S04.E08: The Magic of David Copperfield V: The Statue of Liberty Disappears

[Tetraneutron]

12 hours ago, scartact said:

I do agree that she's ultimately not treating Paige like a spy, but the way she presents a very specific plan of action so that Paige can maintain a relationship with Pastor Tim and Alice is very much utilizing spycraft so that they ensure those two don't break and go to the FBI. Of course Elizabeth would probably do a much better job if she treated Paige strictly as a spy, but Paige is her daughter, so I get a sense there's no way for her to fully separate who Paige is with the full spy treatment. Elizabeth also doesn't actually say she's treating Paige like a spy either, does she? It may be stupid from a spy perspective (not sure if I agree here either, but then again I'm no spy), but Elizabeth is reacting to Paige as a mother telling her child to take responsibility for her actions. This kind of goes back to that one episode where Elizabeth gives Paige all that kitchen work because, as Elizabeth says, sometimes being an adult is doing things you really don't want to do but you have to do.

But Elizabeth isn't treating Paige like an adult at all. She's treating her like a child she can punish for breaking curfew. There's a general sense here that Paige is a spoiled middle-class American kid who needs to stop being a brat. But she's not asking for new clothes or to go to parties. She's dealing with the knowledge that her parents are involved in some very scary stuff that runs contrary to every value Paige has. Elizabeth isn't trying to protect her. That might be what she believes but it's not how she's behaving. Philip always wanted Paige removed from their world and Elizabeth always wanted Paige to be a part of it. Now she has her chance and she gets to devote Paige to the cause just like she told Philip she wanted to. 

Elizabeth DOESN'T want Paige to take responsibility for her actions. That's the whole point. Paige took responsibility when she told Pastor Tim. Elizabeth wants Paige to behave like a scared child and not to think or question. To do whatever Elizabeth tells her to. She can't force Philip to stop going to est or to stop caring about Martha, because Philip is an adult. But Paige is her daughter and she can damn well force her to do what she says. 

Add me to the list of people who don't think Martha's pregnant. It's so soapy and this show doesn't do soapy. I don't think she's dead, mostly because everyone seems to like Alison Wright. Also I'm missing William. I hope he comes back. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

She did kill her.  Elizabeth is not sloppy, it just took a while for her to bleed out.

I have no doubt Elizabeth killed her.  Lisa was threatening to turn them both in.  There was no other way that was going to end. 

[AliShibaz]

26 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I have no doubt Elizabeth killed her.  Lisa was threatening to turn them both in.  There was no other way that was going to end. 

Besides, it seems to me that Lisa's usefulness had largely eroded since that engineer who was working with Nina (the one working on "stealth fighters") no longer seemed to need that info any more. Of course, I could be completely wrong about that. But we haven't seen E needing to work Lisa in a very long time. And just look at the result. Lisa's family is almost in ruins. I wonder if any of that is due to E's neglect.

I still very much want to see E give some nasty payback to Maurice. He really deserves that. He has been very nasty to Lisa and he tried to push around E as well. I would love to see him try to push around E now. She would give him a very nasty surprise.

Is it possible that Maurice was somehow involved in this controversy about E's bloody neck? Could it be possible that he was actually at home? Or that he had snuck into the home while Lisa was drunk and passed out?

[gwhh]

47 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I have no doubt Elizabeth killed her.  Lisa was threatening to turn them both in.  There was no other way that was going to end. 

Plus she was having a really BAD day!  A little justified murder in the line of duty and taking out one of the weak in her life people is just what the doctor ordered. 

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Just as an aside, as I never knew this until it was pointed out to me, DefCon4 is the second lowest of five alert levels.  DefCon1 is the worst, although that just doesn't sound as menacing.

oops, misread the definition - which I actually looked at before I posted. Oh well, it's been that kind of day.

[Darren]

9 hours ago, Superpole2000 said:

This is one time I wish this show had the budget of a blockbuster movie, just so we could follow Martha's trip around the world. I would find that incredibly interesting.

The overall effect of this episode was excellent. Nevertheless, I cringed at how Elizabeth was once again written to be a moron when handling her own husband. Everything she said set him off, and someone as clever as her should have learned by now what not to do.

Elizabeth is clever in some ways, sure. Absolutely brilliant in others. But emotionally and relationally, especially as it pertains to her own personal life, she's stunted and suffers from tunnel vision. She misses stuff when it comes to people's motivations all the time. That's partly what makes her so fascinating. She's a fish out of water in "self-actualized" 1980s America, unlike Philip.

That's something the show gets really right about Elizabeth's character. You can teach an agent to be fluent in English even though they grew up speaking Russian. You can work them till their accent matches the natives. You can teach them to use whatever means necessary to manipulate people. And you can certainly teach them facts about a foreign society and its system of governance.

What you can't do is erase the subconscious structure that arises from decades of imprinting in a collectivist culture - where individualism is beaten out of you from Day 1. Especially in Elizabeth's case, where she had a mother who was so single-minded and do-your-duty-and-shut-up-about-it-already about almost everything.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Darren

[AliShibaz]

35 minutes ago, Darren said:

Elizabeth is clever in some ways, sure. Absolutely brilliant in others. But emotionally and relationally, especially as it pertains to her own personal life, she's stunted and suffers from tunnel vision. She misses stuff when it comes to people's motivations all the time. That's partly what makes her so fascinating. She's a fish out of water in "self-actualized" 1980s America, unlike Philip.

This is truly an excellent point!

When you consider all the world-beating training that she has had in various disciplines - such as hand-to-hand combat and trailing people and other things like that, she is portrayed to be one of the top women in all the world in those areas. When she was training Hans how to follow people without being observed and being able to report almost all the details of what she saw - kind of like a photographic memory, the audience surely must have appreciated just what an incredible skill she had. I know that I surely did.

However, despite all the training she has been given in so many skills, she has never been trained or coached in how to maintain a successful marriage and that seems so unfortunate to me because surely that is an extremely important component to her job. P & E must be able to get along well together if they are going to work well together.

Just consider that E has this kind of dagger regarding (Oh darn! I forget her name! But she is the mother of Phillip's son and E didn't even know P at the time that he fathered that child. So, logically (although surely logic has nothing to do with it), it just makes no sense for E to be so upset and hurt about the fact that P had intimate relations with that woman (again ... before E ever even knew of P). By the same token, when E pushes P's buttons, he pushes right back shouting at her about Gregory. I would have expected that a husband and wife team in their business would have surely been trained how to put shit like that behind them and never endanger their missions by getting so angry with each other about (excuse me for labeling these things as "trivial" matters - but that's the way it appears to me).

I suppose I can understand why someone in a marriage would feel angry at their partner if they learned that some time before they ever even met their partner, they had an intimate relationship with someone else. But, my point is that is not cheating. I can easily understand the problem if one partner cheats on the other. But given these things happened when one partner had never even met the other, then it's really not cheating. So, maybe P & E could truly benefit from some training like EST (although maybe not exactly EST) but something that would train them how to let go of shit that really does not matter and put it behind them and go forward with their missions.

Edited May 7, 2016 by AliShibaz

[hellmouse]

On 5/5/2016 at 3:49 PM, crashdown said:

Philip was able to take care of Elizabeth physically in that scene, in a way that he hadn't been able to take care of her emotionally before because of his own wallowing.  I liked it a lot--it felt very real to me.  As for EPCOT, I think that was a hugely surprising line, given everything, and it showed me how much Elizabeth's rant against the Americanism of EST was really her attempt to convince herself of something that she didn't entirely feel.  What's more excessively American than EPCOT?  Elizabeth might as well have said, "Let's just be completely American for awhile, for fun and relaxation."  She's changing, much as she tries to pretend to herself that she isn't.

I thought the line about EPCOT was almost like a truce offering from Elizabeth to Philip. They are exhausted physically and emotionally and have had a huge fight. Philip looked relieved and almost on the verge of tears when Gabriel said they would get a break - for as long as they need. His body seemed to sag in on itself, as if didn't have to hold himself rigid to deal with whatever else would be thrown at them. Elizabeth just looked dazed, and Philip seemed to be looking at her to see what her reaction would be. Would she be insulted to be told to take a break? Would she refuse? How would she react?

In the car, he says "now we'll be travel agents" and again waits and watches for her reaction. She waited a long time, kind of coming out of her daze, and it wouldn't have surprised me if she said something cold or resentful, or ignored him, but she didn't. She engaged with Philip. Suggesting EPCOT felt like a way for Elizabeth to say that she didn't want to fight, and she accepted needing a break, and even make a kind of dark joke, since they both know the original reason for the EPCOT plan. It felt like way to say 'we're okay, let's not fight', without saying those words. Of course it doesn't resolve the underlying issues, but it does allow them to make their way back to each other in the relationship, which they both want.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, stagmania said:

just because Phillip's personality lends itself to appearing "softer" on occasion doesn't mean that his core beliefs about family, duty and respect differ much from hers. We saw as much in his initial reaction to Paige getting involved with the church.

Yes, Elizabeth's speech basically was just a louder, stricter variation of exactly what Philip said to her after their first meeting with Pastor Tim. He explained that they had to think about what Pastor Tim wanted now (not her own feelings) and that she had to play on his desire to keep her happy and remember that if Pastor Tim got upset he would turn on them. There's no conflict on that score between Elizabeth and Philip. He was more gentle in that early scene because both of them thought it best to start that way. But it's not like Philip hasn't spoken to Paige sternly himself. Philip's better at being reasonable in talking to people so that's more natural to him, but Elizabeth is sometimes gentle too. Gentle wasn't working.

 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I get the feeling that not only is Young Hee doomed, but her entire family is as well.

And that doesn't mean they're all going to die. She could just destroy their relationships or bring them grief.

2 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

But Elizabeth isn't treating Paige like an adult at all. She's treating her like a child she can punish for breaking curfew.

But punishing someone for breaking curfew is making up an arbitrary thing they have to do/can't do to punish them and make them not disobey you again. This is getting Paige to understand her actual situation. Running Pastor Tim isn't about the Cause or the Mission. Paige isn't any more recruited by the KGB by this than she was before. This is about keeping her parents out of prison/alive and her and Henry in the US/out of foster care. Paige does not want her parents to go to jail, but at the moment she thinks she can have that without having to do anything for it. She's wrong.

2 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

Paige took responsibility when she told Pastor Tim.

I don't see how that's taking responsibility for her actions. It seems more like just reaching out for comfort in the moment and not thinking beyond that. Paige has been pretty clear about how this was supposed to work. She wanted to tell Pastor Tim about her parents and have him not do anything she didn't want him to do with that information, which included telling his wife--and could include telling more people. Paige is free to question Elizabeth or tell anyone she wants, but the responsibility doesn't just end there. There's consequences to anybody she tells. Like if she told Stan she'd have to be prepared to no longer have parents. If she tells Pastor Tim she has to be prepared to either not have parents or to make sure Pastor Tim doesn't tell anyone else. She seems to want the results of the latter.

 

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

Could it be possible that he was actually at home? Or that he had snuck into the home while Lisa was drunk and passed out?

He's in Florida according to Lisa, so I take that as a given. One could just as easily say a burglar broke in right after Elizabeth took her down and she had to fight him off!

 

21 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

However, despite all the training she has been given in so many skills, she has never been trained or coached in how to maintain a successful marriage

I was thinking today after talking about Martha and Gregory that this is a big difference between those two relationships as well. Elizabeth had an ongoing relationship with Gregory for like 13 years, but it was never one where they were together for long periods of time. Philip and Martha had to spend a lot more ordinary time together where he listened to stories about her past or read a book while she talked to her mother on the phone. She knew about his toupee. When he had to fake a fight he knew he could go for hair in the sink and calls with her mother--all those little irritations you get from that kind of time.It wasn't a grand romance like Elizabeth/Gregory, but it was in some ways much more of a nuts and bolts relationship. Elizabeth's relationship with Gregory seemed, in fact, to be about keeping a lot of that daily stuff out--he's still the guy she smokes a joint with.

Of course, this also makes me think about Philip, who was raised in the same collectivist society. Was his family just not as kooky as Elizabeth's mother? Did he have no family and therefore grow up thinking of himself more as an individual? Is he just more open to understanding other points of view?

30 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

I can easily understand the problem if one partner cheats on the other. But given these things happened when one partner had never even met the other, then it's really not cheating. So, maybe P & E could truly benefit from some training like EST (although maybe not exactly EST) but something that would train them how to let go of shit that really does not matter and put it behind them and go forward with their missions.

But then, this sort of thing wasn't an issue for most of their marriage. The trouble was when they fell in love, and then these things were important. I think Elizabeth knows it's not cheating that Philip had a girlfriend before he met her, but she probably hates that he has a child with someone else (she doesn't want any other woman having that) and when she's angry and insecure it seems to connect with how betrayed she felt when he slept with her when they were together. (And of course she's not going to bring up the stuff that was going on at that time between them on her end...) Elizabeth was actually supportive about his son when he found out about it, but when she's focused on him caring for people that aren't her...that kid and his mom (Irina) are going to pop into her head.

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, AliShibaz said:

This is truly an excellent point!

When you consider all the world-beating training that she has had in various disciplines - such as hand-to-hand combat and trailing people and other things like that, she is portrayed to be one of the top women in all the world in those areas. When she was training Hans how to follow people without being observed and being able to report almost all the details of what she saw - kind of like a photographic memory, the audience surely must have appreciated just what an incredible skill she had. I know that I surely did.

However, despite all the training she has been given in so many skills, she has never been trained or coached in how to maintain a successful marriage and that seems so unfortunate to me because surely that is an extremely important component to her job. P & E must be able to get along well together if they are going to work well together.

Just consider that E has this kind of dagger regarding (Oh darn! I forget her name! But she is the mother of Phillip's son and E didn't even know P at the time that he fathered that child. So, logically (although surely logic has nothing to do with it), it just makes no sense for E to be so upset and hurt about the fact that P had intimate relations with that woman (again ... before E ever even knew of P). By the same token, when E pushes P's buttons, he pushes right back shouting at her about Gregory. I would have expected that a husband and wife team in their business would have surely been trained how to put shit like that behind them and never endanger their missions by getting so angry with each other about (excuse me for labeling these things as "trivial" matters - but that's the way it appears to me).

I suppose I can understand why someone in a marriage would feel angry at their partner if they learned that some time before they ever even met their partner, they had an intimate relationship with someone else. But, my point is that is not cheating. I can easily understand the problem if one partner cheats on the other. But given these things happened when one partner had never even met the other, then it's really not cheating. So, maybe P & E could truly benefit from some training like EST (although maybe not exactly EST) but something that would train them how to let go of shit that really does not matter and put it behind them and go forward with their missions.

It wasn't exactly cheating, no, but if I'm remembering right, it was a pretty big betrayal. Philip slept with *what WAS her name??* in the old days, but then he did it again while things were starting to change between him and Elizabeth. And then he agreed to be in a real marriage with her, but lied about sleeping with the old girlfriend. (Didn't Claudia tell her?) Toss in the fact that Philip found out Elizabeth had told the KGB he liked the US, Gregory, and Martha AFTER the whole thing with Timochev, and you get lots of trouble. The issue back then was a severe break in trust. The things Philip and Elizabeth cope with are extraordinary because of the show's premise, but the way they interact is a metaphor for the intricacies of marriage. For them, betrayal and cheating look different than for regular people, but the feelings of it are the same. I don't think you could train that out of anyone. That's part of the universal human experience. 

ETA: Irina! That was her name!

Edited May 7, 2016 by madam magpie

[scartact]

4 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

But Elizabeth isn't treating Paige like an adult at all. She's treating her like a child she can punish for breaking curfew. There's a general sense here that Paige is a spoiled middle-class American kid who needs to stop being a brat. But she's not asking for new clothes or to go to parties. She's dealing with the knowledge that her parents are involved in some very scary stuff that runs contrary to every value Paige has. Elizabeth isn't trying to protect her. That might be what she believes but it's not how she's behaving. Philip always wanted Paige removed from their world and Elizabeth always wanted Paige to be a part of it. Now she has her chance and she gets to devote Paige to the cause just like she told Philip she wanted to. 

Elizabeth DOESN'T want Paige to take responsibility for her actions. That's the whole point. Paige took responsibility when she told Pastor Tim. Elizabeth wants Paige to behave like a scared child and not to think or question. To do whatever Elizabeth tells her to. She can't force Philip to stop going to est or to stop caring about Martha, because Philip is an adult. But Paige is her daughter and she can damn well force her to do what she says.

I personally don't view Paige as a spoiled middle-class American kid, but I do think that when she asks for the truth, she doesn't realize that truth would come with a heavy amount of responsibilities. It isn't just knowledge that her parents are involved in incredibly risky and dangerous stuff (she doesn't even really know the full extent of this), it's also that if this very information gets out in any way whatsoever, then it actually could completely destroy their entire family and life as they know it. Philip and Elizabeth explicitly told Paige she absolutely could not tell anybody; and yet, in her moment of anguish, she reached out for comfort and told the one person they would have never wanted her to tell.

Frankly, I actually don't blame her for reaching out for comfort because a lot was hefted onto her and her sense of identity and family and self was completely reconstructed and re-branded into something she never would have ever expected. However, her actions do have very real consequences, and Elizabeth's right that Paige had a hand in creating this mess and now they all have to work together to deal with it. Because of this, I just don't see how Elizabeth doesn't want Paige to take responsibilities for her actions.

The point of Elizabeth's outburst to Paige was that she can't just assume their problems will go on vacation while she takes a break because she feels emotionally unavailable. And this is also where I definitely understand @Darren's reading of Elizabeth on the first page of this thread and how we often forget that collectivist cultural upbringing heavily influences Elizabeth in ways that individualism would completely influence Paige (and this to me is a little bit of the heart of this specific conflict, because what sets Elizabeth off is that Paige is "precious" about her feelings). In fact, if this is also about Elizabeth denying Paige the ability to be accountable to Paige's own personal values and morals, then I think this even further reflects that cultural divide.

[Christina]

The article posted a bit above (which I can't quote without getting a script error unless I turn my ad-blocker on - boo) said that Matthew Rhys directed this episode. I like those little fun facts, and think he did a great job.

I've been expecting Martha to commit suicide for several episodes now. I thought she would do it when she found about Clark not being Clark at the end of last season, and again when she was prescribed the Prozac(?) and was shown drinking with it after Clark stood her up. I never thought she would get on that plane. I guess it could still happen, or have happened during the 7 month jump and Phillip doesn't know it yet, but if she doesn't/hasn't, I hope we don't see her telling all the secrets she knows to the KGB, but instead become a patriot again. I would kind of like to see her somehow get info back to the CIA, maybe by running into Gaad on his trek to India, and implicating Pastor Tim as the bad guy. Yeah, I like that idea, and refuse to let facts interfere with my new conspiracy theory.

[AllyB]

19 hours ago, ahpny said:

Exactly. How, from Stan’s comment alone, could Philip have any assurance that the nebulous “troubles” Stan referenced had anything to do with Martha? The FBI is big place with lots of things going on all at once. Philip knows nothing more than that the timing and characterization of the “troubles” described by Stan fits. It‘s merely a reasonable hypothesis on Philip’s part. Seasoned spies would never accept this as conclusive or reliable.

I assumed from that, that the KGB knew all about Martha and Clark's apartments being turned over during the last 2 days. But as Stan said the last 3 days at work were a disaster. That meant that the FBI was onto Martha as soon as Philip brought her in and not because he brought her in. Meaning that she had been under a huge amount of suspicion before Philip's unilateral decision to remove her.

[DrSpaceman73]

I am a bit surprised Phillip was so broken up over Martha leaving.  I can understand the compassion just for them spending so much time together, wanting her to be safe, but I never got the impression he really was in love with her or had a connection on that level.  He always seemed to just treat her as an asset and not much else

 

The time jump was odd.  This seemed like a season ending episode.  

 

So the FBI how has Clark/Phillips fingerprints on file.  How long until Stan realizes who those prints belong to?  

 

I was expecting Martha to be killed after getting on the plane or learning the plane crashed.  I don't trust anything about her fate and wouldn't assume anything either until we see her again, regardless of the 7 month time jump.  The whole embassy and everyone could be lying to them about her

 

Still not really clear about what Elizabeth's on related goal is with the Korean woman.  Infiltrating Mary K with Russian spies to get their beauty secrets and behind the scenes info on how to make things big and pink like their Cadillacs.  

[DrSpaceman73]

On May 5, 2016 at 11:46 PM, crgirl412 said:

Why was there a sketch of Tim McGraw in the movie theater??  Go back an re-watch them walking out of their theater.  It looks just like him!!! 

Philip went to the cemetery to visit Gene's grave!  He is losing it for sure in the KGB world but just becoming more human in the real world.  Elizabeth would be so enraged.

Philip is still seeing Kimmie since he passed a tape to Gabriel in that bar. 

It was very touching to see Philip pressuring Gabriel to contacting Martha's parents sooner than later.

There were so many times this episode where I wanted to tell Gabriel that it's all for not and in few years the USSR won't even exist. 

 

The fact the USSR won't exist soon and of course they don't know it, no one did, is one thing I am looking forward to in this show.  I hope the timeline continues for them to deal with that scenario and we see what happens to Phillip and Elizabeth, if they are still around, at that time.  

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I am a bit surprised Phillip was so broken up over Martha leaving.  I can understand the compassion just for them spending so much time together, wanting her to be safe, but I never got the impression he really was in love with her or had a connection on that level.  He always seemed to just treat her as an asset and not much else

I think Philip made it clear it isn't about him being in love with her (not that Elizabeth believes that). He has a connection to her that's more about her being his asset and a connection to her that's non-romantic but still there.

20 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I was expecting Martha to be killed after getting on the plane or learning the plane crashed.  I don't trust anything about her fate and wouldn't assume anything either until we see her again, regardless of the 7 month time jump.  The whole embassy and everyone could be lying to them about her

The embassy isn't just lying to Philip if that were the case, they're lying to each other for really no reason.

[DrSpaceman73]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Philip made it clear it isn't about him being in love with her (not that Elizabeth believes that). He has a connection to her that's more about her being his asset and a connection to her that's non-romantic but still there.

The embassy isn't just lying to Philip if that were the case, they're lying to each other for really no reason.

 

I guess what I should have said is whether it's a romantic connection or just more like a brother-sister connection, I never really saw that or got that impression from Phillip about Martha until he acted this way this episode or brought it up here.  It makes sense, it just surprised me a bit based on their past interactions.  

 

We really only saw two people in the embassy talk about Martha.  Still wouldn't surprise me if the woman at the embassy was lying.  There were obviously some things being hidden with the embassy earlier in the season

[madam magpie]

19 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

I guess what I should have said is whether it's a romantic connection or just more like a brother-sister connection, I never really saw that or got that impression from Phillip about Martha until he acted this way this episode or brought it up here.  It makes sense, it just surprised me a bit based on their past interactions.  

I don't think it's romantic or brother/sister. People in other threads have described the way Philip feels about Martha as the way you'd feel about a dog: she's helpless, he's responsible for her, he feels a very strong obligation to look for her. It's also how you might feel about a child (who isn't yours). I think that's appropriate. I agree that he doesn't love Martha, but he does feel responsible for her and that he's ruined her life. (Which he probably has.)

My mom accidentally lost the neighbor's dog once when she was pet sitting. She was devasted, in tears, etc. She looked everywhere, sat outside with food for hours. Her guilt was overwhelming, and she was a wreck. That lasted the whole two days until the dog found its way home. That's how Philip seems to feel about Martha.

Edited May 7, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I guess what I should have said is whether it's a romantic connection or just more like a brother-sister connection, I never really saw that or got that impression from Phillip about Martha until he acted this way this episode or brought it up here.  It makes sense, it just surprised me a bit based on their past interactions.  

I didn't even really see it as a brother/sister connection because he was still lying to her. They were never really equals. I thought it was more just that they'd been through a lot with Philip's lies slowly being uncovered and Martha stepping up to handle each one and finally going out with dignity and impressing him with that. So on the one hand there's this terrible guilt at how he used and manipulated her and really ruined her life and took everything from her, but I think there's also a real respect for how she handled it that raises it above mere pity. Which I think is even more threatening to Elizabeth. It's what makes it feel like more to her, or one of the reasons. And I think that also makes him overly defensive of her, even when Elizabeth's trying to be nice about her.

59 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

We really only saw two people in the embassy talk about Martha.  Still wouldn't surprise me if the woman at the embassy was lying.  There were obviously some things being hidden with the embassy earlier in the season

But how much do we need? We saw Arkady call a meeting about getting Martha out with Tatiana and Oleg, then later saw Oleg and Tatiana discussing it, then Oleg coming in to report from someone else that she was on her way. I don't think there were any meetings there at all about Robert's wife, for instance. Probably just the baby.

[gwhh]

I remember talking in elementary school about David Copperfield and the statue of liberty.  We decide he just used real magic to make it display. 

I think spending more time at the church with pastor Tim and wife would be a good tactical move.  But more Jesus factor in the long run would make Page MORE likely to turn her parents in.  At some point the pressure will get to her and she will be happy its over and they can start over again as a family.  We have all self sabotage hard situation so we can be done with them and than start over.  Don't forget the FBI right across the street to make that happen. 

 

How is the KGB going to tell Martha family that she in the Soviet Union  and is a traitor to the USA!  I mean the FBI going to have her parents under surveillance forever!  They may even buy the house across the street from them like they did with FBI traitor Robert Hanson.  Is an KGB agent going to show up and say "Hi, I am from the KGB and I have information about your daughter."

I think E&P problem with sex.  Is you can enjoy it with others.  But no emotional attachments.  That is saved for us!  Remember, when she asked Martha about how Phillip nailed her.  She wanted to make sure he was not giving her any thing extra that he was not giving her.  And how she asked him to nail her like he did Martha and did not like it at all.  Physical love OK.  Emotional and or mental love for each other! 

I love the Martha having Phillip kid story idea! 

Did every one else notice that Page looked awful at the end of the show and everyone else look great?!?!?

 

Edited May 7, 2016 by gwhh

[jjj]

I'd expect Pastor Tim and Alice to have less time for Paige with their own child about to appear; it's not like Paige is an abandoned child they need to keep track of, and clearly Paige is not clinging to them at all, as she had done in the beginning of this season (i.e., seven months and three weeks ago). 

[queenanne]

On May 5, 2016 at 11:59 PM, Umbelina said:

The more I watched Paige tonight, the more I thought "That teenager is more likely to turn them in than anyone on the show."

I know, I know, but that girl is pissed, and hormonal, and hates what she's being forced to do, and hon?  It's only going to get worse.  Stan's right across the street after all, one tantrum is all it would take.

It's interesting, isn't it?  We've got threads percolating that Philip could continue to go nuts on Est and be the one who defects to Stan; we've got Paige, it could go lots of different ways.

On May 6, 2016 at 0:02 PM, madam magpie said:

It could been seen as semi condescending to Philip, I guess, but not to Martha. In Elizabeth's mind, she was acknowledging what was great and attractive about this woman she believes Philip loves and is mourning. 

Most definitely she's wrong, but it's not because she criticized Martha for being simple. She's wrong because her husband isn't remotely in love with this other woman and is completely devoted to her. But Elizabeth cannot grasp that. She just can't. It's so foreign and incomprehensible to her, so she keeps trying to figure it out.

For Philip, the idea that he's in love with Martha and not Elizabeth, or that he prefers Martha, is equally incomprehensible. He was stunned when she said that last week. In his state of mourning and guilt, though, he missed Elizabeth's point (which was admittedly buried in subtext) and got defensive on Matha's behalf. To me, it looked like a gross misunderstanding born from the insecurity and pain of two broken people. That's an easy way to slip into a fight.

ETA: I do think Elizabeth believes she's praising Martha. Elizabeth has come to see Martha mostly positively, I think. And she seems to be trying to compare Martha and Gregory because that's the only context for this situation that she can understand. She's wrong about that too, of course, because she did feel something like love for Gregory, and at the time, she did prefer him to Philip. I don't think Philip feels that for Martha at all. He feels an obligation to her as something he needs to take care of; her problems are his creation so he feels responsible. But I don't think he loves her. So the way Elizabeth is trying to make sense of this makes no sense to him, and in that moment, he didn't have the patience or headspace to figure her out. (Which he's usually very good at.)

I think Elizabeth does think she's praising Martha for sucking it up and being a stoic, lol.  What's more likely than that to appeal to Elizabeth?  Really interested to see how this all plays out for the rest of the season.

[Ina123]

Lisa told E that Maurice is in Florida. The family is going to Florida. Do you think there will be a side trip in Florida to "take care of" Maurice?

[AliShibaz]

28 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

Lisa told E that Maurice is in Florida. The family is going to Florida. Do you think there will be a side trip in Florida to "take care of" Maurice?

Oh. I wish! I wish! From your lips to God's ears!

I cannot think of anyone who deserves a surprise visit from Elizabeth more than Maurice the Thug. Is it fair for me to call him, "Thugman Maurice"?

I forget if we ever saw any evidence of Maurice putting his hands on a lady. But I do seem to recall that we definitely got the impression that he was happy to "push around" women - whether figuratively or literally. I hated this brute and bully from the moment I first laid eyes on him. For those of you who may not remember, he was continually trying to impose his will (or "push around") both his wife and Elizabeth from the moment we first laid eyes on him until the last moment we saw him. I really despised this S.O.B. --- "Thru and thru"!

[Tetraneutron]

11 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

 

The fact the USSR won't exist soon and of course they don't know it, no one did, is one thing I am looking forward to in this show.  I hope the timeline continues for them to deal with that scenario and we see what happens to Phillip and Elizabeth, if they are still around, at that time.  

We have about 8 years until that happens. I don't see how they can do it. In a way the dramatic tension that the characters don't know that all the work they're doing is for nothing makes it more exciting. 

[Darren]

Wow! Think Paige is in a pickle? Read this article about the real-life situation on which the Americans is based. Two brothers, raised to believe they were Canadians, later becoming naturalized American citizens, end up with a rude awakening regarding their parents and the family's true identity:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

Edited May 8, 2016 by Darren

[Darren]

59 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

We have about 8 years until that happens. I don't see how they can do it. In a way the dramatic tension that the characters don't know that all the work they're doing is for nothing makes it more exciting. 

I actually do think the show will somehow end with the collapse of the Soviet Union - even if it's only a final flash forward, when we get to see the reactions of Philip and Elizabeth. That potential scene is too juicy to pass up. Especially Elizabeth's reaction. I want, no... better put, I NEED to see that.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Darren

[jjj]

40 minutes ago, Darren said:

 Read this article about the real-life situation on which the Americans is based.

Yes, this is also discussed over in the "Secret Programs and Real Life Spies" thread!  Plus other articles!

Edited May 8, 2016 by jjj

[Darren]

2 minutes ago, jjj said:

Yes, this is also discussed over in the "Secret Programs and Real Life Spies" thread!  Plus other articles!

Yup. I just enjoyed reading new article on the subject. 

[AliShibaz]

2 hours ago, Darren said:

I actually do think the show will somehow end with the collapse of the Soviet Union - even if it's only a final flash forward, when we get to see the reactions of Philip and Elizabeth. That potential scene is too juicy to pass up. Especially Elizabeth's reaction. I want, no... better put, I NEED to see that.

Do you think that will be a hugely important event to Elizabeth?

I ask because she originally came from Russia. I may easily be wrong about this, but from what I have gathered from history, the USSR was largely Russia plus a collection of "buffer countries" (like Poland, Chzeckslvakidon'tknowhowtospellthis, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc.). Stalin forcibly took over those countries and forced them to join this "USSR" but his main reason for doing this was to protect Russia from another war with the West. Am I very wrong about this? That is just my own conclusion from what happened at the end of WW2.

I would guess that Elizabeth's real love for the "Motherland" means love for "Russia" and if Russia is not in real danger of being the victim of some Western powers, I would guess she may not be too broken up about that. In fact, she may well decide to talk it over with P and take their family and either move back to Russia (doubtful) or to stay in the USA and seek immunity. Does that seem at all likely? I am very willing to admit it could be a very unrealistic idea. But I've always gotten the idea that E was far more loyal to Russa than she was to this USSR. E was alive during the war with Germany, wasn't she? If so, there was never any USSR at that time. So maybe it will depend on her view of why the USSR came into being? I don't recall ever hearing her views on that subject. Does anyone else know?

Edited May 8, 2016 by AliShibaz

[madam magpie]

11 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Do you think that will be a hugely important event to Elizabeth?

I ask because she originally came from Russia. I may easily be wrong about this, but from what I have gathered from history, the USSR was largely Russia plus a collection of "buffer countries" (like Poland, Chzeckslvakidon'tknowhowtospellthis, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc.). Stalin forcibly took over those countries and forced them to join this "USSR" but his main reason for doing this was to protect Russia from another war with the West. Am I very wrong about this? That is just my own conclusion from what happened at the end of WW2.

I would guess that Elizabeth's real love for the "Motherland" means love for "Russia" and if Russia is not in real danger of being the victim of some Western powers, I would guess she may not be too broken up about that. In fact, she may well decide to talk it over with P and take their family and either move back to Russia (doubtful) or to stay in the USA and seek immunity. Does that seem at all likely? I am very willing to admit it could be a very unrealistic idea. But I've always gotten the idea that E was far more loyal to Russa than she was to this USSR. E was alive during the war with Germany, wasn't she? If so, there was never any USSR at that time. So maybe it will depend on her view of why the USSR came into being? I don't recall ever hearing her views on that subject. Does anyone else know?

This is a fairly simplistic explanation of a very complex bit of history, but here goes: The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)  was (I believe) Russia, Ukraine, the Transcaucuses, and Byelorussia, which is actually where Elizabeth is from, I think (Smolensk?). Russia was the largest republic in the union. The Eastern bloc was a buffer zone of countries like Poland, Hungary, etc. that Stalin took over in Europe after WW2 to put space between the USSR and the West, making it harder for western countries to attack the Soviet Union.

The communist revolution predates Stalin and WW2, though. That began in 1917, when there were two uprisings. In the second one (the October Revolution) the communists, then called the Bolsheviks and led by Lenin, rose up in a coup against the Russian provisional govt, which had replaced the Russian monarchy after the first rebellion (called the February Revolution). It was a workers rebellion, based on the ideology of Karl Marx. There was a lot of violence and unrest, they seized power, killed the royal family, and took over. Stalin came to power in the 1920s after Lenin died and had a much more totalitarian vision for the USSR. Stalin was less "the proletariat should be running things as a collective and let's spread equality to the world" and more "I am the all-powerful leader and all will submit the the party or die." But he sold the former to the Soviet people.

Elizabeth's behavior as an agent of the KGB seems pretty Stalinist to me. You follow orders, you work for the good of the collective, you sacrifice so that everyone survives, you serve the Union, nothing is your own as an individual, etc. But her ideology always sounds more purely Marxist. She seems to still believe very strongly in the ideas of equality and collectivism that drove the original rebellion. She's against the elite, against excess, for equality of race and gender, etc. Marxist philosophy was "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" and the goal was to spread the ideas of communism slowly so that, over time, the working classes all over the world would see the value of a communist govt and a socialist economy. I think that's the cause she believes she's fighting for, and it's the cause many ordinary Soviet citizens thought their country was about. But it was not what Stalin and the Soviet leaders after him (until Gorbachev) were actually doing.

Elizabeth's reaction to the decline and eventual fall of communism would be fascinating, I think. She could go several ways, but I wonder if she'd completely crack when she comes to realize how indulgent, excessive, and classist the Soviet rulers were. I feel like Elizabeth might someday reject Stalinism and Soviet philosophy, but I'd be surprised if she ever became a capitalist.

Edited May 8, 2016 by madam magpie

[Dowel Jones]

It could be argued that Russia was essentially protecting itself after its Civil War ended, and it annexed the other SSRs as a buffer against the West, Great Britain more than anyone else.  Pretty much all world powers do this (including the US, with Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba for awhile, the Philippines, etc.) after establishing themselves.  It should be noted that the US landed ~3000 Marines in Vladivostok during the Russian Civil War, so perhaps they viewed us with some suspicion also. 

[JennyMominFL]

On 5/8/2016 at 3:51 AM, Dowel Jones said:

It could be argued that Russia was essentially protecting itself after its Civil War ended, and it annexed the other SSRs as a buffer against the West, Great Britain more than anyone else.  Pretty much all world powers do this (including the US, with Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba for awhile, the Philippines, etc.) after establishing themselves.  It should be noted that the US landed ~3000 Marines in Vladivostok during the Russian Civil War, so perhaps they viewed us with some suspicion also. 

 

 

Yes, Russia was constantly being invaded for about 150 years preceding WW2. I can sort of understand(but not necessarily agree with) why they felt they needed a buffer. Also. They viewed the Marshall plan as almost a direct attack against the. We didn't just do it out of the kindness of our hearts. If we had not helped West Germany and other areas, they may very well have become communists of their own free will. When you are starving and your cities are in ruins you will take help from anywhere.

 I think a lot of people are unaware that we tried to invade Russia from the east. We really wanted to control, or at least help Japan control a port on that coast.

Edited May 9, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[madam magpie]

7 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

It could be argued that Russia was essentially protecting itself after its Civil War ended, and it annexed the other SSRs as a buffer against the West, Great Britain more than anyone else.  Pretty much all world powers do this (including the US, with Guam, Puerto Rico, Cuba for awhile, the Philippines, etc.) after establishing themselves.  It should be noted that the US landed ~3000 Marines in Vladivostok during the Russian Civil War, so perhaps they viewed us with some suspicion also. 

When you say "annexed the other SSRs," do you mean Ukraine, etc.? Maybe. But places like Guam, Puerto Rico, Hawaii, etc. were more about imperialism than a buffer. Same with Soviet incursions into Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc. Taking over those places does little to protect the mother country against invasion, except establish spots around the world for military bases. The US has natural buffers in the two oceans, and it's bordered by two (mostly) friendly nations. We've never really needed to create a buffer zone. The Soviet Union was bordered by or very close to hostile nations, so the idea of creating a buffer zone does, in theory, make sense for them. But I think few people today would argue that the way Stalin did that (or even that the idea of creating a buffer at all) was OK. If I remember right, the Soviet Union, China, Vietnam, and Cuba all became communist of their own free will via their own internal revolutions. But Eastern Europe was forced into it. I think too that Lenin was against imperialism; wasn't he the one who called it "the highest form of capitalism"? But Stalin was a power-hungry dictator who saw things differently.

This morning, I found myself wondering if the illegals could or did vote. Elizabeth would TOTALLY be feeling the Bern right now. Ha!

Edited May 8, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I am very willing to admit it could be a very unrealistic idea. But I've always gotten the idea that E was far more loyal to Russa than she was to this USSR.

I get, if anything, the opposite impression, though that's probably not an accurate way to say it. She grew up in the Soviet Union and I don't think she'd have had any private thoughts about how she really only cared about Russia. Whatever the government was doing was what she supported, it seems, and she seems to be really focused on the idea that their philosophy should win. If the Union dissolves, the philosophy is losing. (It's like one little thing I remember reading in a review that said Elizabeth was like a piece of Soviet propaganda art and Philip was a charcoal sketch from a Chekhov story - iow, she seems Soviet, he seems Russian).

Speaking to a friend of mine who was living in East Germany when the wall came down, I get the impression it's hard to really even describe the huge affect this had on everyone, even people who were against Communism. In fact, she felt those people in a way almost had more problems in that they wouldn't allow themselves to admit that it was scary to have the structure they'd lived with forever was gone. It was traumatic for everyone. But she also spoke to the people she knew who really were true believers like Elizabeth and she said she's always thought of them in trying to imagine Elizabeth's reaction. Those people often had the advantage of being younger than Elizabeth so they could adjust better, but it was hard for them. I imagine it would be far harder for Elizabeth, especially news of any kind of corruption. It's Timoshev all over again.

I also read a book once by someone who was born in Moscow and came to the US in the 70s when she was a kid, but started returning to Russia in the late 80s. She was there when everything fell apart and there too she just talked about the shock and disbelief of having this thing fall apart.

Edited May 8, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Dowel Jones]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

But I think few people today would argue that the way Stalin did that (or even that the idea of creating a buffer at all) was OK.

I didn't mean to imply that it was OK just because the US annexed area in order to project its power or to strengthen its economic base.  It's just something powerful nations do.  With regard to the SSRs, I was referring to the other republics that were created by Russia in the years after the civil war, besides the original four that created the USSR.  I don't know the individual histories of them, so maybe they were already in Russia's orbit, rather than independent nations.

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 I get, if anything, the opposite impression, though that's probably not an accurate way to say it. She grew up in the Soviet Union and I don't think she'd have had any private thoughts about how she really only cared about Russia. 

I think it's probably a bit of both. Politically, she most definitely looks Soviet, communist really. But culturally, I see the Russian. I've been rewatching early seasons, and every time she and Philip do a shot of vodka, I chuckle. I don't know how culturally Russian the Byelorussians actually are or if they have their own unique cultural identity (like Ukrainians, for example), but in her flair for the dramatic, her vodka, her intense loyalty, her emotional stoicism, etc., I can see Russia in Elizabeth. It's subtle. I think that was part of the Soviet experience, to erase traditional cultural identities and replace them with Soviet ones, but I don't think they usually succeeded completely.

She also seems to really miss the familiarity of the homeland, as any expat probably does. There seems to be a lot of wistfulness in Elizabeth for the old country, the language, and so on. 

Edited May 8, 2016 by madam magpie

[Darren]

On 5/8/2016 at 9:50 PM, AliShibaz said:

Do you think that will be a hugely important event to Elizabeth?

I ask because she originally came from Russia. I may easily be wrong about this, but from what I have gathered from history, the USSR was largely Russia plus a collection of "buffer countries" (like Poland, Chzeckslvakidon'tknowhowtospellthis, Romania, Bulgaria, Ukraine, etc.). Stalin forcibly took over those countries and forced them to join this "USSR" but his main reason for doing this was to protect Russia from another war with the West. Am I very wrong about this? That is just my own conclusion from what happened at the end of WW2.

I would guess that Elizabeth's real love for the "Motherland" means love for "Russia" and if Russia is not in real danger of being the victim of some Western powers, I would guess she may not be too broken up about that. In fact, she may well decide to talk it over with P and take their family and either move back to Russia (doubtful) or to stay in the USA and seek immunity. Does that seem at all likely? I am very willing to admit it could be a very unrealistic idea. But I've always gotten the idea that E was far more loyal to Russa than she was to this USSR. E was alive during the war with Germany, wasn't she? If so, there was never any USSR at that time. So maybe it will depend on her view of why the USSR came into being? I don't recall ever hearing her views on that subject. Does anyone else know?

As others have hinted at, it's less about the collapse of a particular geographic alignment that's the issue, as it is the collapse of Communism. That's what Elizabeth has fought and killed for. She believes it (Communism) is a way of life that will free the world. She isn't generally being nationalistic in her behavior. She legitimately believes all human beings are best served - most justly and equitably served - by Communism. It's the collapse of THAT socio-political ideal that's her coming rude awakening.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Darren

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I think it's probably a bit of both. Politically, she most definitely looks Soviet, communist really. But culturally, I see the Russian.

Oh, definitely. I realized after I wrote that that this part was wrong. I'm sure she considers Russia the superior of all the countries--and of course that's her home so it's the one she has emotional attachments to in terms of culture etc. But politically I think she would definitely care about the USSR as an entity.

I would actually be surprised if she had a strong feeling of herself as Belorussian rather than Russian. Like, I would imagine Elizabeth would be happy it's part of Russia now.

[jjj]

The scene in the cemetery struck me as extremely risky -- and the fact that Philip knew where Gene's marker was located means that he had been there previously.  He looked an awful lot like "Clark" and the drawing the FBI has.  Even if the KGB knew the location of the grave, Gabriel would not tell it to Philip.  We never saw a funeral for Gene, correct?  I seem to remember Martha at a funeral, but maybe I am thinking about a different show. 

[RedHawk]

It's not hard to find a gravesite when you know the full name. Phillip could have looked up an obit and seen the cemetery name, then gone to the office for directions to the specific grave location. 

[AliShibaz]

14 hours ago, madam magpie said:

This is a fairly simplistic explanation of a very complex bit of history, but here goes: The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)  was (I believe) Russia, Ukraine, the Transcaucuses, and Byelorussia, which is actually where Elizabeth is from, I think (Smolensk?). Russia was the largest republic in the union. The Eastern bloc was a buffer zone of countries like Poland, Hungary, etc. that Stalin took over in Europe after WW2 to put space between the USSR and the West, making it harder for western countries to attack the Soviet Union.

I didn't find your explanation at all simplistic and I thank you for helping me to better understand. I agree that it would be fascinating to see her reaction to the dissolution of the USSR. I just wonder what the odds are that we will ever get to see that.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

It's not hard to find a gravesite when you know the full name. Phillip could have looked up an obit and seen the cemetery name, then gone to the office for directions to the specific grave location. 

Yeah, plus he went as an older man. I'd bet he fiund the grave in some way that didn't require talking to anybody in person and then went to an older grave for cover.

[jjj]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, plus he went as an older man. I'd bet he fiund the grave in some way that didn't require talking to anybody in person and then went to an older grave for cover.

I was just saying it was risky to appear near the grave looking so much like Clark (an older version of Clark); one of the scruffier disguises would make him less of a look-alike.  I realize the scene was for dramatic impact and showing Philip's guilt.  Just risky!  In the early 1980s, it was not easy to look up a new gravesite (three to four weeks old) without asking for directions, which would be another KGB-no-no, in Gabriel's eyes! 

It is tantalizing, how close the FBI has been to Philip and Elizabeth, getting those older sketches of them and the newer ones.  In my mind, someday Stan will be standing in front of a bulletin board looking at the various sketches and mugshots of Philip and Elizabeth, going, "*How* did I *miss* this?"  Just like Gaad and the marriage certificate.  Right under his nose, literally. 

[Stella Rose]

On 5/5/2016 at 11:21 PM, tennisgurl said:

Lots of emotions this episode. Rather more chilled out than the last few weeks, but a lot has been set into motion, especially with Elizabeth. Lady is not doing well. I often feel for Elizabeth, but she is really freaking scary. Both Philip and Elizabeth seemed to be fraying on the edges, but while Philip tries to seek some absolution for what happened with Martha, Elizabeth lashes out and gets violent. 

I loved watching Gabriel and Character Actress Margo Martindale complaining about those damn kids and how they do not know how good they have it. Being the handler of P + E really must be stressful.  

Poor Paige. 

I am convinced Tatiana made up the thing about her brother to get in with Oleg, for some reason. Is she some kind of internal affairs, looking for possible defectors? Do not trust her! 

7 months? What happened?!?! I must know!

Or is that "Super Sexy Dracula" and "Character Actress Margo Martindale"?   I swear that is all I see.  Mags Bennett and Drac having tea.

[shura]

8 hours ago, madam magpie said:

I think it's probably a bit of both. Politically, she most definitely looks Soviet, communist really. But culturally, I see the Russian. I've been rewatching early seasons, and every time she and Philip do a shot of vodka, I chuckle. I don't know how culturally Russian the Byelorussians actually are or if they have their own unique cultural identity (like Ukrainians, for example), but in her flair for the dramatic, her vodka, her intense loyalty, her emotional stoicism, etc., I can see Russia in Elizabeth. It's subtle. I think that was part of the Soviet experience, to erase traditional cultural identities and replace them with Soviet ones, but I don't think they usually succeeded completely.

I just want to point out that Smolensk is in fact in Russia, not in Belarus, and there is no reason to think that Elizabeth is Belorussian. 

[madam magpie]

58 minutes ago, shura said:

I just want to point out that Smolensk is in fact in Russia, not in Belarus, and there is no reason to think that Elizabeth is Belorussian. 

My understanding is that it once was part of the Byelorussian SSR, but is now a part of the Russian Federation. Isn't Byelorussia just what people used to call Belarus?

Byelorussian SSR

All the political and cultural ins and outs of how that came to be are way above my pay grade. I think (but can't swear) that the Smolensk Oblast (district) borders modern Belarus, though, so my guess is that the city/district changed hands at some point? What I also don't know is how different, culturally, people in that area were from strict Russians. Maybe not at all? There's a pretty huge cultural divide with Ukraine, though, which is why I wondered.

Edited May 9, 2016 by madam magpie

[gwhh]

  I don't think Elizabeth is a sociopath. I think she's a soldier and survivor, and she makes the decisions she does from that perspective.

 

I agree with the above statement. Elisabeth he a true patriot. She there to do a hard job for the nation she loves.  That asked her to do it. She a true believer in communist also. Even after all these years in the USA. 

 

 

In the Soviet Union. Russian was the offical language of the government. It was taught in all school to all students either as a first or 2nd language during soviet times. 

Edited May 9, 2016 by gwhh

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, madam magpie said:

All the political and cultural ins and outs of how that came to be are way above my pay grade. I think (but can't swear) that the Smolensk Oblast (district) borders modern Belarus, though, so my guess is that the city/district changed hands at some point? What I also don't know is how different, culturally, people in that area were from strict Russians. Maybe not at all? There's a pretty huge cultural divide with Ukraine, though, which is why I wondered.

I don't think there's as much of a cultural difference there as in Ukraine, but I'm not expert either way! It's my impression thought--please someone correct if I'm wrong--that Smolensk is a really important city to Russians--I think it's one of the oldest Russian cities. It was invaded in WWII and by Napoleon and is considered a "hero city." It does border it and was part of that republic in the USSR, but I think it's Russian and Elizabeth considers herself only that.

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think there's as much of a cultural difference there as in Ukraine, but I'm not expert either way! It's my impression thought--please someone correct if I'm wrong--that Smolensk is a really important city to Russians--I think it's one of the oldest Russian cities. It was invaded in WWII and by Napoleon and is considered a "hero city." It does border it and was part of that republic in the USSR, but I think it's Russian and Elizabeth considers herself only that.

Smolensk Oblast is also where the Katyn Massacre took place. Stalin's goons executed something like 20,000 Polish prisoners during WW2 and blamed it on the Nazis, though there was always lots of speculation that the Soviets did it. The whole truth only came out when the USSR was collapsing. That's actually the only reason I've heard of Smolensk. The largest mass grave was found in the Katyn Forest outside of the city.

Edited May 9, 2016 by madam magpie