S04.E11: Dinner for Seven

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

I think there's a difference between bad writing and a character making stupid choices. People mess up. Security breaches happen because humans make mistakes, use poor judgment, miss things because of their own biases and self-absorption. If people in positions like Don's never broke protocol, operations like this would never work. But we know that they did and they do.

This is key. Bad writing would mean this came out of nowhere, when in fact we've been watching this con for quite awhile. Elizabeth was failing, mainly because Don was clean but maybe also because she really didn't want to do it. So the spies set in motion a last ditch effort to meet their objective. They had a decent shot, based on Elizabeth's read of Don, and it worked (sort of; they may still no get the codes, and if so, they blew months of work). I see no problem with the storytelling.

@AliShibaz You know, I'd really like to see Paige learn of Elizabeth's rape too. I think it would go a long way in humanizing her. But I can't see Elizabeth being the one to tell her. Elizabeth has never spoken of it, not even to Philip, and I suspect Gregory never knew. I can sort of see Philip telling Paige, or at least alluding to it, but I also think it's highly possible that even if he wanted to tell her, he wouldn't betray Elizabeth's confidence that way. So I don't know how it could come out, but I'm with you that I want Paige to know. (I suspect Elizabeth does not want Paige to know, however.)

Edited May 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[viajero]

4 hours ago, Ina123 said:

I agree totally. Pastor Tim and his church appear to be what I call New Agey. It's all about feeling good. NO traditional Christian church pastor would ever tell anyone that believing in God, prayer, and having faith didn't matter.

My Stepfather was the Minister of an extremely liberal Anglican congregation in B.C. and was quite active in many progressive issues (to the point where he eventually got into hot water with the Church’s hierarchy).  While I don’t think he would have ever told anyone that believing in God and having faith didn't matter, I do remember hearing him somewhat downplay those aspects when talking to non-believers (like myself) who he felt needed counseling.  I can also easily see him saying something like "praying feels weird at first but it kinda helps you should try it"

He also had a very non-literal interpretation of the bible, probably a necessity given that a sizeable minority of his congregation was LGBT (one of the few sermons I saw him give was on why you could still be a good Christian and ignore the anti-gay stuff in the bible).  But he also did think that reading the bible was still important for Christians and I could see him encouraging newbies (like Paige) to read it carefully and to come to him with any questions on how to interpret scripture.

Perhaps because of this background, I’ve been much less bothered by the way they’ve depicted all this than some of you.

What has bothered me more is that Pastor Tim still comes across as incredibly naïve.  For instance I still find it hard to believe that he would keep quiet about Soviet spies.  That’s something that my stepfather would never have done, no matter how much he was anti-nuke and hated the Reagan Administration.  But then my Stepfather was also a former RCMP Inspector and anything but naïve.

 

On a separate issue regarding Paige, she seems to have matured a lot in the 8 or 9 months since she initially blabbed to Pastor Tim.  She certainly seems to have come to a much better understanding of the seriousness of the situation.  We’ll see how she reacts to witnessing her Mother killing that mugger, but I would be very surprised if it causes her to go around blabbing about her parents being spies.  I think she’s learned her lesson when it comes to that.

Having said all that, I do hope that the mugging scene will cause us to finally get some movement of some kind on the Paige front.  I’ve always been interested in the Paige subplot, but even I was getting tired of watching her mope around.

[maczero]

On 5/26/2016 at 5:31 PM, Conan Troutman said:

Even Henry with his prehistoric joystick would be faster. 

Hey, don't knock the joystick!  I consider it superior to most game controllers.

Quote

 

Why do all the adult men on this show hit on Paige and not Elizabeth, is that like an inside joke of that show?

 

Yeah, Paige seems to be creeper bait.

 

18 hours ago, gwhh said:

Do we really know if that guy is died?  When we last saw him he was rolling around on the ground very hurt but still observably alive! 

If he ain't dead, then he doesn't have much time.  He was stabbed in the throat and bleeding heavily enough to leave a large pool of blood.  Even if an ambulance was called immediately (which it most likely wasn't), I'd say that guy is DOA.

18 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

I don't think Elizabeth is seducing Tim. That's not how his character's been written at all.  

I don't think she is either but I suspect Elizabeth would probably enjoy corrupting Tim if she thought it would expose him as a hypocrite. 

5 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

But it sure would feel wonderful to me if this was the turning point whereby she finally decided her parents were indeed wonderful people and not evil people and that she decided to do most anything she could to support them in appreciation for their protection.

Wonderful?!

Edited May 27, 2016 by maczero

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, maczero said:

Hey, don't knock the joystick!  I consider it superior to most game 

Yeah, Paige seems to be creeper bait.

 

If he ain't dead, then he doesn't have much time.  He was stabbed in the throat and bleeding heavily enough to leave a large pool of blood.  Even if an ambulance was called immediately (which it most likely wasn't), I'd say that guy is DOA.

I don't think she is either but I suspect Elizabeth would probably enjoy corrupting Tim if she thought it would expose him as a hypocrite. 

Wonderful?!

Wonderful because her mom intervened and prevented Paige from getting raped and/or murdered. If one of my parents ever did that for me, I would definitely consider them to be wonderful parents.

I know that many people may wonder how I could ever consider E and P to be wonderful people. Perhaps it would have been better had I narrowed the focus to "wonderful parents" and stuck to the incident where E prevented Paige from being harmed as well as the incident in an earlier season where Phillip prevented that pedophile who was looking to hit on Paige in the clothing store. Remember? Phillip went to visit that creep later in the day and laid a good beating on him. I would have liked to have seen what one or both of those parents would have done to that creep who picked up Paige & Henry that time they were hitchhiking. Remember?

Like many people, I get somewhat carried away when it comes to dealing with Pedophiles. I really have little mercy for them because they victimize the most helpless members of our society.

Edited May 27, 2016 by AliShibaz

[madam magpie]

I think too that if Philip and Elizabeth were doing what they do in the name of the US or its allies, many people would consider them heroic, even wonderful, which is one of the main points of the show, of course. Collateral damage happens in war all the time, and all sides have to deal with it. That doesn't necessarily mean that the war isn't valid or the soldiers aren't heroic, wonderful people and parents.

[shura]

I love how this

18 hours ago, scartact said:

They definitely said the operation they did on Don was something that was often surprisingly successful, especially with diplomats who had been trained to watch out for these kinds of things.

and

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

A play that has apparently been used quite successfully in several operations, not just by the KGB, but by our CIA, against people more well trained in subversive methods.

in just a few hours becomes this:

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

What's interesting to me is that this exact operation has been used successfully by the CIA, and no doubt, the KGB as well.

Are they saying that this exact operation - the one where a man is tricked into believing he had sex that he didn't actually have, and then leaves strangers in his office in a high security facility to rummage through classified stuff as they please - has been really done on numerous occasions? I think I'll remain skeptical.

I suspect what has been successful is the general outline of the operation, where the mark is seduced, then made believe he is responsible for the suicide of the person he slept with, and through that he is either blackmailed or the spies gain access to his personal things (say, meet with him at his house and bug his briefcase, or something like that). That I can see. Getting into the embassy and copying the ambassador's papers? Fiction.

Edited May 27, 2016 by shura

[Umbelina]

You can listen for yourself. 

BUT, as far as fooling the mark into believing it?  I honestly can't remember, he did mention several versions of this though.

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, shura said:

I love how this

and

in just a few hours becomes this:

Are they saying that this exact operation - the one where a man is tricked into believing he had sex that he didn't actually have, and then leaves strangers in his office in a high security facility to rummage through classified stuff as they please - has been really done on numerous occasions? I think I'll remain skeptical.

I suspect what has been successful is the general outline of the operation, where the mark is seduced, then made believe he is responsible for the suicide of the person he slept with, and through that he is either blackmailed or the spies gain access to his personal things (say, meet with him at his house and bug his briefcase, or something like that). That I can see. Getting into the embassy and copying the ambassador's papers? Fiction.

Yep. It is credible that a blackout drunk could be tricked into thinking he had done some things he was ashamed of, because that is how blackout drunks live their lives. I'm sure the KGB took advantage of that on more than a few occasions, because FBI, CIA, State Department, etc., are pretty nortorious for having some personnel who abuse alcohol. Same thing with sex addicts, or people who have a penchent for what are seen as  inappropriate sexual relationships. That is how they temporarily turned Larrick, in a competely believable way. This Don operation really was contrived.

[RedHawk]

4 hours ago, jrlr said:

I agree with everyone who identified Pastor Tim's church with Unitarianism because that's exactly what I thought when he was talking to Elizabeth.  Also, a friend's father is an extremely liberal pastor at a United Church of Christ, which affirms the belief in Christ but also strongly pushes social justice - I think each congregation kind of does their own thing within certain covenantal guidelines, but it's completely not my bailiwick so I'm not sure. 

This question is not meant to be offensive, but is that phrase "post-literal (when it comes to) theological interpretation" a commonly accepted phrase?  It kind of startled me when I read it; I certainly understand what it means, but it's not something I've every heard or read before.   

I got the impression that the church, since it's not a specific denomination (Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ, etc.) was one of those one-off sort of churches, maybe because they are more common where I come from. Sometimes an ordained minister formulates his own set of specific "beliefs" and breaks with his denomination to form his own church. That happened a lot in the '60s and '70s, when some churches became more liberal and "modern". For purposes of the show, that's what worked for me so I didn't question it further.

[lacEdoll]

On 5/25/2016 at 11:55 PM, madam magpie said:

I thought it was very controlled and deliberate. I took martial arts for years, and we were always taught that the goal was to neutralize the attacker. If he had a knife, you were to take the knife and stab him with it. We were taught specific techniques for that purpose. You hope that eventually the technique will become instinct. Elizabeth just didn't half-ass it. There's no way for her to know that this guy won't get up and come after them again. 

I have a black belt in Krav Maga. We are taught that in a situation where there is obvious threat to one's life or the life of one's child...which there clearly was...that you become the attacker to protect not only you but your child. There was a definite threat to Paige,  I know if I thought my child was being threatened in the the manner that Paige was, I would do anything, including kill the person threatening her. 
Yes it showed Elizabeth's obvious skills but it also showed her fierce love for her daughter. Had she not faught, imagine the consequences to both of them. 
Sometimes it truly is kill or be killed. THe attacker with the knife displayed a real threat to both of their lives. 

[madam magpie]

28 minutes ago, lacEdoll said:

I have a black belt in Krav Maga. We are taught that in a situation where there is obvious threat to one's life or the life of one's child...which there clearly was...that you become the attacker to protect not only you but your child. There was a definite threat to Paige,  I know if I thought my child was being threatened in the the manner that Paige was, I would do anything, including kill the person threatening her. 
Yes it showed Elizabeth's obvious skills but it also showed her fierce love for her daughter. Had she not faught, imagine the consequences to both of them. 
Sometimes it truly is kill or be killed. THe attacker with the knife displayed a real threat to both of their lives. 

Most definitely. Elizabeth was fighting for her child...she starts to step in front of Paige...and for both their lives. And she began doing it the moment the guys appeared. Paige was clueless and offered up the grocery store for cigarettes, but Elizabeth knew what was going on. And she tried to ward it off with a non threatening posture. We were always taught that too: put your hands up like "hey man, we don't want any trouble, just walking away, take my wallet," etc. But she was ready, and she was, I think, fully within her rights to kill the guy with the knife. I noticed too that she only hit the other guy; he was less of a threat, no weapon, maybe he'll back off. But when the knife comes out, that's it. And if the other guy had come back at her, I think she'd have had the right to kill him too.

Krav maga...awesome! We studied some Krav Maga techniques, mostly easy ways to get out of choke holds. They were so efficient!

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, viajero said:

While I don’t think he would have ever told anyone that believing in God and having faith didn't matter, I do remember hearing him somewhat downplay those aspects when talking to non-believers (like myself) who he felt needed counseling.  I can also easily see him saying something like "praying feels weird at first but it kinda helps you should try it"

For me, it just seems like the show's wanting to have it two ways. They want Paige to get really into Christianity because her parents are secretly Soviet atheists. The church becomes her whole life. Since it's supposed to be set up as an alternative to Elizabeth's own hardline faith it seems the religious aspect was going to be strong. That's what Elizabeth doesn't like after all, is the fairy tale aspect. She's fine with the politics--her main criticism of them is that they're not extreme enough in her view. Think, for instance, of Viola blatantly telling Philip she knows he's the devil, that God will protect her, asking if he believes in God. Those were two people with completely different worldviews that were completely real to them and did not match up. Elizabeth's "fairy tale" is very real to Viola. 

But Paige has never really lived up to Elizabeth's dismissive description of "believing in fairy tales." She talks about Christianity almost exclusively in terms of making this world better--explains her admiration for Jesus for doing the same thing. (The one Bible reference also used Jesus to illuminate Pastor Tim's heroism as an anti-war protester.) She at first seemed attracted to the Bible as a structure/rulebook for life (since again it was set up as an alternate faith to Elizabeth's cause) but her moral discussions including those with Pastor Tim rarely if ever have to do with God. Which yes, of course I'm not saying that in order to call yourself Christian you have to reason in one specific way. But if you're writing this whole storyline as a religious threat to Elizabeth's philosophy I'd think it would be relevant. 

If it's not, then you're not really writing about losing Paige to Christianity imo. Which I think is the case. So like if you look at that last conversation if you look at what two sides are being represented it's not Pastor Tim/God's forgiveness and love and joy if you submit to his will vs. Elizabeth/making the world better by submitting to the will of the state. It's Elizabeth/make the world better by submitting to the will of the state vs. Pastor Tim/reject dogma and treat people well. Certainly someone can be Christian and have that attitude but so could a non-Christian. 

[madam magpie]

It's Elizabeth who thinks she's losing Paige to Christianity. I don't think that's actually what was happening. For Elizabeth, religion is worse than drugs and tattooed boyfriends. It's a gateway to rack and ruin. So I think that no matter how lax Paige's church is in the dogma of Christianity, it matters very little to Elizabeth. For her it's all the same. That's her bias. Passive resistance? Please. One of my favorite lines is when Philip says of Paige. "If she brought up nonviolent protest one more time, I was going to punch her in the face." Feeding the poor? Those weak softies should rise up in a proletariat revolution. Chaining oneself to a gate? Useless. And so on. That's all part of the fantasy. It would be interesting if Paige started coming home with opinions about working women, premarital sex, abortion, etc. I'd love to see Elizabeth's reaction to that. But the larger issue is, I think, that Elizabeth is blind to any positives because she's so biased. Maybe that's changing...honestly, I hope not. But it's always been one of the best and most hilarious turns of events for me that Elizabeth will "take [her] chances" with Paige and a rebellion like drugs, but Jesus is a vile phase that must be stamped out.

I also heard Keri Russell say in an interview that one of the biggest issues for Elizabeth as related to the Groovyhairs is that it's unsettling and infuriating to watch another adult have so much influence over your child. She said that in a similar position with her own children, her claws would come out. So there's that kind of competition too. I don't think the church or pastor had to be dogmatic for that to fit, and as others have said, I've certainly known religious people (especially years ago) who ran churches the way Tim does. I went to a church like that in Hawaii in the early 80s. It was all fun bible stories, games, coloring, and snacks like American cheese and Kool-aid that my mother refused to buy. I even came home asking to be baptized because all the other kids were doing it and you got a piece of candy and a certificate after.

Edited May 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

For Elizabeth, religion is worse than drugs and tattooed boyfriends. It's a gateway to rack and ruin. So I think that no matter how lax Paige's church is in the dogma of Christianity, it matters very little to Elizabeth. For her it's all the same.

Right, exactly. It's not a story of Paige becoming Elizabeth but with a different, competing worldview.  Their worldviews are different, of course, but most of those differences come from the life Elizabeth gave her rather than Pastor Tim's strictly Christian teachings. He made Paige more sensitive to her own moral compass, but he didn't give it to her that I can see.

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I also heard Keri Russell say in an interview that one of the biggest issues for Elizabeth as related to the Groovyhairs is that it's unsettling and infuriating to watch another adult have so much influence over your child. She said that in a similar position with her own children, her claws would come out. So there's that kind of competition too.

Exactly, Pastor Tim could have been a guidance counselor who was this pushy and powerful and she'd be annoyed. It's even worse that he's called Pastor and Paige has sprouted a gold cross that never leaves her neck. Like in this ep where Pastor Tim mentions Elizabeth fearing losing Paige "to God" and she says "to you." Elizabeth's right. Paige isn't earnestly telling her mom she's worried about her going to hell, she's gushing about Pastor Tim doing just about anything. 

[Dowel Jones]

On 5/26/2016 at 9:08 AM, shura said:

When the computer lady was working in Don's office, I was remembering how P&E were retrieving a computer punch card in the first season. And now we have diskettes! Technology moves fast, no?

An article in the news this last week related how some computers in the Pentagon and the VA are still using diskettes, and COBOL language.  The  people wo know how to deal with this are retiring, and over half the IT budget in some cases is dedicated to keeping these dinosaur systems running, instead of upgrading to at least the late 20th century.

[madam magpie]

I almost (almost because even if it's cold and dark, I do have a soul) think that it's the "make the world a better place" that's really the fantasy story. Elizabeth is doing horrible things to make the world a better place. Groovyhair is doing some useless and judgey things to make the world a better place. Paige outed her family and put them in danger. Alice threatened. Philip ruined Martha's life. Stan got Nina shipped off to the gulag and shot. In reality, we all have very little control over making the world a better place. It's too big, too vast, has too many different cultures and kinds of people. But Groovyhair kind of realized,"hey, I can make things better for my family. I can protect and love them." Elizabeth and Philip are doing that too. So maybe in the end, they'll reject the platitude and embrace their little unit as the core and soul, rather than the state (or religion or capitalism or whatever). 

Edited May 27, 2016 by madam magpie

[scartact]

3 hours ago, shura said:

Are they saying that this exact operation - the one where a man is tricked into believing he had sex that he didn't actually have, and then leaves strangers in his office in a high security facility to rummage through classified stuff as they please - has been really done on numerous occasions? I think I'll remain skeptical.

I suspect what has been successful is the general outline of the operation, where the mark is seduced, then made believe he is responsible for the suicide of the person he slept with, and through that he is either blackmailed or the spies gain access to his personal things (say, meet with him at his house and bug his briefcase, or something like that). That I can see. Getting into the embassy and copying the ambassador's papers? Fiction.

To clarify my previous comment, I was referring to the general outline of the operation itself, as you've surmised, as opposed to the specifics of the Don operation. The specific terms of these different operations? I have no clue. Everyone is entitled to their respective beliefs or skepticism.

Edited May 27, 2016 by scartact

[BananaRama]

I think the KGB will clean up Elizabeth's murder scene and no one will ever hear of it.  A couple of weeks ago Elizabeth killed an asset in her own home and we never heard anything about that again. 

[Dowel Jones]

Quote

She did have on gloves.

She's in the clear, then.  If she goes to trial, all she has to do is try to put on a glove and claim it doesn't fit. 

[BananaRama]

7 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

That's a very common notion, yes. Many mainline churches, for example, don't take the Adam and Even Eden stories to be literal depictions of history - but allegories - representational of abstract theological truths. The same goes for Noah and the Ark, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. One of my degrees is in Biblical history, so I'm pretty familiar with this stuff. Church movements that have followed the postmodern trajectory of interpretation don't look to the Bible as a rule-book, or strict, once-and-for-all manual for Christian living like evangelicals do. It's sometimes curious to hear the two parties (pre-modern churches and postmodern churches) talking to each other about the Bible (or reality, for that matter) because they tend to mean completely different things while using the very same words. The overarching worldviews are very different.

Maybe Pastor Tim is just really good at his job.  He knows a little bit about Elizabeth's background (she's from communist Russia) and he knows that she is not only not religious but anti-religion.  She is seeking him out for something and he knows that he has to take baby steps with her, plus he probably has figured out that she can smell bullshit a mile away. 

[ptuscadero]

On 5/26/2016 at 6:53 PM, madam magpie said:

She's no amateur! (Also, it is always winter...)

IKR? I don't think I've ever seen these people in short sleeves.

[shura]

4 hours ago, scartact said:

To clarify my previous comment, I was referring to the general outline of the operation itself, as you've surmised, as opposed to the specifics of the Don operation. The specific terms of these different operations? I have no clue. Everyone is entitled to their respective beliefs or skepticism.

Yes, I understand that. I wasn't knocking anybody who made comments about what was said on the podcast or trying to catch anybody at inconsistencies or inaccuracies. I was honestly enjoying observing how this thing was transforming into something different, from "something like this was done for real" to "this exact operation", soon to be almost "proof that there's nothing unrealistic here" if we are not careful :). It is a thing of beauty, this transformation.

I finally got around to listening to the podcast.  For the record, what they said was that the operation we saw on the show was based on real cons the KGB did very successfully to Western diplomats in the Soviet Union. They were honeytrapped and told that the woman got pregnant and killed herself, or got an abortion and was suicidal, and it worked over and over again. The diplomats did the things (unspecified in the podcast) the KGB needed, but only as long as they were stationed in Moscow. The KGB was frustrated they weren't able to parlay this into continuing to use those diplomats after they returned to their home countries.

So yeah, it's not exactly the Don operation. It would be a bit more difficult and risky for the illegals in the US to try to trap Don like that, compared to the KGB on their home turf. And there is no evidence that getting to search someone's secure office like that has ever been successful in real life. I mean, it was possibly tried, but I would be surprised if it actually worked. 

All that said, I don't really have a problem with the Don operation. Yes, some things had to go exactly the right way for it to work, probably unlikely in real life, but this is fiction. It wasn't impossible for the operation to go like that, so that's where the story went. I enjoyed it.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, BananaRama said:

Maybe Pastor Tim is just really good at his job.  He knows a little bit about Elizabeth's background (she's from communist Russia) and he knows that she is not only not religious but anti-religion.  She is seeking him out for something and he knows that he has to take baby steps with her, plus he probably has figured out that she can smell bullshit a mile away. 

Which part is the bullshit she'd smell? The part where he says whether you believe doesn't matter so just be a nice person, or whatever he's leading her to with baby steps? ;-)

Edited May 28, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

He said how you treat people matters more.  As in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  New testament for non believers.

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He said how you treat people matters more.  As in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  New testament for non believers.

He says “None of those things ( believing in God, religion or prayer) matter. All that matters is how we treat each other."

I don’t actually mean to pick apart his words, it just seemed funny to say Pastor Tim’s being really good at his job by leading the anti-religious person in baby steps and also avoiding setting off a bullshit detector by saying them. The implications of that idea are kind of shocking both ways.

Edited May 28, 2016 by sistermagpie

[gwhh]

8 hours ago, lacEdoll said:

I have a black belt in Krav Maga. We are taught that in a situation where there is obvious threat to one's life or the life of one's child...which there clearly was...that you become the attacker to protect not only you but your child. There was a definite threat to Paige,  I know if I thought my child was being threatened in the the manner that Paige was, I would do anything, including kill the person threatening her. 
Yes it showed Elizabeth's obvious skills but it also showed her fierce love for her daughter. Had she not faught, imagine the consequences to both of them. 
Sometimes it truly is kill or be killed. THe attacker with the knife displayed a real threat to both of their lives. 

I have taken a bunch of Krav Maga class.  Given by this serious big city cop, who built like the hulk.  That some serious stuff, for serious times.  Krav Maga is Hebrew for "It will only hurt until you die from it." 

Quote

Why do all the adult men on this show hit on Paige and not Elizabeth, is that like an inside joke of that show?

 

Yeah, Paige seems to be creeper bait.

Is this like an inside joke for the show.  I mean if P&E just spent all there time beating up the guys that creep on her.  There be no time left for doing KGB stuff!! 

I went back and rewatch the episode.  The thug did get stab in the neck and that was a decent size knife also.  You get a real clear view of it in slow motion.  That guy died for sure.  Good news Elizabeth was wearing gloves when he stabbed her so no fingerprints 

Edited May 28, 2016 by gwhh

[Dev F]

On 5/27/2016 at 11:08 AM, Bannon said:

Don wouldn't leave them thete, for fear that when he got back from the bank, the security staff would be crawling all over them, and ready to grill Don. It just increases the risk for Don exponentially, and the writers are portraying Don as a guy who wants minimize his risk of exposure.

Don left them in an office that he apparently keeps locked as a matter of course (he unlocks it as they enter), in what seems to be a quiet and relatively untrafficked section of the building. It seems unlikely to me that security is going to break into the locked office of the administrative director -- as I mentioned, the guy who's probably the boss of their boss and in charge of administering security procedures -- because he does something a little off book one time.

And I think it's important to remember that the KGB isn't going into this facility blind. William has no doubt laid out how his lab handles security, what the weaknesses in the system are, etc., etc. And Don was targeted because, based on that information and any other details the KGB was able to glean, he was considered the most likely avenue of entry. So I don't see it as bad writing if the guy they picked specifically for being the weak link in the lab's security apparatus ends up making dumb mistakes when it comes to security.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Dev F

[Anela]

17 hours ago, madam magpie said:

Most definitely. Elizabeth was fighting for her child...she starts to step in front of Paige...and for both their lives. And she began doing it the moment the guys appeared. Paige was clueless and offered up the grocery store for cigarettes, but Elizabeth knew what was going on. And she tried to ward it off with a non threatening posture. We were always taught that too: put your hands up like "hey man, we don't want any trouble, just walking away, take my wallet," etc. But she was ready, and she was, I think, fully within her rights to kill the guy with the knife. I noticed too that she only hit the other guy; he was less of a threat, no weapon, maybe he'll back off. But when the knife comes out, that's it. And if the other guy had come back at her, I think she'd have had the right to kill him too.

Krav maga...awesome! We studied some Krav Maga techniques, mostly easy ways to get out of choke holds. They were so efficient!

I've been thinking lately, that I wish I'd taken martial arts as a kid - and this episode confirmed my feeling that it would have been a good thing. I would have loved to have the confidence to walk around knowing that I could take care of myself that way. I agree with those who thought she had a natural reaction of anyone with a child - she protected her, and I thought that was great. I can see Paige being grateful, but then upset - I think that's also a natural reaction to someone you know being responsible for another person being hurt (badly) or worse, even if anyone else would have done the same thing in their shoes.

[sistermagpie]

You know, maybe it’s just getting into all the stuff about Pastor Tim on the board after this ep, but it almost makes me wonder if there isn’t something going on with him too in that scene. I mean, he’s the one who just went through a traumatic experience. From the way he’s been before I almost would have expected him to come back with stories about his adventure, but instead he was more humble than we ever saw him, very honestly having had a sort of epiphany of sorts. Not an epiphany about Philip and Elizabeth’s work or them as people, but just that their precarious position became real to him. Also he specifically realized that he’d done something stupid and nearly jeopardized his whole life. Like his wife, he’d faced real fear, only in his case he was wandering in a desert probably terrified and hopeless.

 

So watching that last scene with Elizabeth again to make sure I was remembering him right, I almost wondered if that line of his about nothing else mattering being a new idea for him. Especially because I remember being struck by Elizabeth’s expression when he walks away. She looks a bit puzzled. And she kind of has reason to be.

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

Don left them in an office that he apparently keeps locked as a matter of course (he unlocks it as they enter), in what seems to be a quiet and relatively untrafficked section of the building. It seems unlikely to me that security is going to break into the locked office of the administrative director -- as I mentioned, the guy who's probably the boss of their boss and in charge of administering security procedures -- because he does something a little off book one time.

And I think it's important to remember that the KGB isn't going into this facility blind. William has no doubt laid out how his lab handles security, what the weaknesses in the system are, etc., etc. And Don was targeted because, based on that information and any other details the KGB was able to glean, he was considered the most likely avenue of entry. So I don't see it as bad writing if the guy they picked specifically for being the weak link in the lab's security apparatus ends up making dumb mistakes when it comes to security.

He also looks around the office before he leaves, doing a visual check to see if there's anything out that shouldn't be. Satisfied that there isn't, he leaves with Philip. And of course, there wasn't anything out that shouldn't be.

[jrlr]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

He said how you treat people matters more.  As in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  New testament for non believers.

As a nonbeliever, the phrase "New testament for non-believers," sounds a lot like "There are no atheists in a foxhole" to me.  Both are smugly dismissive of any idea that doesn't fall in line with believing that all the answers to your cosmic questions will be addressed and explained first and best in the writings of Christianity.  

The reality is the golden rule in various forms predates any version in the old or new testament.  It's seen in Egyptian writing as early as 2000 BC, the Hebrew bible around 700 BC ”Love your fellow as yourself,",  Buddhism c. 500 BC "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful,"  Confucianism c 500 BC “What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others” and  Socrates.- circa 400 BC “Do not do to others what would anger you if done to you by others."  

So maybe the more accurate statement would be that the new testament for believers is simply based on a lot of pre-existing ideas, including the  much older golden rule.  

[Umbelina]

Well, I was looking at it from his point of view, as a believer.

Quote

You know, maybe it’s just getting into all the stuff about Pastor Tim on the board after this ep, but it almost makes me wonder if there isn’t something going on with him too in that scene. I mean, he’s the one who just went through a traumatic experience. From the way he’s been before I almost would have expected him to come back with stories about his adventure, but instead he was more humble than we ever saw him, very honestly having had a sort of epiphany of sorts. Not an epiphany about Philip and Elizabeth’s work or them as people, but just that their precarious position became real to him. Also he specifically realized that he’d done something stupid and nearly jeopardized his whole life. Like his wife, he’d faced real fear, only in his case he was wandering in a desert probably terrified and hopeless.

@sistermagpie  Maybe I'm losing it, entirely possible, yesterday was horrific for me.  Anyway, i thought he did say all of that to her.  He was thinking about never getting back for his child, and compared that to the Jennings situation/feelings about him and their child.  He said it must feel like he's got a sword ready to chop off their heads at any moment, kind of like he felt wandering around Africa, he might die at any moment.  Anyway, I don't have his words, but yes, it became very clear to him.  Life and death situations can do that to a person.  He was much kinder, and I think Liz responded to that kindness more than the words.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

  Maybe I'm losing it, entirely possible, yesterday was horrific for me.  Anyway, i thought he did say all of that to her.  He was thinking about never getting back for his child, and compared that to the Jennings situation/feelings about him and their child.  He said it must feel like he's got a sword ready to chop off their heads at any moment, kind of like he felt wandering around Africa, he might die at any moment.  Anyway, I don't have his words, but yes, it became very clear to him.  Life and death situations can do that to a person.  He was much kinder, and I think Liz responded to that kindness more than the words.

Yes, he did say that in the first scene. But I meant that all of that was hinting at something bigger going on with him that went beyond changing the way he related to the Jennings. So he wasn't just being kind to her (and now being able to be kind without also seeming condescending or smug), he actually wasn't so sure of his beliefs as he was before, or they'd changed or were changing in significant ways.

[Umbelina]

He was walking the walk not talking the talk.

He did change, as we all probably do when confronted with the very real possibility of death.  Now, how long will he be able to hold on to that?  Probably for a while.  He was treating her as he would want to be treated, with love, compassion, fairness.  "Do unto others" or "The Golden Rule."  That's why he said what you believe in isn't the important thing, it's what you DO.

That's actually quite an interesting idea for Elizabeth, if she absorbs that in any way, and looks at what she actually DOES, will that change her, even if only a bit, from the hard nosed KGB operations officer she is?  A simple hesitation could be deadly for her.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He did change, as we all probably do when confronted with the very real possibility of death.  Now, how long will he be able to hold on to that?  Probably for a while.  He was treating her as he would want to be treated, with love, compassion, fairness.  "Do unto others" or "The Golden Rule."  That's why he said what you believe in isn't the important thing, it's what you DO.

Ah, that makes sense. Also, I completely forgot to say in my last post--I hope today is better for you! Real people do actually matter to me more than fictional ones in that way. :)

It still maybe seems like more of a big deal to me than it does to some, but maybe it is just supposed to be him the same guy, but a little wiser, and saying what Elizabeth needs to hear (despite it not really following what she said). To me it just doesn't seem like a statement I'd put in a pastor's mouth in those terms unless it was really significant, and also it seems like he's rejecting her obvious opening to counsel her, which seems like a huge change from the guy he was before--not just in terms of how he relates to the Jennings but in general. She's being so obvious in saying "How do I do this without God?" and speaking with the shaky voice again and listening to him so intensely like she's hanging on every word and he says she doesn't need God rather than trying to work that out with her or just offer to counsel her.

Then when he walks away she looks like she's trying to figure him out rather than just looking like she's been struck by his words and how they affected her before she nods and then it cuts away.

But I don't know, maybe I'm just always reading Pastor Tim and his faith differently than I'm supposed to. After all this has always been the character where the showrunners don't get why he's not likable when he seemed to be written as intentionally so to me. Maybe if it's totally normal for a good Pastor clean out a freshman's bank account it's just as normal for him to say believing in God and prayer doesn't matter and just mean that he thinks nonbelievers can be good people too.

[hippielamb]

On 5/26/2016 at 7:10 PM, Chaos Theory said:

For the record there is something called progressive Christianity which is characterized by a willingness to question tradition, acceptance of human diversity, a strong emphasis on social justice and care for the poor and the oppressed.   Progressive Christians have a deep belief in loving one another within the teachings of Jesus Christ.     Conservative Christians are all over the place but there are places you can find more progressive churches if you know where to look.   Pastor Tim has always struck me as a progressive christian that would more then appeal to a teenager passively raised by two Soviet Agents.  It would have struck false if she was outright right wing.   

I agree. He reminds me of hippie preachers I saw back in the '70's. Mind you, I was a kid then so it's foggy. But I saw these very liberal types who were trying to break away from the traditional church. There was music involved to appeal to kids of Paige's generation. The emphasis was on loving one another rather than condemning someone for not following the church rules. As someone who was raised in the extremely strict JW faith, it seemed like nirvana. 

On 5/26/2016 at 9:29 PM, sistermagpie said:

Also I love how Henry's just become completely like pleasure-seeking. Practically every time we see him, if he's not cheerfully complaining about some chore he has to do, he's about something he wants. Like here he was like "Stan was here? Did he drop off a video for me?" and then later Stan drops by his video. People like to say how Stan is like Henry's second father but it's more like he's his divorced dad  Like Henry seems to get to experience through him the dad who wants to be cool so is always entertaining him or giving him stuff.

I love Henry. He is so clueless yet I was the same way at that age. It's very believable for a kid to be all about videogames or tv. He's not going to care about political drama or what's going on with his parents. He has videogames to play and teachers to fantasize about. 

On 5/27/2016 at 2:02 AM, AliShibaz said:

I have always thought the casting of Noah was deliberate. He often comes across as a fairly dopey fellow. He fails to notice many things. He talks out of school. Despite what we've heard about his being a great undercover FBI agent, from all that we've seen, he's really not that great. I think the show runners gave us this intentionally to allow us to enjoy the humor of our stars living next door to an FBI agent who just can't seem to figure things out. His partner Adherhold seems like a very inexperienced agent compared to Stan but he figures out way more stuff before than does.

I always get a chuckle out of Stan watching movies and playing video games with a little kid.

I am not a fan of Stan, ever since season one he bugged me by killing that kgb guy. But I think characterwise it makes sense for him to like watching movies like he's a kid because when he went away prior to the series, Matthew would have been a kid. Part of the disconnect in season one was from him not knowing how to be with his family who were older and moved on without him. Maybe that's why he likes hanging out with Henry. 

On 5/27/2016 at 7:44 AM, Umbelina said:

That would be a different 80's than I lived through.  Many married couples might have a porn or X rated film or two around the house.  Hell, I used to find them when I babysat in the sixties.  The one Don had was completely low-key, or as Elizabeth said "strictly vanilla" stuff.  Now if they'd found a B&D film, they may have tried another play here, but that was nothing shocking.

Lol me too! And it was quite an eye opener. I think it was probably more common then because of the absence of the internet. 

[scartact]

15 hours ago, shura said:

All that said, I don't really have a problem with the Don operation. Yes, some things had to go exactly the right way for it to work, probably unlikely in real life, but this is fiction. It wasn't impossible for the operation to go like that, so that's where the story went. I enjoyed it.

Emphasis on the "fiction" for me! I get a slight eye twitch when someone says something wasn't realistic on a tv show, when for me a lot of the reality will come from how the world was built in the show. I do think there's a difference though between emotional realism and plot-level realism, and as long as the through-line of the emotional reality is present and makes sense for the respective characters, then I will more often be open to buying how the plot turns out. To me, that's also the heart of why character-based shows, more often than not, work better than shows fixated on plot. Ultimately, the Don operation works for me because I think I understand why the show wants to present it to us in the first place.

(Also, apologies for being a little sharp in my previous post! I just wasn't sure what you were getting at with that previous post.)

20 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I almost (almost because even if it's cold and dark, I do have a soul) think that it's the "make the world a better place" that's really the fantasy story. Elizabeth is doing horrible things to make the world a better place. Groovyhair is doing some useless and judgey things to make the world a better place. Paige outed her family and put them in danger. Alice threatened. Philip ruined Martha's life. Stan got Nina shipped off to the gulag and shot. In reality, we all have very little control over making the world a better place. It's too big, too vast, has too many different cultures and kinds of people. But Groovyhair kind of realized,"hey, I can make things better for my family. I can protect and love them." Elizabeth and Philip are doing that too. So maybe in the end, they'll reject the platitude and embrace their little unit as the core and soul, rather than the state (or religion or capitalism or whatever). 

This made me think about the show's own thematic underpinnings and I love what you said here and how this relates to all these different characters. We've seen so many of them commit greatly terrible acts in the name of their respective causes and a lot of the show wants to continually explore the limits of dogma. While the show has been great at not commenting and picking sides on what is the better ideology, there's something to be said about how I think the show believes that regardless of belief, it is always important to consider the people whose lives you effect.

[Umbelina]

I think Pastor Tim took a good look at what he'd been doing and preaching and realized he was NOT treating Paige's parents as he would want to be treated.  He was only saying the words, not doing the deeds.  He wouldn't want to live with a sword over his head.  He wouldn't want anyone trying to, even with the best of intentions, leading his child away from her parents.

In his terms, his religious beliefs finally clicked for him in a spiritual way, and I think Elizabeth responded to that.  He got that "Do unto others" was more important, that the teachings were more important in daily life than who said them.  That living his beliefs required him to put himself in the Jenning's shoes.  To his credit, he honestly did that.

[jjj]

Others have said this, but after the threat of sending the tape to the Justice Department, I am amazed that Pastor Tim, Alice, and their lawyer are still alive.  The KGB can find out who the lawyer is, one way or another (some ways are not at all pleasant; see Season One and the young mother who was killed and her baby shipped back to the homeland).  This is an extraordinary level of danger for the Jennings and the wider operations of the KGB, and in past season, KGB has dealt with potential threats and crises of conscious quickly and definitively. 

[madam magpie]

25 minutes ago, jjj said:

Others have said this, but after the threat of sending the tape to the Justice Department, I am amazed that Pastor Tim, Alice, and their lawyer are still alive.  The KGB can find out who the lawyer is, one way or another (some ways are not at all pleasant; see Season One and the young mother who was killed and her baby shipped back to the homeland).  This is an extraordinary level of danger for the Jennings and the wider operations of the KGB, and in past season, KGB has dealt with potential threats and crises of conscious quickly and definitively. 

I think it's evidence that the KGB really wants Paige. Her American citizenship and SS# must be worth the risk.

[hellmouse]

4 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I think it's evidence that the KGB really wants Paige. Her American citizenship and SS# must be worth the risk.

I agree. The KGB really wants her. They also want Philip and Elizabeth to keep working. Philip and Elizabeth love and want to protect Paige. If they are forced to choose between Paige and the KGB, I think they'd both choose her. So both sides are being accommodating of the other because the stakes are so high.

Edited May 29, 2016 by hellmouse
clarity

[kikaha]

I feel Philip and Elizabeth are like two jugglers, trying to keep 15 balls in the air.  The slightest miscalculation will send them all tumbling to the ground.  The latest absurdity -- dinner with the pastor and Stan -- pushed things a bit too far into the unbelievable basket for me.  

At some point Stan will learn who Philip and Elizabeth really are.  The feeling of betrayal will hit him like a 10-ton semi careening out of control. 

[Bubbetv]

I half wonder if Stan was setting up Oleg with that little speech -. Someone in the bushes taking a picture of the handshake? And i wonder if Stan gets close to nailing Phillip's identity, will it be Oleg confirming it for him right before Oleg shoots him...

[AliShibaz]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Pastor Tim took a good look at what he'd been doing and preaching and realized he was NOT treating Paige's parents as he would want to be treated.  He was only saying the words, not doing the deeds.  He wouldn't want to live with a sword over his head.  He wouldn't want anyone trying to, even with the best of intentions, leading his child away from her parents.

In his terms, his religious beliefs finally clicked for him in a spiritual way, and I think Elizabeth responded to that.  He got that "Do unto others" was more important, that the teachings were more important in daily life than who said them.  That living his beliefs required him to put himself in the Jenning's shoes.  To his credit, he honestly did that.

Well said. That was an eye-opener for me. Now what about Tim's wife? It's probably not fair to expect him to "minister" to his wife and explain (in much nicer terms) that she acted like a real shithead and no matter how many members of the Jennings family tells Tim & Alice that her actions were "understandable", she really needs to do something more to balance the scales. For one thing, she could ask P&E how they are feeling towards her and if there is anything she can do to atone for her (I'm at wits end trying to think of a way to describe her behavior that doesn't involve curse words). Alice  could admit to P&E that she behaved in a way that was contrary to her faith and she needs to ask them for forgiveness or explain she would like to know just what she could do to make things right with them.

I'm not suggesting she should offer to give them the tape or that they should ask her to hand it over. Isn't it strange that it somehow seems wrong for either party to break the ice and be the first one to talk about the tape? Besides which, how can P&E ever feel certain that all copies of the tape has been destroyed? On my darker days, I still feel the best solution would be my darkest solution. But if this were a real life incident, I don't think I'd feel right about doing that - and I can be a very nasty and vindictive person. But there is a big difference between wishing someone would disappear and taking a hand to help make that happen. I have never been forced to confront these darker aspects of my nature in real life. I view this as a real testament to the power of this show that I feel the need to do that now about a  TV show whereas I've never been forced to do that in real life.

Edited May 29, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Umbelina]

She did absolutely nothing wrong in making that tape.  Actually, it's the smartest thing she could have done.

The Jennings don't need to ask for it back, because they could always make another one anyway.

[Darrenbrett]

I agree with others who pointed out that Tim's behavior after his recent scare in Africa is different. He did come across more thoughtful; less smug; more humble in this episode. Which makes me wonder all the more: where exactly are the showrunners going with his character? He seems like much less of an imminent threat now. And that being the case, and assuming it stays the case, it seems the Centre is content to let it all be. I still feel like his character and his role in the story has taken a strange ziggzaggy trajectory. The showrunners have talked about how the story threads often go in directions they themselves don't expect. This seems to be one of those situations. Although in this particular case it has me scratching my head a little bit. Not sure where it's going. And not sure it's clear to the showrunners either. We shall see.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[sistermagpie]

53 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She did absolutely nothing wrong in making that tape.  Actually, it's the smartest thing she could have done.

Yeah, it's funny because I don't really like Alice but she's kind of the most sensible person in this whole mess at times. It seems like as a pastor's wife she sticks to this role of always having to support her husband, so her real personality often only comes out when he's away, at least in public. So her husband makes the decision to not turn in the KGB spies to the FBI at the height of the Cold War, and tells her about so now she's protecting them too. Then said husband decides he just has to go to Ethiopia shortly before they finally have a baby (I've always thought it was unusual that they didn't have a baby already given who they are etc.), takes an incredibly irresponsible risk and disappears.

So left alone without Tim not only does she need someone to blame but we probably see her real feelings about this whole situation--why are we protecting these nasty Russian spies? They're liars and killers, everybody knows that. Sorry Paige, I know it's not your fault...but let's face it I really don't care that much about one of my husband's many teenagers to not send your parents to jail if my husband doesn't come back.

So now there is I think something a little passive aggressive in her not specifically saying she's destroyed the tape or there never was one or whatever. Sure she could always make another one, but the fact that she's not actually going so far as to even say she's destroyed it makes it feel, I don't know, like she sees that's smart. Although Tim isn't saying anything about it either so I don't know. It seems like the two of them would be in very different places. His experience in Ethiopia was scarier, the death he thought he was facing was his own and it was his own fault. Alice is still probably the one who's more paranoid, and justifiably so. It seems at this point that she's the person who's dealing with what everyone would know, which is that the KGB is not the Peace Corps and whatever Philip and Elizabeth would be trying to do would be major espionage against her country, which is in a Cold War with theirs.

13 minutes ago, Darrenbrett said:

Which makes me wonder all the more: where exactly are the showrunners going with his character?

Yeah, I wonder if this whole thing is a one-off for this episode or something to set up a different relationship between Tim and the Jennings. It's happening in an ep where Paige finds out first-hand that her family actually is deadly, right after she discusses Tim and Alice as a threat and echoes her own earlier issues when she says "So you pretend to forgive them." So that sets up Tim honestly coming to the Jennings with his feelings and the Jennings, in Paige's view, "pretending" to forgive him, but apparently playing a longer game where the tape itself isn't most relevant.

And Paige is now getting listening to teachings from her mother about how the incident can be used to their advantage and offering her own intel. I almost wonder if Pastor Tim is being set up as an even more innocent victim with them having to kill him or something when he's opened his heart to them all or something, but we've already had better innocent victims in Martha and Young Hee and I can't see anybody caring too much about Pastor Tim even with the baby on the way.

It reminds me of how it always seemed like when Paige went to Tim and Alice as alternate parents it was really like she was taking a step back since Tim and Alice were flawless because she didn't know them. Now she's getting to know her parents a lot better but Tim and Alice are flawed without Paige really understanding them the same way.

Edited May 29, 2016 by sistermagpie

[gwhh]

I love the face Elizabeth makes when she stabs the guy! 

That gotcha hurt!

 

[Bubbetv]

Describing this scene, and trying to get my daughter to check out this series, I told her that Felicity is like Chuck Norris, only pregnant and in heels!

Keri is so badass!! 

[hellmouse]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So now there is I think something a little passive aggressive in her not specifically saying she's destroyed the tape or there never was one or whatever. Sure she could always make another one, but the fact that she's not actually going so far as to even say she's destroyed it makes it feel, I don't know, like she sees that's smart. Although Tim isn't saying anything about it either so I don't know. It seems like the two of them would be in very different places. His experience in Ethiopia was scarier, the death he thought he was facing was his own and it was his own fault. Alice is still probably the one who's more paranoid, and justifiably so. It seems at this point that she's the person who's dealing with what everyone would know, which is that the KGB is not the Peace Corps and whatever Philip and Elizabeth would be trying to do would be major espionage against her country, which is in a Cold War with theirs.

 

Yeah, I think Alice is justifiably paranoid. They are KGB spies! But Tim thinks they should be given a chance, so she follows along. She seemed so reluctant to go in to the kitchen to talk to Elizabeth at the dinner. Tim kind of gave looked at her and nodded as if to say she should go in there, like they had discussed it, that once Elizabeth was alone Alice would talk to her. And Alice's reactions and subsequent words to Elizabeth reminded me of Paige being sent to talk to Pastor Tim after he knew their secret. They're not great at dissembling.