Speculation Without Spoilers Theories

[whiporee]

I think the key, though, is that Phillip appreciates America much more than Elizabeth. Remember in the second or third episode, when Reagan was shot? Elizabeth was preparing for guerliia warfare, but Phillip said that America doesn't work that way. To paraphrase, he said that one of the Soviet leaders dies, they don't hear about it for weeks. In America there's a smooth transition.

 

I had been toying with the thought that Pastor Groovyhair was actually setting up to be Paige's handler, but I'd forgotten about the opiate of the masses. And that might really turn out to be a major issue for Paige, who is now up to her head in Baptist dogma. 

 

But I think there might be a thing here where Phillip seriously thinking about making a run. I know I would be, 

[kikaha]

I just can't imagine if the countries were flipped and Philip was a tired CIA-man who wanted to quit and never said much about US-style democracy we'd assume that he was now Soviet or royalist or whatever.

One big difference is that your imaginary CIA man would not typically want to retire and live in the sunny Soviet Union.  He would probably want to get as far away from the place as possible.  If he DID want to stay in the USSR, then I would very much question his political loyalties. 

 

I mostly agree with ruby in this, and for the reasons she gave.  Phillip was ready and willing to defect.  He wants Paige to have her own life, even if that means embracing something diametrically opposed (at least on the surface) to communist ideology. 

 

All that horrifies Elizabeth: it contradicts core communist values.  Phillip has internalized it.

 

He still does his job.  But I believe major cracks have appeared in his belief system.  Definitely real interested to see how this, and the various other plots and themes, play out. 

[sistermagpie]

I think the key, though, is that Phillip appreciates America much more than Elizabeth. Remember in the second or third episode, when Reagan was shot? Elizabeth was preparing for guerliia warfare, but Phillip said that America doesn't work that way. To paraphrase, he said that one of the Soviet leaders dies, they don't hear about it for weeks. In America there's a smooth transition.

 

 

Yes, I remembered that. He clearly doesn't see America through the eyes of propaganda and he has more cultural understanding of the US than Elizabeth does--he's in general more empathetic about people different than he is than she is too. I think he absolutely sees good things in the American system. But does that mean he thinks the Contras should win in Nicaragua?

 

One big difference is that your imaginary CIA man would not typically want to retire and live in the sunny Soviet Union.  He would probably want to get as far away from the place as possible.  If he DID want to stay in the USSR, then I would very much question his political loyalties.

 

 

 

What if the guy's family was in the USSR with no interest in moving to the US? (Not every Russian longs to live elsewhere.) He'd be happy to retire to the US, but the retirement option that presents itself would be in the USSR? He hasn't been in the US for 20 years and his life is elsewhere. 

 

It's a given that life in the US is easier. Let's face it, if Elizabeth was sent back to the USSR tomorrow she would *not* be as happy as she believes she would be. But that's not the whole story. Philip presumably would like everyone to have a life of relative comfort--he doesn't necessarily think the way to that is capitalism. If Elizabeth is the model for what a socialist has to be then there are a lot of Americans who are not capitalists because they support or have supported socialist programs. (Hell, Stan Beeman came pretty close to handing over Echo technology to the Soviets for Nina, which implies some disinterest in his own cause.)

 

I just think "America" is seen as this neutral state that characters default to whenever they're not actively railing against it and it's more complicated than that. Movements aren't all made up of the zealots with zero-tolerance policy like Elizabeth.

 

Philip's desire to defect in the pilot is obviously important and says that there are things in his life more important than the cause--he's very open about that. But I don't see a story with Philip where he's struggling with the core values of Socialism.  Really, what we're disagreeing about is what it means to no longer believe in a cause. You need more overt passion for socialism and more hatred of capitalism for believing in the cause. I need more passion for capitalism and opposition to socialism for no longer believing in the cause. 

[RedHawk]

I am so hoping that something will happen to expose Pastor Tim's cunning, ego-driven behavior in a way that opens Paige's eyes and shatters her "faith" in him. It may not happen this season but I really want to see it one day.

[PinkRibbons]

I'm guessing Paige is going to get to the edge of doing something drastic, only to be stopped by her Grandmother's death. I can imagine Elizabeth having a breakdown over it and Paige being there with her. The thought of losing a mother may give her a different perspective. Plus as I said in the episode thread, she really needs to see how human her parents are or she could fall into the trap of turning them into cartoon villains.

[sistermagpie]

If I were Paige I would probably start referring to my parents as "B & N" in my diary immediately. 

[Loandbehold]

I agree with sistermagpie. Philip continues killing and obtaining evidence for the cause. While some things  bother him, like seducing Kimmy, he doesn't rebel against his orders except where Paige is concerned. If he had so rejected the Soviet Union orthodoxy, he could have turned himself into the CIA or FBI and be used as a double agent, deliberately passing along false and misleading information to Centre. Buying a new car or an album for his daughter does not make him a capitalist. Even Elizabeth wanted to buy Paige a bracelet for her birthday. And, I think it's pretty clear that Elizabeth is still a big believer in the cause. I don't think he wants to kill Martha, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did it. Of course, I can also see Elizabeth doing it so he doesn't have to.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Loandbehold

[RedHawk]

If I were Paige I would probably start referring to my parents as "B & N" in my diary immediately.

 

 

Ha ha! She is the right age to know that reference.

 

I'm guessing Paige is going to get to the edge of doing something drastic, only to be stopped by her Grandmother's death.

At first I thought, no, Elizabeth won't tell Paige, but then yes she might because Paige has been so bothered by having no family. 

 

I'm also still wondering what Elizabeth's mother said in the last cassette. We saw her receive one from Gabriel, when she asked, "Is she...?" and he said, "No, she's a fighter. Like you." We never saw E listening to it though.

Edited April 3, 2015 by RedHawk

[ToastnBacon]

You may want to scoot over to wikipedia which lists the episode titles, and look at the title for the season finale. And then look up (also in wikipedia - just search for that date to see what significant events took place) what Reagan did on that date.

Outstanding!

Thank you for that!

[ToastnBacon]

I would like to see the series end with the collapse of the USSR.

They could jump ahead in time to do it, all they need is a montage.

Damn! Now I have that stupid montage song from team America stuck in my head.

Even Rocky had a montage.

[Mindymoo]

Damn! Now I have that stupid montage song from team America stuck in my head.

Even Rocky had a montage.

Don't feel bad, I always sing "The Americans, fuck yeah!" when the show is about to start.

[TimWil]

I'm not sure the KAL 007 flight will even be covered because of the very fact it happened in August 1983 and all episodes of The Americans seem to take place from fall to late winter!

Have they ever addressed what the Jennings' actually do on Christmas Day? Do they go out for Chinese food?

I think that the grandmother's impending death will play out big time. Maybe Philip and Elizabeth will take Paige to meet her somewhere before she dies? Perhaps a Soviet satellite like Hungary or Czechoslovakia which wasn't considered a hardline socialist state?

Edited April 3, 2015 by TimWil

[sistermagpie]

I could almost see a final season with Elizabeth and Paige being the zealous, super-spies and Phillip taking Henry away from it, and defecting.  He could be faced with an almost Sophie's Choice type situation.

 

 

A lot of people assume that kind of split it coming, but to me it seems like Philip always seems to instinctively choose Elizabeth and keeping the family together. I can't really see Paige having a reason to become so into the USSR and Communism that she's a hardliner like violent Elizabeth. At this point she's still even turned off by breaking any laws.

 

In fact, while Philip seems to have the longterm ability to stick with Elizabeth and continue spying, Elizabeth also seems to actually recognize on some level that it's okay that she has softer feelings. She may have been full speed ahead on the recruitment early in the season, but that was also when it was in the abstract and even Gabriel pointed out that she wasn't exactly being pushy about it. She hasn't even yet dealt with the feelings she must be repressing over her own mother's enthusiastic bon voyage to her. For all her hardline stance, she was asking Philip if he hated her after the reveal. They were coming together on their stances more than moving to opposite extremes. Neither of them doubts that the other loves their kids and wants what's best for them.

 

I was thinking about the upcoming (historically) evil empire speech, and that seems like an obvious watershed moment. Someone was talking about it recently and saying there Reagan was basically calling out the No Nukes Evangelical Alliance by saying that the Soviets were an evil empire so yes, Nukes, as long as they were ours. And they felt that his speech worked--after that the Evangelical movement in general stopped and it became a strictly leftist thing.

 

So I wonder if Paige is going to feel like she has to choose. Not between being a Soviet Spy and a Christian, but in how she might relate to a religion that's going that way. Pastor Tim might remain an outlier and reject Reagan's message (he certainly doesn't seem like he'd be a Reagan fan). I can just see Paige listening to somebody explaining that in order to be a good American she had to be okay with the possibility of nuking her parents because she's evil and feeling like she has to find her own way.

 

Especially because Philip, in particular, obviously is the type of person who is in it to avoid a war and protect people more than because he thinks America needs to be destroyed so everyone can be part of the Soviet Union. In that he's a lot like the Colonel from season 1, a loyal American who sold secrets to the Soviets because he thought it was in the interest of the US to avoid this heightened arms race (Philip withheld info from the Soviets in In Control for similar reasons). He doesn't want Paige to have to choose between being an American and being their daughter, and while Elizabeth is more harsh in her criticism of the US I think she likes having Philip there with his different perspective. She thinks she should put the cause above everything but underneath she seems to be almost afraid of how much she longs to be loved even when she's weak.

[Guest]

A lot of people assume that kind of split it coming, but to me it seems like Philip always seems to instinctively choose Elizabeth and keeping the family together. I can't really see Paige having a reason to become so into the USSR and Communism that she's a hardliner like violent Elizabeth. At this point she's still even turned off by breaking any laws.

 

You're probably right, and this isn't going to turn into Breaking Bad 2: Paige.  I'm usually wrong on these things.  

 

I just can't imagine what direction they're going to go with all this, if not that Paige is going to start spying.  She can't realistically oppose them.  She can just be neutral or silently opposed but then what-- we get to see a sullen, resentful teen every week?  God, I hope not.  And if she's neutral, why even go there with all the religion interest and everything?  

 

Maybe she'll be quietly opposed and become more of an activist in her church and in pro-US activities, in secret.  And she'll wind up turning into what she hates about her parents (lying, crime, sneaking around, etc.), as she gets enticed to cross more and more ethical lines herself, in service of her own cause.  And the dramatic tension will be how far will the KGB let her go before they order P/E to rein her in or they do it themselves?  

[scrb]

Didn't Gabriel or one of the other handlers say the value of Paige is that she's natural born so she could infiltrate the CIA while illegals couldn't?

 

But as Paige pointed out to them, the Jennings have no aunts, uncles, any relatives.  So if the family doesn't pass the smell test to a 15-year old, how is she going to get vetted by the CIA?

 

There is no advantage to bringing Paige into the game, other than the Center wouldn't have to smuggle in new illegals and set them up with a cover story.  But how would she be trained the way P&E were in the Soviet Union, like the fighting skills?  How are P&E going to train her as well as conduct their operations and on top, run a cover travel agency business?

 

Did the Soviets really try to get children of illegals into the spy game or is the show using it as a potential rupture of P&E from their superiors?

[sistermagpie]

According to people who have passed security vets like this, Paige would pass. She has parents who have been business owners for decades, and her own citizenship is clean as a whistle. There's no reason to reject people for not having enough living relatives. Paige would have friends, former teachers, people from church like Pastor Tim.

 

She doesn't need to have the training they have--Fred didn't. She just has to get a job at the CIA or wherever and pass info. Some basic self defense moves might be useful, but she doesn't have to be Batman like her parents. Having a lowly secretary working for the FBI/CIA and passing you documents is such a valuable thing, why would they need or want to push her into anything else?

 

The Soviets did, according to some, definitely do this. Remember real Illegals didn't do the stuff P&E do anyway.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, all that is true at the current time, BUT by the time Paige is old enough to really get into a sensitive job, computers will rule the world, and the background check on Paige's parents would revel they died decades ago.  Frankly, any thorough investigator could probably find out just doing it the old fashioned way, it would just take more time.

 

They don't know that of course.

 

Yes, kids were recruited, according to the recent bust of illegals (see the real spies thread for links.)  However, their parents didn't do the things Elizabeth and Philip do, and as far as I remember, none had entered into a sensitive position, and I don't think the parents used the old "grab a name from someone who died long ago" trick either.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

I see this speculation thread, but is there one for actual Spoilers?  I'm looking for spoilers. lol

[sistermagpie]

I see this speculation thread, but is there one for actual Spoilers?  I'm looking for spoilers. lol

 

 

Yes, it's the "The Soviet Union is no more" thread. :-)

[John S]

This may have already been discussed but my question is this.

When this show is finished, what will the happy endings be? Will there be any?

If Philip and Elizabeth go back to Russia, are killed, or are put in jail, what happens to Paige and Henry? Unless Paige is 18. their ending may not be very happy. I can't see either one of them wanting to move to Russia.

Do P and E get to retire and live happily ever after in the U.S.? I  would find that hard to believe.

If Paige is left in Russia, imprisoned, and tortured into working for the Soviets, that will not be a happy ending. In fact, she will probably spend the rest of her life trying to kill her mother and possibly, her father.

 

P and E probably don't deserve a happy ending but Paige and Henry do.

The vast majority of shows, if they don't really have happy endings, at least don't have unhappy endings. Even "Justified" finished with some happier endings than expected. Sometimes shows that deal with criminals have main characters who are killed - "The Shield" and "Sons of Anarchy" are 2 that come to mind - but Paige and Henry aren't criminals.

 

If anybody has any thoughts about this, let us know.

[bluebonnet]

I think the only plausible happy ending, with all of them still alive, would be some sort of witness protection thing.  It's still unfair to the children in a lot of ways, but creating a new identity as a family where they are all aware and involved in the decision is better than most of the alternatives.  

 

I think relocation and new identity is the only way to really keep Paige and Henry from the grasp of the KGB or from constant monitoring by the US government.  However, there is still that option, though obviously Philip and Elizabeth couldn't be part of this.  I don't think there is any way that P & E get to retire into obscurity and still retain their identities.  It's hard to imagine the Center would allow this when they know pretty much everything about soviet espionage plans in the US.  

[John S]

I think the only plausible happy ending, with all of them still alive, would be some sort of witness protection thing.  It's still unfair to the children in a lot of ways, but creating a new identity as a family where they are all aware and involved in the decision is better than most of the alternatives.  

 

I think relocation and new identity is the only way to really keep Paige and Henry from the grasp of the KGB or from constant monitoring by the US government.  However, there is still that option, though obviously Philip and Elizabeth couldn't be part of this.  I don't think there is any way that P & E get to retire into obscurity and still retain their identities.  It's hard to imagine the Center would allow this when they know pretty much everything about soviet espionage plans in the US.  

There don't appear to be many scenarios where a happy ending  would be possible.

[Cardie]

The Americans has never seemed like a happy endings sort of show to me. When the Soviet Union falls, I can see Paige and Henry being able to move on with their lives as American citizens. They'll both be legal adults by then. Surely P and E will end up in prison or dead.

[bluebonnet]

There don't appear to be many scenarios where a happy ending  would be possible.

Well, no.  Of course not.  There really is zero happy ending.  This family isn't going to have P & E growng old in retirement together with their two kids going off to college, marrying sweethearts, having careers and kids and all that usual stuff.  They were never going to do that.  The closest they can get to this is some scenario where they are all together, but that means the children give up their entire identities and their current hopes and dreams for themselves to become different people.  But even that isn't exactly a happy ending.  

 

I don't think the show ever made it seem that this would end happily.  All of the characters introduced in the pilot, if they are still alive, have had to compromise is some fairly damning ways and/or they are on a crash course for destruction.  Plus, we already know that the Soviet Union will collapse and everything Philip and Elizabeth sacrificed and worked for will have been for nothing.  

[scrb]

Guess it depends on what the show runners want to do.  They consulted CIA agents so maybe they want to stay true to history and depict what typically happened to these illegals, whether they were caught or returned to the Soviet Union.

 

Or if the characters become popular, they'll feel some need to wrap things up in an upbeat note, come up with a scenario where things end well for P&E and the kids but would not be representative of history.

 

Despite all the bad things they do, the show runners seems to want P&E to be sympathetic to viewers.  Sure Elizabeth's claim that they're making the world a better place (before forcing that old woman to kill herself) or that they're helping their country (to Paige) may ring hollow.  However, she believes those claims, though she's starting to question it.  

 

Presumably she isn't some irredeemable monster because she weeped after putting the old woman down.  Or at least that's what they want the viewers to think.

 

David Chase had an unambiguous view of Tony Soprano, despite how viewers connected with the character.  Here, the show runners seem to suggest that P&E do horrible things but they're at worst misguided and they are tortured by the things they've seen and have had to do.

 

So maybe they want to send the characters off positively.

 

It would probably be easier to do if the show timeline reaches the fall of the Soviet Union.  Presumably the KGB might have been in disarray and might allow them to walk away with little or no consequences.  Of course the FBI wouldn't, though maybe the State dept. would say just let the illegals walk

[John S]

Guess it depends on what the show runners want to do.  They consulted CIA agents so maybe they want to stay true to history and depict what typically happened to these illegals, whether they were caught or returned to the Soviet Union.

 

Or if the characters become popular, they'll feel some need to wrap things up in an upbeat note, come up with a scenario where things end well for P&E and the kids but would not be representative of history.

 

Despite all the bad things they do, the show runners seems to want P&E to be sympathetic to viewers.  Sure Elizabeth's claim that they're making the world a better place (before forcing that old woman to kill herself) or that they're helping their country (to Paige) may ring hollow.  However, she believes those claims, though she's starting to question it.  

 

Presumably she isn't some irredeemable monster because she weeped after putting the old woman down.  Or at least that's what they want the viewers to think.

 

David Chase had an unambiguous view of Tony Soprano, despite how viewers connected with the character.  Here, the show runners seem to suggest that P&E do horrible things but they're at worst misguided and they are tortured by the things they've seen and have had to do.

 

So maybe they want to send the characters off positively.

 

It would probably be easier to do if the show timeline reaches the fall of the Soviet Union.  Presumably the KGB might have been in disarray and might allow them to walk away with little or no consequences.  Of course the FBI wouldn't, though maybe the State dept. would say just let the illegals walk

P and E aren't really that sympathetic. They are murderers and Elizabeth has said that she wants her children to follow in their parents footsteps, which I guess for Paige means possibly killing people, sleeping with whatever men that she has to, and everything else associated with being a spy.

[Cara]

Plus, we already know that the Soviet Union will collapse and everything Philip and Elizabeth sacrificed and worked for will have been for nothing.

For me, as an American, that is a happy ending!

Edited April 19, 2015 by Cara

[bluebonnet]

For me, as an American, that is a happy ending!

Even we Americans should be able to look past their own noses.  Sure, it marks the 'success' of a bloody and long period of time in history but it's not like millions of people didn't also suffer during the collapse.  It was a desirable ending, but probably not some joyous experience for all those involved.  

 

In the context of the show, the characters have been humanized for us.  Regardless what some might claim, they are sympathetic characters even though we can acknowledge that they do horrible things.  It's like how Stan is a sympathetic character even though he mislead a CI and murdered a KGB agent out of vengeance.  It's like how the soldier can be sympathetic even when he's been killing people up and down the jungle of Vietnam.  P & E might be on the wrong side of history, but it's a lot more complicated than that.  If we weren't invested in these characters, I'm not sure the show would have lasted past the first season.  Even knowing that it's fiction, I can't imagine that the average viewer is excited to see these characters made miserable, especially when it includes two children.  

[Cara]

I thinking knowing how it turns out historically, knowing they don't succeed makes it easier to be have some sympathy for P&E. I think it would be very difficult to do a similar show with a contemporary plot. For example a family that is part of a terrorist sleeper cell would be viewed by most people in a very negative light. Most people would not want to see them have a happy ending. It would be hard to humanize them.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Cara

[John S]

I thinking knowing how it turns out historically, knowing they don't succeed makes it easier to be have some sympathy for P&E. I think it would be very difficult to do a similar show with a contemporary plot. For example a family that is part of a terrorist sleeper cell would be viewed by most people in a very negative light. Most people would not want to see them have a happy ending. It would be hard to humanize them.

We can humanize P and E and maybe even feel somewhat sorry for them - but since Elizabeth wants Paige to actively work in the future for the KGB, I can't sympathize with any mother who wants to groom her own daughter to, very probably, become a whore.

You're right - A family of ISIS terrorists would be very difficult to have any sympathy for.

[Umbelina]

I always do the "shoe on the other foot" thing with Philip and Elizabeth, imagining that they are CIA, and fighting against the enemy, the Soviet Union.  Would we still hate them?

 

I think we might get a partial happy ending.  Philip is not as patriotic as Elizabeth.  Yes, he hates some of the things the USA does, but frankly, so do many USA citizens, even back then.  Maybe Elizabeth is killed, and Philip, freed from the KGB, and with only his daughter knowing what he was, simply goes on with his life as an American dad with two kids? 

 

I agree it's doubtful, especially the way they are being written, as murderers and doing things embedded agents really would not do, too risky, too easy for them to be caught.  Still, I think Philip is already more American than not.  It MIGHT happen.  Ha.

[sistermagpie]

We can humanize P and E and maybe even feel somewhat sorry for them - but since Elizabeth wants Paige to actively work in the future for the KGB, I can't sympathize with any mother who wants to groom her own daughter to, very probably, become a whore.

 

 

I actually think Elizabeth has good reason to think that being a whore isn't an issue. Lisa isn't expected to be a whore, so I'm sure Elizabeth really only sees herself pushing Paige to be a good human being who's part of the "solution" rather than the problem.

 

Re: the end of the USSR there were actually Illegals who just kept on working. Not saying the Jennings would be one of them, but it's possible.

 

But I really hope the show doesn't do any time jumps. I hate time jumps.

 

I always do the "shoe on the other foot" thing with Philip and Elizabeth, imagining that they are CIA, and fighting against the enemy, the Soviet Union.  Would we still hate them?

 

 

Yes, I tend to see it as two countries at war, and spies are part of war. I probably would feel differently about something like ISIS or Stan's white supremists, but they seem like different things to me. We have had incidents in the first season where a US traitor and a KGB agent both seemed to genuinely be trying to avoid nuclear war for both of them.

Edited April 19, 2015 by sistermagpie

[bluebonnet]

I always do the "shoe on the other foot" thing with Philip and Elizabeth, imagining that they are CIA, and fighting against the enemy, the Soviet Union.  Would we still hate them?

 

Exactly this.  There are all sorts of shows and films where the American is the terrorist aggressor, the spy, or whatever.  It's easier to immediately sympathize with a character if they are part of our 'in' group.  

[kikaha]

I think the series finale should show Paige, 20 years in the future, with kids and family, living a nice middle-class US life -- while in the shadows she carries on the work of her parents. 

[John S]

I think the series finale should show Paige, 20 years in the future, with kids and family, living a nice middle-class US life -- while in the shadows she carries on the work of her parents. 

For which country - Russia?

[kikaha]

John S., yes, for Russia. 

[John S]

Elizabeth is REALLY angry after watching President Reagan give his speech.

Paige just told her pastor that her parents are Russians.

IF Paige tells her parents that she told, as angry as Elizabeth is, she MIGHT just beat the crap out of Paige - fist after fist after fist. Philip would have to pull Elizabeth off Paige.

[ToastnBacon]

Elizabeth is REALLY angry after watching President Reagan give his speech.

Paige just told her pastor that her parents are Russians.

IF Paige tells her parents that she told, as angry as Elizabeth is, she MIGHT just beat the crap out of Paige - fist after fist after fist. Philip would have to pull Elizabeth off Paige.

I hope they write the series as culminating with a big show down between Phillip and Elizabeth over the kids.

Just like so many divorces that end with a big fight over the children, but with a P&E break up, the stakes will be much higher.

[John S]

I hope they write the series as culminating with a big show down between Phillip and Elizabeth over the kids.

Just like so many divorces that end with a big fight over the children, but with a P&E break up, the stakes will be much higher.

Would the Center allow P and E to get a divorce or to live separately?

[sistermagpie]

Would the Center allow P and E to get a divorce or to live separately?

 

 

Obviously yes, since they already did it.

 

But I think Philip showed where his feelings lay in the pilot. He chose Elizabeth--for good reason. They're cemented together. The kids will grow up and have lives of their own. Elizabeth feels she should be 100% committed to the cause, but she loves the kids and actually does underneath see Philip's pov, I think. That's why she likes working with him as a team. She's fooling herself about Paige, and I think she'll be very angry and hurt and Paige telling, but I don't think she'd beat her up. I think it would just make her feel abandoned the way she refuses to admit she felt when her mother told her to go away forever.

[John S]

Obviously yes, since they already did it.

 

But I think Philip showed where his feelings lay in the pilot. He chose Elizabeth--for good reason. They're cemented together. The kids will grow up and have lives of their own. Elizabeth feels she should be 100% committed to the cause, but she loves the kids and actually does underneath see Philip's pov, I think. That's why she likes working with him as a team. She's fooling herself about Paige, and I think she'll be very angry and hurt and Paige telling, but I don't think she'd beat her up. I think it would just make her feel abandoned the way she refuses to admit she felt when her mother told her to go away forever.

Let's play this out.

Elizabeth is angry. Paige tells her that she told.

Are you saying that Elizabeth would slump in a chair, feeling abandoned by Paige? Will Elizabeth start crying letting all of her pent up emotions out? If so, she might cry for hours.

Or am I mistaken about what you are saying?

 

Forgive me - I don't remember this. When were Philip and Elizabeth allowed to live separately?

Edited April 25, 2015 by John S

[ToastnBacon]

Would the Center allow P and E to get a divorce or to live separately?

I was talking a series ender, a break up that leads to defection and treason.

With Elizabeth being bested by Phillip.

He takes Henry and Paige into witness protection, leaving Elizabeth with no option but to return to the Soviet Union.

I'd like to see a montage of her in a dank and drab apartment, eating cold borscht and watching Yeltsin come to power on an ancient TV set.

They could do all that in a montage, all they need is a really long montage.

 

Forgive me - I don't remember this. When were Philip and Elizabeth allowed to live separately?

The end of season one, and part of season two.

Phillip was staying in a crappy hotel, he got an apartment but then they patched things up.

[sistermagpie]

Let's play this out.

Elizabeth is angry. Paige tells her that she told.

Are you saying that Elizabeth would slump in a chair, feeling abandoned by Paige? Will Elizabeth start crying letting all of her pent up emotions out? If so, she might cry for hours.

Or am I mistaken about what you are saying?

Forgive me - I don't remember this. When were Philip and Elizabeth allowed to live separately?

 

 

In S1 they separated.

 

I can't really play it out--I just like to watch the show and see how they play it out. It just seems like given what we've seen of Elizabeth this is what learning about Paige's betrayal would make her feel, especially since she just had that visit to her mother where she reinforced again that she had to let her go. I don't know if it would manifest in Elizabeth slumping into a chair or crying--she might at first just be in shock. She might lash out at her. I don't imagine her going off on her like she did Claudia, with Philip pulling her off. It's just impossible to know since we have no idea how Elizabeth will even find out. Paige might not even be in the same room. And I doubt Elizabeth would actually be aware of feeling abandoned by Paige or her mother--that seems like something she might be cut off from emotionally. So she'd probably channel it into something else.

 

I guess I imagine her dealing with her emotions the way she often does, by becoming more of a hardline Communist, maybe telling Philip it's typical that Paige would betray them because Americans are weak and if Paige had difficulty with her parents she would naturally just go out and find new ones--choices! Maybe she'd lash out at Philip if he defended Paige. I just figure anything I planned out would not be the way it went down.

 

Interestingly, both Philip and Elizabeth do seem to consider it an obvious possibility that Paige will tell. That's why they both went to the Pastor's house. So while it will still be a shock, and especially it'll be a shock that she did it without them realizing it, it's not like they haven't been playing this exact scenario out in their head themselves. The first thing they said to her was not to tell Pastor Tim, and then they took the phone of the hook, and then they were terrified all day she'd tell somebody. So I'd hope they'd have some idea how to react.

[John S]

I was talking a series ender, a break up that leads to defection and treason.

With Elizabeth being bested by Phillip.

He takes Henry and Paige into witness protection, leaving Elizabeth with no option but to return to the Soviet Union.

I'd like to see a montage of her in a dank and drab apartment, eating cold borscht and watching Yeltsin come to power on an ancient TV set.

They could do all that in a montage, all they need is a really long montage.

The end of season one, and part of season two.

Phillip was staying in a crappy hotel, he got an apartment but then they patched things up.

Thank You.

[John S]

In S1 they separated.

 

I can't really play it out--I just like to watch the show and see how they play it out. It just seems like given what we've seen of Elizabeth this is what learning about Paige's betrayal would make her feel, especially since she just had that visit to her mother where she reinforced again that she had to let her go. I don't know if it would manifest in Elizabeth slumping into a chair or crying--she might at first just be in shock. She might lash out at her. I don't imagine her going off on her like she did Claudia, with Philip pulling her off. It's just impossible to know since we have no idea how Elizabeth will even find out. Paige might not even be in the same room. And I doubt Elizabeth would actually be aware of feeling abandoned by Paige or her mother--that seems like something she might be cut off from emotionally. So she'd probably channel it into something else.

 

I guess I imagine her dealing with her emotions the way she often does, by becoming more of a hardline Communist, maybe telling Philip it's typical that Paige would betray them because Americans are weak and if Paige had difficulty with her parents she would naturally just go out and find new ones--choices! Maybe she'd lash out at Philip if he defended Paige. I just figure anything I planned out would not be the way it went down.

 

Interestingly, both Philip and Elizabeth do seem to consider it an obvious possibility that Paige will tell. That's why they both went to the Pastor's house. So while it will still be a shock, and especially it'll be a shock that she did it without them realizing it, it's not like they haven't been playing this exact scenario out in their head themselves. The first thing they said to her was not to tell Pastor Tim, and then they took the phone of the hook, and then they were terrified all day she'd tell somebody. So I'd hope they'd have some idea how to react.

According to MY scenario, Paige tells Elizabeth that she told. You don't believe that Elizabeth would hit her. O.K.

When you say that Elizabeth would "lash out at Paige", do you mean verbally?

"If Paige had difficulty with her parents, she would naturally just go out and find new ones - choices. Are you saying that Paige will go searching for new parents? If so, I would guess that you mean the pastor and his wife.

BTW - You DID play it out. This IS the speculation thread. It doesn't matter if you or I are wrong. It's sometimes fun to just speculate on what MIGHT happen.

[sistermagpie]

According to MY scenario, Paige tells Elizabeth that she told. You don't believe that Elizabeth would hit her. O.K.

When you say that Elizabeth would "lash out at Paige", do you mean verbally?

"If Paige had difficulty with her parents, she would naturally just go out and find new ones - choices. Are you saying that Paige will go searching for new parents? If so, I would guess that you mean the pastor and his wife.

BTW - You DID play it out. This IS the speculation thread. It doesn't matter if you or I are wrong. It's sometimes fun to just speculate on what MIGHT happen.

 

 

I mean I don't play it out in my head in such detail as exactly what would happen in a scene, like if I was writing it. I just speculate more generally. Once I get down to an actual scene level of what would happen--except in certain cases where it seems obviously, I guess---I just feel like anything I say would be wrong so not helpful. There's a point where I don't feel like I have enough to go on to guess.

 

I meant lash out physically and/or verbally, but not to the extent she beat up Grannie. Like she might just make a move toward her. I think Philip would step in before anything else happened (if he was there) or Elizabeth would stop herself. I think it would be scary enough for Paige to see the potential for real violence from her mother there. I suppose she might slap her, though. I could imagine that--she slapped Philip in the pilot. And Philip's reaction would probably be the completely opposite of Paige's. But I wonder if that would be too much, even just that, because it might send Paige running out the door, period.

 

Yes, I did mean the pastor and his wife--but not necessarily because Paige was literally looking to move in with them. Just Elizabeth looking at the situation and Paige's loyalty to Pastor Tim and the way she clearly has made a point of preferring them to her parents and explaining it via Paige being a spoiled American who treats family like she's a consumer. This seems to be the type of thing that would fit Elizabeth's worldview and things she's said before--and it wouldn't be completely off-base, either. Paige has obviously glommed onto the pastor and his wife and the church as a sort of fantasy family that's much easier than her real one. I could see Paige talking about Pastor Tim and his wife and that being Elizabeth's reaction. (I just totally played out a scene there!)

[John S]

I mean I don't play it out in my head in such detail as exactly what would happen in a scene, like if I was writing it. I just speculate more generally. Once I get down to an actual scene level of what would happen--except in certain cases where it seems obviously, I guess---I just feel like anything I say would be wrong so not helpful. There's a point where I don't feel like I have enough to go on to guess.

 

I meant lash out physically and/or verbally, but not to the extent she beat up Grannie. Like she might just make a move toward her. I think Philip would step in before anything else happened (if he was there) or Elizabeth would stop herself. I think it would be scary enough for Paige to see the potential for real violence from her mother there. I suppose she might slap her, though. I could imagine that--she slapped Philip in the pilot. And Philip's reaction would probably be the completely opposite of Paige's. But I wonder if that would be too much, even just that, because it might send Paige running out the door, period.

 

Yes, I did mean the pastor and his wife--but not necessarily because Paige was literally looking to move in with them. Just Elizabeth looking at the situation and Paige's loyalty to Pastor Tim and the way she clearly has made a point of preferring them to her parents and explaining it via Paige being a spoiled American who treats family like she's a consumer. This seems to be the type of thing that would fit Elizabeth's worldview and things she's said before--and it wouldn't be completely off-base, either. Paige has obviously glommed onto the pastor and his wife and the church as a sort of fantasy family that's much easier than her real one. I could see Paige talking about Pastor Tim and his wife and that being Elizabeth's reaction. (I just totally played out a scene there!)

You would probably be right but I have a different reaction from Paige if Elizabeth were to slap her. I just don't know if the writers would do this. IF Paige were to do this, it would be THE most cocky reply that she could possibly have. It would be a win-win situation for her and a lose-lose situation for Elizabeth.

With tears falling down her cheeks, she could look her mother straight in the eye and say, "My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,said that since you have slapped me on the left side of my face (assuming that Elizabeth is right handed), I must now allow you to slap me on the right side of my face".

Elizabeth either backs down, in which case Paige has "won" or Elizabeth gets SO angry that she pummels Paige, another loss for Elizabeth. In either case, Elizabeth would now know that if she ever wanted to slap Paige again, she will have to do it twice - and not many mothers want to do that.

Now THAT would be shoving Paige's religious beliefs in Elizabeth's face - but like I said, I don't know if the writers would go that way.

[One Imaginary Girl]

It seems like the time that Stan spent undercover investigating white supremacists is brought up a lot, including the plane crash this season.  I've been waiting for the significance of that assignment to become evident, so I've been wondering recently if Stan is playing some kind of long game with the suspicions he had about Elizabeth and Philip early in S1.  Maybe he's a good enough agent that he can play along for a few years without the target noticing.  

 

However, I'd have to go back and rewatch any scenes with him and the Jenningses to see if there's an undercurrent of his observing them.

[sistermagpie]

You would probably be right but I have a different reaction from Paige if Elizabeth were to slap her. I just don't know if the writers would do this. IF Paige were to do this, it would be THE most cocky reply that she could possibly have. It would be a win-win situation for her and a lose-lose situation for Elizabeth.

With tears falling down her cheeks, she could look her mother straight in the eye and say, "My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,said that since you have slapped me on the left side of my face (assuming that Elizabeth is right handed), I must now allow you to slap me on the right side of my face".

Elizabeth either backs down, in which case Paige has "won" or Elizabeth gets SO angry that she pummels Paige, another loss for Elizabeth. In either case, Elizabeth would now know that if she ever wanted to slap Paige again, she will have to do it twice - and not many mothers want to do that.

Now THAT would be shoving Paige's religious beliefs in Elizabeth's face - but like I said, I don't know if the writers would go that way.

 

 

I'd be shocked if a kid who's never been slapped in her life would be able to spit out any response other than crying and running away, tbh! :-) She's not her father who takes a wallop like it's nothing!

[BetyBee]

I heard a "crackpot theory" on a podcast - that Gabriel & Claudia are Elizabeth's true parents!  I think it's far-fetched, but I do believe there is a romantic history between them due to the way they kept covering one another's hand at the diner.  Anyway, that is supposed to explain why they both prefer Elizabeth to Phillip.  The host who presented the theory, didn't seem to take it to seriously, but it would make for an interesting story!