Players in the People v OJ Simpson: Kathryn, Faye and Various Others

[LIMOM]

I assumed she was a mix of black and white.  What is she?

Passing IMO.

[zoeysmom]

Talking with the Prosecutor is one thing, a good thing, but did she talk with the investigating police? I haven't read anything that says she did, does she mention it in her book because I have NOT read it and doubt I ever will. I just find it that odd if she didn't and that she wrote the book first BEFORE telling the police all she knew about the physical abuse and the threats against NS by OJ.

Talking to prosecutors, talking to police same thing.  There was a prosecutor early on.  The police work to get evidence together for the prosecution.  It may be different on California than other jurisdictions. 

[Umbelina]

The police had plenty of evidence about OJ being abusive to Nicole, including photos, her own voice pleading with them during 911 calls, and many police reports. 

 

I don't know what "look inside this book" I was looking at earlier this week, but one of them was saying the prosecution decided as soon as the book came out not to put Faye on the stand, because the defense would rip her to shreds, and Nicole along with her.

 

As it turned out, that jury could have had the ghost of Nicole and Ron there in person, bloody and testifying, or hell, videotape of it all, and they would have still let OJ off.

[lunastartron]

Sure, opening statements aren't evidence. In my personal subjective opinion, though, I think it's a practical reality that assertions within that context have the power to skew jury perception, bias, and attitude - why else did Cochran enumerate all of Nicole's sexual imbroglios? And, no, there was no foundation for the drug dealer theory - which is exactly why Cochran introduced it in opening and then tried to obliquely revive the issue during his examination of Lange. And "9 days prior" is a mischaracterization of when Faye resided with Nicole; she moved in 9 days prior, Nicole staged an intervention on June 09, and Faye, I believe, entered treatment the next day. Living with Nicole until June 10 qualifies as "immediately" before to me when the murders occurred on June 12 but mmv . . . As for the matter of Faye's flight to Vermont, I never wrote that she herself flirted with obstruction; I wrote that, if her attorney - as she herself has maintained - specifically advised her to refrain from sharing all of her eyewitness testimony to the authorities in favor of spilling them all in a book to the point that he put her in touch with her co-writer and pointed them to a hideaway across the country, then *he* flirted with obstruction and, at the very least, threaded the needle when it came to legal ethics . . . I think there's also a conflation here of moral consideration and specific legal statutes; sure, Marcia Clark was an asshole toward a number of witnesses. She was also, imo, surprisingly incompetent when it came to a number of important decisions like establishing the time of the murder. It's also true that Faye herself did not break any laws. But that doesn't mean, to me, that Faye's deliberate, concerted decision to pen Private Diary in lieu of sharing what she saw with Clark is any less appalling . . . As for the premise and question about whether or not Faye is truthful in her assertion that she wrote the book with the intention to highlight OJ's guilt: imo, it's bullshit. I'll try to dig up my used-bookstore edition and post quotes here later but it's a really weird manifesto replete with remarks like "I personally believe that sex is a special expression between two committed partners . . . but Nicole felt differently. She *needed* sex." (that's a paraphrase but more or less an accurate quote in terms of content) There's perhaps a whisper of defensibleness in Faye's argument that she needed to show Nicole in all of her flawed, fallible humanity rather than canonize her but that would have required a far more astute writing team and a more sensitive friend than Faye. The ruminations on Nicole being "ruined" for white men by OJ's big black studliness; the lesbian sex scene between Nicole and Faye (even though Faye spends almost as much ink stressing she's not gay); the account of Nicole performing a 'Brentwood hello' on a sleeping neighbor into whose house she just sort of wandered; the tsk-tsk undertones to the Marcus Allen allegations ('you just don't 'do' your man's best friend'); the bald assertions that someone from OJ's team was out to murder Faye. All of this was pure sensationalism and unnecessary to establishing OJ's guilt.

[kokapetl]

How routinely do prosecutors handle trials like this? What are the resources of their average adversary?

[LIMOM]

Let's not forget that the book was co-written by the super sleazy Mike Walker.

[zoeysmom]

I believe that Marcia thought she had enough witnesses regarding OJ's prior violence toward Nicole and really pretty much dismissed Faye until she could not.  Marcia was up against incredible time restraints with the defense unwilling waive time a right OJ and every other criminal defendant are entitled to under the "justice delayed is justice denied" doctrine and of course the statutory requirements.  It was a strategy the defense used to their advantage as the prosecution goes first and the defense team was so large they had substantial manpower to ready their case and mount the defense.

 

I believe Faye stated she was going to be truthful about her relationships with both Nicole and OJ and that had she had more time and on reflection she would not have been so specific.  I don't think Faye did the right thing by including all of Nicole's feelings and idiosyncrasies but if you want t truthful witness as opposed to a cheerleader these are things (which were totally irrelevant to Nicole as a homicide victim) that would come out.  Better they be expressed initially than be drug out over cross examination.  From recent readings and viewing Faye's videos posted here, I don't find her particularly intelligent or articulate as a witness.  I would not go so far as to blame it on the drugs, I just don't think she is all that bright.  I think she thought way too highly of herself in the whole society nonsense. 

 

As far as Faye talking about Nicole doing Marcus Allen  and "you just don't do your man's best friend", I don't see it as judgmental, I see it as prudent advice.  Whether Nicole and Marcus had sex is irrelevant to me, it is Nicole sharing the information with ANYONE. The chances increase if the information to get back to deranged OJ.  OJ and Nicole kept going back to each other, it wasn't as if Nicole wasn't a willing participant. She was in Cabo with him the Easter before her homicide.  I do believe she had finally decided to cut ties with OJ and that is what caused OJ to kill Nicole.  I just believe if he could not have her no one else would.  Faye echoing those sentiments may have been helpful to the prosecution and at the time Marcia Clark used her judgment in weighing the probative value of having her testify against the seemingly insurmountable problems with a witness like Faye .

 

 

How routinely do prosecutors handle trials like this? What are the resources of their average adversary?

The way it works is the police respond to a crime and take the information they have to  the prosecution file charges.  The DA's office can quick a case back to the police and demand further evidence.  In big cases like this and there are so few where a defendant can pay for the defense, the defense counsel makes motions to the Court to pay for certain experts and testing.  Defense counsel also uses paralegals, investigators and experts.  The defense costs in court appointed cases for indigent clients can be staggering-especially if there are multiple defendants.  Each defendant is entitled to an attorney and the same access to investigators and experts. 

[lunastartron]

Here's what I will concede in Faye's favor: her book - and I believe, based upon how quickly it came out, it was probably the first to raise this point; I also don't think the prosecution addressed this nuance at the trial - underscores the fact that Nicole met OJ three weeks out of high school. Faye notes that Nicole often expressed confusion and puzzlement at how the live apart from a man who had pursued, courted, and in many ways molded her since she was 18. Considering the jury discounted recordings of Nicole's 911 screams and the deposit box selfies, this would have likely been irrelevant at trial but I appreciate that Faye did make the effort to address the issue. As for the rest of her revelations, I definitely think that it's always a good idea to emphasize the reality the domestic violence victims are rarely and don't have to be saints but, yeah, I'm standing by my contention that the specific, pulpy, softcore descriptions of Nicole's sexual escapades were not the way to achieve that end and were included in the interest of making a splash in the media/garnering attention for the tome's release. What disturbs me about "you just don't 'do' your man's best friend" (and this was hardly a one-off sentiment within the text) is that OJ was neither legally nor situationally Nicole's "man" at the times that Nicole was involved with him. As I noted in a previous post, there are these really odd moments within the narrative in which Faye - and she never broaches the irony herein directly, so I assume she missed it - does similar things like instruct Nicole to apologize for non-offenses in order to placate OJ's lunacy. In sum, I don't think Faye's participation in the trial would have made a difference in context to the final jury but I do think the book had an unexpected effect of influencing the composition of the pool that yielded the final jury and was morally, if not legally, confounding and appalling in a variety of capacities.

[Umbelina]

For me, there is NOTHING that is OK about Faye capitalizing on her friend's murder by writing that book, and especially by writing it so fast, and releasing it while jury was being selected.  NOTHING. Nicole had young children and young children hear everything, they didn't deserve to catch snippets about their mom on TV, or when adults thought they were asleep.

 

Not one damn thing.  Fuck her.

 

My very dear friend committed suicide (and I really don't want to get into to any of that here) right after the verdict.  She was also in an abusive marriage, not physically abusive, emotionally and mentally.  Did I know a bunch of secrets about her, and her sex life?  Yes.  We were college roommates and remained close through the years.  I pretty much knew everything.  Would I have sold that for money or to be accepted into Hilton/Kardashian/TV world?  Never.  I loved her two children, and I still do.  On the contrary, I knew of a few things that she'd kept over the years, and never wanted her husband to see.  Tapes of her previous fiance that was killed by a drunk driver for one.  Love letters from another man she almost married, etc.  As she wanted and requested of me before her death,  I removed them and destroyed them.

 

Now her children are adults.  Will I be honest with questions about it all? Yes, if they ask, they are now old enough, and they do have questions.  Anything that will help them understand that is, not lurid details of our younger selves that would sell a book. 

 

Faye is scum.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

To me, in the OJ case, it seems that merely being a witness realistically required retaining lawyers, lest everyone else's teams of lawyers tried to blame it on you.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Kokapetl

[RedheadZombie]

All of the evidence regarding Nicole's abuse is disturbing, but (for me) the very worst came from a police officer who once responded to a DV call. He found Nicole cowering outside in the bushes wearing only a bra above the waist. That's always been such a disturbing mental picture for me.

[Vicky8675309]

I wonder if any of the jurors now regret their decision

[zoeysmom]

Here's what I will concede in Faye's favor: her book - and I believe, based upon how quickly it came out, it was probably the first to raise this point; I also don't think the prosecution addressed this nuance at the trial - underscores the fact that Nicole met OJ three weeks out of high school. Faye notes that Nicole often expressed confusion and puzzlement at how the live apart from a man who had pursued, courted, and in many ways molded her since she was 18. Considering the jury discounted recordings of Nicole's 911 screams and the deposit box selfies, this would have likely been irrelevant at trial but I appreciate that Faye did make the effort to address the issue. As for the rest of her revelations, I definitely think that it's always a good idea to emphasize the reality the domestic violence victims are rarely and don't have to be saints but, yeah, I'm standing by my contention that the specific, pulpy, softcore descriptions of Nicole's sexual escapades were not the way to achieve that end and were included in the interest of making a splash in the media/garnering attention for the tome's release. What disturbs me about "you just don't 'do' your man's best friend" (and this was hardly a one-off sentiment within the text) is that OJ was neither legally nor situationally Nicole's "man" at the times that Nicole was involved with him. As I noted in a previous post, there are these really odd moments within the narrative in which Faye - and she never broaches the irony herein directly, so I assume she missed it - does similar things like instruct Nicole to apologize for non-offenses in order to placate OJ's lunacy. In sum, I don't think Faye's participation in the trial would have made a difference in context to the final jury but I do think the book had an unexpected effect of influencing the composition of the pool that yielded the final jury and was morally, if not legally, confounding and appalling in a variety of capacities.

First off, Nicole from the time she met Simpson, according to her declaration is support of spousal support, pretty much became dependent on a very married and still making a baby with his  wife, OJ Simpson.  While it is touching she was just out of high school she was also not exactly innocent in her pursuit of OJ.  There were stories of her calling and what we now call stalking his marital home.  In no way does this excuse any of the violence perpetrated toward Nicole.  From most accounts OJ and Nicole were an on again and off again couple post their divorce.   There were photos of the two of them vacationing in Cabo at Easter of 1994, (the divorce was filed in February of 1992). So mentioning a past boyfriend, in front of others, to a psycho-maniac, may not an exercise in discretion might be the better part of valor.  In all of the world it is probably a bad idea to screw the best friend of your estranged husband if you were regardless of whether or not  you were attempting a reconciliation.  It is just bad form.   It is a little morally corrupt, add to it, the guy was married, something that had little impact of Nicole apparently given her history with a married OJ.  Of course people have the right to screw or talk about some guy they screwed,  in front of others, but it is not really beyond the bounds that a jealous ex (and obviously someone she was seeing socially-this didn't happen a child exchange) is not a good idea.  To me, as a friend, where Kris, Faye,  et al, may have let Nicole down is continuing to placate her,  and her frequent reconciliations,socialize with an abuser.  It is nice to support a friend's relationship but maybe some more honest advice from her friends, family (who were still financially dependent on OJ) and hopefully her attorney or a counselor would have been a wiser course.

Edited January 26, 2016 by zoeysmom

[LIMOM]

20 years later and the victim is still being blamed.

It does not matter what she did in her sexual life, if OJ was not a psychopathic killer, she would still be alive.

As far as her friends giving her good advice, I know that Kris expressed some regrets regarding the way that she handled the situation.

Plus, I have always heard that he was incredibly charming, so I would not be surprised that he charmed everyone including her friends into thinking that he was not that bad.

[ElDosEquis]

I saw every day of the trial because I had access to a TV in my office and being in El Lay there was quite a bit of twattery associated with the whole case.

 

Most of it was the way OJ was handled/treated?

 

There was an early basketball playoff game on the tube and they interrupted the game to show the Bronco on the freeway - then they went to split screen coverage - every local channel was covering it.

 As they drove the freeway, the cops closed off parts of the freeway and the number of people that gathered along the route reminded me of the crowds that gathered for the Olympic torch runs in '84...At the end of the chase, they allowed him to go into the house and get a glass of OJ (insert disbelief here).

 

When the cops were called to his house for a report of DV,  he either ran off before they got there or he schmoozed the officers that showed up by being 'OJ' - he'd sign autographs, give tours of the house and be very apologetic - the cops would be starstruck by his act and give him a pass. They never followed up on the calls when he'd leave before they got there.

 

There were a few cops assigned to that area who had been to the home on previous DV calls - they knew who lived there.

 

The media circus around the trial and the way that Clark and Darden were portrayed also took away from the work they did. Their clothes, relationship and even Clark's sudden change of hair style during the proceedings trumped any of the work they were doing.

 

The blood evidence that was taken home by one of the investigators was a HUGE stumbling block - at the time, The LAPD had some prior cases where evidence was mishandled and they were under attack for the sloppy work the crime lab was doing. For a while lawyers were using that argument to their advantage and the OJ trial

was a gut punch to the system.

 

(Soon after the trial was over, the LAPD slapped bumper stickers on all their vehicles that said something like "There is no excuse for Domestic Violence". A vinyl mea culpa?)

 

It seemed like the ONLY voice that was heard above the din belonged to Fred Goldman and after a while he was everywhere and I believe people got tired of hearing from him?

 

Denise Brown was another caricature that surfaced during that time. After the trial she began a fund with her sister's name attached to it - I seem to remember that it did close down after there were some complaints about how the money was being used.

 

The day they announced the verdict it seemed as if the whole town was stunned - people were walking around in a fog and you could feel it in the air.

[LIMOM]

Yes, everyone around OJ had their hand out for a pay-out.

If I recall correctly, even Nicole's parents benefitted from his largess.

[kokapetl]

Disseminating opinions on matters sub judice is contempt of court in other common law countries. Good or bad? Did the OJ media circus help justice?

[Umbelina]

So, Zoey, if I'm reading your posts correctly, you believe Faye about Nicole's "affair" with Marcus?  Even though Marcus testified under oath that it never happened?  In addition, if I'm understanding it correctly, Faye didn't witness that, but SAYS she HEARD that from the murder victim?  Complete hearsay, denied by the only living accused, in other words.

 

I don't believe Faye.  She was stoned out of her mind, for one thing, admittedly, so who knows what she could have imagined?  I'm not positive I believe Marcus' sworn testimony either, but I believe that far more than the rantings (for money) for some druggie trying to make a buck off Ron and Nicole's slaughter.

[ElDosEquis]

Yes, everyone around OJ had their hand out for a pay-out.

If I recall correctly, even Nicole's parents benefitted from his largess.

I dunno why, but I seem to remember there was something about a car rental business that he helped them with?

 

The Brown's knew about his abuse. During DB's testimony she related a story about the three of them at some kind of club and Denise witnessed OJ pinning Nicole against a wall with one hand and grabbing her crotch with the other saying something like, "This is where my babies come from".

 

Had it been my sister, I would have told her to GTF away from this AH.

 

I think the people close to Nicole knew about the DV and abuse and after the trial they tried to absolve themselves by writing and getting involved in anti-abuse movements?

[RedheadZombie]

I dunno why, but I seem to remember there was something about a car rental business that he helped them with?

 

The Brown's knew about his abuse. During DB's testimony she related a story about the three of them at some kind of club and Denise witnessed OJ pinning Nicole against a wall with one hand and grabbing her crotch with the other saying something like, "This is where my babies come from".

 

Had it been my sister, I would have told her to GTF away from this AH.

 

I think the people close to Nicole knew about the DV and abuse and after the trial they tried to absolve themselves by writing and getting involved in anti-abuse movements?

The Brown family definitely looked the other way. The video the day of the murder showed the family greeting OJ with kisses and hugs. Doesn't mean they deserved to have their family member killed - it just makes them a little less sympathetic, IMO.

[zoeysmom]

So, Zoey, if I'm reading your posts correctly, you believe Faye about Nicole's "affair" with Marcus?  Even though Marcus testified under oath that it never happened?  In addition, if I'm understanding it correctly, Faye didn't witness that, but SAYS she HEARD that from the murder victim?  Complete hearsay, denied by the only living accused, in other words.

 

I don't believe Faye.  She was stoned out of her mind, for one thing, admittedly, so who knows what she could have imagined?  I'm not positive I believe Marcus' sworn testimony either, but I believe that far more than the rantings (for money) for some druggie trying to make a buck off Ron and Nicole's slaughter.

I believe that Nicole told Faye that she had an affair with Marcus.  I have made the distinction on a number of occasions. As you have stated there were no witnesses that have come forward to confirm the affair which is true in a majority of affairs.  I have no reason to disbelieve Faye and it would seem like an odd thing to make up.  It is not as if the entire book centered around that particular conversation between Nicole and Faye. 

 

I don't want to get into a hearsay discussion because there are so many exceptions and outside of Court people repeat conversations they have allegedly had with others all the time.  Think Camille repeating her conversation with Kyle. 

 

If you were Marcus Allen, would you admit to an affair?  Let's start with the premise OJ, nearly cut his beloved head off and another guy and was not going to prison for a double homicide.  (The testimony I believe came in the civil trial.)   Just because he said he didn't have an affair with Nicole doesn't mean she did not tell others she had an affair with Marcus.   My earlier response was regarding Faye's advice to Nicole.  I stand by my statement that it is probably not wise to sleep with an ex's best friend, especially if that best friend is married.

 

My thought on this whole clique of people is they didn't really take marriage vows all that seriously.  Quite a crowd of adulterers. 

[Umbelina]

I would never give my sworn oath and lie.  For anyone.

 

I have a real problem with believing Faye.  About anything.

 

ETA, Marcus did more than give sworn testimony denying Faye's accusation, he also swore that OJ ASKED him to lie and say it was true.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Umbelina

[zoeysmom]

I would never give my sworn oath and lie.  For anyone.

 

I have a real problem with believing Faye.  About anything.

 

ETA, Marcus did more than give sworn testimony denying Faye's accusation, he also swore that OJ ASKED him to lie and say it was true.

My hat is off to you for not committing perjury.  How do we know OJ asked that of Marcus?  Oh because Marcus said so.  That would be hearsay-right?  Faye didn't accuse Marcus she said Nicole said that she and Marcus had an affair.

 

Every trier of fact gets to weigh the witness statements.  I believe the instruction is you can believe all it, none of it or some of it.   So in your case you don't believe that Faye had any conversations with OJ or Nicole about OJ threatening Nicole?  Because that was also part of her story.  Or that she stayed with Nicole or that she and Nicole were friends, or any number of things Faye has said.   

[Umbelina]

I'm simply saying that repeating something as fact as if it is TRUTH, when there is absolutely no evidence of that other than a drug addict who profited from her "friend's" grisly murder isn't working for me.

 

As far as Nicole's abuse?  That was already well documented, and Faye certainly would know about all of the police reports.  The rest that she threw in the book to make it sell?  She had sex with Nicole, Marcus did, Nicole needed lots of black man sex?  UGH.  She's trash.

 

Marcus's "word" is more believable to me because he was under oath.

[lunastartron]

First off, Nicole from the time she met Simpson, according to her declaration is support of spousal support, pretty much became dependent on a very married and still making a baby with his  wife, OJ Simpson.  While it is touching she was just out of high school she was also not exactly innocent in her pursuit of OJ.  There were stories of her calling and what we now call stalking his marital home.  In no way does this excuse any of the violence perpetrated toward Nicole.  From most accounts OJ and Nicole were an on again and off again couple post their divorce.   There were photos of the two of them vacationing in Cabo at Easter of 1994, (the divorce was filed in February of 1992). So mentioning a past boyfriend, in front of others, to a psycho-maniac, may not an exercise in discretion might be the better part of valor.  In all of the world it is probably a bad idea to screw the best friend of your estranged husband if you were regardless of whether or not  you were attempting a reconciliation.  It is just bad form.   It is a little morally corrupt, add to it, the guy was married, something that had little impact of Nicole apparently given her history with a married OJ.  Of course people have the right to screw or talk about some guy they screwed,  in front of others, but it is not really beyond the bounds that a jealous ex (and obviously someone she was seeing socially-this didn't happen a child exchange) is not a good idea.  To me, as a friend, where Kris, Faye,  et al, may have let Nicole down is continuing to placate her,  and her frequent reconciliations,socialize with an abuser.  It is nice to support a friend's relationship but maybe some more honest advice from her friends, family (who were still financially dependent on OJ) and hopefully her attorney or a counselor would have been a wiser course.

 

 

So, Zoey, if I'm reading your posts correctly, you believe Faye about Nicole's "affair" with Marcus?  Even though Marcus testified under oath that it never happened?  In addition, if I'm understanding it correctly, Faye didn't witness that, but SAYS she HEARD that from the murder victim?  Complete hearsay, denied by the only living accused, in other words.

 

I don't believe Faye.  She was stoned out of her mind, for one thing, admittedly, so who knows what she could have imagined?  I'm not positive I believe Marcus' sworn testimony either, but I believe that far more than the rantings (for money) for some druggie trying to make a buck off Ron and Nicole's slaughter.

 

You can deconstruct the probable credibility (or lack thereof) among these people until there's nothing left.

 

On the one hand, Faye does not simply assert in the text that NIcole told her that she was engaged in an affair with Marcus; as a precursor to that, Faye claims that Marcus propositioned and pursued her, Faye, via Nicole and directly to Faye before expressing any interest in Nicole. This series of anecdotes establishes the foundation of Marcus's alleged propensity toward infidelity sans hearsay and through direct eyewitness account.

 

However, if it would be "odd" for Faye to fabricate Nicole's alleged assertions that she was bedding Marcus, it would be at least as equally bizarre for Nicole to make those claims if they were baseless (since we're parsing the distinction between the premise that Nicole regaled Faye with these stories vs. the premise that Marcus and Nicole actually had an extended sexual relationship).

 

And there's also the documentation that Faye presented as fact editorializing on people (Kathryn) that she had never met.

 

From my perspective, there is a substantive difference between, say, privately counseling a girlfriend that it might be a practically dangerous idea to commence a romance with her psychotic ex-husband's best friend and instructing said girlfriend to apologize to said psychotic ex-husband while he's threatening and screaming at her. The former is offering measured guidance; the latter is participating in and bolstering the Kafkaesque lunacy of the abuser.

 

ETA: I see no reason why Nicole's extramarital pursuit of OJ and the possibility and/or probability that he subsequently authored much of her character (or at least succeeded in making her believe that he authored her identity) are mutually exclusive propositions. People can evolve considerably between 18 and 28 without dramatic influence, much less that of a physically abusive significant other and a warped blueprint for romantic dynamics.

Edited January 27, 2016 by lunastartron

[zoeysmom]

You can deconstruct the probable credibility (or lack thereof) among these people until there's nothing left.

 

On the one hand, Faye does not simply assert in the text that NIcole told her that she was engaged in an affair with Marcus; as a precursor to that, Faye claims that Marcus propositioned and pursued her, Faye, via Nicole and directly to Faye before expressing any interest in Nicole. This series of anecdotes establishes the foundation of Marcus's alleged propensity toward infidelity sans hearsay and through direct eyewitness account.

 

However, if it would be "odd" for Faye to fabricate Nicole's alleged assertions that she was bedding Marcus, it would be at least as equally bizarre for Nicole to make those claims if they were baseless (since we're parsing the distinction between the premise that Nicole regaled Faye with these stories vs. the premise that Marcus and Nicole actually had an extended sexual relationship).

 

From my perspective, there is a substantive difference between, say, privately counseling a girlfriend that it might be a practically dangerous idea to commence a romance with her psychotic ex-husband's best friend and instructing said girlfriend to apologize to said psychotic ex-husband while he's threatening and screaming at her. The former is offering measured guidance; the latter is participating in and bolstering the Kafkaesque lunacy of the abuser.

I think there is a great deal of common sense it placating a lunatic.  It can diffuse a scary situation.  Do I think Nicole should have to apologize to the lunatic-no.  The best way to stay of the way of the lunatic is to not socialize with him or her.  You can go co-parent without socializing-Brandi and Eddie have it down to a sciene much to Brandi's chagrin.

[lunastartron]

I saw every day of the trial because I had access to a TV in my office and being in El Lay there was quite a bit of twattery associated with the whole case.

 

Most of it was the way OJ was handled/treated?

 

There was an early basketball playoff game on the tube and they interrupted the game to show the Bronco on the freeway - then they went to split screen coverage - every local channel was covering it.

 As they drove the freeway, the cops closed off parts of the freeway and the number of people that gathered along the route reminded me of the crowds that gathered for the Olympic torch runs in '84...At the end of the chase, they allowed him to go into the house and get a glass of OJ (insert disbelief here).

 

When the cops were called to his house for a report of DV,  he either ran off before they got there or he schmoozed the officers that showed up by being 'OJ' - he'd sign autographs, give tours of the house and be very apologetic - the cops would be starstruck by his act and give him a pass. They never followed up on the calls when he'd leave before they got there.

 

There were a few cops assigned to that area who had been to the home on previous DV calls - they knew who lived there.

 

The media circus around the trial and the way that Clark and Darden were portrayed also took away from the work they did. Their clothes, relationship and even Clark's sudden change of hair style during the proceedings trumped any of the work they were doing.

 

The blood evidence that was taken home by one of the investigators was a HUGE stumbling block - at the time, The LAPD had some prior cases where evidence was mishandled and they were under attack for the sloppy work the crime lab was doing. For a while lawyers were using that argument to their advantage and the OJ trial

was a gut punch to the system.

 

(Soon after the trial was over, the LAPD slapped bumper stickers on all their vehicles that said something like "There is no excuse for Domestic Violence". A vinyl mea culpa?)

 

It seemed like the ONLY voice that was heard above the din belonged to Fred Goldman and after a while he was everywhere and I believe people got tired of hearing from him?

 

Denise Brown was another caricature that surfaced during that time. After the trial she began a fund with her sister's name attached to it - I seem to remember that it did close down after there were some complaints about how the money was being used.

 

The day they announced the verdict it seemed as if the whole town was stunned - people were walking around in a fog and you could feel it in the air.

 

I'd have to do more research on Denise Brown but I'd have to say that she ultimately behaved the most honorably of all friends and family of Nicole. She has continued her philanthropic work against domestic violence, declined offers to participate in documentaries if they bore O.J.'s name, and, as far as I know, didn't explicitly capitalize monetarily on Nicole's murder - even Nicole's dad sold either audio tapes or journals to a tabloid and Dominique Brown did the same with topless photographs of her sister.

[ElDosEquis]

Both Allen and Simpson played for USC and were BMOC. When you look at their college careers and what they did professionally, you see that they were both gifted athletes - very gifted. That being the case, they were both very recognizable around town.

 

Allen was nominated many times the "MIller Lite man of the year" for the Los Angeles Raiders - he was always known as a good guy, but there were stories of his being a man about town while he played in El Lay. Not here or there, but he did keep a low profile when it came to his dating habits.....

[zoeysmom]

Here are some quotes about what Faye wrote about Marcus and Kathryn in the book:  http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-beverly-hills/season-6/blogs/a-deep-dive-into-the-kathryn-vs-faye-feud

[Umbelina]

In TWO books actually.  Faye wanted to grab a little more of that money.

[Midnight Cheese]

20 years later and the victim is still being blamed.

It does not matter what she did in her sexual life, if OJ was not a psychopathic killer, she would still be alive.

As far as her friends giving her good advice, I know that Kris expressed some regrets regarding the way that she handled the situation.

Plus, I have always heard that he was incredibly charming, so I would not be surprised that he charmed everyone including her friends into thinking that he was not that bad.

Amen.   And it doesn't matter, should not matter, should never have mattered if Nicole was (one of) the other woman.  OJ was a fucking dog.  He controlled and manipulated a girl fresh out of fucking high school.  If she mooned after him and drove by his house dozens of times, SFW?  A lovesick 18 year old did that, someone get me the smelling salts!  The quiet enmity towards 'THOT/'other women'/'whores'/'sidepieces' in RH threads is be-fucking-wildering to me, but none ever more so than here.  Are we serious with this mess?  How??  How are we still in this thread talking (falsely) about how she was decapitated in her negligee when it wasn't even a negligee, it was a DRESS that she got slaughtered in?!?  When he was the person who controlled her from jump and beat and beat and beat her??  Jesus give me strength.  OJ ruined his first marriage.  OJ left his first wife.  OJ beat the hell out of his very young second wife as verified by timely photos (cough cough Taylor cough cough your timeline is a lie, slug lips) and OJ cut her head off the stabbed her friend to death. 

 

Fuck Faye Resnick forever.  She betrayed her abused, murdered friend.  She betrayed those children.  She burdened those children with spurious allegations about an affair that the alleged affair partner has flat-out denied.  And she did it and as a consequence, the foul conscience-free waste of life fucked with jury selection!  That is AMAZING to me.   There were consequences to this mess.  There was real harm.

 

Umbelina, I'm sorry.  You're a true friend. 

Edited January 27, 2016 by Midnight Cheese

[Dahlia]

Oh MC. I would stand and clap furiously for you if it wouldn't wake the whole house Your post punched me in the gut and made tears come. Never have I read a post that affected me more. So much fucking truth. Wow

[lunastartron]

Amen.   And it doesn't matter, should not matter, should never have mattered if Nicole was (one of) the other woman.  OJ was a fucking dog.  He controlled and manipulated a girl fresh out of fucking high school.  If she mooned after him and drove by his house dozens of times, SFW?  A lovesick 18 year old did that, someone get me the smelling salts!  The quiet enmity towards 'THOT/'other women'/'whores'/'sidepieces' in RH threads is be-fucking-wildering to me, but none ever more so than here.  Are we serious with this mess?  How??  How are we still in this thread talking (falsely) about how she was decapitated in her negligee when it wasn't even a negligee, it was a DRESS that she got slaughtered in?!?  When he was the person who controlled her from jump and beat and beat and beat her??  Jesus give me strength.  OJ ruined his first marriage.  OJ left his first wife.  OJ beat the hell out of his very young second wife as verified by timely photos (cough cough Taylor cough cough your timeline is a lie, slug lips) and OJ cut her head off the stabbed her friend to death. 

 

Fuck Faye Resnick forever.  She betrayed her abused, murdered friend.  She betrayed those children.  She burdened those children with spurious allegations about an affair that the alleged affair partner has flat-out denied.  And she did it and as a consequence, the foul conscience-free waste of life fucked with jury selection!  That is AMAZING to me.   There were consequences to this mess.  There was real harm.

 

Umbelina, I'm sorry.  You're a true friend. 

 

Looks like we're having a mutual admiration society jam sesh tonight because this is everything.

[zoeysmom]

20 years later and the victim is still being blamed.

It does not matter what she did in her sexual life, if OJ was not a psychopathic killer, she would still be alive.

As far as her friends giving her good advice, I know that Kris expressed some regrets regarding the way that she handled the situation.

Plus, I have always heard that he was incredibly charming, so I would not be surprised that he charmed everyone including her friends into thinking that he was not that bad.

I can only say it so many ways-I am not blaming the victim.   There is nothing Nicole ever did that warranted any physical abuse.  Even trusting OJ and returning to him does not make her to blame for his heinous behavior.  Nicole's history is her history.  One cannot turn a blind eye to what was happening in her life.  Before her marriage, during her abusive marriage or post divorce.  My comments were about giving someone advice that was pretty practical. 

[zoeysmom]

Here is what has always puzzled me-how is it Nicole's friends and presumably close friends never abandoned Faye as a friend?  It just seems odd with all the negative comments surrounding Faye, how and why is it these other people like Kathy Hilton, Kris Jenner, (apparently Kyle Richards-not that she was a someone) all seemed to just accept Faye's boundary crossing?  I can't explain it so I have to guess that there is more to Faye as a friend than what she published about her friendship with Nicole.  I agree she is a namedropper but apparently these name dropped people aren't bothered by her.  It is a mystery to me.  I have never thought of Kathy Hilton as particularly forgiving (oh wait she was BFFs with Michael Jackson), Kris Jenner doesn't seem to publicly hold grudges (maybe she does), Kyle just seems to have recently started cutting people off.  Anyway I don't get it.  Faye's friends have to know that she is capable of brutal honesty, it would seem like a risk to have her as a friend in this circle of aged out celebutantes.

 

I wonder how Kathryn feels about Kris Jenner?  Of course if she never read book she would not know of Kris's alleged comments.    

[LIMOM]

Here is what has always puzzled me-how is it Nicole's friends and presumably close friends never abandoned Faye as a friend?  It just seems odd with all the negative comments surrounding Faye, how and why is it these other people like Kathy Hilton, Kris Jenner, (apparently Kyle Richards-not that she was a someone) all seemed to just accept Faye's boundary crossing?  I can't explain it so I have to guess that there is more to Faye as a friend than what she published about her friendship with Nicole.  I agree she is a namedropper but apparently these name dropped people aren't bothered by her.  It is a mystery to me.  I have never thought of Kathy Hilton as particularly forgiving (oh wait she was BFFs with Michael Jackson), Kris Jenner doesn't seem to publicly hold grudges (maybe she does), Kyle just seems to have recently started cutting people off.  Anyway I don't get it.  Faye's friends have to know that she is capable of brutal honesty, it would seem like a risk to have her as a friend in this circle of aged out celebutantes.

 

I wonder how Kathryn feels about Kris Jenner?  Of course if she never read book she would not know of Kris's alleged comments.

It is no mystery to me.

They are the same type of people, IMO.

[zoeysmom]

I'd have to do more research on Denise Brown but I'd have to say that she ultimately behaved the most honorably of all friends and family of Nicole. She has continued her philanthropic work against domestic violence, declined offers to participate in documentaries if they bore O.J.'s name, and, as far as I know, didn't explicitly capitalize monetarily on Nicole's murder - even Nicole's dad sold either audio tapes or journals to a tabloid and Dominique Brown did the same with topless photographs of her sister.

Do some research.  Denise Brown management of funds of the foundation set up for her sister has been highly criticized.  According to many reports the money was basically used to pay her salary and expenses.  So while she may not cooperate with authors (who are looking to make a buck off her) she did earn her living making money off donations to the foundation set up in her sister's name.  Early release of the information regarding Denise's distribution may have resulted in a really poor showing of donations.

It is no mystery to me.

They are the same type of people, IMO.

I was hoping for something deeper.  It just seems strange that this group of people can go nutso over some imagined slight or comment but can overlook and defend Faye.

 

ETA-An example would be Kathy's Hilton treatment of her own sister Kyle.

Edited January 27, 2016 by zoeysmom

[LIMOM]

It is hard to go deeper for me as I don't know them IRL.

Basically, IMO Faye knows where all the bodies are buried and vice versa.

It is a mutually beneficial relationship for now, IMO.

As far as deep psychological analysis, not a clue.

I am not qualified to render internet diagnosis.

[BlackMamba]

Kris Jenner speaks on her friendship w Nicole and OJ:

http://www.people.com/article/kris-jenner-oj-simpson-trial-nicole-friends-family

[Satchels of gold]

Amen.   And it doesn't matter, should not matter, should never have mattered if Nicole was (one of) the other woman.  OJ was a fucking dog.  He controlled and manipulated a girl fresh out of fucking high school.  If she mooned after him and drove by his house dozens of times, SFW?  A lovesick 18 year old did that, someone get me the smelling salts!  The quiet enmity towards 'THOT/'other women'/'whores'/'sidepieces' in RH threads is be-fucking-wildering to me, but none ever more so than here.  Are we serious with this mess?  How??  How are we still in this thread talking (falsely) about how she was decapitated in her negligee when it wasn't even a negligee, it was a DRESS that she got slaughtered in?!?  When he was the person who controlled her from jump and beat and beat and beat her??  Jesus give me strength.  OJ ruined his first marriage.  OJ left his first wife.  OJ beat the hell out of his very young second wife as verified by timely photos (cough cough Taylor cough cough your timeline is a lie, slug lips) and OJ cut her head off the stabbed her friend to death. 

 

Fuck Faye Resnick forever.  She betrayed her abused, murdered friend.  She betrayed those children.  She burdened those children with spurious allegations about an affair that the alleged affair partner has flat-out denied.  And she did it and as a consequence, the foul conscience-free waste of life fucked with jury selection!  That is AMAZING to me.   There were consequences to this mess.  There was real harm.

 

Umbelina, I'm sorry.  You're a true friend.

Which supports my life view that in the fullness of time all wrongs are righted. OJ is in a jail cell for what probably will be the rest of his life and Faye is almost universally looked at as morally bankrupt. Time heals all wounds and wounds all heels.

[kokapetl]

Here is what has always puzzled me-how is it Nicole's friends and presumably close friends never abandoned Faye as a friend? It just seems odd with all the negative comments surrounding Faye, how and why is it these other people like Kathy Hilton, Kris Jenner, (apparently Kyle Richards-not that she was a someone) all seemed to just accept Faye's boundary crossing? I can't explain it so I have to guess that there is more to Faye as a friend than what she published about her friendship with Nicole. I agree she is a namedropper but apparently these name dropped people aren't bothered by her. It is a mystery to me. I have never thought of Kathy Hilton as particularly forgiving (oh wait she was BFFs with Michael Jackson), Kris Jenner doesn't seem to publicly hold grudges (maybe she does), Kyle just seems to have recently started cutting people off. Anyway I don't get it. Faye's friends have to know that she is capable of brutal honesty, it would seem like a risk to have her as a friend in this circle of aged out celebutantes.

I wonder how Kathryn feels about Kris Jenner? Of course if she never read book she would not know of Kris's alleged comments.

Kris Jenner and Kathy Hilton aren't exactly normal people. I think they have a no holds barred attitude to the pursuit of fame and fortune, and the pursuit of fame and fortune is really all that matters too. Both helped their daughters exploit sex tape notoriety into tens of millions of dollars. They aren't stupid, they're very ambitious, I bet they watch their words. I think they both have a rather limited capacity to be empathetic. What would actually disgust them? Edited January 27, 2016 by Kokapetl

[LIMOM]

Kris Jenner and Kathy Hilton aren't exactly normal people. I think they have a no holds barred attitude to the pursuit of fame and fortune, and the pursuit of fame and fortune is really all that matters too. Both helped their daughters exploit sex tape notoriety into tens of millions of dollars. They aren't stupid, they're very ambitious, I bet they watch their words. I think they both have a rather limited capacity to be empathetic. What would actually disgust them?

Yep. They are both madams pimping their progeny .

[ElDosEquis]

Do some research.  Denise Brown management of funds of the foundation set up for her sister has been highly criticized.  According to many reports the money was basically used to pay her salary and expenses.  So while she may not cooperate with authors (who are looking to make a buck off her) she did earn her living making money off donations to the foundation set up in her sister's name.  Early release of the information regarding Denise's distribution may have resulted in a really poor showing of donations.

I was hoping for something deeper.  It just seems strange that this group of people can go nutso over some imagined slight or comment but can overlook and defend Faye.

 

ETA-An example would be Kathy's Hilton treatment of her own sister Kyle.

A few years ago - maybe three? - I was having a discussion about the murders with my wife.

The talk turned to the NBS Foundation and I found a new blip on how the foundation had ceased to exist - The website is still up and registered in 2011, but the last personal appearance on behalf of the cause was in 2010. The article said that the foundation had a net worth of a few thousand dollars from it's last filings with the government. 

 

I do remember a kerfluffle about Denise being seen in a new car after she started the foundation and how people suspected that it was due to her steering some of the donations to benefit herself?

[zoeysmom]

I'm simply saying that repeating something as fact as if it is TRUTH, when there is absolutely no evidence of that other than a drug addict who profited from her "friend's" grisly murder isn't working for me.

 

As far as Nicole's abuse?  That was already well documented, and Faye certainly would know about all of the police reports.  The rest that she threw in the book to make it sell?  She had sex with Nicole, Marcus did, Nicole needed lots of black man sex?  UGH.  She's trash.

 

Marcus's "word" is more believable to me because he was under oath.

The problem with discounting everything because of a particular characteristic of a person is sometimes the truth gets overlooked.  I believe some of the jurors in the People v OJ Simpson, stated they disregarded all of Mark Fuhrman's testimony because both sides had conceded some parts of his character.  Mark Fuhrman was also under oath.  He was also painted to be a racist by his prior deeds and acts.  All his testimony gone.  Seems Draconian to me.

 

I did not read the Nicole needed lots of black man sex.  I thought it was said she just needed sex. 

 

You can deconstruct the probable credibility (or lack thereof) among these people until there's nothing left.

 

On the one hand, Faye does not simply assert in the text that NIcole told her that she was engaged in an affair with Marcus; as a precursor to that, Faye claims that Marcus propositioned and pursued her, Faye, via Nicole and directly to Faye before expressing any interest in Nicole. This series of anecdotes establishes the foundation of Marcus's alleged propensity toward infidelity sans hearsay and through direct eyewitness account.

 

However, if it would be "odd" for Faye to fabricate Nicole's alleged assertions that she was bedding Marcus, it would be at least as equally bizarre for Nicole to make those claims if they were baseless (since we're parsing the distinction between the premise that Nicole regaled Faye with these stories vs. the premise that Marcus and Nicole actually had an extended sexual relationship).

 

And there's also the documentation that Faye presented as fact editorializing on people (Kathryn) that she had never met.

 

From my perspective, there is a substantive difference between, say, privately counseling a girlfriend that it might be a practically dangerous idea to commence a romance with her psychotic ex-husband's best friend and instructing said girlfriend to apologize to said psychotic ex-husband while he's threatening and screaming at her. The former is offering measured guidance; the latter is participating in and bolstering the Kafkaesque lunacy of the abuser.

 

ETA: I see no reason why Nicole's extramarital pursuit of OJ and the possibility and/or probability that he subsequently authored much of her character (or at least succeeded in making her believe that he authored her identity) are mutually exclusive propositions. People can evolve considerably between 18 and 28 without dramatic influence, much less that of a physically abusive significant other and a warped blueprint for romantic dynamics.

I am reading two different stories here.  The direct quotes provided by Bravo indicate that the quote regarding Kathryn began with Kris Jenner. Has Kathryn ever met Kris Jenner?   In the direct quote from Faye she described her as "sweet".  I also read the pursuit of Faye or a pass by Marcus, was while he was involved not married to Kathryn.

[poeticlicensed]

re: Jury selection

 

I left out democrat-it should have read, Catholic, democrat, married, school teachers.

 

I am a research librarian at a major university and a former law librarian. My colleagues and I all joke that a jury summons means we are absolutely going to serve on a jury. Those attorneys take one look at our occupation and kaboom, it's jury time, just like clockwork. I have never been impaneled and not been selected. Never. And most of my colleagues are in the same boat. 

[zoeysmom]

Tagging on to jury selection, I wonder how many people were dismissed due to hardship?  Single parents, sole wage earners in the home, whose employers don't pay for jury service, people with health conditions would have all been dismissed due to hardship.  Utility companies, municipalities, counties, federal government,school districts are usually pretty good about paying wages during jury service.  These people were locked up for almost a year.  That leaves retirees and non-working spouses or those lucky enough to receive their wages while serving.  California pays about $10 a day for jury service and mileage.  Obviously sequestered jurors don't have mileage issues.

[Umbelina]

Which supports my life view that in the fullness of time all wrongs are righted. OJ is in a jail cell for what probably will be the rest of his life and Faye is almost universally looked at as morally bankrupt. Time heals all wounds and wounds all heels.

Actually, I was just reading on line yesterday that he's due for release in a year, maybe sooner.  Also, he's bitching that they aren't letting him out for surgery on his knee.  He says he's rich enough to afford the best doctors in one article, in the other he's begging friends for money.   This is from March, 2015.  He's also up to 340 pounds according to those articles.

OJ may be getting released from prison in 2017 on parole and he's telling the other inmates it looks like he's going to be leaving there in a wheelchair.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2975911/I-ll-wheelchair-leave-jail-340-pound-OJ-Simpson-says-left-knee-deteriorated-badly-needs-cane-walk-fears-unless-gets-special-surgery-won-t-able-all.html#ixzz3yTT9LZOc

 

Kind of a good article here, about the effect on popular culture/reality shows.  As we were saying earlier, without OJ we may have never had RH on BRAVO. 

http://www.vanityfair.com/style/society/2014/06/oj-simpson-trial-reality-tv-pop-culture

 

Variety's review of the TV show Bravo is trying to tie into RHBH http://variety.com/2016/tv/reviews/the-people-v-o-j-simpson-american-crime-story-review-fx-john-travolta-cuba-gooding-jr-ryan-murphy-1201684402/

 

The cast is kind of interesting, including the woman slated to play Faye.  http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/photos/2016/01/people-v-oj-simpson-real-people

 

 

 

Here is what has always puzzled me-how is it Nicole's friends and presumably close friends never abandoned Faye as a friend?  It just seems odd with all the negative comments surrounding Faye, how and why is it these other people like Kathy Hilton, Kris Jenner, (apparently Kyle Richards-not that she was a someone) all seemed to just accept Faye's boundary crossing?  I can't explain it so I have to guess that there is more to Faye as a friend than what she published about her friendship with Nicole.  I agree she is a namedropper but apparently these name dropped people aren't bothered by her.  It is a mystery to me.  I have never thought of Kathy Hilton as particularly forgiving (oh wait she was BFFs with Michael Jackson), Kris Jenner doesn't seem to publicly hold grudges (maybe she does), Kyle just seems to have recently started cutting people off.  Anyway I don't get it.  Faye's friends have to know that she is capable of brutal honesty, it would seem like a risk to have her as a friend in this circle of aged out celebutantes.

 

I wonder how Kathryn feels about Kris Jenner?  Of course if she never read book she would not know of Kris's alleged comments.    

 

To the last comment, she didn't really have to read the book to know what was said.  Remember those days?  EVERYONE was watching and reading about that trial, especially in LA.  The most salacious of Faye's comments blared from TV from commentators at odd times, and from just about every magazine or newspaper around.  It would have been pretty much impossible not to know what she'd said about Marcus and Kathryn.  Kathryn pretty much said that last night and in her blog.  I can believe her on that one, though she may read it now.  I read most of them, but not Faye's.  Maybe it's time, but back then, it was everywhere and she completely disgusted me.

 

To the first part, who knows?  I think Kyle glomming on and making the older woman her "my best friend!"may have something to do with it.  Would the others have exited stage left when Faye's infamy faded had Kyle not kept her in the group?   From Dominick Dunne's articles, anyone with a real connection to OJ/Nicole was a huge GET and very popular.  The quest for information, especially insider tips was out of control.   Also, look at that group, not exactly wonderful examples of womanhood there.  Kris?  Kyle?  Kathy?  Faye? 

 

It could be many things, perhaps Faye is really good at making people feel good, perhaps they don't want their own secrets shared in a tell all, so they keep her close, perhaps her "pain" seemed real to that shallow group of women.  Maybe they thought they should support her so-called sobriety, and she grew on them?

 

ETA sorry, had to fix typos, haven't had my coffee yet.

Edited January 27, 2016 by Umbelina

[zoeysmom]

Like I said it is a mystery to me.  Faye would seem to be quite fungible yet they have all stayed buddies.  It was too long after the verdict Kyle and Mauricio married, Kris was married, Kathy was married and Faye seemed to be perpetually single but still in these women's lives. 

 

One thing for certain, for the women on this show who are so concerned about being viewed as judgmental-Kathryn jumped in with both feet. 

[mbutterfly]

Maybe this has been said, but I think Bravo was more interested in getting Faye in as a FOHW than Kyle probably was. I know she has Faye help her decorate, so there's some relationship, but I'm not certain they are anything like "best friends." I think Kyle is happy to be so connected to a big story line any time, any way. 

[lunastartron]

Faye is godmother to at least one of the Umansky daughters. She and Kyle are legitimate longtime (and, yes, probably "best") friends.