S04.E10: Munchkins

[crgirl412]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

I'm a little surprised that Philip/Elizabeth have not tried in a gentle way to get Paige to bring back information from the Stan household.  I have a feeling some of these bits of information will start to collide in a very problematic way if Stan's son is talking to anyone at Paige's church and mentions the cool things his father does, like deal with the vanished KGB secretary.  This is like a lot of live wires that are getting a little too close to one another, and all it takes is two wires to make a spark for Pastor Tim/Alice, or Stan, or Paige. 

Totally random:  I loved seeing the 1970s Rival Crockpot in this episode.  That model got me through college and grad school.  I could make lasagna in that thing.  Harvest Gold! 

This is the one my family had while I was growing up!!! It might still be somewhere at my parents house! I just watched episode last night on iTunes and I was so excited to see it!! 

[jjj]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

I agree that we were supposed to think Stan would think Martha an unlikely person to read "Shogun". Remember, it's 1983 and he's somewhat sexist about traditional men and women's interests... So to him it indicated there might be a man in her life, hanging out and reading, so pretty comfortable at her place, etc. He's trained to put clues like that together.

If you were not around in the early 1980s, you might not know what a heartthrob Richard Chamberlain was (that's the IMDB word: "heartthrob")-- the ladies loved him as a romantic hero, and he was a favorite for mini-series then (Shogun, Centennial, THE THORNBIRDS, OMG!).  Many women were reading Shogun after seeing him in the mini-series.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I have no idea why Shogun would mean anything.  I read all of those books and adored them. 

I'll bet you read them as literature, without seeing Richard Chamberlain first!  (I was in college, still have not read or seen these.  But Shogun was definitely a thing.) 

[Umbelina]

19 minutes ago, jjj said:

If you were not around in the early 1980s, you might not know what a heartthrob Richard Chamberlain was (that's the IMDB word: "heartthrob")-- the ladies loved him as a romantic hero, and he was a favorite for mini-series then (Shogun, Centennial, THE THORNBIRDS, OMG!).  Many women were reading Shogun after seeing him in the mini-series.

I'll bet you read them as literature, without seeing Richard Chamberlain first!  (I was in college, still have not read or seen these.  But Shogun was definitely a thing.) 

I read them partly because I'd learned a bit of Japanese, and became fascinated with the language and culture and history.

I admit to being thrilled when the miniseries came out though.  I still own it on VCR tapes.  Ha.

ETA @jjj Totally agree about Richard Chamberlain though, to this day The Thornbirds stands with a very few other things on film as one of the sexiest things I've ever seen, one of those I remember, they caught the passion of sex, not the graphics, something so much crappy porn completely misses.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, jjj said:

If you were not around in the early 1980s, you might not know what a heartthrob Richard Chamberlain was (that's the IMDB word: "heartthrob")-- the ladies loved him as a romantic hero, and he was a favorite for mini-series then (Shogun, Centennial, THE THORNBIRDS, OMG!).  Many women were reading Shogun after seeing him in the mini-series.

Stan might not have known that either!

I don't think Stan was necessarily right about the book (though he also may very well have been) but I think his noticing it and the camera showing him noticing it was definitely supposed to tell us that Stan thought there was somebody else as a frequent visitor, especially a man.

Also I think it was maybe intentionally something that was too vague to tell him anything for sure. If she had a shaving kit and men's slippers by the bed it would tell him she had a boyfriend. Instead she just had a book that a woman could totally have been reading even without the miniseries--it was a bestseller. So it was like he looked twice at it, but that wasn't enough. He never mentioned it again as any kind of sign there was a guy there.

[jjj]

I'll have to watch that section of that episode again.  I have always thought of Shogun as a chick lit book, because I knew so many women reading it in the early 1980s.  I honestly had never thought of it as a book associated with men's leisure reading. 

I have no idea how to send praise to the writer of the recaps for episodes, but I loved the descriptions of Henry's many sound-cancelling activities that actually occurred in the episode, or proposed for Henry (off spelunking in caves somewhere; mis-use of a giant box of Q-Tips!).  And the comment about the cooking skills of Philip's mother ("she made a soup I liked"  "so that's....great?").  Thanks for a snarky, insightful recap!  And great GIFs.

[Bubbetv]

I wasn't patient enough to sit through the Shogun miniseries, but I tore through that book! I was struck when Stan picked it up because of its most powerful 'scene' (imo).

 

The Richard Chamberlain character is telling the Shogun that mutiny (or a coup) is absolutely not ALWAYS wrong. At the risk of losing his head, or worse, at the blasphemy, he argues about it. Shogun guy was furious, No! Never! And Chamberlain says Yes! It is sometimes right! 

 

I'm paraphrasing like crazy here, but the gist was that it's Right to take the throne of power IF YOU WIN

 

and Shogun collapses into laughter.

 

If Stan read it, he might be wondering which team Martha was betting to win...

[Anela]

On 5/22/2016 at 8:21 PM, wonderwoman said:

Okay, bear with me here because I may well have forgotten something. But, while we know Stan should suspect P&E, I'm having a hard time recalling anything that's happened that suggests he should know. 

I hadn't seen this, until I saw someone else quote it. I agree - we've seen him do a good job, once he's on the trail of something. It was just a passing thought. Like getting to Paige through his son, somehow (since she's been a little "off" with the worry). He would be watching them all the time, though, if he really suspected them. 

[hellmouse]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Another thing that struck me in this ep re: Philip's conversation with Paige. Lots of people blabbing to others in the ep, but not always saying things because the other person wanted to hear them. Jim told Kimmie she shouldn't have told him about what her dad told her. Paige wasn't fishing for spy info from Matthew, but she got it. Still, Matthew's relaying of the story made sense given what Paige did ask about, which was Stan's work.

What I really thought about, though, was how Matthew says Stan's been "chatty" about a lot of things lately, and he thinks it's because it's Stan's way of knowing he appreciates him being there. First, that's another nod to how growing up means becoming more like a spy even if you're not one. Matthew has sussed out Stan's motivations for suddenly telling him this stuff and seems to forgive him, but not completely buy it. That is, he's not upset that he thinks Stan is doing this, but sort of sees it as a clumsy attempt to make Matthew want to be there. He's not at the age where he's just like "My dad's got the coolest job and he totes trusts me with all this info!"

Back when Paige first learned the truth Elizabeth told her stories of her mother shushing the neighbors in their communal apartment. Paige responded by asking why she should believe anything she said. In that scene, Elizabeth seemed to be telling Paige these details because Elizabeth herself wanted to be known. She couldn't wait to talk about home and her mom, wanting Paige to know and accept her for what she was, even maybe admire her, and Paige wasn't having it.

So it seemed interesting that at the start of the ep, before it all goes to hell, we see what appears to be the first time Paige hesitantly asked about growing up in Russia. And Philip, who has never given her any info unless she specifically asked for it on this topic, answers very carefully, like he's trying to give her exactly what she wants. They can't completely connect on the questions and answers since their experiences are so different, but like even the way he gives her just enough context about where he grew up to explain his father as a logger instead of just saying he was a logger (a profession with which Paige would never have any connection) is trying to frame things the right way. When she asks if his mom's a good cook he apparently can't answer but does try to give her some truth with "She made a soup I liked."

I wonder if it would be like liking Tobolsk. He wouldn't have thought of whether he liked it or not, because it just had to be done. It's quite possible he did like it but it didn't occur to him to want to plot a garden because he doesn't see gardening as a hobby and his Philip Jennings persona wouldn't create a garden to save money.

I love your insight here! Elizabeth shared with Paige because she wanted to be known. Neither Philip nor Elizabeth are super-talkative people, but Elizabeth is more likely to say what she thinks when she wants to be known. She shared what she wanted to say.  Meanwhile Philip is rarely one to dictate the terms or topic of a conversation. He shares what he thinks others want him to say. He assesses the situation and responds accordingly with deflection, redirection, etc. It's probably a self-protective skill he developed as a child and it serves him well as a spy. So that's what he does with Paige, because that's what he does with everyone, but he tries to be honest to the extent he thinks she can handle it.

When he said he had a job after school, Paige probably assumed he meant high school, whereas I was thinking it was probably when he was much younger. 

People confide in others because they want to share, and because they want to feel close. So when Kimmy tells Philip about her father and he shuts her down, he's really responding as Philip to his own daughter Paige. I wonder if as a spy the better move would have been to encourage Kimmy to say more so that she feels accepted in her confidence. IDK, maybe his approach supports the persona he seems to have developed with her.

[Anela]

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, that's what I'm feeling too, all of the frayed or loose edges are approaching combustion, and all it will take is a match, deliberate or accidental.

I was going to respond to your posts about this, but my own would be straying off-topic, so I might take it somewhere else. 

2 hours ago, jjj said:

If you were not around in the early 1980s, you might not know what a heartthrob Richard Chamberlain was (that's the IMDB word: "heartthrob")-- the ladies loved him as a romantic hero, and he was a favorite for mini-series then (Shogun, Centennial, THE THORNBIRDS, OMG!).  Many women were reading Shogun after seeing him in the mini-series.

I'll bet you read them as literature, without seeing Richard Chamberlain first!  (I was in college, still have not read or seen these.  But Shogun was definitely a thing.) 

I remember Shogun! Not a book, but the mini-series. Just vaguely, but I remember Richard Chamberlain, and it being re-broadcast at some point, when I was six or seven, during the day, when we had our school holidays. I'm pretty sure that's the case, unless my memory is merging with something else. I'm going to have to look up both the show, and the book. 

I completely missed Stan seeing that book - I have no recollection of it. I'll have to watch everything again. 

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

People confide in others because they want to share, and because they want to feel close. So when Kimmy tells Philip about her father and he shuts her down, he's really responding as Philip to his own daughter Paige. I wonder if as a spy the better move would have been to encourage Kimmy to say more so that she feels accepted in her confidence. IDK, maybe his approach supports the persona he seems to have developed with her.

Yeah, there's so many ways of looking at it. On one hand it probably is good in some ways for his persona because it shows he's uninterested in her father's job--when of course it's really the whole reason he's there.

He's also speaking completely for himself and saying what he feels about the situation with Paige, that he would like to be closer to her via the secret (secrets are almost the only language of closeness he has) and her not keeping the secret keeps them from being close. It's an interesting little base note to what Elizabeth was saying all the season before, how she wanted Paige to know who she (Paige? Or herself?) was, obviously wanting them to work together on the cause and not be separated, to be known. Philip never said anything about thoughts on that subject to her. He just focused on how it was wrong for Paige, but now here he is echoing it in a quieter way in a different persona. And also almost saying to Kimmie that he knows that the closeness is what she really wants. Kimmie, after all, is in some ways a lot like Martha in that she's very lonely and wants to be special to someone.

Then on a third level he's kind of...making himself more of a ghost? I mean, in essentially giving Kimmie back her secret as best he can, he's encouraging her to work on the relationship with her father, help keep that family intact. I said "ghosting" because it's almost like a nod to how the Jim relationship isn't real, that Kimmie should keep working on the relationship with her father who loves her, however imperfect it is. Martha gave up a chance for a real romance for Clark. Kimmie has a real father.

I just realized, Philip is responsible for Stan getting Matthew back too, and Stan and Kimmie's dad both then tried to get closer to their kid by sharing secrets about their jobs, just like Philip did.  And while in some ways Paige's reaction is the worst of the three, in another way that's kind of making the Jennings fight their way to each other harder.

[hellmouse]

I think you're right about Philip and secrets. The very nature of something being secret makes it more precious and therefore even more meaningful when shared. Even though she didn't keep the secret, he has still been very gentle in building a new relationship with Paige, one that contains this knowledge. Saying new relationship might not be right - he's still the same dad she had before. But there is a different level of intimacy and trust, and each parent in their own way is trying to build the relationship with these new elements. 

I often think about the fact that Paige initiated the disclosure of Philip and Elizabeth's true identities. They didn't seem really prepared to talk to her, and certainly not prepared for how she might react. Would it have gone better if the time and tone of the telling had been chosen by them instead of by Paige? I'm sure that Isaac Breeland, Kimmie's father, didn't tell her on a whim. Obviously the secrets being shared are different, but all the more reason for Philip and Elizabeth to have been better prepared for it. But they could never agree on telling her, so they never agreed on how/when/what to tell her. 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Then on a third level he's kind of...making himself more of a ghost? I mean, in essentially giving Kimmie back her secret as best he can, he's encouraging her to work on the relationship with her father, help keep that family intact. I said "ghosting" because it's almost like a nod to how the Jim relationship isn't real, that Kimmie should keep working on the relationship with her father who loves her, however imperfect it is. Martha gave up a chance for a real romance for Clark. Kimmie has a real father.

I agree with you about the "ghosting" with Kimmie. He's steering her towards the real relationship in her life (with her dad), just as he's encouraging her to date boys closer to her own age. It's pragmatic but it's also kind. 

[AliShibaz]

If the writers wanted to show us that Paige has what it takes to become a good spy, I would think they would show her getting close to Matthew and having him tell her stuff about his dad's job. Also, they might show us Paige asking one or both of her parents how they would feel about her relaying info she heard from Matthew.

By the end of the show, they could try to promote the idea that Paige will become a great spy. But I somehow doubt all of that. If she was ever seriously confronted with the idea of becoming a spy for the USSR (just like mommy), I think it would cause her to have some kind of breakdown. She just doesn't seemed equpped for that. AAMOF, she doesn't really seem to be equipped for anything - except maybe having some kind of role in her church. That seems to appeal to her. But, then again, it's just about the only thing she has ever experienced that could possibly offer her the way to participate in something.

[Gella]

On May 19, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Umbelina said:

As Sepinwall noted in his review that I posted, Gabe was lying his ass off.  It was just Gabe handling Elizabeth, continuing to make her trust and feel obligated to him, because he cares.

None right now, but if somehow Stan tries to connect more with his son, and gives a few details in answering questions?  It could.  It could go either way.  I can believably envision Stan telling him unimportant stuff like "yeah, this pretend husband was only there 3 days a week."  They would probably have an idea of the pattern, from the super or other neighbors.

I don't think Stan is a moron.  He's the one who suspected and proved Martha was bad.  He's the one who never believed the convenient suicide.  When he first came on the show he had PSTD from his long term embedded with skin heads duty.  He was suspecting everyone, including the Jennings, but his wife told him that was simply nuts, basically, "honey, you are home now, relax, get back into our real life."  That made perfect sense.  Stan was still in that state when Nina happened, and Nina WAS being honest with him until she was caught, he was getting information.  He's not "super spy" but I don't think he's a bad spy either.

I don't think the pastor's wife making the tape worsened her situation.  On the contrary, I think it was brilliant, logical, and I hope to hell she really did it.  I wouldn't have made it at home, or called lawyers from home either.  Then again, she's about ready to pop, and her hormones are all over the place, so who knows?

As far as Elizabeth?  This is not being pulled out of thin air, this is years of a TV show watching many events that are changing her.  I completely believed it.

I think Gaad was trying to escape, which really?  Was his only option.  They weren't going to leave without him, one way or another.

No, the dad scene didn't seem weird to me at all.  It's been what?  8 months now?  Him coming to check on what was happening with his daughter's disappearance seems very logical to me. 

Martha's op, Kimmie's op, training Hans op, Young Hee's op, 25 years at the lab William's op, Nina's long term op...  I don't know, I think many ops are allowed to breathe, and I really love how long it took Elizabeth with Young Hee.  It's been almost a year now for that one.  I already kind of addresses Stan earlier, so I'll just add, there is a difference between being at home and being embedded in the Aryan Brotherhood world as a spy.  Of course you are suspicious of everything in the 2nd, but at home?  You could easily go insane suspecting every store clerk, neighbor, repairman, etc.  I think Stan's doing a good job already, but I agree with you that Gaad's murder is going to put him in extremely high gear.  Frankly, the entire FBI will go into attack mode.

Absolutely.  At first I though, come on Gaad, play for time here!  Then I realized he already knew he'd have to escape or he would give them information that could be used to hurt the USA.

What?  Domestic Violence has always been a widespread problem!  There just weren't laws against it, and people didn't talk about it.  Today it's sometimes not just a dirty little secret the family hides and neighbors ignore because "you don't interfere between a man and wife" but believe me when I tell you, it's nothing new.

 

They could, or they could end up seeing Stan as someone they could go to easily to tell the FBI about the Jennings.

He will.  No doubt. 

The Pastor and his wife's idiocy may be understandable in one way.  Maybe they believe God will protect them because they are doing good work.  Although, you'd think history would have told them that believers are not immune.  I don't get religious fanatics, but again, I keep thinking of the pastor as a less nasty version of the dad in The Poisonwood Bible.

Agents with perfect accents were used for more important/delicate work than B&E and abductions.  Most KGB didn't try, and couldn't if they did, to hide their accents.  The only unbelievable part of the Jennings' story is where they do things that regular KGB teams or Arkady's group would handle, like abductions and B&E.  That's just show stuff, because it would be pretty boring watching them develop someone like Young Hee for a year (which is what they'd really be doing most of the time.)

 

ETA

Did we see subtle shoulder pads under Paige's sweater?  It sure seemed like it!

I disagree on domestic violence. Yes, it definitely became a widespread problem in the nineties (along with many other crimes against women), but we are talking soviet times. Unless we are specifically told his father beat his mother up I think it's safe to say Philip grew up in a household where his mother was the stronger harsher parent. His parenting style is basically allowing Elizabeth to be the "bad cop" while he is the cooler softer more absent parent. 

[Clanstarling]

The mother being the stronger, harsher parent doesn't preclude domestic violence. There are men who are beaten by their wives (which brings its own set of emotional damage to the children) and being strong and harsh doesn't mean you can't have a partner stronger and harsher than you, who is inclined toward violence.

Domestic violence has always been with us, in all eras, countries, cultures, and socioeconomic eras. 

However, I do agree that we don't really have enough information to conclude that his father was violent.

[madam magpie]

Philip's reaction was communicating something, I think, and my first thought was a violent father too. Philip is now incredibly gentle with his wife and children, and his reaction to Elizabeth's rapist was fierce and immediate. His reaction to her being beaten with a belt by that creepy guy was also very strong. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that he grew up watching his mother be abused.

Domestic violence didn't become a problem in the 1990s; it started becoming more out in the open then. Men have been beating their wives and children since the beginning of time. It's just that only recently did women get any legal support and power...in the US. I have no idea what kind of domestic violence legislation the Soviets had, but they aren't known as a particularly gentle people.

Edited May 23, 2016 by madam magpie

[jjj]

19 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Philip's reaction was communicating something, I think, and my first thought was a violent father too. Philip is now incredibly gentle with his wife and children, and his reaction to Elizabeth's rapist was fierce and immediate. His reaction to her being beaten with a belt by that creepy guy was also very strong. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that he grew up watching his mother be abused.

Domestic violence didn't become a problem in the 1990s; it started becoming more out in the open then. Men have been beating their wives and children since the beginning of time. It's just that only recently did women get any legal support and power...in the US. I have no idea what kind of domestic violence legislation the Soviets had, but they aren't known as a particularly gentle people.

I completely agree -- I think Philip was quite guarded in what he said about his father, and to me that said he had spent most of a lifetime keeping a secret about violence.  He did not want to add to Paige's anxiety by talking in detail about what sounds like a very tough childhood.  And you make a great point about his fierceness with Elizabeth's rapist -- there is a rage in Philip that rarely emerges, and that could be him fighting very old battles when that deep hurt is touched.  Philip lashing out in blind rage, from a very early age (the boy he murdered as a child, Elizabeth's rapist) is very different from Philip fighting to protect himself. 

And yes, violence that happens to be domestic is and has been so prevalent throughout civilization, and today in countries where women (and children) do not have protection through the law.  In many cultures and in history, men had/have complete control over their wives and children, and it was/is their business how they treat them. 

[madam magpie]

I also think the fact that he lets her lead (when it comes to sex and parenting) says something. I guess one read could be that his mother was overpowering, but I never really got that. I think he lets Elizabeth lead because he understands that she needs to feel in control, not because he's cowed to her. Elizabeth collapses when she doesn't have control. Her reactions are everything from flustered to a crying mess. Philip doesn't need to dominate her to feel masculine and he has a strong sense of empathy for her emotional need for control. It's one of his best qualities, I think.

[hellmouse]

If we think that Philip's father drank too much, then it's very possible he beat his wife and/or children. Alcohol changes people. A lot of Philip's skill at reading people could come from dealing with an unpredictable alcoholic parent. His mother probably was strong and tough but that doesn't preclude violence from a spouse under the influence. 

[RedHawk]

I didn't take "tired" to mean violent, although certainly that could have been the case and might explain Philip's explosiveness. I thought it could also mean "withdrawn" and not "emotionally available" as we now say it. As in, he went to work and did his best to earn for his family but it took so much out of him physically that he had nothing left to give to his wife and son. No jokes, little conversation or closeness, just eating dinner and doing whatever chores he had to do around the house, and then going inside himself. 
 

Edited May 23, 2016 by RedHawk

[Gella]

There were plenty of Soviet men who drank (although heavy functional drinking was somehow  not considered alcoholism), did not help with any housework, were pretty emotionally un-involved, cheated, and plenty who harshly "disciplined" their kids (especially boys) when the school called with bad news. All of that was considered par for the course. Wife-beating was a whole different story though. Most women I knew, including my friends' mothers could hold their own and gave as good as they got. That's not to say Philip's father could not have been a violent man, but I just think it's a stretch to presume that he automatically was one. 

What I think was very good was Philip alluding to the fact that one didn't wonder whether one liked living in Tobolsk. That whole attitude of accepting life as is and finding things to like and things to bear rang especially true. 

Poor Gaad. That seemed quite a senseless way to die.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Gella

[madam magpie]

3 minutes ago, Gella said:

I've known plenty of Soviet men who drank (although heavy functional drinking was somehow  not considered alcoholism), did not help with any housework, were pretty emotionally un-involved, cheated, and plenty who harshly "disciplined" their kids (especially boys) when the school called with bad news. All of that was considered par for the course. Wife-beating was a whole different story though. Most women I knew, including my friends' mothers could hold their own and gave as good as they got. 

I don't think any of that is unique to Soviets. 

[hellmouse]

14 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

I didn't take "tired" to mean violent, although certainly that could have been the case and might explain Philip's explosiveness. I thought it could also mean "withdrawn" and not "emotionally available" as we now say it. As in, he went to work and did his best to earn for his family but it took so much out of him physically that he had nothing left to give to his wife and son. No jokes, little conversation or closeness, just eating dinner and doing whatever chores he had to do around the house, and then going inside himself. 
 

I took "tired" to mean all of what you say, but also alcohol. And alcohol abuse can lead to violence, although it certainly doesn't always. It can also just create an atmosphere of fear. Sometimes a spouse is beaten as a result of trying to protect the children.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, clanstarling said:

However, I do agree that we don't really have enough information to conclude that his father was violent.

Yes, what I got from it was just that it was a euphemism for something. It made enough of an impression on him that it's one of the first things he says to Paige. Iirc, he seemed to be verifying that his father did die when he was six, and this might be his main memory of the guy, as a ghostly figure who was home in the evenings but not really present. He could have just said he was a logger. Paige hadn't asked what he was like at home.

"Tired" makes logical sense as a way to talk about abuse--he was "tired" so he had a quick temper and that was the excuse for him being violent. Or it could also mean that he drank. Or that he was depressed, quiet and distant. I remember just recently reading about a Russian poet whose work was based on conversations with people and she's of P&E's generation. She spoke about how the women always seemed to be in charge of everything because the men were either dead or half-dead after the war. This seemed to be related at heart to a sort of PTSD or survivor's guilt. A person might drink to deal with that, or be violent, or be chronically depressed. And drinking often leads to violence--the whole temperance movement in the US was very much tied to women's rights because a marriage without rights with an alcoholic was so much worse. What seems impossible is that Philip's father would not be expressing some reaction to the war in which he presumably fought. Elizabeth's father was shot for desertion, and I think a lot of deserting soldiers did that because they simply snapped. Philip's father made it through the war, is remembered as "tired" by his son and didn't survive the war by that many years. 

As others have said, Philip's whole way of dealing with people makes sense if he was in any sort of abusive situation. I think many kids in that situation become hyper-sensitive to other peoples' moods both to keep them happy so they don't lash out and to tell when they're about to explode so they can get away. Philip has always been somebody who's gentle and protective of people he sees as innocent/good/his own but also very able to be violent in their defense *and* capable of serious rage. He was angry enough to beat somebody to death at 10. 

But perhaps it wasn't his father who was harsh to him. Maybe he just wasn't able to protect him. We don't know. But I know even if the Philip character was an American living in 2016 I'd think "tired" was hinting at something more than just his dad not playing hockey with him in their driveway.

[shura]

On 5/21/2016 at 1:04 PM, clanstarling said:

On the other hand, at the end when she decided the timing was off in retrieving the tape (real or not), she showed herself to be developing some skills in reading people and understanding when not to push. At least when it isn't her parents.

I am kind of puzzled about the "it's not the right time to ask Alice for the tape" thing. First, she can always have a copy or make a completely new tape, so asking her to give up this tape doesn't really protect P&E anyhow. And second, when would be a good time anyway? When would be the right time to say "hey, Alice, could you give us that only thing that keeps us from killing you?" Is there any way she could take such request without it reaffirming her conviction that it's a great idea to actually have the tape and never give it up?

I think I need to go check out chick lit at the bookstore. If Shogun is it, then maybe I've been missing out on some really good reading.

[RedHawk]

Exactly. "Tired" could mean many things. I'm not going to assume it means heavy drinker or violent because we just don't know that. He may have been a raging, brutal alcoholic or a gentle man who was defeated and broken and non-communicative.

Interesting that so far we don't have evidence that Philip had or has siblings.

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Interesting that so far we don't have evidence that Philip had or has siblings.

Or what happened to his mother. If his father died when he was six we have reason why there's no on-going relationship with him referenced, like Elizabeth has her mother's tapes. But what about his mother? Did that play at all into why he thought Elizabeth should see her own mother before she died? Did he ever have tapes from her?

Also, it's funny that when Paige and Elizabeth were going to Germany and Philip said he was sorry he wouldn't get to meet her mother Elizabeth said, "You wouldn't like her." With Paige she cautions her that she's "tough" as if pre-emptively preparing for Paige not liking her.

Yet here's Philip talking about his own mother and he describes her exactly the same way, saying she's primarily tough and even Paige notes this sounds just like Elizabeth sounding like her mother. Would he have liked Elizabeth's mother? Or is there a fundamental difference between them? Did his mother also "not blink" when the KGB tapped him? If she was no longer alive, would she have? 

[madam magpie]

Elizabeth's mother sent a teenager off alone to KGB training to serve the govt. I always thought that kind of "hard" is what Elizabeth meant when she said Philip wouldn't like her mother. Also telling in that sequence was how horrified Page was to learn Elizabeth's mother had allowed that, and fear that Elizabeth would do something similar to her. Instead, Elizabeth was very clear that she would not.

[hellmouse]

4 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Elizabeth's mother sent a teenager off alone to KGB training to serve the govt. I always thought that kind of "hard" is what Elizabeth meant when she said Philip wouldn't like her mother. Also telling in that sequence was how horrified Page was to learn Elizabeth's mother had allowed that, and fear that Elizabeth would do something similar to her. Instead, Elizabeth was very clear that she would not.

I remember Elizabeth's response being slightly less reassuring, at least from Paige's perspective. Paige asked if Elizabeth would let Paige do that (say goodbye forever) and Elizabeth said very firmly that Paige would never have to do that. 

But if I were Paige, my question would feel unanswered. It's not whether I would have to do that, it's would my mother let me do it? Elizabeth doesn't answer that question.

[wendyg]

SisterMagpie: I found in a visit to Alaska last December that the same is true there. Everyone is *very* generous and helpful, and I think it's precisely because you never know when you'll be stuck somewhere in that dangerous weather or who will be the only person to come along.

Umbelina: yes. Skeptics talk about that sort of thing a lot with respect to dowsing, ESP, and other such phenomena - that people don't always recognize consciously the cues they're reacting to.

[sistermagpie]

22 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Elizabeth's mother sent a teenager off alone to KGB training to serve the govt. I always thought that kind of "hard" is what Elizabeth meant when she said Philip wouldn't like her mother.

But that's the question--did Philip's mother do the same thing? Because he joined the same program as Elizabeth did at that age. Is she aware of how Philip's mother reacted to the same idea and knows it wasn't like how her own mother did? Does she know Philip didn't have a mother by that point? Or does she assume he doesn't like his own mother either?

[madam magpie]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that's the question--did Philip's mother do the same thing? Because he joined the same program as Elizabeth did at that age. Is she aware of how Philip's mother reacted to the same idea and knows it wasn't like how her own mother did? Does she know Philip didn't have a mother by that point? Or does she assume he doesn't like his own mother either?

We don't know that, true. But I don't think we or Elizabeth needs to, actually. (Though I'd like to know!) Elizabeth knows how Philip feels about it in relation to their own children. I also think she was being a little funny/jokey there, though certainly conveying something real. 

I always thought Philip was a street kid, but I don't know why I think that.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I always thought Philip was a street kid, but I don't know why I think that.

I think most of us did because he's so scrupulously avoided talking about any family even when he obviously would have said something about them. Even the few times we did hear something he was by himself. It was frankly kind of bizarre having him break four seasons of silence about his family (compared to so many mentions by Elizabeth of hers), coupled with an almost feverishly intense focus on family (meaning the Jennings) by just saying "Yeah, I had a normal family. Did I never mention that?"

[Umbelina]

41 minutes ago, wendyg said:

 

Umbelina: yes. Skeptics talk about that sort of thing a lot with respect to dowsing, ESP, and other such phenomena - that people don't always recognize consciously the cues they're reacting to.

I'm not really a skeptic, just someone who looks for logical explanations to things I, and my family, and frankly others I've know can do.  Ha.  Also, that doesn't mean I'm not skeptical of people who do it on TV or for money though, because I usually am.  ;)

http://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/crime/domestic-violence/worldwide-history-of-domestic-violence/ 
 

Quote

 

Worldwide History of Domestic Violence

Domestic violence is neither a new nor a localized problem. The myriad forms of domestic violence can be found all over the world, and evidence of its occurrence can be found as far back as written history goes. Through the various historical periods and different societies the world over, there have been many sociolegal precedents that either blatantly supported domestic violence or failed to condemn it. This long history of apathy toward the subject has created a huge mass of social, legal, cultural, and traditional beliefs and attitudes that contemporary societies have yet to overcome despite their best efforts. This research paper will explore these beliefs and attitudes to demonstrate how their influence far outweighs current attempts to create attitudes and beliefs against domestic violence in any form. By knowing what must be overcome, societies may be more successful in their efforts against domestic violence.

 

Much more at link of course.

As far as Philip's dad being "tired" I didn't jump to the conclusion that he beat his wife.  I do agree that it's certainly possible, and aside from that, beating your own kids is another thing that wasn't even considered wrong, and still isn't, all over the world.  Do I think that?  Not really, or rather, not as something Philip would think was out of the ordinary.  Not physically disciplining kids is a pretty new concept.

However, if I were to guess, what Philip was alluding to with the very suspect "tired?"  I'd guess depression or PTSD from war, in WWII called "battle fatigue" and before that called "shell shock."  It could also mean a more common variety of depression, triggered by the war, but fed by hard work and/or deprivation or lack of hope, maybe even depression at how very wrong the initially hopeful revolution for the people had gone?  Maybe he wanted to be a pianist, or doctor, or painter?  Maybe he was raised by a father who was involved peripherally in the death or betrayal of Czar Nicholas II of Russia, which after all wasn't that long ago, for his dad, July 17, 1918?  Or his dad was one of the Czar's defenders, and fear handed down that would be found out.  Tobolsk has an interesting history. 

Or his dad was simply depressed because he was, it wasn't well understood, and it's not as if he could go get some Prozac.  Since he died a young man, and of course he could have been ill and their certainly could have been an accident at work, logging was one of the most dangerous professions with few safety measures, but it's just as possible he killed himself.  "He was depressed." was something Philip could have heard from a young age.  The most honorific thing I can think of for Philip is that he found the body.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Umbelina

[wendyg]

Umbelina: that's what a skeptic *is*, even if you don't call yourself that. :) skepticism = inquiry.

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As far as Philip's dad being "tired" I didn't jump to the conclusion that he beat his wife.  I do agree that it's certainly possible, and aside from that, beating your own kids is another thing that wasn't even considered wrong, and still isn't, all over the world.  Do I think that?  Not really, or rather, not as something Philip would think was out of the ordinary.  Not physically disciplining kids is a pretty new concept.

That reminds me of another think people often focused on early on, that infamous slap that Elizabeth gives to Philip in the pilot (which also got MR attention at the audition) to which he doesn't react to at all. A lot of people pointed to that as proof that this is a guy who's used to some abuse.

But of course again, this doesn't mean his dad was an abuser or even if he hit him that he was any more abusive than anybody else. He had a lot of time in his life to get used to physical violence outside the home and his mother might have routinely given slaps as well without considering that abnormal. She was tough! 

Of course, Philip and Elizabeth are also often accused of being criminally bad parents because the kids are in the house alone too much, so there's another bit of evidence for these things changing with time. (And maybe it's the fact I grew in that same time period but I think the kids being home alone is fine in ways slapping them around isn't!)

Anyway, I do think Philip must have been reaching for something to explain his father and it's hard to believe the show didn't research how hard it was for men who survived the war when they decided to make his father a survivor (and kill him off when Philip was still a young boy). Philip might see as father as another person he would have wanted to protect rather than someone he feared, for instance.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, that ties into my "depression" theory as well.

Being tired is a common thing with depression.  We know he died when Philip was 6.  Suicide is also not uncommon with depression.

[RedHawk]

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think most of us did because he's so scrupulously avoided talking about any family even when he obviously would have said something about them. Even the few times we did hear something he was by himself. It was frankly kind of bizarre having him break four seasons of silence about his family (compared to so many mentions by Elizabeth of hers), coupled with an almost feverishly intense focus on family (meaning the Jennings) by just saying "Yeah, I had a normal family. Did I never mention that?"

But I don't think what Philip told Paige meant, "Yeah, I had a normal family". His dad died when he was 6, we don't know when (if) his mother died or what she did/how she coped after his father's death. I doubt we or Paige would see his family situation as "normal", it's just that he was sort of communicating that to her because maybe he thought she wouldn't understand just how tough it had been, or maybe he didn't want her to know that.

Someone above suggested that his mother may not have used threats or violence to get the money his boss withheld, but instead sex. That's also possible. She may have been the type of woman who, in those times, did whatever she had to do for her family's survival.

Yes, I thought about the execution of the Czar and his family. So maybe Philip is the son of Alexei Romanov, who managed to survive execution and become a logger in Tobolsk? ;-)

Edited May 23, 2016 by RedHawk

[madam magpie]

Sistermagpie: Do you mean when she elbowed him in the face to get to Timochev? (Or was there another slap?) People think that's evidence some kind of abuse?? It looked to me like Elizabeth had a singular objective, Philip was in her way, he was sort of stunned that she hit him, and by the time he shook it off, she was screaming at him to leave Timochev to her. And then Philip realized there was a lot more to it than he knew.

I love that entire sequence for so many reasons. It's so well done, and you get so much information with virtually no dialogue.

[hellmouse]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That reminds me of another think people often focused on early on, that infamous slap that Elizabeth gives to Philip in the pilot (which also got MR attention at the audition) to which he doesn't react to at all. A lot of people pointed to that as proof that this is a guy who's used to some abuse.

But of course again, this doesn't mean his dad was an abuser or even if he hit him that he was any more abusive than anybody else. He had a lot of time in his life to get used to physical violence outside the home and his mother might have routinely given slaps as well without considering that abnormal. She was tough! 

I also saw his reaction to that slap* as proof of a guy who has an ability to repress his instantaneous reactions. It also seemed like a window into their relationship in that she felt comfortable doing that and he did not react to her doing that. I'm not saying that she slapped him all the time. Just that his reaction indicated an acceptance of her full self, even anger expressed with violence. He doesn't need to respond with violence in order to assert himself. I am probably reading too much into it, but I found it interesting.

Everyone has raised such good points about what would have made his father "tired". I admit my first thought was that it must have included alcohol, but maybe not. 

*the slap in the laundry room after he has proposed defecting

Edited May 23, 2016 by hellmouse

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

But I don't think what Philip told Paige meant, "Yeah, I had a normal family". His dad died when he was 6, we don't know when (if) his mother died or what she did/how she coped after his father's death.

Oh yes, I meant more in terms of the viewer and using "normal" to refer to his actually having one at all--a mom and a dad. With all that silence a lot of people were waiting for an explanation of how he grew up without a family so to hear him mention a mother and father after all this time was a surprise. I remember even a recapper earlier this season referred to him casually as an orphan in those flashbacks, but it doesn't seem like he was. He would have still had a mother at least by then.

Of course almost nothing in his life would be "normal" to Paige, that's true. (I even noticed in this ep how Paige tends to use the American teenager catch-all phrase "weird" to describe any situation she doesn't totally understand. I think that use of weird might even be more common to teenagers today than it was in 1983.)

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

Do you mean when she elbowed him in the face to get to Timochev? (Or was there another slap?) People think that's evidence some kind of abuse??

No, it's when they're arguing about bringing Timoshev in. She asks what he expects to tell the children if they go into Witness Protection. He says, "The truth" and she slaps him. Then they just continue arguing like that didn't happen. Apparently in an early audition they had KR slap MR and that's what he did there, which they immediately liked because they thought it was important that Philip reacted that way. It wasn't any big dramatic thing, he just ignored it.

So since he's obviously somebody unfazed by being slapped in the face, some people linked that to childhood abuse. But the guy's a KGB agent who grew up in a world where we now know he'd killed before he was a teenager. His parents could have never have laid a hand on him at all and he'd still not be bothered by a slap from an angry wife.

49 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I also saw his reaction to that slap as proof of a guy who has an ability to repress his instantaneous reactions. It also seemed like a window into their relationship in that she felt comfortable doing that and he did not react to her doing that. I'm not saying that she slapped him all the time. Just that his reaction indicated an acceptance of her full self, even anger expressed with violence. He doesn't need to respond with violence in order to assert himself. I am probably reading too much into it, but I found it interesting.

That's a great point, especially about being able to suppress his reactions. We know they can both do that and even on Elizabeth's side I don't read the slap as her acting purely out of emotion at all. It seems like felt that was a completely appropriate, rational response to what he had said. And he reacts to it as such--he lets his head turn to absorb to blow and then turns back as if to say he knows he said something shocking, but he's going to stand his ground anyway. Often on shows slaps are used to shock and are shocking. 

On top of everything you said, too, is I like how it shows them as having such a physical relationship even back then. A few eps later there's a scene where Philip's got a minor injury and Elizabeth is pulling up his shirt and dealing with it even when he's sort of shrugging her off. All great little signs of that sort of thing.

Edited May 23, 2016 by sistermagpie

[lidarose9]

Re: P&E's parents. Many of the Soviet soldiers who somehow survived the war, as thanks for their service, were convicted of being traitors and sent to Siberia. Even if that was not the case with P's father, he would likely have seen horrific things during the war. Soviet solders sometimes had no ammunition and were used as straight-up cannon fodder. The Germans routinely starved their Soviet prisoners-of-war to death, making zero effort to abide by the Geneva convention. They would entertain themselves tossing a loaf of moldy bread into the compound and watch the desperate prisoners tear each other apart for a bite. The Soviets were viewed as communist vermin, no different from Jews or gypsies. When the Germans invaded Russia, they murdered whole villages en masse as they rolled east. They would bury the dead, then came back and dig them up and burn the bodies, and bury the ashes, to hide the evidence of their atrocities.

I knew a woman who had been born in the Ukraine. Her father was in the war, and when the Germans invaded, her mother took herself and her brother and traveled to Siberia (alone!) to flee the Germans. I asked about her other family, grandparents, etc. She said all the rest of her family had starved to death during the famine of the 1930s. Millions of people starved to death. http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Sorrow-Soviet-Collectivization-Terror-Famine/dp/0195051807

During the 1930s and 1940s, as Stalinism become more paranoid and extreme, people routinely "disappeared" for no reason, no due process, no records, just gone. Maybe you made a joke about the local government being lazy or cheap. Your neighbor turned you in. It was common. 

So it is very much likely that P&E's parents had survived some really horrific shit. P&E both had to be marked by that. 

[Umbelina]

Thanks for that lidarose, it lead me to another book on Americans in Gulags, from one of the comments reviewing that book, which lead me to this furious review of that book.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R34HOJZYI6ELH1/ref=cm_cr_getr_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1594201684

I'm putting this review here, because, in many ways, I think it's how Elizabeth feels, or felt about socialism being the better option for humans over the USA capitalism system, and it touches on many, many things, though often from a Black person's perspective, and also at times raging, it's worth a read.  I think it explains why Elizabeth is so very, very loyal in ways I hadn't honestly considered.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Umbelina

[Gella]

My grandfather never talked about the things he had seen in the war, some of which I am sure were horrific. But he did tell me that during Stalin's times they all went to sleep with a packed suitcase, just in case that was the last night. Every time a car stopped downstairs in the dark one listened to hear whether anyone entered the building. And whether the footsteps stopped on your landing. Because those footsteps only meant one thing -- that this time they came for you. There didn't need to be a reason. Granted, afterwards things changed but P&E would have been the right age to catch the end of the Stalinist Era. 

I would also wonder how much of a choice would Elizabeth's mother really have in not letting her daughter join. From what I understood one didn't really say no. 

I wish Philip would get more of a back story. 

[RedHawk]

P&E may have been too young to really register what was going on in that era, but it's exactly what Gabriel has been talking about. 

[Ailianna]

It's interesting to notice that not one person has thought that Philip's use of the word "tired" might have meant just that.  I remember times when I was young that my father, working on certain jobs, would leave at 5 am or earlier to be at work, come home past 7 or 8, and be so tired and in so much pain from long physical hours that he would literally crawl into the house, lie on the living room floor, and sleep there, only to get up again the next day, and the next day, and the next day. 

My dad had a few different jobs when I was a kid, including working as a logger, and even in the relatively well-off US with labor laws, it's long hard hours and dangerous, physical work.  In Siberia in that time, lacking much of the kinds of equipment my dad and his coworkers had access to, it was longer and harder and more dangerous.  There were times in my childhood I barely saw my dad, and could go days without even talking to him. If he was sleeping, we let him sleep, since he was so tired. 

That's what I thought of when Philip said "tired."  Not that it was a euphemism, but that, like those times in my life, that's the only memory he had of his father, someone who was working to the edges of human ability at a physically demanding and dangerous job, not that he had bad memories.

I've also thought for a long time that Philip was on his own before the KGB, in practice if not in name.  And as his 10 year old interaction with the bullies show, he had reason to be good at reading people because he was in a rough and dangerous community.  But if his dad died when he was 6, he wouldn't have a lot of memories of his dad, and it might just mostly be of a man who was working himself to death, and was always tired.

[Darrenbrett]

I have really enjoyed reading and posting in this forum. The dialog about plot and character (and the 80s!) is always interesting. Alas, an overzealous moderator has soured the experience for me. I really wish people wouldn't abuse their ability to control what is written. Moderation in today's internet is absolutely necessary, but it's a power that should be wielded with humility and discretion. Here it appears that to make even a pointed remark about an important cultural issue, like sexism, is verboten; at least that's the case for one particular moderator - who refused to re-consider his deletion of my comment when I asked him about it. For the record, the comment that was deleted involved me stating that women are held up as sexual objects in media more so than men. Furthermore, apparently there's no process by which one can ask that a particular moderator's actions be examined. Alas, it's the iron fist. Be well, everyone. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Darrenbrett

[CarpeDiem54]

55 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

It's interesting to notice that not one person has thought that Philip's use of the word "tired" might have meant just that.  I remember times when I was young that my father, working on certain jobs, would leave at 5 am or earlier to be at work, come home past 7 or 8, and be so tired and in so much pain from long physical hours that he would literally crawl into the house, lie on the living room floor, and sleep there, only to get up again the next day, and the next day, and the next day. 

My dad had a few different jobs when I was a kid, including working as a logger, and even in the relatively well-off US with labor laws, it's long hard hours and dangerous, physical work.  In Siberia in that time, lacking much of the kinds of equipment my dad and his coworkers had access to, it was longer and harder and more dangerous.  There were times in my childhood I barely saw my dad, and could go days without even talking to him. If he was sleeping, we let him sleep, since he was so tired. 

That's what I thought of when Philip said "tired."  Not that it was a euphemism, but that, like those times in my life, that's the only memory he had of his father, someone who was working to the edges of human ability at a physically demanding and dangerous job, not that he had bad memories.

I've also thought for a long time that Philip was on his own before the KGB, in practice if not in name.  And as his 10 year old interaction with the bullies show, he had reason to be good at reading people because he was in a rough and dangerous community.  But if his dad died when he was 6, he wouldn't have a lot of memories of his dad, and it might just mostly be of a man who was working himself to death, and was always tired.

This!  I just took what Phillip said about his father at face value.  I also assumed that his father may have worked himself to death, exacerbated by poor nutrition and lack of decent healthcare.

[Umbelina]

Of course he could just be tired. 

It was the way he said it, combined with the fact that he died when Philip was six that is making people wonder if Philip wasn't quite ready to tell Paige the real truth.

[jjj]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Of course he could just be tired. 

It was the way he said it, combined with the fact that he died when Philip was six that is making people wonder if Philip wasn't quite ready to tell Paige the real truth.

--And the mixture of wanting to avoid confrontation and episodes of blind rage. 

[madam magpie]

And also the fact that this is a dramatic story that drips in subtext, so there's probably more to it, given the attention paid to the scene and the character's reactions.

Edited May 24, 2016 by madam magpie