S02.E13: The Coup

[theatremouse]

39 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Why is Mallory angry and huffy most of the time?  Did I miss a reason for this?

Do you mean Brianna? I don't find Mallory angry and huffy all the time. She was on bedrest and hardly present this season. (I don't personally find that description entirely applicable to Brianna either, but of the two I can see how someone else might feel that way about B.)

Edited May 29, 2016 by theatremouse

[Wings]

6 minutes ago, theatremouse said:

Do you mean Brianna? I don't find Mallory angry and huffy all the time. She was on bedrest and hardly present this season. (I don't personally find that description entirely applicable to Brianna either, but of the two I can see how someone else might feel that way about B.)

I meant Mallory.  I said most, not all of the time and that was probably incorrect.  I was just left with the impression that she was cranky a lot.   

I think her husband cheating may be her story line next season.  There would have been no reason to even bring that up, if not.  

[zxy556575]

1 hour ago, wings707 said:

I just binged watched both seasons, yesterday.

Why is Mallory angry and huffy most of the time? Did I miss a reason for this?

It's fresh in your mind so you tell us!  ;)

Honestly, all the kids got very short shrift throughout the series. I hope next season fleshes them out and explores their lives and relationships with their parents a bit more.

[Bastet]

Answering in the All Episodes thread ...

[Missy Vixen]

On 5/7/2016 at 3:44 PM, AuntieMame said:

 

Quote

Robert buying all of that jewelry like it was a choice? Just devastating. And Sol essentially said that he never thought Frankie would get recognition for her work by buying her off with a lie. I dont find these men sympathetic at all. And in the past I have theoretically sympathized with gay or bisexual people who felt they had to marry to survive in society. But these two are just irredeemable. 

I thought it was just me. I told my husband the other day that I am bored by Robert and Sol. They hurt and betrayed everyone in their families in order to stay together, and I don't give a shit about their storyline as a result. I understand that gay and bisexual people have had to fight so hard to have their relationships and their lives accepted by society, and many felt they had no other choice but to conceal their sexual orientation. I am very happy that we are now in a time in which people can be who they are.  At the same time, the fact that Robert and Sol will not take the slightest responsibility for their actions toward their ex-wives and their families, or realize the hurt they continue to cause those family members, is outrageous.

 

Quote

Sol and Robert had plenty of reasons to not be completely honest with her and they weren't because to do so would have revealed the depths of their own perfidy.

The husband is cheating on the younger daughter. It's obvious. And it'll be interesting to watch how Sol and Robert choose to pretend it's not happening and Robert does not lift a finger to help his daughter who will be left alone with four small children as a result.

Breanna grows more unpleasant with every passing episode. Her rifling the jewelry while asking if it was "open season" or whatever wasn't cute or funny. The writers are attempting to make the point that she is much more like Grace than she believes, but Grace's mistakes in life are coming back to bite her hard. Grace has insight and realizes that she must make amends. Breanna isn't anywhere near that kind of compassion. It's sad.

Spoiler

The ending was good. I would love another season, but if we don't get one, I know that Grace and Frankie are OK. 

Netflix announced a Season Three renewal the other day. I can't wait to see how Grace and Frankie handle a new season!

[possibilities]

I rewatched this episode last night, and Robert's shittiness is underscored when, after Grace confronts him about the jewelry ruse, he says something like: they're divorced now, so what does it matter, and belittles her for not being over it already. The man not only never loved her, but he doesn't even see her as vaguely human and has no idea whatsoever that decades of betrayal doesn't just go away the second you pull the plug.

Earlier in the episode, when he tells her the boxes are for her (before she opens them), she asks what's in them and he says he had the housekeeper put them together "because how would I know what you'd want?" He doesn't even care enough to ASK her what she'd like from the house, if he doesn't know, or to admit that after 40 years he might have gotten at least some idea if he'd been paying even a tiny amount of attention-- and he feels no qualms about saying it to her, as though it wouldn't be insulting or rude or hurtful in the least. He also makes sure she knows it's not that he was thinking it would be a nice gesture, or fair, or anything like that. He says he's giving her some stuff because he and Sol are downsizing. It's probably easier to shunt stuff to Grace than to haul it away.

I also think that the jewelry stash is made much worse by the fact that he pre-wrote all the notes. It's like he calculated that various moments would occur in the course of a sham marriage, so he checked off the boxes all in the beginning so when they happened he could bring out the canned response and not have to pay any attention to the actual details.

I think it's way different than thinking of someone and putting away some goodies for them, like planning for their birthday or an anniversary. He had a lifetime's worth of jewelry he bought all at the same place and apparently at the same time, wrote a lifetime's worth of rote reasons for each one, and then didn't think about it or her ever again.

Sol is selfish and a coward, but he does at least realize he's messed up, and he does have an idea of who Frankie is. It's not enough, he also disrespected and used her a lot and still does, but he's not dehumanizing her to the extreme and total degree that Robert is, i.e. he knows it's wrong, he just doesn't have the respect not to do it. Where for Robert he doesn't even have the respect to know it's wrong.

Edited May 29, 2016 by possibilities

[J.D.]

I remember in the movie "Field Of Dreams" when Kevin Costner went back to 1972 to find Doc 'Moonlight' Graham, Burt Lancaster's character in the movie.  Costner was trying to convince Doc Graham to come back with him to Iowa, and all Doc Graham wanted to talk about was his passion for medicine, caring for his patients and his love for his wife Alisha.  I remember how he specifically talked about his wife's fondness for blue hats and how every time he saw a blue hat, he always bought one for Alisha.  Later, as Costner and James Earl Jones were listening to the local residents share stories about Doc Graham, (who had since passed away), one of the residents told them that when they cleaned out Doc Graham's office after he'd passed, they found dozens of blue hats that he had never got around to giving to Alisha.  I remember that being a lump-in-the-throat moment for me,... touching and sweet. 

 

Anyway,  I'm mentioning this because that's what first came to mind for me when Grace found all that jewelry that Robert had bought for her.  I can't help but wonder that if Robert had died before Grace found out about him and Sol, would she have felt the same about the jewelry?  And so I guess the moral of the story is that it depends on how you look at things.  Some people saw that jewelry moment just like Grace did:  cold and uncaring.  Others (read: me) thought it was kind of sweet.

[theatremouse]

1 hour ago, J.D. said:

Anyway,  I'm mentioning this because that's what first came to mind for me when Grace found all that jewelry that Robert had bought for her.  I can't help but wonder that if Robert had died before Grace found out about him and Sol, would she have felt the same about the jewelry?  And so I guess the moral of the story is that it depends on how you look at things.  Some people saw that jewelry moment just like Grace did:  cold and uncaring.  Others (read: me) thought it was kind of sweet.

I really do think the difference here is the notes, and that they were prewritten, and they included things like "just because" or "I'm sorry" and seemed to be short and generic. It's a totally different thing to know your wife has a fondness for a certain type of thing, and to pick one up any time you see one, and consequently end up with a backlog of giftable items (and to theoretically later pick one from the pile and write a thoughtful note at that time either about the occasion or the origin of the item). That, I agree, is a potentially thoughtful thing, because there was thought in each purchase as one came across the items. It's a case of being always on the lookout for something that she'd love. 

That's very different from having a stockpile of gifts and prewritten cards which, due to the generic nature of what had been written, show lack of thoughtfulness (plus the implication these had potentially all been purchased at once, or over a couple of occasions). If there had been no notes in the box, and it had been clear the gifts were from different places and times (or at least been ambiguous about that) it would've been less clear cut. But the scene established this wasn't "every time I found something perfect for her collection, I grabbed it not to miss out on it." This was "I will be ready with a gift for whenever I need one. She likes that store. Buy X items there." I don't disagree that the amassed gifts, in a vaccuum has the potential to be a sweet thing, but there I think there's enough nuance to what we were shown that while Robert clearly thought he was doing the former, Grace's explanation of how little thought he put into it applies.

Plus, I mean, for me: if I do something that was intended to make you happy but you explain to me it made you feel unvalued because of it, even if I think my reasoning was sound, and my intentions were good, if I care, it has to impact me and give me pause for future action figuring in that how I would've reacted to the same is not how you would've. I think Grace was reasonable here, and had a point, and had he shown some willingness to have that "Oh. I see how you could take it that way" lightbulb moment it would've made him less of an ass. "But I meant well" might get you one brownie point. "Because I meant well means you cannot be offended" loses it.

Edited May 30, 2016 by theatremouse

[AuntieMame]

1 hour ago, J.D. said:

I remember in the movie "Field Of Dreams" when Kevin Costner went back to 1972 to find Doc 'Moonlight' Graham, Burt Lancaster's character in the movie.  Costner was trying to convince Doc Graham to come back with him to Iowa, and all Doc Graham wanted to talk about was his passion for medicine, caring for his patients and his love for his wife Alisha.  I remember how he specifically talked about his wife's fondness for blue hats and how every time he saw a blue hat, he always bought one for Alisha.  Later, as Costner and James Earl Jones were listening to the local residents share stories about Doc Graham, (who had since passed away), one of the residents told them that when they cleaned out Doc Graham's office after he'd passed, they found dozens of blue hats that he had never got around to giving to Alisha.  I remember that being a lump-in-the-throat moment for me,... touching and sweet. 

 

Anyway,  I'm mentioning this because that's what first came to mind for me when Grace found all that jewelry that Robert had bought for her.  I can't help but wonder that if Robert had died before Grace found out about him and Sol, would she have felt the same about the jewelry?  And so I guess the moral of the story is that it depends on how you look at things.  Some people saw that jewelry moment just like Grace did:  cold and uncaring.  Others (read: me) thought it was kind of sweet.

theatrsemouse beat me to it, but the difference Is that Robert would never, could never talk about Grace with such intimacy and affection. I think Sol might be in for a few surprises because I think Robert might just be a cold man...sexual accessories be damned.

[J.D.]

People are complicated. I disagree with the consensus that Robert and Sol did NOT love Grace and Frankie just because they DO love one another.  I don't think it has to be an 'either-or' situation.  In a perfect world they could have saved Grace and Frankie a 20 year heartache, if they had simply owned their sexual orientation early on, but then we wouldn't have a show since that's the pivotal axis here.

Trust me when I say, I'm not defending their 20 year affair. I've been cheated on before, and I would wager that few fans of this show can say they haven't.  Still, I don't believe Robert and Sol stayed with Grace and Frankie out of malice or selfishness.  I think they didn't want to hurt them, and they didn't want to break up the family.  They are from a generation that typically believes that when you make your bed, you lie in it.  I think they tried to tough it out, until they couldn't anymore.   

Again, I'm not condoning.  I'm just trying to see things from EVERY character's viewpoint.

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, J.D. said:

People are complicated. I disagree with the consensus that Robert and Sol did NOT love Grace and Frankie just because they DO love one another.  I don't think it has to be an 'either-or' situation.  In a perfect world they could have saved Grace and Frankie a 20 year heartache, if they had simply owned their sexual orientation early on, but then we wouldn't have a show since that's the pivotal axis here.

Trust me when I say, I'm not defending their 20 year affair. I've been cheated on before, and I would wager that few fans of this show can say they haven't.  Still, I don't believe Robert and Sol stayed with Grace and Frankie out of malice or selfishness.  I think they didn't want to hurt them, and they didn't want to break up the family.  They are from a generation that typically believes that when you make your bed, you lie in it.  I think they tried to tough it out, until they couldn't anymore.   

Again, I'm not condoning.  I'm just trying to see things from EVERY character's viewpoint.

Honestly, I don't see it as an either or situation and I don't think other posters do as well. I believe they've, just like myself, formed this opinion based off of how the men treat their ex-wives. Sol clearly cares for and still loves Frankie, but Robert is shown as being indifferent and uncaring to how Grace feels. Robert cared about Grace because they had a system that worked well and she played her part fantastically--he depended on her for appearance. Other than that...he is really insensitive to her and her feelings and disregards her a lot of the time. 

The other problem is: how the show treats Sol and Robert's relationship, which again, is mainly Robert. He is portray like never loving Grace and that it has to be either or. Sol isn't. But, when they mostly disregard how their ex wives of over 40 years feel, it's hard to feel sympathetic to them. I know why they stayed, it's their behavior afterwards that is appalling to me. 

[JBC344]

6 hours ago, J.D. said:

I remember in the movie "Field Of Dreams" when Kevin Costner went back to 1972 to find Doc 'Moonlight' Graham, Burt Lancaster's character in the movie.  Costner was trying to convince Doc Graham to come back with him to Iowa, and all Doc Graham wanted to talk about was his passion for medicine, caring for his patients and his love for his wife Alisha.  I remember how he specifically talked about his wife's fondness for blue hats and how every time he saw a blue hat, he always bought one for Alisha.  Later, as Costner and James Earl Jones were listening to the local residents share stories about Doc Graham, (who had since passed away), one of the residents told them that when they cleaned out Doc Graham's office after he'd passed, they found dozens of blue hats that he had never got around to giving to Alisha.  I remember that being a lump-in-the-throat moment for me,... touching and sweet. 

 

Anyway,  I'm mentioning this because that's what first came to mind for me when Grace found all that jewelry that Robert had bought for her.  I can't help but wonder that if Robert had died before Grace found out about him and Sol, would she have felt the same about the jewelry?  And so I guess the moral of the story is that it depends on how you look at things.  Some people saw that jewelry moment just like Grace did:  cold and uncaring.  Others (read: me) thought it was kind of sweet.

I also think it is the approach that Robert took with it all.  The pre-written notes sort of pushed it over the edge.  Also I think it could of played differently if say the notes weren't there and if all the jewelry was from Grace's favorite designer and Robert was stockpiling it because he wanted Grace to have every piece that was made because he knew how much she appreciated the designs and craftsmanship.

Also the delivery wasn't great either.  It was basically "I had the housekeeper empty out the junk drawers and made you a pile and put your name on it.".  I think if he had sat Grace down and said that he had some gifts for her that he wanted her to have that he was saving and didn't have an opportunity to give them to her before the divorce but he knew how much she would like them and wanted her to have them despite everything.  I think Grace would of appreciated them more.  I mean he really didn't even remember the gifts in the first place.

[Wings]

12 hours ago, J.D. said:

People are complicated. I disagree with the consensus that Robert and Sol did NOT love Grace and Frankie just because they DO love one another.  I don't think it has to be an 'either-or' situation.  In a perfect world they could have saved Grace and Frankie a 20 year heartache, if they had simply owned their sexual orientation early on, but then we wouldn't have a show since that's the pivotal axis here.

Trust me when I say, I'm not defending their 20 year affair. I've been cheated on before, and I would wager that few fans of this show can say they haven't.  Still, I don't believe Robert and Sol stayed with Grace and Frankie out of malice or selfishness.  I think they didn't want to hurt them, and they didn't want to break up the family.  They are from a generation that typically believes that when you make your bed, you lie in it.  I think they tried to tough it out, until they couldn't anymore.   

Again, I'm not condoning.  I'm just trying to see things from EVERY character's viewpoint.

 I think Sol truly loved Frankie and still does.  I see Robert being in a marriage of convenience.  She looked good on his arm for business.  We saw that aspect when he admitted to Sol that she knew how to enter a room.  She was a cold and calculating woman who did not offer him a lot of warmth and that suited him very well.  When he asked her if she had been happy it seemed he expected her to say no, because he wasn't.  

[J.D.]

9 minutes ago, wings707 said:

 I think Sol truly loved Frankie and still does.  I see Robert being in a marriage of convenience.  She looked good on his arm for business.  We saw that aspect when he admitted to Sol that she knew how to enter a room.  She was a cold and calculating woman who did not offer him a lot of warmth and that suited him very well.  When he asked her if she had been happy it seemed he expected her to say no, because he wasn't.  

Yes, that.  Plus, I think people are being a little too hard on Robert for his lack of emotional commitment to Grace considering how uptight and closed off she is emotionally. I don't read her as a loving and giving wife.  I read her as a type "A" personality, the kind who lives by schedules, and that her business came first when she was in charge of the cosmetic company. Only now do we start to see Grace 'warming up' to feelings and that which is more important than one's career.  For example, like the epiphany she had when she realized that the ottoman being placed where it was placed wasn't "all wrong," as she had put it...but rather it was perfect for two people who wanted to sit next to one another, resting their feet while they talked about their day's events.

Any spouse, gay or straight, is going to consider looking elsewhere after years of disconnect.  Again, I'm not condoning the affair because I think Robert should have ended the marriage and moved on if he was that unhappy.   Nothing was going to make him 'straight,' so why prolong the inevitable?  That only intensifies the pain.

[Wings]

4 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Yes, that.  Plus, I think people are being a little too hard on Robert for his lack of emotional commitment to Grace considering how uptight and closed off she is emotionally. I don't read her as a loving and giving wife.  I read her as a type "A" personality, the kind who lives by schedules, and that her business came first when she was in charge of the cosmetic company. Only now do we start to see Grace 'warming up' to feelings and that which is more important than one's career.  For example, like the epiphany she had when she realized that the ottoman being placed where it was placed wasn't "all wrong," as she had put it...but rather it was perfect for two people who wanted to sit next to one another, resting their feet while they talked about their day's events.

Any spouse, gay or straight, is going to consider looking elsewhere after years of disconnect.  Again, I'm not condoning the affair because I think Robert should have ended the marriage and moved on if he was that unhappy.   Nothing was going to make him 'straight,' so why prolong the inevitable?  That only intensifies the pain.

Yes!  The details of the personalities have been carefully crafted.  The writing is good and the concept stellar. 

I like how Grace is waking up to what her marriage really was and allowing joy into her life.  I expect to see more changes from Frankie along the lines of becoming stronger and not needing her sternum rubbed when panicked about some small thing.  They touched on these changes in the last episode, but we will see more.  

[J.D.]

3 minutes ago, wings707 said:

Yes!  The details of the personalities have been carefully crafted.  The writing is good and the concept stellar. 

I like how Grace is waking up to what her marriage really was and allowing joy into her life.  I expect to see more changes from Frankie along the lines of becoming stronger and not needing her sternum rubbed when panicked about some small thing.  They touched on these changes in the last episode, but we will see more.  

Exactly!!!  I don't think the writers intended the show to be "Good Guys  -vs- Bad Guys."  I think there are many layers to each character's personality, which is part of what draws me to the show and keeps my interest.  I like when writers start to peel away the onion and unravel complicated characters.  Nothing turns me off more than a show with shallow writing and a one dimensional cast of characters.

[Wings]

8 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Exactly!!!  I don't think the writers intended the show to be "Good Guys  -vs- Bad Guys."  I think there are many layers to each character's personality, which is part of what draws me to the show and keeps my interest.  I like when writers start to peel away the onion and unravel complicated characters.  Nothing turns me off more than a show with shallow writing and a one dimensional cast of characters.

I can see Sol leaving Robert.  Then we see Robert finally awaking to the fact that he is strident and hard to love.  Will the priest from the dog park help him with this?  Probably.  Sol will find a man who is a better fit and one who will appreciate Frankie in his life and accept his quirks and huaraches.  And I bet his new man is a free spirit and maybe even an artist! 

Edited May 30, 2016 by wings707

[Julia]

11 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Honestly, I don't see it as an either or situation and I don't think other posters do as well. I believe they've, just like myself, formed this opinion based off of how the men treat their ex-wives. Sol clearly cares for and still loves Frankie, but Robert is shown as being indifferent and uncaring to how Grace feels. Robert cared about Grace because they had a system that worked well and she played her part fantastically--he depended on her for appearance. Other than that...he is really insensitive to her and her feelings and disregards her a lot of the time.

 

9 hours ago, JBC344 said:

I also think it is the approach that Robert took with it all.  The pre-written notes sort of pushed it over the edge.  Also I think it could of played differently if say the notes weren't there and if all the jewelry was from Grace's favorite designer and Robert was stockpiling it because he wanted Grace to have every piece that was made because he knew how much she appreciated the designs and craftsmanship.

Also the delivery wasn't great either.  It was basically "I had the housekeeper empty out the junk drawers and made you a pile and put your name on it.".  I think if he had sat Grace down and said that he had some gifts for her that he wanted her to have that he was saving and didn't have an opportunity to give them to her before the divorce but he knew how much she would like them and wanted her to have them despite everything.  I think Grace would of appreciated them more.  I mean he really didn't even remember the gifts in the first place.

I tend to agree with these points. I think that the presents were a way of deflecting Grace, and I didn't see anything in his reaction to their discovery which suggested that he remembered that they existed, or cared about them if he did. I think it's a bit late to retcon a man who convinced his secret lover of forty years to cut off the wives they betrayed financially in an attempt to get a better divorce settlement into basically a real sweet guy. Then he told Sol he'd rather have Grace as his hostess because unlike Sol, she made him look good?

What a mensch.

 

31 minutes ago, J.D. said:

Yes, that.  Plus, I think people are being a little too hard on Robert for his lack of emotional commitment to Grace considering how uptight and closed off she is emotionally. I don't read her as a loving and giving wife.  I read her as a type "A" personality, the kind who lives by schedules, and that her business came first when she was in charge of the cosmetic company. Only now do we start to see Grace 'warming up' to feelings and that which is more important than one's career.  For example, like the epiphany she had when she realized that the ottoman being placed where it was placed wasn't "all wrong," as she had put it...but rather it was perfect for two people who wanted to sit next to one another, resting their feet while they talked about their day's events.

Um. I think it's a hell of a stretch to look at a woman who spent forty years being Perfect for a man who didn't love her or offer her any emotional support, and who mocked her to their closest friends, and assume she started the marriage as cold as she is now. I think it's an even bigger stretch to assume that her husband, who's been pretty clear that he married Grace because she enhanced his status socially and that he's not sexually attracted to women, started out the marriage loving, naive and emotionally available and it was only her coldness which, what, turned him into a greedy narcissist?

I'll give you this - I'm pretty sure that insofar as Robert realizes what an emotional cripple he is and what damage he's done, that's probably the kind of Bettelheim logic he uses to justify himself.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Julia
spacing

[J.D.]

11 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I can see Sol leaving Robert.  Then we see Robert finally awaking to the fact that he is strident and hard to love.  Will the priest from the dog park help him with this?  Probably.  Sol will find a man who is a better fit and one who will appreciate Frankie in his life and accept his quirks and huaraches.  And I bet his new man is a free spirit and maybe even an artist! 

Well, that sure would give the writers a lot more "meat" to work with.  They could pen awkward family gatherings where Robert and Sol show up with their new relationships and Grace and Frankie playing referee.  

[J.D.]

8 minutes ago, Julia said:

Um. I think it's a hell of a stretch to look at a woman who spent forty years being Perfect for a man who didn't love her or offer her any emotional support, and who mocked her to their closest friends, and assume she started the marriage as cold as she is now.

You talk as if Grace has no culpability.  Somewhere during that forty year span she had to have seen there's something wrong.  Why stay?

[Julia]

26 minutes ago, J.D. said:

You talk as if Grace has no culpability.  Somewhere during that forty year span she had to have seen there's something wrong.  Why stay?

Well, it wasn't because she got all the little details of her life taken care of while she supplemented her loveless marriage with a piece on the side who she forced her spouse to share all his leisure time with, so unlike Robert, I don't think her motivation was being coldhearted. Grace appears to believe she has to earn love and respect by being perfect, so off the top of my head I'd guess she thinks people don't love her because she's not perfect enough.

Also, although I understand they didn't mean anything to Robert, Grace apparently took her vows seriously. That's a thing, still.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Julia

[Wings]

I picture Grace growing up in an affluent home and as a girl viewed her future spouse to be well educated and from a similar background and so did Robert.  Perfect match.  They were probably more loving toward each other in the beginning but I sense they were acting the parts to each other.  

34 minutes ago, Julia said:

Also, although I understand they didn't mean anything to Robert, Grace apparently took her vows seriously. That's a thing, still.

She had the contractor on the side so I am not sure how seriously.  I think she is a mixed bag with this one.  It is easier to stay than to go so she stayed.  She had a nice home, wealth and social status.  She was able to put her vows aside for Phil.  She cannot continue with him because her morals kicked in.   No one is 100% with anything. 

[Wings]

1 hour ago, J.D. said:

Well, that sure would give the writers a lot more "meat" to work with.  They could pen awkward family gatherings where Robert and Sol show up with their new relationships and Grace and Frankie playing referee.  

They have to do something to shake it up and the "boys" seems a likely place to start.  I am not sure family gatherings would happen with all of them but there would be some run ins with each other.  It is fertile ground. 

[J.D.]

13 minutes ago, wings707 said:

I picture Grace growing up in an affluent home and as a girl viewed her future spouse to be well educated and from a similar background and so did Robert.  Perfect match.  They were probably more loving toward each other in the beginning but I sense they were acting the parts to each other.  

She had the contractor on the side so I am not sure how seriously.  I think she is a mixed bag with this one.  It is easier to stay than to go so she stayed.  She had a nice home, wealth and social status.  She was able to put her vows aside for Phil.  She cannot continue with him because her morals kicked in.   No one is 100% with anything. 

I agree.  I think she stayed in the marriage out of convenience.  To recap:  It wasn't for love if we're to believe there wasn't any.  It wasn't for financial support because she owned her own company.  It wasn't for sex because we get the impression that, too, was lacking.  It wasn't for the kids, at least once they were grown.  So why stay -- for FORTY years no less -- if her marriage was such a sham?  I can understand a marriage hitting a snag and wanting to tough it out for a while if both parties are willing to work on things, get counseling,...etc.  But forty years is ridiculous!  It's almost like saying, "Look, I put in forty years so I want a reward for that."  Isn't everyone responsible for their own happiness?

Edited May 30, 2016 by J.D.

[Wings]

18 minutes ago, J.D. said:

I agree.  I think she stayed in the marriage out of convenience.  To recap:  It wasn't for love if we're to believe there wasn't any.  It wasn't for financial support because she owned her own company.  It wasn't for sex because we get the impression that, too, was lacking.  It wasn't for the kids, at least once they were grown.  So why stay -- for FORTY years no less -- if her marriage was such a sham?  I can understand a marriage hitting a snag and wanting to tough it out for a while if both parties are willing to work on things, get counseling,...etc.  But forty years is ridiculous!  It's almost like saying, "Look, I put in forty years so I want a reward for that."  Isn't everyone responsible for their own happiness?

That is easy to say.  It is so much easier to stay with what is familiar than uproot your life.  She did say she was happy enough.   And she thought that was normal so it made sense to stay; she just didn't know it could be better. 

[J.D.]

11 minutes ago, wings707 said:

That is easy to say.  It is so much easier to stay with what is familiar than uproot your life.  She did say she was happy enough.   And she thought that was normal so it made sense to stay; she just didn't know it could be better. 

I somewhat agree with this.  It is definitely easier (in the short term) to stay than to uproot your life.  But it's the long term people have to think about.  

There's so much more I'd like to say, but we're already walking on a thin line here, and any minute now I except a Mod to pop in and say we need to get back on track about the show.  :)

[Wings]

4 minutes ago, J.D. said:

I somewhat agree with this.  It is definitely easier (in the short term) to stay than to uproot your life.  But it's the long term people have to think about.  

There's so much more I'd like to say, but we're already walking on a thin line here, and any minute now I except a Mod to pop in and say we need to get back on track about the show.  :)

I thought we were talking about the show, Grace in particular.  

[possibilities]

I think this show has done a good job of showing the ways that Grace is working on herself and taking responsibility for her life. She has not in fact spent this entire time venting to Robert about her unhappiness. I think that whether or not she was maximizing her potential by staying for 40 years, this does not get him off the hook for his lies and other failures, which are still coming to light in this episode.

Both Grace and Frankie have been EXTREMELY civil, understanding, and even supportive of their exes, while Robert in particular has made little to no effort and has in fact been quite demanding and callous towards both Grace and Frankie, even pressuring Sol to try to have a more adversarial divorce with Frankie instead of working towards an amicable settlement (I'm talking about cutting off the credit cards to leverage a "better deal"). I don't know how many of us would be as friendly with our exes after that, as these two are. And that doesn't even count attending their wedding to each other, let alone helping to organize it on short notice.

Although Grace did have her initial affair with the contractor, she cut it off and felt like it was wrong. Robert has yet to apologize or acknowledge the level of betrayal he perpetuated on Grace, and has never really heard her out on any issue. In this episode, Grace for the very first time saw how little he cared or tried even when they were together, and her ability to settle or be deceived in the past does not exonerate Robert for his part in all of this, at least not as far as I'm concerned.

I think that all along, the women have tried really hard to be understanding and accepting and forgiving-- even though it also angers and hurts them how they were treated-- and that they should be regarded by their families with appreciation and gratitude for that, not dismissed as in the wrong for putting up with or forgiving the failures of their partners. I think a lot of people stay in less than ideal situations out of good faith and a belief that everyone is doing their best, and that maybe it's not perfect but you took a vow for the good times and the bad ones-- but on the assumption that the other person is also behaving honorably, not deliberately manipulating you, living a double life, and acting in bad faith. 

I don't think Grace, Frankie, the show, or the viewers have ever said that the women are perfect and the men should be thrown into a pit of fire. But in this episode, the families were called out for the ways they belittle the women and I think that was a fair and well-earned statement to make. It's not the only statement the show has made, but I think it was one of many and I loved that they didn't try to sweep it under the rug just because it's not the only truth in play.

I also think that it's easy to generalize from the show's relationships to others (from real life or other fiction), but that it's not really fair to do that, even though it's tempting. I think this show is talking about people and issues that usually get passed over, so it's not necessarily meant to be making statements about other situations or people, and it challenges a lot of us in a lot of ways. I know my inclination to be sympathetic to LGBT people is in tension with my inclination to be sympathetic to women in general and also with my feelings about interpersonal honesty and relationship values. They hit all those bases and more, when a lot of shows just go for one or at most 2 at a time. I'm thrilled they're making a third season and that even as we all react to different things in different ways, we all seem to see the same potential for lots of interesting directions they could take it.

[JBC344]

As much as I like to point out Robert's flaws, and the show has no qualms with showcasing them, I don't think Robert being wrong makes Grace right.  In terms of the cheating and deceit of course that is on Robert, but I think that Grace has also learned from the experience that she has her own issues to deal with and Robert being gay wasn't the only issue in their marriage.  I mean juxtapose them with Frankie and Sol (I'm not implying their situation is better) where the deceit was there as well but they still had a bond that wasn't about him being the husband and her being the wife.

I don't think that Grace grew up in affluence.  When she was mentoring the bartender she corrected the young woman's assumption that Grace was just a rich girl all her life.  Grace countered that with saying she had been working since she was 16.  Now I don't think Grace grew up in a trailer park but I don't think she grew up with money either.  Her social status to me is more of a reflection of her and Robert building great businesses and coming up threw the ranks of those circles.  At the end of the day it is a skill set that some people can excel at, even those of us who grew up with no money.

As far as Phil, Grace made it a point to tell Frankie that she never slept with Phil 15 years ago.  That was a line that she drew in the sand.  Now if she had run off with him back then she of course would of, but my point is that she was torn enough about Robert and her marriage to not go there originally.  It sounds like her and Phil got caught up in the "secret dates" and she may have fell in love with him, but I think at the end of the day she took her vows seriously.

As another poster mentioned as deceitful as Robert has been in their marriage, at some point you have to take control of your own life and happiness.  It seems to me as much as Grace may have loved Phil she wasn't entirely ready to give up on Robert. 

[AuntieMame]

And it is so easy to just get from one day to the next when you've figured out how to do that with someone. I agree that Grace could have and maybe should have taken a closer look at her marriage, but seeing long term consequences isn't always easy. That said, Grace made a huge mistake with Phil...not just leaving him waiting but not examining why adultery and leaving her marriage tempted her in the first place. I get the feeling that Grace looked at her love for Phil, but not at why her heart was available for another love. Once that became clear via the affair, she should have looked at things more closely independent of the affair if that makes sense. 

[JBC344]

1 minute ago, AuntieMame said:

And it is so easy to just get from one day to the next when you've figured out how to do that with someone. I agree that Grace could have and maybe should have taken a closer look at her marriage, but seeing long term consequences isn't always easy. That said, Grace made a huge mistake with Phil...not just leaving him waiting but not examining why adultery and leaving her marriage tempted her in the first place. I get the feeling that Grace looked at her love for Phil, but not at why her heart was available for another love. Once that became clear via the affair, she should have looked at things more closely independent of the affair if that makes sense. 

Really great point.  She sort of "chose" Robert but never really came back to the marriage to try and work on it.  Now of course we know the marriage would of been doomed in hindsight, but that examination would of probably saved them a lot of heartache and time.

[Wings]

This is such a good show I want season 3 now!  ***stomps feet***  That is a problem when you binge watch 2 seasons in one day.  There is serious withdrawal to negotiate.  

We can all look back and come up with some things we would like to do over.  Things we didn't see at the time. We are watching a story unfold with all the could have, should haves coming to light as hindsight always illuminates. 

I find all the characters and situations believable.  

Edited May 30, 2016 by wings707

[J.D.]

9 minutes ago, wings707 said:

This is such a good show I want season 3 now!  ***stomps feet***  That is a problem when you binge watch 2 seasons in one day.  There is serious withdrawal to negotiate.  

We can all look back and come up with some things we would like to do over.  Things we didn't see at the time. We are watching a story unfold with all the would have, should haves coming to light as hindsight always illuminates. 

I find all the characters and situations believable.  

Me too.  I'm gonna hold my breath until they give us season 3.  ;P   I love this show-!!!  I could see myself living in these character's neighborhood...maybe hanging out with Bud and Coyote since they're closer to my age:  28.

[Wings]

Just now, J.D. said:

Me too.  I'm gonna hold my breath until they give us season 3.  ;P   I love this show-!!!  I could see myself living in these character's neighborhood...maybe hanging out with Bud and Coyote since they're closer to my age:  28.

I want to live in one of the houses on Malibu beach and get to know Frankie and Grace!  I would have parties and invite the entire family!  LOL! 

[AuntieMame]

Brilliant post @possibilities! I too feel the tension between sympathetic classes of people, but the ethical and relationship values, as you put it, end up coming out on top for me. Grace and Frankie have made mistakes, sure, have failed to be fully self aware and actualized and both of them are working on these things. Robert and Sol committed actual wrongs, repeatedly for decades and Robert doesn't seem to want to acknowledge that at all. He really seems to think that Grace should just be over it.

And those gifts! Sorry, but I just don't see anything thoughtful or affectionate here, especially from a man who wanted to cheat his wronged wife out of a reasonable divorce settlement. And humiliate her by cancelling the credit cards. Though small knipick, shouldn't cosmetic tycoon Grace have her own credit? This plot point makes more sense for Frankie who was in a more traditional position financially. It would have been interesting if Grace had to loan Frankie credit and money during the transition. Boy, if I were Bud, I would have been kicking ass and taking names when the guys pulled this. It was insult to injury and unconscionable.

[Wings]

As in any drama TV or movie, there usually is a protagonist; Robert has that role now.  We have seen nothing redeeming.   

[Julia]

I don't know that I see the mods swooping in. This is all stuff that's implicit in the show, and the disagreements don't appear to me to be heated or abusive. MMV.

[AuntieMame]

6 hours ago, Julia said:

I don't know that I see the mods swooping in. This is all stuff that's implicit in the show, and the disagreements don't appear to me to be heated or abusive. MMV.

Agree. I've been enjoying the posts with a different opinion or viewpoint. It makes me think and sometimes adjust my opinions. Not only is the show amazing, but the conversation is too. 

@J.D. so glad to know younger people are watching this show! I wondered, but the emotions and struggles are so universal I could see it having a wide appeal. 47 here. My son is your age.

Edited May 31, 2016 by AuntieMame
Adding a thought.

[hnygrl]

I got a feeling (well, it's more of an earnest, deep-seated WISH) that next season Bud's gonna blow his stack and leave the family. That poor guy is holding it down for both sides of the family AND doing his job AND doing Robert's job. That man is the backbone of the whole entire family and his back is breaking slowly. I think (wish, hope hope hope) that season 3 will see Bud telling these people that he can't do it anymore and they're all on their own. And Coyote has to find an apartment and get off his sofa.

That's one of the things I kept looking at all season: the way Bud was holding it down for everybody. Even on his birthday. At his own party. He's trying to be the voice of reason and the calming influence when he should be walking out the door and celebrating with his friends. What friends? He's too busy mothering grown adults to even have them. Thank God he's got a girlfriend. Hopefully she'll help him.

Everybody sees how hard he's working and what a strain he's under and nobody steps in and offers to carry part of the burden. He's doing the job of three men at work and he has to drop everything and find the time to be his mama's legal representative. Like he doesn't have anything else to do. He's bringing home huge boxes of files to work on and all Coyote can do is whine at him about his birth mother. Nobody thinks about Bud. And hopefully next season? They'll see what a mistake that is.

Hell, growing up? BUD DID ALL THE HOUSEWORK. Not mom. Not dad, not Coyote, not we take turns or have a chore chart, but BUD DOES THE HOUSEWORK.

[AuntieMame]

I know right? Maybe Bud should check out Codependent Anonymous. That's a joke, but not really. There is a caretaker in every dysfunctional family and Bud seems to be it. The problem is that sooner or later this person collapses under the strain and realizes that a lot of their hard work has been wasted. It's really sad and so familiar to so many. I think Grace and Bud could connect. I know Grace is written as cold but as another poster put it, she made the trains run on time for everyone for years. Its never even acknowledged and I don't get the feeling that Bud's sacrifices are acknowledged either. I know the writers made a couple missteps with Brianna, but so brilliant that even the kids follow known types but are fully realized too. Bud the savior, Coyote the problem child and addict, Mallory the secretly resentful good girl and Brianna the secretly pained misanthrope.

[Clanstarling]

I am the Grace in my family (getting the trains run on time), albeit warmer, because I was the Bud in my childhood family. When you grow up in chaos, you yearn for order.

[Julia]

Yeah, I feel for Bud too.

My mom is emotionally Grace and functionally Frankie. My dad was emotionally Robert and functionally Sol. My daughter, thankfully, is too sensible for all of us.

[EdnasEdibles]

On May 19, 2016 at 3:34 PM, AuntieMame said:

EdnasEdibles...I'm curious, why do you not like the Five Love Languages? I ask not to defend the book, but because it's been recommended to me a number of times and I had a visceral response after doing a bit of googling that it was pop psychology of the moment, e.g. that there was some surface truth to its hook but that we'd all be stuck with it as a cultural reference like Mars and Venus for years to come. 

Gifts are nice certainly, but their potential for abuse and the loaded politics surrounding them always made me nervous. Poor Grace really got bitten with the sharp teeth of this one. I'm not certain which woman I feel worse for, Grace whose marriage ended up being emptier than she ever dreamed possible or Frankie whose seemingly intimate and warm marriage his betrayal of such magnitude. I thought the gifts were a brilliant illustration as was, come to think of it, was the thing with Frankie's painting. Perfect symbols for what was wrong and how it manifested at the heart of both marriages. Hats off to the writers.

Sorry - I just saw this - I guess "terrible" is overstating it. I think it oversimplifies. Or maybe I just had a terrible therapist who was using it. It is my opinion (and I am not a trained psychologist but I did get an A in Psych 101 in 1995 so . . .) that the book is a little rigid. I think most people flip flop throughout the love languages depending upon the situation. Sometimes I LOVE a thoughtful gift but sometimes I just really need someone to spend quality time with me and listen to me. Other times, I want the bathroom cleaned without you acting like you just cured cancer. I think part of being in a relationship is communicating enough and being observant enough to figure out what is needed in any given situation. So there's that aspect of it. I just couldn't deal with the oversimplification of it in the stories the author used "Jane and her husband were miserable and near divorce. But then they took my quiz and John realized that Jane wanted gifts. Jane realized John wanted physical touch. She started being more physical with her husband and he brought her roses every night. Now they are celebrating their 50th anniversary!" Gag. 

But I do like the fact that it does point out the various ways that love can be expressed and can help people become more aware of how their parent/friend/partner is expressing love. 

[Sesquipedalia]

This show overall is really hit or miss for me, but the season finale episode was fucking EPIC. Loved. It.

[AuntieMame]

On 6/1/2016 at 7:41 AM, clanstarling said:

I am the Grace in my family (getting the trains run on time), albeit warmer, because I was the Bud in my childhood family. When you grow up in chaos, you yearn for order.

I hear you @clanstarling, through I'm trying to remember that I'm a person too ATM, not just a collection of services for my near and dear. 

Thanks @EdnasEdibles. That is kind of what I thought, a bit of good information that was oversimp!ified and rigidly applied was my take on it. Your line about acting like one has cured cancer after doing a routine chore cracked me up in a needed way. Mr. AuntieMame tends to do this and I now have a great way to describe it. Cheers. 

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Thanks @EdnasEdibles. That is kind of what I thought, a bit of good information that was oversimp!ified and rigidly applied was my take on it. Your line about acting like one has cured cancer after doing a routine chore cracked me up in a needed way. Mr. AuntieMame tends to do this and I now have a great way to describe it. Cheers. 

Fortunately, Mr. Clanstarling doesn't do this. Which is good, because I don't give bonus points for doing routine chores. It's not like women get them. I've never seen a magazine story that says "Women, you know what really turns your man on? Take out the trash."

[AuntieMame]

Lol. Cook dinner. Fold laundry. Sweep the floor. Etc. Once, when I was ill Mr. AuntieMame did finish laundry I'd started before going down like nine pins. When it became clear that I wasn't getting back up anytime soon, he grudgingly dealt with it. I was bitchy born out of misery and when he looked for praise I snappy "I wonder what the medal will say." I was very careful as a single mom (Mr. AuntieMame is a late in life marriage) to NOT raise my son this way. I really tried to think about not only making him competent, but about what he would be like for future wife or girlfriends. More important even than the skills is the attitude. That this isn't magic relegated to one sex. I also believe that women should be financially capable. Goose gander here at Chez AM but boy those traditional expectations are still strong because I doubt Robert ever gave a thought to the running of that big house unless something he reached for didn't come immediately to hand. And we know codependent Bud did the cleaning at Sol and Frankie's. I love Bud and felt bad for him that people seemed more annoyed than sympathetic that he too was having issues being trapped in an elevator. 

 

 

[Bluedog100]

Did anyone else but me wonder if those diamonds in that jewelry were real?  Were those Cartier boxes?  I love the Grace and Frankie dynamic and would be interested to hear if Fonda and Tomlin get a kick out of filming together.  Hoping that they do.

[Bastet]

Oh, I'm sure they do.  They've been friends for so long and both place great importance on female friendships, so I'm sure getting to do this show, with each other, is something they really enjoy.  Their comments certainly indicate they do, and this a case where I believe it's 100% genuine, regardless of needing to promote the show.

[possibilities]

Lily and Jane were on James Corden's show together a while ago, and they were fun for me to watch. I hope it's genuine.