S04.E10: Munchkins

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Ailianna said:

It's interesting to notice that not one person has thought that Philip's use of the word "tired" might have meant just that. 

 

7 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Of course he could just be tired. 

It was the way he said it, combined with the fact that he died when Philip was six that is making people wonder if Philip wasn't quite ready to tell Paige the real truth.

Yes, exactly. Because even if it does mean tired to that extent, it's still a euphemism since "he was tired when he got home from work" is not the same thing as "he worked himself to death," especially not to a kid living Paige's life. Knowing the details helps in understanding the way he said it--if it's important because he was worked to death that puts Philip in the position of being protective and sad for his father even though he only knew him as a small child. That itself is a huge thing compared to the basically healthy but still entitled demands his kids make on him.

He's also saying this in response to her asking if he liked Tobolsk. I went back to watch it again and the acting there is pretty rich, like there's a lot going on--the dialogue's also pretty deliberate. She asks if his mother was a good cook. He stops and stares out, trying to consider an answer, and comes up with "she made a soup I liked." Not an answer that really encourages that line of thought, but obviously he's trying to answer so he's not shutting her down. Then she brings up his father, reminds us Philip said he died when he was six (he doesn't correct her) what he did for work. He doesn't just say "he was a logger," but starts describing where he's from, making a circle on the table as he describes a city surrounded by a forest.

Then she asks if he liked it there. In response to the cook question he looked blank before answering--like he hadn't thought about it. In response to whether he likes Tobolsk he smiles. To me, the first smile he looks reads as wistful, like it brings up pleasant memories. Eventually this moves into him laughing about how he just didn't think like that, but the first smile doesn't to me read as simple amusement at Paige or the question.  His face looks a bit like Elizabeth when she was wistfully imagining retiring to Odessa. So I read a bit of the thing the show talks about a lot, the unselfawareness. He's unaware of the wistful expression when asked about the actual place (just as he seemed unaware of the wistfulness of his voice when he mentioned the cold in S2, which the Israeli agent called out as missing his home--the place itself).

Then he says there were things there that he liked but his dad worked very hard and when he came home he was...tired. At this point his emotion imo clearly darkens. Especially on "when he came home." Then he says it wasn't about what you liked, it was about hard work and protecting your family, and he goes into the story about his mom. So even he himself is using his father as a contrast to "there were things there that I liked." And his reading of "when he came home" and "...tired" does seem a bit heavy. Plus he then quickly goes to his mom. If I was tracking it I'd say it reads like Tobolsk itself is a pleasant subject, his mom neutral/safe and his dad...troubling. That's the biggest dip in the tone and it follows how the dialogue tracks too, because when asked about his father he first goes to Tobolsk and after he's spoken about him he goes to his mother.

Those seem like pretty specific choices, imo, especially given that that actor's playing a character who's supposed to be un-selfaware so the acting has to be specific.

[Gella]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Of course he could just be tired. 

It was the way he said it, combined with the fact that he died when Philip was six that is making people wonder if Philip wasn't quite ready to tell Paige the real truth.

I definitely took it as a euphemism for something else. He sort of paused before "tired"... like he was looking for the right word. 

The desire to avoid confrontation + blind rage + reading people may have nothing to do with his family and everything to do with where and when he grew up. It just wasn't a soft environment by any means. 

[Inquisitionist]

15 hours ago, Ailianna said:

It's interesting to notice that not one person has thought that Philip's use of the word "tired" might have meant just that.  ...

That's what I thought of when Philip said "tired."  Not that it was a euphemism, but that, like those times in my life, that's the only memory he had of his father, someone who was working to the edges of human ability at a physically demanding and dangerous job, not that he had bad memories.

 

I thought this as well.  Is tiring physical labor such a foreign concept nowadays?

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I thought this as well.  Is tiring physical labor such a foreign concept nowadays?

It's not that the concept is foreign at all, it's that he stops short ("when he got home he was...") and then pauses really clearly before choosing that word and then even nods after it like he's standing behind that word choice. 

[hellmouse]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's not that the concept is foreign at all, it's that he stops short ("when he got home he was...") and then pauses really clearly before choosing that word and then even nods after it like he's standing behind that word choice. 

Also, he is answering Paige's question about whether he liked it there. And he says "There were things there that I liked. But my dad worked very hard and when he came home he was... tired. My mom, she was tough."

So it's like he's imagining things he liked but they are overshadowed by something else - his father, who worked very hard and was... and there he searches for the right word... tired. And then he immediately goes to talking about his mother being tough, which she'd have to be if "tired" is a euphemism for more than physical tiredness. 

I'm sure his father was physically exhausted from work. But to me, his word choices imply more than physical tiredness on the part of his dad..

[Umbelina]

Well, that and the history of the times then.  He would have, almost undoubtedly served in the armed forces since almost no one didn't.  The area he's in is also interesting culturally and historically, his parents would have been alive during the revolution.

My best guess is PTSD, or at his time, called "battle fatigue" and then, since he died quite young?  Suicide or something worse, from Philip's delivery that is.  If he'd been killed in an accident at work, or died of illness, I think Philip would have included that in "tired."  For example, "tired because he had cancer and died a few years later." 

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Also, he is answering Paige's question about whether he liked it there. And he says "There were things there that I liked. But my dad worked very hard and when he came home he was... tired. My mom, she was tough."

So it's like he's imagining things he liked but they are overshadowed by something else - his father, who worked very hard and was... and there he searches for the right word... tired. And then he immediately goes to talking about his mother being tough, which she'd have to be if "tired" is a euphemism for more than physical tiredness. 

I'm sure his father was physically exhausted from work. But to me, his word choices imply more than physical tiredness on the part of his dad..

Yeah, I think if the line wasn't meant to be a bit mysterious the director would have been like...what's up with that reading, MR? Because it would be very easy to talk about your parent being tired because they were overworked in a ways that would not make anyone think of anything but exhaustion from work. He could even have said he didn't remember him that well since he died when he was really very young, and that maybe that was in part because he was too tired to engage much at home. But the way it's delivered it sounds like he has very clear memories.

[Umbelina]

That was the other thing.  He made sure to mention his mother was tough, even gave an example of that.  I dunno, it was almost as if "dad wasn't, but mom was."

[hellmouse]

10 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I think if the line wasn't meant to be a bit mysterious the director would have been like...what's up with that reading, MR? Because it would be very easy to talk about your parent being tired because they were overworked in a ways that would not make anyone think of anything but exhaustion from work. He could even have said he didn't remember him that well since he died when he was really very young, and that maybe that was in part because he was too tired to engage much at home. But the way it's delivered it sounds like he has very clear memories.

Yes, it sounds like he had very clear memories and they were not included in the things he liked about Tobolsk. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

That was the other thing.  He made sure to mention his mother was tough, even gave an example of that.  I dunno, it was almost as if "dad wasn't, but mom was."

Yeah, or even if it wasn't like a judgment of his father for weakness he's still contrasting them again, or like it doesn't matter about his dad because his mom was there.

This, again, is interesting to think about since Philip himself is the "soft one" with the kids. He really doesn't seem to value toughness in the same way that Elizabeth does. But that he doesn't value it as much in his own way--we've seen him act the way his mother does in that story, and telling Paige life was about hard work and "protecting your family" is another one of those moments where Philip echoes Elizabeth in a way that might be more effective with her. So he seems to see his mother more as the role model--Philip himself is pretty damned tireless.

[Gella]

But that's pretty common. The ideal Russian woman, according to Nekrasov's poem  "is beautiful, blushing, tall, slim, beautiful in every clothing, skillful at every task. She'll bear cold and hunger, she is always patient and calm... she will stop a stampeding horse and will enter a burning house." 

So Philip's allusion to his mother as well his attitude towards his own wife make perfect sense given where he is from and how he must have been raised. It would also make sense that Elizabeth expects her kids, especially her daughter, to be tougher.  

BTW, not every Soviet man ended up in the front lines. Those whose skills were deemed crucial to producing weapons stayed behind to work in the factories. I am not sure whether that would have included a logger, most likely not. 

I wish we knew how old P&E are supposed to be. If they had been born during or immediately after the war then they would have been teenagers during Khruschev's Era, which could explain some of Philip's more lax attitude towards the "west". 

[madam magpie]

32 minutes ago, Gella said:

But that's pretty common. The ideal Russian woman, according to Nekrasov's poem  "is beautiful, blushing, tall, slim, beautiful in every clothing, skillful at every task. She'll bear cold and hunger, she is always patient and calm... she will stop a stampeding horse and will enter a burning house." 

So Philip's allusion to his mother as well his attitude towards his own wife make perfect sense given where he is from and how he must have been raised. It would also make sense that Elizabeth expects her kids, especially her daughter, to be tougher.  

BTW, not every Soviet man ended up in the front lines. Those whose skills were deemed crucial to producing weapons stayed behind to work in the factories. I am not sure whether that would have included a logger, most likely not. 

I wish we knew how old P&E are supposed to be. If they had been born during or immediately after the war then they would have been teenagers during Khruschev's Era, which could explain some of Philip's more lax attitude towards the "west". 

Didn't Elizabeth say her father died in the Battle of Stalingrad when she was two? Or was it Leningrad? Stalingrad was 1942-43, I think, and Leningrad was 1941-44. So I'm guessing Philip and Elizabeth are about 40.

Edited May 25, 2016 by madam magpie

[CarpeDiem54]

I thought Elizabeth was 22 when they came to the U.S. in 1965.  So she'd be 40.

[hellmouse]

Elizabeth says she was 22 when she came to the US, which was in 1965, so she was born in 1943. I assume Philip is meant to be the same age as Elizabeth. 

ETA: The battle of Stalingrad was '42-'43, so it doesn't really fit with her being 2 years old when he died. But it's possible he died after the main fighting had ended. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by hellmouse
math

[Gella]

Which is interesting because they would have come of age during a somewhat more liberal time. And yet it seemed to have no effect on Elizabeth. 

[Umbelina]

Well, by their early teens they were in training though, so that could explain some things.  Also, Elizabeth's father being a traitor or coward or whatever it was shaped her into be uber-loyal as well.

So Philip's dad, if he was a normal age for a dad, died quite young.  The main memory Philip has of him is that he was tired.  I think the way he died might hold some keys, illness, suicide, arrested, accident, killed in a bar fight...

[madam magpie]

I think Elizabeth has grown into some progressive views, actually. She's pretty permissive with the kids. But she's still a dedicated socialist/communist. I don't think that's unusual. Khrushchev denounced the purges and such, but I wouldn't say he was super progressive toward the West. The Berlin Wall went up during his time in power, and he took a pretty hard line with Kennedy until after the Cuban Missile Crisis. And within about two years of that, he was replaced by Brezhnev, who was militaristic.

Edited May 25, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Gella said:

I wish we knew how old P&E are supposed to be. If they had been born during or immediately after the war then they would have been teenagers during Khruschev's Era, which could explain some of Philip's more lax attitude towards the "west"

We do know how old they are supposed to be. They were 22 in 1965 (thereabouts) so they're now about 40. They met in 1962, and according to Elizabeth saying she was tapped at 16, they'd already been in the program a few years then. 

Total tangent, but I always find it funny that on this show character's ages are often called out very specifically for one reason or another. Yet very often people (not here, but just all over) will refer to the ages wrong. Like it's so common for people to specifically say Paige was either 14 or 16 when her age was 15, stated over and over again in dialogue. Philip's often referred to as a teenager when he killed those kids, even though twice he's referred to himself as younger than that, even giving his actual age of 10. It just stands out to me because you don't always get ages spelled out as often as we do here.

The one date, as was mentioned, that didn't fit was Elizabeth talking about Stalingrad but she might be an unreliable narrator there.

9 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, by their early teens they were in training though, so that could explain some things.  Also, Elizabeth's father being a traitor or coward or whatever it was shaped her into be uber-loyal as well.

Yeah, I don't think Elizabeth is supposed to be your average Russian girl of her time, whatever views we're looking at. 

[jjj]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Well, by their early teens they were in training though, so that could explain some things.  Also, Elizabeth's father being a traitor or coward or whatever it was shaped her into be uber-loyal as well.

So Philip's dad, if he was a normal age for a dad, died quite young.  The main memory Philip has of him is that he was tired.

I think the point of the delivery of "tired" meant that Philip's main memory of his father is something else, and that "tired" was the best and perhaps most charitable euphemism he could invent on the spot.

I agree that whatever happened with Elizabeth's father taught her that loyalty to the cause is the highest priority.

[jjj]

There is a great interview with Richard Thomas about Agent Gaad overall, and last week's episode -- among other matters, he said that the bugged pen had disappeared before he could claim it as a souvenir:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/arts/television/richard-thomas-of-the-americans-on-agent-gaads-fate-john-boy-and-jimmy-carter.html?action=click&contentCollection=arts&module=NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article&version=column&rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthe-americans-tv-recaps

This quote is wonderful:

'When I did “The Waltons,” TV shows didn’t kill off characters. You just did the show until it was canceled. But in the current novelistic style of cable series, everybody has a suspended sentence. Once you know your character is going to be killed and you’re still doing shows leading up to that, you feel like you’re on death row. I came onto the set that day and it was like, “Dead actor walking!” Everybody was very respectful. Members of the crew were coming up and shaking my hand. It’s a different and peculiar feeling. I was sad because I had a blast playing the character, and I really admire the show. Getting killed off was a new experience for me — unsettling but dramatically satisfying.'

[RedHawk]

28 minutes ago, jjj said:

There is a great interview with Richard Thomas about Agent Gaad overall, and last week's episode -- among other matters, he said that the bugged pen had disappeared before he could claim it as a souvenir:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/arts/television/richard-thomas-of-the-americans-on-agent-gaads-fate-john-boy-and-jimmy-carter.html?action=click&contentCollection=arts&module=NextInCollection&region=Footer&pgtype=article&version=column&rref=collection%2Fcolumn%2Fthe-americans-tv-recaps

This quote is wonderful:

'When I did “The Waltons,” TV shows didn’t kill off characters. You just did the show until it was canceled. But in the current novelistic style of cable series, everybody has a suspended sentence. Once you know your character is going to be killed and you’re still doing shows leading up to that, you feel like you’re on death row. I came onto the set that day and it was like, “Dead actor walking!” Everybody was very respectful. Members of the crew were coming up and shaking my hand. It’s a different and peculiar feeling. I was sad because I had a blast playing the character, and I really admire the show. Getting killed off was a new experience for me — unsettling but dramatically satisfying.'

But did they remember to burn the body? The way his eyes looked, maybe he's going to become a wight. Or the Red Woman could bring him back from the dead?

Oh, sorry, wrong show.

I was so bummed to see him go out like that. Gaad was a decent fellow and I hoped we'd see Stan dropping in on him occasionally.

[SunnyBeBe]

18 hours ago, hellmouse said:

Elizabeth says she was 22 when she came to the US, which was in 1965, so she was born in 1943. I assume Philip is meant to be the same age as Elizabeth. 

ETA: The battle of Stalingrad was '42-'43, so it doesn't really fit with her being 2 years old when he died. But it's possible he died after the main fighting had ended. 

These numbers are freaking me out.  I should have known this, but seeing the numbers  I realize that P & E are about my parents' age.  Man.....

[snarktini]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

These numbers are freaking me out.  I should have known this, but seeing the numbers  I realize that P & E are about my parents' age.  Man.....

It's hit me a few times! My family is parallel to the Jennings -- P&E are two years older than my parents, and the kids are two years older than me and my brother. (And I'm older now than the P&E then! Sigh.) When I see Elizabeth in the kitchen it jumps out at me. Through the eyes of a kid, parents always seem "old", and when I look at her I realize my parents were still so young at this time.

[gwhh]

Did anyone notice the KGB thug after Gaad died.  Lift up each of his shoes to see if he had any blood on them.  No way that guy a regular KGB agent.  He working for the direct actions people aka the assassination people! 

Edited May 27, 2016 by gwhh

[Umbelina]

Why?  Why wouldn't any agent check his shoes for blood if he had the time, which they did?

They looked like a B&E & abduction team to me, all agencies have those.

[gwhh]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Why?  Why wouldn't any agent check his shoes for blood if he had the time, which they did?

They looked like a B&E & abduction team to me, all agencies have those.

The movie no country for old men.  Have the main bad guy doing that on at least two separate occasions. 

That a move.  That only a practice killer would do without thinking.  You notice the other 2 KGB guys don't do that.  Another indication that they were NOT there just to talk! 

Edited May 28, 2016 by gwhh

[gwhh]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 0:33 AM, sistermagpie said:

 

Yes, exactly. Because even if it does mean tired to that extent, it's still a euphemism since "he was tired when he got home from work" is not the same thing as "he worked himself to death," especially not to a kid living Paige's life. Knowing the details helps in understanding the way he said it--if it's important because he was worked to death that puts Philip in the position of being protective and sad for his father even though he only knew him as a small child. That itself is a huge thing compared to the basically healthy but still entitled demands his kids make on him.

He's also saying this in response to her asking if he liked Tobolsk. I went back to watch it again and the acting there is pretty rich, like there's a lot going on--the dialogue's also pretty deliberate. She asks if his mother was a good cook. He stops and stares out, trying to consider an answer, and comes up with "she made a soup I liked." Not an answer that really encourages that line of thought, but obviously he's trying to answer so he's not shutting her down. Then she brings up his father, reminds us Philip said he died when he was six (he doesn't correct her) what he did for work. He doesn't just say "he was a logger," but starts describing where he's from, making a circle on the table as he describes a city surrounded by a forest.

Then she asks if he liked it there. In response to the cook question he looked blank before answering--like he hadn't thought about it. In response to whether he likes Tobolsk he smiles. To me, the first smile he looks reads as wistful, like it brings up pleasant memories. Eventually this moves into him laughing about how he just didn't think like that, but the first smile doesn't to me read as simple amusement at Paige or the question.  His face looks a bit like Elizabeth when she was wistfully imagining retiring to Odessa. So I read a bit of the thing the show talks about a lot, the unselfawareness. He's unaware of the wistful expression when asked about the actual place (just as he seemed unaware of the wistfulness of his voice when he mentioned the cold in S2, which the Israeli agent called out as missing his home--the place itself).

Then he says there were things there that he liked but his dad worked very hard and when he came home he was...tired. At this point his emotion imo clearly darkens. Especially on "when he came home." Then he says it wasn't about what you liked, it was about hard work and protecting your family, and he goes into the story about his mom. So even he himself is using his father as a contrast to "there were things there that I liked." And his reading of "when he came home" and "...tired" does seem a bit heavy. Plus he then quickly goes to his mom. If I was tracking it I'd say it reads like Tobolsk itself is a pleasant subject, his mom neutral/safe and his dad...troubling. That's the biggest dip in the tone and it follows how the dialogue tracks too, because when asked about his father he first goes to Tobolsk and after he's spoken about him he goes to his mother.

Those seem like pretty specific choices, imo, especially given that that actor's playing a character who's supposed to be un-selfaware so the acting has to be specific.

I was thinking that also.  That tired just meant tired.  Probably not a lot of male bonding in a house without a mother (she dead) and in Siberia right after WW 2 turned the USSR into one big hell hole! 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, gwhh said:

I was thinking that also.  That tired just meant tired.  Probably not a lot of male bonding in a house without a mother (she dead) and in Siberia right after WW 2 turned the USSR into one big hell hole! 

Without a mother? It seems his mother was alive and there.

[JasonCC]

Okay, I admit I didn't read the entire board for this episode and I do want to rewatch it.

But can someone just tell me why it's called "Munchkins"? I totally missed the reference.

Edited May 29, 2016 by JasonCC

[sistermagpie]

25 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

But can someone just tell me why it's called "Munchkins"? I totally missed the reference.

Munchkins is a nickname for FBI guys who are very strict and by the book, basing themselves on the FBI director at the time, William Webster. Stan mentioned his new boss being one, I believe. This is the first full ep where Stan's got his new boss. But I think it was maybe also supposed to refer to the kids on the show - Kimmie, Paige, Matthew all come into play here as part of actual espionage stuff.

[Dev F]

19 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Munchkins is a nickname for FBI guys who are very strict and by the book, basing themselves on the FBI director at the time, William Webster. Stan mentioned his new boss being one, I believe. This is the first full ep where Stan's got his new boss. But I think it was maybe also supposed to refer to the kids on the show - Kimmie, Paige, Matthew all come into play here as part of actual espionage stuff.

Yep. Figuratively, I think, it's also about how parents serve as models for their children, the way Webster was a model for the munchkins. Which is reflected not only in the kids' stories but in Philip's story about his mom, Martha's dad not wanting to believe that he could've raised a traitor, and so on.

[magemaud]

I really don't think Matthew has to go so far as to join a church with a Christian Rock group to impress Paige. She lives right across the street, he can see her any time and ply her with his father's beer. 

[Umbelina]

No need to join it, doesn't mean he might not spend some time there, for the outings, Paige, the music.

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 8:13 AM, NitneLiun said:

I got the impression that it wasn't Arkady's operation, when he said it should never have been planned.  It seems it was an operation being run completely by Moscow Center.

 

On ‎19‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 9:30 AM, Umbelina said:

I think they were going to pay Gaad if possible for secrets, if he didn't agree to that, they'd either coerce him by capturing his wife, or drug/torture him to find out anything they could from him.  He wasn't getting out of there without them.

 

On ‎19‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 10:52 AM, Bannon said:

The goons who killed Gaad were clearly KGB, given Arkady's remarks later in the episode. They wouldn't be trading Martha. Martha is valuable to them. My best guess is that they were going to bribe Gaad for a debriefing, or kidnap him if he refused. The kidnapping thing is a bit far-fetched.

 

On ‎19‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 1:52 PM, Ina123 said:

My interpretation of the Thailand scene was that Gaad knew they were there to interrogate him and he knew the possibility of giving up secrets when tortured. I saw his mad dash to the glass door as suicide.

I don't believe Gaad could have be bribed. He may have told something by torture, but how can KGB be sure that he told the truth? And he was retired, so some of his intelligence would be out-of-date and some other intelligence could be changed quickly once FBI knew he was missing. 

So I agree with Arkady that the operation should never have been planned. Even if Gaad had told something, the benefits wouldn't have compensated damage. It was just like the assassination plot that caused FBI to revenge. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 11:59 PM, Umbelina said:

I don't think Stan is a moron.  He's the one who suspected and proved Martha was bad.  He's the one who never believed the convenient suicide.  When he first came on the show he had PSTD from his long term embedded with skin heads duty.  He was suspecting everyone, including the Jennings, but his wife told him that was simply nuts, basically, "honey, you are home now, relax, get back into our real life."  That made perfect sense.  Stan was still in that state when Nina happened, and Nina WAS being honest with him until she was caught, he was getting information.  He's not "super spy" but I don't think he's a bad spy either.

It was self-evident that Stan wasn't in the normal state in S1 when we got to know him after his undercover mission, but I think you are the first to say he had PSTD. However, because he is a macho and it was 80ies, he never even tried to deal with his problems, nor make his marriage to work again but let it fall apart.

As for Nina, she is the protagonist from whom it's hardest to say when she is honest or not, or if she loves someone or not. The only thing is clear IMO that she was so angered that Stan killed Vlad and lied her about it that she confessed her treason and became a double agent. After that most of what she told Stan was acceopeted by Rezidentura. But as the room was bugged, Rezidentura found out that she didn't them all.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 11:30 PM, Umbelina said:

Spies or not, I do believe many people have a gut feeling when something is off.  Spies are trained to notice every detail though, so they would have more information from which to base "hunches."  Remember Hans being trained to notice every single thing at once?  Stan and the Jennings have years of that training.

- - -

Now, with Gaad dead?  I think Stan will be noticing EVERYTHING.  His senses will be on high alert, and he's well trained, his wife isn't there to point out his paranoia, he's been away from his PTSD from the skin head embedding for quite a while.  I think he will pay attention to every slightly off thing in his life, everywhere, including at home.

 

On ‎22‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 11:49 PM, sistermagpie said:

Right, but I think that's like Stan with Martha. His dream showed he'd seen something without noticing it. It's important for them all to be able to say what the problem is. Stan shouldn't just have a hunch there's something off about the Jennings, he should see something. Worth noting, for instance, that when he first met the Jennings he did say something was off about Philip, so he probably did pick up on something about him.

But he--and the Jennings--would also be trained to be able to identify where these things come from or find proof of the thing they feel. Otherwise Stan could just tell people he knows when somebody's lying or shady and people would just be expected to believe him (I've seen a lot of documentaries where police do this and it's really frustrating because the facts show that they're very often wrong). So when Stan has a feeling, he looks for evidence he can really use for proof.

 

On ‎22‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 11:54 PM, Umbelina said:

To build a case would require proof, I agree.

However, sometimes those hunches can save your life, and there isn't time to investigate, (*assuming you were a cop, criminal, or FBI) you simply have to act or react.  Even a civilian who gets an idea that they are not safe REACTS.  Proof can wait.

I do think Stan, after Gaad's death, is more likely to pick up on ANYTHING that's "off" or "odd" and that will include his neighbors.  Frankly, I hope I'm wrong, but it makes sense to me that next season might be the last for this show.  (my 'hunch') because really, the walls are closing in on all sides now.

 

On ‎23‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 0:19 AM, Umbelina said:

I don't think it would be a cop out for Stan to completely slip into cop mode, more of the Stan he was when he was undercover than the "relax man, go to EST" guy we've seen.  It's completely logical to me that Gaad, the former head of the DC branch of the FBI being murdered, not to mention his friend, would put Stan on VERY high alert, and part of that is paying attention to hunches.  He discovered Martha's treachery from a "hunch" after all.  Something was off, something didn't feel right to him.  (Again, my explanation of so-called ESP above.) 

It's kind of a combat mode really, when you know, really know, you are under attack, every single thing in your world becomes important.  With Gaad's death, on top of all the others, and Martha?  It's combat mode now, and I don't think Stan will be able to turn off his spidery senses anymore.  It's not magic, it's paying attention. 

 

On ‎23‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 1:29 AM, sistermagpie said:

Slip into cop mode, sure. I just don't think cop mode will look that different because even in cop mode he has things to go on.

He had also seen her taking files without realizing he had, and he knew she was in a good place to plant the bug. When he went to her apartment the first time he reacted to Shogun. I think whatever thing sets Stan's senses tingling, we'll see it too and get it. So it won't seem like just a hunch. It'll seem like Stan picking up on something. We've seen him pick up on stuff with Philip plenty of times, for instance, there was just no reason he'd attach it to spy work really without it seeming like Stan knows he's on a TV show with a limited number of characters in his world.

Philip is Stan's best friend. He brings back info from the Stan household. But he doesn't press for details because that would be dangerous. If Philip doesn't dare do it himself I doubt he'd want Paige to start fishing with Matthew. Though of course if Matthew does say something she'd probably know to repeat it. If I were her I'd certainly talk about the Martha story.

I believe the implication was that it was a book a man would more likely be reading. Sexist, but also probably Stan making a good call knowing Martha. She might not have had other books in the house like it. So it might have been not the type of book he'd imagine her reading having spoken to her or even noticed what she reads at work. They made a point of him clocking it really obviously, so it seemed like that was the idea.

 

On ‎23‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 1:56 AM, Umbelina said:

That's exactly what I am saying here sistermagpie.  It's not supernatural at all, it's a higher level of observation, a way of putting things you see, hear, taste, feel into patterns more quickly or more thoroughly than some other people.  I think Stan already has/does that, just like many people do, but he's had additional training in observation, and especially in details, reading people, memory. 

Maybe I'm simply not using the right words to convey what I'm trying to say.  Hunches, ESP, nagging feelings, sensing that something isn't quite right isn't at all abnormal in my opinion.  Some people simply pay more attention, naturally, by training, or perhaps heightened *but normal* senses, such as extremely good peripheral vision, or high frequency hearing.  The more times something happens to you that proved your "hunch" correct?  The more likely you are to trust any gut feelings in the future.

I think we all have some level of those things, for example, it's exceedingly rare for anyone to fail one simple experiment, and you can do it yourself with unknowing test cases.  Simply stare intensely at the back of some stranger's upper neck where it meets the skull, anywhere, elevator, mall, on the street, in a restaurant, it doesn't matter.  Almost every single time one of two things will happen, their hand will go to the back of their head/neck, and/or they will turn to look in your direction.

With Stan, he's learned to trust those gut feelings, they've worked for him.  They probably worked to keep him alive with the Skin Heads, and they definitely just worked to out a Russian agent at work.  So I think now, after Gaad's murder?  He will put those senses, without even necessarily knowing it, on high alert.  I think he will catch anything even slightly odd even more quickly now.  I think, with the Jennings living right across the street, that could possibly mean trouble for them.

Sometimes, in his line of work, there is time to dig deeper and take those hunches and find actual evidence, other times, you feel something is off and hit the ground, that "eyes on the back of your head" thing in his line of work might be a gun-sight.  Putting together a case?  Time to build a foundation, reason to look for more.  In emergencies?  Different reactions.

It reminds me in a way of someone who survived the bombing in Boston Marathon bombing.  One of the survivors was interviewed, and said he changed direction and walked away fast because something "bugged him" about the look on one of the bomber's faces who had walked past him.  It was just a feeling, but it was based in something real, he noticed, he made a choice to leave because something felt creepy to him.  That's an example of immediate threat, and people who trust those feelings choosing a flight response.

This is interesting discussion where both have good arguments. However, I must agree with Sistermagie.

It might be that after Gaad's death Stan will pick anything suspicions but, rather making the right conclusion, he can easily become paranoid. If Shogun is suspicius, then there isn't a person in the world who lacks suspicious things.

Before all, classical detective novelists firmly rejected any "hunchs" not based on the material facts, because the audience must have the same prerequisitives than the detective although the novelists have a right led it astray with red herrings.

Besides, if Stan was such good to have "hunchs", why didn't she ever suspect Nina to be a double agent? Not that it wasn't human not to suspect one's lover. Plus, as a macho Stan couldn't believe that a little woman like Nina could outwit him.        

[vavera4ka]

I'd like to comment on Gabriel offering Elizabeth pierogi that his mom(?), grandma(?) used to make. There are no pierogi in Russia. There are pirogi (which is plural of pirog, which is just a pie). Russians would eat:

pelmeni (small dumplings, usually with meat)

pirozhki (fried yeast dough filled with almost anything you can imagine)

chebureki (thin dough meat pockets, fried)

manti (larger dumplings)

vareniki (boiled pierogi like things, most of the time with sweet filling)

If Gabriel is from somewhere close to Lithuania or Poland (present day Belarus, Western Ukraine, southwest parts of Russia) his mom or granma would be making potatoe pancakes with or without meat inside.

But yeah... no pierogi. That's a Polish dish and word. Obviously every culture has a version of that dish, but a KGB officer would never call it by a Polish word to another KGB officer. MAYBE to an unsuspecting American to describe what he is offering.

[Armchair Critic]

On 5/19/2016 at 2:03 AM, chocolatine said:

What a sad ending for Gaad

I am way late to this conversation but I am so bummed that Martha and Gaad are gone, they were my favorites.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I am way late to this conversation but I am so bummed that Martha and Gaad are gone, they were my favorites.

Yes, season 4 is by far my favorite season, but it did end up being mass murder (as far as being able to watch them) for far too many of the beloved cast ensemble.  I will never understand that.