All Episodes Talk: Breadstix

[phoenixrising]

I feel like cleverer shows give the characters some of their own inner life, at least enough so you can kind of forget that their main function is to support. Glee is not usually very good at that.

[jaytee1812]

I feel like cleverer shows give the characters some of their own inner life, at least enough so you can kind of forget that their main function is to support. Glee is not usually very good at that.

I actually don't think glee was good at that for their main characters, even Rachel. I mean they did a little bit more than others, but outside her dads I have no idea about her family, what she did to relax, I've also no idea who she talk to day to day.

I'm actually watching The Big Bang Theory right now, and they're pretty good at it.

[caracas1914]

Practically all long running shows give their characters more personal life than Glee ever did. 

[Ceeg]

How can you really develop characters on a consistent basis when the showrunner busts into the writers' room and demands x plot happens in x episode. "Make it work!" Glee is not the kind of show where things happen organically, or characters can develop and grow. Glee is pretty much entirely plot-focused and will fit different characters to serve whatever plot needs they have, even if it contradicts canon and already established character traits.

[mercfan3]

So Blaine was written as a good guy who did something bad as a plot device, but the Jake and Tina storyline were about their character, so they're inherently bad people? That makes the double standard even worse.

Blaine's not been written any poorer than any other character, and it doesn't really hold up as a complaint when compared to Jake or Tina. Jake was only there to exist as a love interest and never has his own agency, Tina exists as a prop, first for Rachel, then Blaine, then Artie.

 

No, not because they were inherently bad people. Because the Vapor Rape and Jake storylines were supposed to be about the character. Like, their actions were meant to be characterizations. Jake is meant to be a player, Tina was meant to have a crush on Blaine. Blaine wasn't supposed to be a jackass. His character did what he did to move the plot forward, not to add anything to Blaine as a character. That's why he's never called on it.

[phoenixrising]

Well, if I remember correctly, Glee at the time the vaporape happened didn't even seem to understand how creepy that was (although they've generally handled consent wrong, long before that).

I think they only turned that into a joke to cover their own asses.

[jaytee1812]

No, not because they were inherently bad people. Because the Vapor Rape and Jake storylines were supposed to be about the character. Like, their actions were meant to be characterizations. Jake is meant to be a player, Tina was meant to have a crush on Blaine. Blaine wasn't supposed to be a jackass. His character did what he did to move the plot forward, not to add anything to Blaine as a character. That's why he's never called on it.

 

So Blaine is still a good guy, Jake is a player, Blaine gets sympathy, Jake gets shamed. It's still a double standard. 

 

Blaine has a crush he gets understanding, Tina has a crush gets repeatedly humiliated. 

 

Well, if I remember correctly, Glee at the time the vaporape happened didn't even seem to understand how creepy that was (although they've generally handled consent wrong, long before that).

I think they only turned that into a joke to cover their own asses.

 

I can think of a billion ways that could've been done better than having white men repeatedly humiliate a woman of colour. 

[truthaboutluv]

Well, if I remember correctly, Glee at the time the vaporape happened didn't even seem to understand how creepy that was (although they've generally handled consent wrong, long before that).

 

 

Yeah Ryan spewed some bullshit on twitter that it was really a storyline about lonliness and viewers were actually meant to empathize with Tina and see her as just very lonely and confused. And as I recall, when the whole thing initially happened, Blaine actually ended up apologizing to Tina, like he'd done something wrong to her. It was later, likely because of all the comments online, that the "vapor rape" became a thing. 

 

Much like the controversial drama with Finn and Kurt in Season 1. The episode was all about Finn being wrong and Finn needing to learn tolerance. It wasn't until Ryan and company were confronted with multiple comments from some viewers who thought Kurt was borderline creepy at points with Finn, that suddenly come Season 2, Finn is telling Kurt that he doesn't always accept when no means no. Because in true Glee fashion, there was no subtlety in the writing. It was always just zero to sixty with these people.

Edited April 3, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[AndySmith]

Of course Glee isn't always subtle and nuanced, when it came to sensitive issues, even when they were trying to make a point. Remember Sam and Artie high-fiving Ryder when he admitted he had been molested and the "You got serious game, boy!" type comments. Ugh. Possibly one of the most cringe worthy scenes on the show ever.

[jaytee1812]

I wouldn't say they destroyed Kitty. I still liked her in season 6.

They took her from someone with her own mind and own agenda to nothing more than Rachel Berry's personal cheerleader.

Of course Glee isn't always subtle and nuanced, when it came to sensitive issues, even when they were trying to make a point. Remember Sam and Artie high-fiving Ryder when he admitted he had been molested and the "You got serious game, boy!" type comments. Ugh. Possibly one of the most cringe worthy scenes on the show ever.

Every relationship Sam and Artie have creeps from out for this reason. If they don't think Ryder at eleven can say no then why should I think they'll listen to Kitty, Tina, Rachel or Mercedes?

[AndySmith]

Actually, I saw Kitty as maturing in season 6. She still had some bite but stepped up a bit as the veteran/leader of ND...thought the writers messed by insisting Spencer also step up for reason as well. YMMV, of course.

As for the Ryder thing...I wish they had Kitty speak up then and there about her own experience, and ask Artie if she had as much game as Ryder.

[jaytee1812]

Maturing in glee seems to equal every woman realising her hopes and dreams are never as important as Rachel Berry's, and they must do everything possible to help Rachel.

Much as I hate Sue I wish they'd kept Kitty out of glee and had her sabotaging it from outside.

[AndySmith]

I have to disagree with that. Again, that's how you saw her (and the rest of the women I guess?), but I liked Kitty's evolution. 

[jaytee1812]

In the end Marley and Unique are the only women who escaped that dreaded fate.

[tom87]

Yes that dreaded fate of being a friend to Rachel, oh the horror, the horror!!!!

[AndySmith]

I agree, they didn't get to evolve and mature into a better person. Granted, there wasn't room for their characters to go, but still (Unique should have had the transitioning story, though).

Edited April 4, 2015 by AndySmith

[jaytee1812]

I agree, they didn't get to evolve and mature into a better person. Granted, there wasn't room for their characters to go, but still (Unique should have had the transitioning story, though).

Exactly they were already good people. And Kitty doesn't end a good person, she end without a personality, it's not the same thing.

I have to laugh at your implication that only being friends with Rachel makes people evolve and mature on this show. If anything it's the exact opposite.

[AndySmith]

Again, I don't see that she didn't have a personality, but to each their own.

 

I never implied one way or the other that being friends with Rachel makes people evolve or mature. You were the one who brought that up, not me, so please stop projecting your own opinions onto others, please.

Edited April 4, 2015 by AndySmith

[tom87]

I think Kitty ended a good person who still had her bite,  we saw her take charge and lead the glee club, be a good friend to many and she made it to NY.

 

 

Yes all of them dropped out of school and dropped  touring and recording and acting all for Rachel.  Bye Brown, bye Yale, bye Beyonce tour.   The horror. 

Edited April 4, 2015 by tom87

[AndySmith]

You know people are shipping her and Roderick based on that scene?

[jaytee1812]

You know people are shipping her and Roderick based on that scene?

That's what they reduced her to, dating a talentless loser.

[AndySmith]

I said she was dating Roderick, not Spencer.

 

Also, last time I checked, fan shipping does not equal cannon.

Edited April 4, 2015 by AndySmith

[jaytee1812]

I said she was dating Roderick, not Spencer.

Exactly, talentless loser... Oh I forgot he has the voice of Otis Redding. Only if we're talking about Otis Redding's corpse.

[jaytee1812]

Yes all of them dropped out of school and dropped  touring and recording and acting all for Rachel.  Bye Brown, bye Yale, bye Beyonce tour.   The horror.

And if Rachel had want any of those things she would've got them, just like prom queen, a solo at nationals, and not having Santana in Funny Girl.

[AndySmith]

Yes all of them dropped out of school and dropped  touring and recording and acting all for Rachel.  Bye Brown, bye Yale, bye Beyonce tour.   The horror.

 

It is possible the few times they returned was to help out the Glee club itself, which meant a lot to pretty much all of them, as much as they may or may not have been doing it for Rachel.

[tom87]

And if Rachel had want any of those things she would've got them, just like prom queen, a solo at nationals, and not having Santana in Funny Girl.

 

Rachel never wanted Prom Queen and that did not keep the others from going after thier dreams. Frankly her singing a solo didn't keep  Tina for going after her dreams either. 

 

And sorry but Santana's dream was not to be Fanny and Rachel did not keep her from being Fanny in fact Rachel tried to compromise with Santana  to ensure Santana  did get to play fanny.  Santana choose on her own to quit and her quitting didn't kept he from her dream cause it was not her dream.  

 

Your assertion was ... "Maturing in glee seems to equal every woman realising her hopes and dreams are never as important as Rachel Berry's, and they must do everything possible to help Rachel."

 

No one implied that about their maturity and certainly no one was kept from going after their dreams due to Rachel.  You give Rachel a lot of power she never had.  

Edited April 4, 2015 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

Does Kitty have they worst taste in men on glee? Jake dates her so he won't get bullied, Puck dates her so she won't go after Jake, she's a victim of sexual assault who dates a man who thinks someone should enjoy being molested, then she ends up with a talentless loser who has no personality.

[tom87]

It is possible the few times they returned was to help out the Glee club itself, which meant a lot to pretty much all of them, as much as they may or may not have been doing it for Rachel.

yes and it didn't  interfered with their dreams which was the assertion.  They came back for glee club not the directors be it Finn, Shue or Rachel and Kurt.

[Cranberry]

Deleted a bunch of posts that were just two people sniping at each other. You guys know that's not on.

 

Also, it's probably time to let that Otis Redding thing go. If I'm not mistaken, that appeared in a press release before we ever saw the character; it's not like anyone on the actual show compared Roderick to Redding. In any case, once you've made a statement 10+ times, we all definitely get it. No need to say it again every time the character is mentioned.

[Falafel]

Just noticed that Glee was on Netflix, so I think I just wanted to see a specific performance or something, but I somehow got caught in a rabbit hole of going through the entire series. I didn't watch it all -- I fast-forwarded and if they did a song I like, I stopped, or if there was a scene that seemed interesting, I stopped. (So, I skipped a ton of it.)

When the show originally came out, I stopped watching somewhere in S2 or S3 because the storylines were stupid and the characters' personalities changed too much from episode to episode. Nothing had to make any sense at any point. Basically, I never thought the writing was very good and many of the plots were dumb. But when I got to S5, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed almost all the New York stuff. I guess maybe that's because I am an adult and not anywhere near high school-aged, but I found myself skipping all the high school stuff and only watching the New York stuff. All the stuff with Rachel, Santana, Blaine and Kurt was great. I was surprised that S5 was the lowest rated season -- I guess it was too different from the rest of the show and that's why I liked it? (Or maybe after Cory died, the show just became too different.)

But if there was a show about young adults trying to make it in New York sprinkled in with some dancing and singing, I'd be down for it. As long as it didn't feature a couple with zero chemistry like Sam and Mercedes. (WTF was that?)

[marymon]

4 hours ago, Falafel said:

Just noticed that Glee was on Netflix, so I think I just wanted to see a specific performance or something, but I somehow got caught in a rabbit hole of going through the entire series. I didn't watch it all -- I fast-forwarded and if they did a song I like, I stopped, or if there was a scene that seemed interesting, I stopped. (So, I skipped a ton of it.)

When the show originally came out, I stopped watching somewhere in S2 or S3 because the storylines were stupid and the characters' personalities changed too much from episode to episode. Nothing had to make any sense at any point. Basically, I never thought the writing was very good and many of the plots were dumb. But when I got to S5, I was surprised at how much I enjoyed almost all the New York stuff. I guess maybe that's because I am an adult and not anywhere near high school-aged, but I found myself skipping all the high school stuff and only watching the New York stuff. All the stuff with Rachel, Santana, Blaine and Kurt was great. I was surprised that S5 was the lowest rated season -- I guess it was too different from the rest of the show and that's why I liked it? (Or maybe after Cory died, the show just became too different.)

But if there was a show about young adults trying to make it in New York sprinkled in with some dancing and singing, I'd be down for it. As long as it didn't feature a couple with zero chemistry like Sam and Mercedes. (WTF was that?)

I liked season 5 way more than season 4.  Season 4 is more lowest rated year.   

[shantown]

I get that they couldn't make a clean, full break to being a NYC-based show right away. It would have been too different/jarring for the GA after being a show about high school show choirs in Ohio to being about young adults in college in New York who sing. I think in hindsight I wouldn't have minded S4 as much if it had been more of a transition year. Start at the beginning of the season being more Lima-heavy with some shots over to NYC. Slowly move characters and plots to be more NYC heavy. By the end of the season (for the start of S5) it could have been all New York. There was plenty of story for NY and it provided some much needed new life in the show.

(Why do I even let myself still be bothered by how poorly the show was managed, even years later?!)

[marymon]

10 hours ago, shantown said:

I get that they couldn't make a clean, full break to being a NYC-based show right away. It would have been too different/jarring for the GA after being a show about high school show choirs in Ohio to being about young adults in college in New York who sing. I think in hindsight I wouldn't have minded S4 as much if it had been more of a transition year. Start at the beginning of the season being more Lima-heavy with some shots over to NYC. Slowly move characters and plots to be more NYC heavy. By the end of the season (for the start of S5) it could have been all New York. There was plenty of story for NY and it provided some much needed new life in the show.

(Why do I even let myself still be bothered by how poorly the show was managed, even years later?!)

That is pretty much what they did though.  Mostly Lima moved Rachel, more Lima moved Kurt then neglect NY for   several episodes for the most part  then more Lima before finally moving Santana and by then the new kids mostly bored and them made Lima to much Blaine and Sam.

[caracas1914]

On 12/4/2016 at 9:39 PM, marymon said:

That is pretty much what they did though.  

The previous poster stated they should have made S4 a transition year so that by YE it would have been all

NY.    That is precisely what didn't happen.    Ryan kept the Lima narrative the primary SL until FOX forced him to switch In the 14th episode of S5.  BY then it was too late and and the ratings had dropped irretrievably.

[marymon]

4 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

The previous poster stated they should have made S4 a transition year so that by YE it would have been all

NY.    That is precisely what didn't happen.    Ryan kept the Lima narrative the primary SL until FOX forced him to switch In the 14th episode of S5.  BY then it was too late and and the ratings had dropped irretrievably.

It still was a transition year  just took longer then it should.   The poster said in hindsight they should have been more Lima-heavy with some shots over to NYC. Slowly move characters and plots to be more NYC heavy.  And I said they did that becasue   Season 4 was  Lima heavy and they did slowly move more cast to NY.  

I think their problem was they made it too Lima heavy with the extended Senior year. 

[shantown]

Sorry for the confusion - what I definitely meant was to have it wrapped up in Lima by the end of S4. I think in the top 5 of mistakes the show made was making S4 and S5 all one school year and dragging out all the smaller parts that weren't working.

[caracas1914]

10 hours ago, shantown said:

Sorry for the confusion - what I definitely meant was to have it wrapped up in Lima by the end of S4. I think in the top 5 of mistakes the show made was making S4 and S5 all one school year and dragging out all the smaller parts that weren't working.

No worries, I thought your post was very  clear.

I quote you directly:

Quote

By the end of the season (for the start of S5) it could have been all New York.

Again, this is what precisely.DID.NOT.HAPPEN.

36 Fucking episodes stretched over 1 2/3 seasons  to transition to another narrative, (and even then more likely forced)  because Ryan Murphy's ego couldn't take that his Noob experiment had failed.

Edited December 10, 2016 by caracas1914

[marymon]

20 minutes ago, caracas1914 said:

No worries, I thought your post was very  clear.

I quote you directly:

Again, this is what precisely.DID.NOT.HAPPEN.

36 Fucking episodes stretched over 1 2/3 seasons  to transition to another narrative, (and even then more likely forced)  because Ryan Murphy's ego couldn't take that his Noob experiment had failed.

But the first part did happen they focused  more on Lima and slowly sent some to NY which is all I was saying.

[caracas1914]

What was rubbernecking amusing was how drastically and abruptly the show ended the Lima narrative in S5.  All those Noobie characters who had been given so much screen time were just dropped with no conclusion to their storylines.  Certainly nothing "transitional" about that.   It was all so stupid because if the Noobs HAD taken off, where in the world would Ryan have shoved his faves Rachel, Sam, and Blaine?  Who knows, back to Lima as Glee instructors?  : )

In hindsight FOX most likely in desperation ordered Ryan to dump the Noobies and Lima.  

The irony is that the "forced" NY narrative in S5 was burned to the ground to make Ryan "win", which resulted in a wasted and neglected season 6 fiasco buried on Friday Nights.

Because Of course in season 6 Ryan Murphy arbitrarily returned all the Original characters back to Lima/McKinley High, making the girls "honorary" cheerleaders and resulting in the Originals  looking  completely pathetic as adults running around a high school past their expiration point.   And to add insult to injury , Ryan introduced new Noobs, because , well, he could. 

Again, the joke was thinking that Ryan ever fully intended a transition to a NY narrative.

Edited December 10, 2016 by caracas1914

[Pink ranger]

Right now I think that pop culture ( very brief) history  remembers the "noobs experience"  as the Hollywood introduction  of the future leads of Everybody Wants Some and Supergirl though. In terms of creating future stars it was  a success not a failure. 

Edited December 10, 2016 by Pink ranger

[Autistic Queer]

On 10/12/2016 at 0:29 PM, Pink ranger said:

Right now I think that pop culture ( very brief) history  remembers the "noobs experience"  as the Hollywood introduction  of the future leads of Everybody Wants Some and Supergirl though. In terms of creating future stars it was  a success not a failure. 

I remember it as the dry run for Supergirl allegedly having producers end her on screen relationship with a black man and replace him with her off screen white boyfriend. Or is that blind item not true. Seems a weird coincidence either way. 

[caracas1914]

There are a lot of stars that as unknowns  were in series/projects that were quickly canceled or perceived as "failures". I think of such people as Sandra Bullock, Brad Pitt etc. who were in series that never took off.  George Clooney even was in short lived series ironically called E/R (years before the ER) back in the day.   The Noobs used Glee as a steppping stone, good for them, it doesn't mean necessarily they were a "success" within the context of Glee iteslf, as they couldn't halt the downward slide in ratings, audience apathy/antipathy to the point (apparently) that FOX had TPTB replace them quite abruptly on the show.  

[Autistic Queer]

You should read the blind items, allegedly they were fired after some of the originals demanded it. Doesn't take a genius to figure out who was threatened by younger, more handsome and more talented men coming through. Probably explains why no-one but Ryan Murphy has hired them since. 

Melissa was probably let go to do Supergirl, I mean if they were changing storylines for her she must've been well liked. 

[Florinaldo]

5 hours ago, Autistic Queer said:

Melissa was probably let go to do Supergirl, I mean if they were changing storylines for her she must've been well liked. 

I m not sure if they let her out of her contract specifically for that superhero show. Wasn't the mid-season switch-over to NYC already in the plans anyway? One thing I am certain of is that most of the Glee alumni must have put their experience on the show high on their résumé and placed it prominently in their demo reel, which must have helped them getting other roles or work. It's the sort of prominent work experience you do not want casting directors to miss. Which must have worked for a number of them as I indicate below.

 

5 hours ago, Autistic Queer said:

Doesn't take a genius to figure out who was threatened by younger, more handsome and more talented men coming through. Probably explains why no-one but Ryan Murphy has hired them since. 

I do not think this is true, either in the case of the S1 original cast (the Old Ones as it were) or of additions that were made to the cast over subsequent years. Doing a quick search on a sample of them, one can see that they have appeared in movies or stage productions, done concerts and other musical performances, or have branched out into production or podcasting for example; moreover, RM is not involved in most of their TV work (When We Rise, Quantico, Supergirl, Shadowhunters, Julie's Greenroom, Devious Maids, and there may be other examples which do not come to mind).  Since RM is such an active force in the industry at the moment, with several shows in production or being planned, it is no surprise some Glee alumni will eventually come to work with him again as a few already have. But I would say that the bulk of their post-Glee activity overall does not involve RM.

Some have taken a break from acting, because of individual choices or circumstances: CC for example appears to enjoy immensely the trappings of the life of a best-selling author as opposed to the grind of a weekly TV show, although he is involved in the development of an adaptation of his book series.

5 hours ago, Autistic Queer said:

You should read the blind items, allegedly they were fired after some of the originals demanded it.

There were a lot of crazy or absurd blind items about Glee, as there are all the time in this business; I would not credit them with much credibility, although once in a while they may hit close to the truth if only by chance and because of the sheer number of them., but who knows which ones do or don't.

[Autistic Queer]

Who from the original cast of Glee was in Quantico or Supergirl, I dropped both after season one so may have missed them. I don't remember anyone from Glee in Shadowhunters. 

I almost forgot McHale was in When We Rise, but I watch it again today. He literally flirts, gets laid, gets sick, dies. 

 

EDIT: I just remembered Harry Shum jr was in Glee. I doubt he was worried about more talented or better looking men because on Glee there was no such thing. I think I've watched him in so much since then I kind of forgot about him being in Glee. Also he's so different in every role he's not the type of actor that you think of other roles while watching him. 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Autistic Queer

[truthaboutluv]

1 minute ago, Autistic Queer said:

I don't remember anyone from Glee in Shadowhunters. 

That's funny since he's part of one of the show's most popular pairings, i.e. Harry Shum is in Shadowhunters. 

[Autistic Queer]

2 minutes ago, truthaboutluv said:

That's funny since he's part of one of the show's most popular pairings, i.e. Harry Shum is in Shadowhunters. 

See edit. I adore Magnus Bane, he never makes me think of Mike Chang any more than he makes me think of Paul Wong or Wei Fang. 

[Florinaldo]

3 minutes ago, Autistic Queer said:

Who from the original cast of Glee was in Quantico or Supergirl

As my post made it clear, I was talking about the cast overall from all of the seasons. In Quantico it is Jacob Artist.

 

6 minutes ago, Autistic Queer said:

I almost forgot McHale was in When We Rise, but I watch it again today. He literally flirts, gets laid, gets sick, dies. 

It still makes it a non-RM related acting job.

[fakeempress]

Quote

CC for example appears to enjoy immensely the trappings of the life of a best-selling author as opposed to the grind of a weekly TV show, although he is involved in the development of an adaptation of his book series.

He said he enjoyed doing his own project and working from home for a change - as do many self-employed people who aren't best selling authors. His work on the potential movie goes beyond "involvement", just as it did for Blake Jenner when he worked to get his own movie made or any other Glee person doing their own projects. 

Otherwise, it's no secret the Glee workload wasn't your typical grind. 

[marymon]

Blind items are complete BS.    The noobs were  let go  1. because the end was near and no one cared about them. 2. They wanted Rachel and Kurt to build the glee club up from  nothing.  The wanted to end at McKinley and have some full circle moment.  3.  It was cheaper to get rid of them.