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maraleia

By maraleia
in Sleepy Hollow [V]

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methodwriter85

methodwriter85

If she had even a shred of integrity as both an actor and a self-respecting human being, she would just stay silent and hope to ride out the storm. That is just shameless. They also forced her to act like a puppet on strings whose only facial expressions are weepy eyes and blank stares? I didn't care one way or another about her before this but I am now officially disliking her. She needs to inhale a big dose of grace and humility. All she needed to do was to not comment and say if asked that she understood people's concerns and that she does/will do her best.

 

I am embarrassed for her, seriously. She didn't have my attention/affection before and now she doesn't have my respect. How fucking dare she? She is literally the only actor that was done favours this entire bloody season and she is throwing stones. I hope everyone she ever works with remembers that attitude. Disgusting.

 

This times a thousand. It speaks volumes, and I mean VOLUMES, that Katia Winter bit the hands of the writers that fed her and petted her all season long while Nicole and Tom, who both got screwed over by seeing their show go from a surefire hit to losing 30-40 percent of their audience, basically said nothing. I can't believe the gall of this bitch to try and throw the people that wanted to turn her into a star under the bus.

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jenrising
jenrising
cynic
cynic

Oh, I have no doubt that Beharie wanted to leave. My issue is the laying of blame at Beharie for wanting to leave without considering why she wanted to leave. It was pretty clear two and a half years

Badsamaritan
Badsamaritan

I don't believe a word from FOX. Look how they treated Orlando Jones, by far their biggest cheerleader. And the fact that he has still been supporting Nicole tells me he knows what the fuck really hap

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DearEvette

DearEvette

(edited)

I my conspiracy soul feels like dump the writers under the bus (it's all the writers fault) is publicist's idea that must have been being noised around unnoticed by me. 'Cause having that interaction on Twitter and one week later having the KW Twitter with the same message seems coincidental - but I'm from the 60's so conspiracy theories are easy for me

 

Ha! In that case she needs to fire her PR team.  Because the first rule of fight club is you don't talk about fight club... er I mean, you don't cast blame ever.  Either you reply with some perfectly bland 'Sleepy Hollow fans are the greatest and I love how much you support Katrina' or you pull an Orlando Jones, establish your cred as a member of the fandom and learn how to deliver your criticism via shade that sounds like comedy.  But you don't respond this way which simultaneously sounds like a 'woe is me' and a 'I am doing the best I can.'

Edited by DearEvette
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TwistedandBored

TwistedandBored

I can't believe I am saying this but I honestly think Katia Winter should have just been more political with her response. Timing is everything!!! This was not and is not the time to thrown stones in this fandom especially if they think your character has been getting special treatments. Defend yourself later when the show ends for good or is in a haitus and coming back. 

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

Can someone remind me where it was mentioned that

the last two episodes were written with Abbie in mind?

Was it in an interview?

 

Goffman mentioned it in some print interview recently, maybe even around the hashtag fallout and the scrambling by the writers. You never know though -

maybe Abbie and/or Jenny will be among the people awakened by the witch spell.

There was mention of implications for Abbie...

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Sepia

Sepia

Goffman mentioned it in some print interview recently, maybe even around the hashtag fallout and the scrambling by the writers. You never know though -

maybe Abbie and/or Jenny will be among the people awakened by the witch spell.

There was mention of implications for Abbie...

Thanks, I remember something about it being said. Although I wonder how Goffman phrased it. Since he has a background in politics (I think), I try to pay attention how he phrases things. And your spoiler was something that I felt might happen,

because of the pictures Nicole tweeted with her hair in an upswept afro (and the pics that happened to be on the wall behind her)

HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

Thanks, I remember something about it being said. Although I wonder how Goffman phrased it. Since he has a background in politics (I think), I try to pay attention how he phrases things. And your spoiler was something that I felt might happen,

because of the pictures Nicole tweeted with her hair in an upswept afro (and the pics that happened to be on the wall behind her)

 

I found the article that mentioned it.  Sleepy Hollow Mid Season Post Mortem. It's around the middle of the article, when he was asked about the Mama episode.

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Timetoread

Timetoread

io9 review of Kali Yuga.

 

Loved their summary:

This was definitely the television equivalent of someone grabbing the wheel from the passenger seat and crossing four lanes of traffic to get the right exit. On the other hand, we needed to get off that road somehow

 

LOL.  I came here to post this very article because it NAILED IT!

Yolapukka

Yolapukka

(edited)

Back to the Goffman interview, one thing that makes me uncomfortable about the upcoming finale is this statement;

"I think it will give Abbie a completely different and new understanding of the world. And I think that’s really exciting for us and the character."

 

 

Does anyone who enjoys Abbie find this a promising notion? I don't.  Abbie has always seemed like a remarkably clear-eyed character and she took on a "completely different and new understanding of the world" when she met Ichabod, encountered the horseman and lost Corbin. She has constantly demonstrated that she has the mental nimbleness and inner strength to accommodate enormous paradigm shifts, to check her assumptions at the door and to adjust to new information without it changing who she is. So either what is being written for her is par for the course or she is going to be tested by something that changes who she is. Which sounds... not awesome. The struggle-witch is an enormous mess because despite all the time spent on presenting her character, Goffman still has no clue who she is or how to depict that consistently and now he may plan to inject that ambiguity into Abbie as well.

 

ETA; That Akeda still from the article never fails to piss me off when I see it. Of all the moments they could have chosen to highlight, they picked a group shot where the wigstand is central and foremost to the point where the rest of the cast, including the leads are barely recognizable in the darkened background.

Edited by yuggapukka
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Indi

Indi

No, you're right. That sentence set off all the alarms the first time I read it. In fact, I imagined a scenario similar to "Katrina was right", in which Abbie would crawl back to the Cranes to apologize and defer to them willingly. I'm sorry, but Goffman doesn't like Abbie as the leading lady, so something tells me he'll do his best to undermine her or change the character into something more to his taste: vague and wishy washy. The only hope I have is that the network has been monitoring the final episodes.

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BigEasygirl

BigEasygirl

Nothing about that synopsis indicates Abbie will be a focus. There's still way too much Katrina focus in these upcoming episodes and I'm not here for that. At this point I don't care whether she's good or evil. I'm tired of her and just want her killed off.

Agreed.  It's too little too late.  Katrina dead is non-negotiable for me.  Hopefully, they've made her evil so she's expendable and Ichy won't have to waste a lot of time grieving for her.  As for Abbie being the central focus of two episodes, I'll believe that when I see it.  Unless someone shows me a picture of a FOX executive standing behind Goffman (typing on his laptop) with a gun to his head as he wrote the last two epis, I just can't buy that he'll do right be Abbie.  This season alone provides too much evidence to the contrary.  I guess we'll see.

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jhlipton

jhlipton

Does anyone who enjoys Abbie find this a promising notion? I don't.  Abbie has always seemed like a remarkably clear-eyed character and she took on a "completely different and new understanding of the world" when she met Ichabod, encountered the horseman and lost Corbin. 

 

Not to mention "Sandman" when she realized Jennie was right.  "Sandman" completely changed the way she viewed everything: Moloch, the Apocolypse, her sister, every damn thing.  

So, no, I dont find "I think it will give Abbie a completely different and new understanding of the world. And I think that’s really exciting for us and the character." to be a positive statement -- it's someone who hasn't the foggiest idea of her journey.

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evilmindatwork

evilmindatwork

Goffman fails to realize that television viewers pay more attention to what you say then whoever listens to government and policy speeches.

 

I just don't have faith in this show anymore. I had no intention of giving up on Sleepy Hollow but  I can't make myself watch the last episode so I think I am out. Television shouldn't be a chore. 

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MissAlmond

MissAlmond

The AfterBuzz review link:

 

 

 

   I wish they would provide transcripts of this shows because they go on entirely too long for me.  I wwas really curious about what Jacque was trying to say during the Irving conversation, but that one guy kept shutting her down and I grew tired of listening to find out if they ever came back to it.  And why is it i09 knew and addressed FOX stepping in (loved the driving across four lanes for the right exit line!)  while AfterBuzz seemed (apparently) clueless about it?

 

Here's a link Orlando Jones Tumblr.  Loved the whole Kumabya bit!

 

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MissAlmond

MissAlmond

(edited)

Also, an interesting recent tweet from Mark Goffman; I'm pretty sure the "network cut" is for SH.  Remember, that earlier interview was before FOX went public.  After that, other than rooting on the show, Goffman has been rather silent.  This new tweet makes my newly formed suspicion that the Season 2 changes came from above even stronger.  Either that, or Goffman is still using his political skills.  Say what you will about the man, he has the skills to continue to eat lunch in Hollywood.

 

 

mark goffman @markgoffman  ·  13h 13 hours ago

delivering network cut of the finale tomorrow. then cleansing, shaving and starting my tell-all book -- to be published in 232 years.
 

Edited by MissAlmond
RiddleyWalker

RiddleyWalker

The last thing I want to read - now or in the next couple of centuries - is Goffman's take on things!

 

I am imagining it will have a Harlequin worthy cover featuring Goffman and Katia Winter.

Agreed! No interest in Goffman's take but that Tweet sounds like he might recognize he's on the chopping block... (I can only hope!)

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jhlipton

jhlipton

Stop tryna’ redeem evil white folks, kumbaya

 

re Headless with #RenewSleepyHollow sign: 

Do as he says so our last memory of him is not as some lovesick puppy but rather a bad ass with an ax and machine gun (and WITHOUT a head).

Tagged: Renew Sleepy Hollow, And Then We'll All Celebrate, With Some Riunite On Ice, Riunite So Nice, Riunite Riunite.

And the tags for his Underoos:

No, This Is Not, From An 'Adult Film', I HAD To Make, When The Movie Roles, Started Drying Up, In The Early 2000s, Why Would Y'All, Even Say That Hurtful Ish, Can't A Man, Just Dress In What's Comfortable, Without Being Judged, ISTFG!!!.

LOL

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MissAlmond

MissAlmond

(edited)

He's probably gone but I would read that BTS book.  As I've stated in other posts, I'm beginning to believe the Season 2 misfirings wasn't only Goffman and Goffman alone.  Example - Orci himself said this after Season 1:

 

 

What does Headless want with Katrina?
Orci: All of us hope that no matter how bad we get, we can somehow be redeemed by the love of another person. No matter how evil he gets, I think it's either redemption through her saying, "I was right," or I'm going to make her suffer for the rest of her life. In terms of the master plan, certainly she's the object of Crane's lifelong affection. Assuming that things don't go correctly and that Crane doesn't die in that box, it's good to have a little bit of an insurance policy against one of the witnesses.

 

 

and Kurtzman:

 

“Katrina will become extraordinarily pivotal to many, many things on the show,” Kurtzman previewed. “And now that the audience is invested in her through the flashbacks — where, really, we’ve gotten more time understanding her character and knowing she isn’t just throwing out half-baked riddles every week for them to run in circles — she’s really a woman who loves her husband and has a fiery personality that a lot of people, we’re gratified to see, are starting to really like. And the more we invest in her, the higher the stakes become.

 

 

 Sound familiar?  Thank goodness FOX stepped in because I'm beginning to believe they were all singing and dancing down the Yellow Brick Katrina Road until FOX, and plunging ratings, reminded them there's no place like Season One Ichabbie. 

Edited by MissAlmond
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DJG1122

DJG1122

He's probably gone but I would read that BTS book.  As I've stated in other posts, I'm beginning to believe the Season 2 misfirings wasn't only Goffman and Goffman alone.  Example - Orci himself said this after Season 1:

 

 

 

and Kurtzman:

 

 

 Sound familiar?  Thank goodness FOX stepped in because I'm beginning to believe they were all singing and dancing down the Yellow Brick Katrina Road until FOX, and plunging ratings, reminded them there's no place like Season One Ichabbie.

This and Katia Winter's 2/4/2014 UK interview where she said she had been talking to Mark Goffman AND Alex Kurtzman about her S2

role.

DearEvette

DearEvette

Ha!  Reading that Kurtzman quote is now so laughable. 

 

- “And now that the audience is invested in her"  <--- since when has the audience ever been invested in her?  Curious? Yes.  Frustrated? Hell yes!  But invested?

- "fiery personality"  <---  Fiery is not how I would described the personality that was displayed on the show.

-  "And the more we invest in her, the higher the stakes become."  <--- Yeah by investing in her so much the stakes became really high for the show.  Like cancellation threat high.

 

And given that Aaron Biers pretty much admitted the Katrina arc was something they wanted to try out and did not catch on with the audience the way they wanted, I am not surprised that Orci/Kurtzman was part of it.   But I still think Goffmann as showrunner bears a lot of the responsibility for the actual execution of it.

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HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

What does Headless want with Katrina?

Orci: All of us hope that no matter how bad we get, we can somehow be redeemed by the love of another person. No matter how evil he gets, I think it's either redemption through her saying, "I was right," or I'm going to make her suffer for the rest of her life. In terms of the master plan, certainly she's the object of Crane's lifelong affection. Assuming that things don't go correctly and that Crane doesn't die in that box, it's good to have a little bit of an insurance policy against one of the witnesses.

 

That is really interesting, this response by Orci in hindsight. The things that stood out, the "I was right." part. Haven't we heard this repeated over and over again. 'Katrina was right." and the whole focus on redemption.

 

“Katrina will become extraordinarily pivotal to many, many things on the show,” Kurtzman previewed. “And now that the audience is invested in her through the flashbacks — where, really, we’ve gotten more time understanding her character and knowing she isn’t just throwing out half-baked riddles every week for them to run in circles — she’s really a woman who loves her husband and has a fiery personality that a lot of people, we’re gratified to see, are starting to really like. And the more we invest in her, the higher the stakes become.

 

Well, I was never invested during the flashbacks. I thought they dragged the whole show down. And instead of half-baked riddles, she did half-baked magic. And they did run in circles - rescue Katrina, she goes back to Headless, rescue Katrina, she goes back. Redeem Henry, maybe not, redeem Henry, maybe not. Fiery personality - I've only seen it a few times - there should have been many more examples of it.

 

See? And now in Winter's most recent interview, where she throws the writers under the bus, she says she's learning to speak up and that she has already talked to the producers... the same ones she talked with for her role in S2.

 

Earlier in the season, there were a ton of behind-the-scenes pictures released that showed the writers and Winter at a bar or something, writing and discussing stuff. The description indicated that Katia was talking to the writers about her storylines, where it was to go.

 

This is why both Mison and Beharie have been smart with their twitters. Beharie, barely says anything except a few shoutouts to fans. Mison, nothing. Avoiding social media with reference to criticing ones job is the right decision. Orlando gets away with it, because he's a comedian and shades everyone and was doing it from day 1, so its not such a glaring change. She really should have said nothing.

 

mark goffman @markgoffman  ·  13h 13 hours ago

delivering network cut of the finale tomorrow. then cleansing, shaving and starting my tell-all book -- to be published in 232 years

 

The final cut is definitely for SH episode 18. I kinda of read this as Goffman is just glad it's over, and also thinly veiled message to fans. 232 obviously references how "old' Ichabod is (how many years between when he was buried and woke up." The clensing and shaving, I think because he tends to have stubble and some fans have negatively commented on it and it's percieved hygiene of it. .(C'mon stubble is awesome!").

Yolapukka

Yolapukka

 

  And given that Aaron Biers pretty much admitted the Katrina arc was something they wanted to try out and did not catch on with the audience the way they wanted, I am not surprised that Orci/Kurtzman was part of it.   But I still think Goffmann as showrunner bears a lot of the responsibility for the actual execution of it.

 

I think the piss-poor writing for her is squarely on the shoulders of Goffman. I wouldn't have a problem with an "arc" for  Katrina if it was an actual arc, with a beginning, middle and end rather than an introduction that effectively repositioned her to lead. Also, if they were so damn determined for us to love her, why did they need to make her so bloody boring and useless? Speaking for myself, I can't stand her, I never really liked her in season one, but I was open to changing my mind. They blew their chance big-time.

 

 

I wish I could locate it, but if I recall correctly Kurtzman and Orci also stated they planned to incorporate other mythologies into the show, so that notion was always present. However, I don't know whether that meant they also planned to dispose of the biblical apocalypse as the central source of conflict. There was reference to a long term multi-season story tied to it, so I kind of doubt their notion of "other mythologies" added up to eliminating the starting conceit of the show.

ChelseaNH

ChelseaNH

The things that stood out, the "I was right." part. Haven't we heard this repeated over and over again. 'Katrina was right."

 

I thought that the "I was right" was from the Horseman's perspective -- getting validation from Katrina saying he was right about something.  Because how is the Horseman validated by Katrina being right about something?

HalcyonDays

HalcyonDays

I thought that the "I was right" was from the Horseman's perspective -- getting validation from Katrina saying he was right about something.  Because how is the Horseman validated by Katrina being right about something?

 

I took it like this. From the actual quote, my modification in bold: "All of us hope that no matter how bad we (Abraham or Henry) get, we (Abraham/Henry) can somehow be redeemed by the love of another person. No matter how evil he (Abraham or Henry) gets, I think it's either redemption through her (Katrina) saying, "I was right," (they can be redeemed) or I'm (Abraham or Henry) going to make her (Katrina) suffer for the rest of her (Katrina's) life"

 

The "I was right" is Katrina saying that. At least that's how I intrepreted it. Especially since to me, this has been almost spot-on portrayed in the show.

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cassandle

cassandle

- “And now that the audience is invested in her"  <--- since when has the audience ever been invested in her?  Curious? Yes.  Frustrated? Hell yes!  But invested?

 

Well, to be fair we've been invested in her hopeful death, and making fun of her terrible wig and whispering, and hating everything about her....  So he's not technically wrong--just deluded ;)

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ChelseaNH

ChelseaNH

I took it like this.

 

Okay.  My version:

 

What does Headless want with Katrina?
Orci: All of us (generic) hope that no matter how bad we (generic) get, we (generic) can somehow be redeemed by the love of another person. No matter how evil he (Headless) gets, I (Orci) think it's either redemption through her (Katrina) saying, "I (Headless) was right," or I'm (Headless) going to make her suffer for the rest of her (Katrina) life.

Yolapukka

Yolapukka

 

I'm conflicted about if it's Headless saying he was right - right about what? That he could be redeemed through K's love?

 

I think the heart of the matter is the original statement was so poorly worded that there is no accurate way to interpret it other than speculation. It is so inherently unclear that I'm not even sure if Orci would be certain as to what he was trying to say.

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RiddleyWalker

RiddleyWalker

(edited)

OK, OK! 

 

After reading the many insightful and thoughtful comments regarding Kurtzman's likely involvement in the destruction of SH, I would willingly read Goffman's book. Not only that, I'd buy the book to read his account of this. The thing  is, I can't wait 232 years. So now that you've cleaned up and shaved...start writing Goffman! ;)

ETA: Not that I'd buy in to his account, but his story of what went wrong would be an interesting piece of the puzzle.

Edited by RiddleyWalker
MissAlmond

MissAlmond

(edited)

Me?  I think Goffman’s tweet was a message to fans (yes, I'm leaving) AND to K/O.

 

We have evidence K/O were going down the Katrina/Henry redemption story.  They are the big boys in charge.  They also apparently believed SH audience was fully invested in Katrina’s character.  They adore John Noble. So let’s play What If’s.

 

What If given this mandate Goffman was the “closer” which is why all his interviews were Katrina, Katrina, Katrina.  What If, when things started to go downhill fast, Goffman’s political instincts kicked in and he double down hard.  That’s the advice I could see him giving a political candidate.  One episode led to another episode to still another and another one in an effort to make Katrina and her redemption of Henry work.  What If that was Goffman's real obsession  (you "will" trust me, I'm the showrunner, I know what the producers want and I'm the man to do it!  So let's explain this once again) and that's why everything and everybody else was pushed aside.  Things stayed this way until FOX - remember it wasn’t K/O - put an end to it.

 

So What If that tweet means Goffman was relieved with FOX’s intervention and has now cleansed himself of the show and the vision he was told to sell the audience.  But he wants K/O to remember that, while he’ll play the fall guy for them, he knows where the bodies are buried so don’t screw with his career.

 

Anyway . . ..  In other twitter news, Aaron Baier tweeted this back on January 26.  I've read some fans are trying to interpret what his icons mean in regards to the finale.  I'm done with my What If musings over Goffman's tweets and ready to play a SH round of Clue. 

 

abaiers @abaiers  ·  Jan 26

Just watched the first cut of #SleepyHollow Season 2 finale and my HEAD and HEART exploded. ‼

 

 

ETA - ok, I have no idea where the damn icons went.  If somebody better than me knows who to screen capture tweets, please do so to let the games begin LOL. 

Edited by MissAlmond
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