S04.E10: Munchkins

[Umbelina]

See, I think in that moment, that one moment, Paige was so relieved, and letting go of so much tension that she didn't go to the wife to comfort her.  She went to collapse in safe arms, to let go for just a moment.

Very quickly though?  That switched.  She was no longer being comforted and safe, a grown woman was collapsing and sobbing in HER arms instead, she had to be the comforter, and the reality that she was handling this woman just completely the sense of "it's over."

Of course they are all looking out for her in their ways, but that's different that the childhood security of being the one taken cared of, the one with the feelings and emotions that must be considered.  In that moment, in a very real way, she grew up.  Not completely, but a very big part of childhood was lost in that moment.

 

I'm so not saying this well.  One of the reviewers said it much better, but I can't remember which one.  I posted the link earlier though.

Quote

Part of being initiated into adulthood is also learning how to share mature burdens, like we're seeing with Paige. When she visited Alice, the teenager collapsed in tears, but then soon found the pastor's wife in need of even more tearful comfort right back. Then Paige did that thing that characters do where her face showed that she knew more than she was letting on, but had to stay in the moment to be a certain person to Alice. Sympathy, or just smart espionage groundwork? Both? Whether she likes it or not Paige has become dependable enough to be seen as someone to lean on, both in terms of her real family and her church family. With her secret though, the only people Paige can seek comfort in are the same ones who have put her in such a lonely position. Which is tough because those are the same people you'd kind of be pissed at. 

Maybe it was this one, the rest of the review got so many things wrong, but I liked this insight.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

Considering the scene where Paige and Alice were alone in the church office. First Paige cried and then while Alice was hugging her Alice broke down sobbing, and Paige became the one giving comfort. It looked to me like when we saw Paige's face in closeup a minute later there were no actual tears. It made me think she had to fake-cry as part of her interaction with Alice. Did anyone else see it that way?

Yes, that's how I saw it too. Combined with her careful handling of Mrs. Tim when Tim was found, and clear headed evaluation of whether or not it was the time to ask for the tape, I saw it all as part of Paige slowly developing perspective and spy skills.

47 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Paige was really crying, in relief, and went into the arms of an adult who has actually comforted her, and who knows her situation.  What happened next was stunningly acted by both.  Suddenly the ADULT needed comforting, and there she was having to be the strong one again, to a woman she's been playing for months now, but honestly went to in that moment to be comforted, to have feel safe like it used to feel.  Instead?  She had to be the one comforting a very pregnant older woman.  At that point, the loss of it all, and the realization that she has no adults in her life anymore that honestly comfort her, dried up those tears.  It's gone.  Her childhood and innocence and being the one taken care of is gone.  She's not only the carer, but the betrayer. 

I think you said this very well. I get that, and am revisiting my intitial perceptions of the scenes.

[hippielamb]

Gabriel's back! I missed him last week. Something about him and also Claudia that I enjoy watching. Maybe because they are an older, wiser version of the Jennings. Paige putting a difference between her and "the Russians" is interesting. I was expecting her parents to remind her that she is Russian. Her comments really give us insight into her thinking. 

 

On 5/19/2016 at 10:37 AM, sistermagpie said:

I don't think peoples' reactions to characters always follow the same lines. For some people Paige being a teenager whose parents lie to her is the most important thing, for others that she ratted on her family, to others that she's whiny or whatever. She can be all those things. 

Yes, I can see both sides in this situation. Paige feeling upset that she was lied to for so long, I get. I was lied to as a child about something far less dramatic and it made me question things. So Paige's reactions are believable. I want to side with her but I just find her so damn annoying. Her parents have told her the danger of telling anyone and she just doesn't get it. I am inclined to see it from the Jennings' pov because this show is told from that perspective. 

On 5/19/2016 at 0:25 PM, sistermagpie said:

 

I don't even give him that much. I think he'd hate having to turn the Jennings over to the FBI when he could be in charge of their family. If they get sent away and they want to adopt Paige she can probably expect to spend a lot of time giving testimony about how Pastor Tim saved her and brought her to Jesus even if he couldn't help her misguided atheist parents.

Still, like I said above, you can see that ultimately Pastor Tim and Alice are "her people" in ways her parents aren't. Not just because of being American, but because of the bubble of entitlement and safety they live in.

I think that too. He bugs me considerably because he thinks his way of thinking is better. He wants to save Paige and keep her in his flock. Having dealt with real life religious people who have that same mindset, I feel very annoyed with him. I do think it is a honest portrayal and also of innocent goodie two shoes Paige who can't handle all this deceit. 

 

On 5/19/2016 at 6:27 PM, SlovakPrincess said:

Gaad!  Nooooo!  Not Agent John Boy Gaad!  :(

I nearly died laughing when Elizabeth got so offended that Paige would think they were "so stupid that we'd leave Alice [alive]?!"   Oh, Elizabeth.   You do you, I guess.  

I laughed at that Elizabeth scene too. Lol if Paige only knew the conversations they have had about offing the preachers...

[Clanstarling]

On a lighter, but related note. I feel a little sorry for Richard Thomas that he did such a great job as Gaad, and when Gaad died in that shocking manner I turned to the Mister and said "Good night, John boy." As many of you seemed to do too.

Edited May 21, 2016 by clanstarling
because my sentence structure sucks today.

[lidarose9]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Is that really what they're thinking, though? I mean, when they think of their hard childhood do they think this is something they would be blaming their country for and leaving it behind? Because that in itself seems more like the way Paige would see things because she was raised to feel entitled to all this stuff. I imagine that when they picture moving back to Russia with the kids they see the kids having to get used to a life that isn't as easy but probably also isn't like their own childhoods. If Philip was suggesting they run back to the USSR with the kids he can't see it as that bad.

I agree. Over the years when their kids have complained about not getting to go to Epcot or not getting the newest video game, P&E probably thought: "These kids have no idea! We were grateful for new shoes when we were kids!" "They'll be fine! They'll adjust!"... But when faced now with the very real prospect of having to take these kids to Russia and explain it all to them, they realize it's a whole lot more than just toys or vacations. Paige has been brought up to expect certain things, to have her own ideas, to speak up. Once you let the genii out of the bottle, how do you put it back? They're Soviet. Paige is American. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Of course they are all looking out for her in their ways, but that's different that the childhood security of being the one taken cared of, the one with the feelings and emotions that must be considered.  In that moment, in a very real way, she grew up.  Not completely, but a very big part of childhood was lost in that moment.

Oh I totally agree with how you read the scene--I think you did say it well. I was going off on a tangent and putting it in context with what we know about her own parents' lives. I think Paige did just want to collapse for a second and have some normalcy back, to just be a kid who feels so upset about this. And Mrs. Tim at first let her do that because she opened her arms for a hug. But within a second it was Alice crying--she was the person whose husband was gone, after all, and Paige was not only put in the position of comforting her but thinking again about exactly what the situation was. Even the way she first comes in she says, "You've done so much for me..." She's referring to how guilty at least in part to how Paige is partly responsible for this situation and she needs Alice to know she feels bad about it, and Alice gives her that forgiveness--but then she starts crying. There's no going back to a relationship where Paige is just the young ingenue. (Of course I also wanted to say to Paige, "Um, with all the stuff you do for that church, not to mention the money you gave them, they ought to be thanking you--Tim gets paid to be your spiritual advisor.") It's like someone said wrt Paige when Elizabeth yelled at her in David Copperfield, that Paige thinks the appropriate thing to do after telling Pastor Tim is to say she's sorry, but that doesn't really do enough.

6 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

I was expecting her parents to remind her that she is Russian. Her comments really give us insight into her thinking. 

I honestly don't think they do think of her as Russian in most ways. I mean, I expect it's complicated, but they must be keenly aware of just how little connection she has to anything about the country or them. Elizabeth probably wanted to see them as Russian in some fundamental way, but even she barely can think of them as Russian, I imagine.

And I don't even think Paige herself sees her parents as Russian. Intellectually, yes, she knows that's what they are. But what even practical things could she point to as "Russian" about them? Maybe they're a bit more strict about respect for your parents, especially Elizabeth. When pushed they'll yell about that. But where learning they were spies might have explained their secrecy and late hours, I doubt there's anything about them being Russian that seemed like it answered any questions or put their behavior in a different perspective, you know? She's not like Young Hee's kids who no doubt have tons of things they could point to as Korean while also being American themselves.

Also unrelated, but thinking more about those rakes. I don't know if they intended an overt callback to Kimmie's story about her dad and the big rake/little rake--but Kimmie does show up in this ep again, and there's really no other tool that's ever been significant. Umbelina also made me think about how it would make sense to assume that Philip's family had a garden, one that he no doubt would have done some work in too. So looking back that might be yet another thing that comes to mind when Kimmie tells him the story. We've seen Kimmie be a double for Paige in that she's missing the dad of her childhood in the rake story, spilling his CIA secret in this ep. It's also Kimmie that triggers his memories of his own sex training as a kid, after he has to run out of her house "like  teenager" when her dad comes home. It would be interesting if the showrunners were aware that gardening was a task Philip would have done with his own parent or parents but not something Paige or Henry would have done. They didn't write that ep, but they might have seen it as a happy accident. And whatever the writer of this ep included about Philip's backstory would obviously have to come from the J's.

[stagmania]

2 hours ago, scartact said:

The one thing I'm slightly weary about on the show is how often they conveniently have all their conversations together without Henry finding out, and no hints of his suspicions. They've had screaming matches and arguments and somehow he's remained oblivious (as far as we know)!

Having recently spent a lot of time with my teenage brother, I can say that this is actually quite realistic. Oblivious is an understatement. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

I realized in the episode's closing moments how much I'd wanted to slap the snot out of just about everybody in that episode. Everybody was annoying! I was waiting for Elizabeth to lie, ready to smack her too, and then when she told the truth, I was relieved. Once in a while, people have to be honest. Sometimes I think that is the whole point of this show: when your entire life is based on deception, how do you not lose sight of the real truth?

I used to tutor non-native English speakers for many years, and we have a lot of Russian immigrants living in this area, so I got to know a few people. The generation of Philip and Elizabeth's parents had lived through war, famine, starvation, mass murder, the gulag system: horrors beyond imagining. So they brought up their children to be good soldiers, to show no weakness, to do their duty absolutely without fail, to never, ever question authority. They grew up grateful to be given the opportunity to serve their country, seeing their work as vital and heroic and meaningful... plus they didn't have to starve to death or see their parents marched off in the middle of the night to never be seen again. There has never been anything in their lives in the US to make them step outside of that reality until now. It's been happening gradually for Philip, but it's happening now for Elizabeth in a big way.

Also P&E were also brought up to not talk about how bad it was. The USSR was determined to project an image of themselves as a successful, productive country full of happy, fulfilled people. NOBODY could say or do anything that conflicted with that image. You could not talk about it, write about it, publish, take pictures, anything -- on pain of death and maybe the death of your family as well. 

When Paige asks questions wanting to understand her parents' lives, they both know she can't even begin to imagine how awful it was, they've been programmed to not talk about it, and they don't want her to know. They are her parents, they want to protect her. They know if she had any clue about how horrible it was, she would ask them: "Why on earth are you still serving those people? And what's that got to do with NOW? with ME? And why on earth would I want to go live there myself? And how could you as my parents want that for me?" That is the question they can't really answer themselves. 

On another topic: I've been struggling with the believability that Tim and Alice would keep their mouths shut about this for 7 months. Apart from making themselves complicit, they also would have truly believed at the time that Soviet spies were THE WORST, like today if you knew someone from your church was hanging out with ISIS recruiters. I dunno about that whole thing. 

I think, that not only Paige can't understand it, many people today can't really grasp it either.  I have some insight from Russian friends, and from having to deal with the Russian Embassy in San Francisco in the seventies, for an older refugee Jewish couple that had adult children being made to suffer because their parents left.  Jobs, home, all possessions gone, parasites freezing to death, friends risking giving them shelter or sharing meager food when they could, for a night or day here and there.  The parents were trying to send them packages, coats, baby clothes, jeans, food, but all will returned, having been opened, with things missing, with scaring looking Russian stamps and warnings about contraband.  Talking to the embassy people, and using my normal American charm/brashness as needed, forcing them to agree to inspect packages AT the embassy before mailing, insisting they give me precise lists of what could or could not be sent, while the wife sat there shivering in terror at the way I was speaking to them, and the husband looked on in amazement that ANYONE would talk to officials that way?  Then later hearing a much closer Russian friend explain the reality of even doctors and hospitals having no medicine (at ALL) to use, that his parents were also punished when he escaped a few years before the wall came down? 

Still, all of the people I met loved their country, they just hated the politics.  Even with that though, they liked the socialist ideals, but not the communist result of those.  Their eyes though, when they would speak of going out and collecting dozens of kinds of mushrooms to supplement their diet, and just saying "all Russians know which mushrooms are poisonous, we had to, we would have starved without knowing plants of all kinds.

No one chose their job, they were given a job to do.  That's just another thing I think many Americans simply can't grasp, their are no choices.

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Is that really what they're thinking, though? I mean, when they think of their hard childhood do they think this is something they would be blaming their country for and leaving it behind? Because that in itself seems more like the way Paige would see things because she was raised to feel entitled to all this stuff. I imagine that when they picture moving back to Russia with the kids they see the kids having to get used to a life that isn't as easy but probably also isn't like their own childhoods. If Philip was suggesting they run back to the USSR with the kids he can't see it as that bad.

There's parts of the US, too, where people are struggling to survive just like Philip was, who have mothers who are predominantly tough and have to face down people with power to get a little something for their kids, who might be murdered without any justice etc. Philip has said flat-out that he wants to give his children the easy life where they never want for anything, but I feel like he just sees that as his prerogative as a father to indulge them. He doesn't have the "suffering is necessary to build character" view that Elizabeth has, but I think he still has respect for it.

In a way, this discussion has made me think of the depression in the USA.  Children raised by those who were children or teens during the depression probably have a lot in common with Paige and Henry.  Not the politics of course, but the parental attitude of what true deprivation was like.  Working in  the family garden in order to have food, not for a hobby, etc.  The intolerance for wastefulness, and the shock of children expecting things like "going to Epcot" when the only toys they had as children were made by a parent, or Hollyhock flower dolls made with the flower and a toothpick so they could dance like ballerinas.  The supreme treat of an orange in a Christmas stocking, or a few pieces of penny candy, maybe new shoes when school started, because the rest of the time they were barefoot.  Of course, Philip and Elizabeth were taken away from all of that quite early, put in a place with plenty of food, and other things (bowling allies!) so they could prepare for being believably "American."

1 hour ago, lidarose9 said:

I agree. Over the years when their kids have complained about not getting to go to Epcot or not getting the newest video game, P&E probably thought: "These kids have no idea! We were grateful for new shoes when we were kids!" "They'll be fine! They'll adjust!"... But when faced now with the very real prospect of having to take these kids to Russia and explain it all to them, they realize it's a whole lot more than just toys or vacations. Paige has been brought up to expect certain things, to have her own ideas, to speak up. Once you let the genii out of the bottle, how do you put it back? They're Soviet. Paige is American. 

Yes!  I kind of said it all above, but I agree.  Paige and Henry are definitely American, and even IF they get a relatively lux life as children of heroes in the USSR, it will never been OK.  Paige and Henry grew up with freedom, with questioning teachers and trusting the people around them, with speaking their minds, and none of that will exist for them in Russia. 

I think Philip would very much struggle with it as well should he return, and Elizabeth, aside from the children being unhappy would probably initially be thrilled, but I think even Elizabeth would end up recognizing that something was really not good in Russia, she's an idealist, and frankly, those people fall the hardest when they begin to consider that everything they believed and did may have been wrong.  (In a "fruit of the tree" way.)  I think she would still see the problems the USA has and causes, but day to day life would chaff her if she were to return, and she has her children there, because their faces would remind her of what's wrong every day.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[hippielamb]

58 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I honestly don't think they do think of her as Russian in most ways. I mean, I expect it's complicated, but they must be keenly aware of just how little connection she has to anything about the country or them. Elizabeth probably wanted to see them as Russian in some fundamental way, but even she barely can think of them as Russian, I imagine.

And I don't even think Paige herself sees her parents as Russian. Intellectually, yes, she knows that's what they are. But what even practical things could she point to as "Russian" about them? Maybe they're a bit more strict about respect for your parents, especially Elizabeth. When pushed they'll yell about that. But where learning they were spies might have explained their secrecy and late hours, I doubt there's anything about them being Russian that seemed like it answered any questions or put their behavior in a different perspective, you know? She's not like Young Hee's kids who no doubt have tons of things they could point to as Korean while also being American themselves.

That's a good point. I was raised in an immigrant family and have heard countless stories of "back home" much like Young-Hee's kids. But this is all new to Paige. She has no connection to her parent's culture or beliefs. I wonder even who she thought she was descended from, pre- the truth of their Russian lives. It really could mess with her identity, though maybe her ethnic background isn't as important to how she sees herself.

[AliShibaz]

On 2016-05-19 at 11:17 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Paige is getting good at this spy stuff.  She is also showing a talent for recruiting.  Holly Taylor has been on fire as of late and although I still miss Alison Wright (Poor Martha's dad the bar scene was heartbreaking) watching Paige manage her way through her new reality is mezmerizing.

A "talent for recruiting"? Really? Do you mean the part about not asking The Ogre to return this tape? You think that shows talent?  Or, was it the part about pressing her parents about telling Henry? Well, believe it or not, I really don't want to say many negative things about Holly Taylor because I have posted my opinion before and I'm quite certain that it seriously angers many people. Most people here seem to admire her very much and I have to question - is it the character they admire or the actor? I must admit that I could very well be wrong. Seems like, whenever I express a contrary opinion, it angers many people. I know there must be a way to express a contrary opinion without angering people. I just don't seem to be able to do that.

However, you said that, "Holly Taylor has been on fire as of late". Oh my! Oh my! Oh my! I had to summon up every little bit of strength to resist making a terrible joke about that statement. I just knew that if I had done that, I would have gotten burned at the stake. So, I will just keep my mouth shut.

Can you guess the terrible joke I was going to make? I will give you two hints. The first is the Internet acronym, "DIAF". The second is my previous post(s) where I said that I don't think Holly Taylor is a very good actor because her range is so tiny. She hardly ever displays more than a single emotion. I know most people here do not agree. But, please just ask yourself how often you have seen her show any other expression(s) on her face. She usually displays either a blank face (which doesn't count) or a bewildered face. That's it and that's all! She only ever seems to play one of those two notes. And she almost never plays any others.

Believe it or not, as an adult, I really do feel bad about making negative remarks about a young person? Holly? I'm sorry. I'm quite certain that you will soon display a wider range of emotions or else you will be given some scenes that demand a wider range  ---  and then, you can come back here and tell me to go "F" myself. I will truly deserve that.

I'm sorry but I just can't go along with calling her "mezmerizing".  I just can't see much acting ability. But that likely has a lot to do with her being thrust into such a tough role alongside such other great actors. Oh Shit! I'm sorry. I should just apologize and shut up.

Edited May 21, 2016 by AliShibaz

[hellmouse]

38 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Philip would very much struggle with it as well should he return, and Elizabeth, aside from the children being unhappy would probably initially be thrilled, but I think even Elizabeth would end up recognizing that something was really not good in Russia, she's an idealist, and frankly, those people fall the hardest when they begin to consider that everything they believed and did may have been wrong.  (In a "fruit of the tree" way.)  I think she would still see the problems the USA has and causes, but day to day life would chaff her if she were to return, and she has her children there, because their faces would remind her of what's wrong every day.

I've read that the biggest culture shock for people is not when you leave home for someplace new, instead, it's returning to your native land after having been gone a long time. All of a sudden you see things differently, and things that should be familiar are instead foreign. You can feel like a stranger in what you thought would feel like home. I expect both Elizabeth and Philip would experience that. 

[snarktini]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

Seems like, whenever I express a contrary opinion, it angers many people. I know there must be a way to express a contrary opinion without angering people. I just don't seem to be able to do that.

I'm certainly not angry. It's fine to state a contrary opinion. But if you find you're angering people frequently, you might want to consider your delivery. It's possible to state you find an actress unappealing and untalented without saying they are ugly and should DIAF. 

[wonderwoman]

On May 19, 2016 at 4:54 PM, Anela said:

I sometimes wonder if Stan suspects them, and that's why he keeps blabbing  - but if that were the case, he'd be spying on them, the way he spied on Martha. 

Okay, bear with me here because I may well have forgotten something. But, while we know Stan should suspect P&E, I'm having a hard time recalling anything that's happened that suggests he should know. 

[gwhh]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

What do you mean by "everything else?" There's other things in their marriage that are completely real too. A marriage is what ever the two people in it say it is.

Yeah, plus she'd have a lot more practice with native speakers. Anybody pretty much has the ability to learn a language.

Actually, I have a friend who noticed this same thing with Martha--she's a linguist and she always is a little annoyed at the English-speaker attitude about learning languages. Paige did the same thing in this ep where she was like, "We're just going to speak Russian?" as if that's a crazy expectation. In non-English speaking countries it's often just part of a standard education to be able to actually speak a foreign language to some degree. And of course in some countries it's not even about education, it's just needing to have those skills in everyday life.

 

I don't think anybody is attacking what her eyebrows actually look like. It's the way they're always pointed upwards at each other due to her expression. as eyebrows go they're perfectly normal and attractive!

 

I agree. It's actually an interesting choice. In the story about the real family of spies like this the kids allegedly weren't told, but the parents went out of their way to make them not ordinary Americans. That is, apart from the kids being born in Canada, they spoke French at home and traveled a lot in Europe. Elizabeth seemed to want at least that for the kids--poor woman's always trying to get everyone to go to Europe as a travel agent--but the kids actually don't seem to have been raised with a pov that goes beyond US boarders. There's been references I think to Paige studying French and Henry Spanish, but in just the average jr. high/high school way that rarely results in the person being close to fluent as an adult. Even all that money Paige gave to Pastor Tim back in S2 was supposed to be her saving up to go to Europe. (Pastor Tim's travel is of the missionary trip variety.)

The parents are really more worldly in so many ways. I keep going back to that little moment in this ep where Alice announces that the state department told her Ethiopia is Soviet-controlled and there are soldiers everywhere as if it's some secret she's discovered that P&E were trying to hide while Philip says, "Ethiopia is a dangerous country--everyone knows that." It's quite possible Alice didn't know that. She quite possibly thinks of it as just the country of poor starving people free of politics.

 

Plot hole:  How did Page get to the church BEFORE school?  And how was going to get to school from church?

 

Yes, everything about the P&E life is fake.  Travel agency is a front company.  Marriage not legal (a marriage is NOT legal if you do NOT use your real name on the marriage certificate).  They have a DEAD person SS number.  Etc.  The only real thing is there children are actually there children! 

Also Paige is probably worried that Russian will be as hard to learn as the Spanish they are TRYING to teach her in the local public school system.  The United States Public School System teaches students another language in the WORST possible way.  They try to teach you to speak it, read and write it at the SAME time.  Our brains have been hard wired to lean a foreign language by hearing and speaking it first and than learning to read and write it over a period of many years.  So if you teach her to speak it FIRST and than worry about to read and write it a long time after it.  It should be OK.  We knew this system works, because that how we ALL learned to speak, and write and read our native tongue. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by gwhh

[RedHawk]

Has Paige said anything about having a hard time learning Spanish? She may have and I've just forgotten it. I was only a few years older than her when I began to study Russian in my first year of college. It was a very unusual language to study at that time (1980) and was considered quite difficult. I didn't take Paige's attitude to mean she didn't think she could learn another language, just that to her, like to most Americans back then, Russian seemed a very "alien" language.

I think teens and especially adults might learn language differently once they're past that young child's plastic brain stage. Some people do learn best by immersion but that method doesn't work well for me and maybe it's not best for everyone. I prefer the "old-fashioned" way of learning through seeing, not just hearing but also writing and reading words and phrases. I've studied Spanish, French, Russian, and Latin and have a strong visual memory so feel like I need to learn to read and speak a language at the same time. I tried an immersion class a few years ago and found it frustrating when before I had loved learning a new language via the old method. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by RedHawk

[scartact]

6 hours ago, stagmania said:

Having recently spent a lot of time with my teenage brother, I can say that this is actually quite realistic. Oblivious is an understatement. 

Haha fair enough. I was going to say I was sort of an oblivious younger child (albeit a girl) when I was a teen and basically not the problem child, so I tended to not know what was going on until my parents or older sister would finally tell me. So I can forgive it a little more, though I still am slightly weary. I didn't want Henry to be another useless prestige drama brother as his thread title lovingly states, but at least he hasn't been Bobby Draper'd multiple times.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Has Paige said anything about having a hard time learning Spanish?

I think there was a throwaway line a few years ago about Paige doing French homework, maybe Elizabeth looking at it or something, but nothing about her being particularly bad at it. Recently we heard Henry was getting help with Spanish, I think.

But yes, I don't think Paige was referring to any particular trouble she'd had learning a language. She's never really learned one in such a way that she actually uses it and Russian probably does sound even crazier to her than French.

I've read that a lot of things people used to think about kids being better at learning languages is a myth, so there's nothing about her age that would make it hard for her to learn (there are some advantages to being younger in terms of pronunciation, I think) but I imagine she can't even picture herself beginning to tackle something that sounds so hard as speaking Russian. It is harder than Spanish or French for an English-speaker, even has a different alphabet.

Lots of people move to a country where they're technically immersed but never learn the language. But she might at least be forced to practice the language as a way of communicating.

6 minutes ago, scartact said:

I didn't want Henry to be another useless prestige drama brother as his thread title lovingly states, but at least he hasn't been Bobby Draper'd multiple times.

LOL. They could do a good nod to Bobby's best line on this show with Henry: "Are we Communists?"

[lidarose9]

I keep asking myself what I would have said or thought if I'd been in Paige's shoes. When I was 15, I was so self-centered and arrogant. I thought most adults lived in some stupid, meaningless version of the past and had no idea what was *really* going on. I thought their lives were utterly dull and boring. It was not possible for them to do anything different or interesting and certainly nothing illegal. 

I was only interested in my own social life. I was out with my friends as much as possible, and when I was home, I was holed up in my room listening to music fantasizing about my boyfriend. 

It would have been difficult to convince me that they really were actual, real spies. I would have imagined some kind of bizarro version of the Peace Corps in reverse. Even after I'd had to accept it was true, I would have fastened onto the idea that it was just not really that big of a deal *today* living in *this* country, in *this* reality. OK, they may have had some dealings with some shady characters in the past, but that doesn't mean anything *now*.... I would have nothing but scorn for any promises they'd made in the past. When I was 15, I really felt that anything beyond a year ago was "ancient history". Just NOT RELEVANT to us now, today! I would have insisted on this. I would have passionately argued with my poor deluded parents that they just didn't understand, the world was changing, everything was different now, it was stupid to hold onto something from the past that just has no bearing on *today*...

And they had no business signing me up to leave town. I wasn't going anywhere. I was busy strategically chasing certain boys. I had certain girlfriends I was feuding with. I had a life. I wasn't the spy. I would have been absolutely horrified at the idea of leaving, even to move 30 miles away, much less RUSSIA. I probably would have blabbed to my best friend or my new boyfriend, sworn them to secrecy, and then they would have told someone, and then word would get around school. Then I think I would have run away. 

[snarktini]

5 minutes ago, lidarose9 said:

It would have been difficult to convince me that they really were actual, real spies. I would have imagined some kind of bizarro version of the Peace Corps in reverse. Even after I'd had to accept it was true, I would have fastened onto the idea that it was just not really that big of a deal *today* living in *this* country, in *this* reality.

I come back to this all the time when people are shocked that Paige would blab, or not understand the seriousness. I literally would not have grokked we were talking the "murder" kind of spies (lots of spies / cops never pull a gun), that my parents could go to jail, that keeping this secret is literally life and death, or even that spies for Russia necessarily meant KGB. Would never have computed. It's just too out there. The stuff of movies. And I doubt I'd have kept that secret, either. Despite the fact that at 16 I was very mature and sober-minded... just naive, apparently ;) 

[gwhh]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 2:40 PM, Umbelina said:

I think the KGB might have intended this from the beginning.  We know Philip and Elizabeth did not.  When they had kids they were practically just out of training, and much more likely to simply obey orders automatically.  Elizabeth's biggest concern was probably how the kids might interfere with other duties.  Philip may have thought it would bring Elizabeth around to loving him.

The KGB, or rather 'Center' that probably consists of the most hard core communists of the bunch, who have probably never even traveled to the USA and still think the photos of all the cars on the roads are American propoganda, and who may or may not actually listen to their people on the ground there?  Could be deluded enough to think this would work easily.  In their world, jobs were chosen for you.  In their world, children obeyed parents and the party without question.  Now?  They may or may not know more facts, but they know how valuable those birth certificates are, and they are getting desperate with Reagan in charge and their tech falling behind.  It's worth it to them.

I was going to write the same thing on the same subjects.  How the Soviet Union leadership was old and paranoid at this point in time. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by gwhh

[Macbeth]

I forgot that Phillip was from Siberia.  That explains alot.  Given the deprivations in the Soviet Union in general.... I looked up the town he grew up in - it appears to be the only town in Siberia, I would think he would have an outsider status as a Soviet.  This is a scary place - a place where political prisoners were sent to die in labor camps.

I was probably a year older than Paige during this time period.  I really don't believe she wouldn't react to the name of Siberia.  I was a clueless teenager and I would know that Siberia meant very bad things.

[Umbelina]

You should google earth his town though, it's actually pretty beautiful, and seems to be more of a forest town than a mining town, now oil.  Tobolsk

It used to be the capital of Siberia long ago, it's not that far north, seems just 3 degrees further north than Moscow.   I don't think it was a Gulag town.  Actually Czar Nicolas II fled there with his family right before he was murdered.  I google earthed Elizabeth's town too, but can't remember the name, it didn't seem nearly as pretty IIRC, much more industrial looking/bleak. 

http://gomadnomad.com/2011/03/29/the-forgotten-capital-of-siberia-tobolsk/

Quote

Tobolsk is an average Russian town located in the middle of the western Siberian plain. It used to be the capital of the whole of Siberia until the 20th century when the Trans-Siberian railway was built just south of here, when Tolbolsk reverted to being a small provincial town. Nevertheless, Tobolsk remains an historic capital of Siberia and one of the most beautiful cities for those interested in Russian architecture of the 17th and 18th centuries. Architecture here has a particular style that you cannot find in the European part of Russia.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Umbelina

[Macbeth]

Thank you for the suggestion Umbelina.  I will do that.

[sistermagpie]

35 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I looked up the town he grew up in - it appears to be the only town in Siberia,

Oh, there's plenty of other towns in Siberia! But it is really beautiful from what I've seen--it's even got a gorgeous Kremlin, the only stone Kremlin in Siberia. It's probably been restored now since Philip lived there but it's white with lovely blue and gold starry domes. It looks like a fairy tale.

I read a blog once where a woman was traveling in Siberia and she spent a week there. One of the things that struck her the most was how kind the people were there. They were always offering hot meals or rides or even gloves when she lost hers. She said she figured since it was a place where leaving someone without help could easily kill them because it was really cold, they're just very helpful. She said it felt like a small town where everyone knew each other and were really nice. Oh and apparently it's associated with science too. Oh, and it's like the third "spiritual center" in Russia, which also seems interesting. It's very associated with religion, and I don't think that means just Christianity.

I think there may have been a prison there too--and for a lot of people it was the first stop before they were sent to a prison camp--Dostoevsky stopped there. But it's not like the whole place was a big prison. Did the Tsar actually flee there? I figured the family was captured and sent there so they were sort of under house arrest.

23 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I google earthed Elizabeth's town too, but can't remember the name, it didn't seem nearly as pretty IIRC, much more industrial looking/bleak. 

Smolensk - and probably even more bleak just after the war when so much fighting took place there. I always thought that was interest that Philip referred to the place still being "torn up" after the war when he couldn't mean torn up like that. I guess just people making stuff for the war? Or socially torn up?

Oh, another interesting thing this woman said about her trip a couple years ago was that there's a lot less drinking in Siberia.

Anyway, I've always thought they tried to subtly present Elizabeth as more urban, with aspirations to urban coolness at least, while Philip is pretty rural. The two of them aren't even technically from the same continent.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I can't imagine Tobolsk suffered much physical damage from either of the World Wars, or the Napoleonic Wars, it's too remote, but of course they would have been required to send soldiers.

It really is beautiful, and further south, just barely, than Stockholm.

I wonder if they skated on the Rivers in winter?  I can't imagine them starving as much as urban cities, with the vegetable gardens, the forests (hunting/gathering,) and the rivers for fishing. 

[jjj]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 0:18 AM, jjj said:

19 hours ago, wonderwoman said:

Okay, bear with me here because I may well have forgotten something. But, while we know Stan should suspect P&E, I'm having a hard time recalling anything that's happened that suggests he should know. 

I agree.  There was the incident in the pilot (mentioned earlier in this thread), when Stan was on high alert after having just returned from years embedded with white supremacists, and he was suspicious of the Jennings' sedan, which matched the description of the car involved in kidnapping the Russian diplomat/agent.  That is when he went into the Jennings' garage to look at the car.  (And Philip stood in the shadows ready to kill him.)  He was so, so, close to the truth.  But Sandra told him "you can't suspect everybody" when everybody is new, and he tried to re-orient himself.  But lately, I agree that he does not suspect Philip/Elizabeth as being the spies the FBI has sketches of.  And with Gaad gone, that is one less person who has actually seen Elizabeth as a be-wigged spy. 

I am so looking forward to the day that Stan learns the truth about the Jennings.  Then they can write more seasons of the show that present the past years from Stan's point of view, as he realizes all the times he was within smelling distance of the truth. 

[Clanstarling]

Yes, Tobolsk was nowhere near the fronts of either of those wars. However, their internal conflicts could have caused damage. Damage can remain a long time. Though nowhere near that timeline - the city I was born in was still devastated from WWII, a decade later. I don't know when it was finally reconstructed, but certainly it wasn't finished until years after that.

 

4 minutes ago, jjj said:

There was the incident in the pilot (mentioned earlier in this thread), when Stan was on high alert after having just returned from years embedded with white supremacists, and he was suspicious of the Jennings' sedan, which matched the description of the car involved in kidnapping the Russian diplomat/agent.  That is when he went into the Jennings' garage to look at the car.  (And Philip stood in the shadows ready to kill him.)

I recently re-watched the pilot and this scene reminded me why we were hooked on this show from the get-go. And why I've never thought Stan was a bad agent - he'd already followed his instinct and didn't come up with evidence, so he dismissed it as paranoia.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

I recently re-watched the pilot and this scene reminded me why we were hooked on this show from the get-go. And why I've never thought Stan was a bad agent - he'd already followed his instinct and didn't come up with evidence, so he dismissed it as paranoia.

It sort of reminds me how the showrunners had Philip do that whole "I have a feeling" thing in Glanders to poke fun at the Hollywood cliche that spies "sense things" because they're spies when in reality no, they *see* things and react to them. Stan's just the same. He doesn't have some special sense because he's a good FBI agent, he just notices things and puts them together because he's a good agent. Like he noticed the Jennings car in the pilot. There's really nothing he's seen over the years that gives him any reason to suspect them. Even when Elizabeth got into the fight in S3 when she broke her tooth and Stan saw her injured, what Stan saw was Elizabeth having hurt her shoulder from carrying groceries. Had she said she cracked a tooth he probably would have made the connection. (Even if he doesn't always--it was Martha that connected the Connors hotel to the meeting where Fred was.)

[SunnyBeBe]

Does Stan really believe that Travel Agents work out of the house all night as often as P & E have? And that they have no family?  And what friends?  Have they ever had any guests at their house?  Most people in a neighborhood know when people come and go at all hours.  Stan has had some projects that put him out of the house, but wouldn't his wife would have noticed that about P & E before she moved out?

[jjj]

14 minutes ago, clanstarling said:

... the city I was born in was still devastated from WWII, a decade later. I don't know when it was finally reconstructed, but certainly it wasn't finished until years after that.

I recently re-watched the pilot and this scene reminded me why we were hooked on this show from the get-go. And why I've never thought Stan was a bad agent - he'd already followed his instinct and didn't come up with evidence, so he dismissed it as paranoia.

I was in Munich in 1980, and it still had blocks that had not yet been rebuilt from WWII bombing.  I'm sure it is better now, but that was 35 years after the war.

Part of what is keeping Stan from making the connections, is that Philip/Elizabeth know how to hide pieces that would help Stan.  If Stan were not an FBI agent, would Elizabeth have been hiding her tooth damage from a regular neighbor?  And what she did not know is that indeed, the FBI had put an alert out to dentists and ER doctors about the type of injury she has sustained.  Telling Stan about the tooth injury would totally have put him on alert.  I think Stan is constantly filtering "normal" and "red flag". 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Does Stan really believe that Travel Agents work out of the house all night as often as P & E have? And that they have no family?  And what friends?  Have they ever had any guests at their house?  Most people in a neighborhood know when people come and go at all hours.  Stan has had some projects that put him out of the house, but wouldn't his wife would have noticed that about P & E before she moved out?

Stan doesn't know when they leave the house at night. They're very aware of not letting him see them coming and going at 4am--Philip mentioned this early on. He knows that Philip had been traveling a lot, which Philip and Elizabeth had a cover for. He probably doesn't ask them about their family--we don't know about his family either. It's not that unusual for people to not have extended family, whatever Paige claimed. As for friends, Stan has none and the only people he ever had at his house that we've seen is the guys from work. The Jennings have Stan himself over and now he's seeing Pastor Tim and Alice. They know the people on the block.

Stan's got good reason to see the Jennings as quite normal compared to himself. They came over to welcome him and Sandra into the neighborhood, Philip and Stan do normal friends things. Also it's probably good to remember that Philip especially is a master at deflecting attention from himself. Stan uses him as somebody to talk to, he hardly ever asks about Philip himself unless it's to compare the two of them. (Like asking if he'd ever had an affair because Stan was.)

6 minutes ago, jjj said:

If Stan were not an FBI agent, would Elizabeth have been hiding her tooth damage from a regular neighbor?

I'd say definitely. She only told him about her shoulder injury because he could see it.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh, there's plenty of other towns in Siberia! But it is really beautiful from what I've seen--it's even got a gorgeous Kremlin, the only stone Kremlin in Siberia. It's probably been restored now since Philip lived there but it's white with lovely blue and gold starry domes. It looks like a fairy tale.

I read a blog once where a woman was traveling in Siberia and she spent a week there. One of the things that struck her the most was how kind the people were there. They were always offering hot meals or rides or even gloves when she lost hers. She said she figured since it was a place where leaving someone without help could easily kill them because it was really cold, they're just very helpful. She said it felt like a small town where everyone knew each other and were really nice. Oh and apparently it's associated with science too. Oh, and it's like the third "spiritual center" in Russia, which also seems interesting. It's very associated with religion, and I don't think that means just Christianity.

I think there may have been a prison there too--and for a lot of people it was the first stop before they were sent to a prison camp--Dostoevsky stopped there. But it's not like the whole place was a big prison. Did the Tsar actually flee there? I figured the family was captured and sent there so they were sort of under house arrest.

Smolensk - and probably even more bleak just after the war when so much fighting took place there. I always thought that was interest that Philip referred to the place still being "torn up" after the war when he couldn't mean torn up like that. I guess just people making stuff for the war? Or socially torn up?

Oh, another interesting thing this woman said about her trip a couple years ago was that there's a lot less drinking in Siberia.

Anyway, I've always thought they tried to subtly present Elizabeth as more urban, with aspirations to urban coolness at least, while Philip is pretty rural. The two of them aren't even technically from the same continent.

It makes me think about the conversation he had with Kimmy, when she talked about gardening. Philip must have worked in his family's garden plot. And we know he made rakes! I wonder if he would like to have a garden or if he's glad not to do it.

That's one of the things I love about this show. The writers are gardeners too - they plant seeds that we don't even notice until they are blossoming in front of our eyes. I listened to a podcast recently where Joe Weisberg and Joe Fields said they always are ahead of schedule on their scripts (they had six scripts done before shooting S1 Ep 2, which is crazy!) and as a result they are able to go back and refine scripts based on what comes up in the next scripts.

It creates a sense that everything in this show means something. I can't think of any throwaway stories, or even major retcons (aside from the Amador flashbacks IMO, but those were probably needed since it was only season 1). 

[Umbelina]

Spies or not, I do believe many people have a gut feeling when something is off.  Spies are trained to notice every detail though, so they would have more information from which to base "hunches."  Remember Hans being trained to notice every single thing at once?  Stan and the Jennings have years of that training.

I've always thought that some of what people call ESP is simply some brains putting together other sensory information in a quicker or clearer way.  People might notice someone in a car that was "off" along with a window curtain suddenly closing, an odd smell in the air, a few words of an odd phone call near them,  and maybe even a stroller that seemed heavier than it would be with only a baby inside.  Spies might be trained to pay attention to those clues, but even your average person might get a feeling that something was off, those "gut feelings" or "ESP" that tells them to run, or change direction just before a bomb goes off or a shootout occurs. 

I just don't think it's necessarily supernatural, as much as heightened regular senses, or a brain compiling them fast and spitting them out.  I know I boarded a plane once and the pilot door was open.  One look at the co-pilot's face and I KNEW there had been a plane crash.  It took me a few minutes to try to see if I was sensing THIS plane would crash and to get off, or if it was something elsewhere.  I decided it was elsewhere, but pulled a flight attendant over privately, in the back of the plane (where smokers sat!)  I told him quite calmly that I knew there had been a crash, where was it?  He told me, without surprise, that it had been at our destination, San Francisco, and to please keep it to myself.  We would be delayed, that's all. 

His lack of surprise was what struck me, as if he didn't think it odd at all, later he asked me how I knew, and I told him I'd glimpsed the co-pilot's face (apparently right after he'd heard.)  Anyway, I think I got enough clues from his face to know something horrible and personally shaking had just happened, and logic filled in the rest, it had to be a downed plane, just logically from the way he was acting, not bad personal news, but something professional.

Oddly enough I had another of those "gut feelings" about a different flight.  As I was getting ready to go through the gate I glimpsed the plane and everything in me said "DO NOT get on that plane."  So I didn't.  I turned around and went back to the counter to book another flight.  I wasn't the only one either.  Two other people did, and we looked at each other, significant looks, one older man said "You felt it too?"

Anyway, no crash involved there, but after a long delay that plane was grounded.  The three of us that had bailed left much sooner than the others, who were frantically trying to find another flight.  Do I think that was magical ESP?  Nope.  I think I noticed other things and my brain just put them together somehow.  A gas truck backing away slowly, a pause of the flight crew on the stairs, a quick call to the check in desk, and the woman there turning away.  SOMETHING clued me in.

 

15 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Does Stan really believe that Travel Agents work out of the house all night as often as P & E have? And that they have no family?  And what friends?  Have they ever had any guests at their house?  Most people in a neighborhood know when people come and go at all hours.  Stan has had some projects that put him out of the house, but wouldn't his wife would have noticed that about P & E before she moved out?

They pretty much always have decent cover stories, and the one thing about Travel Agents is the do have clients in all time zones around the world, so a late night emergency might not seem that odd.  As others have said, Stan wouldn't notice every single thing his neighbors do, and he's often gone from his own home as well.

Now, with Gaad dead?  I think Stan will be noticing EVERYTHING.  His senses will be on high alert, and he's well trained, his wife isn't there to point out his paranoia, he's been away from his PTSD from the skin head embedding for quite a while.  I think he will pay attention to every slightly off thing in his life, everywhere, including at home.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Umbelina

[hellmouse]

12 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Does Stan really believe that Travel Agents work out of the house all night as often as P & E have? And that they have no family?  And what friends?  Have they ever had any guests at their house?  Most people in a neighborhood know when people come and go at all hours.  Stan has had some projects that put him out of the house, but wouldn't his wife would have noticed that about P & E before she moved out?

I think Stan is gone a lot at night too. As for no family or friends... I don't know. Stan doesn't seem to have family or friends either, so it might seem normal to him.

[jjj]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Stan doesn't know when they leave the house at night. They're very aware of not letting him see them coming and going at 4am--Philip mentioned this early on. He probably doesn't ask them about their family--we don't know about his family either. It's not that unusual for people to not have extended family, whatever Paige claimed. As for friends, Stan has none and the only people he ever had at his house that we've seen is the guys from work. The Jennings have Stan himself over and now he's seeing Pastor Tim and Alice. They know the people on the block.

Stan's got good reason to see the Jennings as quite normal compared to himself.

I'd say definitely. She only told him about her shoulder injury because he could see it.

Completely agree -- and Stan himself keeps crazy and all-night work hours, so is not exactly in the neighborhood routine -- or lack of routine.  Plus, he knew Elizabeth had been away tending to a sick aunt ("aunt") a year or two back, and didn't they say she relied on Elizabeth as one of the few family members left?  Stan is the one without visible family, as far as we have seen in the show.  Speaking of visible family, I was amused at Henry's thrity seconds on the show this week, but his constant "presence" via the tennis balls in the garage and the "shush!  don't let Henry hear us!" 

When I mentioned hiding the tooth injury, I meant she was being very careful not to let Stan see she had any tooth pain; she might have been less careful with a non-FBI agent. 

By the way, about rakes:  I doubt the Philip was making lawn rakes; there are many kinds of rakes for different purposes, like very strong rakes used to rake away stones and level earth when building roads, or clearing out rubble.

And one other thing about crazy hours -- people who depended on office tools had to go to offices to use them in the early 1980s -- all the files would be at the office, fax machines, early internet modems, etc.  We are so used to having more control on our hours and environment now because it is possible to work so well at home.  I had a neighbor who was a drama critic in the early 1980s who always had to drive from the theaters to the newspaper office to file stories, even though modems existed that could send text via phone lines.  She said it was too risky to use the modems, and so spent a lot of years heading to the office at 10:00 at night instead of going home to write the reviews.  Now, you can sit in your car and write a review and send it immediately!  (Now that I think of it, that reviewer and her husband moved to Moscow in the early 1990s.  I'm sure that does not mean anything.)  <joking!>

Edited May 22, 2016 by jjj

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Spies or not, I do believe many people have a gut feeling when something is off.  Spies are trained to notice every detail though, so they would have more information from which to base "hunches."  Remember Hans being trained to notice every single thing at once?  Stan and the Jennings have years of that training.

Right, but I think that's like Stan with Martha. His dream showed he'd seen something without noticing it. It's important for them all to be able to say what the problem is. Stan shouldn't just have a hunch there's something off about the Jennings, he should see something. Worth noting, for instance, that when he first met the Jennings he did say something was off about Philip, so he probably did pick up on something about him.

But he--and the Jennings--would also be trained to be able to identify where these things come from or find proof of the thing they feel. Otherwise Stan could just tell people he knows when somebody's lying or shady and people would just be expected to believe him (I've seen a lot of documentaries where police do this and it's really frustrating because the facts show that they're very often wrong). So when Stan has a feeling, he looks for evidence he can really use for proof.

Like with Martha when he went to her home and saw the copy of Shogun. That was a great example, imo, of Stan seeing something that registered to him as off and he filed it away.

3 minutes ago, jjj said:

Plus, he knew Elizabeth had been away tending to a sick aunt ("aunt") a year or two back, and didn't they say she relied on Elizabeth as one of the few family members left? 

Yup, very true. They've also been in the neighborhood for years and probably had friendly contact with everybody. If there was anything like a block party they'd be at it. Henry even had that big birthday party with lots of kids. Henry plays sports that Philip was shown driving him too, so he might be involved there too.

Also just 2 eps ago Philip said he wanted to start playing hockey again, which meant he played it before. Hockey's a team sport. that's the perfect place for Philip to have casual friends with which he probably goes for a beer with sometimes after the game. Elizabeth probably doesn't have anything like that, but her personality probably explains that to the neighbors. She probably comes across as stand-offish.

[Umbelina]

To build a case would require proof, I agree.

However, sometimes those hunches can save your life, and there isn't time to investigate, (*assuming you were a cop, criminal, or FBI) you simply have to act or react.  Even a civilian who gets an idea that they are not safe REACTS.  Proof can wait.

I do think Stan, after Gaad's death, is more likely to pick up on ANYTHING that's "off" or "odd" and that will include his neighbors.  Frankly, I hope I'm wrong, but it makes sense to me that next season might be the last for this show.  (my 'hunch') because really, the walls are closing in on all sides now.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Umbelina

[RedHawk]

Thanks to the posters who provided the extra info about Tobolsk and Smolensk! I love knowing more about those places and how Philip and Elizabeth might have been shaped by them. 

Quote

Anyway, I've always thought they tried to subtly present Elizabeth as more urban, with aspirations to urban coolness at least, while Philip is pretty rural. The two of them aren't even technically from the same continent.

I've picked up on that as well. Philip even wears cowboy boots like a "country" person would in the USA -- haha! (They were also very popular in the early '80s, Frye boots especially.)

Two things I don't think have been discussed from this episode: When we see Tatiana reporting to Arkady she says, "He responded two weeks late. I don't know if we should count on him anymore. The last time... ." Then they are interrupted by the news that Gaad is dead. Who might she be talking about? We know there are very few throwaway conversations on this show. I wondered if it was William. Could The Centre -- whose head in the U.S. is now Tatiana? -- somehow know that he knew about the Lassa virus and delayed reporting it? 

Also, when Elizabeth and Gabriel are talking about the Young Hee and Don operation and Gabriel tells her he can ask The Centre to try to find another way into Level 4, he says, "We don't know everything they know." By "they" he means The Centre. Interesting that "they" might know more info about the lab and what goes on there, who might be vulnerable to some form of blackmail or coercion, other possible ways to gain access to Level 4, than they would share with Gabriel and Elizabeth. 

I got a laugh when Gabriel said to Elizabeth, "Your feelings sometimes can matter." Reminded me of Stan standing at the Mail Robot and reading aloud the memo that "The FBI does not 'feel'."

Speaking of, what's happening with Mail Robot? Is he secretly happy that his attacker, Gaad, is dead? Does he feel that the kicking bastard got what he deserved? And will Mail Robot's tapes ever reveal anything of importance or will they just give Tatiana and Oleg a reason to hang out together and giggle over silly American FBI agents and their chitchat?

 

Edited May 22, 2016 by RedHawk

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

However, sometimes those hunches can save your life, and there isn't time to investigate, (*assuming you were a cop, criminal, or FBI) you simply have to act or react.  Even a civilian who gets an idea that they are not safe REACTS.  Proof can wait.

Right, but this isn't a case of Stan seeing someone coming at him and having to decide to shoot or not. Jumping at everything can also be dangerous, after all. The showrunners are on record as not writing these characters as reacting to "feelings" that things are wrong--or at least that when they do have feelings they're just as likely right or wrong.

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I do think Stan, after Gaad's death, is more likely to pick up on ANYTHING that's "off" or "odd" and that will include his neighbors.  Frankly, I hope I'm wrong, but it makes sense to me that next season might be the last for this show.  (my 'hunch') because really, the walls are closing in on all sides now.

True, but I doubt the show's just going to have Stan power up in the hunch department to catch them. That would be a cop-out. He'll have to see something we can track as a thing that makes him see them differently.Like regarding the Pastor Tim thing, Philip isn't presented as having better hunches or instincts about Paige than Elizabeth, he's presented as having specific things about the way he understands her that makes him get it while Elizabeth has specific blind spots that make her not get it. Nobody wants to see Stan live next to his neighbors for years and then suddenly twig that they're spies because he gets really mad at the KGB and it makes him super observant. It would make just as much sense for Stan to be more dependent on his friendship with the Jennings than ever.

[Umbelina]

I don't think it would be a cop out for Stan to completely slip into cop mode, more of the Stan he was when he was undercover than the "relax man, go to EST" guy we've seen.  It's completely logical to me that Gaad, the former head of the DC branch of the FBI being murdered, not to mention his friend, would put Stan on VERY high alert, and part of that is paying attention to hunches.  He discovered Martha's treachery from a "hunch" after all.  Something was off, something didn't feel right to him.  (Again, my explanation of so-called ESP above.) 

It's kind of a combat mode really, when you know, really know, you are under attack, every single thing in your world becomes important.  With Gaad's death, on top of all the others, and Martha?  It's combat mode now, and I don't think Stan will be able to turn off his spidery senses anymore.  It's not magic, it's paying attention. 

Quote

Two things I don't think have been discussed from this episode: When we see Tatiana reporting to Arkady she says, "He responded two weeks late. I don't know if we should count on him anymore. The last time... ." Then they are interrupted by the news that Gaad is dead. Who might she be talking about? We know there are very few throwaway conversations on this show. I wondered if it was William. Could The Centre -- whose head in the U.S. is now Tatania? -- somehow know that he knew about the Lassa virus and delayed reporting it? 

I missed that! 

Quote

Also, when Elizabeth and Gabriel are talking about the Young Hee and Don operation and Gabriel tells her he can ask The Centre to try to find another way into Level 4, he says, "We don't know everything they know." By "they" he means The Centre. Interesting that "they" might know more info about the lab and what goes on there, who might be vulnerable to some form of blackmail or coercion, other possible ways to gain access to Level 4, than they would share with Gabriel and Elizabeth. 

All spy organizations compartmentalize.  That way, if one is turned, everything is not exposed.  Of course Center would know more.  Of course most in Arkady's group don't know who the Jennings are, they don't even know what Tatiana does.  That's just normal spy caution.

[jjj]

I'm a little surprised that Philip/Elizabeth have not tried in a gentle way to get Paige to bring back information from the Stan household.  I have a feeling some of these bits of information will start to collide in a very problematic way if Stan's son is talking to anyone at Paige's church and mentions the cool things his father does, like deal with the vanished KGB secretary.  This is like a lot of live wires that are getting a little too close to one another, and all it takes is two wires to make a spark for Pastor Tim/Alice, or Stan, or Paige. 

Totally random:  I loved seeing the 1970s Rival Crockpot in this episode.  That model got me through college and grad school.  I could make lasagna in that thing.  Harvest Gold! 

Edited May 22, 2016 by jjj

[Umbelina]

Yeah, that's what I'm feeling too, all of the frayed or loose edges are approaching combustion, and all it will take is a match, deliberate or accidental.

[jjj]

41 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Like with Martha when he went to her home and saw the copy of Shogun. That was a great example, imo, of Stan seeing something that registered to him as off and he filed it away.

I did not catch that -- what registered as "off" regarding Shogun?  It was a popular television mini-series in the early 1980s, so it seemed like a good choice for leisure reading, not a signal.  But I might have missed a reaction. 

[RedHawk]

38 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

All spy organizations compartmentalize.  That way, if one is turned, everything is not exposed.  Of course Center would know more.  Of course most in Arkady's group don't know who the Jennings are, they don't even know what Tatiana does.  That's just normal spy caution.

I guess I'm thinking that it's a sign that The Centre may not be doing such a good job, because it seems they chose Don as the most likely person to get close to and blackmail, but as Philip said and Elizabeth discovered, "He's pretty clean." I think Gabriel would be wise to ask The Centre if there is another possible target, because this operation is hitting snags. He doesn't have to expose Elizabeth for having "feelings" for the couple. Being a good handler would mean that Gabriel can read Elizabeth's hesitation and know she might mess up in some way by letting emotion slip in at a crucial moment.

I'm just gonna admit this: I think Oleg is major sexy. The scenes with he and Tatiana did NOT turn me off. ;-) 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think it would be a cop out for Stan to completely slip into cop mode, more of the Stan he was when he was undercover than the "relax man, go to EST" guy we've seen.

Slip into cop mode, sure. I just don't think cop mode will look that different because even in cop mode he has things to go on.

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

He discovered Martha's treachery from a "hunch" after all.  Something was off, something didn't feel right to him. 

He had also seen her taking files without realizing he had, and he knew she was in a good place to plant the bug. When he went to her apartment the first time he reacted to Shogun. I think whatever thing sets Stan's senses tingling, we'll see it too and get it. So it won't seem like just a hunch. It'll seem like Stan picking up on something. We've seen him pick up on stuff with Philip plenty of times, for instance, there was just no reason he'd attach it to spy work really without it seeming like Stan knows he's on a TV show with a limited number of characters in his world.

1 hour ago, jjj said:

I'm a little surprised that Philip/Elizabeth have not tried in a gentle way to get Paige to bring back information from the Stan household. 

Philip is Stan's best friend. He brings back info from the Stan household. But he doesn't press for details because that would be dangerous. If Philip doesn't dare do it himself I doubt he'd want Paige to start fishing with Matthew. Though of course if Matthew does say something she'd probably know to repeat it. If I were her I'd certainly talk about the Martha story.

1 hour ago, jjj said:

I did not catch that -- what registered as "off" regarding Shogun?  It was a popular television mini-series in the early 1980s, so it seemed like a good choice for leisure reading, not a signal.  But I might have missed a reaction. 

I believe the implication was that it was a book a man would more likely be reading. Sexist, but also probably Stan making a good call knowing Martha. She might not have had other books in the house like it. So it might have been not the type of book he'd imagine her reading having spoken to her or even noticed what she reads at work. They made a point of him clocking it really obviously, so it seemed like that was the idea.

Another thing that struck me in this ep re: Philip's conversation with Paige. Lots of people blabbing to others in the ep, but not always saying things because the other person wanted to hear them. Jim told Kimmie she shouldn't have told him about what her dad told her. Paige wasn't fishing for spy info from Matthew, but she got it. Still, Matthew's relaying of the story made sense given what Paige did ask about, which was Stan's work.

What I really thought about, though, was how Matthew says Stan's been "chatty" about a lot of things lately, and he thinks it's because it's Stan's way of knowing he appreciates him being there. First, that's another nod to how growing up means becoming more like a spy even if you're not one. Matthew has sussed out Stan's motivations for suddenly telling him this stuff and seems to forgive him, but not completely buy it. That is, he's not upset that he thinks Stan is doing this, but sort of sees it as a clumsy attempt to make Matthew want to be there. He's not at the age where he's just like "My dad's got the coolest job and he totes trusts me with all this info!"

Back when Paige first learned the truth Elizabeth told her stories of her mother shushing the neighbors in their communal apartment. Paige responded by asking why she should believe anything she said. In that scene, Elizabeth seemed to be telling Paige these details because Elizabeth herself wanted to be known. She couldn't wait to talk about home and her mom, wanting Paige to know and accept her for what she was, even maybe admire her, and Paige wasn't having it.

So it seemed interesting that at the start of the ep, before it all goes to hell, we see what appears to be the first time Paige hesitantly asked about growing up in Russia. And Philip, who has never given her any info unless she specifically asked for it on this topic, answers very carefully, like he's trying to give her exactly what she wants. They can't completely connect on the questions and answers since their experiences are so different, but like even the way he gives her just enough context about where he grew up to explain his father as a logger instead of just saying he was a logger (a profession with which Paige would never have any connection) is trying to frame things the right way. When she asks if his mom's a good cook he apparently can't answer but does try to give her some truth with "She made a soup I liked."

2 hours ago, hellmouse said:

It makes me think about the conversation he had with Kimmy, when she talked about gardening. Philip must have worked in his family's garden plot. And we know he made rakes! I wonder if he would like to have a garden or if he's glad not to do it.

I wonder if it would be like liking Tobolsk. He wouldn't have thought of whether he liked it or not, because it just had to be done. It's quite possible he did like it but it didn't occur to him to want to plot a garden because he doesn't see gardening as a hobby and his Philip Jennings persona wouldn't create a garden to save money.

Edited May 22, 2016 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

Maybe he does raise a garden but because this show never takes place in summer we just don't see it! ;-)

I'm always laughing about the seasons on this show, that everything we see always seems to happen between September and April, that in early spring there were autumn leaves on the trees, and how we never see holidays. Right now it's supposed to be late November 1983 and not a whisper of Thanksgiving or Christmas. Although, there's a meal in the next episode so maybe we will finally see the Jennings family giving thanks for the abundance of American meat, produce, and toilet paper.

[Umbelina]

That's exactly what I am saying here sistermagpie.  It's not supernatural at all, it's a higher level of observation, a way of putting things you see, hear, taste, feel into patterns more quickly or more thoroughly than some other people.  I think Stan already has/does that, just like many people do, but he's had additional training in observation, and especially in details, reading people, memory. 

Maybe I'm simply not using the right words to convey what I'm trying to say.  Hunches, ESP, nagging feelings, sensing that something isn't quite right isn't at all abnormal in my opinion.  Some people simply pay more attention, naturally, by training, or perhaps heightened *but normal* senses, such as extremely good peripheral vision, or high frequency hearing.  The more times something happens to you that proved your "hunch" correct?  The more likely you are to trust any gut feelings in the future.

I think we all have some level of those things, for example, it's exceedingly rare for anyone to fail one simple experiment, and you can do it yourself with unknowing test cases.  Simply stare intensely at the back of some stranger's upper neck where it meets the skull, anywhere, elevator, mall, on the street, in a restaurant, it doesn't matter.  Almost every single time one of two things will happen, their hand will go to the back of their head/neck, and/or they will turn to look in your direction.

With Stan, he's learned to trust those gut feelings, they've worked for him.  They probably worked to keep him alive with the Skin Heads, and they definitely just worked to out a Russian agent at work.  So I think now, after Gaad's murder?  He will put those senses, without even necessarily knowing it, on high alert.  I think he will catch anything even slightly odd even more quickly now.  I think, with the Jennings living right across the street, that could possibly mean trouble for them.

Sometimes, in his line of work, there is time to dig deeper and take those hunches and find actual evidence, other times, you feel something is off and hit the ground, that "eyes on the back of your head" thing in his line of work might be a gun-sight.  Putting together a case?  Time to build a foundation, reason to look for more.  In emergencies?  Different reactions.

It reminds me in a way of someone who survived the bombing in Boston Marathon bombing.  One of the survivors was interviewed, and said he changed direction and walked away fast because something "bugged him" about the look on one of the bomber's faces who had walked past him.  It was just a feeling, but it was based in something real, he noticed, he made a choice to leave because something felt creepy to him.  That's an example of immediate threat, and people who trust those feelings choosing a flight response.

ETA

I have no idea why Shogun would mean anything.  I read all of those books and adored them. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by Umbelina

[RedHawk]

I agree that we were supposed to think Stan would think Martha an unlikely person to read "Shogun". Remember, it's 1983 and he's somewhat sexist about traditional men and women's interests... So to him it indicated there might be a man in her life, hanging out and reading, so pretty comfortable at her place, etc. He's trained to put clues like that together.

I liked Paige's reaction to Matthew's news about the FBI secretary who turned out to be a spy. At first she thought it was Stan's secretary and she was bugging out. Then Matthew explained it was only an office secretary. (He doesn't know yet the bigger news: That the secretary's former boss is now dead.) All this at a time when Paige is asking herself if her parents have had Pastor Tim disappeared. It must seem like suddenly spies are all around her! She's already had an internal freakout when she realized her spy-dad's best friend is an FBI agent. Sooner or later she might put some things together...

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, jjj said:

I'm a little surprised that Philip/Elizabeth have not tried in a gentle way to get Paige to bring back information from the Stan household.  I have a feeling some of these bits of information will start to collide in a very problematic way if Stan's son is talking to anyone at Paige's church and mentions the cool things his father does, like deal with the vanished KGB secretary.  This is like a lot of live wires that are getting a little too close to one another, and all it takes is two wires to make a spark for Pastor Tim/Alice, or Stan, or Paige. 

Totally random:  I loved seeing the 1970s Rival Crockpot in this episode.  That model got me through college and grad school.  I could make lasagna in that thing.  Harvest Gold! 

My reaction was, boy dinner's going to be really late if they're just putting it in the crock pot now!

[Umbelina]

Yeah, my thought was "Wow, Elizabeth is really taking advantage of her 'vacation' if she has time to make tomorrow's dinner early."