DJG1122 July 17, 2015 Share July 17, 2015 (edited) What if....... They had cast a gorgeous Black or Hispanic actress to play smart, sexy "Mrs. Smith" Betsy Ross? They have 'twistoried' an American Icon and tarted her up; why not cast a WOC as Betsy? Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were fairly accurate portrayals,but Betsy? No, they want her as kickass for THAT demographic. Actually, I am offended that they have taken these liberties with said Icon. Edited July 17, 2015 by DJG1122 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1333906
Indi July 17, 2015 Share July 17, 2015 What if....... They had cast a gorgeous Black or Hispanic actress to play smart, sexy "Mrs. Smith" Betsy Ross? They have 'twistoried' an American Icon and tarted her up; why not cast a WOC as Betsy? Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were fairly accurate portrayals,but Betsy? No, they want her as kickass for THAT demographic. Actually, I am offended that they have taken these liberties with said Icon. Twisting history to turn a Quaker into a sexy vixen is okay, but making her a WOC would be too far! /Leigh 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1333952
HalcyonDays July 17, 2015 Share July 17, 2015 I'm sad that people are going to give up on the show, tbh. Too bad but you gotta go what you gotta do. No one can ever say that this fandom isn't a passionate group, I tell you. Anyone, have you guys seen this. I am sure most of you have, but it you haven't, it's worth a read. LDJ's response on tumblr and I think it deserves to be read. Everything he says is dead on and correct, IMO. And he's taking the time to respond to fans (he didn't have to). And make sure the browse the comments also. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1334440
Moonsky July 17, 2015 Share July 17, 2015 I don't expect them to communicate with me at all. I could care less if they tweet, facebook, whatever. All I'm saying is if they choose to engage, it would probably work out better if they conducted themselves in a professional manner. If he wants to wade in the muck and antagonize people, that's fine with me, but he doesn't get to claim the high ground or my sympathy. There's plenty of wrong and tons of attitude flying around both sides of that timeline. And while I don't care about writers on Twitter, if I did, I still wouldn't agree with the notion that I should just be thankful for their presence no matter how they act. Nor do I think that he's in a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation. There are choices between fighting with fans and ignoring fans completely. However, if he's incapable of doing anything besides just those two things, then yeah, he should probably just ignore the fans. He's not helping the show by trying to win fights. I’m not really into social media like Twitter, Facebook, etc. so marketing & engaging fans in that way isn’t something that hugely appeals to me but I know that it does for many other fans. During a shows off season, from time to time I might check to see if any news comes out about some of the shows that I watch but for the most part I don’t seriously follow news about shows that I watch during their off season. The only reason that I saw the new casting & SH/Bones crossover news was because I was on another message board that discusses various topics (not only regarding TV) & someone made a post about Nikki Reed joining the cast. Like I mentioned before, as soon as I saw that post I knew there would be backlash. I’m sure many people that work in retail would love to curse out some of the customers that they encounter, but even though technically the customer isn’t always right, businesses & their employees many times live by that rule because they know that without customers they have no business, so most of the time they find ways to be professional even when a customer doesn’t really deserve that courtesy. Now he got a Tumblr account and posted a reply to someone, which amounts to telling people how cool he is, but he can't actually appease any concerns in any tangible manner. I read Jackson's post & this paragraph below is why I said the FOX PR department failed that day when announcing the first real news for season 3 even if those critics/fans that panned it end up liking what the showrunner/writers have planned. In regards to Sleepy Hollow, I acknowledged that the Betsy Ross thing might look familiar and I pleaded patience because I actually know the characters we’ve created thus far and the stories we’re trying to tell. I can’t tell you what’s coming. That’s not how it works, obviously. But given that I’m someone who hears these concerns, cares about them and has fought for them for years from inside the machinery of Hollywood, I hoped that my plea would be heard not as a shill for TPTB but as a brown writer/producer who has a brown daughter and who wants her to grow up in a world where awesome genre heroes can look like her. By the way, not a world I’ve yet experienced (here’s hoping Black Panther doesn’t suck!). All throughout season 2 many critics/fans had real issues with season 2. They lost a lot of viewers but some came back for the finale when they heard changes were coming by the end of the season. Some of those fans who came back for the finale & some who stopped watching by midseason & still haven’t watch the finale, were willing to give season 3 a chance if they heard that the show was not going to be a repeat of season 2. A smart PR department for a network should know how to take the temperature of their fandom & after a season that suffered from bad PR, understand that there are good & bad ways to start promoting that show after they have already gotten feedback on what their many critics have already told them what they were interested in. The FOX PR department failed that day because for the past two days there has been more negativity circulating about their announcements than positivity & because of that, the showrunner & writers from the show spent time trying to still reassure fans that they have learned from the mistakes of season 2 & not to jump to conclusions based on descriptions about the new character from the press release. Marketing isn’t brain surgery but it isn’t easy either. If it was as simple as some people think it might be then Fortune 500 companies that spend billions every year on ad campaigns & marketing strategies wouldn’t suffer from both hits & misses when trying to market their products to the masses. Just because you’re good at being a CEO doesn’t mean you’ll be good at marketing your product which is why companies have departments that handle that. So just because you run a network or produce/write for a show doesn’t mean you understand how to market that show to everyone who watches it. The producers/writers could be telling the truth that fans/critics don’t know what their great plans for season 3 are, so they should be patient or they could be talking a load of bs & those people who already called them out on their plans for the year will eventually be proven correct but because in the eyes of many FOX not only screwed up what they initially promoted for season 3 but also how they promoted it, those who are tasked with creating the product are now trying to clean up what the PR department should have done more effectively in the first place. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1334659
cynic July 17, 2015 Share July 17, 2015 (edited) Oh, it's for sure a marketing fail for SH if they're truly trying to address fan concerns in season 3. However, if TPTB really see this as Crane's show and think that he should have a major, kickass love interest as well as his sidekick, Abbie, then I guess they were just doing their jobs. Regardless, I will be watching come October. I truly want to see if they can fix this show, because Abbie showing Ichabod modern life while he crabs about it is one of my favorite tv things ever. I like it so much, in fact, that I have stuck with this show even though I think it lost its way halfway through season 1, not in season 2 like most seem to think. I've hung on for two years due to their partnership and just seven episodes of awesomeness (plus S2 finale). However, if that partnership takes a backseat to "Mr. & Mrs. Smith" this season, I'm done. As for Jackson, I don't fault him for the announcement, but ever since he decided to take it upon himself to call out io9 for criticizing it, he has been handling this terribly. If he was a customer service rep, he'd be the kind that would tell you that things weren't his fault, he didn't do it, it's not his job, and he's having a terrible day too instead of just resetting your cable box (freakin' Time Warner). He's made things all about him and how fans are mean and stop or he'll take his ball home. He says he doesn't want to fight with fans. Easy enough. Stop fighting with the fans then. Sure, you won't get the last word then or get to show how right you are, but who cares. Or, if he really wanted to appease fans, how about something like, "I hear you. We can't say anything about the season, but I assure you that we understand your concerns and Abbie/Ichabod remains the heart of our show. Please give us a chance to prove that to you come October." I'd happily accept that as positive news and look forward to the season. Edited July 17, 2015 by cynic 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1334858
Julia July 17, 2015 Share July 17, 2015 Honestly, internal disciplinary problems in the writer's room of this show have already gotten more of my attention that I think they're worth, so I'll just say that I think one of the most junior members of the writing staff making himself the issue speaks poorly of him, and take the rest to What do you think. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1334933
vanarnd1 July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 I feel bad for Leigh to an extent because I don't think he was intending to anger the fans, but he showed irrogance and a lack of understanding of the history of the show. If he had just said, "I understand why fans might be skeptical of this casting but please give it a chance" I think it would have gone over much better. But he(and Campbell) seem to act as if their is no reason for viewers of the show(especially black women) to have reservations about the Betsy Ross character. They don't seem to realize how similar this sounds to Katrina and how damaging and hurtful it is to fans who love Abbie to hear this news instead of more development for her character. I mean if this show really understood the fans, the first big spoiler would have been related to Abbie. But instead the first important decision made by the new leadership is casting a "smart, sexy" white woman as a regular who could be a love interest to the white male character who has already had his previous relationship dominate a season. Instead of giving Abbie more character development and showcasing her sex appeal (which Nicole obviously has IMO) they feel the need to add a new character to fill that void.. At best this is tone deaf, stupid PR and at worst it could kill the show depending on how it is executed. This feels like deja vu with TPTB not understanding why fans were drawn to the show in the first place, and not understanding how important the Abbie character is to the fanbase of the show. Instead of breaking new ground like it seemed was possible in Season 1, the show has ended up playing into many familar stereotypes and right now it seems more likely that Season 3 will be more of the same. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1335535
HalcyonDays July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 I mean if this show really understood the fans, the first big spoiler would have been related to Abbie. But instead the first important decision made by the new leadership is casting a "smart, sexy" white woman as a regular who could be a love interest to the white male character who has already had his previous relationship dominate a season. Timing is important to how spoilers are released. The further away from a premiere, the less important. The closer to premier, the more important. People are notorious for having short memories, therefore releasing information "first" will be forgotten quickly by the masses. The good stuff (and more detailed stuff) is always released closer to the actual airing of movie or TV show, in order to entice people before they can change their minds or before they forget. This is why you get "teasers" for a movie, but when it get close to the actual movie release, you get full on trailers. Less important information is always released first. More important information (aka grab that audience NOW!) is always released closer to actual air time. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1336326
cynic July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 In a normal situation, I'd agree with you. This isn't a normal situation due to the debacle that was season 2. I think a smart marketing team would adjust their strategy, especially in response to a backlash. They might not have as many people willing to listen closer to the premiere. Or, they could take the stance that it is the audience's fault for not having the right reactions and not knowing industry norms and see where that gets them. It's working really well for them so far! (I just realized how much ten years in TwoP affected me. I see phrases like "I don't understand why people" and I'm immediately like, that's boards on boards! I might as well start salivating at a dinner bell. One day, I'll realize I'm free and dare to start a post with "Um".) 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1336429
Free July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 In a normal situation, I'd agree with you. This isn't a normal situation due to the debacle that was season 2. I think a smart marketing team would adjust their strategy, especially in response to a backlash. They might not have as many people willing to listen closer to the premiere. Or, they could take the stance that it is the audience's fault for not having the right reactions and not knowing industry norms and see where that gets them. It's working really well for them so far! Exactly, this is coming off the backlash from last season, which was the whole point of trying to do a reset/FOX intervening. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1336613
DJG1122 July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 (edited) From a Sleepy Hollowers post: Anonymous asked: Hell, guys; I've figured it out. Why they're taking so long to get script approvals and start filming. Why they're being so cagey and smug about the storyline. Why they've nixed OJ and possibly Sakina. Why they're able to call Betsy a "series regular". Team Witness still has the Grand Grimoire with the Traveler's Spell. They're going to be sending people (probably just Ichabod) back to the past, either for a story arc or on a frequent basis. At the same time Marinelli/Hume casting webpage was looking for a stand-in for an AA male, it was also casting for white male and female extras for a 1700's gala for a supernatural crime show filming in Conyers. Edited July 18, 2015 by DJG1122 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1336922
HalcyonDays July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 In a normal situation, I'd agree with you. This isn't a normal situation due to the debacle that was season 2. I think a smart marketing team would adjust their strategy, especially in response to a backlash. They might not have as many people willing to listen closer to the premiere. Or, they could take the stance that it is the audience's fault for not having the right reactions and not knowing industry norms and see where that gets them. It's working really well for them so far! Yeah, you are correct in the fact that PR is lacking with SH. That I totally agree with. I'll mention this, just as a comparison. Over at the X-Files revival thread, people are losing their minds over spoilers or bits of information about the show (similar to here, just not as angry). The show airs January 2016, but they've already released a teaser clip (that tells you nothing at all, by the way), but it's still something. Both are FOX. That has been a constant since day 1 - total lack of PR for this show. (I just realized how much ten years in TwoP affected me. I see phrases like "I don't understand why people" and I'm immediately like, that's boards on boards! I might as well start salivating at a dinner bell. One day, I'll realize I'm free and dare to start a post with "Um".) Shit, you are right. My bad and apologies. I wrote it late at night and should know better - especially me. I've edited my post, in case it comes off badly or is misread. Again, apologies (and good one the way you called me out on it - *grin* - I deserved that!) 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1337012
cynic July 18, 2015 Share July 18, 2015 No worries, Halcyon Days. :) I'm probably ultra sensitive to it, because I had a warning on my account from one BoB comment I made in the SYTYCD forum for TEN YEARS. I'm actually glad that things are, while still well-moderated, less draconian here. And though emotions are higher than normal of late, the discussions are are always great. Topic: Oh, how I wish SH had made it to Comic Con. We'd have a much better sense of how the wind is blowing and they could have presented stuff that may have eased some people's minds. I was so excited for the show after attending last year. The whole cast was there and they teased season 2 and showed a clip of the bank scene. What a lost PR opportunity for a show that is already struggling to retain its audience. Other shows really didn't have any new footage and still went. Heck, just bringing Beharie and Mison to be cute and dodge questions for 45 minutes would have been enough and sent the message that Abbie and Ichabod are the heart of the show. If they really wanted to do something for the fans, they could have prepared a special clip just for the Con. The Strain had a comedic "behind the scenes" piece with the cast playing props handlers, writers, etc. That was in addition to the footage of the upcoming season. (Plus, they gave us flashlights. Gotta love swag. :) And they're just on FX. Heck, Sherlock last year put together a short video interview with Cumberbatch where he supposedly explained Sherlock surviving his fall except the video "accidently" got messed up in the middle. It was cute and a great tease. SH could have filmed Abbie and Crane going to Costco or playing video games or even just trying on more clothes and we would have been ecstatic, because it would have focused on them. It makes me wonder if TPTB had to change stuff and are scrambling, since they actually cancelled an already scheduled appearance (as opposed to just not scheduling to go at all). Also, it seems like a misstep to send Mison alone to DragonCon in August. Beharie should be going too. Hopefully, he will explain that she is on vacation or something during that time and couldn't attend as opposed to just not being sent by the show. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1337217
Trini July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 (I just realized how much ten years in TwoP affected me. I see phrases like "I don't understand why people" and I'm immediately like, that's boards on boards! I might as well start salivating at a dinner bell. One day, I'll realize I'm free and dare to start a post with "Um".) (Ha! I did an 'um' post the other day -- so freeing!) --- Just so I understand; the main controversy is that the new character is a regular AND a love interest for Crane? Because it was already known that "sexy Betsy Ross" was coming, right? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1338230
Julia July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 (edited) Just so I understand; the main controversy is that the new character is a regular AND a love interest for Crane? Because it was already known that "sexy Betsy Ross" was coming, right? That's the idiotic thing. Nobody knows. They described the dynamic between the two of them in terms of a movie where the leads were antagonistic but really wanted to tear each others' clothes off, so the assumption is that there will be something there. That may or may not be true. Hopefully, the fuss was loud enough that if that's where they decided to go they've reconsidered. Honestly, it may not be more than that Nikki Reed is going to be down there because her husband works nearby and they figured they could get a minor celebrity cheap. Trouble is, this show lost roughly 3/4 of their viewers by making poor choices about a supposedly hot character no-one but the showrunner was interested in, and the man who made the poor choices took an extremely disrespectful stance while he was doing it. The few viewers left are painfully aware of that. After all the times the writer's room has screwed the audience, Ausiello-style teasing is not their friend, and they need to get a little message discipline going on. It also doesn't help that Orlando Jones is gone. He's kind of brilliant about social media, and he made a lot of frustrated fans feel as if they were being listened to. Edited July 19, 2015 by Julia 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1338541
BestestAuntEver July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 Wow, I've missed alot. I've read all the posts and links. Honestly, I don't what I'm going to do regarding this show. I know we have a new head writer in addition to a couple of new writers yet I don't trust them. SorryNotSorry, that they aren't getting and leeway but it's just how I feel about everyone attached to the show. They can speak all they want, I will have to be shown via what appears on screen. I'm tired and as a black WoC, I don't have too be patient or wait and see. Either you respect and fully develop your black female lead or you don't. I'm tired of this switch and bait shit. I have other shows I can watch or I can read a book with true world building and none of the attached BTS crap. Hell, I love football and even watch the poorly played Thursday games all the way through. My viewership has to be earned and as of right now TPTB are doing a pissed poor job. Sadly, I now know I won't be watching the premiere live. I'll read here and see what up and then decide. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1338813
Happytobehere July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 (edited) What if.......They had cast a gorgeous Black or Hispanic actress to play smart, sexy "Mrs. Smith" Betsy Ross?They have 'twistoried' an American Icon and tarted her up; why not cast a WOC as Betsy? Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were fairly accurate portrayals,but Betsy? No, they want her as kickass for THAT demographic. Actually, I am offended that they have taken these liberties with said Icon. But Betsy Ross was a real person and she was white. Why would a non-white person be cast to play her. It would be like casting Charlize Theron to play Coretta Scott King, or a Baldwin brother to play Nat Turner. Such casting would be inappropriate IMO and would serve no purpose. Betsy Ross was white and the person who plays her should be white, and I say this as a black woman. The issue isn't about Betsy Ross, the issue is why bring this character on as a series regular, especially after Season 2's debacle. Season 3 should be about returning to what made the show great initially and wooing back fans, while hopefully drawing in new viewers. What has been done thus far is only serving to alienate the fans who have been hanging on; a move like this can only hurt the show and push it closer to cancellation. Edited July 19, 2015 by Happytobehere 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1338829
cynic July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 (edited) --- Just so I understand; the main controversy is that the new character is a regular AND a love interest for Crane? Because it was already known that "sexy Betsy Ross" was coming, right? I'm less concerned about the romance angle and more worried about the screen time issues. Reed's regular status coupled with the promo description of Betsy as "a Mrs Smith to Crane's Mr Smith" implies to me that she will be working at Crane's side a lot as his partner (unless they just mean they'll be trying to kill each other which was not really the point of the movie). Since I'm very fond of his actual costar partner, I'm concerned that this news means less screen time for Beharie or, at least, less time involved in the A plot and working with Mison, due to Reed working with him (Pittura Infamante, anyone?). Also, since she's from the past, I'm wondering if this means that Season 3 will be flashback heavy (which I don't like, because I think the show works best when it focuses on modern day with the flashbacks used as enhancements) or Betsy will be brought to modern times (which diminishes Crane's special fish out of water-ness and that's never a good thing). Either way, I just worry that Abbie will become less of a Scully working with Mulder and more of a sidekick or supporting cast member to Mison's Crane (since, you just know that nothing is going to happen to his screen time). Of course, an epic romance between Betsy and Crane would exacerbate all the above. Plus, it would just be glaringly obvious in the difference between how TV normally would handle a male/female lead show (think Castle, Bones, etc) versus how they handle this show if they make Betsy a major love interest, especially after two seasons of Katrina. Having said that, I do think it could be interesting if Betsy ends up being a time traveling big bad flipside of Crane. Though I think that would work better and be more suspenseful if they had made up a character as opposed to using a historical figure that we know married three times and died in her eighties, but we'll see how it goes. Edited July 19, 2015 by cynic 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339193
Julia July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 (edited) But Betsy Ross was a real person and she was white. She was also plain, short, middle-aged, had been widowed three times, and had the body of a woman who gave birth six times in rapid succession and then did hard physical labor as the sole support of her children. She probably had at least some repetitive stress damage to her hands and almost certainly a squint from sewing in inadequate light. Add in quaker non-violence and the Betsy Ross they're describing could be played by a tauntaun and not be much less like the historical figure than she already is, JMO. Edited July 19, 2015 by Julia 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339244
jhlipton July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 They could avoid a LOT (um, two words, right? [please don't kill me!]) of the problem by having Nikki (the original ond only) tweet something like "Shooting Episode #n. So excited about the direction we're going!" Doesn't give anything away, but makes it clear that she's still involved. Having all the stars maintain "radio silence" is not helping! On my other show, I think the producers of The Walking Dead are going to need to threaten Andrew Lincoln to make him stop looking at Danai Guirira (Michonne) like he wants to swallow her whole! LOL! I don't watch WD, but everything I've heard about Michonne has been very positive ("pet zombies" was WHACK!). Also, let just say that if Danai Guirira was my girlfriend, there would be a lot of swallowing on both sides! (I just realized how much ten years in TwoP affected me. I see phrases like "I don't understand why people" and I'm immediately like, that's boards on boards! I might as well start salivating at a dinner bell. One day, I'll realize I'm free and dare to start a post with "Um".) I just had to LOL at this! From a Sleepy Hollowers post:Anonymous asked: Hell, guys; I've figured it out. Why they're taking so long to get script approvals and start filming. Why they're being so cagey and smug about the storyline. Why they've nixed OJ and possibly Sakina. Why they're able to call Betsy a "series regular". Team Witness still has the Grand Grimoire with the Traveler's Spell. They're going to be sending people (probably just Ichabod) back to the past, either for a story arc or on a frequent basis. I like this idea and it would explain why they're being so cagey about the plot. In fact, there's nothing that would restrict them to the Revolutionary War period. The team of Ich, Abbie (leads and Witnesses), Jenny, Hawley and Ross could bop around US or world history -- stopping at lesser known times and places. Could the show dare to address "sunset towns" for example? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339395
Wynterwolf July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 I like this idea and it would explain why they're being so cagey about the plot. In fact, there's nothing that would restrict them to the Revolutionary War period. The team of Ich, Abbie (leads and Witnesses), Jenny, Hawley and Ross could bop around US or world history -- stopping at lesser known times and places. Could the show dare to address "sunset towns" for example? **entertaining happy thoughts of a beloved old show called Voyagers!** Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339426
phoenics July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 But if it succeeds, will they praise Nikki B and Jenny or Nikki R? (Too many Nikki's now They couldn't have picked someone with a different name????!) Fox M sez: "I want to believe!" EXACTLY! If the show fails, Nikki B will get the blame. If it succeeds, Nikki R will get the praise. I am SO DONE with this crappy game where Women of Color cannot win no matter what we do. I can't even escape all of this horrid nonsense even in my entertainment. I'm just exhausted. Between the charleston massacre and the flag and all of the shootings this summer and folks dying in police custody - I don't have the energy to give this show a chance to further break my heart. I just don't. I'm already living in fear with The Flash because I just KNOW Iris is about to get shoved aside... a previous poster said it best - Black woman leads are literally under siege right now. I guess the jig is up and we're just here to lure in other women of color fans... with token representation and not real representation. I'm so tired. I read this person's tumblr and know they are very passionate and devoted and into the fandom. She has had a lot of insightful posts and ideas in the past, but for the most part, I am on Jackson's side. I'm sorry, I'm on his side with this. We don't know anything about him and his life. And yes, he spent the last 12 hours tweeting but uh, the NEWS was fucking released 12 + hours ago. What is he supposed to do? Travel into the future in his DeLorean to anticipate this, and start tweeting on day 1 of his job. He's working. He has a life outside SH. Fighting the racism a white person only enounters on the internet due to a television show is NOT the same as a person who has to live it everyday. This guy doesn't deserve this backlash and neither does the show or showrunner at this point. Because we don't know anything about season 3 at all. Nothing but two casting notices. That's it. Considering the events of the past few months, with the racial tensions in the US, in any other circumstance - any other - she would be slammed for being a entitled white person. I have the same apprehensions most others do about season 3, but this is starting to go too far, to be honest. This is getting ridiculous. I feel like you're missing the point. It doesn't matter what he did in the past because as of right now, he hasn't done it on this show in any way we can see. So he should have just kept this to himself. He's responding to her as though she's supposed to know all the mess he's done behind the scenes and he is not in any way understanding the horrific post traumatic stress syndrome this fandom is dealing with. You don't get to come into a situation where folks are holding on by their fingernails and tell them to have patience. No. You extend the life line IMMEDIATELY. They should be pushing story about ABBIE not Crane and some newbie (and lauding her as bringing sexy to the show as though Abbie and Jenny don't). It's just more coded language and bs. The fact that he doesn't get that speaks volumes. But as I said - what they won't be is as gunshy in the future about picking a POC when they cast for a lead role. Cookie Lyons. Empire. I think they know that when they treat their lead POC right, and market the mess out of her, they win. Empire is a juggernaut and it's because of TPJ. Just imagine what NB could do for SH if they actually PROMOTED HER! Her side eyes could literally be an entire promotion all on their own! 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339850
HalcyonDays July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 I feel like you're missing the point. <snip> He is not in any way understanding the horrific post traumatic stress syndrome this fandom is dealing with. I'm not missing the point. I think that people are jumping to conclusions about stuff, tainted by the past, of which Jackson nor Campbell are a part of. Let me try to clarify. Do you think Leigh Dana Jackson has read all of the twitters and tumblrs and facebooks that we all read on a daily basis? You don't, just like you don't know any of the behind the scenes stuff going on. You assume so, because you possess the information from reading other people's post. But he most likely hasn't. Nor has he read this board, or all of the threads on this board to get a FULL understanding of our complaints. He's trying though. They should be pushing story about ABBIE not Crane and some newbie... And how do you know they won't. There is still 2.5 months until the premiere. People here are being completely impatient, and the natural word to use is "be patient." Here is a tweet from him today: Leigh Dana Jackson @LDJackson 4h4 hours ago @CherryCinnaMoon @geejayeff as I've said, this is only the first casting announcement. There will be others. Can't say what characters... Exactly. He knows. We do not. Abbie's storyline is coming closer to premiere, to grab the attention of everyone closer to the first episode. This is just how mdia functions. Which brings me to something else I just realized. Everyone's freaking out over the Bones/SH crossover without asking the most important question.... Which show will the cross-over air on? Once again, everyone is jumping to conclusions and thinking it will be on SH, but I don't think so. This is Bones' final season. A good idea would be to try to grab some Bones viewers and get them interested in SH. I predict the cross-over will be aired on Bones, NOT Sleepy Hollow. For some reason, Abbie and Crane will appear on BONES, not the other way. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339868
phoenics July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 The treatment of black women by black men is very, very bad. Notice that he said that he was PRO WOC because his mother, daughter, sister, cousin were WOC. Notice what is missing from this list? That right there IS the point. Alot, not all, of black men drank the Kool Aid that Black women - though very useful in lots of situations - are not as sexually appealing as their white counterparts and they have contributed ALOT to the desexualizing of WOC. Ironically enough, the ones occasionally giving us some props are white men. Sure some are still biased (looking at you Goffman) but it's not just my imagination that when Tom Mison looks at Nicole Beharie, his entire countenance tells me that in his opinion, he is looking at a beautiful (and sexy) woman. On my other show, I think the producers of The Walking Dead are going to need to threaten Andrew Lincoln to make him stop looking at Danai Guirira (Michonne) like he wants to swallow her whole! LOL! My feeling is that if people just let the pieces lay where they fall, we'd see the diversity we crave. There are beautiful women of all races (I'm not discounting my white girlfriends at all!). All we ask is that tv stop TELLING us who is supposed to be beautiful and let us/society decide on our own. I noticed the person missing from his list of family WoC too. The ONLY saving grace he gets right now from me is that he apparently pushed Astrid and John on TTP. I loved them. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339887
cynic July 19, 2015 Share July 19, 2015 (edited) Which brings me to something else I just realized. Everyone's freaking out over the Bones/SH crossover without asking the most important question.... Which show will the cross-over air on? Once again, everyone is jumping to conclusions and thinking it will be on SH, but I don't think so. This is Bones' final season. A good idea would be to try to grab some Bones viewers and get them interested in SH. I predict the cross-over will be aired on Bones, NOT Sleepy Hollow. For some reason, Abbie and Crane will appear on BONES, not the other way. I didn't jump to conclusions. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were. Actually. I just read this article. http://www.ew.com/article/2015/07/15/bones-sleepy-hollow-crossover?hootPostID=3bd07736c2f92dce42af4a28ed4cee84 It's occurring on both. It will be two episodes, one on each show. ETA: an opportunity to use Buffy quote! Edited July 19, 2015 by cynic 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339906
jhlipton July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 (edited) Do you think Leigh Dana Jackson has read all of the twitters and tumblrs and facebooks that we all read on a daily basis? ...But he most likely hasn't. Nor has he read this board, or all of the threads on this board to get a FULL understanding of our complaints. He's trying though. This is complete and utter BS. There's no one on staff that could have come to the writers' room on the very first day and said "Here is what we're facing. Please make sure that anything you say -- even if you're just talking to a friend in a doughnut shop <*> -- gets cleared first. This show was made and saved on social media -- just do a search on #AbbyMillsDeservesBetter -- so make sure your presence there is positive."? Which show will the cross-over air on? I predict the cross-over will be aired on Bones, NOT Sleepy Hollow. For some reason, Abbie and Crane will appear on BONES, not the other way. That's not the way cross-overs work, usually (and the EW article linked by cynic Seems to agree). Both shows will cross-over. <*> Arrane Grande said "I hate America" while talking about doughnuts in a private conversation and was lambasted for it. Edited July 20, 2015 by jhlipton 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1339937
RiddleyWalker July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 (edited) EXACTLY! If the show fails, Nikki B will get the blame. If it succeeds, Nikki R will get the praise. I am SO DONE with this crappy game where Women of Color cannot win no matter what we do. I can't even escape all of this horrid nonsense even in my entertainment. I'm just exhausted. Between the charleston massacre and the flag and all of the shootings this summer and folks dying in police custody - I don't have the energy to give this show a chance to further break my heart. I just don't. I'm already living in fear with The Flash because I just KNOW Iris is about to get shoved aside... a previous poster said it best - Black woman leads are literally under siege right now. I guess the jig is up and we're just here to lure in other women of color fans... with token representation and not real representation. I'm so tired. ……. Hi @Phoenics! As I said in the other post, I can understand where you're coming from and the investment you have in the show (and especially Abbie), but I'll never feel it the way you do. That being said, the fact that I can even understand what upsets you about Abbie's treatment and the ham-handed PR lately is entirely due to you and others with your opinions. It takes a lot to get something like this to sink in for some of us, so don't think that there is no benefit (eventually) to your complaints about the current state of Hollywood. This sort of thing does have repercussions and subtle effects such as this on me. I can totally understand your desire to avoid further pain and disappointment--I really can. That being said, even if you don't watch the episodes, it might be worth tuning in here. If you find out it was a great show, you can catch it on Hulu, if not, there might be some comedy gold on the comments here! OK, so if you're feeling down, here's a clip from my new favorite comedy-genre movie, What We Do in the Shadows. It's a fake documentary about vampires (in New Zealand no less…) I think it's even funnier than This is Spinal Tap. Here's a clip when the vampires we're following (and their human friend, "Stu") come across some werewolves…. ;) Edited July 20, 2015 by RiddleyWalker 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1340197
jhlipton July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Leigh tweeted about a webseries called Pretty (https://www.youtube.com/user/hairunruled/videos) and a blog called Un’rly (http://un-ruly.com/), both by Antonia Opiah. are pretty cool and well worth a visit. Maybe he gets it, at least a little bit. I hope @phoenics and others visit and report what they think.. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1340358
Julia July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased to hear that the new junior writer is less insensitive than he made himself look, but another couple of months of him assuring the fans that he knows something they don't know (but he can't tell) so their concerns are baseless is going to get old pretty fast. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1340443
HalcyonDays July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 This is complete and utter BS. Nothing I say is ever complete and utter BS. *arrogant smirk* Kidding!! (sort of). You're killing me, jhlipton.... Please make sure that anything you say -- even if you're just talking to a friend in a doughnut shop <*> -- gets cleared first. Well, IF this scenario actually happened, then said tweets would not have happened, because let's face it, most people want to keep their jobs. He may work on a TV show, but he is still subject to typical business operations and occurances. It's obvious this conversation didn't happen, because he's been engaging people for three days now. IF he was told to shut the hell up or else you're fired, he would have. Even if he was told to shut the hell up because job expectation, he would have. Most people would. He has no dog in the "fight" for SH because like most people, he wants to remain employed. However, my original point really is not BS, because we just don't know. He doesn't know all of the intricate details because dude hasn't read the zillions of comments of posts in the multitude of threads out there. A briefing, fine, but that briefing misses details, and again he tried. Also, again, we are not in the writers room to know how skewed said briefing was. Think of it like this - you get a job position after the previous dude was fired for whatever reason. When you start your job, you hear some mention of why dude was fired, but you don't get the precise details. For LDJ, the same applies. He probably heard "Well, the second season was not well received. No one liked K-wife, they all thought Abbie was side-lined and CFD sucked." How much detail would they go into? You will never, ever know the full details of why person failed in a job, because confidentiality and human nature. Which is why I said - unless dude read every single post here on PTV - he does not know the full details and full reasoning ad nauseum as to why season 2 failed. You guys are killing me, man. Literally killing me. I am the most bitter, cynical MoFo in the business, yet you guys are beating me at my game here. The fact that I feel like the optimist is messing with my head.... There's no one on staff that could have come to the writers' room on the very first day and said "Here is what we're facing. Please make sure that anything you say -- even if you're just talking to a friend in a doughnut shop <*> -- gets cleared first. This show was made and saved on social media -- just do a search on #AbbyMillsDeservesBetter -- so make sure your presence there is positive."? The only reason we "think" that the show was saved due to social media was because of a tweet that Aaron Baiers made. But the reality is this - everything is a business decision. A petition of 100,000 people clamoring to save SH wouldn't be enough, if the networks didn't think they could make money on season 3 or at least profit somehow from it. Countless popular shows have been cancelled because they are not profitable. (Laments ABC's Forever) It's nice that the masses think their little social media campaign worked. The only thing it did was to garner attention to the show. If the show crunched the numbers and decided that production and airing would lose the network significant money or was not worth the monetary risk - SH would have been cancelled. Profit is a cold hard business fact, but it is a reality. As much as I hate to say it, this is truth. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1340797
Indi July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 You guys are killing me, man. Literally killing me. I am the most bitter, cynical MoFo in the business Nooooo, you are not. At least that's not my perception. I see more sunshine than anything :P The only reason we "think" that the show was saved due to social media was because of a tweet that Aaron Baiers made. But the reality is this - everything is a business decision. A petition of 100,000 people clamoring to save SH wouldn't be enough, if the networks didn't think they could make money on season 3 or at least profit somehow from it. Countless popular shows have been cancelled because they are not profitable. (Laments ABC's Forever) It's nice that the masses think their little social media campaign worked. The only thing it did was to garner attention to the show. If the show crunched the numbers and decided that production and airing would lose the network significant money or was not worth the monetary risk - SH would have been cancelled. Profit is a cold hard business fact, but it is a reality. As much as I hate to say it, this is truth. I agree with this, although I also think that other factors contributed to the renewal too, like the fact that the show wasn't doing so bad compared to other shows, that it didn't have realistic replacements and that it would be a good PR move for FOX. That doesn't mean they don't count on it tanking, which is why they moved it to Thursdays and why it's having no promotion. Or perhaps they think it can have an acceptable audience if they keep it procedural and with the male lead front and center and, most important of all, single. I totally believe that insider, who leaked that information about the new and improved Sleepy Hollow. It would be more procedural, Ichabod would continue having romantic adventures with several ladies and they didn't mention Abbie, because they don't care. That's why the news about sexy Betsy Ross was hardly surprising to me. If for some miracle there is a S4, I expect another Katrina 3.0, while Abbie gets another hug from Jenny at some point. Which is why I care next to nothing about what Leigh has been saying. He has no power to make Abbie relevant, even if he wanted to (something I don't know). If FOX, the showrunner and the other producers decide to turn the show into the Mr. and Mrs. Smith show with Abbie hovering in the background, with the occasional Ichabbie banter, he can do nothing about it. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1340822
jhlipton July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Nothing I say is ever complete and utter BS. *arrogant smirk* Kidding!! (sort of). You're killing me, jhlipton.... Well, IF this scenario actually happened, then said tweets would not have happened, because let's face it, most people want to keep their jobs. I'm sorry. Please don't die, HalcyonDays! [Refrains from staying "Stay with me", which is a sure-fire way to make people die] It's obvious no such briefing took place. It's obvious that they never mentioned #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter. And whether that hashtag saved the show or not, it was the single most popular on social media. No one should have gone on Twitter or FaceBook or whatever without being aware of it. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1340876
DearEvette July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 (edited) I feel bad for Leigh to an extent because I don't think he was intending to anger the fans, but he showed irrogance and a lack of understanding of the history of the show. If he had just said, "I understand why fans might be skeptical of this casting but please give it a chance" I think it would have gone over much better. But he(and Campbell) seem to act as if their is no reason for viewers of the show(especially black women) to have reservations about the Betsy Ross character.... At best this is tone deaf, stupid PR and at worst it could kill the show depending on how it is executed. This feels like deja vu with TPTB not understanding why fans were drawn to the show in the first place, and not understanding how important the Abbie character is to the fanbase of the show. Instead of breaking new ground like it seemed was possible in Season 1, the show has ended up playing into many familar stereotypes and right now it seems more likely that Season 3 will be more of the same. Two things: 1) Irrogance? LOL. If that is a typo then it is the best typo ever because I read it as a cross between 'ignorance' and 'arrogance' and that is exactly where I think his response comes from. Ignorance because I think that no matter how tuned he is in to some of the frustrations POC have as viewers of shows, he really doesn't get how the Betsy Ross announcement, esp. the tone of it, ties into the specific frustrations with this show and not being aware of how the 'be patient' and 'trust us' line is like waving a red flag in front of an angry bull with this fandom.. And arrogance because he feels that he can show some old receipts and we'll be all ok. He's not new. he should be smart enough to know that it is always about 'what have you done for me lately' and while we are hopeful you still need to prove. That said, I can't get too mad at him. I think his intentions were probably quite pure and I can't fault him for attempting to engage. it was just clumsily done. And it is better for him to learn this way why the fandom is so weary. 2) I 100% agree on the tone deaf PR thing. As long as Abbie & Ichabod remained front and center with their partnership intact and their trust & relationship with each other paramount and no one usurping Abbie's place, they could have slipped in their sexy Betsy Ross and as long as we remained engaged in whatever story they were telling, fans would not have turned much of a hair. If the story/characters are as well done as LDJ is hinting at, then there would have been a non-reaction. But the PR dept. choosing to break radio silence by giving us 1) a new series regular 2)white woman 3) sexy partner to Ichabod 4) bad ass. 5)aftermath of Katrina foolishness... Talk about the perfect storm of the absolute worst thing you could have come out of the gate with. All of this agita could have been avoided if the first piece of info would have been about Team Witness or Jenny. Meanwhile over at Empire, on the same day we got the gushing press release about Sexy Betsy, they dropped a bad ass poster of Cookie and Lucious, wearing gold, with 'come at me bruh' expressions on their faces, sitting on thrones caressing full maned mutha-fuckin' lions! Both of them looking Boss. See that is a show that understand its fans. They get what the Empire fans want to see. In just one simple image they raised anticipation. I remember when the S2 poster of SH came out of Abbie & Ichabod reaching toward each other separate by thorns. That was great PR. Where are those people? You can't tell me this is the same PR team. Edited July 20, 2015 by DearEvette 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1341122
fantique July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 (edited) I had a long post that was rambling, chilled and came back today. Still rambled, sorry. Also, I might have used strong language repeatedly and I am sorry, it seemed to be the most effective reflction of my emotions. Note to self: invest in an english dictionary. Please ignore my crazy talk if you wish. Otherwise, nerd rage coming your way at light years per seconds. The rant is in the spoiler tag. Read at your own risk. Firstly, I am probably not going to watch the upcoming season. I am 85% sure I won't watch it before Christmas break and 50% sure I won't watch at all. Why? Because taste level is important and whoever is holding the reigns doesn't inspire confidence in me. Because last year was lauded as the golden age of TV, a lot of producers and writers chilled and did fuck all this year, most programs I watched had lazy writing, shitty editing, just a bunch of signs that people are not even at 50% effort. The only show I had no complaints about whatsoever was Jane the Virgin (seriously watch it guys, it is amazing). I just don't like the fact that there is some kind of fuckery BTS that made them cancel on SDCC. The casting of Nikki Reed (who I love) sounds like they thought about it 5 seconds before it went online. I remember even saying something to the effect of finding the wording for the call totally cringe worthy. I am not worried about sexy betsy supplanting Abbie. Maybe I am naive or maybe I only have enough will to care about a certain amount of things at a time. Whether TV execs are idiots who don't think Abbie is cutting it, just can not be on my list right now. Another reason I don't think I will be watching. I adore the Abbie character, Nicole Beharie is now one of my favourite actors and I would rather bide my time, wait for the show's imminent failure and see her in projects where the peeps are using her optimally which I don't think the SH format allows for either actors really. I don't think the people at the wheel understand subtlety, otherwise their go to move wouldn't be "get Crane an Angelina" when whatever shit we don't know about hit the fan, they probably don't have enough creativity to satisfy my standards. I am tired of bang bang plots, explosions! and shock being called good storytelling. I am slowly coming to the realisation that most viewers are exposed to ridiculous inerpretations of interesting real life concepts that could add depth to stories. Viewers can only believe there is love between two characters if they act like they want to bang each other, regardless of all declarations and behaviours, if the female counterpart is not being sexualised, nope! Not love. If a female character gets interesting, they have to be sexed up because otherwise the show is clearly not seeing them as important. Being smart means throwing coy looks at the camera and monologuing. As long as somebody is self proclaimed "insert word here", they are even when proving the contrary. Truth of the matter is, I am probably not going to get what I want from SH. They probably will fuck up and lack insight, imagination or balls to explore an interesting theme, switch up their storytelling styles or simply let the story take them where it wants to go. That's the beauty of strongly established main characters, you can let them get you where you nedd to be but don't know yet. To top it all off, even if the twitter clamoueres get what they want, I won't be happy because I don't want a more beauty/appearance focused Abbie. She is already gorgeous, I don't need that validated by Tom, Dick and Harry in prod or the random Joe on the show. I want the fact that this young girl who, by looks of it, was a by the rules goody-two-shoes conformist, was one day thrown onto the course of a life she couldn't have imagined. How interesting is it that her misconduct is what got her to be a cop? Why did fate/god/what or whoever choose her? What is it like to want to go out there in the world and move up the ladder of a profession she loves and is great at but having this anchor playing hide and seek that keeps restrained near the nest she want to fly from? I want struggles, I want moments that while I still love Abbie, I don't really like her because she is being a bitch to Jenny or unfair to Crane, etc. and still understand why and want her to get better. I want the character I love to be a real person not some avatar. The problem is that writers/networks don't always think about or even want those things. And some fans that are vocal don't seem to either. I get that identiification is a thing, but Abbie is Abbie. Not a representation of all of us. Yes, some injustice to the character/actress can be due to her race but to decide unilaterally that all issues black female characters have been impeded by are being thrust on the character is jumping the gun. Not saying there isn't some of that but I sometimes get tired of talking about TV and having to deal with the extra societal baggage that wouldn't be solved even if Abbie/Nicole was treated like she was a white woman. There is a problem with the US and race and gender, undeniably. It's a cultural and societal problem. Portrayal on a Tv show will only be the exception that confirms the rule to people who haven't been taught to value black women. If people are not tolerant, they will just ignore this and see it as an outlier that doesn't reflect the data. Abbie being seen as beautiful will not solve the problem of black women, unfortunately. I said it on another thread (on Arrow, I believe), Art imitates life. Entertainment is the mirror of a society, cleaning it won't change the image, just its clarity. Even the things that people ban and censure says something about a culture the same way political correctness says a whole lot about the uncomfortable thoughts society promotes while hiding its members from facing its reality. Someone once argued with me that basically the goal is to get to white woman level of discrimination and objectification because I was saying that it's a great thing that Abbie is not sexualised and that her story is independent of her being a woman. I relish the fact that there hasn't been romance in her story because THE FUCKING WORLD IS ENDING. I don't want to see any-fucking-one on a bloody date. Decompress after a mission? Sure. Worrying about a girl/boyfriend? Not interested. I always say that if relationship drama is your only problem, either you don't have much of life, are extremely lucky or you are not looking hard enough. Usually, it's the 3rd. If the show decides to focus on romance for ANY character, they aren't looking hard enough for stories. And now we are coming back full circle to my problem with Mrs "Betsy" Smith. A symptom of lazy and unimaginative writing that I refuse to spend energy on. Instead of tryiing to go for the titillating sexy action chick, how about the portrayal of a tragic heroic figure that was only ever known for sewing and looking plump when she was so much more? How about addressing free will and fate? Is it fair for those guys to be witnesses? Aren't they supposed to die after witnessing? What does it mean that they are actively fighting instead of just sitting back and observing? I know this great book, number 1 best seller in the world. It's called the BIBLE. I am sure there are great ideas to pull from in there. Listen, if even half of this is ever truly examined on the show, not just some BS lip service during interviews, I will come back here with my tail bewteen my legs and saying how awesome the show is. That everyone should watch it and that summer me was just an absolute asshole mouthing off. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen. I don't think the writers consider what I deem important in storytelling. I don't feel like most fans want what I want to see so even if it's great for everyone else, I am probably not going to be happy. It's a lose-lose situation and I know the definition of insanity. Hell, I am starting to get tired of the fandom because they think that they should be getting updates on scripts throughout the summer and when ONE casting news comes out, decide to attack people and act like they have been betrayed and that the people that said understood what they wanted are liars. How would most of us personally feel if we are trying hard to do a project; things are hectic and probably more out of our control than they seem and people who we talked to 2 months ago suddenly jump down our throats saying we are liars and are too stupid to understand the consequences of our actions. Because they heard one thing they didn't like. Because they don't like that it's the first thing they heard like that is representative of the whole project. It wasn't just concerns that were expressed, there were full on accusations. This is why I think the whole Twitter thing is a mistake. Would you ever, in even your worst moods, go up to your web designers because you saw they seem to be putting one section as home when you want it in the index and act as if they are trying to ruin your website? When you yourself know fuck all about Web designing? Or how the team gets organised and assigns duty and completes tasks? Again, I am not saying everyone is attacking the writers, I am saying there are already too many instances of people flying off the handle in a disproportionate manner. We don't know enough to make a judgement of the influence of this casting. We also have big examples of people being regulars and being in not even a tenth of the air time. How do you expect them to do their job (that's probably already not that great) of they have to be self conscious about others' fuck ups that they had nothing to do with. Guys, I want to be so fucking wrong about everything I said. The writers, the future of Abbie (all the characters really but especially) on the show, the fans getting what they want being something I don't want to see. I hope I am making gross overgeneralisations andi talking out of my ass because few things would make me happier to have a great show to help me relax and enjoy. nothing lifts up my spirits like a good book, movie or Tv show that retsores my faith in humanity. I just very much doubt that SH will be it. If it is bad, I hope they get done and I can enjoy those marvelous actors somewhere else instead of watching them with a frown on my face and wondering why the hell I should care. Edited July 20, 2015 by fantique 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1341145
DeLurker July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Kimberella, look at OJ's tweet July 9 about the MariellaHume facebook casting call. He says, with tongue-in-cheek, that the picture looks familiar, but he can't place it.(It's a pic of OJ with the face removed). It's a casting call for a black male stand-in for a recurring role on a supernatural crime show. Has OJ been rehired and, since it hasn't been announced yet, he's not saying anything? I'm not giving up yet. Can I sit with you? Because this would be my happy place. Subsequent posts crashed my hopes and shattered my icy brittle heart... If they're interested in having people focus on the story they want to tell, maybe they should talk a little more about the story they want to tell, less about how totally hot their new character is, and not all all about how much she resembles a (totally hot) character in a completely different genre. Because no, the new writers weren't there for season 2, but they also weren't there for season 1. I don't think they can count on anyone to assume that they get what went wrong if their PR is clumsy. When you have an existing, talented cast, why would you focus attention on a yet-to-be seen character? I think the audience will only care about Betsy Ross in the context of her moving SH's two Witnesses story/stories forward. If having John Noble on cast doesn't garner you ratings by virtue of him being John Fucking Noble, I fail to see how having Nikki Reed is a headline worthy achievement. Frankly, I never heard of her before this casting. On looks alone, I'd assign the sexy adjective to Nicole or Lyndie before Nikki. This show has always been bad at PR because even in season 1 when they had better ratings they still sucked at it Orlando Jones was their best marketing tool. They could have let the entire PR Department go and just used him. I'm going to believe that these releases, as tone deaf as some of them are, is part of a plan to keep people talking about SH in the break. I am going to believe that it is deliberate intent to generate discussion, even dissension, among the fans. And now if you'll excuse me I have to go find my unicorn and take her to the four leaf clover field to graze. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1341549
HalcyonDays July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Nooooo, you are not. At least that's not my perception. I see more sunshine than anything :P Really? Man, this show is messing me up more than I thought! Honestly, I'm just trying to come at this with a logical outlook. Also, I am actually really curious how season 3 is going to unfold and what they think will "fix" it. If I truly felt done, I wouldn't even be posting here. Most other TV shows I gave up on, it was just a sudden decision. I just stopped watching. I'm sorry. Please don't die, HalcyonDays! [Refrains from staying "Stay with me", which is a sure-fire way to make people die] It's okay hun! *crushinghug* For most of us, this show means/has meant something very special to us. This is why we are all here losing out minds over a bloody TV show and getting angry and passionate about the situation. We actually care, it means something to us. I am excited about the next seasons of Walking Dead, X-Files, Gotham, HTGAWM and TURN, and I post in those threads, but I am very passionate and most focused on SH, as you can all see. The rest, I'll watch the promos and previews and will read the spoilers (from here), but it's one here I'm debating and analyzing everything about this show. Oh, forgot to say thanks to you and cynic for the clarification about the cross-over. I thought it would only be one show, not both. Honestly, if they do it right, I can see a good comedic episode (thinks X-Files). I'm cool with it. Just wondering how they will do it. Someone said that on Bones, SH was referenced by a character DVRing the TV show, so not sure how they will do this. It's obvious no such briefing took place. I think it took place, but it didn't have the benefits of pages and pages of forum and twitter and tumblr comments. The writers and actors are in their own little writing room /filming vacuum. When they checked social media, they got inundated with thousands of tweets and probably were like, "the hell happene?". They are going to read a few, give up, mention it the the rest of the vacuum occupants and that's it. Even if they asked Orlando, he may not have been 100% blunt with them. Remember it took a while for them to respond, get a sense of what was happening. Has OJ been rehired and, since it hasn't been announced yet, he's not saying anything? I'm not giving up yet. Sorry to burst your bubble, but he's just going to appear in the first episode. They need closure for Irving, tell the audience he moved somewhere. It would be absolutely cruel for them to mess with us on something like this. When you have an existing, talented cast, why would you focus attention on a yet-to-be seen character? Because the news-worthy stuff designed to grab you is always released closer to premiere. There is still 2.5 months to go. Lots of time. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1341811
DearEvette July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 (edited) This show has always been bad at PR because even in season 1 when they had better ratings they still sucked at it I think in S1 they had no idea what they had. The expectations were low, but when the ratings started rolling in they did do some pretty good PR for the show. Before the show started they did that real charming Fox media lounge thing with Tom & Nicole. In January of S1 Tom & Nicole had that cool TV Guide cover. In March was the SAG foundation Q&A with Tom, Nicole, Lyndie & Orlando. In April they did Paleyfest. Between S1 & S2 is where the good PR really took off. Early June last year was when Tom and Nicole did that Q&A thingy at the cemetery. They did that Hitfix interview, that infamous LA Times interview (the one where the interviewer said they had no chemistry and where Tom coined the phrase 'Keep it Beharie'). They had the Emmy Magazine cover ...they were everywhere and that was before SDCC. And then the awesome poster hit. They were saturating us with Tom & Nicole goodness as early as June 3rd. last year. And because we were getting so much good Tom and Nicole face time, and Tom was saying how Ichabbie shippers would be happy, people weren't even thinking too hard about Katrina. And the lag time between the end of S1 and the publicity of S2 was very, very short. Also, even more interesting, the first casting news of Matt Barr as Hawley came out in May 2014. Here's the TVline article here: http://tvline.com/2014/05/27/sleepy-hollow-season-2-cast-matt-barr-bounty-hunter/ Notice how different the tone is from Sexy Betsy Ross' casting notice. Sure Hawley was being talked up as being rugged and attractive but he is there as a part of the Team. To Aid Ichabod and Abbie. Big contrast with how they sold SBR. So yeah the fuckwittery of S2 did way more than just damage the storyline, it created all sorts of ripples that hurt the show. Edited July 20, 2015 by DearEvette 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1342034
jhlipton July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 I think it took place, but it didn't have the benefits of pages and pages of forum and twitter and tumblr comments. The writers and actors are in their own little writing room /filming vacuum. When they checked social media, they got inundated with thousands of tweets and probably were like, "the hell happene?". They are going to read a few, give up, mention it the the rest of the vacuum occupants and that's it. E You know what I would have done if I was in charge. Put #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter in huge letters above the main board, so that's the first thing they see when they look there. It's not like it was easy to miss -- 75% of those "pages and pages of forum and twitter and tumblr comments" would have it. In fact, if Campbell or Jackson would post "We hear you: #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter", it would go a tremendous way toward healing the rift. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1342301
HalcyonDays July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Here you go, kiddos. Told you more casting announcements coming up. This is just one for a stand-in but it's not for Orlando. Note the height required. Anyone recognize the actor by chance? In a few weeks, we'll get the casting announcement for whoever this character will be. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1342520
blixie July 20, 2015 Share July 20, 2015 Ha well I hate to speculate when three quarters of their face is hidden,but he kind of looks like Richard T. Jones. WHO I LOVE. But I have no other guess. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1342619
jhlipton July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 Jackson is clueless, Hint # 57: If he had Tweeted this:http://nerdist.com/exclusive-boom-studios-reveals-sleepy-hollow-providence-miniseries/ he wouldn't have had near so much trouble! I’m a massive Jenny fan, and she has done some badass things on the show, but out of necessity a lot of her exploits happen off-screen. She’s had a long history of retrieving artifacts for Corbin, living in this Indiana Jones-y world of black-market magical items, and we get to lean into that. Meanwhile, Abbie’s had time for a deep breath and a hard look at the world she’s been protecting. In the pilot, she had a father figure, friends in the department, an ex-boyfriend, and an acceptance letter to Quantico—a lived-in life. She had prospects and roots in her community. And one by one the battle against Evil has stripped those things from her. She got her sister back in the process, and she’d trade the world for that, but maybe, just maybe, she doesn’t have to. She’s got to learn to live among people again and remember what she’s fighting for. This guy ^^^ -- he gets it! 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1344444
Free July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 So yeah the fuckwittery of S2 did way more than just damage the storyline, it created all sorts of ripples that hurt the show. Exactly, it's just more disappointment and they had the opportunity to try and do damage control after Fox's intervention/reboot after S2. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1344983
Wynterwolf July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 (edited) Jackson is clueless, Hint # 57: If he had Tweeted this: http://nerdist.com/exclusive-boom-studios-reveals-sleepy-hollow-providence-miniseries/ he wouldn't have had near so much trouble! This guy ^^^ -- he gets it! Why, oh why didn't they wait to release the SBR casting info until AFTER this came out. This would have been a great piece to break the hiatus with. There still would have been craziness over how the casting release was worded, but it would have been so much less of a firestorm if this had been the first piece of media to come out. Edited July 21, 2015 by Wynterwolf 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1345048
HalcyonDays July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 Jackson is clueless, Hint # 57: If he had Tweeted this: http://nerdist.com/e...nce-miniseries/ he wouldn't have had near so much trouble! Yeah, I agree with that summary. The stuff mentioned would have been awesome. The comics are what the show should have been, plus some good Crane stories (I like his character a lot). Hell, apparently they've portrayed a lot of good Ichabbie downtime and shippy moments too in the series and even did justice to K-wife. Go figure. I find it weird because the comics are official to the series, so it's like that stuff that happened in them, happened on the show (behind the scenes). So strange. I'll say it again. Season 2 was ruined by Goffman's obsession with She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, and his inability to world build and understand continuity. I'm gonna give Campbell and his new writers a chance to see if they have developed their SH world and what they will do with it. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1345162
DearEvette July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 Yeah, I am going to give them a chance. I am still a fan of Tom, Nicole and Lyndie and want them and the show to prosper for the right reasons. I am chalking most of this up to terrible PR. I keep remembering how people lost their shit when the plot details of 'Tempus Fugit' came out. People were calling for a boycott of the ep. Of course it turned out to be the best ep of the season. So yeah, we'll see.... Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1345235
Moonsky July 21, 2015 Share July 21, 2015 I had to remind myself to check this thread again since I don’t regularly discuss shows that I watch online during the season let alone during the off season but since I did make a couple of post a few days ago I wanted to make sure I checked what was happening with the discussion one last time before I go back on my break from discussing tv shows online at least until closer to the end of summer. I think in S1 they had no idea what they had. The expectations were low, but when the ratings started rolling in they did do some pretty good PR for the show. Before the show started they did that real charming Fox media lounge thing with Tom & Nicole. In January of S1 Tom & Nicole had that cool TV Guide cover. In March was the SAG foundation Q&A with Tom, Nicole, Lyndie & Orlando. In April they did Paleyfest. When I said that the PR for SH has always sucked, I meant in the context of how networks traditionally promote their popular shows &/or stars. Some of the promo that Tom & Nicole did before SH aired is what should be expected of any show. Before SH aired Tom, Nicole, & Orlando appeared together at SDCC to talk about what people should expect from a show that the public hadn’t seen yet like other shows & movies do at Comic-con. They also did some press with media that was there plus took publicity shots to help promote it. That’s the type of bare minimum promo that is expected for shows that attend those types of events. I do believe that FOX was surprised at the beginning of season 1 at how fast this “weird & wacky” show caught on with so many viewers but once they renewed it for a season 2 after its first few episodes, they should have been promoting it not necessarily to the same extent as what they are doing for Empire but in a somewhat similar way for what was their previous breakout hit a year before. Empire got even better ratings in its season 1 for FOX than SH did, so Empire’s better media coverage than SH after its season 1 is to be expected but the difference between the media coverage for both shows from when they both became hits was the way FOX decided to promote them from that point on. The media coverage for Empire has been constant since it became a hit & everyone from the stars of the shows all the way down to people who played recurring characters have made multiple appearances on talk shows, awards, & at other events during the season & even after the season ended. Even though SH is in the scifi/fantasy genre during its first season it had more mainstream success than many of those shows usually get but instead of FOX taking real advantage of that, most of those events that the cast attended were a lot of times promoted to people who love that genre or are diehard fans of the show which is great but they should have also been trying to promote to more casual viewers, which is why FOX should have done a better job at getting the stars of the show to make appearances on talk shows, awards shows, etc. during & after season 1 ended. There were a lot of casual viewers of SH in season 1 who didn’t even know that season 2 had started weeks into its new season. There are even people who watched season 1 who till this day are surprised to find out that this show is still on the air since they thought it was cancelled after season 1 because of the lack of traditional promo from FOX after season 1 ended. Many casual viewers rely on more traditional promo methods to help remind them about a show like seeing a lot of tv commercials during the week, needing to see more ads & interviews in more mainstream magazines, hear radio interviews, see stars making talk show appearances, see stars on the red carpet during awards season, see billboard ads in different types of locations, etc. whereas fans that are more invested in a show might not need as much traditional promo to remind them that a show is still on the air (even though they might like seeing it as well) but are the types who are more likely to find info on shows they watch through social media, listen to podcast, by reading more genre based magazines that might cover a show like SH, & actively going to events like Comic-con. SH actors did not make that many tv appearances during or after seasons 1 & 2 & the majority of those appearances were done by Orlando. Tom & Nicole were supposed to be the stars of it, so FOX should have had them do more tv interviews like other shows do with their stars because there were fans who wanted to see more of them through more traditional media. Orlando is more natural in that setting so I get why he is better at it but if Tom & Nicole had been doing more of those types of interviews from the beginning, they could’ve gained a level of comfort at it much earlier in the game. FOX didn’t capitalize enough on this interest from fans when this show was at the height of its popularity. Nicole shared a cover on Essence magazine, made People magazine’s most beautiful list, Tom & Nicole started getting more notoriety for being good actors (& not for just the typical Hollywood gossipy stuff), so FOX should have kept building off of that but they didn’t go as far as they could have when it came to promoting their breakout stars. FOX had some of their other actors from lower rated shows as presenters at award shows & doing morning/late night interviews, so why not send Tom & Nicole separately or together who were actors from one of their more higher rated shows to do things like that? Could Tom & Nicole have been too busy to stop shooting during both seasons to make appearances? Maybe but many shows even with hectic schedules still find ways to get their stars to do appearances during a season. Promotion doesn’t necessarily translate into great ratings but it can help. I’ve watched talk shows & seen more interviews from actors on low ratings getting CW shows that I don't even watch than SH actors have ever gotten. A new show like The Flash (which I actually did watch) that shoots in Canada & is one of the CWs highest rated shows sent a lot of their actors throughout its first season for a day or two to the US to make appearances on a variety of shows, so even the excuse of not being in NY or LA can only go so far since SH is still shot in the US just not NY or LA. I’m not a regular FOX viewer but during season 2, I read online from some people who do watch other FOX shows say that during commercial breaks FOX even on their own network did not advertise SH as much as they did shows like Gotham, their comedies, of course Empire, & other shows. Genre shows don’t usually get as much media coverage as dramas, comedies, & these days even reality tv shows but even shows like The Flash, The Walking Dead, etc. do a better overall job at traditional forms of media than SH has done. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1345680
OakGoblinFly July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 Don't miss this: "We are all very excited to welcome Nikki Reed into the world of Sleepy Hollow," co-creator/EP Len Wiseman told THR. "Nikki's the perfect choice to bring a smart and sexy edge to our show's twisted version of American icon, Betsy Ross." Amazing! Thank god they found the right actress with the right skin color to bring a smart and sexy edge to the show, which apparently was severely lacking. Sexy edge? Don't know about the rest of you, but I think Mison and Beharie bring the sexy (and the smarts and kickass, and the snark) and the premises of the show brings the edge. The show doesn't need a sexed-up version of Bessy Ross. I'm not happy with the direction that show seems to be going in - :( 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1348832
OakGoblinFly July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) Everyone knew they were hiring Betsy, so the tantrum throwing by people on Twitter I find ridiculous. Why are people shocked they hired someone for a role that was reported they were casting. I'm glad they hired someone good, someone who has shown action type sequences in movies before. I'm actually interested in the new fresh season that we were lucky to even get. Sleepy Hollow, Bones Crossover Eyed for Spring http://tvline.com/2015/07/15/sleepy-hollow-bones-crossover-fox-blind-item/ I think the uproar is less about the casting (and I agree, Nikki Reed is a good actress) and more about the "powerful, sexy, spy, Mrs. Smite lite" version of Betsy Ross the show runners appear to be giving the audience ..... especially since the last time a "power, sexy" female was brought on as a regular it detracted from what made the show so enjoyable in the first place: namely Abbie and Icahbod dealing with the impending apocalypse ~~ at least that's true for me. Season two was all about the Crane family drama and I fear season three will be all about Crane's love affair with Betsy Ross. Why o why must shows tinker, tweak, and otherwise destroy a good thing. Edited July 22, 2015 by OakGoblinFly 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1348890
fantique July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 (edited) "We are all very excited to welcome Nikki Reed into the world of Sleepy Hollow," co-creator/EP Len Wiseman told THR. "Nikki's the perfect choice to bring a smart and sexy edge to our show's twisted version of American icon, Betsy Ross."Bolded stuff is my emphasis.BTW, anyone noticed that this state by is clearly saying that Nikki will be bringing the sexy edge to the show's version of Betsy Ross and not to the show itself? I feel like an asshole but not enough to retract my stance since the sexy edge is already putting me off. Good news though, they are not THAT stupid. Whew, my appreciation of Wiseman can continue. Edited July 22, 2015 by fantique 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1349142
blixie July 22, 2015 Share July 22, 2015 With this second announcement of yet another white woman regular I'm fucking done. DONE. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/3842-sleepy-hollow-in-the-media/page/43/#findComment-1349386
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