S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[sistermagpie]

8 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

You can even do it in such a way to disguise the switch so the kids would never even know about it. I'm not sure which option would be best for the Jennings. But I know that I was P or E, I would never want the kids answering a phone call for one of the parents originating from the "agency".

That's not necessary, though. The agency doesn't say anything agency-like on the phone. They'd just ask to speak to one of the parents like anybody else.

26 minutes ago, queenanne said:

I wouldn’t say I was perfect, but as a quiet introvert, I absolutely would not have blabbed like Paige.  I know how to keep my own counsel.  I most certainly wouldn’t have considered Pastor Tim “safe” for no longer than it took me to say “OH SHIT!  I fergot, he tells Alice everything and she blabs it!” 

Yeah, me too with the age and I don't think Paige's reaction would have been like mine at all. Of course, I wouldn't have had a Pastor Tim either--Paige seems to be much more trusting of adults in that way than I or most teens would have been. I can't imagine I would have told anyone because that's just not the way i dealt/deal with things.

Also it's surprising to me how she doesn't seem to already have a script in her head for "Russian spies" that includes everything she's learning now. Even if you didn't live in fear of the Soviet bogeyman it was there in the culture. She's even literally watching this story on her soap opera with murders and stealing technology included. Paige was definitely old enough to know that Pastor Tim was not bound to act the way she wanted and would have obvious reasons to betray her confidence but she herself seems to be exceptionally naive and trusting in that way. And probably has been encouraged to be so not just by her parents but the church too. I get that she should have trouble associating her parents with murderous things--that makes sense. But she'd think of all that if only to reject it.

Edited June 4, 2016 by sistermagpie

[AllyB]

There is precedent for Paige being naive when it comes to Tim. She gave him all her money, a very considerable sum for someone her age in the early 80s, within months of knowing him. We also know that shortly after joining the church Paige ditched her old friends, like Shelley who is almost never mentioned post Grooveyhair, and the volleyball team. So I'm not sure that we can apply our own experiences to how Paige is feeling and reacting. Paige has no family beyond her nuclear one, I know that if I was a teenager and had discovered a troubling secret about my parents I would have had a number of trustworthy people to talk to, my grandmothers, my aunts/uncles, my best friend from childhood. I'd probably have tried to talk through how I was feeling by applying subterfuge, 'umm I have this 'friend' and she just found out her parents are really spies.......' and I'd probably have been as obvious as all hell. But Paige was under the influence of Tim's religious teaching which was never to lie and to trust him. It's really unsurprising that she confided in him. Ironically the fact he told Alice her secret almost immediately meant that he lost his hold over her.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, AllyB said:

There is precedent for Paige being naive when it comes to Tim.

Totally agree. They set Paige up as being all or nothing trusting of Tim, with stuff before that that showed her personality was more likely to do that. So yeah, his telling Alice was another all or nothing situation. It's actually really interesting how they haven't really had her going back and forth in whether she should trust him or her parents. She gave him everything as a relative stranger and he completely shocked her by not only betraying her trust by not getting it was a big deal. That's also very much like Elizabeth, obviously.

She goes back and forth with her parents on trusting them or not but the fact that they placed such trust in her seems to really be important to her. That's set up with her earlier personality too, I think. That's also why it seems important to look at how Henry was set up because he'll probably the same way.

I've been thinking for instance about his asking Philip "So they *weren't* mugged?" in the hall and his seeming to want to know more. At first I took that as completely about him being concerned and wanting to know they weren't hurt. Now I wonder if it wasn't a lot about suspicion, with Henry seeing Paige and her parents' reaction as OTT for a mugging that didn't happen. Paige wasn't as upset by her hitchhiking scare which went down much the same way, but without any death.

[hellmouse]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Totally agree. They set Paige up as being all or nothing trusting of Tim, with stuff before that that showed her personality was more likely to do that. So yeah, his telling Alice was another all or nothing situation. It's actually really interesting how they haven't really had her going back and forth in whether she should trust him or her parents. She gave him everything as a relative stranger and he completely shocked her by not only betraying her trust by not getting it was a big deal. That's also very much like Elizabeth, obviously.

She goes back and forth with her parents on trusting them or not but the fact that they placed such trust in her seems to really be important to her. That's set up with her earlier personality too, I think. That's also why it seems important to look at how Henry was set up because he'll probably the same way.

I've been thinking for instance about his asking Philip "So they *weren't* mugged?" in the hall and his seeming to want to know more. At first I took that as completely about him being concerned and wanting to know they weren't hurt. Now I wonder if it wasn't a lot about suspicion, with Henry seeing Paige and her parents' reaction as OTT for a mugging that didn't happen. Paige wasn't as upset by her hitchhiking scare which went down much the same way, but without any death.

I feel like they could be setting up a Henry-Paige conversation, where he asks her if she is okay. He's picked up that something is going on, but he doesn't know what. When Tim and Alice dropped off Paige from miniature golfing, the parents immediately followed her inside and we lingered on his reaction. When Philip followed them upstairs, we lingered on his reaction. This time he actually followed upstairs. I don't know what he's imagining, but I could see him wanting to make sure his sister is okay and seeking a time to ask her. She would probably lie in an unconvincing way. But I think it's leading to Henry finding out the truth about his parents next season, if not the next episode. 

ETA: Also, as AllyB pointed out, Paige completely trusted Pastor Tim, and I think that laid out some of the groundwork for her not immediately thinking of the authorities regarding her parents. He holds himself and the church as a higher moral power than the state and the police. Paige came back from the anti-nuke rally shocked at how the police acted, and on the side of Pastor Tim's civil disobedience and activism. When she tells him about her parents being Russian spies, he never says we need to report them because it's illegal, only that they need to make sure they're not hurting anyone.  Now her parents say they can't report the attempted mugger's death because they can't draw attention to themselves, and she accepts that logic. It's interesting that both sources of authority in her life - parents and church - fall on the same side in that way.

Edited June 4, 2016 by hellmouse

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

It's interesting that both sources of authority in her life - parents and church - fall on the same side in that way.

I hadn't thought of it that way but that's true. And no doubt by design. Pastor Tim's views have been connected to her parents' before, when they were able to give her the impression they didn't think she was doing enough to protest--or at least Elizabeth did. That Pastor Tim held himself up as the ultimate authority really did mean he gave her a way of thinking that wasn't about the law, exactly. He takes that to the extreme that he never even brings up the treasonous aspects here or the cold war. It's like he doesn't see his country as being relevant at all, which is not true for her parents. They're the ones loyal to country.

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

I don't know what he's imagining, but I could see him wanting to make sure his sister is okay and seeking a time to ask her. She would probably lie in an unconvincing way. But I think it's leading to Henry finding out the truth about his parents next season, if not the next episode. 

Yes, I wonder about that. There were times in the past where people tried to say those two were exceptionally close because they raise themselves or whatever, but I don't think that's true. They seem to have a normal sibling relationship where sometimes they confide in each other rather than their parents or are allied, but they don't seem to be weirdly close. Paige's focused interest in him now is more about her alliance with her parents and seeing him as a child who needs to be watched. Plus she's forming a relationship with Matthew that's probably more interesting to him than the one with Henry.

But I liked that it was Philip he felt he could ask about it. I'm not sure if I was in his position of seeing some intense thing going on between Paige and my parents who I'd feel it was most natural to talk to. They have set Henry up this season as being drawn to older men for guidance more naturally and Philip did seem to deal with him in the right way here. That is, the two of them seemed to share an understanding that if Paige or their mom were hurt or scared this was something for them to be concerned about. It's subtle but it is something the two have in common. It also might feel easier for him to talk about girls, even his sister, with his dad, a man, than with her herself. Philip even automatically spoke to the weirdness of the situation by saying no they weren't mugged but, you know, it was scary, as if answering any unasked question about why they're huddled in a room bringing her water instead of telling it as a scary story all four of them.

The Henry/Philip connection is subtle and often overshadowed by the Stan/Henry stuff but they've laid a groundwork for Henry's personality being very influenced by him. And also that Henry really likes having him around.

[Umbelina]

I was much more aware of the world than Paige, and also read quite a bit, fiction and non fiction, history, spying, and I was naive about some things (sex) but very mature about others, had a great deal of responsibility from a young age, blah blah blah.

Still, I know I would have told someone.  It wouldn't have been another adult, I would have told my best friend.  I'd have needed another opinion, advice, sympathy, just someone to talk about it all with, to vent, to think.  I'd realize the danger that could add to my parents because I had a much better idea of just who and what the KGB were, but more than that, the CIA and FBI.  I know I'd feel danger everywhere, those 15 year old emotions would make my imagination run wild, I'd be seeing spies everywhere, think my room was bugged, not trust anyone, especially my lying parents, the idea that Stan lived across the street would freak me out. 

I'd tell, I'd trust my best friend more than my parents at this point.  I think that's why Paige is pushing for honesty so much, and after that easy execution by her mom, she NEEDS them to talk honestly with her,  who else does she have?

Edited June 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I was much more aware of the world than Paige, and also read quite a bit, fiction and non fiction, history, spying, and I was naive about some things (sex) but very mature about others, had a great deal of responsibility from a young age, blah blah blah.

Still, I know I would have told someone.  It wouldn't have been another adult, I would have told my best friend.  I'd have needed another opinion, advice, sympathy, just someone to talk about it all with, to vent, to think.  I'd realize the danger that could add to my parents because I had a much better idea of just who and what the KGB were, but more than that, the CIA and FBI.  I know I'd feel danger everywhere, those 15 year old emotions would make my imagination run wild, I'd be seeing spies everywhere, think my room was bugged, not trust anyone, especially my lying parents, the idea that Stan lived across the street would freak me out. 

I'd tell, I'd trust my best friend more than my parents at this point.  I think that's why Paige is pushing for honesty so much, and after that easy execution by her mom, she NEEDS them to talk honestly with her,  who else does she have?

I think I give a lot of rope to Paige becauce I was very naive when I was young.  I read a lot but I wasn't very worldly.   I was introverted without many friends so when I did make a few I let them drive the relationship.  Paige is smart and intuitive but doesn't have a full understanding of the world around her but that is in large part because she has been so well sheltered from it.

[SunnyBeBe]

If Oleg was so concerned about the Soviets getting the bio virus, why couldn't he have just sent out an anonymous warning that the mission had been compromised. and that it should be aborted.  Even if they were confused as to who sent it, they would have likely aborted it. By warning the FBI, he placed his own people in jeopardy.  And if he was determined  to inform the FBI, he still should have warned his own people anonymously, instead of letting them walk into the trap.

Edited June 4, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[Umbelina]

Well, this way he shuts down any possible William involvement in the future with bioweapons too.  I think the answer is in his words.  ONE man in Russia saved our world from nuclear disaster and possibly annihilation. 

He's over spies, and governments, and is moved, this one time, to look out for humanity instead.  He's having his own personal moment of "saving the world" or "doing the right thing."

[SunnyBeBe]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, this way he shuts down any possible William involvement in the future with bioweapons too.  I think the answer is in his words.  ONE man in Russia saved our world from nuclear disaster and possibly annihilation. 

He's over spies, and governments, and is moved, this one time, to look out for humanity instead.  He's having his own personal moment of "saving the world" or "doing the right thing."

Well....when you put it that way....lol.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Well, this way he shuts down any possible William involvement in the future with bioweapons too.  I think the answer is in his words.  ONE man in Russia saved our world from nuclear disaster and possibly annihilation. 

He's over spies, and governments, and is moved, this one time, to look out for humanity instead.  He's having his own personal moment of "saving the world" or "doing the right thing."

Hopefully it won't end as badly for him as it did for Nina!

[gwhh]

On June 3, 2016 at 0:56 PM, madam magpie said:

Elizabeth (and Philip, I guess) don't want to lie to Paige. All this discussion about what Paige does or doesn't deserve is irrelevant. The people with the information want to tell her the truth. They just don't know how or how much or when, and so on. They want to be honest, they value trust. Plus they're afraid the truth will make her hate them, even as they want her to know it. This is an allegory for regular parenting and the issues that come with it: sex, school shootings, nuclear war, drugs, why that neighbor guy hits his wife, whatever...all the hard things that parents struggle to discuss with their kids. For regular people, it's "Mom, did you do drugs? Which ones?" For Paige and Elizabeth, it's "Mom, how many people have you killed?" 

More like how many people mom had killed today!  

Edited June 5, 2016 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Hopefully it won't end as badly for him as it did for Nina!

Oh, it probably will...for William.

[AllyB]

9 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Hopefully it won't end as badly for him as it did for Nina!

I have developed a fear that it might. We saw last week how Stan doesn't want Oleg's demise on his conscience. He told Oleg that he was tasked with turning him and to stop meeting with him, to protect himself. I believe Stan meant that but of course when Oleg comes to him with the kind of information he gave him in this episode, Stan has to act on it. But if as an eventual result Oleg comes to a bad end, Stan is going to feel even more like crap. And it's that increasingly crappy emotional state that might compel him to show some sort of leniency toward his 'best friend' when he learns the truth about him. Which is how I potentially see the series climactic moment. Stan is in a position to arrest/kill P and/or E and he doesn't because he knows that if he does it will take an emotional toll he'll never recover from. But Oleg will be another person sacrificed to get Stan into this state.

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, it probably will...for William.

William knows so much though. Earlier in the season I was suspicious about why William was getting so much information out of Philip and what his motivation was. Now I'm sure William's motivation was honest, he just wanted to connect with a man in a similar position. But for the sake of the plot, William's knowledge about the Jennings, makes him so very, very dangerous if the FBI take him alive.

[sistermagpie]

I have to say, I'm really not seeing this burnout in Stan if I'm supposed to be seeing it. He seems absolutely fine to me and not guilt-ridden at all except for the moment where he announced he was guilt-ridden.

[SunnyBeBe]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I have to say, I'm really not seeing this burnout in Stan if I'm supposed to be seeing it. He seems absolutely fine to me and not guilt-ridden at all except for the moment where he announced he was guilt-ridden.

Me either.  I didn't buy that sappy speech to Oleg.  Made no sense to me.

I stated previously that I was quite alarmed with all the info that Philip gave William.  He knows so much by now.  He can place Philip as Clarke, since he is aware of the woman who fits Martha's situation, how many kids Philip has, he is married, description of E, etc.  He knows where Gabriel lives, etc.  Man.....

[madam magpie]

48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I have to say, I'm really not seeing this burnout in Stan if I'm supposed to be seeing it. He seems absolutely fine to me and not guilt-ridden at all except for the moment where he announced he was guilt-ridden.

I took Stan at his word and don't think he's so much burned out as not wanting to get another asset killed. I'd suspect that Nina's imprisonment and death hit him pretty hard, and he didn't want to be involved in a similar fate for Oleg. I think we're supposed to see the agents on both sides getting disillusioned with all the loss and fear.

Edited June 5, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I took Stan at his word and don't think he's so much burned out as not wanting to get another asset killed. I'd suspect that Nina's imprisonment and death hit him pretty hard, and he didn't want to be involved in a similar fate for Oleg. I think we're supposed to see the agents on both sides getting disillusioned with all the loss and fear.

That's why I can believe the show could be trying to show that but I just don't see it with Stan. It seems like if this is the case the show is just wanting him to be in the same place as all the Russian agents without putting him in there. I get that he's sad about Nina but I still really haven't seen that giving him any reason to be disillusioned through loss and fear. Especially since when we're at home with Stan I get the opposite message. I see him telling his best friend (who he's got every reason to be more honest with) that the KGB are animals and his son saying that he doesn't come home for days even though he was the one who wanted Matthew there. He seemed far more disillusioned in S2 when he was more in Oleg's position of thinking about handing over info and not doing it. Granted that was for a different reason, but that again just reminds me of how Stan simply isn't dealing with the same stakes the spies are. He seems firmly secure in the work he's doing and more in tune with his office than ever before with his Adderholdt partnership.

[madam magpie]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's why I can believe the show could be trying to show that but I just don't see it with Stan. It seems like if this is the case the show is just wanting him to be in the same place as all the Russian agents without putting him in there. I get that he's sad about Nina but I still really haven't seen that giving him any reason to be disillusioned through loss and fear. Especially since when we're at home with Stan I get the opposite message. I see him telling his best friend (who he's got every reason to be more honest with) that the KGB are animals and his son saying that he doesn't come home for days even though he was the one who wanted Matthew there. He seemed far more disillusioned in S2 when he was more in Oleg's position of thinking about handing over info and not doing it. Granted that was for a different reason, but that again just reminds me of how Stan simply isn't dealing with the same stakes the spies are. He seems firmly secure in the work he's doing and more in tune with his office than ever before with his Adderholdt partnership.

I think a person can be disillusioned with all the killing and lives lost and still think he's on the right side. I'd expect Elizabeth would feel that way too. Stan likely won't come to be pro Soviet, but he does seem to be tired of getting people he likes killed. For Stan, the exhaustion seems to be coming from loss. For Elizabeth, it looks like loss and fear. For William, it's the level of bullshit on both sides and the real danger of bio weapons. For Philip, I don't think much has changed, honestly; he seems as tired as always and is only sticking it out because of Elizabeth and the kids.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I think a person can be disillusioned with all the killing and lives lost and still think he's on the right side.

Sure, I'd say that applies to a lot of the characters. I just don't see it with Stan. I've seen lots of scenes with other characters that seem to say this without them even saying they feel that way. Stan seems perfectly chipper. If he'd said he was feeling good about his work I'd have bought it just as much--or more.

[hellmouse]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure, I'd say that applies to a lot of the characters. I just don't see it with Stan. I've seen lots of scenes with other characters that seem to say this without them even saying they feel that way. Stan seems perfectly chipper. If he'd said he was feeling good about his work I'd have bought it just as much--or more.

To me, Stan seems happy when he is with members of the the Jennings family, Philip and Henry especially. He seems to enjoy working with Aderholt. He no longer seems to be pining for Sandra, and he has Matthew around more, but he seems just as disconnected from his family as he did in the beginning of the show. 

I think Gaad's death has made him angry and unsettled. He's able to channel those feelings into his work, where he is having some success. But he's as clueless as ever about his emotional life.

[madam magpie]

23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sure, I'd say that applies to a lot of the characters. I just don't see it with Stan. I've seen lots of scenes with other characters that seem to say this without them even saying they feel that way. Stan seems perfectly chipper. If he'd said he was feeling good about his work I'd have bought it just as much--or more.

He did demonstrate it, though, in that scene with Oleg. I don't get the sense he feels good about his work at all. They're still reeling from the Martha thing. He probably still views his job as important, but it wears on him. Its been wearing on him from the beginning. He arrived worn out from the undercover gig, lost his marriage, got his mistress/asset killed, saw his boss kilked, uncovered a spy that he thought was an innocuous coworker, etc. I'd find it much harder to believe that Stan is happy and feeling good about his work than that he's tired and doesn't want to get Oleg arrested and killed.

Edited June 5, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

He did demonstrate it, though, in that scene with Oleg. I don't get the sense he feels good about his work at all.

That's what I mean. He demonstrated it when he announced it. Had  he announced something else I might have bought it just as much or maybe more. Unlike say with the Jennings where I felt I saw their emotional states and how they changed. Like they're in a better place now than they were before the time jump.

[madam magpie]

16 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's what I mean. He demonstrated it when he announced it. Had  he announced something else I might have bought it just as much or maybe more. Unlike say with the Jennings where I felt I saw their emotional states and how they changed. Like they're in a better place now than they were before the time jump.

I see no reason not to take Stan at his word, though. He's not the protagonist. He's not super complicated as a character. His journey isn't his own; it has to lend something to Elizabeth and Philip's journey. He's not proven to be an unreliable narrator. So if he has a conversation where he tells Oleg he doesn't want the guy on his conscience, I see no reason not to believe him, especially when it parallels a clear theme in the story. We really only know William's feelings from conversation as well. It seems totally plausible that Stan could feel that way and also still think his job is important. The Jennings are who this story is about. Of course they're more deeply drawn and have more layers. Stan is a pretty rich character, but the point of him is to provide a human and too-close-for-comfort antagonist for Elizabeth and Philip.

[hellmouse]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's what I mean. He demonstrated it when he announced it. Had  he announced something else I might have bought it just as much or maybe more. Unlike say with the Jennings where I felt I saw their emotional states and how they changed. Like they're in a better place now than they were before the time jump.

There is that racquetball game where he comments on how much energy Philip has, and alludes to how things aren't great with the new boss at work. It's not a huge thing, but it shows how he's in a worse place than before the time jump. And that was before Gaad was murdered.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I do see the burn out in Stan as well.  Remember, he was even in trouble with Gaad there, he nearly gave secrets to the Russians, he's lost his wife, his partner, he was numb from his long term embedding with the skin heads.  At first I thought he might be working Oleg, but the more I've thought about it?  The less I see that, I think he was being raw and honest there.

He's not broken, but he's pooped.

All of our main characters are hitting walls here.  That doesn't mean they don't get up and keep going, but the pressure and stress and issues, though different, are shared.

[sistermagpie]

53 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I see no reason not to take Stan at his word, though.

Well, he's talking to a guy he's been trying to work. That's a good reason.

I'm not refusing to believe that he's telling the truth there. I just think it was poorly set up compared to everybody else. He even seemed to be dressed up to look downtrodden in that scene when he wasn't in any other scene.

48 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

There is that racquetball game where he comments on how much energy Philip has, and alludes to how things aren't great with the new boss at work. It's not a huge thing, but it shows how he's in a worse place than before the time jump. And that was before Gaad was murdered.

But having a boss you don't like as much isn't on the level of what other people are going with. In fact, his very complaint there is that he doesn't like doing things by the book. He preferred the  "just get those Russians" mentality. I just see plenty of things this season with Stan--as opposed to the last 3 seasons--that are on the upswing rather than grinding him down. Relatively speaking Stan seems like he's in a better place mentally now than he's ever been before both at work and at home. If he's really supposed to be at the end of his rope then that's the plot and I won't argue with it, but I can't put it on the same level as William.

[RedHawk]

I think finding and following clues is revving Stan up. At last he's getting somewhere rather than feeling helpless and defeated. 

[Umbelina]

Well, his not quite by the book is what caught Martha.

The new boss's rotating teams of surveillance is a mistake he would never have made either.  That's why Philip could meet William whenever, "if it's Tuesday from 7-4 they are following Amber, 4-1, they are following Black, 1-10 on Wednesday they will be following Cerulean, I'm not due for being followed until 6-4 on Thursdays and Sundays.

[hellmouse]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, he's talking to a guy he's been trying to work. That's a good reason.

I'm not refusing to believe that he's telling the truth there. I just think it was poorly set up compared to everybody else. He even seemed to be dressed up to look downtrodden in that scene when he wasn't in any other scene.

But having a boss you don't like as much isn't on the level of what other people are going with. In fact, his very complaint there is that he doesn't like doing things by the book. He preferred the  "just get those Russians" mentality. I just see plenty of things this season with Stan--as opposed to the last 3 seasons--that are on the upswing rather than grinding him down. Relatively speaking Stan seems like he's in a better place mentally now than he's ever been before both at work and at home. If he's really supposed to be at the end of his rope then that's the plot and I won't argue with it, but I can't put it on the same level as William.

I agree - I don't think he's at the end of his rope. He's in a much better place than almost everyone else. But I think his equilibrium has been shaken by Gaad's death.It's got to be strange to be at the office and realize that three of your former colleagues are dead, one is gone and presumed to be a spy, and a key asset you worked and fell in love with is dead. I don't think Stan is falling apart, but I don't think he's on 100% solid ground either.

[madam magpie]

Quote

Well, he's talking to a guy he's been trying to work. That's a good reason.

Sure, but when Oleg gave him the tip about William, he didn't act thrilled that he'd played Oleg and gotten something. He took it and let Oleg leave. If the point was for Stan to be working Oleg, we should have seen that in the story.

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Sure, but when Oleg gave him the tip about William, he didn't act thrilled that he'd played Oleg and gotten something. He took it and let Oleg leave. If the point was for Stan to be working Oleg, we should have seen that in the story.

I think he'd act the same way either way. He got intel and handed it over. We know he was originally working him. We also didn't see him reluctant to meet with Oleg again despite saying he didn't want to see him, or look sad about Oleg turning traitor for Stan either.

However Stan was feeling, his original working of Oleg eventually resulted in Stan catching an Illegal and stopping an important thing. We'll see if there's any Stan/Oleg fallout from it I guess.

Edited June 5, 2016 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

Isn't Stan supposed to report and keep detailed records about all his dealings with Soviets?  I would suspect that he has not being doing that.  Recall how furious Gaad was with Stan once regarding improper behaior?  If Stan hasn't been reporting himself, then how did he report this latest meeting with Oleg?  Does he just say that he got a call out of the blue?  How does that make sense if he has been withholding that info over the last year? Stan was thrown a bone, but will his boss ask questions?

[Umbelina]

They are aware of his relationship with Oleg, I just don't think they are aware that a friendship has also developed, and that some *many* of his meetings were all about Nina.  So the FBI knows, but probably not about every single meeting, or completely specific content, especially the earliest ones.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

Can someone remind me of the name of the town that Elizabeth told Paige she grew up in?  It started with the letter S.....I think.

Edited June 5, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[hellmouse]

14 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Can someone remind me of the name of the town that Elizabeth told Paige she grew up in?  It started with the letter S.....I think.

Elizabeth grew up in Smolensk. Philip grew up in Tobolsk.

[lcarolynl]

The question has come up why P and E revealed their mission to Paige when they could have lied or told her they wouldn't share it with her but they've been ordered by the Center to prepare her to be recruited. If Paige is to make her own decision about whether or not to join the KGB, this is part of preparing her for the choices that await her. They are not only her parents, they are her handlers and sometimes those roles will conflict.

I think as a parent I would have told her the same thing. She's been towing the line (with Pastor Tim) for over seven months. She's earned some confidences. 

[Ina123]

Let's not forget that Oleg blackmailed Stan for the list of who was being followed and when. I think that's what the list was. That was when Stan learned about the computer spitting out the data. I noticed in the search for William they have mastered the computer data printout. They could never have found him that fast without it.

[SunnyBeBe]

Does anyone recall what kind of accent that Gabriel had when he went to Don's office?   I don't recall it being British, like he normally has, but it didn't stand out to me.  Why do you think Gabriel has an English accent anyway?

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

Let's not forget that Oleg blackmailed Stan for the list of who was being followed and when. I think that's what the list was. That was when Stan learned about the computer spitting out the data. I noticed in the search for William they have mastered the computer data printout. They could never have found him that fast without it.

I think Oleg just got the surveillance reports on himself so that he could use that to blackmail Stan later. 

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Does anyone recall what kind of accent that Gabriel had when he went to Don's office?   I don't recall it being British, like he normally has, but it didn't stand out to me.  Why do you think Gabriel has an English accent anyway?

He does not have an English accent! He talks just like Frank Langella normally talks and he's from Bayonne, N.J.

Edited June 6, 2016 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

53 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Oleg just got the surveillance reports on himself so that he could use that to blackmail Stan later. 

He does not have an English accent! He talks just like Frank Langella normally talks and he's from Bayonne, N.J.

Really?  lol I thought he had an English accent.  I like it.  

[Ina123]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Oleg just got the surveillance reports on himself so that he could use that to blackmail Stan later. 

 

Maybe he did  just get the list on himself but didn't he also say he would see that Nina was protected if he did it? There was a reason Stan did it.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Maybe he did  just get the list on himself but didn't he also say he would see that Nina was protected if he did it? There was a reason Stan did it.

Right, the idea was that Oleg would continue to protect Nina if Stan gave him the surveillance reports on himself. Oleg at that time was pretending that he'd figured out Nina was a double agent and was keeping quiet about it.

[millennium]

On 6/1/2016 at 10:26 PM, ptuscadero said:

OH. MAH. GAHD. I'm so, so sick of Paige. The End.

I was debating the propriety of coming here and posting my fond wish that Philip and Elizabeth find themselves left with no choice but to kill Paige.   Then I saw your post and suddenly felt better about my bad self.

[millennium]

On 6/3/2016 at 11:22 AM, terracool said:

I'm struck by how my best program on TV can also somehow be my worst program at the same time, and the difference is Paige Paige Paige.  I am increasingly disgusted by the whole story line and, at the same time, increasingly bored with it.  While I still mentally think of the show in terms of my favorite show on TV, I find that when I actually watch, it is becoming an uninteresting slog because way too much time is spent on Whiny Paige.  It'll be easy to finish out the season because there's only one episode left, but if next season starts out heading up Whiny Paige Road again, I know I'll lose interest quickly.

While shows like this require some suspension of disbelief for the main storyline, we all expect the background details to ring true.  P&E's demurral to Paige's demands are so discordantly unlikely and unreal that it's hard to keep watching.  Example is them telling her to please, pretty please understand that she doesn't HAVE to work Matthew for them, and that she should please not worry about them.  What would ring more true to many would be for them to tell her that under absolutely no circumstances whatsoever is she to continue her bs amateur-hour questioning Matthew and then start limiting her time with him.  

But the problem isn't "with Paige" or "with the parents".  The problem is with the writers who somehow think that this storyline and character are interesting (or, given that it could have been interesting, is well-executed), because it's not.   They need to broom this nonsense next season.

^ Yup.   The situation is aggravated the fact that the Paige actress isn't very good at her craft, either.   Paige has been the dominant storyline this season, yet the very best episodes were devoted to Martha.    What a shame to lose Martha and be stuck with Paige's open-ended idiocy.

[AliShibaz]

On 2016-06-04 at 11:36 AM, AllyB said:

.......' and I'd probably have been as obvious as all hell. But Paige was under the influence of Tim's religious teaching which was never to lie and to trust him. It's really unsurprising that she confided in him. Ironically the fact he told Alice her secret almost immediately meant that he lost his hold over her.

The fact that it appears Dim did not lose his hold over Paige immediately may well mean that she is taking some time to think things over.

I sure do hope that she puts these two pieces of a puzzle together and realizes that like most Christian pastors, he is really full of shit and not to be trusted with any serious secrets.

I apologize for this extreme opinion to all good Christians. I have had several experiences with Christian ministers in my past which were extremelly disappointing but very valuable insofar as they taught me that people are just people and can never be trusted to be anything more than that. Desipite the fact that they call themselves "priests" or "ministers" or "pastors", they are all vulnterable to human frailties and can all slip and fall and do things that most any human being can do. I would never ever again trust any of them to act like anything more than just human beings. Most of the priests and/or ministers I met truly did have their hearts in a good place. But none were ever anything more than humans and were all susceptible to making errors that included lying, cheating and stealing. Trusting any of them with serious secrets that could get you into big, big trouble can only be undertaken at your own risk. So, beware and proceed at  your own peril!

[SunnyBeBe]

It really is true about pastors.  Oh, the stories......anyway, I'm sure there are some good ones, but, scandals follow many. When Elizabeth was alone with Pastor Tim in his office and he walked around and leaned back on his desk facing her.......it dawned on me....oh yes. I can see this happening.  I hope Paige doesn't find out.  My parent's church lost 3 pastors back to back over a 6 year period ALL TO AFFAIRS with married church members! One of them was stealing too!  But, it seems the show is treating Pastor Tim better these days.  I can't see him or Alice being murdered at this point.  At least not by P & E. 

The problem that Paige creates, unless she really gets on board with the program, is that the options for shutting her up are limited.  If they kill off the character, it might look suspicious to Pastor Tim and Alice (Stan too).  If they send her to boarding school, who will she confide in there? I suppose she could be sent to Russia, but how would her absence be explained to Henry, Pastor Tim, Alice and Stan?   Containing her is problematic, so that's why I think they have no other option than to convert her. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I sure do hope that she puts these two pieces of a puzzle together and realizes that like most Christian pastors, he is really full of shit and not to be trusted with any serious secrets.

It's actually kind of weird how much Paige trusted him--she seems to just have it as part of her personality to long for authority and trust it, which makes some sense given her mother appears to lean that way. I mean, at that age, or even before that, I never had that kind of trust in another adult figure, and that was maybe a combination of personality and that I was never raised to feel that way. But the thing is, I'd assume Paige wasn't either. Philip and Elizabeth would have taught her to respect them as parents but it's not like they'd be teaching her to have blind authority to American leaders, and in fact Paige was driven to church in part because she didn't trust her parents and often didn't respect them too.

So it seems like Paige rejected her parents and then decided that the church must be the place where people were completely honest, so she gave all this trust to Pastor Tim seemingly on the basis of him just giving her a few generic bits of advice ("It's hard having parents...but it's hard being a parent too!") and I guess being the first person to say there were things wrong in the world and he wanted to fix them. It's like she somehow had it in her DNA to trust him as a pastor because the church is recognized as an authority in her culture.

Henry, otoh, hasn't been characterized as that trusting. We had his obvious suspicion of the guy who picked them up hitchhiking and he also tends to directly question all these kinds of ideas, asking exactly what baptism is, saying EST sounds stupid.

 

48 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

The problem that Paige creates, unless she really gets on board with the program, is that the options for shutting her up are limited.  If they kill off the character, it might look suspicious to Pastor Tim and Alice (Stan too).  If they send her to boarding school, who will she confide in there? I suppose she could be sent to Russia, but how would her absence be explained to Henry, Pastor Tim, Alice and Stan?   Containing her is problematic, so that's why I think they have no other option than to convert her. 

 

I don't think there's any question of sending her anywhere. Her parents would never kill her or allow her to be killed. They're not going to send her to boarding school since a) they would never hand her over to someone else and b) as with Pastor Tim, you don't send off somebody who holds a dangerous secret about you away where you can't see what might influence them to blab (again). And they would never send her to Russia because that would be cruel and totally draw attention to her and them in the future if she had some big hole in her history or any record of travel to the Soviet Union, much less spending a lot of time there.

[Chaos Theory]

There is no way P & E would send Paige away especially with what she knows about them and who knows what kind of influences she would face away at school.  Keeping Paige close keeps her safe and allows her parents to keep an eye on her.

Honestly at this point I think it might behoove P&E to introduce Paige to some of their "friends".  People who Paige can form bonds and friendships with.  Right now I think the whole concept is still to abstract for Paige to really understand.  

Hell introduce her to Gabriel. 

[jrlr]

Are Paige and Kimmie supposed to be the same age?