S11.E23: Alpha And Omega

[SueB]

47 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

Excuse you, SueB, but I believe there's a certain "dweeby little angel" who is a contender. ;)

Cas is, IMO, entirely devoted to Dean's happiness and well-being.

Whether it's a shoulder to "cry" on, an ear to listen, a mouth to give support/encouragement/affirmation, a hand holding a blade to assist in battle, an arm to give/receive comfort and/or welcome, a body to throw onto the sacrificial pile, or a companion for all eternity...everything Cas has, he willingly gives to/for Dean. Cas's home, fellow angels, hell even Cas' own life, are all willingly thrown aside by Cas for Dean. 

I see Cas's attitude/behaviour towards Dean as just all encompassing, completely unconditional love. *sniff*  ;)

I stand corrected!  You are right, Cas has that unconditional love.  And I think what Amara may not get is that even if Mary shows up now, Dean will NEVER be able to just "let go" and not worry.  That  sense of safety was ripped away from him as a child and it can't be replaced.  Also, I suspect that Amara pulled out Lucifer, on some instinctual level, and killed ONLY Lucifer because Cas is Dean's friend.  But I don't think Amara understand the profound bond like we do.  And I think Dean still takes a certain responsibility FOR Cas (providing the role of friend, brother, and occasional mentor) that is different than a child with a Mother. But Mary can't go back to a Mother's role for adult Dean like she would have had for wee Dean.   Still, I think that somehow the picture of a protective Mother holding her child is what Amara saw in his room in the bunker and that's what she was trying to give Dean.  

Edited May 27, 2016 by SueB

[NoWillToResist]

51 minutes ago, SueB said:

 I suspect that Amara pulled out Lucifer, on some instinctual level, and killed ONLY Lucifer because Cas is Dean's friend.  But I don't think Amara understand the profound bond like we do. 

I would love to have known what she was thinking when she put her hand on Cas' chest and was then able to appear to Dean. What does it mean??? :D Did she pick up on how much they meant to each other and so she later spared Cas to spare Dean pain?

And on a side note: bless the faithful Destiel fans. I fear they are in for a world of disappointment, but they are not deterred by the 'brother' comment in the finale. Because this past season we are 2/2 on current Dean contradicting a much-used prior stance he took ("I don't do shorts" "no chick flick moments"), some are all "hm, wonder what other prior stance Dean could do a 180 on..."  :D 

Edited May 27, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Binns]

@SueB I love the spec that the upcoming season might be like Buffy telling off the Watchers Council. I totally could buy into that. I wouldn't have minded the character, storyline setup, etc. as much if she was just a tag at the end- I think I just was more bothered by all the time she took up that could have been spent on much better things. 

 

Rewatched last night and it reaffirmed my satisfaction with the characterizations of Sam and Dean especially. J2 did great jobs. As I've said before, their actions showed great character growth. I hope that carries over. I wouldn't mind next season not having a big mytharc and more MoTW episodes to showcase their new maturity. Please, Lord, no brotherly angst. 

I confess I didn't even think "outside of space/time" with Mary but it makes great sense and on rewatch I totally see it now, especially with the lack of cell signal and Mary being in her nightie. At the time I just figured he was out in the middle of nowhere. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, NoWillToResist said:

t they are not deterred by the 'brother' comment in the finale. Because this past season we are 2/2 on current Dean contradicting a much-used prior stance he took ("I don't do shorts" "no chick flick moments"), some are all "hm, wonder what other prior stance Dean could do a 180 on..."  :D 

 

Those aren't 180s from my perspective. If anything was a 180, which I don't think it was but more of Dean's character progression, is that Dean HIMSELF admitted to Sam what Sam (and the audience) already knew about Dean; that Dean enjoys a lot of things he would never admit to others or even himself . He was SO into Dr Sexy, M.D. a night time soap, that he knew right away all the characters and that Dr. Sexy, his crush, wore cowboy boots and NOT white sneakers. Sam mocked Dean for watching Dr. Sexy and did it by questioning Dean's masculinity by asking if he was watching it because he was going through menopause.   Dean watched Dirty Dancing and watched Black Swan and he referenced Siegfried before he talked about the two hot chicks LOL.

I realize none of those things mean that Dean is a closeted bisexual or that Dean is even Cas-Sexual but are just examples of  Dean obfuscating things or things he has trouble disclosing for fear of ridicule by those he loves or  because it might not be what he thinks is expected of him by say, John, or Bobby, maybe even Mary. But now that he's facing the end of the world. he can admit things that maybe he's been sitting on for a long time or that he didn't really even know about himself yet. I don't think he gave much thought to his eternal resting place until he was there because IMO he always figured he was going to die in battle and it didn't matter where his ashes were left. But now here he is in the moment and he's letting some his bravado go.

Man, do I love Dean Winchester. What a great fucking character.

**************************************

Another thought I had upon rewatch. Dean wanting to visit Mary's gravesite and the wink.

What was that about? It was almost a knowing wink. What gives on that?

I dunno I have to rewatch everything from when he took the souls to the end. Because I'm just wondering if Mary was one of the souls that Billie put into the soul bomb, was that her winking at herself?

Edited May 27, 2016 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Another thought I had upon rewatch. Dean wanting to visit Mary's gravesite and the wink.

What was that about? It was almost a knowing wink. What gives on that?

I dunno I have to rewatch everything from when he took the souls to the end. Because I'm just wondering if Mary was one of the souls that Billie put into the soul bomb, was that her winking at herself?

 

Maybe Dean was winking at her in a "see you soon, mum" kind of way. Oh. Now I made myself really fucking sad. :(

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

Maybe Dean was winking at her in a "see you soon, mum" kind of way. Oh. Now I made myself really fucking sad. :(

I thought about that but as far as Dean knew, Mary wasn't in Heaven and she wasn't in Hell, and Dean probably didn't think he'd go to Heaven anyway so I hope he didn't think he'd see her in Hell. :(

[catrox14]

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 8:04 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

lso I was pretty much correct. Sam didn't really have anything to do with the resolution of this, so that's kind of disappointing. And worse, he thinks Dean is dead and that it's his fault that Dean is dead... Basically Sam thinks he got to have Dean for about a year at the expense of a thousand or so innocent people and then Dean had to die anyway. That is if Sam isn't dead or in a coma. Or going to be driven crazy in some isolation cell and/or being experimented o

I completely disagree that Sam didn't have a role in the resolution. He is the one that rallied the lazy ass ne-er-do-wells to stop embibing and start thinking of an answer. He's the one that pushed Chuck to admit he might have a way to kill Amara.  He had to overcome his  best/worst instinct to stop Dean from going through with it. 

Upon rewatch I think Amara sent Dean back to the night Mary was killed. I can see a scenario where Dean will be faced with the ultimate test of his not fucking with the Natural Order again. If the Natural Order was for Mary to die that night..with Dean knowing all that has happened, what will he do?

And I think Dean's reaction upon seeing Mary was not a happy one at all. Not just shock but 'OH FUCK this is not a good thing.'

[MysteryGuest]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Upon rewatch I think Amara sent Dean back to the night Mary was killed. I can see a scenario where Dean will be faced with the ultimate test of his not fucking with the Natural Order again.

Well, if that's the case, then fuck Amara.  She's done him no favors by making him re-live that.  She seemed genuine when she said she was going to give him something, so I can't imagine she'd screw with him like that.  I haven't a clue what their plan is for Mary, but forcing Dean to re-live her death, or potentially have to choose her death again, seems beyond cruel for someone who was trying to thank him.  I guess if I had to choose something, I'd like for him to be able to actually speak with her again, and then to ensure that she gets to heaven.  Maybe she's been in some limbo state, or the Empty, or even hell for that matter, and now he can know that she's at peace.  I just can't see her sticking around and hunting with them.

[ZennyKenny]

Now that I've read some of the responses, I'm leaning towards the "Dean got taken back to the night Mary died" theory myself. It was nighttime for one. So either he got transported somewhere where it was night, or he was wandering around for a long time. If it's the latter, I have to ask why in the world would Amara place Mary so far away from Dean? And the second thing is that they made a point to show Dean not getting a reception, which they also made a point to do in that one Back To The Future-type time travel episode.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, if that's the case, then fuck Amara.  She's done him no favors by making him re-live that.  She seemed genuine when she said she was going to give him something, so I can't imagine she'd screw with him like that.  I haven't a clue what their plan is for Mary, but forcing Dean to re-live her death, or potentially have to choose her death again, seems beyond cruel for someone who was trying to thank him.  I guess if I had to choose something, I'd like for him to be able to actually speak with her again, and then to ensure that she gets to heaven.  Maybe she's been in some limbo state, or the Empty, or even hell for that matter, and now he can know that she's at peace.  I just can't see her sticking around and hunting with them.

Oh I don't think Amara did it to hurt Dean. IMO she saw the picture of Dean and Mary and IMO she sensed that Dean misses his mother just like she missed her brother. Her loneliness was solved because she was reunited with Chuck and she thinks that whatever loneliness Dean has would be fixed by reuniting him with Mary.

What she doesn't understand is that as human beings we have to learn to live with grief and permanent loss because we should not bring back the dead. The Winchesters have learned "What's dead should stay dead" because of how it screws with everything else. 

She thinks it will help Dean because it helped her but she didn't think about all the ramifications that happen when "the dead don't stay dead'. 

[millennium]

My problem with Toni is that she was a red herring.

Judging by the manner and timing of her introduction, I assumed she would jet across the pond and show up in the proverbial nick with a previously unknown solution to the God/Amara problem.

That's the expectation it created.   So when the Darkness crisis was resolved in one cosmic Dr. Phil moment, I felt "wait, that can't be all.   What about Toni?"  And then, from out of left field, Toni appears and shoots Sam.   What???  Not to mention that Sam's bravado was so horribly cliche "I don't think you'll shoot me."  How many times in how many shows have we seen that?   Lazy, lazy writing.

[MysteryGuest]

That whole scene was poorly thought out.  She was all bravado one minute, and then seemed absurdly afraid of Sam the next...it made no sense.  Honestly, they really could have left her introduction go until next season.  I know we wouldn't get our cliff hanger, but did we really need one?  I'd have preferred to see Sam, Cas and Dean reunited.  Give them that moment to absorb all that had happened in the last week or so between God's appearance and the almost end of the world.  Give us a few good scenes with Cas and the boys just reconnecting.  Then in the season opener, they could introduce the MOL British Division.  It made no sense for her to leave her son to fly to the states, then drive to Kansas, all while she's pretty much convinced the world is ending.  For supposed brainiacs, they're not very smart.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

That whole scene was poorly thought out.  She was all bravado one minute, and then seemed absurdly afraid of Sam the next...it made no sense.  Honestly, they really could have left her introduction go until next season.  I know we wouldn't get our cliff hanger, but did we really need one?  I'd have preferred to see Sam, Cas and Dean reunited.  Give them that moment to absorb all that had happened in the last week or so between God's appearance and the almost end of the world.  Give us a few good scenes with Cas and the boys just reconnecting.  Then in the season opener, they could introduce the MOL British Division.  It made no sense for her to leave her son to fly to the states, then drive to Kansas, all while she's pretty much convinced the world is ending.  For supposed brainiacs, they're not very smart.

The cliffhanger should have been Sam and Cas get back to the Bunker, this chick says nothing, just blasts Cas out, Sam immediately draws his weapon and they are in a standoff. Sam advances and it fades to black and we hear a gunshot. We never see her introduction at all. Just have her show up. Then Dean emerges from the bushes and he sees Mary. End.

That's 10 minutes that could have been spent on so many other things.

--another minute on the ghost hunt

--2 minutes of Dean saying goodbye to his fucking room. Did he get Mary's picture to keep with him when he blew up? What did he do with his gun? Did he have it on him? Did he look at Mary's picture and then decide to go see her and maybe leave that picture at her grave?

--For a moment of comic relief ROADTRIP to Mary's grave. That's Dean, Sam, Cas, Rowena and Chuck all piled in the Impala, and I guess Crowley. Was he just sitting in the backseat? There is some confusion in my mind because according SuperWiki the gravesite is actually in Greenville, Illinois.  I thought it was in Lawrence. That's either a 3 hour ROADTRIP to Lawrence from the Bunker or a longer drive to Illinois. Unless Chuck zapped them all to the grave. What about Crowley saying goodbye to his partner in bromance? Did Crowley just hang back at the Bunker or was he waiting in the car? Because Crowley was in the car when they all trundled to the Lazy Shag after Dean said his goodbyes. If Chuck didn't zap them, did they stop to pick up Crowley? Did Crowley just zap himself into the backseat??  I REALLY NEED TO KNOW THIS. Because dammit a roadtrip scene would have just been the best thing.

--2 more minutes on Sam coping with Dean's decision

--A moment for Cas and Chuck?? 

Sigh.

[millennium]

I think next season would have been more interesting if they brought John Winchester back from the dead and let Sam and Dean chew on that for awhile.    Seems to me there are more things they need to resolve with their father than their mother.   The arc could start out contentious but then move towards resolution as Sam and Dean better understand why their father made the decisions he did, and for Winchester senior to acknowledge the consequences of those decisions and appreciate the impact it had on his sons.   That's the season I'd rather see.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

--A moment for Cas and Chuck?? 

Yes, that was really odd. Cas has struggled with God`s absence and what he did in that absence a lot, I mean he tried to be "God" for a while even. And yet the characters never interacted. Not even when they were all sitting in that bar and did nothing. Metatron got an entire episode with God. Lucifer got his scenes. Cas doesn`t even visible acknowledge that a) God is back and b) God is dying.

Him and Michael were the angels I felt got the short end of the stick this year. Amara spent billions of years in imprisonment and could be fine in the end. Lucifer spend eons in the cage and is fine, Michael went crazy after just a few? Don`t like the implication. God is all "eh, don`t even bother" about him last episode. Wasn`t he the first archangel God created? Not the first thing obviously with Leviathans and whatever came before that, that Amara destroyed but the first angel. And yet no care in the world.   

So cutting another stupid Lady Toni scene could have made room for at least Cas getting some small moment to address the Chuck of it all. There was so much stuff with her we didn`t need. I get that Dabb couldn`t wait to run away from the current storyline and bring in what HE wants. Which is apparently posh people and secret societies. Bloodlines was probably a better indication on where his interests lie than anyone thought. 

But that is bad form. Even if he couldn`t care less about the God/Amara story, he should have been professional enough to give their final conclusion the gravitas it deserved. And that included letting that story breathe on its own. One last time. Not taking 10 whole minutes already to force in his toys. That`s petty. 

[catrox14]

Yeah I mean my head!canon is that Cas was just done with God and that his focus was on Dean during their last moments. Maybe he thought he would have another chance. I dunno, it's weird but I can head!canon it although it's unsatisfying.

[La Tortuga]

Amara eats souls to gain strength.

Chuck says her weakness is light, and souls are made of light.

Dean is sent to Amara holding hundreds of thousands of souls.

They were going to kill Amara by... overfeeding her?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, millennium said:

I think next season would have been more interesting if they brought John Winchester back from the dead and let Sam and Dean chew on that for awhile.    Seems to me there are more things they need to resolve with their father than their mother.   The arc could start out contentious but then move towards resolution as Sam and Dean better understand why their father made the decisions he did, and for Winchester senior to acknowledge the consequences of those decisions and appreciate the impact it had on his sons.   That's the season I'd rather see.

Oh I can't WAIT for Dean to have it out with John. I think Sam got his closure with John in s2 mostly. But IMO Dean has some shit to say to John

2 minutes ago, La Tortuga said:

Amara eats souls to gain strength.

Chuck says her weakness is light, and souls are made of light.

Dean is sent to Amara holding hundreds of thousands of souls.

They were going to kill Amara by... overfeeding her?

LOL I was wondering about this myself. Like it just was so weird. I still don't get it.

[call me ishmael]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I can't WAIT for Dean to have it out with John. I think Sam got his closure with John in s2 mostly. But IMO Dean has some shit to say to John

LOL I was wondering about this myself. Like it just was so weird. I still don't get it.

 

11 minutes ago, La Tortuga said:

Amara eats souls to gain strength.

Chuck says her weakness is light, and souls are made of light.

Dean is sent to Amara holding hundreds of thousands of souls.

They were going to kill Amara by... overfeeding her?

I think that that is actually right.  They were trying to place too much energy inside of her so that she couldn't contain it all.  Think Monty Python I guess.

[MysteryGuest]

Yeah, I think Dean's only recently come to realize just how much John Winchester fucked up his life.  He was so caught up in being the good soldier before.  But I think, if given the opportunity, he'd have plenty to say to John today.  

8 minutes ago, La Tortuga said:

Amara eats souls to gain strength.

Chuck says her weakness is light, and souls are made of light.

Dean is sent to Amara holding hundreds of thousands of souls.

They were going to kill Amara by... overfeeding her?

Amara is the Darkness, and tremendous light is what could kill her.  Per Cas, each soul is equivalent to 100 suns, so multiply that times the couple hundred thousand souls that Billie trapped for them, and that's going to create a pretty damn bright light when it explodes.  Enough to take out the Darkness.

[shang yiet]

Cut out the unnecessary Lady Toni/pigeon lady parts and make room for

1.Sam and God have a meaningful conversation

2.Longer Sam/Dean talk about that little thing about Dean being dead forever

3. Sam/Amara - he released her after all and she can't be bothered to say thank you

Sam was leader of Team Free Will here. Without him, everyone would be sitting around whining and feeling sorry for themselves till kingdom come.

Oh and please somebody give Cas a bitchslap. No matter what horrible thing he does, he's instantly forgiven by Sam and Dean. So releasing Lucifer this time is the right thing to do and so brave of Cas and Sam would have done the same. (Well, he didn't).

No need to bring in pigeon lady so Amara can be touched by a  stranger's story. Just tell her Sam and Dean's story. If that doesn't touch her, then I don't know what would.

Edited May 28, 2016 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yeah, I think Dean's only recently come to realize just how much John Winchester fucked up his life.  He was so caught up in being the good soldier before.  But I think, if given the opportunity, he'd have plenty to say to John today.  

Amara is the Darkness, and tremendous light is what could kill her.  Per Cas, each soul is equivalent to 100 suns, so multiply that times the couple hundred thousand souls that Billie trapped for them, and that's going to create a pretty damn bright light when it explodes.  Enough to take out the Darkness.

So, if each soul is 100 suns how the fuck did Dean not blow up just by having them inside him? I'm thinking maybe he really still is Michael's Chosen Vessel.  :)

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So, if each soul is 100 suns how the fuck did Dean not blow up just by having them inside him? I'm thinking maybe he really still is Michael's Chosen Vessel.  :)

Well, I didn't say it was plausible, LOL.  Cas lasted for a little while with all of those souls inside him, so who knows.  Dean was only given an hour, more or less, according to Rowena.  

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, I didn't say it was plausible, LOL.  Cas lasted for a little while with all of those souls inside him, so who knows.  Dean was only given an hour, more or less, according to Rowena.  

I wasn't questioning your interpretation just trying to understand in the show how Dean could handle it.

I forgot about her hour thing. Which okay then how they heck did they get from the Bunker to Mary's grave. Dammit I want that roadtrip. Maybe Chuck zapped them only part way LOL

So if Dean wasn't actually successful at blowing up Amara he was going to die either way wasn't he?

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't questioning your interpretation just trying to understand in the show how Dean could handle it.

I forgot about her hour thing. Which okay then how they heck did they get from the Bunker to Mary's grave. Dammit I want that roadtrip. Maybe Chuck zapped them only part way LOL

So if Dean wasn't actually successful at blowing up Amara he was going to die either way wasn't he?

1) Crowley WAS at the graveside... he said nothing, I think.

2) Yeah, Dean was toast until God came over and took back the souls.  Which, BTW, was pretty poignant IMO.  He's just trying to save the universe here and after the two made up he didn't raise his hands and say "Hey, I'm still a bomb!"  I mean, Chuck DID get to him pretty quick but Dean didn't even ask for help. Although, TBH, I'm a little surprised he didn't say "thanks" to God for defusing him.  Was he stunned or just not going to ever say "thank you" to God?  IDK.  He didn't see pissed at him... I'd be interested in other's interpretation.

3) The road trip would have been GOLD.  My headcanon is that she's in Kansas.  And God was saving his energy to zap Dean to Amara so they drove.  Which puts Dean in the front seat, Cas riding in the center, Sam in the passenger. Rowena, Crowley & God in back.  Now ideally, you'd have Rowena in the middle in the front because... petite... but she was pretty much stuck like glue on God.  It would have been entertaining.  At least they could have piled in and had 'grumpy Dean' threaten to pull the car over if Rowena and Cas didn't stop bickering.

[MysteryGuest]

I assumed that God zapped them all to the cemetery, since it's not just around the corner.   Then zapped Dean to meet with Amara, and the rest of them took off in the car, so maybe he zapped Baby around, too.  They weren't really clear on that.  But since Dean was only given an hour before exploding, I can't imagine they wasted time driving to the cemetery.  It's those pesky continuity errors that can drive you crazy!!

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

.  Was he stunned or just not going to ever say "thank you" to God?  IDK.  He didn't see pissed at him... I'd be interested in other's interpretation.

Seems to me Chuck was the one that needed to say Thank You. I mean Dean cleaned up his fucking mess...again. 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, SueB said:

1) Crowley WAS at the graveside... he said nothing, I think

Where was he? I don't remember seeing him in a background shot or anything.

[MysteryGuest]

Crowley was standing by Rowena at the cemetery.  He didn't say anything, but he was in a few shots.  When Dean was talking about his funeral plans, Crowley was next to Sam.

[SueB]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems to me Chuck was the one that needed to say Thank You. I mean Dean cleaned up his fucking mess...again. 

You're not wrong.  There was an amazing lack of mutual gratitude and yet I think both were definitely working on the same side and glad it worked out.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Crowley was standing by Rowena at the cemetery.  He didn't say anything, but he was in a few shots.  When Dean was talking about his funeral plans, Crowley was next to Sam.

Oh wow. I never even noticed I was so focused on Dean 

Well okay that makes more sense. And yes I need that damn roadtrip scene. LOL

[KirkB]

Man, now I want to see the road trip too.

If there is NOT a deleted scene or a blooper with all of them in Baby somewhere I will be disappointed.

Maybe I should write the scene myself....

[Pete Martell]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

That whole scene was poorly thought out.  She was all bravado one minute, and then seemed absurdly afraid of Sam the next...it made no sense.  Honestly, they really could have left her introduction go until next season.  I know we wouldn't get our cliff hanger, but did we really need one?  I'd have preferred to see Sam, Cas and Dean reunited.  Give them that moment to absorb all that had happened in the last week or so between God's appearance and the almost end of the world.  Give us a few good scenes with Cas and the boys just reconnecting.  Then in the season opener, they could introduce the MOL British Division.  It made no sense for her to leave her son to fly to the states, then drive to Kansas, all while she's pretty much convinced the world is ending.  For supposed brainiacs, they're not very smart.

I think the idea of the cliffhanger made sense, but the way it was tacked on after various shots of Sam, Cas, Rowena and Crowley sitting in a bar meant there really wasn't much time. And then she basically got an expository scene and a silly cliffhanger that you'd think the show would know better than to do because of all the hate Bela got. I don't even think she shot Sam (I'm pretty sure it was a warning shot), but of course many will think she did. So now this woman, whose backstory was already somewhat confusing (I guess she blames Sam and Dean for all the ills of the world and figured she might as well jump in before it gets even worse), is just remembered for Sam and a gunshot.

To be honest, so much of the interaction between Sam, Dean and Cas in the last few years has felt so stilted, I don't mind more of them on their own, so I don't mind the idea of having Sam on his own with this woman, but it should have been done another way. Maybe have Sam walking out of the bar, and he sees a woman being attacked, he saves her, then she pulls a gun on him, and we see him next in some place, she walks in and introduces herself - end scene.

The whole shooting thing was just silly, because obviously he's not going to die, nor is he going to spend various episodes recovering from a serious gunshot wound, so all they got out of it was yet another female character burned on the funeral pyre - and this one they tried to take pains to show a more sympathetic side of (they even had her looking a bit sad when he said Dean was dead), so it really makes no sense. 

[Pete Martell]

3 hours ago, shang yiet said:

Oh and please somebody give Cas a bitchslap. No matter what horrible thing he does, he's instantly forgiven by Sam and Dean. So releasing Lucifer this time is the right thing to do and so brave of Cas and Sam would have done the same. (Well, he didn't).

No need to bring in pigeon lady so Amara can be touched by a  stranger's story. Just tell her Sam and Dean's story. If that doesn't touch her, then I don't know what would.

What I got out of the Dean and Cas scene is they were both mostly tired and Dean didn't really have it in him to talk about right or wrong. He knew why Cas did what he did, he knows Cas still holds his opinion as important, so he said what Cas needed to hear. I don't think Cas really believed it was the right thing to do, but I think he also knew what Dean was trying to do, so he accepted it. 

The scene with the old woman and Amara was a hoary old cliche but I actually liked it. Sometimes it does take a stranger to make you see sense. I was mostly glad to see that for once, the average human actually had a purpose on SPN and was presented as a real, everyday person, going through life as best she could.

[shang yiet]

Nothing sympathetic about Lady Toni so far, PeteMartell. I'm sure she's got a sob story ready for next season but coming in and blaming Sam for all the ills in the world is so not making her endearing in any way.

What Cas needed to hear was 'You screwed up' and a blistering speech from both Sam and Dean that would burn his ears off.

I know what you're trying to say about the average human but I would rather she gets inspired by the two not-so-average Winchesters. This is supposed to be their story after all. Why should pigeon lady affect her more than our two heroes?

[Pete Martell]

13 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Nothing sympathetic about Lady Toni so far, PeteMartell. I'm sure she's got a sob story ready for next season but coming in and blaming Sam for all the ills in the world is so not making her endearing in any way.

What Cas needed to hear was 'You screwed up' and a blistering speech from both Sam and Dean that would burn his ears off.

I know what you're trying to say about the average human but I would rather she gets inspired by the two not-so-average Winchesters. This is supposed to be their story after all. Why should pigeon lady affect her more than our two heroes?

I think Dean did change her mind in the end. If not for his speech she was going to let the world die because she was too hurt by everything with Chuck. It was just that someone who had no idea who she was was able to get the ball rolling. 

I see what you're saying about Cas and what was said to him. I know a lot of people were unhappy with it. I guess I feel like Cas is going to do what he feels is right, as he repeatedly does, and nothing Dean and Sam can say could really change that. It felt to me like both saying what the other one wanted to hear. 

I agree that Toni was not really sympathetic - she broke into Sam's home and held him at gunpoint - but I think they were sort of trying, with the baby, and a few other moments, like the difference in how she was with Sam compared to someone like Bela in the same situation. I think it's just they don't really know how to write most female characters. That and after 11 seasons the idea of someone storming in because the Winchesters are a danger to the world doesn't have the same spark it might have had about 4-5 years ago. I'd think anyone left alive would either respect the Winchesters, or steer well clear. 

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I completely disagree that Sam didn't have a role in the resolution. He is the one that rallied the lazy ass ne-er-do-wells to stop embibing and start thinking of an answer. He's the one that pushed Chuck to admit he might have a way to kill Amara.  He had to overcome his  best/worst instinct to stop Dean from going through with it.

I didn't say that Sam didn't do anything, because all of what you said is true. It's just that most of what Sam did do didn't end up being very useful in the end, because the bomb wasn't used. The resolution was Dean talking Amara out of destroying the world, and Sam didn't have a role in that. Sam didn't even know that that's what happened.... So, well at least Sam thinks he played a part for now.

I've seen so many complaints that Dean was basically just on the sidelines during "Swan Song" - something I disagree with, but if I look sideways, I can sort of see it - but at least Dean was actually there. And he brought the Impala and the emotional support which in my opinion was a critical ingredient. Now I sort of get why Sam couldn't be there this time: partly it being supposed* emotional growth on his part and the other part being bomb so he'd be killed and Dean wouldn't want that, but still, a way for Sam to have provided some emotional support somehow might've been nice. (Even the amulet - as divisive as it might be - could've played a role. Since it was brought back - why not? Amara could've even gotten some family vibes off it or something.)

Now I did change my mind a little bit after thinking about it when I decided that the bomb was necessary as leverage, so Sam had a part in getting the bomb made. Though truthfully I don't remember whose actual idea the bomb itself even was, so there were a lot of other people involved in planning and making the bomb as well - Billie, Rowena, Castiel, Chuck, and I think even Crowley.

But I wouldn't even care at all if Sam hadn't caused the Amara problem to begin with. And everyone who counted (including Dean) agreed it was his fault - even God. And then 1000+ people got killed in the crossfire - thanks for that little detail, writers. So because of that, for me, it's a little annoying that Sam's main contribution was - ironically - guilty cheerleader... and helping to make a bomb that was only used as leverage. Convincing Amara to spare the world was all Dean with a side dish of pigeon lady.

The one saving grace about the cheerleader role is that getting everyone to try anyway in the face of overwhelming odds is a Sam character trait. He did it in season 2, tried in season 3, also in season 5 and he did it again at the end of season 6 / beginning of season 7. The writers seemed to forget about that trait a bit in season 8 and 9, and seemed to decide that it was a bad thing in season 10, since rallying the troops there went terribly, awfully wrong, so I am at least happy that it was back and that this time it was a good thing and not turned into a disaster like it was in season 10. So there is that.

* I say "supposed," because so far I'm still not sure of this show's stance on that whole thing, and there seems to be a double standard at times when it comes to that.

[Pete Martell]

I guess you could say he also kept Chuck going...I'm not really sure if it was intentional, but it was oddly moving symbolism that he had to be physical and emotional support for the god he'd believed in and had taken Sam so much for granted in return.

[AwesomO4000]

I did like that aspect, Pete Martell.

And you're also correct in Chod taking Sam for granted - especially with the whole Sam being destined to be Lucifer's vessel thing, because how crappy is that?

[catrox14]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't say that Sam didn't do anything, because all of what you said is true. It's just that most of what Sam did do didn't end up being very useful in the end, because the bomb wasn't used. The resolution was Dean talking Amara out of destroying the world, and Sam didn't have a role in that. Sam didn't even know that that's what happened.... So, well at least Sam thinks he played a part for now.

Sam was the catalyst to get everything moving. Rowena was content to die holding Chuck's hand. Crowley didn't give a shit anymore. Cas was worried about Dean and Dean decided to get drunk. LOL Sam is literally the only one who didn't check out.

Dean went from Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument to God's Big Ass Soul Bomb and IMO he didn't influence Amara anymore than Amara seeing the plants dying and the old lady speaking of loving your family even if you hate them. Dean basically repeated what they elderly lady said.

[Pete Martell]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam was the catalyst to get everything moving. Rowena was content to die holding Chuck's hand. Crowley didn't give a shit anymore. Cas was worried about Dean and Dean decided to get drunk. LOL Sam is literally the only one who didn't check out.

Dean went from Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument to God's Big Ass Soul Bomb and IMO he didn't influence Amara anymore than Amara seeing the plants dying and the old lady speaking of loving your family even if you hate them. Dean basically repeated what they elderly lady said.

But if he hadn't been willing to make the sacrifice in the first place, Amara never would have made the decision. She was content to stay on her own and just watch everything die in a cosmic emo fashion. Dean made the sacrifice and then he said what Amara needed to hear.  

[SueB]

17 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't say that Sam didn't do anything, because all of what you said is true. It's just that most of what Sam did do didn't end up being very useful in the end, because the bomb wasn't used. The resolution was Dean talking Amara out of destroying the world, and Sam didn't have a role in that. Sam didn't even know that that's what happened.... So, well at least Sam thinks he played a part for now.

I've seen so many complaints that Dean was basically just on the sidelines during "Swan Song" - something I disagree with, but if I look sideways, I can sort of see it - but at least Dean was actually there. And he brought the Impala and the emotional support which in my opinion was a critical ingredient. Now I sort of get why Sam couldn't be there this time: partly it being supposed* emotional growth on his part and the other part being bomb so he'd be killed and Dean wouldn't want that, but still, a way for Sam to have provided some emotional support somehow might've been nice. (Even the amulet - as divisive as it might be - could've played a role. Since it was brought back - why not? Amara could've even gotten some family vibes off it or something.)

Now I did change my mind a little bit after thinking about it when I decided that the bomb was necessary as leverage, so Sam had a part in getting the bomb made. Though truthfully I don't remember whose actual idea the bomb itself even was, so there were a lot of other people involved in planning and making the bomb as well - Billie, Rowena, Castiel, Chuck, and I think even Crowley.

But I wouldn't even care at all if Sam hadn't caused the Amara problem to begin with. And everyone who counted (including Dean) agreed it was his fault - even God. And then 1000+ people got killed in the crossfire - thanks for that little detail, writers. So because of that, for me, it's a little annoying that Sam's main contribution was - ironically - guilty cheerleader... and helping to make a bomb that was only used as leverage. Convincing Amara to spare the world was all Dean with a side dish of pigeon lady.

The one saving grace about the cheerleader role is that getting everyone to try anyway in the face of overwhelming odds is a Sam character trait. He did it in season 2, tried in season 3, also in season 5 and he did it again at the end of season 6 / beginning of season 7. The writers seemed to forget about that trait a bit in season 8 and 9, and seemed to decide that it was a bad thing in season 10, since rallying the troops there went terribly, awfully wrong, so I am at least happy that it was back and that this time it was a good thing and not turned into a disaster like it was in season 10. So there is that.

* I say "supposed," because so far I'm still not sure of this show's stance on that whole thing, and there seems to be a double standard at times when it comes to that.

Goose, Gander. 

I loved and admired Dean's role in Swan Song. I loved and admired Sam's role in Alpha and Omega. 

And I think 'guilty cheerleader' is a bit unfair. He wasn't cheerleading he was LEADING. Dean folded up his tent and Sam's all 'oh Hell NO'. And dragged an answer out of God. Who didn't want to have Amara killed. But Sam's force of will got everyone to team up and get the job done. 

And of course Jared's performance was the one that brought the emotional gut punch for me. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

But if he hadn't been willing to make the sacrifice in the first place, Amara never would have made the decision. She was content to stay on her own and just watch everything die in a cosmic emo fashion. Dean made the sacrifice and then he said what Amara needed to hear.  

He was willing to die but his willingness to die is not what made her reconsider her destruction path IMO. She was already reconsidering when she saw that her touch was killing the roses. That's why she didn't feed the pigeons.  That had nothing to do with Dean because that happened before Dean got there.  She saw another person that had lived a long life. 

IMO Dean was there to say "Go ahead and tell Chuck what you already want to tell him".  I mean that's how it seemed to me. YMMV

I look at it this way:

Sam was the Project Manager

Rowena built the weapon

Sam, Dean and Billie armed the weapon

Cas stood by Dean as long as Dean would let him and Cas was there to look after Sam once Dean left for war.

Dean was the weapon.

The pigeon lady was the catalyst for Amara to reconsider her relationship with Chuck

[Pete Martell]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

He was willing to die but his willingness to die is not what made her reconsider her destruction path IMO. She was already reconsidering when she saw that her touch was killing the roses. That's why she didn't feed the pigeons.  That had nothing to do with Dean because that happened before Dean got there.  She saw another person that had lived a long life. 

IMO Dean was there to say "Go ahead and tell Chuck what you already want to tell him".  I mean that's how it seemed to me. YMMV

But she was still inert throughout the process. She might have had a doubt or two or felt sad, but she wasn't actually doing anything. She knew Chuck was dying and she could have teleported him there immediately, as she did after her talk with Dean. Dean had to not only be the one that went, but he had to help convince her that her doubts were right and to get over her anger and pain enough to meet Chuck - something that the pigeon lady couldn't have done, because Dean and Sam had a relationship that was closer to what Amara had with Chuck.

I'm not really trying to change your mind, just saying I thought Dean played a key role in preventing the whole thing. It's one of the reasons Amara was grateful to him in the end. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

I'm not really trying to change your mind, just saying I thought Dean played a key role in preventing the whole thing. It's one of the reasons Amara was grateful to him in the end. 

I didn't say he had no role. He influenced her final decision to the extent that she felt it was okay for her to reconcile with Chuck but if she hadn't already been influenced by pigeon lady she would have taken out Dean the moment she knew he had again betrayed her by being the actual bomb.

[Pete Martell]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say he had no role. He influenced her final decision to the extent that she felt it was okay for her to reconcile with Chuck but if she hadn't already been influenced by pigeon lady she would have taken out Dean the moment she knew he had again betrayed her by being the actual bomb.

I'm not sure she would have taken him out even then, as she didn't seem all that bothered. I think even without the pigeon lady she would have understood and listened (whether she would have agreed, I don't know). But I guess it's just my speculation anyway.

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam was the catalyst to get everything moving. Rowena was content to die holding Chuck's hand. Crowley didn't give a shit anymore. Cas was worried about Dean and Dean decided to get drunk. LOL Sam is literally the only one who didn't check out.

Dean went from Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument to God's Big Ass Soul Bomb and IMO he didn't influence Amara anymore than Amara seeing the plants dying and the old lady speaking of loving your family even if you hate them. Dean basically repeated what they elderly lady said.

Hee - well at least he wasn't also going to watch cartoon porn like last time.

But I disagree that Dean didn't have an influence on Amara. For one as I said, Dean had the leverage, and the old lady might've brought it up first, but she didn't have a connection with Amara like Dean did. And I need a rewatch - I'm currently out of town and can't until I get back - but I'm pretty sure that Dean also talked about the merits of the world and let Amara know how Chuck felt - which was important to Amara.

And yes to everything Pete Martell said above in both posts.

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

Goose, Gander. 

I loved and admired Dean's role in Swan Song. I loved and admired Sam's role in Alpha and Omega. 

And I think 'guilty cheerleader' is a bit unfair. He wasn't cheerleading he was LEADING. Dean folded up his tent and Sam's all 'oh Hell NO'. And dragged an answer out of God. Who didn't want to have Amara killed. But Sam's force of will got everyone to team up and get the job done. 

And of course Jared's performance was the one that brought the emotional gut punch for me. 

Actually I agree with all of this. I have often talked about my love of "Swan Song" and Dean's role in it. And I liked Sam's role here, as well. To me "cheerleader" in and of itself is not a derogatory term. Real life cheerleaders try to keep the crowd in the game even when the team is way behind. It's a sometimes thankless task, but - at least in college football - the crowd sometimes can make a difference if they yell loud enough and distract the opposing team. I've seen it happen. I've seen it help win games that seemed lost. And I've seen cheerleaders be the initiative for that to happen.

The "guilty cheerleader" is a reference to what has been seen as a support role in the past... a stance I disagree with actually. The "ironically" was an attempt to point out that this time the "guilty" part was an unfortunate burden put on Sam's character by making him the cause of Amara in the first place (and having him blamed by even Chuck) and then adding 1000+ dead innocents on top of that. What I was trying to say - badly - is that if Sam's role as cheerleader here is supposedly important, doesn't that say that it in general is an important job?

So I'm not unhappy with Sam's role here. He did his Sam thing and got everyone going even when they didn't want to, but, in a way, he kind of had to - and that's where the guilt part comes in - because he had started it, so he kind of couldn't let everyone give up. That's the thing that annoys me. It makes Sam's role just a little less heroic, because if he gave up also, it would be his fault, so he had a bigger stake in everyone not giving up... and that was put on him by the fact that the writers had Sam start the apocalypse.

Compare that to season 7 where when Sam was rallying Dean not to give up and convinced Castiel to get his feathery ass down there and help stop the mess, he was doing that due to sheer determination not to see the world end - not because he caused it. Yes, it might be a small difference, but to me, it's a difference... and adding the 1000+ innocent people deaths in there a few episodes ago just upped the guilt anti.

No apocalypse start by Sam and I'd have absolutely no issue at all. Not that I disliked the episode or the conclusion... Dean's connection with Amara needed to mean something, and I agree with Pete Martell that he was the hero here, and it was something Dean needed and needed to hear. But for me, it would've been better without Sam starting it - after the numerous warnings that he ignored - and the resulting Sam blame.

I hope I made more sense that time.

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say he had no role. He influenced her final decision to the extent that she felt it was okay for her to reconcile with Chuck but if she hadn't already been influenced by pigeon lady she would have taken out Dean the moment she knew he had again betrayed her by being the actual bomb.

But could she even do that? She had already said that she wouldn't/couldn't harm him, and how did she know that the bomb wouldn't go off if she tried? As I said, I really do think that that leverage was important. Now Amara really did have to consider that if she went through with her plan that she might die, and that was something not on the table until Dean showed up.

[mertensia]

Pigeon Lady was important because she had no "get Amara!" agenda. Amara could listen to this stranger as she really couldn't with Dean or Chuck or Rowena.

Also: the UK MoLs has been tracking Sam and Dean for years now and they never show up and say "I think you could use help. We're here to help you"? Instead they do the equivalent of writing down infractions for after school detention? Yeah, not impressed. Also, UK MoL I bet you will rue the day you didn't just send a nice note and a glad-to-see new MoL fruit basket.

[Aeryn13]

I think Pigeon Lady made Amara sad or even sadder than she already was but she wasn`t gonna do anything about it. She was ready to sit there and mope all the way to even her own extinction. If Dean hadn`t shown up, she would have done exactly that.

On the other hand without Pigeon Lady, I think Dean still would have had a shot because Amara was sad even before her, about the flowers dying. Amara and Chuck had pretty much the same reactions to each other. Before Chuck was dying, she was hurt and furious and those feelings trumped everything. Meanwhile Chuck was somewhat subborn and defiant. Then she hurt him so badly that he was dying and he thought/knew she was dying and immediately both got incredibly mopey about it.

I believe talking her down wouldn`t have worked pre-Chuck dying. So hey, the stupid and messy episode 22 even had a point in the end. I doubt that was intentional but I`ll take it.   

Quote

What I was trying to say - badly - is that if Sam's role as cheerleader here is supposedly important, doesn't that say that it in general is an important job?

 I think that depends on how you see it. If it`s always important for you, then yes. For me, it`s never really important. That`s why I hated what they did to Dean in the Season 5 Finale. This episode, even though it wasn`t the same flashy BDH moment with noble sacrifice gone through, I consider it an apology for 5.22, six years in the making. Like, it takes the sting out of it to some measure because Dean got his world-saving moment, too, now. It makes the characters more even finally. That`s why it didn`t bother me that Sam had no real role like previously Dean had no real role. Again, balancing the scales. Not 100 % but at least so much that I can live with it. 

And I believe this was it, the last chance to do so. Everything now is probably going much smaller and less apocalyps-y. If they go for a real novelty and do a truly joined storyline in Season 12, it would even be a nice wrap.     

[ZennyKenny]

I don't think guilt had much to do with it though, because the theme of this season has been to stop dwelling on mistakes and refocus on "saving people, hunting things", emphasis on saving people. The boys were pretty straightforward this season; the only time I can think of any dishonesty is Dean lying about killing himself to try and save Sam. But they didn't even have that one come back and bite him in the ass, as they would have in previous seasons. Don't get me wrong, imo they should have definitely brought it up again, more as a pivot for a heart-to-heart than an excuse for brotherly angst though. Back to my point, the writers chose to not have either character stew in guilt this season. Which to me is a refreshing change of pace.