jon into that bullcrap. Now they're going to pimp Littlefinger and Sansa making Jon stupid to make those characters interesting and keep the unnecessary drama going. 

The show is focused on the stupid game, it's excessive and getting redundant. 

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I hate that Jon is getting sucked into the game of thrones full time. This also reinforces that D&D does not care about the Others, their main focus is the game of throne. 

The stupid politics have dominated this show every season. It sucks that an ice zombie apocalypse is about to take over the world and now they have like one of the only characters who know and care(Jon Snow)be engrossed in disgusting politics with psychopaths. 

I agree, but at the same time, they're probably stretching the whole thing by throwing Jon into this because they want season 8 to be about the WW and the war for the dawn. While everyone is being petty and squabbling over who should rule, the WW have that already clearly defined, they're just waiting for that moment, and the North is ripe for the taking.

Of course, that cockroach Littlefinger had to make his way to the North and try to destroy whatever Jon is trying to build because he absolutely needs to sit on the Iron Throne. 

What's really bothering me is who will stand with LF aside from possibly Sansa? The North has pledged itself to Jon and House Stark, they are looking to survive, when the WWs come, they have to go through them first to be able to reach anywhere else. 

I just have this dread that they are going to twist the North into this shapeless pretzel and divide into who is loyal to Jon, who will be loyal to Sansa, and then the others who don't know where to fall. 

When all is said and done in the North, I hope Jon takes LF's head. 

Or maybe disguised Arya will be in Winterfell and will get rid of Jon's enemies one by one, a one person Northern Conspiracy. 

Or Jon could send LF north of the wall. If anyone could create discord among the WWs and have them wage war against each other, it's him. It's not like he's not good at it. (but this is a joke, because that would never happen)

Book!Jon playing the game of thrones, I could see. Show!Jon? Not so much.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Jazzy24 said:

I agree that GRRM is taking his time too to get to the Others but he have said a lot of times that the games of thrones is not important it's the Others and that war. So why pull Jon into that bullcrap. Now they're going to pimp Littlefinger and Sansa making Jon stupid to make those characters interesting and keep the unnecessary drama going. 

The show is focused on the stupid game, it's excessive and getting redundant. 

I think the reason for pulling Jon into it is that otherwise there are no obstacles to Jon dealing with the Others, and the writers (and probably GRRM, who knows) need some obstacles to give Dany time to make her way north. Dany also needs to sustain some pretty serious losses in Season 7 to level the playing field somewhat (I'm guessing Euron and Cersei will take a fat bite out of her forces). I think it's a Meereenese Knot-type problem: everyone has to wind up in the same place at the same time.

It seemed to me in Season 6 that the writers were setting up Sansa as the resentful deceiver and Jon as the sweetly trusting naif. I expect that will continue in Season 7.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, shortpplfedup said:

I assume the 'Warrior' they're casting for is Marwyn the Mage. It's either 'him, or a completely unknown character.

That description doesn't sound anything like Marwyn, nor do I see why they'd label a casting for him as "Warrior".

5 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

I agree that GRRM is taking his time too to get to the Others but he have said a lot of times that the games of thrones is not important it's the Others and that war. So why pull Jon into that bullcrap.

I don't see how you think Jon could end up becoming king in the books without become involved in the game.  And GRRM is stating that the war against the Others is ultimately more important if looked at objectively, not that human politics aren't a central part of the story.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Dany also needs to sustain some pretty serious losses in Season 7 to level the playing field somewhat (I'm guessing Euron and Cersei will take a fat bite out of her forces).

It's weird how little Season 6 did to set up Euron, if he's going to be as big a problem for Dany as narrative logic suggests he needs to be at this point.

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

That description doesn't sound anything like Marwyn, nor do I see why they'd label a casting for him as "Warrior".

I don't see how you think Jon could end up becoming king in the books without become involved in the game.  And GRRM is stating that the war against the Others is ultimately more important if looked at objectively, not that human politics aren't a central part of the story.

I really don't think that Jon is going to become king in the books at all. Never did. I believe this KITN story is something the show made up(which I hope they did)Jon has no business becoming king. 

I have never wanted not will I ever want Jon to become king of anything.  

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

I really don't think that Jon is going to become king in the books at all. Never did. I believe this KITN story is something the show made up(which I hope they did)Jon has no business becoming king. 

I don't agree.  Indeed, I think a lot of the issues people had with the show's KITN plot reflect that the show is doing the books' "Robb's will" plot without Robb's will.

[Jazzy24]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't agree.  Indeed, I think a lot of the issues people had with the show's KITN plot reflect that the show is doing the books' "Robb's will" plot without Robb's will.

Jon knowing that his siblings are alive would never take their birthright, he constantly fights Stannis' attempt to sit him in Winterfell. 

[SeanC]

Just now, Jazzy24 said:

Jon knowing that his siblings are alive would never take their birthright, he constantly fights Stannis' attempt to sit him in Winterfell. 

He doesn't know that any of them are alive other than Sansa, and Robb's will (presumably) disinherits her.

[Jazzy24]

47 minutes ago, SeanC said:

He doesn't know that any of them are alive other than Sansa, and Robb's will (presumably) disinherits her.

That doesn't mean that he will still follow his will. 

Hes not going to take the North with Sansa or any of his siblings alive to claim it. This part of Jon's story is done, so why make it into something it's not? 

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Jazzy24 said:

That doesn't mean that he will still follow his will. 

Hes not going to take the North with Sansa or any of his siblings alive to claim it. 

Why would Jon not follow Robb's will if he doesn't know Bran, Rickon and Arya are alive?  He needs to unite the North to fight the Others, and Robb naming him heir is a significant difference from Stannis trying to bribe him to leave the Night's Watch -- particularly after the Night's Watch murder him and release him from his vows.

[YaddaYadda]

Does Robb's will matter if the North knows that Rickon is alive and that there's something out there trying to find him to bring him back? 

Maybe that's where things hit a snag in the books. Robb's will naming Jon his heir and people rallying to him, and those who want to put a legitimate Stark on the throne. The Sansa plot (minus LF) in the show would be played out with Rickon instead even if he's just a child. When Manderly is in Winterfell, he has already sent Davos to look for Rickon, his liege lord. 

Seems like the two plots might end up colliding. Jon wouldn't usurp Rickon because that's not who he is. He might be regent until Rickon comes of age and then step aside for his brother. Even as Lyanna's son, Ned's children are still the heirs to Winterfell, and the North. 

Maege Mormont and I don't remember which Glover went looking for Howland Reed who so happens to be the only person alive who knows Jon's parentage, so I'm assuming the big reveal will happen in book 6 whenever that comes out. 

[Blue1815195]

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 Dany also needs to sustain some pretty serious losses in Season 7 to level the playing field somewhat (I'm guessing Euron and Cersei will take a fat bite out of her forces).

I actually think the Sand Snakes might betray Daenerys once she's got them close to Cersei. The one things the show has shown us is that the Sand Snakes WILL betray you, you just don't know when or how.

[YaddaYadda]

I've kind of been wondering about the correspondence that took place between Rhaegar and Maester Aemon because those two were rather close, and how much Maester Aemon knew about what his nephew was up to, and Lyanna (without necessarily knowing who Jon is, or putting 2 and 2 together later) and if said correspondence would have been kept at Castle Black, sent to the Citadel to be kept there, or just destroyed. I don't know that anything to do with Maester Aemon will be brought up anymore on the show since he died, but the books?

It just seems like the truth will need to come from more than Howland Reed who doesn't seem to be the most respected lord out there, and Bran who has visions. 

On 8/19/2016 at 11:36 PM, Blue1815195 said:

I actually think the Sand Snakes might betray Daenerys once she's got them close to Cersei. The one things the show has shown us is that the Sand Snakes WILL betray you, you just don't know when or how.

I'm hoping they drown in the opening episode and we never see them again. I could see them going rogue and trying to kill Cersei or the Mountain if they find out he's "alive". I hope we don't deal with anything Dorne and that plot is done and over with forever. I can't even bring myself to read about the Dorne parts in the books anymore. They were never my favorites to begin with, the show just made me hate everything to do with them.

Edited August 22, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[benteen]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 9:39 AM, Jazzy24 said:

I agree that GRRM is taking his time too to get to the Others but he have said a lot of times that the games of thrones is not important it's the Others and that war. So why pull Jon into that bullcrap. Now they're going to pimp Littlefinger and Sansa making Jon stupid to make those characters interesting and keep the unnecessary drama going. 

The show is focused on the stupid game, it's excessive and getting redundant. 

But we've still seen little of The White Walkers (the Others) in the series after five books have been complete.  I agree, Jon's important task is defending against the Walkers and I think we'll get that in Season 8.  I see Season 7 as the endgame for the War of Five Kings (or Three Queens at this point).  It will either end in victory or with everyone realizing how much time they are wasting with it when there's a real threat beyond the Wall.

I don't see who would stand with Sansa and LF either.  Everyone has thrown in with Jon...what could Sansa and LF have to offer?

[BlackberryJam]

On 8/18/2016 at 9:58 PM, Jazzy24 said:

I hate that Jon is getting sucked into the game of thrones full time. This also reinforces that D&D does not care about the Others, their main focus is the game of throne. 

The stupid politics have dominated this show every season. It sucks that an ice zombie apocalypse is about to take over the world and now they have like one of the only characters who know and care(Jon Snow)be engrossed in disgusting politics with psychopaths. 

Jon was always getting sucked into the game because he has the best claim to the Throne. Jon's story, for me, has always been about the politics moving around him until his true identity is revealed, making all those maneuverings senseless. You don't make him the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark in order for him NOT to have a claim to the Throne. Otherwise, he could just be the son of Ned and a tavern wench. 

[BlackberryJam]

22 minutes ago, doram said:

I always figured Jon's heritage would play more into the spiritual/prophetic/apocalyptic side of things than the political. 

Why? I mean, GRRM has spent five books working the Game of Thrones aspect of the show, including a character with a secret claim to the Throne, of course he's going to be involved in the game, whether he likes it or not. I don't know, I guess I've always seen GRRM as much more into the Game than the Others, so of course Jon would be about the Game too. He's far too perfectly positioned.

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I always figured Jon's heritage would play more into the spiritual/prophetic/apocalyptic side of things than the political. 

That's what I hope to. 

I hope GRRM doesn't write Jon as King. I'm more than happy with him fighting the Others and than dying at the end. 

Being king/queen is not a good thing in the world of ASOIAF, Jon does not deserve that hell. 

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know if Jon will ever become the KitN in the books, but it seems that this could be the plot on the show that replaces how he's learning to rule at the Wall. Instead of ruling at the Wall, he'll be ruling from Winterfell instead, dealing with LF and his machinations, the houses, the Wildlings and the threat of the Others. 

I hope GRRM doesn't write Jon as King. I'm more than happy with him fighting the Others and than dying at the end.

I don't really care whether Jon becomes king or doesn't, personally. What I find sad about the whole thing is that his whole reason for being would have been to eliminate this threat to the world. He was brought into the world for that, he died once trying to save people from that, he was brought back because his mission is not completed yet, then he dies at the end, and he's just some sacrificial lamb in the end, and I can't really accept that at this point. His sole purpose, the only reason he exists is to defeat a threat, and while it's a great purpose, it just seems so unfair. 

[YaddaYadda]

49 minutes ago, doram said:

the best 'ending' to Jon's story would be simply to live out his life in peace away from White Walkers and political machinations and intrigues. 

I agree with this. And that's one thing he seems to want too. 

[kittykat]

On 8/19/2016 at 4:45 PM, YaddaYadda said:

Does Robb's will matter if the North knows that Rickon is alive and that there's something out there trying to find him to bring him back? 

Maybe that's where things hit a snag in the books. Robb's will naming Jon his heir and people rallying to him, and those who want to put a legitimate Stark on the throne. The Sansa plot (minus LF) in the show would be played out with Rickon instead even if he's just a child. When Manderly is in Winterfell, he has already sent Davos to look for Rickon, his liege lord. 

Seems like the two plots might end up colliding. Jon wouldn't usurp Rickon because that's not who he is. He might be regent until Rickon comes of age and then step aside for his brother. Even as Lyanna's son, Ned's children are still the heirs to Winterfell, and the North. 

Maege Mormont and I don't remember which Glover went looking for Howland Reed who so happens to be the only person alive who knows Jon's parentage, so I'm assuming the big reveal will happen in book 6 whenever that comes out. 

Considering in the books that the Northmen are very stubborn about making a move unless a true born MALE heir is found, I would assume they would argue Rickon's claim over Jon's.

IIRC Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover had taken a boat from Seagard and went through the bogs with a small army to attack Moat Cailin unawares from the North while Robb's army would've attacked from the South  (no one has ever taken MC from the South alone).  Unfortunately the Red Wedding put that plan in the shitter.  Presumably Maege and Galbert are still alive and seeking refuge at Greywater Watch.

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, kittykat said:

IIRC Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover had taken a boat from Seagard and went through the bogs with a small army to attack Moat Cailin unawares from the North while Robb's army would've attacked from the South  (no one has ever taken MC from the South alone).  Unfortunately the Red Wedding put that plan in the shitter.  Presumably Maege and Galbert are still alive and seeking refuge at Greywater Watch.

Which puts them in contact with the only person (presumably) who knows Jon's parentage.

[OhOkayWhat]

Within the show universe, I think it will be Bran the messenger of the real Jon parentage. They invested time to show the audience two things at the same time: the birth of Jon and that Bran knows about it. Usually if you add this thing to your narrative, you add it to use it later.  Also, Bran is going to the Wall, it is possible he will go to Winterfell after that.

Another thing I noticed about the last interview with the showrunners is that they see Sandor narrative as a very open thing from the very beginning, this is a  very interesting detail if we think about his relationships with the main characters.

Edited August 22, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Another thing I noticed about the last interview with the showrunners is that they see Sandor narrative as a very open thing from the very beginning, this is a  very interesting detail if we think about his relationships with the main characters.

Was that the Deadline interview? Because all they said about the Hound in that interview as I remember it was that they wouldn't have cared as much for the character were it not for Rory McCann playing him.

Going back to this quote from the same Deadline interview...

Quote

The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies. As E.O. Wilson wrote, “Within a group, selfish individuals always win. But in contests between groups, groups of altruists always beat groups of selfish individuals.” So Jon Snow better hope this is a contest between groups.

Sounds like a confirmation of Jon vs. Sansa to me.

[Blue1815195]

9 hours ago, Jazzy24 said:

That's what I hope to. 

I hope GRRM doesn't write Jon as King. I'm more than happy with him fighting the Others and than dying at the end. 

Being king/queen is not a good thing in the world of ASOIAF, Jon does not deserve that hell. 

I hope he doesn't die. I can see him deciding to live out  the rest of his life at the Nights Watch once the White Walkers have been dealt with, but I other than that I agree I can't really see him wanting to rule.

It wouldn't really be possible for either Jon or Daenerys to at least try to rebuild Valryia would it. Its kind of burnt and infested with Greyscale. But I would prefer that to one person being King (or Queen) of everything.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Blue1815195

[anamika]

So, Maisie Williams seems very excited about season 7!

http://imgur.com/a/7knip

I am hoping for great things for both Arya and Dany next season. Two characters who have been in a holding pattern in Essos for the last two seasons while Westeros gets ready for them. As much as I criticize this show and the writing, I can't think of any other show where we have main characters meeting each other for the first time after 6 seasons and the build up to this has been amazing.  Just the thought of Dany interacting with characters like Olenna, Cersei, Jaime, Arya and Jon is wonderful. We are finally getting there.

As for Arya, Maisie thought that the audience might find her season 6 story line boring - so her reactions here makes me think an interesting season 7 for her. Either she heads south and Cersei or North and Jon. Or meets up with Nymeria!! Hope the shortened episode count allows for more Direwolves this season.

[bunnyblue]

46 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Going back to this quote from the same Deadline interview...

Quote

The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies. As E.O. Wilson wrote, “Within a group, selfish individuals always win. But in contests between groups, groups of altruists always beat groups of selfish individuals.” So Jon Snow better hope this is a contest between groups.

Sounds like a confirmation of Jon vs. Sansa to me.

To me too. So the altruistic group would be Jon, Bran (assuming he makes it to WF), Meera, Davos, and Tormund. The selfish group would be Littlefinger and Sansa, with maybe some random Northern or Vale lords. Considering Jon is protagonist 1A (to Dany's A1), he's not going to lose. Not yet. So either Sansa comes to her senses or she'll meet the same fate as Littlefinger. I wonder which side Brienne will side with. She's Sansa's sworn sword but she distrusts Littlefinger from way back in S2. Then again, she isn't fond of Davos either.

 

22 minutes ago, anamika said:

So, Maisie Williams seems very excited about season 7!

She sure does. I'm a little terrified of her "nothing can prepare you for this". I hope she's alluding to the Wall falling and the WW invasion or whatever chaos goes on in King's Landing when Dany and Cersei clash. I really hope it's not another Stark or direwolf death. Or the the Hound's.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Was that the Deadline interview? Because all they said about the Hound in that interview as I remember it was that they wouldn't have cared as much for the character were it not for Rory McCann playing him.

Going back to this quote from the same Deadline interview...

Sounds like a confirmation of Jon vs. Sansa to me.

If I am reading correctly between lines, it means that, at least in the show, they did not have a plot for Sandor written on stone at the beginning, it was only after they chose Rory, Sandor became important. I think that is the reason of the changes between books vs. show if we look at his relationship with Sansa and Arya.

About the whole "selfishness within a group" and "altruist group vs. selfish group", I think it means they are talking about the Game of Thrones vs. the Fight to survive the Long Night.  Within the Game, selfish people like Littlefinger have certain advantages, but the Game ultimately means very little if we see the whole perspective: the risk of the Long Night. That is where the importance of Jon comes from, even if he is not good playing the Game. It does not mean Jon vs Sansa. It means Jon vs Petyr and Jon needing Sansa to play the game.

Edited August 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

43 minutes ago, anamika said:

As for Arya, Maisie thought that the audience might find her season 6 story line boring - so her reactions here makes me think an interesting season 7 for her. Either she heads south and Cersei or North and Jon.

I think she will go South first, to find something fundamental about herself and then she will go back North at the end of season.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Was that the Deadline interview? Because all they said about the Hound in that interview as I remember it was that they wouldn't have cared as much for the character were it not for Rory McCann playing him.

Which indicates that we may not get a Sandor/Sansa ending if they don't consider Sandor important to the end game narrative. But then again, Sansa's story on the show itself is rather fluid and very different to the book version.

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

About the whole "selfishness within a group" and "altruist group vs. selfish group", I think it means they are talking about the Game of Thrones vs. the Fight to survive the Long Night.  Within the Game, selfish people like Littlefinger have certain advantages, but the Game ultimately means very little if we see the whole perspective: the risk of the Long Night. That is where the importance of Jon comes from, even if he is not good playing the Game. It does not mean Jon vs Sansa. It means Jon vs Petyr and Jon needing Sansa to play the game.

 

Just based on the show, if we consider altruist group vs selfish group, in which group would you put Sansa? How has Sansa proved herself to be altruistic this season?  Have we seen her speak about the bigger picture and the WW? I would think the altruistic people would be:

- Tormund and the Wildlings (Wun Wun) - who laid their lives on the line because Jon helped them

- Jon himself, who thinks consolidating the North will help in the fight against the WW and banished Mel despite her being a valuable asset

- Lyanna Mormont who gave her 62 men to the fight because her uncle thought Jon was the right man to lead the fight against the WW

- Davos, who helps Jon because he really understands the WW threat.

- Edd and the NW

Sansa's stated goal last season was to win back Winterfell - for herself, and kill Ramsay. She is disgruntled that Jon was made KITN over her, despite him being better qualified to handle the WW threat. She does not respect the opinions of any of the altruistic folks listed above. If she was a team player, she would have informed Jon and their allies about LF and the Vale army. Her viewpoint is rather narrow - Winterfell. I think it was made rather clear last season that Sansa is only looking out for number one.

So I don't think Sansa fits into the altruistic group. Which puts her into the selfish group along with LF. Now, their goals may be ultimately different - Sansa wanting more control and power in WF  because she thinks that she is best qualified to rule and LF wanting to control the power behind the Iron Throne and use chaos as a laddah - but they may end up using each other to achieve their individual goals. They would be then going up against an altruistic team of Jon, Davos, Tormund, Lyanna Mormont, Bran and Meera who would be thinking of the greater, existential threat and need the resources of WF and the North to deal with that. With LF more or less controlling the Vale and the Blackfish out of the picture, I think Sansa needs LF. And LF is too clever to be used as a pawn by someone like Sansa Stark.

But remember they also mention selfish people winning in groups and that Jon better hope for a contest between groups. I think we will see Sansa/LF undermining Jon initially within the group and winning and then the altruist group (Davos and co. and maybe even Arya!) steps in and the fight becomes between groups and and that helps Jon take down Sansa/LF.

This is of course all wild speculation at this point.

3 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

 I wonder which side Brienne will side with. She's Sansa's sworn sword but she distrusts Littlefinger from way back in S2. Then again, she isn't fond of Davos either.

I am sure that when it comes down to it,  Brienne sides with Sansa. Brienne herself is not flawless and has made questionable decisions in both the show and the books. Her devotion to Jaime is a big sticking point for me. Jaime is the one person responsible for most of the misfortunes suffered by the Starks and yet she sides with him over Lady Stoneheart (In the books) and tries to return the Stark ancestral sword back to him (On the show). She supports Renly over rightful heir Stannis because she was smitten with Renly.  While she questions Sansa about her lie to Jon, she blindly accepts her decision to do so. I see Brienne standing with Sansa and Littlefinger against Jon and Co.

I do wonder though if Brienne gets back to the North in time for the Stark Vs Stark civil war. She may be held up near the Riverlands with the Brotherhood and Sandor.

Edited August 23, 2016 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Which indicates that we may not get a Sandor/Sansa ending if they don't consider Sandor important to the end game narrative. But then again, Sansa's story on the show itself is rather fluid and very different to the book version.

Just based on the show, if we consider altruist group vs selfish group, in which group would you put Sansa? How has Sansa proved herself to be altruistic this season?...

 

"Which indicates that we may not get a Sandor/Sansa ending if they don't consider Sandor important to the end game narrative". I agree with this.

Disagree about Sansa vs. Jon. Your question "Just based on the show, if we consider altruist group vs selfish group, in which group would you put Sansa?" is very good and it is exactly the point I am trying to make: There will be a Jon vs. Petyr war and the battlefield will be Sansa soul. Right now we do not know what is happening inside her mind, and she does not know it either. It will be something we will see next season. She is at the very edge of a fundamental decision and it comes as a parallel plot with her sister narrative, because Arya needs to make a very important choice too.

Edited August 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

There will be a Jon vs. Petyr war and the battlefield will be Sansa soul.

And that in itself is inherently selfish. Jon has better and more important things to do than battle for Sansa's soul. That's the point.

17 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

 because Arya needs to make a very important choice too.

Arya has already made her choice. She is Arya Stark and she is going home. Before she heads home, however, she is clearing her list of Stark enemies.

Edited August 23, 2016 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

And that in itself is inherently selfish. Jon has better and more important things to do than battle for Sansa's soul. That's the point.

That war happening is not (mostly) Sansa choice. But she will need to make a choice to end it.

[anamika]

1 minute ago, OhOkayWhat said:

That war happening is not (mostly) Sansa choice. But she will need to make a choice to end it.

How is that not Sansa's choice? Jon and co. have repeatedly stressed the danger of the WW. If Sansa chooses to ignore that over the petty politics of who should rule WF, then that's on her. If she is seduced by LF whispering false truths into her ear, then that's on her. She no longer has the excuse of being young and naive.

[OhOkayWhat]

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

How is that not Sansa's choice? Jon and co. have repeatedly stressed the danger of the WW. If Sansa chooses to ignore that over the petty politics of who should rule WF, then that's on her. If she is seduced by LF whispering false truths into her ear, then that's on her. She no longer has the excuse of being young and naive.

It is not, mostly, Sansa's choice because it is the giant amount of trauma that transformed her soul in that battlefield.

[anamika]

45 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It is not, mostly, Sansa's choice because it is the giant amount of trauma that transformed her soul in that battlefield.

Every single person on this show has had a giant amount of trauma transforming their soul - how is Sansa different in that regard? Jon was betrayed and stabbed to death by Olly, a kid he took under his wing and cared for. He is suffering from PTSD. Arya was beaten up and blind. Bran is crippled and lost Summer and Hodor. Sansa's trauma does not justify the lack of family loyalty and the failure to see the bigger picture on her part, especially since Ramsey is dead and gone and there is a bigger threat looming on the horizon. That's just being selfish and power hungry.

But I do think we have to pause and consider if they will go for Jon Vs Sansa and if they do, how they will go about it. For one, Sophie Turner mentioned that Sansa could either team up with LF or she could team up with her brother Jon - this was after she got the scripts.

So Sansa may team up with Jon after all. Her turning on Jon is not a done deal.  But then David and Dan mention in their interview that - "The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies." The plural enemies makes it seem that there is more than one and I can't think of anyone other than LF who is a dishonorable enemy up North. Which leaves only Sansa to team up with him.

And if we do get the conflict, I don't think it will be black and white or as straightforward as Jon being good and Sansa being bad. The writers will try to justify Sansa's choices with Jon possibly making some stupid decisions and Sansa wanting to take over because she thinks she can do a better job.  The writers do seem to think that honorable = stupid, so expect Jon to make some dumb decisions that will have the internet supporting Sansa as Queen in the North, rather than Jon. I remember after Battle of the Bastards aired a lot of the discussion forums and popular media wanted Sansa to become the leader because Jon was stupid enough to fall for Ramsey's trap even after she warned him. They even appreciated that Sansa held back the Vale info because stupid Jon would have squandered the advantage. Take this piece by Laura Hudson on wired for example:

Quote

"There’s been some criticism of Sansa for not sharing strategic information with her brother, which misses one very important point: Jon might be a great paladin, but he’s a terrible commander, a man who always telegraphs his moves, because his move will always be to do the Right Thing. Not sharing the linchpin secret of their only chance at victory with the Leeroy Jenkins of Westeros wasn’t just a defensible choice for Sansa, it was a borderline brilliant one; the best way to take down Ramsay Bolton was to make him think that Jon was falling into his trap, and since Jon has consistently proven that he’s too Lawful Good to effectively scheme against anyone, tricking Jon was the only way to get it done. Sansa apologizes anyway, because apparently she has to do everything around here, get no credit for it, and still say she’s sorry for hurting Jon’s fee-fees."

    I expect to see more of this next season.

Edited August 23, 2016 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Every single person on this show has had a giant amount of trauma transforming their soul - how is Sansa different in that regard?

I never said she is different in that regard. In fact, I think Arya plot runs a parallel storyline with Sansa's as I said before.

 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa's trauma does not justify the lack of family loyalty and the failure to see the bigger picture on her part,

I do not try to justify Sansa actions. She made big mistakes and she did terrible things (them go beyond the lack of family loyalty and her failure to see the bigger picture). Jon and Arya too. And of course, most of the rest of characters.

 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

But I do think we have to pause and consider if they will go for Jon Vs Sansa

That is something I said I do not think will happen. It will be, I think, Jon vs. Petyr with Sansa in the middle.

 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

"The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies." The plural enemies makes it seem that there is more than one and I can't think of anyone other than LF who is a dishonorable enemy up North. Which leaves only Sansa to team up with him.

I think they are talking about Jon storyline as a whole. In other words, they are talking about the people who betrayed him previously too. Remember the showrunners see the story in a different way we do, they see it like a single 73 hour long movie. To try to read between lines in an interview like that is a very tricky thing.

 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

The writers do seem to think that honorable = stupid,

I think instead of that they are trying (sometimes with more success than others) to analyze how hard is for a good man to do right thing among bad people. In fact, in the interview as you quoted, they said : "The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies.".In my opinion, it does not sound like honorable= stupid. It sounds like honorable = a hard thing to do.

 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

that will have the internet supporting Sansa as Queen in the North, rather than Jon. I remember after Battle of the Bastards aired a lot of the discussion forums and popular media wanted Sansa to become the leader

I remember plenty of people celebrating Jon as King on the North too. And with so many characters walking a thin grey line and the so-called "good guys" also doing terrible things (Jon included) it is not strange we have people discussing and have different opinions about the characters. There is people that think that "Sansa in the Vale learning to play the Game from Petyr" is a good thing for her. I respectfully disagree with that. Learning from Petyr is destroying Sansa.

Now I will quote myself here:

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

That war happening is not (mostly) Sansa choice. But she will need to make a choice to end it.

And

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

It is not, mostly, Sansa's choice because it is the giant amount of trauma that transformed her soul in that battlefield.

Please, notice that I mentioned the abusers as a big part of the transformation of Sansa mind in a battlefield, but also I said she needs to make a choice to end it. Because I think it is her responsibility  to try to get better, to be a better person, to fight the darkness inside her and the darkness around her too. But she needs help to do it. And Jon will help her. And there is nothing wrong on that. That is love too. To help someone.

In fact, I think that is part of the whole plot and the reason why the showrunners put them together: so they find a way to communicate and to open their hearts and help each other, even if their own issues and other people machinations are trying to separate them. If they love each other (and I am not talking about romantic love) and help each other (Jon will need Sansa and Sansa will help him) they will become stronger and becoming stronger they will help the people in a better way.

 

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Arya has already made her choice. She is Arya Stark and she is going home. Before she heads home, however, she is clearing her list of Stark enemies.

Arya still needs to make an very important choice. She needs to stop the violence. Inside her, darkness is growing and destroying her and she needs to defeat that darkness. She needs to learn to forgive, she needs to learn that vengeance is a terrible thing and that even if she feels now more powerful than ever, all that is only a trap of the darkness inside her, it is just an illusion of power and nothing else.

And Arya also will need help. In her case, I think, it will be Sandor the person who will help her, at least, it makes sense within the show narrative.

Edited August 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

So Sansa may team up with Jon after all. Her turning on Jon is not a done deal.  But then David and Dan mention in their interview that - "The question will be whether an honorable man can overcome dishonorable enemies." The plural enemies makes it seem that there is more than one and I can't think of anyone other than LF who is a dishonorable enemy up North. Which leaves only Sansa to team up with him.

I agree. If Sansa sides with Jon over LF, that's not much of a conflict, since LF is isolated in the North without Sansa's support. The quote from D&D about how Jon had better hope that the contest is between groups--meaning he needs to have other altruists in his corner to defeat the selfish individuals--also implies to me that it's Jon vs. Sansa and LF, since if Sansa sides with Jon from the start and supports him without reservations, what's the problem?

I also agree with anamika that Sansa could not be characterized as altruistic (or unselfish) at this point. She could undergo some epiphany in Season 7, but I doubt it.

Quote

In fact, I think that is part of the whole plot and the reason why the showrunners put them together: so they find a way to communicate and to open their hearts and help each other, even if their own issues and other people machinations are trying to separate them. If they love each other (and I am not talking about romantic love) and help each other (Jon will need Sansa and Sansa will help him) they will become stronger and becoming stronger they will help the people in a better way.

It could go that way, but I think at this point neither character is likely to undergo some radical transformation in how they do business with the other. Season 6 demonstrated the limits of Sansa's good intentions when it comes to Jon.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[paigow]

3 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Arya still needs to make an very important choice. She needs to stop the violence. Inside her, darkness is growing and destroying her and she needs to defeat that darkness. She needs to learn to forgive, she needs to learn that vengeance is a terrible thing and that even if she feels now more powerful than ever, all that is only a trap of the darkness inside her, it is just an illusion of power and nothing else.

And Arya also will need help. In her case, I think, it will be Sandor the person who will help her, at least, it makes sense within the show narrative.

Sandor is the least suitable vengeance therapist in Westeros....all my peacenik friends were slaughtered...GRRRWAARRR!!

[benteen]

It won't happen on the show and maybe not in the book but I always thought it would be fascinating if Arya came across Lady Stoneheart.  Seeing what her mother had become is something I think might scare her straight.  To me, Lady Stoneheart represents the Ghost of Arya Future, what she will become is she keeps up this bloody path of vengeance. 

[OhOkayWhat]

On 8/23/2016 at 8:00 AM, Eyes High said:

Season 6 demonstrated the limits of Sansa's good intentions when it comes to Jon.

Season-6-Sansa plotline deals with the immediate aftermath (including the next weeks, of course) of years of abuse she suffered (specially the last months when everything reached absolute-nightmare levels). Therefore it is hard to conclude something from season 6 and to think things are set on stone. There is plenty of space within the narrative to see Sansa evolve. In fact, her character is evolving with every season.

Edited August 25, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

On 8/23/2016 at 8:34 AM, paigow said:

Sandor is the least suitable vengeance therapist in Westeros....all my peacenik friends were slaughtered...GRRRWAARRR!!

That is the reason I also said in my comment:

 

On 8/23/2016 at 8:34 AM, paigow said:

at least, it makes sense within the show narrative.

You are right,  Sandor is evolving, but he is still a mess. He still has too much violence inside him and around him. He is unfit to do the job. But that is the interesting thing, we are talking here about a narrative, and within narrative (novel, shows, films, etc.) it is a common thing that the author creates precisely the character unfit for the job to do the job. That element is at the heart of a lot of stories. And of course it includes evolution within the character.

Sandor will meet Arya, and soon, he will become aware of her new skills and the high price she paid for them: her mind, her soul. And Sandor cares about her. Seeing her in such state will be a wake-up call for him and for her too. Will it be complicated? of course! everything with them both is very complex. But that is the reason I said Sansa and Arya will need to make a choice next season, a very important one.

 

On 8/23/2016 at 9:03 AM, benteen said:

It won't happen on the show and maybe not in the book but I always thought it would be fascinating if Arya came across Lady Stoneheart.  Seeing what her mother had become is something I think might scare her straight.  To me, Lady Stoneheart represents the Ghost of Arya Future, what she will become is she keeps up this bloody path of vengeance. 

I suspect that the lack of Lady Stoneheart in the show is other of the reasons that makes the showrunners use Sandor so heavily within Arya narrative.

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

it is a common thing that the author creates precisely the character unfit for the job to do the job. That element is at the heart of a lot of stories. And of course it includes evolution within the character.

Just that within GRRM narrative, many of the "unfit" - e.g. Tommen; Ned; Slynt; Robert - end up dead / failing.  I'm all for Sandor trying to help Arya, but for him to succeed would be a bad plot choice.

[OhOkayWhat]

58 minutes ago, paigow said:

Just that within GRRM narrative, many of the "unfit" - e.g. Tommen; Ned; Slynt; Robert - end up dead / failing.  I'm all for Sandor trying to help Arya, but for him to succeed would be a bad plot choice.

Very interesting comment. 3 Things to analyze:

1) If we are talking about Show-Sandor, we are not talking exactly about GRRM narrative anymore. We are talking about the showrunners variations and decisions within the show. And one of the characters who was changed a lot by them is precisely Sandor.

2) I think it is a bad plot choice if you build a narrative with elements to use them later, and you do not use it.

3) I also think it is not necessarily a good plot choice if you make a character fail doing the same thing twice. Sandor is evolving and he already failed giving advice and protecting Arya, it could be a strange narrative decision to make him to do the exact same again, after them both reunite.

[Heathrowe99]

I'm not ready to go down the rabbit hole of Sansa turning on John due to one oblique look and some comments from the actress on what Sansa might be feeling. I agree that the larger/selfish/unselfish story is the WW's vs the GOT. 

The thing I wonder most about for next season is what will happen to Arya? I really think she has gone so far from a normal existence that I don't think she can come back. She can't come back to Winterfell and put being an assassin aside, be a lady and marry, have children, or do you think she could? I kind of think there is no end for the character except death. I love her, but I think she is a psychopath at this point. I'm not sure how her story is redeeemable. I didn't get much enjoyment out of that Frey Pie, because I think she's too far gone as a character.

[SeanC]

44 minutes ago, Heathrowe99 said:

The thing I wonder most about for next season is what will happen to Arya? I really think she has gone so far from a normal existence that I don't think she can come back.

I don't really see how she's any more changed by her experiences than any of her siblings (other than Bran, I guess, who is the only Stark kid not getting a "the darkness is part of them now" tease from D&D).

[SeanC]

The actors are starting to filter into Belfast again, as you'd expect.  Sophie and Maisie were hanging out around town today.