S11.E13: Love Hurts

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

r maybe it forces all of us to really think about and rethink our opinions/impressions/reactions/ etc and be able to explain them better if/when asked?  I don't think that's such a bad thing.  Look at the exchange between you and AwesomO4000 above: very thoughtful and insightful posts on both sides (which, really weren't that far apart as it turns out, imo.)  And I enjoyed reading them!  So I'm not going to apologize for stirring the pot, when that's the result.  ymmv.

This is a community that shares opinions about a TV show with beloved and hated characters, thus there is inherent bias because so much of it is opinion and interpretation.  Some things are factual like what dialogue was spoken or what color shirt Dean or Sam were wearing or whether Cas has his wings or not.   I feel pretty confident in saying that everyone who posts here understands that already.  I don't see much value in pointing to a comment and saying "BIAS" because it isn't really going to alter strong opinions.  If there is a question about a comment ask for clarification.  I think bias in opinions is perfectly reasonable and acceptable and to a degree expected.  Biased opinions can be and often are thoughtful and reasonable and yet neither bias is measurably altered. YMMV 

ETA: @AwesomO4000 and me have had many a long thoughtful conversation about Sam and Dean long before now. As have many other commenters have had long thoughtful if strongly worded opinions. Us agreeing in this case doesn't really change our generally leanings though, I don't think.  

Edited October 31, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

59 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

This is a community that shares opinions about a TV show with beloved and hated characters, thus there is inherent bias because so much of it is opinion and interpretation.  Some things are factual like what dialogue was spoken or what color shirt Dean or Sam were wearing or whether Cas has his wings or not.   I feel pretty confident in saying that everyone who posts here understands that already.  I don't see much value in pointing to a comment and saying "BIAS" because it isn't really going to alter strong opinions.  If there is a question about a comment ask for clarification.  YMMV 

So what are you really saying?  (How is that asking for clarification?)  Did you just scold me because you disagree that personal biases should be addressed?  

I agree there is inherent bias in most comments.  As you said, it's mostly all opinion here.  I disagree that discussion about whether an opinion about an action (which is factual. ie. X happened) has no value if potential bias about the principle is not considered.   Speaking from personal experience, I have changed my (very strong) opinion when another comment pointed out Y & Z.  

I usually try to keep things light and fun.  I tend to lean heavily toward tongue-in-cheek.  There's enough crap out in the world that I figure my leisure activities should be something I enjoy - otherwise I've got better things to do with my time.  Earlier you stated you weren't trying to police anyone.  I apologize in advance if I'm wrong, but this comment felt an awful lot like policing to me.

Edited October 31, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
clarification and apology

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So what are you really saying?  (How is that asking for clarification?)  Did you just scold me because you disagree that personal biases should be addressed?  

It's my opinion that personal biases in this kind of commenting are not particularly problematic. Moreover, those perceived or actual biases do not necessarily inform every thought or comment someone makes. Presuming there is a bias at play on the part of one of the participants in the conversation, shifts the focus from the merits of the conversation to the merits of the participants. 

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I usually try to keep things light and fun.  I tend to lean heavily toward tongue-in-cheek.  There's enough crap out in the world that I figure my leisure activities should be something I enjoy - otherwise I've got better things to do with my time.  Earlier you stated you weren't trying to police anyone.  Well, this comment feels an awful lot like policing to me.

As a member of this community, I'm simply stating how it seems to me. Nothing more nothing less.  I'm not telling anyone what to do or not do.  No one  has anything to apologize for here.  I'm just saying what makes me a little uncomfortable here.

Edited October 31, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I gotta say for me only the source material itself can change my opinion on something. I like and hate characters and plots in shows I`ve never discussed with a single soul in my life. So commentary, biased or not, doesn`t sway me one way or the other. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It's my opinion that personal biases in this kind of commenting are not particularly problematic. Moreover, those perceived or actual biases do not necessarily inform every thought or comment someone makes. Presuming there is a bias at play on the part of one of the participants in the conversation, shifts the focus from the merits of the conversation to the merits of the participants. 

I disagree.  I think personal biases can be extremely problematic.  And if you will allow me, I will attempt to demonstrate.  I'll attempt to give a quick example, then I will explain a real life situation.

Quick Example: Let's say I really hated Charlie.  Really, really, really, just couldn't stand her.  (IRL, Mostly she just annoyed me, but for the sake of this example, imagine I absolutely loathed the character. )  So when she was killed, I make a comment like, "well, she deserved to die because after what she did, she was just too stupid to live."  Am I right?  Or isn't that just my bias showing?  Is it problematic?  Well, it would be to someone who really liked Charlie, wouldn't it?  And if you said, "Well, Ruler, you only said that because you never liked Charlie in the first place"... Gosh Darn, I'd have to agree with you.  

Long explanation: (True situation, btw).  I was on a different forum, different show, different characters.  Now, presumably, everyone should have been mature on this other board also, since these were grown women with whom I was conversing.  (Some much older than me.)  One favorite character did something that, imo (and in general consensus) that was particularly disgusting.  And the reason for doing this disgusting act was pretty flimsy (as couched as for 'the greater good') and self-serving.  There were just a select few members of that board who seemed to take personal offense when critiquing this beloved character's actions.  They simply didn't want to hear it.  They could not admit that maybe those of us who had a problem with this behavior might have a legitimate complaint.  They could not even admit that it was because they liked the character so much that they refused to even entertain the notion that perhaps what they did was not good.  There absolutely was a bias at play.  I was perfectly happy to keep the conversation grounded in merits and facts, but eventually, their personal bias for the character turned into personally attacking anyone (not just me) who disagreed with them.  Basically, they are the reason I don't watch that show any more.  I could have gotten past the action  - (the character actually atoned for their actions) but some of the board members' virulent defense of the character - no matter their flaws - turned me completely against said character.  (Because if that was the kind of 'loyalty' that character inspired, I was not interested in being a fan.) 

Now, perhaps you say it couldn't happen on this board.  

I hope you're right.  But then again, maybe it could.  

If you've never been exposed to that, then I hope you never are.  But I have been.  And so it makes me very wary when it appears that any criticism of any particular character results in more than one board member jumping to 'defend' a character or other member who does not need defending.  

[Sigh]  Moving on now.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

If you've never been exposed to that, then I hope you never are.  But I have been.  And so it makes me very wary when it appears that any criticism of any particular character results in more than one board member jumping to 'defend' a character or other member who does not need defending.  

It sucks to have difficult experiences in other forums. I have had similar experiences at other communities related to sports which is even MORE heated, so I understand that experience. I try to not jump to conclusions that a similar same situation will happen. I get the impression that you think folks here have agendas (which I could be wrong) and are trying to drive conversations into a particular viewpoint one way or another. I personally have not found that to be true. I think most just enjoy the camaraderie and civil discourse.

[MysteryGuest]

I think it's almost impossible to not have bias when discussing anything.  Yes, you can bend over backwards to try to be fair-minded, but in most cases, we all have our favorites and it absolutely colors our opinions.  I think we manage pretty well on this board to keep things civil.  There have been (and I'm sure will continue to be) numerous discussions about how each of us perceives Sam and Dean, who the writers like best, who gets to be the hero the most, etc., etc.  I also think most of us are pretty forthright about where our bias lies, so it's not really a secret to the other posters.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

well, she deserved to die because after what she did, she was just too stupid to live."  Am I right?  Or isn't that just my bias showing?  Is it problematic?  Well, it would be to someone who really liked Charlie, wouldn't it?  And if you said, "Well, Ruler, you only said that because you never liked Charlie in the first place"... Gosh Darn, I'd have to agree with you.  

To me that would be an opinion that would probably be hurtful but it's not a disallowed opinion nor do I think it implies a bias against Charlie nor against someone who likes Charlie. 

I read plenty of opinions about Dean for instance that I think are just plain wrong or maybe come from a place that perhaps someone doesn't see Dean in the same way that I do. I don't jump to the conclusion that the commenter is trying to harm ME personally because they think Dean is XYZ. If they hate Dean, they hate Dean.  It isn't going to change my opinion of Dean. And if they dislike Dean I don't presume every thought they have about Dean is supporting that bias. I just figure they don't see Dean the same way as me or see the narratives around Dean the way I do. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

To me that would be an opinion that would probably be hurtful but it's not a disallowed opinion nor do I think it implies a bias against Charlie nor against someone who likes Charlie. 

I read plenty of opinions about Dean for instance that I think are just plain wrong or maybe come from a place that perhaps someone doesn't see Dean in the same way that I do. I don't jump to the conclusion that the commenter is trying to harm ME personally because they think Dean is XYZ. If they hate Dean, they hate Dean.  It isn't going to change my opinion of Dean. And if they dislike Dean I don't presume every thought they have about Dean is supporting that bias. I just figure they don't see Dean the same way as me or see the narratives around Dean the way I do. 

Let me try this one more time, then I quit.  I didn't intend it to sound as if I thought any opinion was or should be disallowed.  (Although I have very recently felt that some felt MY opinion should be disallowed, so there's that.)  Nor did I mean to imply that I automatically jump to the conclusion that a commentor who disagrees with me is trying to harm me personally.  I'm really not that paranoid.  :)

I just said I get wary - which means watchful or cautious- because it's happened to me before.  I think that's a perfectly reasonable reaction to my previous experience.  That's all.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I get the impression that you think folks here have agendas (which I could be wrong) and are trying to drive conversations into a particular viewpoint one way or another.

You are wrong.  At least about your impression of me.  I have never felt anyone here had an agenda.  For the record: Neither. Do. I.

[catrox14]

Okay! Great. I'm glad I'm wrong. Good to know. I think we're all good now then?

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have to say that never made a bit of sense to me how Sam went from "Dean, I want to LIVE so I should do the trials and you shouldn't" to "I don't care if I live anymore".  Holy character whiplash, Batman! 

Decided I better take this over to the "All Episodes" thread, because I had some stuff to comment on, but couldn't really relate it back to the episode at hand.

[Demented Daisy]

On 10/30/2016 at 11:07 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I accept it in the sense that it is kinda a pop cultural reference. Dean probably heard when watching Seinfield or something. ;)

From Clue:

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

From Clue:

Thank you for that DD!  You made me smile imagining the guys using "schtupping" from watching it in Clue.  

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

From Clue:

 

Even better than Seinfeld...for Dean, anyway! ;)

[bettername2come]

Shit. Zombie babysitter reaching for the heart and tearing up the cubicle with it was impressive. And horrifying. 

They make a reference to Dean loving Daisy Duke and then that he wouldn't say no to the Jessica Simpson version. I'm deeply amused because they used to date. Yay for Sam not berating Dean or making judgment on him for his feelings for Amara. And knowing exactly how Dean views himself over this. I was kind of expecting a Ruby reference, but I'm glad they didn't go there because the hold Amara has on Dean is stronger than whatever was between Sam and Ruby. 

Not a great episode for me, but I love that ending.

[Hanahope]

Color me shocked that Dean was actually truthful to Sam about Amarra for a change.  I'm glad that they've finally reached the place where they will tell each other what's going on and not lie anymore and do things behind each other's back.  About friggin time!

The witch was right, there are women out there that constantly fall for the wrong guy.  But that doesn't mean they should die for it.

[Katy M]

45 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The witch was right, there are women out there that constantly fall for the wrong guy.  But that doesn't mean they should die for it.

I don't know if this woman even fit the bill anyway.  Her husband said they had been together since they were the babysitter's age.  So, late teens probably.  So, this wasn't a woman hopping from one cheater to another.  she was trying to save her very long-term relationship and marriage.

[Hanahope]

31 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know if this woman even fit the bill anyway.  Her husband said they had been together since they were the babysitter's age.  So, late teens probably.  So, this wasn't a woman hopping from one cheater to another.  she was trying to save her very long-term relationship and marriage.

The impression I got from the witch was that all women that came to her for a 'return to love' type spell where the husband was cheating, would always come back later again for another, after getting together with another guy.  So the witch got to the point that she wouldn't even give the woman the benefit of the doubt.  if the husband cheated the woman was a bad chooser.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

The impression I got from the witch was that all women that came to her for a 'return to love' type spell where the husband was cheating, would always come back later again for another, after getting together with another guy.  So the witch got to the point that she wouldn't even give the woman the benefit of the doubt.  if the husband cheated the woman was a bad chooser.  

oh, now I thought the witch was saying that the husband who cheated once would invariably cheat again (once a cheater, always a cheater) and that's why the women would need to come back later for another spell after the first one wore off.  

[Wayward Son]

On 11/02/2016 at 3:12 AM, catrox14 said:

Sure Dean is gonna go get laid whilst working on a case.  Sigh. Whatever. 

Dean getting laid during a case has been known to happen. Off the top of my head; he has slept with Cassie (Route 66), Anna (Heaven and Hell) and the Amazon woman (The Slice Girls) during a case. Oh and he also had sex with Suzy (Rock and a Hard Place) during a case and it was very clear this was something he wanted and didn't just happen in the heat of the moment. So I don't see Dean going off for sex here as OOC. 

 

On 31/10/2016 at 9:54 PM, catrox14 said:

It's my opinion that personal biases in this kind of commenting are not particularly problematic. Moreover, those perceived or actual biases do not necessarily inform every thought or comment someone makes. Presuming there is a bias at play on the part of one of the participants in the conversation, shifts the focus from the merits of the conversation to the merits of the participants. 

I don't think biases are bad in and of themselves, but I'd have to agree if taken to an extreme they can completely cloud ones view of the show. Also IMO a big problem with users on here is a tendency to transfer their preferences on to the writing team, past and present, and automatically assume if a writer doesn't share these preferences then they hate the character. For instance Dean fans on here often seem to value the myth arc and BDH  moments and view the emotional side of things as second rate. Therefore if the writers prefer to focus on Deans emotions then it means "they hate the character and only see him as a lame cheerleader". On the other hand, Sam fans on here seem to prefer the emotional arcs and lament the fact Sam isn't getting those and only getting the action scenes. 

 

IMO BOTH the action and BDH moments and the emotional and introspective arcs are equally valid means of storytelling. Fans are free to like one over the other and writers are free to prefer writing one over the other. Some writers like writing character pieces, others love writing exciting action. So just because a writer may prefer writing about character pieces for Dean, but you (general you) want to see him in the action scenes doesn't mean OMG such and such hates Dean because they've a different preference to you 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[The Companion]

On 2/10/2016 at 9:55 PM, 2Old2BAFangirl said:

 

I knew it would be Amara that was Dean's deepest desire and I hated it immediately. I am not a fan of this Dean/Amara connection storyline but it is what it is.

I was really glad that Dean just flat out told Sam the truth. It's nice not to have this one be yet another secret.

 

Me too. I was dreading the reveal and then it turned out okay for me. We have seen Dean struggling with it, and the MoTW actually gave us some insight into his shame. Then the secret and liiiiie was finally resolved and in a way that was fairly supportive, mature and angst free. I ended up liking it.

On 2/11/2016 at 12:30 AM, catrox14 said:

Okay so I rewatched and it was "Dad bod" so seriously writers...WTF are you all playing at with that kind of 

 

ETA:  So if Sam suspected all along, why didn't he speak up until now? Why didn't push Dean more about it if he suspected that was the case.  Sorry that just really kind of hit me.

I am not sure when it clicked for Sam, but one of the things I have actually loved from both brothers this season is that there have been episodes when one brother is going through something and the other checks in and makes himself available to talk. It has been really nice to see that they seem attuned to one another without pushing. 

No person with eyes believes JA has a Dad Bod.

On 2/11/2016 at 2:29 AM, Omegamom said:

All I can say is that Dean must have tried hitting on a brainless baby bimbo to get a "dad bod" comment. And that's not his type. So that felt way, way, way, waaaay out of left field. Bad writers! Bad writers! Go to your kennels!

 

Given some of the episodes of this show, I am not sure that certain writers should be permitted anywhere near a kennel.

On 2/11/2016 at 8:56 AM, KirkB said:

I actually liked Sam pointing out to Dean (and by virtue of that, the audience) that whatever was happening to Dean via Amara is in no way his fault. It's the sister of God. No possible way could he resist or stop her. Whatever they end up doing to defeat her however, will most likely end up being through Dean since I imagine they are going to want him to overcome his...what he perceives to be weakness, I guess.

 

I know there was a lot of disagreement but I loved this discussion. I loved that Sam was supportive and crystal clear that he didn't think it was Dean's fault. 

On 2/12/2016 at 5:10 AM, Demented Daisy said:

 

Between the girl in the street, Mildred, and the girl in this episode, I think they are (quite clumsily) trying to tell us that women are rejecting Dean because they sense that he "belongs to another", as it were.  I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with Dean.

 

Like, if you're in a bar and a handsome guy is hitting on you, but you look at his left hand and see a distinctive mark on his ring finger.  No matter how handsome or charming he is, you might reject him for that alone.  

 

Or perhaps Amara is exerting some strange influence over the women of the world, putting out a "Hands off, he's mine" vibe that's strong enough to reach everyone.  I doubt it, but in the Carver era, almost anything is possible.

This is an interesting theory, actually. 

On 10/11/2017 at 9:12 AM, Hanahope said:

 

The witch was right, there are women out there that constantly fall for the wrong guy.  But that doesn't mean they should die for it.

Even being a cringeworthy cliche (sleeping with the babysitter? Ugh) probably doesn't merit a death sentence. I mean, you are a dick for banging some 19 year old right after your wife has a baby, but that is just generically gross, not a capital offense.

 

I actually enjoyed this one. I did want Dean to coin some sort if Wereshifter/shapewolf word. 😆 I didn't understand why the creature had shifter eyes. Did I miss some bit of explanation there? 

Despite hating Amara, I am actually really enjoying the one off episodes this season. The brothers are working well together. I loved rock, paper, scissors. There was a lot to like for me.

[FlickChick]

17 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Given some of the episodes of this show, I am not sure that certain writers should be permitted anywhere near a kennel.

LOLLOLLL! You gave me the best laugh in quite awhile! Kudos! 🙂