S04.E10: Munchkins

[Alaskacie]

I wonder that Elizabeth said "Oh, my god" in response to the missing pastor news and then said "thank God" in response to news that he was ok.     I know she doesn't like the church, and assumed that included lack of belief in God as well.   

And while those expressions are used commonly by many (I guess one doesn't actually have to believe in God to use the expression), it seems she has been militant enough in her beliefs to not use the G word. The plot lines in the show are contrived, but the writers are not sloppy in use of language.  

My thought that his is part of her having become more Americanized than she even knows seems flimsy, but I feel that it must mean something  

On on another topic, I enjoyed posters who talked about Stan's long think after hearing about Gaad.   It seems a stretch that he would link to Philip, but I agree the show meant us to notice it and I look forward to see what, if anything, he puts together.   Maybe he was just counting.   Since that four people from that office have died/been killed or disappeared. (Amador, Gene, Martha and now Gaad)

[Umbelina]

I think the KGB might have intended this from the beginning.  We know Philip and Elizabeth did not.  When they had kids they were practically just out of training, and much more likely to simply obey orders automatically.  Elizabeth's biggest concern was probably how the kids might interfere with other duties.  Philip may have thought it would bring Elizabeth around to loving him.

The KGB, or rather 'Center' that probably consists of the most hard core communists of the bunch, who have probably never even traveled to the USA and still think the photos of all the cars on the roads are American propoganda, and who may or may not actually listen to their people on the ground there?  Could be deluded enough to think this would work easily.  In their world, jobs were chosen for you.  In their world, children obeyed parents and the party without question.  Now?  They may or may not know more facts, but they know how valuable those birth certificates are, and they are getting desperate with Reagan in charge and their tech falling behind.  It's worth it to them.

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

Did they think that they could raise them as Americans and then suddenly on their 18th birthdays turn them into Russian spies? Did anybody ever give this any thought?

I think Philip and Elizabeth made it clear that what they thought was that they would raise them as Americans and then they'd go off and live their American lives. The idea to turn them into Russian spies was shocking news to them a year ago.

Otherwise I agree with Umbelina that this decision is being made by people who just want what they want and aren't on the ground so don't understand the reality that is someone like Paige Jennings.

 

20 minutes ago, Alaskacie said:

And while those expressions are used commonly by many (I guess one doesn't actually have to believe in God to use the expression), it seems she has been militant enough in her beliefs to not use the G word. The plot lines in the show are contrived, but the writers are not sloppy in use of language.  

I think it would just be unrealistic for her to not use both those phrases. They're just too common for her to not use them and don't really carry any religious connotation unless for some reason there is a specific context (like here). In fact, most of the people I've run across who don't use those terms are very religious and think they shouldn't take the Lord's name in name. She probably started using the expression a lot even before she came to the US. She'd have to to sound American. 

[lidarose9]

20 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I don't like the actress either.  I know that I will be very much in the minority, but I find her quite unattractive. I'd use a more descriptive and more accurate term but I've seen some other people do that on another forum and they were roundly roasted, flamed, screamed at, etc.

However, my biggest complaint about her has nothing to do with her looks. After watching this episode, I read several people applaud her for her wonderful acting skill. Again, I have to disagree. I don't think it's valid to call her a skilled actress because it seems to me she has only ever displayed two different moods. I don't know exactly how to describe this. But I think it's referred to as "range". It seems to me she just has no range. 

I totally agree. I realized watching the episode that I have absolutely no idea what Paige is feeling at any given time. I keep trying to figure out: does she fear her parents now? Does she despise them? Does she sympathize with them? Would she turn them in? If the writers are counting on the actress to communicate some of this to us without lines, it's not working. She has zero expressive range, one facial expression. Her meltdown to her parents was the first time we've seen any genuine emotion from her. Even the scenes driving with her father, she is supposed to be happy but has that same look on her face. The show has given her a lot of heavy weight to carry this season, and I just don't think she's up to it. 

I have wondered about Philip and Elizabeth's sincere reassurances to Paige that they don't do any nasty bad things, that they would never murder someone. They are obviously very good at lying. But I was thinking too, especially with Elizabeth, she sees the world as two categories of people: 1. enemies of the Soviet state, and 2. everyone else. She has always had 100% trust that their orders are absolutely vital, matters of life and death. Her own feelings don't enter into it. So when she assures Paige they don't hurt people, she means we don't hurt *innocent* people. 

But YoungHee is someone who Elizabeth actually has grown to like and respect as she's become close to her. She can no longer objectify her. She is a real human being, not a just a target.

Plus the stakes have changed: these bioweapons, the TV movie about a nuclear holocaust... they were realizing this isn't just a matter of one country's government versus another -- it's about the future of the human race. I think the implication is that little by little, as time has gone by, both Philip and Elizabeth have more and more trouble staying in the mindset necessary to be a good agent. 

[Alaskacie]

Quote

In fact, most of the people I've run across who don't use those terms are very religious and think they shouldn't take the Lord's name in name. She probably started using the expression a lot even before she came to the US. She'd have to to sound American. 

Yes, I would think both the super-religious and also the super-nots would avoid the expressions.   Anyhow, you're probably right, just American vernacular, especially the OMG.  

[madam magpie]

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think the KGB might have intended this from the beginning.  We know Philip and Elizabeth did not.  When they had kids they were practically just out of training, and much more likely to simply obey orders automatically.  Elizabeth's biggest concern was probably how the kids might interfere with other duties.  Philip may have thought it would bring Elizabeth around to loving him.

Interestingly, when Paige and Elizabeth are talking in the garage after they tell Paige, there's an exchange that ends with Elizabeth holding back tears and saying something like, "we wanted both of you more than you could possibly know." Was that her playing Paige or was she telling the truth? I've always believed the latter and hoped to get more background, especially since we know Elizabeth also freaked out before Paige was born and went to Gregory. My read is it's more evidence that Elizabeth has tried very hard to suppress who she is and how she feels, but she can't succeed all the time or forever. And the more cracks open up in her resolve, the closer she gets to the ledge.

She also said something to Philip this week like, "I thought I could live like this." It was dropped, he didn't push her to elaborate, I don't think, but it's still there.

Edited May 20, 2016 by madam magpie

[snarktini]

I'm an atheist who uses god phrases all the time -- they're just expressions. In this case, my interpretation is it was a deliberate linguistic choice by Elizabeth. She was invoking heartfelt relief and appealing to Paige's faith, particularly relevant since the situation involved her pastor. It is in their best interests to appear less like cold, godless commie spies and more like caring, mission-driven idealists so Paige will not turn on them.

Edited May 20, 2016 by snarktini

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Was that her playing Paige or was she telling the truth? I've always believed the latter and hoped to get more background, especially since we know Elizabeth also freaked out before Paige was born and went to Gregory.

I thought she was obviously lying because we saw her say she didn't want children, period. She was putting it off. And then we saw her decide to have them, and it was pretty much about her mission. When she got pregnant with Henry she didn't tell Philip right away because even then she was considering abortion. I believe her when she says she never wanted kids. In fact, I think that's why she even felt the need to say that. She wouldn't want Paige to know how she didn't want to have kids.

But I think she's also telling the truth in that she loves her kids and so they're wanted. She has a very different feeling about Paige her daughter than she had about being a mother.

[Umbelina]

I hardly think Elizabeth is the only mother in the world who lies to her children about whether or not they were wanted.  That's not just a spy thing.  Ha.

[gunderda]

I would think having children would be welcoming to them.  Because it gives them a reason to be "normal" in some aspect of their lives.  

If they didn't have children they would be spies 24/7 and I think it would be even more overwhelming.  However I do think they were told "You will get married and you will have kids" so that they would portray an average american family.

[madam magpie]

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought she was obviously lying because we saw her say she didn't want children, period. She was putting it off. And then we saw her decide to have them, and it was pretty much about her mission. When she got pregnant with Henry she didn't tell Philip right away because even then she was considering abortion. I believe her when she says she never wanted kids. In fact, I think that's why she even felt the need to say that. She wouldn't want Paige to know how she didn't want to have kids.

But I think she's also telling the truth in that she loves her kids and so they're wanted. She has a very different feeling about Paige her daughter than she had about being a mother.

I don't see the difference. It seems to me that for a lot of women, it's a mixed bag. Just because Elizabeth didn't want children in the theoretical sense or that she ran scared or even that she considered abortion doesn't mean her children weren't wanted more than they know. I think both sides of that coin can exist with equal power in the same woman. 

I do think it's interesting that she created the seemingly perfect 19870s/80s American suburban family and then stopped, so it definitely looks like she was creating a cover. She doesn't strike me as someone who wants a gaggle of children or who defines her worth and life by her children. But even so, I still don't think she was lying.

I also think that her realization of how much she wanted them may have solidified when she thought they were threatened in season two and that her insistence on Paige being brought into the fold had a lot to do with wanting to do it herself, after seeing how badly it went when Jared was recruited against his parents' will. She may have thought she could do it in a way that didn't threaten Paige. And now she begins to see she was wrong.

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Just because Elizabeth didn't want children in the theoretical sense or that she ran scared or even that she considered abortion doesn't mean her children weren't wanted more than they know. I think both sides of that coin can exist with equal power in the same woman. 

I'm just trying to avoid the idea that she only *thought* she didn't want to have children but she was wrong. Because of that stereotype women sometimes have to deal with. I absolutely believe that Elizabeth didn't want children, that she had children only because she was ordered to do so, that she never would have had them if she had the freedom to choose. When she says that to Paige in that scene I thought she was telling the truth in that she was saying that if she had it to do over again she would have children again. She didn't regret having children. But there's also been *a lot* of focus on the fact that she did not choose to have them for herself.

But I also thought that her bringing it up at all when Paige hadn't asked was her worrying how Paige would feel if she knew that Elizabeth only had her because she was ordered to, so she said something that made it sound like she had children because she wanted to have children.

So there's two ways to read "you were wanted." One is that Mom and Dad wanted to have children. The other is that they don't regret having children and consider the children a good thing in their lives. I think Elizabeth was truthfully saying the latter, but also communicating the former to Paige. 

I feel like we're basically agreeing on what we mean, though. She didn't want to have kids, but her kids are wanted. It can be both. You don't relate to imaginary children the way you do to actual children, and the one doesn't taint or undermine the other.

21 minutes ago, gunderda said:

 

I would think having children would be welcoming to them.  Because it gives them a reason to be "normal" in some aspect of their lives.  

If they didn't have children they would be spies 24/7 and I think it would be even more overwhelming.  However I do think they were told "You will get married and you will have kids" so that they would portray an average american fami

 

I don't think they needed kids to not be spies 24/7. They'd just be normal the way childless people are. Philip's being just as normal when he's playing hockey with adults as he is when he's playing hockey with Henry.

Edited May 20, 2016 by sistermagpie

[gunderda]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think they needed kids to not be spies 24/7. They'd just be normal the way childless people are. Philip's being just as normal when he's playing hockey with adults as he is when he's playing hockey with Henry.

I still think it gives them a pretty darn good reason to not do it 24/7.  I think they would be used by the Center much more than they are now.  

Speaking as someone who doesn't have kids, my life is 10 times more flexible than someone that has kids.  And it's not uncommon for childless employees to be taken advantage of in the workplace.  (I'm not, thank god).

Not to mention it's great to be able to use the kids as excuses ;) 

[madam magpie]

18 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I'm just trying to avoid the idea that she only *thought* she didn't want to have children but she was wrong. Because of that stereotype women sometimes have to deal with. I absolutely believe that Elizabeth didn't want children, that she had children only because she was ordered to do so, that she never would have had them if she had the freedom to choose. When she says that to Paige in that scene I thought she was telling the truth in that she was saying that if she had it to do over again she would have children again. She didn't regret having children. But there's also been *a lot* of focus on the fact that she did not choose to have them for herself.

But I also thought that her bringing it up at all when Paige hadn't asked was her worrying how Paige would feel if she knew that Elizabeth only had her because she was ordered to, so she said something that made it sound like she had children because she wanted to have children.

So there's two ways to read "you were wanted." One is that Mom and Dad wanted to have children. The other is that they don't regret having children and consider the children a good thing in their lives. I think Elizabeth was truthfully saying the latter, but also communicating the former to Paige. 

I don't think they needed kids to not be spies 24/7. They'd just be normal the way childless people are. Philip's being just as normal when he's playing hockey with adults as he is when he's playing hockey with Henry.

Childless was a lot less normal back then than it is now. Even today, it begs lots of questions. Children assured that they blend in.

I have a very good friend who never wanted children, was indifferent to others' kids, etc. Then she had a baby that she didn't plan, and she now says there's nothing she ever wanted more in her life. It shocked her. I don't think that when she tells her daughter how wanted she is, it's anything resembling lying. I also don't think it's a stereotype. Childbearing is hugely complex for lots of people. Just because society reduces women to child lovers and haters doesn't mean that they actually fall into only those two groups.

I agree that Elizabeth isn't someone who particularly wanted children. She probably didn't grow up dreaming of family. That's totally a theoretical approach. But I do think Elizabeth is someone who desperately wants the two children she has. I don't think she's lying or spinning or misleading to say so. It looks to me like the most truthful assessment of how she actually feels. And given the way things looked in that moment, I think she wanted Paige to know that. I suspect she'd never actually said anything like that to her kids before.

Edited May 20, 2016 by madam magpie

[jjj]

15 hours ago, bredcrumbs said:

On another topic, as if this show doesn't have enough going on ... in our gay household, we smell a gay storyline brewing with Matthew Beeman. First, he expresses a relative (compared to Henry) lack of pubertine interest in Brooke Shields; now, he doesn't seem unhappy to be introduced to a male member of Paige's church's youth choir. (Inviting Paige into the house in the first place? Simple boredom. Or maybe he wants a gal pal.), that is spot-on closeted-young-man behavior.

He was three weeks from retirement! Just in the other direction.

Actually, Gaad was eight-plus months into retirement at this point.

No gay storyline brewing with Matthew -- he is more interested in Paige than he has been in the past, but she has finally reached age 16, a significant age difference from 14 when you are in your teens.  That was flirty behavior from Matthew in the house with Paige. 

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I have a very good friend who never wanted children, was indifferent to others' kids, etc. Then she had a baby that she didn't plan, and she now says there's nothing she ever wanted more in her life. It shocked her.

This is exactly what I *don't* see happening with Elizabeth. I don't see anything at all that implies that becoming a mother was some sort of revelation that shocked her with how much she wanted it. I think she absolutely wants Paige and Henry and has complicated feelings especially about Paige that don't all have to do with motherhood, but the phrase "there's nothing she ever wanted more in her life [than children]" doesn't fit Elizabeth at all imo. In the theoretical sense, imo, she still doesn't want children or want to be a mother. She wants Paige and Henry. 

Quote

 

Childless was a lot less normal back then than it is now. Even today, it begs lots of questions. Children assured that they blend in.

 

 

 

 

In that context, though, they were talking about *being* normal rather than just looking normal. Like when they were being parents they weren't thinking about spying--that's the thing that doesn't require children. (Though as gunderda pointed out it does give them a reason to need time off so that's true!) 

Edited May 20, 2016 by sistermagpie

[madam magpie]

21 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This is exactly what I *don't* see happening with Elizabeth. I don't see anything at all that implies that becoming a mother was some sort of revelation that shocked her with how much she wanted it. I think she absolutely wants Paige and Henry and has complicated feelings especially about Paige that don't all have to do with motherhood, but the phrase "there's nothing she ever wanted more in her life [than children]" doesn't fit Elizabeth at all imo. 

Oh, I think it does shock her. I think it shocked her when she fell for Philip, her kids, and Young Hee. I think it shocked her when Jared killed his whole family in a circumstance that was so similar to her own. I think it shocks her how much she doesn't want to screw over Don and his family. I think it shocked her that she felt such jealousy about Martha. And lots of other things. I think we've been seeing her have emotional revelation after revelation, and little by little who she is and what she values changes as a result. That doesn't mean she's suddenly going to want to bake cookies and knock out babies, but I bet that if you asked 25-year-old Elizabeth if she thought she'd fall deeply in love with her KGB partner and their children, she wouldn't have believed it.

When Paige is trying to get the truth out of them, she says, "Do you guys love me?" Elizabeth takes that like a gut punch and responds with, "Of course we love you." I think Paige was genuinely asking, not being bratty, because she genuinely wasn't sure. I think that shocked Elizabeth too.

Also, Elizabeth said the children were wanted more than Paige knew, not that she'd never wanted anything more. The result is different for different women, but I think the realization (whatever it is) that you may be the opposite of what you thought you were is often shocking. I also think it's pretty common and another way this show makes relatable a woman who exists in extraordinary circumstances.

Edited May 20, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Oh, I think it does shock her. I think it shocked her when she fell for Philip, her kids, and Young Hee.

That's not quite what I meant. I agree she's surprised at all these things. But to me, saying she was shocked by how much she loved Paige and Henry and Philip is very different than saying she was shocked to realize she wanted to have children and be a mother and a wife. The latter is wanting the theoretical thing, if not with Paige, Henry and Philip than with somebody else. The difference between "I never wanted to have kids but wow, I really love my kids" vs. "I never wanted to have kids but now I realize I was meant to be a mother."

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

That's not quite what I meant. I agree she's surprised at all these things. But to me, saying she was shocked by how much she loved Paige and Henry and Philip is very different than saying she was shocked to realize she wanted to have children and be a mother and a wife. The latter is wanting the theoretical thing, if not with Paige, Henry and Philip than with somebody else. The difference between "I never wanted to have kids but wow, I really love my kids" vs. "I never wanted to have kids but now I realize I was meant to be a mother."

She never said she felt that way, and I don't believe she does either. I do think she realized she wanted to be a wife to Philip and a mother to Paige and Henry, and that she does want the kids more than they know. (I expect she was fairly harsh when they were young. Didn't she toss Paige into a pool?) I don't think she's lying or manipulating when she tells Paige that. I think that realization is evolving as a huge, shocking truth for her. What it means is that communism and the cause are no longer what she values above all else.

Edited May 20, 2016 by madam magpie

[Dev F]

For one brief moment in this episode, I thought I might have a handle on Elizabeth's plan for the whole Don/Young Hee situation. When she gets Young Hee's message about how something's really wrong with Don, I wondered if Young Hee was actually the target all along, and the idea was to put her in a situation where Patty could "help" her figure out what's going on with her husband. Do you think he's trying to hide something from you? Maybe try to find out if he has any secret hiding places where he might be keeping evidence of what's bothering him. Is it possible that something's going on at work?

It's sort of elaborate, but it would make sense of everything Elizabeth's being doing in a way that a straight sexual blackmail attempt wouldn't.  Of course, the previews suggest that this isn't where they're going with it, so who knows. . . .

Edited May 21, 2016 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I think that realization is evolving as a huge, shocking truth for her. What it means is that communism and the cause are no longer what she values above all else.

Yes, I think we're saying the same thing about how Elizabeth's feelings have evolved but for some reason the language we're both using makes us think the other is missing something. (I wasn't sure what you were referring to by "saying she felt that way" but I don't really see anything I disagree with in your interpretation.) We do, I think, disagree on whether Elizabeth consciously feels like she's lying at all to Paige or if she's lying to herself when she says she was wanted, but there's no objective way to tell.

 

48 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Do you think he's trying to hide something from you? Maybe try to find out if he has any secret hiding places where he might be keeping evidence of what's bothering him. Is it possible that something's going on at work?

I think that was probably what she was trying to do when she babysat, look for any hiding places Don might have that contained blackmail material or a handy bit of codes on a pad or something!

It really is pretty amazing just how much this type of thing is coming up for Elizabeth here. In an ep where she's suffering because of her decision to put Paige's well-being above the safety of the mission (I think her dream about Paige and Timoshev really puts into perspective how she might feel about this underneath) she also wants to do the same for Young Hee, putting her above getting the sample. Young Hee is somebody she really enjoys, but what's probably also making a big difference is the thought of how she's hurting that whole family. Which totally reflects back, imo, on the whole Martha situation and how she thought Philip should have felt about it.

In Travel Agents Elizabeth reacted to Philip's distress over Martha by trying to be stone cold about killing Lisa. (Not that she killed her because of that, but I do think she had to be thinking of it.) Here, surrounded by a genuine crisis brought on in part by her decision to spare someone pain, she still wants to spare someone pain.

Edited May 21, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Dowel Jones]

Quote

Yeah, the real issue here is the second she asks for actual codes she's pretty much blowing her cover as some ordinary Mary Kay lady

Or maybe she just wants to hook up some Level 4 people into her Mary Kay marketing scam.  More seriously, if they weren't in such a hurry for the virus, the more likely path would be to entice Don to do some minor, but out of policy, task, and then use that as a springboard for increasing acts of espionage, each one banking on his fear of exposure to the previous one.  The "affair" would not be paramount to giving up a major secret, but maybe just copying a few papers here and there, and so forth.   A news item about Riker's Island in NYC is that 2 CO's were arrested at a prison for smuggling drugs and weapons to the prisoners.  I'll lay even odds that they didn't start out to do this, but were incrementally pressured to do so by one of their "friendly" inmates.  

On 5/19/2016 at 4:49 PM, Chaos Theory said:

It was mentioned awhile back that Stan has thrown a lot of Travel Agent work Philip's way.

I cannot begin to fathom the gut wrenching feeling that Stan will feel when he realizes that he has been, however inadvertently, giving travel information on FBI agents directly to the KGB. Gaad's, especially, if that is the case.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Dowel Jones
right crime, wrong state.

[madam magpie]

Sistermagpie: Wait...what did I miss? What dream about Paige and Timoshev? (That's the rapist, right??)

As for the other, yes, I do think we agree about what's happening to Elizabeth. The point I was trying to make was that she wasn't lying to Paige BECAUSE of how she's changing. She was being at her most truthful in that conversation. Or that's my read anyway.

P.S. All, please forgive me if I'm causing confusion, but it's so hard for me to quote parts of posts on this new site! I screw it up constantly...

Edited May 21, 2016 by madam magpie

[La Tortuga]

I would find it hilarious and yet at the same time believable if the show reveals that Henry already knows his parents are spies. Philip, Elizabeth, and Paige still sort of glance around to see if Henry is around before talking about their work or the Pastor Tim situation, but these glances are becoming increasingly half-assed. Between that, the previous several years of P&E's ridiculous work schedule (which sounds very much like Stan's work schedule), and Alice shouting her head off about sending a tape to the Justice department, Henry could have figured out a lot by now. He's also secretive, nosy, sneaky, and good at worming his way into social interactions with reluctant but ultimately accommodating partners--all the attributes he'd need to be a spy.

Besides, I remember that in the 80s even the younger kids knew a lot more about what was going on than our parents realized. I would love it if Henry knew his parents were spies and didn't freak out about it like his sister.

[madam magpie]

1 minute ago, La Tortuga said:

I would find it hilarious and yet at the same time believable if the show reveals that Henry already knows his parents are spies. Philip, Elizabeth, and Paige still sort of glance around to see if Henry is around before talking about their work or the Pastor Tim situation, but these glances are becoming increasingly half-assed. Between that, the previous several years of P&E's ridiculous work schedule (which sounds very much like Stan's work schedule), and Alice shouting her head off about sending a tape to the Justice department, Henry could have figured out a lot by now. He's also secretive, nosy, sneaky, and good at worming his way into social interactions with reluctant but ultimately accommodating partners--all the attributes he'd need to be a spy.

Besides, I remember that in the 80s even the younger kids knew a lot more about what was going on than our parents realized. I would love it if Henry knew his parents were spies and didn't freak out about it like his sister.

Ha! I also feel like it would be totally believable for Henry to be told about the spying in a very serious conversation, which ends with him shrugging and saying, "Cool. What's for dinner?" I bet he wouldn't blab, either.

[La Tortuga]

I actually started giggling when Elizabeth said, "And after we bent over backwards" with Tim and Alice. Like, Oh my god, do you have any idea how hard it was not to murder those holy rollers? I've been wanting to stab Tim with a pitchfork since the day we met. If I'd known all those hoops I jumped through just to avoid killing him would culminate in this moment, I'd have just pulled the kids out of school and taken them straight to Epcot in the middle of the week so the Center could arrange a freak coffeemaker accident at Casa Groovyhair. This not-killing-people shit is for the birds!

[madam magpie]

2 minutes ago, La Tortuga said:

I actually started giggling when Elizabeth said, "And after we bent over backwards" with Tim and Alice. Like, Oh my god, do you have any idea how hard it was not to murder those holy rollers? I've been wanting to stab Tim with a pitchfork since the day we met. If I'd known all those hoops I jumped through just to avoid killing him would culminate in this moment, I'd have just pulled the kids out of school and taken them straight to Epcot in the middle of the week so the Center could arrange a freak coffeemaker accident at Casa Groovyhair. This not-killing-people shit is for the birds!

Amen!

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Sistermagpie: Wait...what did I miss? What dream about Paige and Timoshev? (That's the rapist, right??)

I mean the one she had earlier this season where she dreamed of Paige walking into the cabin and finding Pastor Tim dead from poison gas I guess. Paige screams, then Pastor Tim turns into Timoshev and attacks her. I thought that was really showing that Elizabeth was realizing that what she was going to do (kill Pastor Tim) would be hurting her in a way that reminded her of being attacked by Timoshev.

41 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

P.S. All, please forgive me if I'm causing confusion, but it's so hard for me to quote parts of posts on this new site! I screw it up constantly...

LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one having this problem!

 

1 minute ago, La Tortuga said:

I actually started giggling when Elizabeth said, "And after we bent over backwards" with Tim and Alice. Like, Oh my god, do you have any idea how hard it was not to murder those holy rollers? I've been wanting to stab Tim with a pitchfork since the day we met. If I'd known all those hoops I jumped through just to avoid killing him would culminate in this moment, I'd have just pulled the kids out of school and taken them straight to Epcot in the middle of the week so the Center could arrange a freak coffeemaker accident at Casa Groovyhair. This not-killing-people shit is for the birds!

I love how much I was agreeing with her. If she does wind up killing them I'd love for her to tell them this too. No good deed!

[snarktini]

46 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

P.S. All, please forgive me if I'm causing confusion, but it's so hard for me to quote parts of posts on this new site! I screw it up constantly...

I have a handle on quoting one post, or part of one post. But there's a whole lot I'm not responding to because anything more complicated than that has me stumped!

[madam magpie]

I totally missed that Groovyhair turned into Timochev! I'll have to watch that again.

I fear it says something terrible about me that I want Elizabeth to take out the Groovyhairs. The baby can live, though.

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I totally missed that Groovyhair turned into Timochev! I'll have to watch that again.

It's easy to miss--the show has real faith in people that they just had that happen and hoped people remembered this guy from the pilot.

I'm totally with you on wanting Elizabeth to take out the Groovyhairs. If only to see a somber funeral with headstones that actually say "Tim and Alice Groovyhair." Or I'd also be okay with "Pastor and Alice Tim."

Edited May 21, 2016 by sistermagpie

[gwhh]

On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 3:53 AM, Umbelina said:

Yes, I already said that.

On 'The Americans,' Paige has had just about enough of this spy nonsense

 

Good points about the similarity between moms and off spring here! 

I notice that the ONLY thing "real" about the Jennings "marriage" is that there children are actually there children.  That its.  Everything else is a total lie!

You don't send 3 KGB agents to make a pinch to a former disgrace FBI agent on vacation in a 2nd world foreign county about coming to work for you.  I think if Gladd had a gun on him.  He would have wasted on 3 of them on the spot and felt good about doing that.   

If you notice they did not look like your typical KGB agents.  They look more like thugs aka the "direct action / wet work" agents of the KGB.  Also, know as the kidnapping and murder people.  I think Gladd was going to get a one way trip to the USSR dragged and stuff in a shipping crate.  But WHY the KGB would kidnap him.  Is up to the show so far!  I think the reason that one KGB thug said he was sorry because he knew when he got back to Moscow center.  The KGB was going to lay the smack down on him for screwing up the mission. 

What was Phillip making rakes for?  I have to assume they were for framing NOT for doing law work.  Not many lawns in the USSR!!

I get the feeling that Olga and KGB lady boss lady.  Are only doing the nasty because P&E cant do it any more and that got to have some sex in this show.  KGB boss lady is one stoutly built woman.  Looks like she could break Olga in half easy.

Page is not dealing with the realty of this situation well.  One moment she wants henry in this operation the next not.  I love her Russian spies not in Russia.  I like what person said, they are called just spies in Russia.  Could you image any worst plave for a kid from middle America having to go to in the 1980's than Russia!  No MTV there my friends!

I also think Elizabeth lie about not killing people going to come back to haunt them BIG time!  I think it will be the lie that send Page into the FBI hands!!!

I wonder how hard it is to learn to write, speak, and read Russia language as a teenager from middle America?  I have read that several defectors to the soviet union had a LOT problems learning the language.  Including high ranking defectors who was very smart and educated.   

 

 

 

 

The episode opens with the kind of cross-cut sequence the show doesn't do very often, particularly in its pre-credit sequences: Philip telling Paige a story about his childhood in Tobolsk, and the extreme lengths his own mother took to protect him, alternating with glimpses of Elizabeth at an uncomfortable dinner with Young-Hee's family. They say all men marry their mothers and all women marry their fathers, and Philip has wound up with a woman even more ruthless about protecting her family (and her country) than his own mama(**). In that context, it's again hard to blame Alice for going to extremes regarding the very real threat posed to her own family.

(**) Elizabeth's father, meanwhile, was a deserter during the war, and her husband would defect in a heartbeat if she ever gave him the okay to do it.

  Quote

(***) From my notes during that scene (with apologies to Mark Ronson and Bruno Mars): "Gabriel is smoother than a fresh jar of Skippy." As with the seven-month vacation, this is him looking after his top asset, but it's also him getting her to trust him more, especially since it's a request the Centre is all but certain to deny.

Edited May 21, 2016 by gwhh

[dr pepper]

Tara: i think if you were in someone's lap, they'd notice you just fine.

 

And then they'd give you a big Tatiana and Oleg shushky for yelling at the tv.

[Umbelina]

As far as the rakes?  Russians with an available plot grew as many veggies and things as they could.  I was just using google earth to look at his town and almost every little house there had a garden plot growing, some with flowers too.

My whole class learned Russian at Paige's age.  Pretty much everyone did well, but some accents were better than others.  The grammar and tenses are killer, but verb conjugation isn't too bad, except for the irregular ones, but even then, people would understand what you were trying to say.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Umbelina

[gwhh]

On May 19, 2016 at 3:53 AM, Umbelina said:

Yes, I already said that.

On 'The Americans,' Paige has had just about enough of this spy nonsense

 

Don't worry the new FBI boss knows how to handle himself!

 

[J-Man]

Quote

The "Erithrean border" threw me at first since I'm pretty sure there was no Erithrea in 1983. But I suppose Alice could have been referring to the general area of the Erithrean insurgency.

I worked at the American Embassy in Saudi Arabia in the early '80s. We had a number of "local" employees who worked as drivers and laborers, etc. Several were Ethiopian, yet they always referred to themselves as Eritreans. So even though it was not yet an autonomous country, it was a major region that had its own identity.

Has any show ever changed its opening credits so often in one short season? First we lost Nina, then we added Aderholt, then we lost Martha and next week I assume we'll be Gaad-less. (As opposed to "Godless," like those dirty Communists.)

[Umbelina]

I really hope we get the CIA in on Gaad's killing.  The FBI doesn't have people in Thailand, if that's were they were, anyone recognize that establishing shot?  The CIA will, and the crime wasn't committed on American soil, so I think that will be at least partly the CIA's job.

[CarpeDiem54]

I finally got to watch.  I never wanted to punch someone in the throat as much as Old Lady Grooveyhair until Paige started her freakout in the kitchen over possibly having to leave for Russia.  Then I wanted to punch her.  I wish Phillip would slam that snot nosed kid up against the wall and tell her to snap the hell out of it.  Obviously, this show brings out my more violent tendencies.

I agree with the few posters who aren't impressed with Holly Taylor.  She has one facial expression - constipated consternation.  Plus, I hate the Paige character in general.  She's supposed to be almost 16 and has the maturity level of a 12 year old.

I certainly hope they kill off the Grooveyhairs soon.  Maybe Alice can die in childbirth and old Timmy boy can kill himself because of a broken heart.  I just want them gone.  Then they can send Paige to "boarding school" in Russia.  It would serve her right.

[AliShibaz]

11 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

Sometimes I think that the worst crime that Phillip and Elizabeth have committed since they came to the US as sleeper agents was having kids in the first place. Yes..they are perfect cover..who would suspect a typical suburban family? But, really, what did they think was going to happen when the kids grew up and became old enough to notice things and ask questions? Did they think that they could raise them as Americans and then suddenly on their 18th birthdays turn them into Russian spies? Did anybody ever give this any thought?

I can't blame Paige for her attitude. I think that Elizabeth is so used to herself and her secret life, that she can't see how bizarre this must seem to Paige. It's like she's thinking, "Okay, Paige. So we're spies...get over it!" Meanwhile, Paige's entire world has been turned upside down. She can't just "get over it." Especially if she suspects that her parents have disappeared Pastor Tim.

Honestly, I would really like to know the Centre's plans for this. I know that they expected  Elizabeth to bring Paige into the fold, but realistically...were they really expecting this to work?

I could not agree more.

I think it's pretty clear they never stopped to consider just how they would handle things when their "kids" reached the teenage years, then the young adult years and then the adult years. They are all very different and IMO (which is not to be relied upon because I've never had any children), all these diff stages of life require diff handling.

I guess my conclusion is that since children (and I know this very well from my own experience) tend to always push the boundaries and try to find just where their limits are ... it's just crazy to have children in the first place. I think it's really crystal clear to expect they will all come very close to revealing your secrets as part of their "search for limits".

I know the idea of lying to your children is pretty repugnant. But it's one whole Hell of a lot better and easier than "Life imprisonment".

It's just so much easier and more effective to construct a solid lie and then just lie to the children. You only need to lie about a few things. It's definitely possible that they just never had many relatives in the first place and however many relatives they did have were all lost in any one of a number of ways. That is rare, but not extremely rare and as long as they had a good solid story prepared and practiced it a few times, it would be highly  unlikely the kids would ever question them at all.

The show runners just failed to anticipate this problem or else, they have some kind of big crazy surprise in store for us. Either way, it doesn't feel very good to me.

Edited May 21, 2016 by AliShibaz

[NitneLiun]

Of course Paige has thick eyebrows. Her DNA is 100% Russian. Think Brezhnev.

[La Tortuga]

Whether or not you like Holly Taylor's acting, the criticism of her character's physical appearance seems like a weird thing to get hung up on, especially blaming Holly for it. She looks that way because that's the way the production team wants Paige to look--hair, make-up, wardrobe, these are things that have been chosen by other people for Paige's character, who is supposed to be a modest, church-going girl, not a fashionista or a cheerleader or a punk. They also dress her similar to Elizabeth because they are trying to visually draw the parallel for the audience. Considering the truly awful hairstyles people had in the 80s (watch any John Hughes film, it is just appalling), Paige actually looks clean and decent.

[madam magpie]

People like to attack girls for how they look. It's the American way. 

I think it's been said before, but it seems pretty clear to me that Philip and Elizabeth intended to lie to the kids  about who they were forever and raise them as Americans. They'd made some kind of agreement at some point that the kids wouldn't be involved in their work (that came up a couple of times), and they were stunned when they got the directive about Paige. What the KGB intended? Who knows. But since the organization was huge and not on the ground and was part of the Soviet war machine, I don't have trouble believing it issued unrealistic orders at the expense of its agents. I don't think the show runners failed to anticipate any of this; it seems well planned and like a pretty big part of their story to me.

Edited May 21, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, gwhh said:

I notice that the ONLY thing "real" about the Jennings "marriage" is that there children are actually there children.  That its.  Everything else is a total lie!

What do you mean by "everything else?" There's other things in their marriage that are completely real too. A marriage is what ever the two people in it say it is.

10 hours ago, Umbelina said:

My whole class learned Russian at Paige's age.  Pretty much everyone did well, but some accents were better than others.  The grammar and tenses are killer, but verb conjugation isn't too bad, except for the irregular ones, but even then, people would understand what you were trying to say.

Yeah, plus she'd have a lot more practice with native speakers. Anybody pretty much has the ability to learn a language.

Actually, I have a friend who noticed this same thing with Martha--she's a linguist and she always is a little annoyed at the English-speaker attitude about learning languages. Paige did the same thing in this ep where she was like, "We're just going to speak Russian?" as if that's a crazy expectation. In non-English speaking countries it's often just part of a standard education to be able to actually speak a foreign language to some degree. And of course in some countries it's not even about education, it's just needing to have those skills in everyday life.

 

8 hours ago, NitneLiun said:

Of course Paige has thick eyebrows. Her DNA is 100% Russian. Think Brezhnev.

I don't think anybody is attacking what her eyebrows actually look like. It's the way they're always pointed upwards at each other due to her expression. as eyebrows go they're perfectly normal and attractive!

 

56 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

But since the organization was huge and not on the ground and was part of the Soviet war machine, I don't have trouble believing it issued unrealistic orders at the expense of its agents. I don't think the show runners failed to anticipate any of this; it seems well planned like a pretty big part of their story to me.

I agree. It's actually an interesting choice. In the story about the real family of spies like this the kids allegedly weren't told, but the parents went out of their way to make them not ordinary Americans. That is, apart from the kids being born in Canada, they spoke French at home and traveled a lot in Europe. Elizabeth seemed to want at least that for the kids--poor woman's always trying to get everyone to go to Europe as a travel agent--but the kids actually don't seem to have been raised with a pov that goes beyond US boarders. There's been references I think to Paige studying French and Henry Spanish, but in just the average jr. high/high school way that rarely results in the person being close to fluent as an adult. Even all that money Paige gave to Pastor Tim back in S2 was supposed to be her saving up to go to Europe. (Pastor Tim's travel is of the missionary trip variety.)

The parents are really more worldly in so many ways. I keep going back to that little moment in this ep where Alice announces that the state department told her Ethiopia is Soviet-controlled and there are soldiers everywhere as if it's some secret she's discovered that P&E were trying to hide while Philip says, "Ethiopia is a dangerous country--everyone knows that." It's quite possible Alice didn't know that. She quite possibly thinks of it as just the country of poor starving people free of politics.

[hellmouse]

22 hours ago, madam magpie said:

It's interesting, hellmouse, I started thinking about, and Philip/Elizabeth don't really lie to each other. They sometimes withhold for various reasons, but since that bit in season one where he lied to her about Irina, they pretty much do always tell each other the truth. That caused such a rift; I imagine they just don't go there anymore. I'm sure they'll lie to Paige, since she can't really know all they do, but Elizabeth/Philip did say something like "we might not be able to tell you everything, but we won't lie." There's something really feeling in all that. And it does create a dynamic where there's something less real and clear about all of their connection to Henry now. Interesting that Paige picked up on that.

It's interesting how much not lying is important to them. I mean, it's important to everyone, but it's stressed a lot with Elizabeth and Paige in particular. Elizabeth's mother says on the tape that Elizabeth always wanted the truth. Paige says to Elizabeth that she doesn't want to be a liar and Elizabeth says "everyone lies". Paige tells Pastor Tim "they're liars and they want me to be one". And it's true, but it's also part of growing up. It's rare to have a relationship where you don't lie at all. Of course some lies are worse than others, but to an adolescent like Paige, all lies are bad. But now she's learning that some lies are necessary. 

In terms of how they viewed the world, Elizabeth seemed more black and white while Philip was gray. It makes sense if his childhood was more overtly focused on survival. Elizabeth may have been poor, but she did not have to murder milk-stealing bullies. Philip has greater moral flexibility with one big exception - his family, whose survival he sees in black and white terms. As the KGB becomes more demanding and less coherent in those demands, Elizabeth's life is also becoming more focused on survival and her world view is becoming more gray as well. Not entirely gray, but more so than it was in the pilot, certainly. She would not have asked a handler for another solution to avoid hurting an asset - and losing a friend - in the early days of the series. 

I like your point about Henry - it's like Paige wants to at least have her whole family in on the secret. If she has to lie to outsiders, she wants to at least be truthful within her family. She is clinging to the black and white view she prized, even while seeing increasing shades of gray. Just like Elizabeth is. 

[Clanstarling]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 7:22 AM, RedHawk said:

^ Weird, I didn't mean to insert the above quote in my post and for some reason I can't get it out nor could I add a comment underneath. 

I've recently discovered that if you press the Ctrl key and right click in the quote, you'll get options that allow you to delete the quote. Found it out thanks to sloppy keyboarding.

@sistermagpie: I didn't quote this because I had to leave and come back to the forums, but I have to give you a tip of the hat for my favorite line "Every time it seems like she's finally had her eyes opened, it turns out there's another layer of lid." Another layer of lid, indeed. All boxed in - like a Russian nesting doll.

Something gelled for me during this episode, and maybe it's been discussed before, but it finally occurred to me that Pastor Groovyhair and his wife are, in their own way, accomplices to espionage. They've been sitting on the knowledge of two soviet agents for what, 9 months now? Even if they eventually turn them in, their necks are on the line too. I don't think pastoral immunity would qualify in this case. Any thoughts?

 As for Paige, she irritates - but as someone said upthread, she's supposed to. She's a teenager, with all that comes with it. And in fairness, she's faced with a unimaginable reality about her parents. Until now she hasn't thoroughly realized full extent of consequences should her parents be discovered, but focused more on their lies and her upended world. Elizabeth and Philip probably thought she understood, even though they never explicitly said they'd have to bug out - the entire family - in a best case scenario. In real life, I've seen this happen again and again - people assume someone understands and follows the line of thought through to the logical conclusion, because we expect them to think like we do.

On the other hand, at the end when she decided the timing was off in retrieving the tape (real or not), she showed herself to be developing some skills in reading people and understanding when not to push. At least when it isn't her parents.

[scartact]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

I like your point about Henry - it's like Paige wants to at least have her whole family in on the secret. If she has to lie to outsiders, she wants to at least be truthful within her family. She is clinging to the black and white view she prized, even while seeing increasing shades of gray. Just like Elizabeth is. 

On this note, perhaps Paige asks about Henry also because she's looking for a safe space. Her former safe space was more or less ruined because the truth that Pastor Groovyhair encouraged her to find out was something that completely re-contextualized her and her family's entire life. Because she has to keep up appearances with the Groovyhairs, she now has to maintain a layer of artifice that wasn't there before. Since Henry doesn't know, the three of them have to continue keeping up appearances with him and not making him suspicious. But if he did know too, then maybe it would be easier for her because then they have at least one place where they all could be safe and honest to one another (well... as far as Phil & Liz are willing to be honest about their work, because the other thing hanging like a hammer over their heads is Paige finding out they do in fact hurt people to get intel).

The one thing I'm slightly weary about on the show is how often they conveniently have all their conversations together without Henry finding out, and no hints of his suspicions. They've had screaming matches and arguments and somehow he's remained oblivious (as far as we know)!

[RedHawk]

Considering the scene where Paige and Alice were alone in the church office. First Paige cried and then while Alice was hugging her Alice broke down sobbing, and Paige became the one giving comfort. It looked to me like when we saw Paige's face in closeup a minute later there were no actual tears. It made me think she had to fake-cry as part of her interaction with Alice. Did anyone else see it that way?

[lidarose9]

12 hours ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I finally got to watch.  I never wanted to punch someone in the throat as much as Old Lady Grooveyhair until Paige started her freakout in the kitchen over possibly having to leave for Russia.  Then I wanted to punch her.  I wish Phillip would slam that snot nosed kid up against the wall and tell her to snap the hell out of it.  Obviously, this show brings out my more violent tendencies.

I realized in the episode's closing moments how much I'd wanted to slap the snot out of just about everybody in that episode. Everybody was annoying! I was waiting for Elizabeth to lie, ready to smack her too, and then when she told the truth, I was relieved. Once in a while, people have to be honest. Sometimes I think that is the whole point of this show: when your entire life is based on deception, how do you not lose sight of the real truth?

I used to tutor non-native English speakers for many years, and we have a lot of Russian immigrants living in this area, so I got to know a few people. The generation of Philip and Elizabeth's parents had lived through war, famine, starvation, mass murder, the gulag system: horrors beyond imagining. So they brought up their children to be good soldiers, to show no weakness, to do their duty absolutely without fail, to never, ever question authority. They grew up grateful to be given the opportunity to serve their country, seeing their work as vital and heroic and meaningful... plus they didn't have to starve to death or see their parents marched off in the middle of the night to never be seen again. There has never been anything in their lives in the US to make them step outside of that reality until now. It's been happening gradually for Philip, but it's happening now for Elizabeth in a big way.

Also P&E were also brought up to not talk about how bad it was. The USSR was determined to project an image of themselves as a successful, productive country full of happy, fulfilled people. NOBODY could say or do anything that conflicted with that image. You could not talk about it, write about it, publish, take pictures, anything -- on pain of death and maybe the death of your family as well. 

When Paige asks questions wanting to understand her parents' lives, they both know she can't even begin to imagine how awful it was, they've been programmed to not talk about it, and they don't want her to know. They are her parents, they want to protect her. They know if she had any clue about how horrible it was, she would ask them: "Why on earth are you still serving those people? And what's that got to do with NOW? with ME? And why on earth would I want to go live there myself? And how could you as my parents want that for me?" That is the question they can't really answer themselves. 

On another topic: I've been struggling with the believability that Tim and Alice would keep their mouths shut about this for 7 months. Apart from making themselves complicit, they also would have truly believed at the time that Soviet spies were THE WORST, like today if you knew someone from your church was hanging out with ISIS recruiters. I dunno about that whole thing. 

[Umbelina]

35 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Considering the scene where Paige and Alice were alone in the church office. First Paige cried and then while Alice was hugging her Alice broke down sobbing, and Paige became the one giving comfort. It looked to me like when we saw Paige's face in closeup a minute later there were no actual tears. It made me think she had to fake-cry as part of her interaction with Alice. Did anyone else see it that way?

I think Paige was really crying, in relief, and went into the arms of an adult who has actually comforted her, and who knows her situation.  What happened next was stunningly acted by both.  Suddenly the ADULT needed comforting, and there she was having to be the strong one again, to a woman she's been playing for months now, but honestly went to in that moment to be comforted, to have feel safe like it used to feel.  Instead?  She had to be the one comforting a very pregnant older woman.  At that point, the loss of it all, and the realization that she has no adults in her life anymore that honestly comfort her, dried up those tears.  It's gone.  Her childhood and innocence and being the one taken care of is gone.  She's not only the carer, but the betrayer. 

I loved your whole post @lidarose9!  I'd quote it because every single word was important, but it's right above mine so it seems like overkill. 

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Her childhood and innocence and being the one taken care of is gone. 

This so ironic to read after the post above it. The contrast is just so obvious. Her innocence and childhood and being taken care of is gone--well, really it's not gone since her parents and the Tims are still actually bending over backwards to protect her, putting themselves in danger for it, in fact. She's just used to more of it. But her sense of being *totally* protected and free of real responsibility is gone, and it's in part because of her own actions. It was reaching out for comfort that made her tell Pastor Tim. Now she's reaching out for comfort to the woman who's threatening to take her life away. Yet it's specifically written that it's *not* something she can completely blame on other people. She wants to have it the way it was before, where everybody was fine, she could complain about her parents to the Tims and use the Tims against her parents all of course without really hurting her parents too much themselves. She wants to be able to be both on Alice's side and her parents side, but how can she do that when one is actively threatening the other and vice versa? Yet all this was clear from the start. Her father even laid it out--don't tell anybody, not Pastor Tim. He even apologized for stating the obvious when explaining they would go to jail. But it didn't feel real until she pushed it.

And one thing we know about both her parents is they certainly didn't have that kind of innocence by her age. Her mother was the primary caregiver of her potentially dying mother at 14 and her father had to murder to protect himself at 10. Many an adolescent in the US has been hit upside the head with this kind of sudden reality at that age where you make a mistake that doesn't go away.

In this ep she kind of got a reprieve--she didn't in anyway contribute to Pastor Tim's death by telling him about her parents. But she gave Alice reason to think she had, even if Alice didn't lash out at her for dumping this dangerous knowledge on them and instead only held her godless parents responsible. Alice, too, doesn't have anybody to talk to after all, since what she probably wants to talk about is how she wishes Tim didn't insist on keeping this secret. She was partly responsible for creating a situation where the adults in her life had worries to big to always put her first. Even Pastor Tim's reaction to her telling was the first time she saw him acting as a person instead of an adult who was all about her. In a way Pastor Tim is the one in this situation who's coming out on top.

31 minutes ago, lidarose9 said:

They know if she had any clue about how horrible it was, she would ask them: "Why on earth are you still serving those people? And what's that got to do with NOW? with ME? And why on earth would I want to go live there myself? And how could you as my parents want that for me?" That is the question they can't really answer themselves. 

Is that really what they're thinking, though? I mean, when they think of their hard childhood do they think this is something they would be blaming their country for and leaving it behind? Because that in itself seems more like the way Paige would see things because she was raised to feel entitled to all this stuff. I imagine that when they picture moving back to Russia with the kids they see the kids having to get used to a life that isn't as easy but probably also isn't like their own childhoods. If Philip was suggesting they run back to the USSR with the kids he can't see it as that bad.

There's parts of the US, too, where people are struggling to survive just like Philip was, who have mothers who are predominantly tough and have to face down people with power to get a little something for their kids, who might be murdered without any justice etc. Philip has said flat-out that he wants to give his children the easy life where they never want for anything, but I feel like he just sees that as his prerogative as a father to indulge them. He doesn't have the "suffering is necessary to build character" view that Elizabeth has, but I think he still has respect for it.