S04.E11: Dinner for Seven

[numbnut]

Just when Paige was entertaining the thought of her parents being normal... Oh well. I can't wait to hear how Elizabeth explains her ninja skills.

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Not sure what to make with Stan meeting with Oleg either.  

While it wasn't Stan's intention, I think it's a step toward Oleg being a double agent.

Edited May 26, 2016 by numbnut

[Blakeston]

1 hour ago, gwhh said:

That food panty part took me back. 

Sounds like I missed one of the more memorable scenes of the episode! ;-)

[snarktini]

18 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Paige was appropriately terrified when Elizabeth just killed the shit out of the mugger. I'm sure she's glad that Elizabeth saved them, but usually you'd expect someone who knows a thing or two about self defense to simply dispatch the attacker and immobilize him, not flat out stab him in the throat.  

I had the same thought. Surely should could have prevailed without stabbing him? I can't be sure of that and I acknowledge she was literally defending their lives, but It felt like very out of control moment for Elizabeth.

[Umbelina]

I hope they send a clean up team, because that had to happen very close to the church.  If they cops know who the dead guy hang out with they'll pull him in, and get the best description of the real Elizabeth ever.  Now, how could the FBI get involved?  Because the Jennings are sure mentioning what church they go to quite a bit, to both Mathew and Stan.  "Reed Street Church."

OR, Stan could just be reading the paper and mention the unsolved murder by the Reed Street Church in passing to Mathew, and Mathew blurts out "Hey!  That's where I took Paige!"  Or Stan remembers the Pastor mentioning it at dinner...

Noose keeps closing in...

5 minutes ago, numbnut said:

Just when Paige was entertaining the thought of her parents being normal... Oh well. I can't wait to hear how Elizabeth explains her ninja skills.

While it wasn't Stan's intention, I think it's a step toward Oleg being a double agent.

I wondered about that possibility as well.

3 minutes ago, snarktini said:

I had the same thought. Surely should could have prevailed without stabbing him? I can't be sure of that and I acknowledge she was literally defending their lives, but It felt like very out of control moment for Elizabeth.

I think the guy pulled a knife on Elizabeth, and she was worried when the other guy got up (he could have grabbed Paige!) so she finished it.

[crashdown]

1 minute ago, snarktini said:

had the same thought. Surely should could have prevailed without stabbing him? I can't be sure of that and I acknowledge she was literally defending their lives, but It felt like very out of control moment for Elizabeth.

She did it instinctively, right after the guy asked Paige how old she was.  Elizabeth had just told Paige that she and Philip would do anything to protect their family, and she demonstrated that with a ferocity that probably went well beyond what good sense would dictate.  Killing the guy right in front of her daughter clearly wasn't part of the plan, and it's not going to make things any easier between the two of them.  But it was a visceral reaction, and one that's very much in keeping with both the person that Elizabeth has always been and the person that she's slowly becoming.

[madam magpie]

7 minutes ago, snarktini said:

I had the same thought. Surely should could have prevailed without stabbing him? I can't be sure of that and I acknowledge she was literally defending their lives, but It felt like very out of control moment for Elizabeth.

I thought it was very controlled and deliberate. I took martial arts for years, and we were always taught that the goal was to neutralize the attacker. If he had a knife, you were to take the knife and stab him with it. We were taught specific techniques for that purpose. You hope that eventually the technique will become instinct. Elizabeth just didn't half-ass it. There's no way for her to know that this guy won't get up and come after them again. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[Conan Troutman]

4 minutes ago, snarktini said:

I had the same thought. Surely should could have prevailed without stabbing him? I can't be sure of that and I acknowledge she was literally defending their lives, but It felt like very out of control moment for Elizabeth.

I wouldn't say out of control, but also not really deliberate. More like, instinctive. Which makes it all that much worse - to Paige it has to look exactly like it is: Elizabeth' training took over, and that training made her go into kill mode, not self defense mode. 

I doubt anything plot wise will come out of it, though. The other guy will probably just make a run for it and the police will never catch him. But even if they do, what's important is the impact on Paige. 

[shura]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I hope they send a clean up team, because that had to happen very close to the church.  If they cops know who the dead guy hang out with they'll pull him in, and get the best description of the real Elizabeth ever.  Now, how could the FBI get involved?  Because the Jennings are sure mentioning what church they go to quite a bit, to both Mathew and Stan.  "Reed Street Church."

OR, Stan could just be reading the paper and mention the unsolved murder by the Reed Street Church in passing to Mathew, and Mathew blurts out "Hey!  That's where I took Paige!"  Or Stan remembers the Pastor mentioning it at dinner...

Noose keeps closing in...

Why, what noose? They were being mugged and worse, she had to protect her daughter, she fought, it was a blur... She killed a guy in a professional manner? Wow, I guess things happen when your instincts take over....

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

I wouldn't say out of control, but also not really deliberate. More like, instinctive. Which makes it all that much worse - to Paige it has to look exactly like it is: Elizabeth' training took over, and that training made her go into kill mode, not self defense mode. 

I doubt anything plot wise will come out of it, though. The other guy will probably just make a run for it and the police will never catch him. But even if they do, what's important is the impact on Paige. 

Nah, I'm rewatching last week's episode right now, and mentioning the name of the Church to Mathew, then taking him there, AND the dinner tonight?  Too coincidental for me.

2 minutes ago, shura said:

Why, what noose? They were being mugged and worse, she had to protect her daughter, she fought, it was a blur... She killed a guy in a professional manner? Wow, I guess things happen when your instincts take over....

I mean the stuff that can expose them keeps getting closer and closer...they are slipping up some, and Stan is not stupid.  A simple description could nail them right now.  Mother, daughter, pretty, slim both with long brown hair RIGHT when Paige left the Church?

Edited May 26, 2016 by Umbelina

[crashdown]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Nah, I'm rewatching last week's episode right now, and mentioning the name of the Church to Mathew, then taking him there, AND the dinner tonight?  Too coincidental for me.

Stan also has been shown to have pretty good instincts--he might be a social dolt, but he's good at his job.  He's going to put the pieces together soon, although it's looking like that's an arc for next season.

[RedHawk]

The food pantry isn't located at the church. The church is in a nice suburban part of Falls Church, Virginia. The food pantry looked to be in some neglected part of DC, or at least we viewers were to understand that it was in a "bad part of town".

[izabella]

I fully expect something to come of Pastor Tim and his wife meeting the FBI agent who lives across the street from the Russian spies they've been dealing with. 

Didn't Patty tell Young-Hee that she didn't have a mother?  That it was just her brother and dad?  Some horrible sob story that made Young-Hee remark how Patty brings a party down.  I guess they counted on Young-Hee never mentioning that to her husband.  Their plan had a lot of holes.

[crashdown]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

Didn't Patty tell Young-Hee that she didn't have a mother?  That it was just her brother and dad?  Some horrible sob story that made Young-Hee remark how Patty brings a party down.  I guess they counted on Young-Hee never mentioning that to her husband.  Their plan had a lot of holes.

Yes, she did, but frumpy computer expert lady was introduced as Patty's stepmother, not her mother . It's consistent with the idea that Patty grew up with her brother and her dad, who later remarried.  Elizabeth is not weak on the details! :-)

[RedHawk]

The woman with Patty's father was introduced by Patty's brother as his stepmother. So Young Hee might see it as Patty not getting along with a stepmother or accepting her as part of the family.

I do feel that we're going to see Don and Young Hee again, at least I hope so. I kind of want Don to be smart enough to figure out the whole Patty thing was suspicious. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by RedHawk

[madam magpie]

10 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

I wouldn't say out of control, but also not really deliberate. More like, instinctive. Which makes it all that much worse - to Paige it has to look exactly like it is: Elizabeth' training took over, and that training made her go into kill mode, not self defense mode. 

I doubt anything plot wise will come out of it, though. The other guy will probably just make a run for it and the police will never catch him. But even if they do, what's important is the impact on Paige. 

The instinct is the control, though. That's the point of her training, to have her instincts take over in a deliberate way, rather than have her have to think about what she's doing or flail around for a solution. It's like hitting the brake or swerving in a in a car to avoid an accident. The more experience and training you have driving, the better your instincts. Young drivers overcompensate with a dramatic, out-of-control swerve or slam on the brakes. Experienced drivers react with just the right amount to neutralize the problem. The guy came at her with a knife. To neutralize the problem, she takes it and stabs him with it. Fight over.

I really I have no idea what's coming at this point, though I do think this will affect Paige somehow.

Edited May 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[Umbelina]

Just now, RedHawk said:

The food pantry isn't located at the church. The church is in a nice suburban part of Falls Church, Virginia. The food pantry looked to be in some neglected part of DC, or at least we viewers were to understand that it was in a "bad part of town".

Thanks, I missed that, I thought it was in the Church basement.  I'm going to watch again in a few.

Still, Paige had just left with Elizabeth, it wouldn't take that much digging.  Simply the news article saying "Murder Next to The Food Pantry, run by The Reed Street Church."  Anyway, hopefully the clean up team came, but the anvils were there for Mathew and/or Stan to recognize the name.  It explains the dinner.  Also, the Pastors may be wondering as well, they would be sure to hear about it.

[hellmouse]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I hope they send a clean up team, because that had to happen very close to the church.  If they cops know who the dead guy hang out with they'll pull him in, and get the best description of the real Elizabeth ever.  Now, how could the FBI get involved?  Because the Jennings are sure mentioning what church they go to quite a bit, to both Mathew and Stan.  "Reed Street Church."

OR, Stan could just be reading the paper and mention the unsolved murder by the Reed Street Church in passing to Mathew, and Mathew blurts out "Hey!  That's where I took Paige!"  Or Stan remembers the Pastor mentioning it at dinner...

Noose keeps closing in...

I actually think it wasn't that close to the church. Pastor Tim mentions a van, so it sounds like there is a group that takes a van from the Falls Church suburb into the city to work at the soup kitchen. Elizabeth was there to pick up Paige instead of her taking the van. 

Still, it is not good.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, izabella said:

I fully expect something to come of Pastor Tim and his wife meeting the FBI agent who lives across the street from the Russian spies they've been dealing with. 

Didn't Patty tell Young-Hee that she didn't have a mother?  That it was just her brother and dad?  Some horrible sob story that made Young-Hee remark how Patty brings a party down.  I guess they counted on Young-Hee never mentioning that to her husband.  Their plan had a lot of holes.

Nope, they covered it!  That was her brothers STEP mother! 

I wondered why they included that detail, and you just reminded me.  It's all in the details...

[hellmouse]

3 minutes ago, izabella said:

I fully expect something to come of Pastor Tim and his wife meeting the FBI agent who lives across the street from the Russian spies they've been dealing with. 

Didn't Patty tell Young-Hee that she didn't have a mother?  That it was just her brother and dad?  Some horrible sob story that made Young-Hee remark how Patty brings a party down.  I guess they counted on Young-Hee never mentioning that to her husband.  Their plan had a lot of holes.

Yes, that's what Patty told Young-Hee. In this episode, the woman was introduced as the step-mother. 

[Conan Troutman]

2 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

The food pantry isn't located at the church. The church is in a nice suburban part of Falls Church, Virginia. The food pantry looked to be in some neglected part of DC, or at least we viewers were to understand that it was in a "bad part of town".

That was my thinking. There are only two ways Elizabeth could b connected to the crime scene: The other guy, who most likely won't talk, and Pastor Tim. That one is a real possibility though, as he knows about Elizabeth. Though I'm not sure if he knew where she parked or if he would ever connect the dots. You'd think that wasn't the first dead guy found in that neighborhood. 

1 minute ago, izabella said:

Didn't Patty tell Young-Hee that she didn't have a mother?  That it was just her brother and dad?  Some horrible sob story that made Young-Hee remark how Patty brings a party down.  I guess they counted on Young-Hee never mentioning that to her husband.  Their plan had a lot of holes.

Philip said step mother. So that checks out. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Conan Troutman said:

That was my thinking. There are only two ways Elizabeth could b connected to the crime scene: The other guy, who most likely won't talk, and Pastor Tim. That one is a real possibility though, as he knows about Elizabeth. Though I'm not sure if he knew where she parked or if he would ever connect the dots. You'd think that wasn't the first dead guy found in that neighborhood. 

Philip said step mother. So that checks out. 

He'll talk if they try to charge him with murder.  If the two hang out together, which it seems they do, someone would know and eventually the cops would find out where to find him.

But yeah, there is also the simple fact that Paige and Elizabeth were in the area and a very brutal and fast murder occurred and both Stan and Mathew know about the church.  A simple news article or TV news thing could do it.  That said, IF it happens, I expect it to play out like the Mail Robot, filed away for one more piece of the puzzle if and when they do put the pieces together about the Jennings.

Because, YAY!  Two more seasons!

[hellmouse]

22 minutes ago, numbnut said:

Just when Paige was entertaining the thought of her parents being normal... Oh well. I can't wait to hear how Elizabeth explains her ninja skills.

While it wasn't Stan's intention, I think it's a step toward Oleg being a double agent.

I think Stan earned some respect from Oleg in that scene. 

I loved the way Costa Ronin was positioned at the end of the scene. He looked like the hero of some film noir detective movie. 

[RedHawk]

5 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I actually think it wasn't that close to the church. Pastor Tim mentions a van, so it sounds like there is a group that takes a van from the Falls Church suburb into the city to work at the soup kitchen. Elizabeth was there to pick up Paige instead of her taking the van. 

Still, it is not good.

Right, the food pantry is a place where several churches seem to take different nights to package and hand out the food. It's not run by or connected only to the Reed Street Church.

[Conan Troutman]

3 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

The instinct is the control, though. That's the point of her training, to have her instincts take over in a deliberate way, rather than have her have to think about what she's doing or flail around for a solution. It's like hitting the brake or swerving in a in a car to avoid an accident. The more experience and training you have driving, the better your instincts. Young drivers overcompensate with a dramatic, out-of-control swerve or slam on the brakes. Experienced drivers react with just the right amount to neutralize the problem. The guy came at her with a knife. To neutralize the problem, she takes it and stabs him with it. Fight over.

I really I have no idea what's coming at this point, though I do think this will affect Paige somehow.

That raises a few questions though. Are you really taught in a self defense class to aim for the throat? It surely would neutralize the target, but aren't there other spots to strike that are non-lethal, yet have the same effect? And why would she deliberately chose to kill him when she knew full well that Paige was standing right next to her? Maybe it was more deliberate than I first assumed, but that doesn't really make Paige think differently about it. 

[Umbelina]

Because he saw her, and she needed to end him to fight the other guy who was getting up if needed?

[gwhh]

26 minutes ago, snarktini said:

I had the same thought. Surely should could have prevailed without stabbing him? I can't be sure of that and I acknowledge she was literally defending their lives, but It felt like very out of control moment for Elizabeth.

I think her training just took over.  Soviet specials forces only teach 2 types of hand to hand combat. Combat for killing and combat for capture. 

Plus it was self defense (for once).  I am sure if the police come they would be like how you learn to do that lady?   It would have led to a lot questions from a lot of people.  So they had to high tail it out of there fast. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by gwhh

[Conan Troutman]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He'll talk if they try to charge him with murder.  If the two hang out together, which it seems they do, someone would know and eventually the cops would find out where to find him.

But yeah, there is also the simple fact that Paige and Elizabeth were in the area and a very brutal and fast murder occurred and both Stan and Mathew know about the church.  A simple news article or TV news thing could do it.  That said, IF it happens, I expect it to play out like the Mail Robot, filed away for one more piece of the puzzle if and when they do put the pieces together about the Jennings.

Because, YAY!  Two more seasons!

I don't know if the cops would even look that closely. The guy probably had quite the record, so I can see this thing basically becoming a footnote on page three: "Homeless thief/rapist killed in bad neighborhood. Whatever. Here are the lottery numbers:"

I agree on it becoming yet another piece of the puzzle though, that seems to be a likely outcome.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Because he saw her, and she needed to end him to fight the other guy who was getting up if needed?

But there has to be a less likely to be lethal way to do this. I'm not blaming Elizabeth for killing him. But Paige is going to have the same reaction I did: "Whoa there, you sure as hell didn't hesitate to ram that knife in his throat!"

Edited May 26, 2016 by Conan Troutman

[RedHawk]

 I think Paige is more likely at first to ask Elizabeth why she didn't call the police since it was obviously self-defense. Then of course she would realize that her parents can't get involved with the police in anyway, even if it's a situation where they were doing nothing illegal.

I just keep thinking about Elizabeth feigning shock and  answering Paige's question last week, "That's crazy! Of course we don't kill people." Heh. 

[SlovakPrincess]

According to Stan, Gaad and Philip met at a barbecue once?  I completely don't remember that.  

The Stan / Oleg scene was pretty cool.  Liked Stan finally alluding to killing Vlad and how terrible his (Stan's) actions were.  

Dinner was deliciously awkward.   Oh, Henry.   He's so adorably clueless.

Edited May 26, 2016 by SlovakPrincess

[gwhh]

If Stan thinks he feels bad now. Wait tell he found out what his pals next door REALLY do for a living!  

[Umbelina]

18 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Right, the food pantry is a place where several churches seem to take different nights to package and hand out the food. It's not run by or connected only to the Reed Street Church.

I'm not sure if it's several churches.

Elizabeth asked Paige how it went at church and Paige just said, "They made a schedule for the food pantry downtown" and that she would work there two days a week.  She didn't say the Reed St Church would handle things 2 nights a week, she said that was her schedule.  Not conclusive though.

(I'm watching with that in mind this time.  Dinner coming up!)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Umbelina

[Gella]

I usually love the little details in this show, but I am sorry, Gabriel, Russians don't eat "pierogy" for breakfast. There is a big pirog, little pirozhki, and then there are those things you offered Elizabeth, which are either vareniki (in Russia) or galushki (in Ukraine).
That was seriously the first cultural mis-step I had seen so far.
Elizabeth did what she had to do to protect her daughter. I am sure Paige will make a big deal out of it, but frankly she should be too shocked in the moment to think straight. Those guys were not interested in taking the money and leaving. Paige had to realise how badly it could have turned out for both her and her mother.

[madam magpie]

26 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

That raises a few questions though. Are you really taught in a self defense class to aim for the throat? It surely would neutralize the target, but aren't there other spots to strike that are non-lethal, yet have the same effect? And why would she deliberately chose to kill him when she knew full well that Paige was standing right next to her? Maybe it was more deliberate than I first assumed, but that doesn't really make Paige think differently about it. 

Yes. We were taught to aim for the throat...and groin, knees, eyes, nose, kidneys. All of those are sensitive areas that will best weaken your attacker. I didn't take just self-defense, though. It was traditional combat martial arts. Elizabeth would be trained in a combat style. I was nowhere near as proficient as many and never got a black belt, but the people who did trained for years. Not that you go around fighting people for fun or Soviet spying, of course. We were also taught to do exactly what Elizabeth tried to do: give him your wallet, your car keys, whatever. If you can run, always run. The best fight is the one you never participate in. But if you have to fight, you fight to the end, which is the moment that you are safe from further attack.

Plus, in this case, there were two attackers. I know Elizabeth is a super spy, but a normal person alone protecting a useless child like Paige can't really fight two people at once. You have to concentrate on and completely disarm one of them before you can deal with the second...or you get lucky and the second guy runs away.

She did a pretty choreographed technique to take that guy out. There are many techniques like that, ranging from simple (one or two moves) to very complex. And then, of course, you may have to spar. But the goal is that the movements are controlled and become second nature. That's how her response looked to me. Plus, it was so cool and fluid!! Girl's got technique and style! I suspect one reason Keri Russell can make it look so good is that she trained as a dancer. In my class, the former dancers and gymnasts were always the most amazing martial artists to watch.

Edited May 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[BW Manilowe]

2 hours ago, gwhh said:

I like how Elizabeth shows up at pastor Tim office and is like just here to pick up Paige.  You could almost hear her mentally add to that "not here to murder you and your nosey wife with your own religious symbols." 

I am sure no one at dinner other than Henry and Stan enjoyed it! 

That food panty part took me back.  My uncle church use to hold food drives and picks ups in this old factory building that some member of his church owned and let them use for free.  It was basically a condemned building he could not sell and the city did not want.  Me and my mother would go drop off food she collected from people she worked with.  We always joked our car was gone as soon as we turned our back on it.    It was in a part of town so bad.  Even in middle of the day!  The police went around in pairs to be safe.

I like how Paige was working mom to let her drive AFTER giving her the info from Stan son about Martha! 

I do hope Elizabeth is running a game on Pastor grooveryhair about got and being conflicted in her mission!!

What did Elizabeth hand that one mugger and than take back off of her after she stabbed him? 

She gave him her wallet to get rid of him, then took it back so the cops, when they investigated the death, had no clues.

[Conan Troutman]

3 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Yes. We were taught to aim for the throat...and groin, knees, eyes, nose, kidneys. All of those are sensitive areas that will best weaken your attacker.

Sure, but are you taught to stab the guy in the throat with a knife? That seemed to be a little bit more than your regular self defense advice. 

[madam magpie]

4 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Sure, but are you taught to stab the guy in the throat with a knife? That seemed to be a little bit more than your regular self defense advice. 

Yes. I learned a knife technique that ended with cutting the attacker's throat. Another one cut the artery in the groin. Also you're really mixing up self defense and combat martial arts. Elizabeth didn't train in self defense. She trained for combat.

Edited May 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[hellmouse]

At the start of the dinner scene, I loved how Stan rubbed his hands together after hanging up his jacket and heading in to the dining room. He really was happy to be there for dinner. 

If we think it's painful to watch the long con on Young-Hee and Don play out, imagine how painful it will be to see Stan's realization about the Jenningses someday. I will need some anti anxiety medication before that!

I also keep thinking about how Philip will react when he hears that Stan had dinner with Martha's father. Will he ask Gabriel if the Centre has contacted her parents? Will he decide to contact them on his own, as Clark? And if they haven't contacted the parents, on top of them possibly using his report to target Gaad, will it increase his distrust of Gabriel?

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

Sure, but are you taught to stab the guy in the throat with a knife? That seemed to be a little bit more than your regular self defense advice. 

I was taught how to kill them as well.  It's been ages, but yes, especially for a woman in a fight, brute strength and overpowering a man is pretty much a joke.  The nose pushed into the brain, etc.  It's been a long time since I was trained in defense, but it was done with a sense of reality, not "being nice."  Ditto with shooting someone, if you aim it, shoot it, if you shoot it, empty it.  Then again, I had an ex marine training me.

[madam magpie]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I was taught how to kill them as well.  It's been ages, but yes, especially for a woman in a fight, brute strength and overpowering a man is pretty much a joke.  The nose pushed into the brain, etc.  It's been a long time since I was trained in defense, but it was done with a sense of reality, not "being nice."  Ditto with shooting someone, if you aim it, shoot it, if you shoot it, empty it.  Then again, I had an ex marine training me.

Definitely. We had gun techniques where you had to disarm your attacker, and if you didn't "shoot" at the end, you'd fail in a test. 

This isn't your average one-off, self-defense class at the Y, obviously, but that's not at all what Elizabeth does.

Edited May 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[Conan Troutman]

2 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Yes. I learned a knife technique that ended with cutting the attacker's throat. Another one cut the artery in the groin. Also you're really mixing up self defense and combat martial arts. Elizabeth didn't train in self defense. She trained for combat.

 

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I was taught how to kill them as well.  It's been ages, but yes, especially for a woman in a fight, brute strength and overpowering a man is pretty much a joke.  The nose pushed into the brain, etc.  It's been a long time since I was trained in defense, but it was done with a sense of reality, not "being nice."  Ditto with shooting someone, if you aim it, shoot it, if you shoot it, empty it.  Then again, I had an ex marine training me.

 

Fair enough. So I guess this would make for a plausible explanation from Elizabeth then. Paige will probably still be more suspicious about her parents claim not to kill people, but the fallout from that scene will likely be less severe than I first imagined. 

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

 

 

Fair enough. So I guess this would make for a plausible explanation from Elizabeth then. Paige will probably still be more suspicious about her parents claim not to kill people, but the fallout from that scene will likely be less severe than I first imagined. 

It could still be severe.  She watched someone die.  That's a very big thing.

Another thing my marine told me was that it would be easy to kill someone the first time, empty the gun, etc.  It was the second time, if it ever came up, that would be hard.  As Madame Magpie said, first training is to run, escape, never be taken to a second location, but if you have to fight, fight for real.

My training was more self defense, but the "combat" side came in from my trainer.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Umbelina

[BW Manilowe]

24 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

According to Stan, Gaad and Philip met at a barbecue once?  I completely don't remember that.  

The Stan / Oleg scene was pretty cool.  Liked Stan finally alluding to killing Vlad and how terrible his (Stan's) actions were.  

Dinner was deliciously awkward.   Oh, Henry.   He's so adorably clueless.

The barbecue was thrown by the Beemans in S1, for Stan's FBI colleagues; the Jennings were invited so they could meet new people. It was a kinda big thing in 1 of the eps.

[madam magpie]

6 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

 

 

Fair enough. So I guess this would make for a plausible explanation from Elizabeth then. Paige will probably still be more suspicious about her parents claim not to kill people, but the fallout from that scene will likely be less severe than I first imagined. 

I hope that's true because what Elizabeth did there was totally different from any other killing she's done on the show. She should be lauded for this one, and Paige should see her as heroic, like Philip with Timochev. And in the end, it would be cool if instead of being horrified (beyond seeing her first dead body), Paige began to see her mother with more depth, like Elizabeth did with Philip after Timochev. But you know, it's Paige, so...

Edited May 26, 2016 by madam magpie

[SlovakPrincess]

Just now, BW Manilowe said:

The barbecue was thrown by the Beemans in S1, for Stan's FBI colleagues; the Jennings were invited so they could meet new people. It was a kinda big thing in 1 of the eps.

Thanks!  So many twists and turns through the seasons that I had forgotten all about that!

[madam magpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It could still be severe.  She watched someone die.  That's a very big thing.

Another thing my marine told me was that it would be easy to kill someone the first time, empty the gun, etc.  It was the second time, if it ever came up, that would be hard.  As Madame Magpie said, first training is to run, escape, never be taken to a second location, but if you have to fight, fight for real.

Ha! "Never go willingly to crime scene #2" was drilled into us from day one! I think your marine and my martial arts instructors were cut from the same cloth. 

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I hope that's true because what Elizabeth did there was totally different from any other killing she's done on the show. She should be lauded for this one, and Paige should see her as heroic, like Philip with Timochev. And in the end, it would be cool if instead of being horrified, Paige began to see her mother with more depth, like Elizabeth did with Philip after Timochev. But you know, it's Paige, so...

It would be nice, but I think I'll understand if Paige is in shock watching someone die.  I was in shock seeing a body in a coffin at her age.  Death is huge.  This death?  Gory, scary, and she was right there.

I don't think she's smart enough to realize killing him was Elizabeth's only option at that point, because of the second guy, and her helpless daughter not having the sense to run to the car, or do anything to stay out of the second guy's reach.

3 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Ha! "Never go willingly to crime scene #2" was drilled into us from day one! I think your marine and my martial arts instructors were cut from the same cloth. 

Did you get the run in a zig zag unpredictable pattern rather than get into a vehicle with someone aiming a gun at you, duck between cars in a parking lot abduction, keys as weapons, drive to a police station or public place if you are alone in a car at night and the blue and reds are flashing in an unmarked car?  Ha.

I really should brush up.

A bullet may hit you but it's unlikely to kill you, and the noise will bring onlookers that will make the guy leave...so yeah, even with a gun in your face, RUN rather than go where he plans on taking you.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Umbelina

[madam magpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It would be nice, but I think I'll understand if Paige is in shock watching someone die.  I was in shock seeing a body in a coffin at her age.  Death is huge.  This death?  Gory, scary, and she was right there.

I don't think she's smart enough to realize killing him was Elizabeth's only option at that point, because of the second guy, and her helpless daughter not having the sense to run to the car, or do anything to stay out of the second guy's reach.

All true. I know. I can't even look at dead animals. But I hope it! Elizabeth deserves credit for this one. 

[Conan Troutman]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It could still be severe.  She watched someone die.  That's a very big thing.

That part's still there, yes. At least she can point out that it's normal to have that type of training without having to be a trained assassin, which I doubted at first. I guess it also depends if she can act like she didn't do it on a regular basis. Paige may be willing to swallow the first one, but if Elizabeth just shrugs it off as business as usual, it won't go down well at all. Elizabeth is a pretty great actress though, so that shouldn't be the problem.

2 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I hope that's true because what Elizabeth did there was totally different from any other killing she's done on the show. She should be lauded for this one, and Paige should see her as heroic, like Philip with Timochev. And in the end, it would be cool if instead of being horrified, Paige began to see her mother with more depth, like Elizabeth did with Philip after Timochev. But you know, it's Paige, so...

If that scene had come in the episode directly after they bonded at the bowling alley, maybe I could see that. But we got it right in the episode after Philip and Elizabeth told Mrs. Groovyhair how absurd the thought is that they could kill people, so I guess that's not how it's going to play out. 

[Umbelina]

Yeah, the guy still had hold of the knife when Elizabeth twisted it back into his neck, if she hadn't he could have gotten in a disabling punch or overpowered her.  She was quicker, and did not hesitate.

My cousin used to tell me TV and movie fights were stupid, that almost every fight he'd ever seen or been in was won or lost in that first punch.  The rest, what little of it there usually is?  Just clean up.

[VCRTracking]

I've been conditioned by TV and movies that whenever I see one or two female characters walking down a city street in a sketchy neighborhood at night, that they are going to be attacked by a mugger/rapist so I was expecting something.  Paige seeing her mom be a badass would've been awesome(like the Parr kids in THE INCREDIBLES) if she hadn't killed one of them.

I was amused by Phillip, Gregory, and some female KGB(I thought it was Claudia but a review confirmed it wasn't) little grieving family routine while feeling so bad for poor Don.

The FBI are starting to get wise to the mail robot murder.

Edited May 26, 2016 by VCRTracking