All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[Anna Yolei]

I think Ryan has talent he just has some issues in execution.

Probably the kindest accessment of RM's abilities. Season five had its stand-out good episodes, like the Christmas episode and the New York reboot. Even the Finn episode, which would have gotten views on the subject matter alone, was actually a well-written on its own right, playing on the strength of of the original cast.

Murphy and Co. have talent, but for whatever reason have chosen to phone it in arguably since season three, but certainly since the fourth. And it's too bad. I for one will never watch another show with RM at the helm because of his ADHD attention span on every show since Popular.

[camussie]

I never thought Finn would fit in NY, and Sam would fit even less.

 

 

Finn seemed just fine in New York in the season 2 nationals episode.  That is why Rachel saying he was "too country" for NYC was so jarring to me.  We just had an entire episode where he seemed to navigate the city just fine and enjoyed what it had to offer.  Now do I think he would have been happy raising a family in Manhattan? Probably not but even some of the most die hard city guys and gals move to the suburbs at that point in time. 

 

it also goes back to Finn himself never said he was "too country" for NYC.  Only Rachel did (and I still that attitude was one factor in him thinking he was not NY good).  This also is rooted in one of many pet peeves with the show - the idea that the only people who "belong" in New York are artists, fashionistas, and the people who serve them coffee.  An idea that they had both Rachel and Kurt echo which, to me, made them seem both out of touch and snobbish.

 

As for Sam he flat out said he gave NY a shot, even had success there, but he simply does not want to be there. In contrast they never even let Finn give NY a shot or really place a shot outside of Lima - something that was a complete betrayal of his original story. All because RM needed Finn to anchor his "glee is a franchise" experiment.  

 

All I really wanted for Finn was for him to try life outside of Lima/McKinley and to find some degree of success in those endeavors and then if he decided to return to Lima because that is where he wanted to be (versus accepting it as his fate)  so be it.  Of course any story like that would have been set in NY because there was no way they were going to fund 3 narratives but  my point is that I just needed them to be true to his original story.  That was the most important story to me.  Icing on the cake would have been him and Rachel together in the suburbs while she builds a career on Broadway and he teaches but I didn't need that to be satisfied with Glee's ending.  Cory's passing, of course prevented any sort of ending for Finn that honored his original story, but even if he had not passed RM's vision wouldn't have done so either.

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[dizzyizzy01]

it also goes back to Finn himself never said he was "too country" for NYC.  Only Rachel did (and I still that attitude was one factor in him thinking he was not NY good).  This also is rooted in one of many pet peeves with the show - the idea that the only people who "belong" in New York are artists, fashionistas, and the people who serve them coffee.  An idea that they had both Rachel and Kurt echo which, to me, made them seem both out of touch and snobbish.

 

 

Finn clearly felt out of place when he suddenly showed up to visit Rachel in NYC, and that's nobody's fault but his.  Rachel didn't do a fantastic job of making sure he was welcome, but what can you do when your ex suddenly shows up after not speaking to you for months.  Finn's the one that sent his fiance off on a train on their wedding day, chose to stay in Lima, which I thought was actually all a perfectly fine/probably even a good choice until he decided to not speak to her for months.  I think it was the right decision for both he and Rachel, even if the way they did it was really odd.  Rachel always wanted Finn to come with her to NY even if her plans were naive.  Finn is the one that chose to stay behind in Lima.  He's the one that chose to sneak out of the loft without talking things through with Rachel.  

 

Also, I don't think Rachel and Kurt ever perpetuated that idea that NY is only for artists, fashionistas, etc.  The show certainly did since that's just the limited people they were allowed to interact with.  They didn't think the people at the diner didn't belong in NY.  The show gives this weird vibe because that's the only thing we saw in NY, but none of the characters ever said that.  They just never interacted with anyone outside of their schools/jobs/internships.

[caracas1914]

Finn's the one that sent his fiance off on a train on their wedding day, chose to stay in Lima, which I thought was actually all a perfectly fine/probably even a good choice until he decided to not speak to her for months.

 

 

No.

 

Finn joined the army and also  left Lima.   When he got injured with a self inflicted gun wound he was discharged, IIRC he traveled awhile  and eventually came first to NY to see Rachel, and after their disastrous reunion,  returned to Lima, but it wasn't placed  in the context of some self realization that Lima is where he truly belonged.  It was more that he was floundering and needed to lick his wounds/regain his bearings.  After a while it seemed he developed a love/passion  for teaching  as he directed the ND choir, and even enrolled in LIma University, but that was shown as Season 4 unfolded.

 

Finn was restless since season one pilot. For awhile it seemed Finn thought that football was his ticket  out of Lima, but when that didn't pan out, he realize he still didn't quite know what he wanted to do with his life.   There was plot  digressions to starting a pool business in LA with Puck, even applying to the Actors Studio in New York (yea right).  

 

What Kurt had objected to was at one point in Season 3 Finn seemed willing to follow Rachel to New York and not have any plan/goals  for his own future so Kurt had encouraged him to apply to colleges in the NY area.  Thus the actor's studio application.  OF course by the end of S3 they had turned him down.

 

There was nothing wrong with Finn not knowing precisely what he wanted to do (one of the few actual "realistic" traits for a Glee character) with his life, but by Season 5, kicked out of the army and demoralized, he even thought NY was not a right fit for him, it moved "too fast". 

 

I would have thought that self discovering what he wanted to do with his life it would have made more  sense that Finn move in with Rachel and Kurt in the loft in NY, but the show was determined to drag Finn back to Lima to anchor the Noobs.   However the show never indicated until then that Finn felt Lima was where he belonged, as I noted above, quite the opposite for 3 seasons..

Edited December 12, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

Finn clearly felt out of place when he suddenly showed up to visit Rachel in NYC, and that's nobody's fault but his.  Rachel didn't do a fantastic job of making sure he was welcome, but what can you do when your ex suddenly shows up after not speaking to you for months.  Finn's the one that sent his fiance off on a train on their wedding day, chose to stay in Lima, which I thought was actually all a perfectly fine/probably even a good choice until he decided to not speak to her for months.  I think it was the right decision for both he and Rachel, even if the way they did it was really odd.  Rachel always wanted Finn to come with her to NY even if her plans were naive.  Finn is the one that chose to stay behind in Lima.  He's the one that chose to sneak out of the loft without talking things through with Rachel.

 

 

My point is he felt out of place in large part because he felt out of place in life as a whole.  He had no plans.  His attempt at trying to make himself in the army ended in disaster.  He was completely lost and NY only magnified that.  That is why I feel it is undetermined if Finn would have been happy or not in the greater NYC area.  When his life was in a pretty good place he seemed to like the city just fine.  When it was in shambles  he felt out of place and thought the city was "too fast" for him.  

 

As for Rachel sure she  was welcoming when he showed up on her doorstep but I also have always felt like both Rachel and Kurt were somewhat snobbish about who "belongs" in New York and who doesn't.  Most of it was an attitude they carried (and again I think that attitude was simply reflective of how RM viewed NY).  The "too country" remark from Rachel was one time it was out there versus just an attitude. Also  Rachel said over and over in season 3 she wanted Finn there for her but she never gave the impression, to me, that she thought he belonged there in his own right.  Rather he belonged there as someone she needed there to support her.   To me there is a difference between the two.  

When he got injured with a self inflicted gun wound he was discharged, IIRC he traveled awhile  and eventually came first to NY to see Rachel, and after their disastrous reunion,  returned to Lima,

 

 

There is this too.  For a guy who was "too country" to make it in NY he seemed to find a way to support himself for 3-4 months with little to no parental support. Those same skills could be used to give any big city a try.  

 

I would have thought that self discovering what he wanted to do with his life it would have made more  sense that Finn move in with Rachel and Kurt in the loft in NY

 

 

I actually didn't mind Finn discovering his passion for teaching while getting his bearings back in Lima.  I even thought it was one of the few cohesive arcs in season 4.  The issue was that it was a good START to his story but it shouldn't have been his whole story.  We should have come back from the holiday hiatus to Finn already enrolled at U of Lima and by the end of the year Finn's desire to prove himself beyond Lima should have had him transferring colleges.  Instead of that we got Finn stalled at McKinley after the break while BLAM! became the McKinley leads and Finn only started college in April (which made no sense).  Basically by 411 Finn had begun his transition to Will of seasons 2 and 3 2.0 i.e. riding the whiteboard while supporting the "kids" stories.  

 

That along with RM and Fox's touting the new Glee cast as kids who could tour, etc, even before season 4 began tells me that his revised history of we kept Lima as a narrative to support Finn's story is total BS.  Finn had a story in 405-9 with a coda in 419.  The rest of the time he was there to anchor the newbies and Blam!  They certainly didn't give contracts to 5 newbies (they all got 13 episode contracts a couple of weeks before Cory passed) and pay for 2 narratives to support Finn's story.  They did it in hopes of record sales and concerts.  

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[dizzyizzy01]

Finn joined the army and also  left Lima.   When he got injured with a self inflicted gun wound he was discharged, IIRC he traveled awhile  and eventually came first to NY to see Rachel, and after their disastrous reunion,  returned to Lima, but it wasn't placed  in the context of some self realization that Lima is where he truly belonged.

 

 

Fair point.  The whole army thing was so stupidly handled I forgot about it, but the point stands that Finn chose not to go to NY and when he made it there he chose to leave after a couple of days.  

 

Also  Rachel said over and over in season 3 she wanted Finn there for her but she never gave the impression, to me, that she thought he belonged there in his own right.  Rather he belonged there as someone she needed there to support her.   To me there is a difference between the two.

 

Rachel was 16, it wasn't really a reasonable expectation for her to define Finn's future. It's not a reasonable expectation for any high school kid.  I think it was enough that she encouraged him in his football thing and Pace/actor thing.  Just as it was reasonable enough for Finn to encourage Rachel to go to NY.  That was all very normal high school bf/gf behavior.  What happened on top of that was stupid.  They should have just broken up after they realized they were headed in different directions, but instead there was a stupid proposal.

[camussie]

I didn't expect Rachel to define Finn's future.  My point was that I never got the impression she felt Finn fit in NY.  She even said he didn't in season 2 but by season 3 she wanted him there anyway to support her (versus wanting him there so he could find his dream outside of Lima).  I think that was one of many factors on why Finn simply didn't follow Rachel to NY.    

 

I also think some of that attitude about who  belonged in NY (meaning people who could make it in the city) was always there.  Rachel especially, but Kurt as well, were always a bit snobbish about how their talent made then tailor made for NY while others simply didn't have that going for them.  

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I actually didn't mind Finn discovering his passion for teaching while getting his bearings back in Lima.  I even thought it was one of the few cohesive arcs in season 4.  The issue was that it was a good START to his story but it shouldn't have been his whole story.  We should have come back from the holiday hiatus to Finn already enrolled at U of Lima and by the end of the year Finn's desire to prove himself beyond Lima should have had him transferring colleges.  Instead of that we got Finn stalled at McKinley after the break while BLAM! became the McKinley leads and Finn only started college in April (which made no sense).  Basically by 411 Finn had begun his transition to Will of seasons 2 and 3 2.0 i.e. riding the whiteboard while supporting the "kids" stories.

 

 

Yes, the problem was that Ryan and company weren't really interested in the Finn journey. (Don't get me started how chicken shit  Ryan Murphy has been placing getting rid of the Noobs on Cory's death).

 

 

I also think some of that attitude about who  belonged in NY (meaning people who could make it in the city) was always there.  Rachel especially, but Kurt as well, were always a bit snobbish about how their talent made then tailor made for NY while others simply didn't have that going for them.

 

In season Kurt didn't object to  Finn going to NY, but rather that he go there for himself, not just for Rachel,  thus showing Finn those brochures of all those colleges in the NY area.

 

Kurt and Rachel thinking they belonged in NY (because of their love and dreams of Broadway careers) was never shown on screen by their stating that  others didn't deserve to be there.  Of course Hummelberry (and Mercedes) thought they were special, but they thought that also in Lima, Ohio. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

No they weren't.  They were interested in having him anchor their franchising Glee experiment and really nothing else.  If RM got his way his story and eventually Rachel's story (in the last 5 minutes of the series) were going to be trashed just to keep the choir room as the show's central character.

 

As for Kurt and especially Rachel's attitude the "too country" thing was said and Kurt agreed with it.  I think that view was an undercurrent in their attitudes.  Now part of me feeling that is how insulated NY seemed in that the gang really only did seem to interact with aspiring artists, fashionistas, and the people who served them coffee.  It was just such a myopic presentation of NY that I feel like it made Kurt and Rachel seem  insular because of it.  Well that and their "triumphant return" to McKinley during the production of Grease.  

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

No they weren't.  They were interested in having him anchor their franchising Glee experiment and really nothing else.  If RM got his way his story and eventually Rachel's story (in the last 5 minutes of the series) were going to be trashed just to keep the choir room as the show's central character

 

It seemed an open secret that Matt Morrison wanted badly to leave the show, and after Cory's death said he expected to be gone by the end of Season 4 (or was it Season 5 ?).  Finn as the new Chalkboard Will was telegraphed quite transparently.

[dizzyizzy01]

My point was that I never got the impression she felt Finn fit in NY.  She even said he didn't in season 3 but by season 4 she wanted him there anyway to support her (versus wanting him there so he could find his dream outside of Lima

 

 

I don't think that's true.  Then why did Rachel agree to marry him when she was sure she was NY bound?  It was all very naive thinking, but Rachel did encourage Finn and always planned for Finn to come with her.  It wasn't well thought out, otherwise she wouldn't have accepted a proposal at 16, but she wasn't the reason Finn had self-doubt.  Finn's self-doubt came from feeling lost after the football thing and getting rejected from schools.  Then there was Finn randomly wanting to move to LA with Puck.  That's when the doubt about NY creeped in for Rachel.  Finn isn't the only party at fault for their relationship's demise, but Rachel's supposed lack of support wasn't the reason Finn didn't feel like he belonged in NY.

I also think some of that attitude about who  belonged in NY (meaning people who could make it in the city) was always there.  Rachel especially, but Kurt as well, were always a bit snobbish about how their talent made then tailor made for NY while others simply didn't have that going for them.

 

 

I think the show did that because everyone that moved to NY was pursuing a creative career.  I don't recall Rachel or any of the characters really saying that.

[Sara2009]

It seemed an open secret that Matt Morrison wanted badly to leave the show, and after Cory's death said he expected to be gone by the end of Season 4 (or was it Season 5 ?). Finn as the

new Chalkboard Will was telegraphed quite

transparently.

It was season 5. I think he was supposed to leave in the middle of the season.

Matt didn't actually come out and say Cory's death was the reason he was staying, though.

[camussie]

My own feeling is this

• When they decided to let MM out of his contract they decided then and there to extend the school year to 512/13 because they realized that Will's departure would be a great way to celebrate the 100
• After that we would have had concurrent summer arcs in Lima & NY where Finn worked to keep the newbies together despite ND disbanding.  He also would have had Tina, Artie's and maybe Sam's help doing so.  Blaine would have moved to NY 
• The season would have ended with Rachel's FG debut and the cliffhanger of her asking Finn to move to NY
• Season 6 would have started with the year skip when we found out that Finn said no.  Artie would have re-located to NY by this point in time.  Tina would be off at Brown.  
• This is also the point in time where Rachel would have felt restless and decided to see what TV/film has to offer.  She would still be NY based though
• The season would consist of Finn anchoring the newbies and Rachel and others pursuing careers in NY and it would have ended with the last episode being a time jump where Rachel returns home to Lima/Finn

 

The one thing Fox did to mitigate in case they needed to close down Lima due to spiraling ratings was only give he newbies 13 episode contracts.  If ratings reached the low points they did, even with Cory alive, I think episode 13 would ended with Finn leaving Lima to go to school in NY.  

 

As for what as the tipping point to going down to one narrative -  I still say when Glee dropped to 1.6 in demos in 502.  2.0 was fine to keep 2 narratives.  1.6 was not.  They were filming "The end of Twerk" when those ratings came in so there wasn't much that could be changed but by 2 episodes later (PuppetMaster) the newbies weren't getting really any focus and instead McKinley was all about Sam/Tina/ Blaine.  

 

As far as this season Fox obviously doesn't give a hoot beyond I think wanting Jane Lynch to have a role.  

 

Finn isn't the only party at fault for their relationship's demise, but Rachel's supposed lack of support wasn't the reason Finn didn't feel like he belonged in NY.

 

 

I don't think it was the sole reason but I  think it was a factor.  Still  I think there was an attitude there that Finn belonged in NY because she needed  him to support her but NY also wasn't really a place he fit in beyond that.   Obviously that was something she felt on some level since she flat out told Kurt Finn was too country for the city.  

 

The biggest factor was of course how out of sorts he felt in general which is why I still say that we never would really know if Finn could make it there or not.  He seemed to like it in season 2 and didn't when his life was in the crapper in season 4.

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[dizzyizzy01]

Obviously that was something she felt on some level since she flat out told Kurt Finn was too country for the city.

 

 

I forgot when Rachel said that.  Was it during S3?  Finn was the one that said he didn't belong there in the break up.  A lot of S3 was Finn already feeling lost after the football thing.  He was kind of all over the place, which was what led to the engagement in the first place.  His mindset was very normal high school boy and would have been an interesting story line if they hadn't gone down the teen engagement path.

[jaytee1812]

As for what as the tipping point to going down to one narrative -  I still say when Glee dropped to 1.6 in demos in 502.  2.0 was fine to keep 2 narratives.  1.6 was not.  They were filming "The end of Twerk" when those ratings came in so there wasn't much that could be changed but by 2 episodes later (PuppetMaster) the newbies weren't getting really any focus and instead McKinley was all about Sam/Tina/ Blaine.  

Actually it was about Sam and Blaine. Tina was there to kiss their ass because RM thinks women of colour are just good for, actually that's all he thinks people of colour are good for.

That's the funniest thing of all. He tried to stop the fall in ratings by making the cause of it the centre of the storylines.

[camussie]

She said that in "New York"  the morning after Finn had just taken her on a date all over the city and didn't get lost or confused once.  Not to mention when he was jubilantly singing with the rest of ND about the wonders of NY.  To me if she can say that about him when he seemed to handle NY just fine that is obviously something she believed on some level. 

 

As for the teen engagement path I actually didn't mind it in concept because the entire premise was built on how this was the wrong path for them.  I would have just changed a few things

• Having Finn get rejected from division 2 football program in New York or New Jersey.  The whole if i can't make it at OSU (one of the premiere football programs in the country, I can't make it anywhere) makes me stabby because of how unrealistic it is
• Moving up Rachel's choke and that is what prompted her to say yes.  It would have made it even more obvious both were going down this foolish path out of desperation
• This in turn would have given the NY versus LA argument better context.  Rachel (and everyone) would have thought she blew her chance at NYADA so why wouldn't Finn want to consider other options?
• Have Finn applying to regular colleges in NYC and Long Island.  Hell even use the fictitious Hudson U and those applications are why he is freaked about Sebastian's threat.  He knows this is his last chance for some sort of future plans in the NY area and he also knows schools check social media networks and that could torpedo his chance.  Likewise Rachel knows that if she is to get a second bite of the NYADA apple or into another school she needs to keep her performing profile up so they can't give into Sebastian's blackmail.  It would have been a real conflict for them rooted in their respective futures.  
• Can the whole Finn/Rachel "decide to get married before school ends because Dave Karofsky tried to commit suicide" stupidity.  If they wanted to do something like that simply have them say they are shortening what was expected to be a years long engagement to getting married right after graduation as they both plan to head to NY anyway.
• Have Brad, the piano player, some how know Carmen Tibbadeux and he be the one who gets her to come Nationals.  Not because he is rooting for Rachel but because he has nightmares of her  and Finn sticking around Lima and that choir room.  He wants them gone.  In fact I think all of props should have been an episode told from the bands POV.
• Have Finn get rejected by Hudson U while Rachel is accepted to NYADA but they both still plan on going to NY right after their wedding
• The day of the wedding have Finn back out and say he can't marry her or go to NY with her because right now he feels like he will just drag her dreams down

 

To me those actually very minor changes would have made the whole engagement story better and made for better stories for both Finn and Rachel.  

 

This also brings up another point.  I didn't think all of RM's stories were bad ideas but the execution sucked on so many of them.

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[dizzyizzy01]

She said that in "New York"  the morning after Finn had just taken her on a date all over the city and didn't get lost or confused once.

 

 

They weren't even back together yet though.  That sounded to me like she was trying to figure out what she wanted to do for HER future.  In other words, did she want to get back together with a high school boyfriend when her plans were about moving away at the end of the year.  Did she want that added complication to her decision making process?  Not to mention, that was after Rachel had screwed up with Puck and Finn had been a giant ass to her about it.

 

The engagement story could have certainly been executed better to improve upon it, but I still think they could have told better stories for both characters without the engagement.

[camussie]

If it was simply about her plans she could have just told Kurt well Finn and I aren't together so he doesn't really figure in here.  Instead she said  he was too country for New York thus putting the reason on why she thought he didn't factor in on an issue she saw in him in relation to NY.  She said  and I have no reason to believe she didn't mean it.  And in my opinion there was always an undercurrent of that attitude which was one of the factors (although as I said not the most important one) of why Finn gave up on NY in 404.  

Edited December 12, 2014 by camussie

[caracas1914]

I thought Finn was at a very low point when he finally contacted Rachel in NY after months of silence.

 

Even when he first got back to Lima after that, it was just so bad for him.  Kicked out of the army, broken up with his girlfriend , so he was crying with Will in that choir room and back in Lima.

 

It was believable to me that he was at such a bad place he felt out of place in NY, and being there with the "Broadway or bust" Hummlberry  twins couldn't have helped his self esteem as far as his own motivations/drive and what he wanted to do.  The problem was that the show also pounded home that he and Rachel were eternal soul mates and would end up together.

 

Rachel and Finn being at different place in life is one thing, but the show kept on pointing to them "belonging" together which seemed to contradict all the narrative they actually wrote.

[camussie]

I think they went a little too far with the Finn is at a low point.

• As I said it actually started with the whole OSU stupidity. To make that more believable they should have changed that to a division 2 school.  
• Then it continued with your dad died from an overdose plot.  That was needed to get Finn to a place of wanting to join the army,  I just wish it was a scene between Finn and Carol instead of essentially Finn and Burt with Carol making a cameo
• Then it as the whole PACE hail mary,  That should have been a regular NY school
• Then it was shooting himself out of the army.  Finn had been shown to be mechanically adept in the past so that was just piling on.  They could have given him an undiagnosed back injury from football or if they wanted to keep some humor up have a mail truck run into him 
• Then the whole 404 retcon. It was obvious to me they were broken up in 323 so why did they have Finn act like they were still together?  They should have had him go to NY wanting a second chance and being quickly confronted with the reality that he was right that Rachel belonged in NY at that point in time and he didn't. He then writes a note and leaves.  That isn't enough for Rachel so she follows him back to Lima and has her say, which I think was essential for her story at that point in time.

 

As for going forward I would have included the Will/Finn scene but not Finn in the choir room.  Instead I would have left 404 as his lowest point with no hope.  Then in 405 I would have had Arty visit the shop to get some staging ideas for Grease and then ask Finn for some pointers on arrangements on a couple of the numbers since he had proven to have a talent in musical arranging in the past.  That would have morphed into Finn helping out with the musical which would have led into him coaching ND while Will was on leave.  

 

The one change I would have made there is not having the grads  come in as musical coaches.  Mercedes should have been used in the NY narrative instead as she was needed there and also because it undermined Finn's musical abilities to have her come in and coach like that.  

[dizzyizzy01]

And in my opinion there was always an undercurrent of that attitude which was one of the factors (although as I said not the most important one) of why Finn gave up on NY in 404.

 

 

I think Finn gave up NY because of the reasons caracas1914 stated.  It wasn't because Rachel said Finn was too country for NY to Kurt in S2.  Throughout S3, Rachel never gave the impression that she thought Finn couldn't make it in NY.  She planned on marrying the dude and moving to NY with him.  I don't know how that would have played into some undercurrent of thinking Finn couldn't make it there.  

 

Of course, when he finally got there in 404, they were so obviously in different places in their lives that it was clear Finn was out of place in Rachel's life in NY, but I can't really put that on Rachel.

[caracas1914]

The narrative laid it sooo thick in New York, to the point that Finn said he hadn't sang in months. Say what you will about Finn but before that Canon Finn always loved singing with Rachel, in NY he was reduced to having zeo mojo that he even deferred to Rachel doing Karaokee with Brody instead.

More than out of place in NY he wasn't happy with himself.

Edited December 12, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Funny the seem to be doing the same thing to Rachel  (laying it on thick) to get her back to Lima.

[caracas1914]

The difference is that Rachel will IMO get her ultimate professional success before the series end, with Finn I don't think the show cared about much career fulfillment with him. Being a teacher in Lima would be more about being the mentor for young kids just a couple of years younger than him.

It's going to be a zero shocker if Rachel ends up with an even bigger triumph in Broadway, the same way she choked her first NYADA audition and still ended up Homecoming Queen, winning Nationals AND getting into NYADA by S3 finale.

NYADA gave her hurdles but she won the Winter showcase as a freshman and had Cassandra kissing her ass.

IMO going back to Lima defeated is just to give Rachel an even bigger triumph in the end.

Edited December 12, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

The difference is that Rachel will IMO get her ultimate professional success before the series end, with Finn I don't think the show cared about much career fulfillment with him. Being a teacher in Lima would be more about being the mentor for young kids just a couple of years younger than him.

It's going to be a zero shocker if Rachel ends up with an even bigger triumph in Broadway, the same way she choked her first NYADA audition and still ended up Homecoming Queen, winning Nationals AND getting into NYADA by S3 finale.

NYADA gave her hurdles but she won the Winter showcase as a freshman and had Cassandra kissing her ass.

IMO going back to Lima defeated is just to give Rachel an even bigger triumph in the end.

 

Missed the point.  Was pointing out how they are just trying to redo the story to force Rachel into his storyline by putting her at the lowest point to even have a reason to stay in Lima was all.    Not looking at the over all out come.  Even though on a smaller scale Finn would have found his way and had some triumph even if it was just getting the club back to Nationals.

[camussie]

And i think you missed the point.  First Finn and now Rachel/Blaine/Kurt are being kept in Lima longer than they should have been all because RM has a choir room fetish.  It isn't  Finn's story that she is being forced into.  It is whatever story that keeps the choir room  as the central narratives.  A lot of people seemed to think it was okay to do that to Finn even though it was completely contrary to the story they were building up to for him for the first 3 seasons and now have an issue when it is being done to Rachel/Kurt/Blaine.  Personally I think it was a suck story for Finn and is a suck story for Rachel/Kurt/Blaine.  

Edited December 15, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

And i think you missed the point.  First Finn and now Rachel/Blaine/Kurt are being kept in Lima longer than they should have been all because RM has a choir room fetish.  It isn't  Finn's story that she is being forced into.  It is whatever story that keeps the choir room  as the central narratives.  A lot of people seemed to think it was okay to do that to Finn even though it was completely contrary to the story they were building up to for him for the first 3 seasons and now have an issue when it is being done to Rachel/Kurt/Blaine.  Personally I think it was a suck story for Finn and is a suck story for Rachel/Kurt/Blaine.  

 

Talking two  different things.

 

I was just pointing out the similarities of getting them back to Lima and basically piling on things to make it their lowest point.   Wasn't analyzing every bit of it.

 

Not arguing Ryan wanted the  choir room but essential  since Finn can be there it is not being used for Rachel and to hers ergo forcing them into that choir room. 

[Pink ranger]

The first thirteen episodes of season 5 featured Will as the director of ND while The original NYC crew continued there. These where obviously created somewhat as a defaut in the immidiate aftermath of Cory's death but I wonder why they decided not to continue with this format IE have Will teach ND 3.0 while continue to follow the graduates in NYC.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Pink ranger

[camussie]

I disagree the first 13 episodes were a default in the aftermath of Cory's death.  I think even before Cory's passing the first 13 episodes of season 5 were planned as the wrap-up to the 2012/13 school year with it culminating in graduation and Will leaving.  It seems the only real differences were:

• Will leading ND alone versus co-leading with Finn (which is why we saw an uptick in his songs)
• Sam being slotted into the Penny romance
• Rachel not having a mid term fling with either her co-star or director

 

As far as why they decided not to continue with that format - simple answer costs.  Ratings couldn't sustain 2 narratives.  As I said above I think when demos hit 1.6 in episode 502 Fox told RM & team to shut down Lima to save costs.  Given that Fox gave the 5 newbies only 13 episode contracts (again before Cory passed) I think this was always something they considered a possibility  meaning even if Cory had not passed and ratings still reached a point too low to sustain 2 narratives I think Lima would have been shut down.  

 

To me that means the real question is would ratings have reached that point if Cory had not passed?  IMO yes they would have.  Maybe not by 502 but sometime in that first half.  I think that die was cast the second they decided to extend the school year.  That is why RM scapegoating Cory's death as the reason they shut down Lima is so vile.  

[Pink ranger]

Would 2 naratives really cost more than the current format though? All of the NYC sets are allready built, cost saving measures on cast can be made by having the series regulars interact largely with each other, and a major NYC guest star and extras didn't have to cost more than Max George and the Warbler/VA members.

[Myrna123]

I don't think an entire season of this show has ever been planned (maybe the 13 eps of the first season), and if it was planned, those plans derailed in the first few weeks of a new season when Murphy would get one of his scathingly brilliant ideas. Maybe the choir room was always central to Murphy's idea of what the show was about, but who was in Lima, who was in the choir room and whether that presence was a victory or a consolation prize could change from minute to minute in any given episode.

I don't think it's possible to say what would had happened if Cory hadn't died (beyond the scraps of story lines in position at the end of Cory's last season) because Murphy et. al. would have tossed 10 different plots out there depending upon the direction of the wind and position of the stars.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Myrna123

[camussie]

I agree that most of the season isn't planned but I also think they wanted to do a big celebration for the 100th and the most natural way to do that has always been some sort of tribute to Will.  Couple that with the fact that MM said he was supposed to leave in season 5 but circumstances changed things I think it is a very educated guess to say that originally the 100th was supposed to be Will's last episode.  From there it is easy to say that that also would have been the end of the school year since Fox coming to a verbal agreement with MM to let him out of his contract early and the decision to extend the school year into season 5 both happened the Spring of 2013.  

[Pink ranger]

Hypothetically of course what do you think the show might have looked like had Matt never planned on leaving and Will was written as leading ND 2.0 from the beginning of season 4.

[jaytee1812]

Hypothetically of course what do you think the show might have looked like had Matt never planned on leaving and Will was written as leading ND 2.0 from the beginning of season 4.

With a few tweaks (like better writing) ND 2.0 could've been a success. I think it would've benefited from writing the graduates out completely except for the odd guest appearance. But I wouldn't have had as many leave at the end of season three and would've had some gone at the end of season 2.

[camussie]

Would 2 naratives really cost more than the current format though?

 

 

Yes.  Most of the sets aren't standing sets so it costs time and money set up and strike sets.  Two narratives equals more sets.  Also the 5 newbies only had a contract for 13 episodes so each additional episode they did would have had to include their salaries.

 

Hypothetically of course what do you think the show might have looked like had Matt never planned on leaving and Will was written as leading ND 2.0 from the beginning of season 4.

 

 

I think it would have been both Finn/Will leading ND with Will having less and less of a role.  By season 4 they had degraded Will's role so much that he wasn't enough of a lead to anchor the Lima narrative.  

 

High school shows can go one of two directions

1. The town/high school is the central narrative i.e. the Friday Night Lights model.  To do that the characters who won't transition out of that setting need to be central to the narrative.  See Coach and Tammy Taylor
2. The original students and their lives are the central narrative i.e. the 90210 model.  This is when the students, who will transition away from the high school, are the focus

 

That is why I always say, whether RM and team understood it or not, Glee  really made the decision to follow the 90210 model way back in season 2 when they started degrading Will's role in order to give the show more time to focus on the "kids."  I don't think they necessarily planned this but rather gravitated that direction after the tours got so much buzz.  Still that was the decision they fell into so it was pure foolishness to try and "split the baby" in season 4 and try and do both models.  

 

It also would have been pure foolishness to try to split the baby by doing a spin-off that followed some of the graduates (Rachel, Finn, Kurt, Santana) as was one option thrown out there during the media storm between seasons 2 and 3.   What Glee needed to do at the end of season 3 was bite the bullet and leave Lima since that had been the direction they had been heading since season 2.  

 

If they wanted to keep choir central that should have always been baked into their writing.  First of all Will should have stayed front and center.  Next some of originals should have graduated at the end of season 2 (Puck, Quinn, Mike, and maybe Finn).  Some more at the end of season 3 (Santana, Kurt, Rachel, and Mercedes) and so on.  To do that, though, required a showrunner doesn't have ADD treated with crack washed down by Red Bull

Edited December 15, 2014 by camussie

[Pink ranger]

I wonder if it would have benifited Matthew in the long run to have gone on the 2011 Glee tours. Jane as well actually because the two of them could have played off each other as the " adult" leads. They whent to one the previous year and the you tube clip of Will and Puck singing over the rainbow had almost as many views as the rest of the performances.

[Sara2009]

I won't begrudge Matt for wanting to do non-"Glee" related things during the summer. I think the " kids" kind of got a raw deal by being forced to do the tours.

The writers started scaling Will's role back in the second half of season 1.

[Pink ranger]

Camussie I didn't say that the 2012/2013 school year ending at the 100th episode was written as a default, that course was set in motion when they extended the school year at the end of season 4, but that Will leading ND the first half of season 5 was. I was questioning why they sent him to VA for season 6 and brought Rachel back to be the ND coach instead of letting both stay where they where and IMO belong.

[camussie]

I would agree Will leading ND by himself for the first half of season 5 was a default because of Finn's passing but I think, had Finn not passed, Will and Finn were going to be co-leaders with Will being written off of the series in 512.   In a way that was happened anyway, at least for the remainder of season 5.  Will was written off except for a short guest appearance in "Opening Night" which gave Matthew time to do some other projects he may have committed to when he thought he was leaving the show for good.  

 

As for why the whole 3 show choirs thing in season 6 - because RM think the choir room is the heart of the show so we are back in Lima.  Not to mention they shot their wad way too early with Rachel's getting "Funny Girl" so soon (something else that was set up before Cory passed).  

[SeanC]

In honour of Christmas, the Glee Christmas episodes, ranked from execrable to best:

 

4.  A Very Glee Christmas - the nadir of the show's infantilizing treatment of Brittany (actually, there's been a few of those, but I don't want to think about them all enough to decide which is worst), and the terrible season 2 Rachel/Finn breakup/makeup plot drags on with Finn's sanctimonious behaviour and Rachel's abject begging. Bonus "points" for the ReWalk, one of those things the writers had to have known would never be mentioned again even as they wrote the episode.  Grade:  F.

 

3.  Glee, Actually - My memory of this episode is pretty hazy, as it tends to be for Season 4 episodes that don't have Santana in them, but I recall the Puck/Jake plot being fine, and the brief bit with Marley and her mother as well. The Brittany/Sam stuff is, well, idiotic, and the stuff with Burt having cancer is some of the most manipulative storytelling in the history of the show (particularly given that I think this is mentioned in like, one more episode).  Grade:  D+.

 

2.  Extraordinary Merry Christmas - the cast singing "Do They Know It's Christmas?" to the occupants of a homeless shelter is one of the most tone-dead song selections in the history of the show, and the stuff about Rachel learning not to be materialistic was irritating (and, together with Brittany and Santana's invisibility, capped a really terrible run for the show in terms of female representation, not that they've ever been very good at that), but the fake Christmas special is tolerably amusing.  Grade:  C+.

 

1.  Previously Unaired Christmas - the show manages a good Christmas episode, and it's the one that isn't canon.  The New York segment is full of stuff that the show should have done way more of in that setting, such as the kids having silly/annoying jobs, and the black comedy aspects actually work.  And the Lima segment is actually pretty good too, remarkably; rather hilariously, the writers manage to plug in actual foreshadowing for things like Kitty's change of attitude, which happened for no real reason in the previous season.  Grade:  A-.

[tom87]

1. Previously unaired Christmas.   A-  / First time I liked both NY and Lima.  I even laughed at some of the Lima parts.   The NY part was on point the whole time.

2. Extraordinary Merry Christmas -  B -  /sue me I liked the cheesy ott black and white stuff.

3. A Very Glee Christmas - D - /I liked them trying to raise money but the Sue the Grinch stuff was stupid as was Brittany.

4. Glee Actually - F- / On my list of worse episodes.   Burt bringing Blaine to NY, wtf???   Artie's head canon is mess up and don't remember the other  bits.

Edited December 26, 2014 by tom87

[camussie]

I liked the content of "Previously Unaired Christmas" but I rank it dead last because I can't get over my distaste of setting it in a time when Finn was alive and much more active in leading ND than Will and simply writing him out of the episode as if he never existed.  To me that will always be beyond tacky.  I still think there was a way to have the same content and not set it in that time frame.  

 

Next worst was "Glee Actually" mainly because they should have used it to advance stories and also because I dislike the canon rewrite of Artie's role.

 

Next would be a "Very Glee Christmas" simply because Rachel's pushing Finn bugged me.  

 

My favorite was "Extraordinarily Merry Christmas."  I loved the cheesy B&W special especially Finn and Puck's homage to a Star Wars Christmas.  I also loved the humor in the Finn/Rachel subplot.  Rachel being offended about Barbra the pig (as if the pizza eating, turkey making girl was ever a strict vegan) and then embracing it wholeheartedly cracked me up.  Also the star scene, in retrospect, is one of the most bittersweet scenes of Glee's entire run.  

Edited December 25, 2014 by camussie

[jaytee1812]

My biggest pet peeve with the character.  I will never get over that she outed Santana twice  to a much wider audience than Finn did in that hall and yet they didn't even have the girl who overheard Finn say that she had heard it from Brittany but didn't believe it until she heard it from Finn too.  I will always maintain that while it was absolutely wrong for Finn to get the hero edit in "I Kissed a Girl" it was also wrong he got the villain edit in "Mash-off" given that Brittany had outed Santana twice already.  That goes back to RM and team treating each episode like it was a brand new slate - something they appear to be continuing this season.

 

I have to say the character I loathe the most is Brittany. If you actually look at her actions, she's vile, but she was always played as a sweet harmless little girl, who apparently had sex with most of the school. 

 

Brittany is the one who gives Sue the setlist in 'Sectionals' with no comeback, she cheats on Artie and then says it isn't cheating because 'the plumbing's different', then blamed Artie for their split, she not only outed Santana twice, she put a sex tape of them online, she accused Bieste of sexual assault, and was racist to Tina, Mike, Unique and Mercedes.

 

Also she talks like she's voiced by the director of a lesbian porn fantasy.

[ComfySweater]

All of that is why I bought that nobody believed a thing Brittany said enough to think her lesbian fantasies about Santana were true. They all got used to her talking about magical cat poop and that sort of thing. Brittany as an unreliable narrator works. Who would believe a thing she said? 

[caracas1914]

My biggest pet peeve with the character.  I will never get over that she outed Santana twice  to a much wider audience than Finn did in that hall and yet they didn't even have the girl who overheard Finn say that she had heard it from Brittany but didn't believe it until she heard it from Finn too.  I will always maintain that while it was absolutely wrong for Finn to get the hero edit in "I Kissed a Girl" it was also wrong he got the villain edit in "Mash-off" given that Brittany had outed Santana twice already.  That goes back to RM and team treating each episode like it was a brand new slate - something they appear to be continuing this season.

 

    

I mentioned this in the spoiler thread, but what irks me is that I don't think Finn's intention in that scene was to deliberately out Santana.

 

He was petty, mean spirited and hit below the belt because he wanted to hurt Santana in that hallway. and his barb hit home for being the truth about her.  However because Glee conveniently had some girl overhear and spill the beans, the fandom erupted with how Finn had intentionally outed Santana.

 

Now I agree trying to make Finn  the "hero" in "I kissed the girl" was reprehensible, but that was another issue.

[jaytee1812]

 

Now I agree trying to make Finn  the "hero" in "I kissed the girl" was reprehensible, but that was another issue.

 

I wish they'd had one of the girls (not Rachel) take the role Finn took in I Kissed A Girl. It actually would've work well for Tina/Quinn 

[SevenStars]

I have to say the character I loathe the most is Brittany. If you actually look at her actions, she's vile, but she was always played as a sweet harmless little girl, who apparently had sex with most of the school. 

 

Brittany is the one who gives Sue the setlist in 'Sectionals' with no comeback, she cheats on Artie and then says it isn't cheating because 'the plumbing's different', then blamed Artie for their split, she not only outed Santana twice, she put a sex tape of them online, she accused Bieste of sexual assault, and was racist to Tina, Mike, Unique and Mercedes.

 

Also she talks like she's voiced by the director of a lesbian porn fantasy.

 

I agree.  But she gets a pass from fans and characters because she say/does these things an innocent/naive tone. I hate that.

[jaytee1812]

I agree.  But she gets a pass from fans and characters because she say/does these things an innocent/naive tone. I hate that.

She's like someone's schoolgirl fantasy, especially with how sexually active she's suppose to be. It's disturbing.

[Glorfindel]

I wish they'd had one of the girls (not Rachel) take the role Finn took in I Kissed A Girl. It actually would've work well for Tina/Quinn 

Or one of the kids who was actually gay, like Kurt or even Blaine if need be. But instead they had Santana snark at their song for her, while she was so touched by Finn's.

[phoenixrising]

I ship Brittana, even though I see its flaws. It's mainly the chemistry between Naya and Heather, and that I tend to tune out on Brittany's more awful moments. I don't really blame brittany for the outing thing, since we're meant to believe she didn't understand that's what she was saying so I rolled with it. But I understand people who don't, and fanfiction tends to handle brittany way better (of course). Maybe I shouldnt, but when they're done well I love it so much.

I'm sure Finn's intention wasn't to out Santana, but still...in the hallway? That was infuriating.

My big problem with ikag was more what we should've gotten but didn't--the cut scene of santana coming out to the Cheerios, coming out to her parents, her talking with her girlfriend, and kurt being consistent about how outing people is wrong (like outing Karofsky is a huge no-no, but it's ok when it's santana?).

Also, Pezberry doing I kissed a girl (or them even doing it at all) was a huge no.