S11.E23: Alpha And Omega

[MysteryGuest]

I'm going to go with the idea that he's getting a chance to talk to her before she is sent to heaven.  I don't think she was there, and that's going to be Amara's gift to Dean.  A chance to say goodbye, and then the knowledge that she's at peace.  I don't want any retcon of the boys history, they've come too far and seen and done to much for that.  And I don't want Mary back in their lives now, 34 years after her death.  I want her story resolved nicely, episode one.

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND said:

see nothing but evidence that it was Dean who turned Amara around and Dean who stopped the slow slide into universe oblivion.  It was Dean who saw opportunity and changed the direction from dead Amara/Chuck to a reconciled Amara/Chuck.  And it was a MUCH better solution.

I never said Dean wasn't the Hero. I'm saying that he wasn't the ONLY reason that Amara had a change of heart, mind opinion whatever you want to call it.

Why didn't Dabb just have Dean say those same words "We love our family even when we hate them" instead of a random person we've never seen before?  IMO it's because Amara no longer trusted Dean and she might not have been as amenable to Dean's monologue (which BTW  I have all kinds of problems with but I'll talk about in the Dean thread at a later time)  about his relationship with Sam and she may have been  more inclined to smite Dean especially when she knew Dean was there to kill her. 

IMO she related to Pigeon Lady when Pigeon Lady talked about being lonely after her husband died and that her son wanted to her to move into a retirement community. IMO that connected to Amara's loneliness far more than anything Dean said to her later.  Dean was there for Amara's moral support once he didn't blow them all up.  IMO it was Pigeon Lady's loneliness that made Amara start to reconsider her relationship with Chuck more than Dean with Dean just reinforcing her newly discovered feelings or whatever she was experiencing.

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm going to go with the idea that he's getting a chance to talk to her before she is sent to heaven.  I don't think she was there, and that's going to be Amara's gift to Dean.  A chance to say goodbye, and then the knowledge that she's at peace.  I don't want any retcon of the boys history, they've come too far and seen and done to much for that.  And I don't want Mary back in their lives now, 34 years after her death.  I want her story resolved nicely, episode one.

But what is the point of that though? Dean has never once said he needed to say good bye to Mary. Nor do I think it came out through Dean's actions either. 

Heh, I think it would be hilarious if Mary was there to tell Dean, "I will love you no matter WHO you love" but I'm 100% certain that is not the case.

[MysteryGuest]

I think Amara's change of heart came from a combination of everything.  My guess is she felt momentary triumph when she beat God, but that feeling didn't last very long.  She was already beginning to regret things when she was walking through the garden and everything she touched started to die.  Then the old woman articulated the fact that you can be angry and even hate someone, while ultimately still loving them, and Amara saw her relationship with Chuck in those words.  Finally Dean shows up, and tell her he understands exactly how it feels to get revenge on someone, but that the feeling doesn't last, and you're left feeling empty inside.  I think what he said made her realize she could actually make things right with her brother, if she just took the chance to talk to him.  So I believe that Dean's role was particularly important to the end result, but that Amara was ready to be persuaded at that point.

[DittyDotDot]

I think pigeon Lady set the stage by making Amara realize she really did love her brother, even though she was angry with him. But, TBH, I think the changing point came before that when she realized that not only the world was dying, but she would also cease to exist. It's that moment, when you're in the midst of an argument with someone you love, where you suddenly realize you don't know what it is you're fighting about anymore, but have already went too far and don't know if you can come back from it.

So, to me, what Dean did was show her there was a way back. There was still time to fix it, she just needed to decide what she really wanted. I think what Dean did was far more important than pigeon Lady's role. Pigeon lady gave insight, but Dean offered a solution with his insight.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I'm mildly worried that Dabb is going to try to re-set the entire show. I don't know WHY he would do that because it's STUPID (unless he's setting up the exit for the boys along with setting up a spinoff opportunity.. IMO Resurrecting Mary for shock value is pointless, so why do it?

It better not be for shock value because, for one, it wasn't all that shocking. And I certainly hope they aren't going to reset the timeline. It would make everything that came before pointless, IMO. However, I am little concerned we'll get more Bloodlines than Supernatural, but Carver's turn kinda gave us more Being Human than Supernatural and I survived...more or less. To a certain degree, I do think Dabb is going to need to reset the show--in the sense he needs to make it his own--if it's going to work. I just hope it's not a complete reset. Right now I'm feeling hopeful he'll find someplace in the middle I can live with. Tomorrow I might have a different outlook on this, though. ;)

 

ETA: or what @MysteryGuest said while I wasn't paying attention.

Edited May 30, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[7kstar]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, to me, what Dean did was show her there was a way back. There was still time to fix it, she just needed to decide what she really wanted. I think what Dean did was far more important than pigeon Lady's role. Pigeon lady gave insight, but Dean offered a solution with his insight.

How many times had I been told something, but it didn't stick nor did I act on it.  Dean's speech created the desire to act on it.  Plus she needed backup to face her brother...Dean did that too.

Shock value ending...I'm afraid they've done that to death.  Most of Dean's storyline's have felt that way...unplanned in the end and used for shock value.  Now if Dabb is tying it back into the Season 3 story line of Mary's that was dropped it might mean something....might.  I don't have a problem with them bringing her back but it would be nice if it meant something. 

Also I hope they understand how and why the Bloodline ep failed.  Using the boys to do it, won't make it work but it does remind me of Highlander where the watchers were supposed to stay on the sidelines and got involved and even made friends...So I will wait and see what they do before I make up mind about it.  For now I'm hopeful.

[MysteryGuest]

I'll be honest, I never watched that Bloodlines episode.  I started to watch it and had absolutely zero interest.  Then I read that it was a supposed spin-off episode, which helped to explain why it felt so different.  I'm not surprised it didn't go anywhere.  I would like them to focus on the show at hand, and not worry about any spin-off possibilities, but they'll go wherever they think the money is.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

ow if Dabb is tying it back into the Season 3 story line of Mary's that was dropped it might mean something....might.  I don't have a problem with them bringing her back but it would be nice if it meant something. 

 Do you mean In the Beginning?  Dean was sent back to learn that things were always going to happen with Mary's deal but that Dean was going to have to try and stop Sam from hanging with Ruby and doing the Hand of Ipecac thing. Then in s5 we learned that the angels always planned to have John and Mary together. I'm not seeing what other Mary SL there is?

[7kstar]

No

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not seeing what other Mary SL there is?

Season 3 got cut short due to the writer's strike.  There was a mystery about her family.  How all of her family members were being killed off.   We sort of got something on that in season 6 with Gamble but maybe there is something we don't know that Dabb was part of or knows about. 

There is so much rich history in this show that if it is done right they could use it and make it important.  Of course, it means a seriously planned out arch.  Not something I've counted on with these writers. 

But Mary would be in the dark about all of this.  She died before any of this was revealed so if it was coming from her discovery...it could work.  Not spoilers because I don't know why they brought her back and to be honest I was surprised to see her.  I didn't connect the dots, this time.  Of course my job is the blame as pain and stress is really lowering my attention span.  So I'm just thinking out loud. 

Spoiler

Also if the clues are pointing to Dean being back in time or maybe even the empty...because where has she been all this time...since no one knows or hasn't been able to find her.  If Amara thinks that all Dean needs is his mother, doesn't get he needs his brother...this could be an interesting twist.  Or another fail.  Only time will tell.

When school is out, I'll try to watch 20 to the end.  Usually the real weight is in the last 4 eps. It's been this way since the beginning.  IMO.  All show runners have sort of stuck to some things that have worked in the past.  Another clue could have been how many images have we seen of mother and son?  Mary & Dean.  Toni & Son.  Could these be a tie in somehow?  No answers.  LOL.

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Do you mean In the Beginning?  Dean was sent back to learn that things were always going to happen with Mary's deal but that Dean was going to have to try and stop Sam from hanging with Ruby and doing the Hand of Ipecac thing. Then in s5 we learned that the angels always planned to have John and Mary together. I'm not seeing what other Mary SL there is?

I think what @7kstar was referring to was, in S3 they had plans to develop Mary's story more. I believe their plans were just to reveal Mary as a hunter and what had happened with her making the deal that set everything in motion. But the writer's strike forced them to drop that storyline. They did a lot of it in In The Beginning, but I think the original plan was to stretch it out and fill it in more. I think it's one of those great happy accidents for the show though. If they had done it in S3, they may not have gotten Mitch Pileggi to do Grampy Campbell and they had the better vehicle for it in S4 with the angels.

TBH, I'm kinda of two minds about this Mary reemergence. On the one hand, I love Samantha Smith--she and Jensen have a great chemistry together--but I think it might change the dynamic of the show for them to suddenly have a mother around all the time. There's things they can do, but I'm not sure those things aren't something that can be tidied up in a couple episodes.

On the other, much of what ended up being the Campbell storyline in S6 was a result of the dropped storyline in S3, and the less said about that the better, IMO.

Edited May 31, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Ah...thanks @7kstar & @DittyDotDot. I didn't know anything about that dropped SL of Mary's. I'm good if they never revisit Mary's life as a hunter. It seems like it was covered well enough in In The Beginning and yeah, no thank you to the Campbell clan again. I hated Grampa Campbell. Blech. NOPE. The only thing I would find interesting is Young Mary chewing out John for raising the boys as hunters..but even then if John hadn't raised them as hunters...who knows what would have happened to them when Azazel turned up again. It might be okay for a couple of episodes but that's it.  I'm not interested in an extended arc. 

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I never said Dean wasn't the Hero. I'm saying that he wasn't the ONLY reason that Amara had a change of heart, mind opinion whatever you want to call it.

<snip>

IMO it was Pigeon Lady's loneliness that made Amara start to reconsider her relationship with Chuck more than Dean with Dean just reinforcing her newly discovered feelings or whatever she was experiencing.

While I think Pigeon Lady was part of "softening the battlefield",  Looking at what I've bolded in your comments; this suggests to me that without Pigeon Lady, you believe Dean would have failed.  That Pigeon Lady was the catalyst and Dean just a helper.  I don't believe that.

The entire season set up Dean to be the one to show her a different path.  Her lack of satisfaction once she got her revenge, her appreciation for the beauty of creation, her despair over the dead flowers and unwillingness to touch the bird seed  were all natural outcomes of her experiences as a pseudo-human.  So before Pigeon Lady started talking, Amara was in a pretty dark place emotionally.  Yes, Pigeon Lady introduced the notion of loving your family even if they hurt you. But I contend that this was just another experience that supported "softening of the battlefield" of Amara's heart and if Pigeon Lady had NOT been there, I'm 100% confident that Amara would have still listened to Dean and ultimately reconciled with Chuck.  

As others have stated, what Dean did was pull her out of her funk and get her to really think about what SHE wanted. And then helped her go get it.  THAT was the important realization.  That she did not just have to accept what was happening.  Ultimately she could change what was going on and get what she really wanted.  Which, after all this time on earth, was not 100% of God's attention -- she understands the wonders of creation now -- but she just wants to be family again.  So Dean SHIFTED her focus and although that meant she had to let her guard down around God, she trusted Dean enough to take that chance.  And that's why it all worked out. Because in the end, she listened to Dean.  Not because the Pigeon Lady reminded her about loving family no matter what.  She already knew she loved Chuck, even though she was hurt. It's part of what made her feel like shit.  Pigeon Lady gave voice to just ONE of the issues she was dealing with. Dean put it all in context. And Dean is the one that gave her hope.  THAT was the real turning point IMO.

And I get you feel differently, but honestly, IF it's your contention that Pigeon Lady was the catalyst & Dean was just a helper, I don't see how Pigeon Lady's words were the driving force in Amara reaching out to Chuck.  If that was true, then she could have done that without Dean showing up.

[7kstar]

I didn't have a problem with the Campbell family, I had an issue with how it was dealt with.  So I'm open.  This is the fun of fans.  We all see things differently and although we may agree on some issues..we don't have to agree on all.  I doubt they will do a long arch because they usually do one half to Dean and the other to Sam.  Now if they did something to both at the same time...that would be cool.  I doubt the writers have the plan down yet.  I wouldn't be surprised to see that they thought hey this will be cool, the fans love Mary...now what on earth do we do with Mary?

 

@Sue B...we are on the same page.  I don't see the Pigeon Lady as a major part, just a pawn in the game.  For me Sam and Dean played the much bigger parts.  Things that bothered some fans I didn't notice.  I felt the same way about season 6, parts people hated I loved.  So I'm interested in what they do with Mary.  If they make it interesting for 3 or 4, just 1 ep...I'm cool either way.  :)

[catrox14]

Riddle me this. Why didn't Dabb put "Even when you hate them, you love them, you know? " in Dean's mouth? I'm seriously asking. Because for me, THAT was the true catalyst to Amara reconsidering her stance. She was already feeling regretful that she was killing the geranium. 

Basically, Dean was batting clean up here for a poor baseball analogy. 

[KirkB]

Amara had billions of years of anger, frustration and a need for revenge conflicting with regret, remorse and confusion. She had gotten her revenge, Chuck was dying, so why didn't she feel better? The angels, the demons, the witches, even Dean, they all tried to kill her at one point or another. No one ever bothered to sit down and talk to her, ask her what she really wanted, tell her that it was okay to feel mad and sad. Pigeon Lady was the first person in all of creation to tell her that with family you can hate them and still love them. Would those words have worked coming from Dean? Maybe, maybe not. Amara knew Dean was there to kill her, she could feel the power burning in him. He had an agenda and she had no real reason to trust or believe him. But she already had the idea of what she was feeling might be okay when Dean showed up and started talking to her. He wasn't blowing her up, he was trying to help. Having a complete stranger, someone who had no idea who or what she was and no possible agenda, open her mind a little made her more amenable to Dean, where she might have lashed out at him in anger (maybe thinking he was trying to distract her until he blew up) if he just tried talking to her first. The woman let consider options she hadn't before, and made her more willing and able to listen to Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Riddle me this. Why didn't Dabb put "Even when you hate them, you love them, you know? " in Dean's mouth? I'm seriously asking. Because for me, THAT was the true catalyst to Amara reconsidering her stance. She was already feeling regretful that she was killing the geranium. 

Basically, Dean was batting clean up here for a poor baseball analogy. 

My opinion - because that wouldn't really fit where Dean was with Sam this season. Even if Dean might've been angry about the removal of the mark's results, I think he understood it, and it seemed by the middle and especially the end of the season, they were in a good place. For me, the time when a statement like that from Dean might've fit might've been the beginning of season 5 or maybe the beginning of season 8. I don't think even mid season 9 - with Dean's guilt - it would've fit unless Dean was using Sam as the hate part, thinking Sam hated him. But then the "you know" part wouldn't have fit.

And for me, if they had had Dean say something like that, I would have been wondering if I had misinterpreted most of what I saw from the brothers' relationship this season, because I would be wondering why Dean would be saying something about hating someone while still loving them if he and Sam had been in a relatively good place this season. Why would he be thinking like that now? Especially after all the heartfelt stuff in the cemetery. For me, something like that coming from Dean would've seemed maybe out of place. Whereas with pigeon lady, she had a current reason why she would be angry with her loved one(s).

As for the catalyst for Amara, as KirkB above said, the pigeon lady was who got the ball rolling, but I think the real pushing it over the edge for getting Amara to change her course of action was Dean's talking about revenge and how it didn't last. Because Amara had been all about revenge for so long and thinking how sweet that would be, but now she was faced with the reality that not only might she not live long enough to enjoy it, she might even regret it before she lived long enough to enjoy it (and was already doing so)... thereby not only potentially dying, but dying unhappy. For me, that was what put it over the edge, or using your sports metaphor which I think was somewhat apt in that way (and not a poor analogy at all, in my opinion):

There might be runners on the bases (Amara's realization that she was killing things and pigeon lady maybe being those runners on base), but unless that clean-up batter hits that homerun (or at least a solid double or long sacrifice fly)... no one is scoring and it's all for nothing. Only because of the clean-up batter does the rest of the team effort really pay off. It doesn't matter that there are runners on the bases or what they did to get there if there is no one who can get them home before that third out... your score is still going to be zero for the inning and if it's the final inning and you're behind (because let's face it, Team Chuck and company were pretty much losing at that point and it was the bottom of the ninth with the sun going down - literally in this case,) you'll likely lose the whole game. Without the clean-up batter in that situation, the rest is for naught. Great effort from the team withstanding, you still lose anyway, and the bases might as well have been empty when that third out came, since the end result would've been the same. A loss.

So for me, Dean being the "clean-up batter" means that nothing would've happened without him. It just would've been a closer game still ending in a loss - in this case the end of the world.

And now that I've beaten that sports metaphor to death, I'll show myself out...

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

s (Amara's realization that she was killing things and pigeon lady maybe being those runners on base), but unless that clean-up batter hits that homerun (or at least a solid double or long sacrifice fly)... no one is scoring and it's all for nothing. O

Dean hit a bloop single LOL IMO

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean hit a bloop single LOL IMO

Hee - it doesn't matter what it was as long as someone scored because of it!

Dean stared down the pitcher, got the winning score, and prevented the loss (which was the end of the world.) A homerun would've just been frosting on the cake, but it wasn't necessary. That bloop single if you want it call it that? The most crucial bloop single ever. It was the difference between the end of the world and saving it.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee - it doesn't matter what it was as long as someone scored because of it!

Dean stared down the pitcher, got the winning score, and prevented the loss (which was the end of the world.) A homerun would've just been frosting on the cake, but it wasn't necessary. That bloop single if you want it call it that? The most crucial bloop single ever. It was the difference between the end of the world and saving it.

Hey, I love bloop singles! I will happily bloop and bunt my way to victory! Throw in a Baltimore chop. I might even call this a suicide squeeze!

Edited May 31, 2016 by catrox14

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I understand it opens up a lot of writing opportunities, but I don't want the boys entire sordid/heroic lives changed. I want their fucked up history to remain exactly as it has been.

 

I agree 100%!

Maybe it will be a test for Sam and Dean-if they had the chance would they reset their life? Have Mary not die in the nursery? Would they do that even though so many people they have saved would instead die? You know I could see that as the last seasons arc.....but for me to be happy with it they would have to let her die. 

I am just not getting a good feeling about this Mary stuff especially with all these new writers-do they understand how iconic their back story is?? uhg I hope the newbie writers watched the show.....

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Sibling Weirdness Isn't Just For Thanksgiving Anymore On Supernatural

That season finale was the bomb! Almost!

[Aeryn13]

But retconning a character`s entire history is all the rage now. Ask Captain America. I guess the Supernatural equivalent would be to find out the brothers always secretely were in league with Azazel. For...reasons. 

[catrox14]

Oh Fuck Captain America for that shit.

I could live with maybe an entire season of them living like a parallel universe, like in The End, It's a Terrible Life or the Djinn verse where they are playing slightly different versions of themselves, but not anything that actually resets their history or is a permanent change. 

And truly I can't imagine J2 being okay with a complete real, permanent do over. Yes they don't know the IP for the show..unless they are negotiating terms to get producer credits or something. But if TPTB have any respect for the legacy of the show or the Js,  I hope they are smarter than to give into that temptation. J2 love the Winchesters as they are,  warts and all.  It's too great a legacy and too much history for them to do a complete reboot. IMO viewers will tolerate it as a temporary thing but I think would freak the fuck out if their past is erased. IMO the show couldn't survive the backlash.

Edited May 31, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

You know, I've watched this episode 3 times now.

Something that is really niggling at me : 

Amara was supposed to have God powers but her only power seemed to be taking life, not giving it. She ate souls and seemed to need to be powered up with souls, or angel grace after the angels tried to smite her. Her nothingness is what was going to destroy humanity, as long as God was still alive. I mean she took life or left it alone. She didn't heal anything.

It was strongly implied her touch was killing the geraniums and she didn't seem to want to feed the pigeons, saying "I probably shouldn't" and holding her hands as though she knew it was her touch killing things.

So if all that is true, then how exactly could she have restored Chuck's life force?

Edited May 31, 2016 by catrox14

[sarthaz]

Let her guard down so Chuck could take it from her? Release some of those souls she'd been eating so he could eat them and power-up?

[catrox14]

Just now, sarthaz said:

Let her guard down so Chuck could take it from her? Release some of those souls she'd been eating so he could eat them and power-up?

Chuck wasn't taking anything from her. She was imparting something into him. It would be kind of sad if Chuck is living off of the souls she ate. :( .  What did God do with those he took out of Dean? Did he send them back to the veil? Back to being ghosts? To Heaven? Hell?

[bearcatfan]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Hey, I love bloop singles! I will happily bloop and bunt my way to victory! Throw in a Baltimore chop. I might even call this a suicide squeeze!

Damn, I missed the baseball analogy. I'm going to comment on it anyway. The pigeon lady was the guy who bunted the runner over so that bloop single could drive in the run. It's much easier to drive in that run if the runner is on 2nd or 3rd than if he's sitting on 1st.

I have no good explanation on how Amara healed God.

[sarthaz]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Chuck wasn't taking anything from her. She was imparting something into him. It would be kind of sad if Chuck is living off of the souls she ate. :( .  What did God do with those he took out of Dean? Did he send them back to the veil? Back to being ghosts? To Heaven? Hell?

I'm going with souls then.  Juicy, tasty souls.  Or maybe God-power is different?  She can't heal Chuck's creations, but she can transfer some of her essence to him to balance the scales?

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Damn, I missed the baseball analogy. I'm going to comment on it anyway. The pigeon lady was the guy who bunted the runner over so that bloop single could drive in the run. It's much easier to drive in that run if the runner is on 2nd or 3rd than if he's sitting on 1st.

I have no good explanation on how Amara healed God.

This works!

8 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I'm going with souls then.  Juicy, tasty souls.  Or maybe God-power is different?  She can't heal Chuck's creations, but she can transfer some of her essence to him to balance the scales?

But if her essence is nothingness.....how does that balance when he's already dying...?

[sarthaz]

I've kind of lost track of this thread in recent days, so apologies if someone already posted this, but it just kind of hit me that Dean has been sent back in time to right after Mary is killed.  She's wandering the street in her nightgown saying "help me" because she's dead and no one can see her, just like Dean in "In My Time of Dying".

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I've kind of lost track of this thread in recent days, so apologies if someone already posted this, but it just kind of hit me that Dean has been sent back in time to right after Mary is killed.  She's wandering the street in her nightgown saying "help me" because she's dead and no one can see her, just like Dean in "In My Time of Dying".

LOL this is what I said right away that Dean was sent back to the night Mary died. And that he'll have to make a choice about saving Mary or not.

But in your scenario if Mary is dead and Dean can see her..then how can that be? Does this mean Dean is dead? That maybe Amara actually killed Dean thinking she was giving him peace and his mother?

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

LOL this is what I said right away that Dean was sent back to the night Mary died. And that he'll have to make a choice about saving Mary or not.

But in your scenario if Mary is dead and Dean can see her..then how can that be? Does this mean Dean is dead? That maybe Amara actually killed Dean thinking she was giving him peace and his mother?

Well, wouldn't that be a kick in the ass? ;)

[MysteryGuest]

Obviously, I have no idea what the writers are going to do with the Mary storyline, but I have a hard time believing that Amara's "gift" would be something so negative as killing Dean, or making him choose whether she lives or dies again.  That just seems absurdly cruel, and I can't see Chuck/God going along with it.  Plus, Chuck said that earth was in good hands with Dean and Sam, so killing Dean makes no sense.  They've done non-sensical things before, so anything's possible, but I really hope they just tie up that storyline in a nice neat bow and allow the gift to be a gift.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

viously, I have no idea what the writers are going to do with the Mary storyline, but I have a hard time believing that Amara's "gift" would be something so negative as killing Dean, or making him choose whether she lives or dies again

But Amara may not see it that way.  I say this because of her exchanges with Dean

Quote

Amara: This place, this world hasn't been especially easy for you. Why not at least consider my offer?

Dean: This world is flawed. I will give you that. But I am not ready to say goodbye to it just yet.

Amara: But one way or the other, you will. It's inevitable. My brother won't stop me again, because he can't. Dean, give up your... smallness, your humanity and become boundless within me.

an: You're right. I am drawn to you. And it bothers the hell out of me, 'cause I can't control it.

Amara: Then why fight it? What you're feeling is that I am the end of your struggle. Something stops you. Keeps you from having it all.

In 11.21, Amara thinks he wants peace . That she was a way out of his struggle. Then she sees Mary's picture and Mary shows up at the end. And in 11.23 she says:

Quote

Dean, you gave me what I needed most. I want to do the same for you.

Amara needed her brother. That was her peace, IMO. Amara believes that reuniting with Mary is what Dean needs. It seems to me Amara cannot create life so maybe the only way for her to reunite Dean with Mary is through death or time manipulation. I keep coming back to this because of Dean being unable to get reception on his phone. It's not cruel from her perspective if she believes that is what Dean needed the most. 

[MysteryGuest]

But I don't believe that God/Chuck wouldn't have intervened, if that were her intention.  Regardless, if Dean is now dead with Mary, then we know that's not going to last, so I really hope they didn't go there.  It will be enough for him to have his moment of closure with Mary and then get about the business of finding Sam.  They really do need to move on from the old storylines...it's annoying.  

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So, after waiting 5 months for all of the s11 SPN to air; then I binged it the last couple nights.  Overall, it was one of the better seasons in a while.  More memorable moments and it really did feel like the 'old' Sam&Dean at times.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad God didn't die , but after all that, nobody did?  Where's the stakes when everyone survives a SPN season finale, or isn't stuck somewhere??  I mean, Rowena was standing just a few feet from Ground Zero of a mini-smiting and all she got was knocked out?  Even Lucifer was confirmed to have been banished somewhere, not destroyed.  Cmon, let's be serious, Show.

All season's worth of the whole big deal of Dean being unable to kill Amara - because of the 'attraction' - boiled down to her just being lonely and (deep down) wanting to reconcile with her bro Chuck.  And the last three episodes of the season were basically one big "I'm Sorry" tour for Chuck; the Winchesters, Lucifer, and Amara.  We get to see GOD, finally, and most his time on-screen is spent as him being sorry for being a bad/absentee 'father' and brother.  *facepalm*

After some reflection, why did SPN make God un-unique?  Death was said to be as old, if not older than God - but was killed by mortals (or at least has given the appearance of being so) - and Amara is at least the same age as God & can kill him.  But God created everything.  So spell it out for me, Show;  is God all-powerful, or not?  Because it seems like sometimes he is (when its convenient), but other times, when necessary, he's not.

 

Thoughts, predictions, theories for S12 based on the ending of S11:

•  I am very uncertain on how to view the Mary situation.  Did Dean go back to that night?  Was just-before-dying Mary brought forward to the current time?  Are they in an Amara-created 'limbo' of sorts??  Either way, she seems very disoriented and confused, and didn't immediately recognize Dean.  I think I would prefer it that Mary was brought forward in time, because otherwise means Dean would have to immediately say goodbye/let her die (again) to get out or back to his time, and that would mean Sam never getting to meet the mom as she was when she died when he was 6mos old.
•  I think Sam was either just 'winged' or given a warning shot.  Without any added sound effects of pain or a body drop, I am in no way buying that Sam was possibly killed by that shot.  Bad choice of a 'cliffhanger', but maybe it'll pay off in 5 months when the show comes back for its 12th season.  
•  I'm not going to bother speculating on whether or not Sam & Lady Toni will be a 'thing' or not - or her & Dean - but I do think that if the entire London/England chapter of the MoL is bad or evil, then she isn't or will turn to help the brothers.  Like has been mentioned, the scene of her kissing her sleeping son before leaving wasn't just thrown in for the heck of it.  I'm honestly not sure the whole other MoL is bad, though.  Maybe because its from such a distance and not knowing them personally, I think EMoL only sees the destination [ie, results] and not the journey of the Winchester brothers' deeds.  I am a bit curious, however, that if the EMoL knows about all the bad or 'bumbling' that the Winchesters have done, why not the good stuff too?  Sam&Dean may have made some big messes, but they've cleaned up after themselves each time - at least when it comes to the major events.  
•  Going off the last point, I could see next season starting off as the Winchesters vs EMoL, but some other big bad will arise and will force the two sides to work together to defeat it/them.  And through that joint work-around, EMoL will come to realize they were wrong about the brothers (or at least were being too harsh on & about them).  
•  I don't want Lucifer around much next season, especially if plan to keep him as the Big Bad Devil - even after him & Daddy kinda making up.  Go a season, or two, before making him a force almost too much to be reckoned with (again).

Edited May 31, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[sarthaz]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

LOL this is what I said right away that Dean was sent back to the night Mary died. And that he'll have to make a choice about saving Mary or not.

But in your scenario if Mary is dead and Dean can see her..then how can that be? Does this mean Dean is dead? That maybe Amara actually killed Dean thinking she was giving him peace and his mother?

Maybe. Time travel made sense from the get-go (because his cell phone didn't work), but I just couldn't reconcile why Mary was in the street in her nightgown saying "help me".  Then it dawned on me that she's already dead and wandering around looking for someone who can see her.  I haven't thought it through, but I'm wondering if Dean is her Reaper or something?  There to help her go straight to Heaven instead of spiriting around their house until they show up in Home?  That creates some paradox issues, but I dunno ...  Isn't Mary's ultimate fate to have her "energy cancelled out" or some mumbo jumbo?  Maybe Dean's there to give her a better ending?

Edited June 1, 2016 by sarthaz

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

 I haven't thought it through, but I'm wondering if Dean is her Reaper or something?  There to help her go straight to Heaven instead of spiriting around their house until they show up in Home?  That creates some paradox issues, but I dunno ...  Isn't Mary's ultimate fate to have her "energy cancelled out" or some mumbo jumbo?  Maybe Dean's there to give her a better ending

Ohhhh, yes! Dean as Mary's Reaper makes COMPLETE sense. I am so on board with this idea. yes. Yes.  And you know it might actually payoff Dean killing Death, which really should have had some kind of consequence for him. Dean was a reaper for a day. Considering Dabb wrote DSoTM this could be Mary and Dean's Dark Side of the Moon. Maybe Dean will show Mary how their lives have gone and that even though her children were raised as hunters, and they have suffered great losses and done some stupid things, in the end IMO they have done more good than bad(Lady McShutYourFaceHole's opinion notwithstanding) and then Mary can go to Heaven and be at peace.

[MysteryGuest]

I was thinking that Mary should remember Dean as an adult from meeting him when he time-travelled back to the 70's, but I forgot that they wiped her memory.  What a pain!  All of this speculation about what they have in mind for her is fun, but chances are the writers haven't thought much beyond that one scene.  Kind of like the Darkness from last season.  I'm just really not prepared to see the boys hunting with their mother...that's just too ridiculous for me.

[SueB]

I assume that Amara could heal God because perhaps his loss was her gain?  They were out of balance so she put them in balance again?  They emphasized how reality would be torn asunder if one was lost -- so applying a "Conservation of God-like power" theory that I just made up - I'm going with:

- There is X amount of God-class power, equally divided by Light and Dark
- If either goes to 0, then it's a situation that cannot be reversed and BOOM... cosmos rips apart
- But they can transfer power between each other to maintain that balance... because nature LOVES balance and abhors a vacuum

[KirkB]

Amara, as far as we know, can't create or give life. But she can steal life, and energy, and souls. Maybe she just gave Chuck back the energy/lifeforce/soul that she stole from him. It wouldn't be healing, just releasing, and letting it go back where it belonged.

[DittyDotDot]

I have a hard time believing they sent Dean back in time to "fix" things because that would make everything that came before null and void. Of course it's not out of the realm of possibilities with this show, but I'm hopeful they have something different in mind. 

However, I do believe Dean is somewhere else--either it is time travel or Amara sent Dean to wherever Mary is in her afterlife. That doesn't mean she killed him, he wasn't dead when he was sent to Purgatory but arrived their in his human form. My favored theory right now is Mary is in the Empty. I think the Empty could explain a lot of things on this show about where ghosts go when they burn their bones.

I speculated a few months back that the Empty may not describe the place but the souls that inhabit the place. Mary used all her ghost energy to cancel out the poltergeist. Perhaps the Empty is where de-powered souls end up? Heaven nor Hell would want them since they're useless to them so they get dumped in the Empty. Perhaps Amara saw that picture and searched for Mary only to find she wasn't in Heaven, Hell or the Veil, but found her in the Empty? Ash did say he had searched for both Mary and John and couldn't find them in Heaven and neither should be in Hell (although, that's never stopped the show before). I just wonder if Amara sent Dean to Mary because what Dean needs most is to know the people he loves gets peace in their afterlife? Could be that the Empty is also where angels and demons go when they "die". They would be de-powered too. Which means we could come across some things we've lost over the years. Could be interesting or could be the worst thing ever... .

Anyhoo, my thoughts on why Crowley and Billie were smirking at each other: Dean was supposed to die with this plan. I've had a theory that Crowley has wanted Dean dead since he didn't play his role as the obedient best friend a demon could ever have and embarrassed him in front of his minions. So, I think he and Billie teamed up with the goal of making sure the Winchesters stay gone. Dean dying is one Winchester down, hence the smirking. And hence why Billie was so quick to help them with the souls, IMO.

[KirkB]

Maybe Crowley 'knew' Billie from a previous encounter. He got physical with Naomi at some point in the past, to her considerable regret as I recall, so I don't see him spending some quality time with a Reaper as outside the realm of possibility.

Edited June 1, 2016 by KirkB

[MysteryGuest]

I like your idea of Mary being in the Empty.  Certainly it wasn't a place the reapers created just for Sam and Dean, so it makes sense that others would be there.  And helping Mary get to heaven would be a good win for Dean.  Of course, how he gets out of the Empty could raise some issues, but he's a resourceful guy.  

I personally think that either Billie and Crowley have a past, or they were just flirting.  I didn't think Crowley's smile was malicious in nature, I think he was charmed by her...if the King of Hell can actually be charmed.  Both Rowena and Dean were giving him a look like, "seriously, you're taking time to flirt now?"  I could be wrong, but I don't think Billie's really plotting against Sam and Dean.  I think she just intends to make sure they stay dead the next time.

[SueB]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I like your idea of Mary being in the Empty.  Certainly it wasn't a place the reapers created just for Sam and Dean, so it makes sense that others would be there.  And helping Mary get to heaven would be a good win for Dean.  Of course, how he gets out of the Empty could raise some issues, but he's a resourceful guy.  

I personally think that either Billie and Crowley have a past, or they were just flirting.  I didn't think Crowley's smile was malicious in nature, I think he was charmed by her...if the King of Hell can actually be charmed.  Both Rowena and Dean were giving him a look like, "seriously, you're taking time to flirt now?"  I could be wrong, but I don't think Billie's really plotting against Sam and Dean.  I think she just intends to make sure they stay dead the next time.

Can I just say how much I loved the looks Dean and Rowena gave. I don't care HOW much they disown Crowley, they reacted. So there. I have a ridiculous weakness for both Crowley and Rowena and I gotta say I think Chuck/God does too. When he was sitting at the table and Crowley was walking behind him, Chuck/God had some little smile on his face showing that whatever Crowley was saying amused him. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by SueB

[MysteryGuest]

I wasn't much of a Rowena fan in the beginning, in fact, I sort of hated her.  I thought she over-acted constantly, and in her initial story arc, she made Crowley look like a complete idiot to be taken in by her act.  I was thrilled when he finally wised up and kicked her ass to the curb.  But that being said, she's sort of grown on me.  I'm sure she'll end up going back to her double-crossing witchy ways, but it's sort of nice for the boys to have an ally who can do what she does.  I thought she genuinely looked upset when Dean was making his goodbye speech to everyone.  

[catrox14]

So Lady EMoL Wall of Weird is being dissected on Tumblr.

Sam's birth certificate is interesting. It says his name is Samuel William(?)  Winchester and his birthday is April 19, 1983 not May 2, 1983.

Mary's name is listed as Mary Catherine Howard. Not Mary Catherine Campbell or Mary Catherine Winchester?

John's name is John Howard/Edward ? Winchester

The mug shots on the FBI most wanted poster have Sam's eyes listed as Blue and Dean's as hazel.

They have Castiel's name as Cassiel. (Cassiel and Castiel are both angel names but Castiel is the Angel of Thursday and Cassiel is the Angel of Saturday.

So I'm thinking...is all this misinformation Victor Henriksen and Charlie's doing before they were killed? Was it the MoL being shitty at research? Bad work by the production team? ( I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT)

OR did Amara resurrecting Mary already change the past?

 

http://justanotheridijiton.tumblr.com/post/145031898799/11x23-lady-toni-bevells-corkboard-x

Edited June 1, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I chalk it all up to all the aliases they've used over the years...

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I chalk it all up to all the aliases they've used over the years...

Aliases would not account for the birth certificate. IMO it depends on when the birth certicate was located and how long it's been in Lady Toni's Wall of Weird.

Edited June 1, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Aliases would not account for the birth certificate. IMO it depends on when the birth certicate was located and how long it's been in Lady Toni's Wall of Weird.

Perhaps they don't have Sam's actual birth certificate, but another Sam Winchester they thought was Sam?

I believe some of that stuff has been in episodes before and it was pointed out it was wrong. I seem to recall some discussion over at TWoP about their "stats" in The Benders and, maybe, The Unusual Suspects. I dunno, I think it might be a healthy mix of the prop department getting some things wrong and purposely wrong because not everything you find in research is exactly accurate and/or what you need. Despite TV always trying to convince me I can google anyone and learn everything about them in two seconds flat.

[SueB]

Interesting stuff. I'm going with some is intentional error.