S11.E22: We Happy Few

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, McKinley said:

I took the scene as Amara killing Lucifer.  The white light out of the eyes and mouth are consistent with other angel deaths (although faster than most others).

All the other angel deaths had their burned wings to show really probably most likely 99% dead LOL.

If that is Lucifer's True Death it sucked. That character deserves a bigger death. IMO.

[McKinley]

But I thought that Lucifer lost his wings (the original “Fall”) so he would not leave a wing pattern behind.  

[catrox14]

Not AFAIK in this show's lore. He was locked in the Cage. And in the Fall, Metatron created hw as in the Cage so his wings would be intact which is why he can teleport and Castiel couldn't

Edited May 21, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Maybe Amara just banished him somewhere.  Regardless of whether he's actually dead or just back in the cage, I don't need to see him again anytime soon.  

The more I think about it the more pissed I am that Sam went behind Dean's back to talk to God about taking on the Mark.  Dean had totally come clean with Sam regarding his concerns about his feelings for Amara, so there was no reason for Sam not to openly discuss that with him.  I know...dramatic effect and all that, but I still think it was bullshit.  The writers frequently have Sam do or say things that make me think he's a dick, and it's annoying. Maybe my opinion is skewed because while I like both brothers, I am definitely more of a Dean fan.  And I'm not implying that Dean's never an asshole, because he certainly can be, but the writers definitely tend to fuck with Sam's character (as in mental and moral qualities) more than Dean's, I think.  I wish they'd stop.

[BlueMeanie]

When Castiel died, we didn't see burned wings.

[MysteryGuest]

Cas has lost his mojo so many times, I can't remember if he had it when he died, or not.  I guess it wouldn't be shocking to learn the show isn't always consistent.

[ZennyKenny]

Honestly this thread says a lot about what's wrong with the show. People asking if Amara killed Lucifer, if he got banished somewhere, if Castiel was effected, etc. And we shouldn't be. The fact that people are confused is a failure on the show's part, to communicate the story effectively.

This whole episode seems to embody this. Sam said that he and Dean already discussed him taking the mark, huh? Dean lies to Sam all the time, what? Dean shrugs off Sam's decision to take on the mark, say what now?

Your writing can piss people off, sure; but it shouldn't leave people confused if you didn't intend it to.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, BlueMeanie said:

When Castiel died, we didn't see burned wings.

We didn't see Cas die the first time in s4 only told by Chuck that the archangels exploded him. In Swan Song, Lucifer destroyed Cas at the molecular level. Blew him apart wings and all. No other angel has been killed the way Cas was that I can recall.

We saw Gabriel's glowing face and eyes and burned wings because he was killed by Lucifer with an angel blade. So to me Lucifer's death here looked more like the traditional death IF it was a death and God didn't have some power to intervene and send Lucifer elsewhere.

Edited May 21, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Honestly this thread says a lot about what's wrong with the show. People asking if Amara killed Lucifer, if he got banished somewhere, if Castiel was effected, etc. And we shouldn't be. The fact that people are confused is a failure on the show's part, to communicate the story effectively.

This whole episode seems to embody this. Sam said that he and Dean already discussed him taking the mark, huh? Dean lies to Sam all the time, what? Dean shrugs off Sam's decision to take on the mark, say what now?

Your writing can piss people off, sure; but it shouldn't leave people confused if you didn't intend it to.

And this makes me think there is more to this than meets the eye. Unless Dean's brain is damaged and he can't remember conversations he has with Sam, then IMO Sam lied to Dean about discussing it. I feel like Dean was so off in this whole episode it was like he was stoned or something. The ONLY moment I felt like Dean was Dean was in his scene with Crowley.

[MysteryGuest]

It certainly could be all smoke and mirrors until the big reveal next week, but at this point, I'm chalking it up to just bad writing.  I absolutely hope I'm wrong, and that they plan to blow us away with next week's episode.  I'll happily eat crow if they've been fooling us all this time.  I just want the show to be good.

[McKinley]

Yeah, the writing for this ep was sloppy in a number of areas.  Hopefully it’s because they were spending more time and energy on next week’s episode.  This episode felt like it was primarily designed to take the big players off of the board, leaving our core rag-tag group to go up against the Darkness.

Possibly Cas will tell us in the next ep what happened to Lucifer.  

It is really weird that Sam tells Dean that they talked about the MoC, but we the viewers never saw that convo.  With all the talking going on in recent eps, you would think there would have been time to have squeezed that in somewhere.  But in the end, I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable that Dean would acquiesce to letting Sam take it on - after all, we’re talking about the destruction of the entire world otherwise, so the choice is marked or dead.  And there really aren’t any other options - Lucifer can’t take it, since he already had it and apparently there’s a no give-backsies rule; presumably Crowley or Rowena can’t take it because they’re not “worthy;” and Cas is otherwise occupied.  

Edited May 21, 2016 by McKinley

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, McKinley said:

 And there really aren’t any other options - Lucifer can’t take it, since he already had it and apparently there’s a no give-backsies rule;

And this is just another bit of the fuckery in this episode. Takesie backsies has to be a thing because Cain gave it to Dean but Cain still had it in Executioner's Song because it glowed again when Cain touched the First Blade again. The worst part?? Robert Berens WROTE Executioner's Song. LOL WTF??

Edited May 21, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I guess I don't see any confusion regarding either Lucifer OR Sam's statements.

Lucifer- They showed the angel death-glow with a Mark Pelegrino face.  God said he can rebuild even Archangels  but it takes a really long time. So, Luci COULD be back, but seems unlikely to me.  Was it a shitty character death?  Meh.  He got resolution w/ a Dad apology and he was taken out by a God-class being.  Not implausible.  And the episode ending with God dying... which is a bigger fish.  So... IDK.  I think Luci had ran his course.  He finally got out and about in a good vessel and really, he was kinda bored.  The angels weren't really going to follow him...it was an appropriate time to wrap up his story IMO.

Sam - When Sam said they had talked, and 'Dean was all WTF?', Sam clarified that Dean told him that he (Sam) would have to be the one to take on Amara.  They were agreed on this. And this was how it had to go down.  I think Dean agreed for four reasons:
1) They HAD talked about Sam having to do the heavy lifting on this one.
2) God had told Dean killing Amara was not an option - Dean wasn't happy about it but that plan wasn't going to be changed - he even said "Okay, God's plan."
3) Never-give-up-Dean wasn't agreeing to not trying to stop Sam from becoming a demon.  Dean's "itch" got worse when triggered by the Blade.  Without the Blade, maybe Sam wouldn't be as susceptible to the 'puking out your guts til you die' feature.
4) Back to "God's plan." Dean had accepted they were background vocals to God's leadership on this 'take out the Darkness' attack.  I think even Dean Winchester was willing to trust God would have had another option if viable.

Bottom line: I think it was fairly clear Lucifer died, and I think Sam was talking about Sam being the one to take out Amara.  I don't really see it as confusing on either point.

ETA: Cain never LOST the Mark, so he didn't intend to take the Mark back - just the Blade.

[MysteryGuest]

I agree...when Sam said "we talked about it", he wasn't referring specifically to taking on the Mark, but just to the idea that Sam would have to be the one to deal with Amara.  The writing was clunky all over this episode and this was just one more example.

[McKinley]

Is the title referring to the St. Crispin’s Day speech from Henry V?  

"From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day."

[catrox14]

 I'm pretty frakking sure Dean would have flipped his lid if he was told the Mark was an option BEFORE they were already on the battlefield. He would have gone toe to toe with God over not letting Sam take the Mark. It's stupid. 

If only they could summon as an entity as powerful as God......like a Horseman.....stupid show should have NEVER killed Death.

Edited May 21, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

The other logic fail is that Dean did not  have the Mark voluntarily removed from his arm.

He asked Death to kill him but Death refused and Dean refused to share the Mark with anyone else because he wasn't going to put another person through the consequences and was willing to be jettisoned into outer space. He was also on the verge of killing Sam to make sure the Darkness stayed locked away but Sam showing him Mary's picture essentially convinced Dean to not kill Sam resulting in Death's death.  

So what again makes Dean "tainted" now? It makes no sense for it to have been the presence of the Mark alone. It can't be because he was a demon because God seemed just fine with Dean being a demon as long as he had the Mark.

This is such crap.

[Omegamom]

The show should hire us to go over scripts with a fine-toothed comb.  We'd all get the script when it's in second or third draft, they lock us into a conference room with lots of good food and possibly drinks, we read it, then we hash the whole thing out, find all the warts.

credits in the end, of course, and a hefty salary.

[auntvi]

Hell, I'd do it for pizza and beer! 

[Locutus]

I have a feeling that the solution will be that God and Amara both die......or live. It's the imbalance that's the problem.

[Demented Daisy]

I assumed that Sam wasn't scared of Lucifer because God was there, protecting him.  It's like a kid getting picked on at the playground, then his MMA fighter dad shows up.  Who's gonna be scared then?

[SueB]

Plus Lucifer tried to explode Dean in the first few minutes and that didn't work. So, under God's direct protection and Lucifer 'controlled' probably helped. Plus, I kind of feel like Sam (in particular) is 'all in' when it comes to God. He gets that God is temperamental but he also trusts Him and I think is so relieved that they are getting help.  It's been a burden on him all season.  

[Binns]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

We didn't see Cas die the first time in s4 only told by Chuck that the archangels exploded him. In Swan Song, Lucifer destroyed Cas at the molecular level. Blew him apart wings and all. No other angel has been killed the way Cas was that I can recall.

We saw Gabriel's glowing face and eyes and burned wings because he was killed by Lucifer with an angel blade. So to me Lucifer's death here looked more like the traditional death IF it was a death and God didn't have some power to intervene and send Lucifer elsewhere.

Cas as God (Godiel? Cod?) blew Raphael up much like Cas was. I don't remember burnt out wings then either. 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Binns said:

Cas as God (Godiel? Cod?) blew Raphael up much like Cas was. I don't remember burnt out wings then either. 

 

I couldn't remember how Raphael died but yeah if Godstiel blew him up like Cas then, no burnt wings makes sense. So yeah, I'm sticking with Lucifer's death is unconfirmed and he's really only mostly dead. Because I just refuse to believe a character as important to Sam's entire life history and the show and it's fucking LUCIFER i.e. Satan, the Devil  is going to be killed off so unceremoniously. Totally unsatisfying.

Edited May 21, 2016 by catrox14

[dr pepper]

team was too light, should've had some leviathans, leftover godlings, vampires, more hunters, and a few reapers.

[dr pepper]

also, killing god? he should have stood back up a second later and looked at amara sadly. "that hurt, but i've been killed before". amara looks alarmed "christ!" she exclaims. "i and my father are one", he says, then threatens to forgive her. she flees.

[dr pepper]

or, if you don't like that one, how about this: the death of god brings back death, the entity, who says there are no rules anymore so he might as well take everyone. next season, the boys must team up with amara to stop him.

[dr pepper]

also, it would have been cool if god had done a vessel duplication, so we could have misha playing both roles at the same time.

[ZennyKenny]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Plus Lucifer tried to explode Dean in the first few minutes and that didn't work. So, under God's direct protection and Lucifer 'controlled' probably helped. Plus, I kind of feel like Sam (in particular) is 'all in' when it comes to God. He gets that God is temperamental but he also trusts Him and I think is so relieved that they are getting help.  It's been a burden on him all season.  

That's true. He was very passionate in his speech to Dean about finally having God on their side and not having to make the hard decision (I forget exactly what he said).

[catrox14]

Well we have our answer about why Sam wasn't more afraid. Jared said at today's Rome convention that there was a scene between Chuck and Sam that addresses that point, that was cut for time.

[Binns]

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well we have our answer about why Sam wasn't more afraid. Jared said at today's Rome convention that there was a scene between Chuck and Sam that addresses that point, that was cut for time.

That's irritating. I read the storify...Sounds like it happens a lot and they dig that the fans notice continuity problems, lol. 

[trxr4kids]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well we have our answer about why Sam wasn't more afraid. Jared said at today's Rome convention that there was a scene between Chuck and Sam that addresses that point, that was cut for time.

Okay sure that makes sense, I mean who among us didn't prefer seeing screen time used on trying to get Lucifer out of his room or the really smart choice to include overly long poorly done CGI effects over having an insight into Sam's thoughts, feelings and opinions. I cannot possibly roll my eyes any harder.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Okay sure that makes sense, I mean who among us didn't prefer seeing screen time used on trying to get Lucifer out of his room or the really smart choice to include overly long poorly done CGI effects over having an insight into Sam's thoughts, feelings and opinions. I cannot possibly roll my eyes any harder.

I don't know if they filmed the scene and cut it but it was in the script. And I have to go back and check but I think Jensen said there was more to the Sam and Dean scene about Sam taking on the Mark.

[Omegamom]

38 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Okay sure that makes sense, I mean who among us didn't prefer seeing screen time used on trying to get Lucifer out of his room or the really smart choice to include overly long poorly done CGI effects over having an insight into Sam's thoughts, feelings and opinions. I cannot possibly roll my eyes any harder.

We need an ability to "super-like" posts.  So much this.  Just add in a "and Dean's" and it describes my feelings exactly.

[Wynne88]

It's got to be kind of frustrating for the actors to film scenes that help make sense of the episode, only to have them cut.  By the time they see the episode, its weeks too late to suggest changes in the following one to help repair the damage.  They just have to live with it and support the show best they can, even if they feel the final edit of an episode is crappy.  

That makes me really wonder about the phone calls made during the filming of the finale.  They hadn't seen We Happy Few yet, so their concern couldn't have been about the holes that were left after editing that weren't being addressed in the finale.  To me, that implies that the finale itself had issues even worst than the ones folks have mentioned in We Happy Few (which apparently didn't warrant a phone call).  That's sort of scary.

[MysteryGuest]

It is scary.  And I'm not quite sure what to make of Jensen's comments from Jibcon about how we, as fans, are very forgiving, but he's hoping that we won't have to be when we see where they're going for season 12.  Does that mean that he knows we've had quite a bit to forgive for season 11?  These guys aren't stupid, and they've been doing this show for coming on 11 years now, so they absolutely have to know when a storyline is a stinker.  I hope for their sake (and ours) that next season is better.  It's difficult to go to work and give it your best when you know the work just isn't up to par.  And I don't want to watch them start to mail in their performances.  

[dr pepper]

On 5/20/2016 at 0:08 PM, sigmaforce86 said:

I also imagine that Misha just loved the number of times he got to say "screw you" - that first encounter between him and Chuck was fun to watch.

 

A tribute to Misha. This episode i completely accepted that this was a different person from Castiel.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

It is scary.  And I'm not quite sure what to make of Jensen's comments from Jibcon about how we, as fans, are very forgiving, but he's hoping that we won't have to be when we see where they're going for season 12.  Does that mean that he knows we've had quite a bit to forgive for season 11?  These guys aren't stupid, and they've been doing this show for coming on 11 years now, so they absolutely have to know when a storyline is a stinker.  I hope for their sake (and ours) that next season is better.  It's difficult to go to work and give it your best when you know the work just isn't up to par.  And I don't want to watch them start to mail in their performances.  

Jensen was worried about the French Mistake, he was worried about demon!Dean. He was worried about Fan Fiction. He was worried about "Baby".  And each time we have gone with them for the most part.

Jensen WILL NEVER mail in a performance. He might miss the mark or mess up a performance but I've yet to see him checked out. If he was thisclose to a role in Deadpool, that means he's thinking beyond SPN to an extent and he'll be shooting himself in the foot if he mails anything in. I don't mention Jared because I'm less convinced he'll be wanting to work as much as he is now after the show ends but I still don't think he'll mail it in either.

[MysteryGuest]

Maybe I'm just dissatisfied with the last few episodes, and most likely it's the writing more than anything else, but there have been a few scenes that have seemed flat to me in the acting category.  Not whole episodes, but definitely some scenes.  It could just be editing, etc., but sometimes it's hard to say some crap line without it affecting your performance.

[Goldmoon]

oh, yeah, MG, both Js were phoning it in for the God/Lucifer family counseling scene.  It is likely that they just didn't know how to play such a ridiculous scene.

[MysteryGuest]

Yes, that scene was particularly painful, all the way around.  I know they tried to go for the laugh, but it just didn't work, IMO.  Or maybe it just went on too long.  I especially disliked the scene with Lucifer in his room, blasting the music.  He's not a 13 year old throwing a tantrum.  Maybe this episode, specifically, is what Jensen had in mind when he said the fans were forgiving.  I have to think they've read some of the reviews and comments that are out there.  

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

This Has To Be The Crappiest Superhero/Supernatural Team Ever

Nice try, God, but you may have wanted a more considered plan of attack.

[sarthaz]

That sucked.

[Bishop]

I think Supernatural is pretty much Jumping the Shark at this point.  I mean this last episode was terrible.  How am I suppose to take these characters seriously when they don't anymore?  I mean God and Lucifer having a therapy session while Dean and Sam give commentary?  Then the big plan to defeat the darkness is just getting the dysfunctional band back together aka Crowley, Rowena, Lucifer, the Winchesters and God?  And some angels?  I kept rolling my eyes after a number of scenes, fast-forwarding through others because it was unbelievably bad.  The Mark of Cain fiasco nonsense?  Ugh, please.

I don't know how the show is suppose to go on from here because if all the big-bads in the world and all the hugely strong supernatural beings (angels, God) have already encountered and fought or became friends with the Winchesters, where exactly do we go?  Do we go back to fighting demons?  Crowley?  Is Lucifer now a good angel and not the devil anymore?  If so, who can top the big-bad of Supernatural now?  I feel as if the show has boxed itself into a corner, and if the writers intended for them to meet God, defeat the darkness, work with all the powerful entities of the universe, then this should have been the last year.  I can't imagine how they go into season 12 and make it interesting - and I do love this show.  However, this last year has been a tough slog.

The only thing I can imagine the show doing at this point is that Sam and Dean die and then both guys become angels fighting for God and Heaven, but I'm not sure how I would feel about that at this point.

Edited May 25, 2016 by Bishop

[Binns]

Still worried about how I think Amara burned out the warding in the Bunker...

[mertensia]

50 minutes ago, Binns said:

Still worried about how I think Amara burned out the warding in the Bunker...

Just imagine if this means utility companies suddenly noticing them! Season 12: Year of the Fugitive from Back Bills.

[Binns]

54 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Just imagine if this means utility companies suddenly noticing them! Season 12: Year of the Fugitive from Back Bills.

Lol! Maybe the magical cleaning ward that was up for 40 years leading to no dust also got burnt and they are gonna need some Merry Maids. 

[Cigale]

Just to say that I was very impressed by the musical score in the end scenes.  I wonder who wrote it?  Does somebody know?

[DittyDotDot]

Who wrote the music or the episode? 

The episode was written by Robert Berens. The music score, I don't know. Supernatural used to have two composers, Christopher Lennertz and Jay Gruska who alternated episodes. This felt like a more Gruska-like score but I wasn't sure so I just looked them both up on IMDb, Neither are credited for scoring episodes since the beginning of the season. I really haven't been paying attention as much this year, but are both composers gone now or is it just that IMDb hasn't been updated? 

[catrox14]

The music was Jay Gruska. His name was listed in the closing credits. If it was Christopher Lennertz his name would have been listed. 

Edited June 1, 2016 by catrox14