Original Flavor Season Talk: Dinner at Rodbell's

[readster]

7 hours ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

Watched the episode where Roseanne works her last shift at Rodbell's. Part of me hated how they closed the diner as those episodes are arguably the best. 

 

But then I think about how the show stayed fresh by switching up Roseanne's jobs and other parts like the various neighbours over the years. It wasn't the exact same storylines and supporting cast for the entire 9 years.

I would say that when they opened The Lunchbox that was the beginning of the end of the show. They had security for the last 4 seasons. Would have been better if they kept switching it up.

Now that I'm thinking about it, part of what makes Roseanne great is the focus on her worklife. It is almost equal to her home life like it is in real life.

So sick of other sitcoms where the parents have successful careers in advertising and seem to be home 23 hours of the day.

Marketing seemed to be big business in 80s sitcoms lol.

The problem with the Lunchbox was we had just had them fail with the bike shop barely 2 years before and Jackie thought now was the time to get their own business again? Especially with getting that money from Bev and Dan just got the city job. Sorry, that would have been me, money in the bank, get back on your feet and then go from there. Despite they tried to to show running your own business wasn't easy, after they brought Leon on back to eventually take over as the business partner from Bev. That in my opinion spelled the start of the end of the show. 

[Mmmfloorpie]

There were some good storylines with the Lunchbox but then you can tell they ran out of ideas because less and less time was spent there.

The only time you see it in season 9 is when they serve Christmas dinner right at the very end of the episode.

[Mmmfloorpie]

Best episode ever on. When Arnie comes back and finds out Nancy is a lesbian.

 

Ty: "I've got a straight"

Arnie: "Is that a crack about my ex wife!?"

Poker guy: "All I've got is a pair of ladies."

Arnie: "That's it!"

[DkNNy79]

On ‎7‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 6:43 PM, readster said:

The problem with the Lunchbox was we had just had them fail with the bike shop barely 2 years before and Jackie thought now was the time to get their own business again? Especially with getting that money from Bev and Dan just got the city job. Sorry, that would have been me, money in the bank, get back on your feet and then go from there. Despite they tried to to show running your own business wasn't easy, after they brought Leon on back to eventually take over as the business partner from Bev. That in my opinion spelled the start of the end of the show. 

I agree with you, but the Connor's were not money in the bank people.  Whenever they get any sort of money, they spend it.

[qtpye]

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 6:43 PM, readster said:

The problem with the Lunchbox was we had just had them fail with the bike shop barely 2 years before and Jackie thought now was the time to get their own business again? Especially with getting that money from Bev and Dan just got the city job. Sorry, that would have been me, money in the bank, get back on your feet and then go from there. Despite they tried to to show running your own business wasn't easy, after they brought Leon on back to eventually take over as the business partner from Bev. That in my opinion spelled the start of the end of the show. 

 

1 hour ago, DkNNy79 said:

I agree with you, but the Connor's were not money in the bank people.  Whenever they get any sort of money, they spend it.

Yes, the Connors were horrible with money.  However, it still was very annoying.  Over the years we saw the Connors have no head for business and Jackie being a giant flake about everything career wise, except for being a cop, where an injury took her out.

It was also annoying that they were financed by the mother they both hated. It kind of made them seem privileged and ungrateful.

[Mmmfloorpie]

I don't think they really hated Bev until late season 5.

Also, Dan owned his own drywall company and was very successful at that. I never understood why in season 4 Dan went back to drywalling and was making good money at that but then through season 5 and part of 6 it seems like he never works.

[readster]

1 hour ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

I don't think they really hated Bev until late season 5.

Also, Dan owned his own drywall company and was very successful at that. I never understood why in season 4 Dan went back to drywalling and was making good money at that but then through season 5 and part of 6 it seems like he never works.

Yeah, I didn't get that either. I mean from how the bike shop worked was Ziggy left the $30K, Dan decided to just get rid of his drywall for the bike shop. Season 2 where we first met Roseanne's parents (before evil father and damn that mother of ours started happening) Bev even said: "Dan isn't working is he?" Yes, he was, but they acted like Dan wasn't working at all. It was like in season 5 and 6 it was that Dan was horrible at finding work and their bills were piling up and up to the point they lights were shut off on them. Never made sense. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

On 7/21/2017 at 3:26 PM, Mmmfloorpie said:

I don't think they really hated Bev until late season 5.

They probably loved her from a distance, but once Bev moved to Lanford, they had to deal with her every day. Before they only had to deal with her for a few days at a time. Now they had to see her almost daily and work with her. 

I watched a bit of the TV Land marathon and after a few episodes, I have to say that David is in my top 3 of most annoying characters. After the stunt he pulled ratting on Darlene about the drugs after they broke up, he should have been kicked out of that house.  I can't believe Roseanne sided with that drippy twerp over her own daughter. 

[Bastet]

29 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

They probably loved her from a distance, but once Bev moved to Lanford, they had to deal with her every day. Before they only had to deal with her for a few days at a time. Now they had to see her almost daily and work with her. 

Yep, and that's when we see the shift in their relationship.  Bev's hypercritical, passive-aggressive routine on a daily basis naturally yielded more intense responses from Roseanne and Jackie than we'd seen from them during the years when Bev merely called and visited.  Bev's first reaction to nearly everything either of them do is negative, so that their frustration often crosses the line into outright meanness after she moves to Lanford doesn't surprise me.

[Mmmfloorpie]

On 7/22/2017 at 8:50 PM, Bastet said:

Yep, and that's when we see the shift in their relationship.  Bev's hypercritical, passive-aggressive routine on a daily basis naturally yielded more intense responses from Roseanne and Jackie than we'd seen from them during the years when Bev merely called and visited.  Bev's first reaction to nearly everything either of them do is negative, so that their frustration often crosses the line into outright meanness after she moves to Lanford doesn't surprise me.

There were some really cringe worthy moments though from season 6 on.

The episode where she gets arrested for DUI. It's hard to watch because of how mean they are to her.

It was better in the early seaons where Bev would bug them but they would get upset behind her back and not to her face. Like most people are with their mothers.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

The episode where she gets arrested for DUI. It's hard to watch because of how mean they are to her.

Considering that fact that she stood by and did nothing when their father beat the shit out of them, they weren't mean enough IMO.

[Bastet]

I don't find their mean behavior any worse than Bev's passive-agressive behavior (in which she could teach a master class) and her automatic negative reaction to every.freaking.thing they do, so I've never bought into the "poor Bev, so mistreated by her daughters" theory.  She is no innocent victim in their sparring, which is very much a three-way thing.  Their behavior perhaps draws more attention because it's louder and more obvious than Bev's, but she's an equal combatant even though her strategy is different.

I like the dynamic between the three, because it's so layered, and really like that it changes when she's in their lives on a near-daily basis.  And there's some heartbreaking stuff showing the lasting scars from their childhood, especially after Andy is born and Bev is so good with him, leaving Jackie to think anew - despite all her progress in therapy - that there was something wrong with her that left Bev incapable of loving her the right way.  I like the subtle things, too, especially those that fit with the difference between Roseanne's relationship with Bev and Jackie's with Bev, like how Roseanne is prone to giving Bev glancing touches; it's sweet.

[Dee]

One of my favorite moments of Bev and Roseanne's relationship is when Roseanne realizes where her food issues stem from.

The look on her face as she considers her bowl of ice cream after Bev leaves for the supermarket is heartbreaking. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Dee

[StaceyNotStacie]

The episode where Bev wanted to babysit Andy and Jackie's issues with it was well done. I wish they would have given us more information in regards to Bev's childhood. I remember the episode in the last season where she asked Mary who her father was, but did they establish whether Mary had actually raised Bev? She seemed a bit like someone who couldn't stay in one place very long, so it wouldn't have surprised me if her grandparents had taken care of her most of the time. 

[readster]

9 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

The episode where Bev wanted to babysit Andy and Jackie's issues with it was well done. I wish they would have given us more information in regards to Bev's childhood. I remember the episode in the last season where she asked Mary who her father was, but did they establish whether Mary had actually raised Bev? She seemed a bit like someone who couldn't stay in one place very long, so it wouldn't have surprised me if her grandparents had taken care of her most of the time. 

I agree, despite everything we want to think, people become who they were based on their raising or environment. Believe it or not, I would have also liked a talk about Roseanne and Jackie's father where they could have said: "Your father was raised the same way, he got out of line, he got hit." Bev it could have been she was raised by very old world views and why she was the way she was. You know: Stand by your man no matter what, your place is in the home. Save your money. That was another thing, Bev had the same attitude towards Mary just like Roseanne and Jackie did towards Bev. Which was odd, because with Mary, she just told it how it was and was more of a best bud than parent. 

[Mmmfloorpie]

I guess I just liked the show more seasons 1-4. Starting in 5 Roseanne became really really angry and hostile and mean as the seasons progressed. I still like the later episodes but sometimes I feel her character went way over the edge.

I always thought the change had something to do with her personal life.

[AgentRXS]

Quote

I guess I just liked the show more seasons 1-4. Starting in 5 Roseanne became really really angry and hostile and mean as the seasons progressed. I still like the later episodes but sometimes I feel her character went way over the edge.

I always thought the change had something to do with her personal life.

Of course it did. Newfound fame and fortune tends to go to a lot of people's heads. Add that on to having to deal with a cokehead, philandering husband, the press constantly calling you fat and ugly, and fighting with directors/producers to keep the vision you have for the show that bares your name, and living in an area where other celebs make it clear you are an "outsider" and don't belong...... and I could see how all that anger, hurt, frustration  would seep through into a show. Roseanne Barr is a stand up comedian more than she is an actress.  I don't think she was capable of separating her personality from Roseanne Conner. So if she was in a mood to be a hell-on-wheels bitch, Roseanne Conner was going to be too.

I'm just glad the plastic surgery worked well for her in the long-run. With the amount of vile shit spewed about her appearance, she could have easily gone the MJ route.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

"Your father was raised the same way, he got out of line, he got hit.

Yeah, I don't buy it. My husband was regularly beaten by his father. He never once raised a hand to our son. He was not going to let his child experience that kind of violence and massive violation of trust.

[Mmmfloorpie]

57 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Of course it did. Newfound fame and fortune tends to go to a lot of people's heads. Add that on to having to deal with a cokehead, philandering husband, the press constantly calling you fat and ugly, and fighting with directors/producers to keep the vision you have for the show that bares your name, and living in an area where other celebs make it clear you are an "outsider" and don't belong...... and I could see how all that anger, hurt, frustration  would seep through into a show. Roseanne Barr is a stand up comedian more than she is an actress.  I don't think she was capable of separating her personality from Roseanne Conner. So if she was in a mood to be a hell-on-wheels bitch, Roseanne Conner was going to be too.

I'm just glad the plastic surgery worked well for her in the long-run. With the amount of vile shit spewed about her appearance, she could have easily gone the MJ route.

I've had struggles with my weight all my life so don't take this as an attack on her but she really went up and down during the run of the show. 

Was large in 1-2, lost a TON of weight in season 3, started gaining it back in 4-5, got pretty large again in 6 then huge when she had the baby in 8. Then lost a lot in 9.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Mmmfloorpie

[AgentRXS]

Quote

I've had struggles with my weight all my life so don't take this as an attack on her but she really went up and down during the run of the show. 

Was large in 1-2, lost a TON of weight in season 3, started gaining it back in 4-5, got pretty large again in 6 then huge when she had the baby in 8. Then lost a lot in 9.

Yeah, I think she lost the weight due to the criticism she was getting (or had surgery to lose it, rather)  but gained it back when she was dealing with the Tom Arnold marriage and divorce. And of course, the pregnancy caused her to gain even more weight. She's consistently looked great since the show ended, IMO.

[Bastet]

On 7/25/2017 at 7:26 AM, Mmmfloorpie said:

I guess I just liked the show more seasons 1-4.

I like the show all the way through (yes, even season nine; it's my least favorite, but I do like it), but season four is my hands-down favorite.  My season ranking is probably four, two, three, one, five, six, seven, eight, nine.  One through five or six, I will almost always stop on in syndication, even though I have the complete series on DVD.  One through four I practically have memorized.  But I like the whole thing; it's one of the few long-running (6+ seasons) series I feel that way about (Seinfeld, Cagney & Lacey, and Murphy Brown are the others springing to mind, but there may be a couple more) -- usually I drift away from a series around season six, if not in real time then definitely upon re-watching.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Bastet

[readster]

21 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Yeah, I don't buy it. My husband was regularly beaten by his father. He never once raised a hand to our son. He was not going to let his child experience that kind of violence and massive violation of trust.

True, some people end up that way. My wife's father constantly criticized her and her siblings, but none of them do that at all. My dad was in and out of my life, so I tend to spend more time with my own kids. Then you get some people who go the opposite like your husband, where their home life was tough, but said: "I'm not going to be a parent like that." Some however go too far the other way we have two neighbors and their parents were so strict to them that they let their kids get away with almost everything.  

[Mmmfloorpie]

13 hours ago, Bastet said:

I like the show all the way through (yes, even season nine; it's my least favorite, but I do like it), but season four is my hands-down favorite.  My season ranking is probably four, two, three, one, five, six, seven, eight,  nine.  One through five or six, I will almost always stop on in syndication, even though I have the complete series on DVD.  One through four I practically have memorized.  But I like the whole thing; it's one of the few long-running (6+ seasons) series I feel that way about (Seinfeld, Cagney & Lacey, and Murphy Brown are the others springing to mind, but there may be a couple more).

I've tried to watch Murphy Brown but find it too dated since it was very topical and that's strange for me since I usually dig everything 80s.

I was too young to watch it when it was originally on so a lot of the jokes go over my head.

Family guy had a good parody... "Blah blah blah, Dan Quayle. Blah blah blah, John Sonunu" or something to that effect.

[readster]

I was just watching the Fisher trilogy (X-mas episode to the beating episodes). It was mentioned a while ago, but yeah the signs for Fisher's abuse were shown even before Jackie said  in the X-mas episode that he told her to stop seeing the shrink. He was very focused about his job, Jackie worrying more about her own job and not his. Signs of either a controller or abuser trying to remove her support system and that they are right and you should support them. Even when Roseanne was telling Jackie when she was getting her things from their apartment, how Fisher was like their father and want life to repeat with them having kids and Fisher hitting and blaming them for things like their dad did. It was very well written and Laurie Metcalf sold those scenes. I just felt sad for Dan because having an abuser filing assault and battery is still common when others know the person who is the real attacker has the law on their side. However, if it would have been my sister or sister in law I would have gone kicked his ass too.  

[peacheslatour]

Quote

However, if it would have been my sister or sister in law I would have gone kicked his ass too.

My favorite line from that episode "I hope the next brother in law kills you".

[Chaos Theory]

I'be been watching Night Court and find it funnier then I remember it being.  Like with Roseanne the later seasons were not as good but they were still watchable and funny in their own way.  

[UYI]

Anyone else a fan of Brad Jones and/or his character, the Cinema Snob? He's always been a fan of Roseanne, and he just did a re watch of the final season. Here are his thoughts on each episode.

[TheGreenKnight]

The worst part (not as in a bad episode way, just in a hard-to-watch-knowing-about-the-abuse way) is the episode with DJ acting like a maniac on his hockey team where Jackie broke up with Fisher and then Roseanne guilts her, makes her feel stupid about breaking up with him, and then pushes them back together.

[Bastet]

In a series teeming with contenders for this title, the Jackie/Fisher storyline is one of the most realistic on television.  The groundwork is laid as far back as her relationship with Gary, as we can see from that how vulnerable Jackie would be to an abuser.  There were some of the same red flags in that relationship, except Gary was not an abuser and thus didn't exploit - and, in fact, in some cases encouraged her away from - those behaviors.  And then in the relationship with Fisher, there are a few warning signs that stand out in real time, and a whole lot more than only become noticeable (to the characters, and thus the audience) in hindsight.

(The two-episode arc in which the abuse is revealed and responded to is also - again, in a series that is an expert at such a thing - one of TV's best examples of weaving humor into a serious situation.)

I think there is such value in the way it played out, gradually and subtly, something that could make members of the audience get to the culmination of it, look back, and think, "Wait a minute, that's similar to what's happening with me/so-and-so; is that wrong?" rather than a Very Special Episode that is so anvillicious it doesn't trigger that new awareness because it's so over-the-top obvious ("Well, of course that's abuse").  I wonder what kind of discussion it would have generated had it premiered in the social media age. 

Re. Roseanne liking him and encouraging the relationship, I love every moment of the "I consider myself a pretty good judge of people - which is why I don't like none of 'em - but you flew right under my radar" conversation, including her tone of voice when she says, as much to herself as to Fisher, that she pushed Jackie to get back together with him.  That guilt from a loved one who missed the signs is just one more realistic layer to it all.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Bastet

[Mmmfloorpie]

12 hours ago, Bastet said:

In a series teeming with contenders for this title, the Jackie/Fisher storyline is one of the most realistic on television.  The groundwork is laid as far back as her relationship with Gary, as we can see from that how vulnerable Jackie would be to an abuser.  There were some of the same red flags in that relationship, except Gary was not an abuser and thus didn't exploit - and, in fact, in some cases encouraged her away from - those behaviors.  And then in the relationship with Fisher, there are a few warning signs that stand out in real time, and a whole lot more than only become noticeable (to the characters, and thus the audience) in hindsight.

(The two-episode arc in which the abuse is revealed and responded to is also - again, in a series that is an expert at such a thing - one of TV's best examples of weaving humor into a serious situation.)

I think there is such value in the way it played out, gradually and subtly, something that could make members of the audience get to the culmination of it, look back, and think, "Wait a minute, that's similar to what's happening with me/so-and-so; is that wrong?" rather than a Very Special Episode that is so anvillicious it doesn't trigger that new awareness because it's so over-the-top obvious ("Well, of course that's abuse").  I wonder what kind of discussion it would have generated had it premiered in the social media age. 

Re. Roseanne liking him and encouraging the relationship, I love every moment of the "I consider myself a pretty good judge of people - which is why I don't like none of 'em - but you flew right under my radar" conversation, including her tone of voice when she says, as much to herself as to Fisher, that she pushed Jackie to get back together with him.  That guilt from a loved one who missed the signs is just one more realistic layer to it all.

I love the 2 episode arc but I think the abuse was a lot more "spur of the moment" than some here suggest. I rewatched that season recently and was shocked at how little Fisher actually appeared. Including the 2 episode arc, I think he only appeared in 4 or 5 episodes total. There's his introduction episode, the one with DJs hockey and then the 2 where he beats her up. Feel free to correct me if there were more.

The only other episode where I got the impression there might be something wrong in their relationship (aside from the 2 parter) was the Christmas one. Jackie sounds really sullen when having to explain to Roseanne that she has to spend it with him and there is a little back and forth between them. The hockey episode was just a little spat that people in a new relationship sometime have. Not indicative of anything bad I thought. 

Now, about the 2 parter. It's in the first episode where Fisher has his outburst at the Poker game. To me this is really the first major sign of a problem and clearly it was written that way at the beginning to help the audience accept what happens at the end with the abuse. Watching the season again I am remimded of my impression when I originally watched it for the very first time. You think Fisher is the perfect guy then all of a sudden, WHAMO he's a spouse abuser.

There was a lack of signs in previous episodes which is surprising seeing how deliberative the Fisher arc appears to have been to me. I don't think they brought on Fisher and then later decided to make him an abuser, they brought him on knowing that was how the character was going to end up. I say that because he was in so few episodes and it's like they didn't want people to get too comfy with his character and then have him turn into this monster that gets written off the show.

The opposite could be said for Gary. In season 2 it seemed like they were headed for marriage, hoe hum. But season 3 comes and so many parts of the show were just shuffled up. In just a couple lines of dialogue we're told that Roseanne quit the beauty parlour (despite having previously said she loved that job) and got a job at Rodbell's. Then Jackie gets injured and quits the force and dumps Gary in the same episode. Clearly these were spur of the moment changes designed to take the show in a new direction. Not sure if this was the time of Matt William's departure and Tom Arnold's arrival as producer and that explains the change or what.

I think they could have made the pattern of abuse more visible in previous episodes but I personally found it very abrupt.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Mmmfloorpie

[StaceyNotStacie]

Laff TV and CMT have been showing these episodes over the last few days. It's interesting watching after reading all of these posts. I've found that I always notice something that I hadn't seen before even though I've seen these episodes at least 50 times, if not more. 

[Bastet]

5 hours ago, Mmmfloorpie said:

I think they could have made the pattern of abuse more visible in previous episodes but I personally found it very abrupt.

There's a lot of stuff.  It sticks very close to reality in that there are traits that may indicate abuse, or may not, because they can also exist in healthy relationships, so you don't see them for what they were until looking back.

I like first how the Jackie/Gary relationship helped set the stage for Fisher; Jackie in no way invited the abuse, but her proclivity toward subjugating her interests and desires - and agreeing to accelerated relationship trajectories - in favor of keeping a boyfriend happy did make her more vulnerable to someone like Fisher.  She doesn't think she's good enough for him as she is.  Once Gary realized what Jackie was doing, he encouraged her to voice her opinions and show him her true self, and never seemed to be intentionally controlling her in a malicious way.

Then I like how Jackie and Fisher meet - at a singles dance.  That fits nicely into the abuse arc in hindsight; not that all women who go to those functions are vulnerable or all men who go to them are predators, of course, but it is believable that a young, attractive man with a good career looking for women he can control would think a woman Jackie's age going to a function whose sole purpose is to find a date is someone he should chat up.  And, indeed, like with Gary, Jackie doesn't think she's good enough for him.

Pretty early on in the relationship, Jackie reveals she is no longer in therapy.  Roseanne asks Jackie what her therapist had to say about something, and Jackie reveals she's not seeing her anymore because "Fisher says I don't need it, he says I can run my own life." That's an early red flag; control and isolation in the guise of building her up -- give her just enough confidence to pull away from her usual support system.

We also learn early on that he monopolizes her time; there's a fair bit of commentary about this even in episodes where we don't see Fisher - Roseanne noting how Jackie keeps blowing her off in order to spend even more time with Fisher.  Jackie even ditches Roseanne (in terms of handling the Lunchbox and dealing with Bev) on Christmas.

And their relationship moves very quickly, which is classic abuser strategy.  And even before they move in together, he's overbearing - calling constantly, always sending her flowers, etc.  A charm offensive that's so much darker than that.

We see hints he keeps tabs on her, and he refuses to stop being in her life the first time she breaks up with him.

Like I said, very realistic -- abuse is gradual, and on a spectrum, and the abuser and the victim are both actively concealing it from loved ones, so there's a lot they don't know about to begin with, and then so much of what they do observe could have a benign meaning.  So when the abuse is revealed, things pop out all over the place in hindsight, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should have known what was going on from the beginning.

[Mmmfloorpie]

16 hours ago, Bastet said:

There's a lot of stuff.  It sticks very close to reality in that there are traits that may indicate abuse, or may not, because they can also exist in healthy relationships, so you don't see them for what they were until looking back.

I like first how the Jackie/Gary relationship helped set the stage for Fisher; Jackie in no way invited the abuse, but her proclivity toward subjugating her interests and desires - and agreeing to accelerated relationship trajectories - in favor of keeping a boyfriend happy did make her more vulnerable to someone like Fisher.  She doesn't think she's good enough for him as she is.  Once Gary realized what Jackie was doing, he encouraged her to voice her opinions and show him her true self, and never seemed to be intentionally controlling her in a malicious way.

Then I like how Jackie and Fisher meet - at a singles dance.  That fits nicely into the abuse arc in hindsight; not that all women who go to those functions are vulnerable or all men who go to them are predators, of course, but it is believable that a young, attractive man with a good career looking for women he can control would think a woman Jackie's age going to a function whose sole purpose is to find a date is someone he should chat up.  And, indeed, like with Gary, Jackie doesn't think she's good enough for him.

Pretty early on in the relationship, Jackie reveals she is no longer in therapy.  Roseanne asks Jackie what her therapist had to say about something, and Jackie reveals she's not seeing her anymore because "Fisher says I don't need it, he says I can run my own life." That's an early red flag; control and isolation in the guise of building her up -- give her just enough confidence to pull away from her usual support system.

We also learn early on that he monopolizes her time; there's a fair bit of commentary about this even in episodes where we don't see Fisher - Roseanne noting how Jackie keeps blowing her off in order to spend even more time with Fisher.  Jackie even ditches Roseanne (in terms of handling the Lunchbox and dealing with Bev) on Christmas.

And their relationship moves very quickly, which is classic abuser strategy.  And even before they move in together, he's overbearing - calling constantly, always sending her flowers, etc.  A charm offensive that's so much darker than that.

We see hints he keeps tabs on her, and he refuses to stop being in her life the first time she breaks up with him.

Like I said, very realistic -- abuse is gradual, and on a spectrum, and the abuser and the victim are both actively concealing it from loved ones, so there's a lot they don't know about to begin with, and then so much of what they do observe could have a benign meaning.  So when the abuse is revealed, things pop out all over the place in hindsight, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should have known what was going on from the beginning.

Definately agree on the Christmas episode and I mentioned it in my post. 

But, someone mentioned earlier that they like the line Roseanne said about Fisher flying right under her radar. Roseanne didn't even see what was going on. 

Fisher losing his temper at the poker game in Part 1 was the first sign that he had an anger problem. Sitcoms aren't written to be subtle, they have to be explicit because they only have 22 minutes to tell their story. 

Yes you can go back and read into things but my point is that I believe they wrote it to be a shock. They didn't provide a trail of clues that showed it coming.

Roseanne's line says it all.

[readster]

The "That's our Rosey" episode which is a spoof of Leave it Beaver was on and it's still hilarious even today. I did love how they got Michael Fishman's brother to play his younger as Stucky since they couldn't use Jerry since he was baby. I loved him popping up with a: "Uh oh! Someone is in trouble." But how the show mocked the old 50-60s TV styles was great, even Glenn Quinn's: "Gee golly Becks." However, the commercials were perfect as you can tell they were ad libbing a lot of them. Especially the final one with Dr. Clean because Roseanne kept drinking the bottle and the actors playing Dr. Clean couldn't respond and then just went: "Exactly!" and disappears. Then you see her still drinking the bottle when they came back from commercial. I still love Dan constantly talking about the "darn Anderson Account" which was true. If you look at Leave it to Beaver, there was some darn account that was always causing problems. 

[Bastet]

That's one of my favorite episodes from season eight.  I love its take on all the clichés of '50s sitcoms -- the the anti-Communist hysteria, the cute kid with a tag line, the parade of gender stereotypes, "that darn Anderson account," etc.  And the advertisements, especially.  It's really well done.

[readster]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

That's one of my favorite episodes from season eight.  I love its take on all the clichés of '50s sitcoms -- the the anti-Communist hysteria, the cute kid with a tag line, the parade of gender stereotypes, "that darn Anderson account," etc.  And the advertisements, especially.  It's really well done.

I also love how it starts with Roseanne in a chair holding a tip cigarette going: "It has been lost for over 40 years... along with my mind!" I have to say that worked great with Jackie as the wacky next door neighbor which is really a front. I also don't want to sound like I am showing hatred for Sarah (I didn't like her on Roseanne opposed to Scrubs), but Lecy I believed pulled 50's Becky off perfectly. You could also tell the entire cast was having fun with the episode. Which if I remember correctly how they really wanted season 8, when it was believed to be the last season to be fun and try things they couldn't have done earlier. 

[Mmmfloorpie]

A lot of people on the IMDB board hated that episode but I loved it too.

[StaceyNotStacie]

Laff TV is showing the final season right now. I watched the fight episode and the first few where they won the lottery and forgot how much I disliked them (I usually skip them and start watching again when Darlene has the baby up to the finale). That fight was just brutal and they both hit below the belt, and then the camera showing the aftermath at the end of the episode with the coffee table and the busted tv.

The two scenes that get to me in that final season are the scene with the Dan reveal and the scene in the Christmas episode where they burn the mortgage papers. After seeing the scenes where they hit rock bottom financially, there was something about that scene that made me teary eyed. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

the scene in the Christmas episode where they burn the mortgage papers. After seeing the scenes where they hit rock bottom financially, there was something about that scene that made me teary eyed. 

That scene really gets me, too.  We saw not just their financial struggle in general, but how many times they had to put that house on the line with another mortgage.  (I love when Bonnie tells Roseanne Rodbell's is shutting down the diner ["and it's not like there's a lot out there for two career gals like us"] and Roseanne is silent for a beat and then says, "I've got, like, two mortgages on my house.")  So for that to finally be securely theirs is quite moving.  

[Mmmfloorpie]

20 hours ago, Bastet said:

That scene really gets me, too.  We saw not just their financial struggle in general, but how many times they had to put that house on the line with another mortgage.  (I love when Bonnie tells Roseanne Rodbell's is shutting down the diner ["and it's not like there's a lot out there for two career gals like us"] and Roseanne is silent for a beat and then says, "I've got, like, two mortgages on my house.")  So for that to finally be securely theirs is quite moving.  

Would have been more heart felt if they paid off the mortgage just with their hard work. Not because they won $100 million.

[Mmmfloorpie]

Anyone else bothered by the fact that Jackie was really antagonistic towards Fred and then completely reverses in the end credits of one episode?

[peacheslatour]

I don't know about the credits but I couldn't stand Fred (Fred, Fred, Fred). I loved Gary though.

[Mmmfloorpie]

3 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I don't know about the credits but I couldn't stand Fred (Fred, Fred, Fred). I loved Gary though.

Pretty sure. Fred drops the lawsuit and Roseanne yells at Jackie and then in the credits scene Jackie and Fred are sitting on her couch after having sex.

[peacheslatour]

Just now, Mmmfloorpie said:

Pretty sure. Fred drops the lawsuit and Roseanne yells at Jackie and then in the credits scene Jackie and Fred are sitting on her couch after having sex.

I believe you. I just don't look at the credits.

[ridethemaverick]

On 8/3/2017 at 4:30 PM, Bastet said:

There's a lot of stuff.  It sticks very close to reality in that there are traits that may indicate abuse, or may not, because they can also exist in healthy relationships, so you don't see them for what they were until looking back.

I like first how the Jackie/Gary relationship helped set the stage for Fisher; Jackie in no way invited the abuse, but her proclivity toward subjugating her interests and desires - and agreeing to accelerated relationship trajectories - in favor of keeping a boyfriend happy did make her more vulnerable to someone like Fisher.  She doesn't think she's good enough for him as she is.  Once Gary realized what Jackie was doing, he encouraged her to voice her opinions and show him her true self, and never seemed to be intentionally controlling her in a malicious way.

Then I like how Jackie and Fisher meet - at a singles dance.  That fits nicely into the abuse arc in hindsight; not that all women who go to those functions are vulnerable or all men who go to them are predators, of course, but it is believable that a young, attractive man with a good career looking for women he can control would think a woman Jackie's age going to a function whose sole purpose is to find a date is someone he should chat up.  And, indeed, like with Gary, Jackie doesn't think she's good enough for him.

Pretty early on in the relationship, Jackie reveals she is no longer in therapy.  Roseanne asks Jackie what her therapist had to say about something, and Jackie reveals she's not seeing her anymore because "Fisher says I don't need it, he says I can run my own life." That's an early red flag; control and isolation in the guise of building her up -- give her just enough confidence to pull away from her usual support system.

We also learn early on that he monopolizes her time; there's a fair bit of commentary about this even in episodes where we don't see Fisher - Roseanne noting how Jackie keeps blowing her off in order to spend even more time with Fisher.  Jackie even ditches Roseanne (in terms of handling the Lunchbox and dealing with Bev) on Christmas.

And their relationship moves very quickly, which is classic abuser strategy.  And even before they move in together, he's overbearing - calling constantly, always sending her flowers, etc.  A charm offensive that's so much darker than that.

We see hints he keeps tabs on her, and he refuses to stop being in her life the first time she breaks up with him.

Like I said, very realistic -- abuse is gradual, and on a spectrum, and the abuser and the victim are both actively concealing it from loved ones, so there's a lot they don't know about to begin with, and then so much of what they do observe could have a benign meaning.  So when the abuse is revealed, things pop out all over the place in hindsight, but that doesn't necessarily mean they should have known what was going on from the beginning.

Great post.

To add: there was also an episode or two where Jackie came into the scene holding her jacket closed very tightly in a defensive/protective stance. It's certainly subtle but it's not something she did before or after the Fisher episodes.

On 8/9/2017 at 0:20 PM, Stacey1014 said:

Laff TV is showing the final season right now. I watched the fight episode and the first few where they won the lottery and forgot how much I disliked them (I usually skip them and start watching again when Darlene has the baby up to the finale). That fight was just brutal and they both hit below the belt, and then the camera showing the aftermath at the end of the episode with the coffee table and the busted tv.

The two scenes that get to me in that final season are the scene with the Dan reveal and the scene in the Christmas episode where they burn the mortgage papers. After seeing the scenes where they hit rock bottom financially, there was something about that scene that made me teary eyed. 

 

The fight was very brutal but I thought it was very well written and acted. That's exactly how a longtime married couple fights when the gloves are off. The one part that rang especially true was Dan trying to blame Roseanne for his distant relationship with his mother and her not letting him get away with it. As she said, she never stopped him from calling or going to see his mother. 

[Bastet]

Just now, ridethemaverick said:

To add: there was also an episode or two where Jackie came into the scene holding her jacket closed very tightly in a defensive/protective stance. It's certainly subtle but it's not something she did before or after the Fisher episodes.

Yes, I remember one instance of that pretty clearly in my mind, but can't for the life of me remember what episode it's from -- I have the niggling thought it the episode following the first break-up, but I didn't list it because I'd have to check to see if that's accurate.  I just remember seeing it again after the abuse was revealed, and it sticking out to me that she was holding herself the very same way she did when she came to Roseanne's after the beating that led to the abuse revelation.

If that scene was, indeed, in the immediate aftermath of the initial break-up, that would very much be another "ah, I see so much in hindsight now that I know" aspect of this.  If she broke up with him because he hit her, but didn't tell her family that was why, and then he gave his litany of excuses, apologies, and promises it would never happen again, and she took him back, that could have been the "We can work this out, we've done it before" he referred to. 

And that would add an extra layer to Roseanne's guilt at having pushed Jackie to get back together with him after that break-up. 

As realistic as is the litany of things that stand out in hindsight, so, too, is Jackie's reaction to things.  That she'd hide it for so long, that it took more than one time walking away to leave for good (average is seven times leaving and going back before leaving for good - or, tragically, being killed) that she'd be so embarrassed when it was revealed (and not wanting to go to the hospital in town, letting more people know), that she'd make excuses and blame herself (there's no work so he's edgy, I shouldn't have pushed, he's told me when he gets like this I should just leave him alone, etc.), that she'd waver when he was once again apologetic, that she'd get defensive when Roseanne just wants to cut-and-dried "you're leaving right now and never speaking to him again" be done, etc. 

That makes it especially moving to see Jackie send Roseanne away, and then disabuse Fisher of the notion that's so they can talk it out -- it's because she doesn't want Roseanne thinking she's the reason Jackie is leaving, and she doesn't want him thinking that, either.  She's deciding. 

[qtpye]

11 hours ago, ridethemaverick said:

Great post.

To add: there was also an episode or two where Jackie came into the scene holding her jacket closed very tightly in a defensive/protective stance. It's certainly subtle but it's not something she did before or after the Fisher episodes.

 

The fight was very brutal but I thought it was very well written and acted. That's exactly how a longtime married couple fights when the gloves are off. The one part that rang especially true was Dan trying to blame Roseanne for his distant relationship with his mother and her not letting him get away with it. As she said, she never stopped him from calling or going to see his mother. 

It really was well done and brutal to watch.  It also came out of Dan being forced to confront his own mortality and Roseanne refusing to enable his unhealthy choices.

 

11 hours ago, Bastet said:

Yes, I remember one instance of that pretty clearly in my mind, but can't for the life of me remember what episode it's from -- I have the niggling thought it the episode following the first break-up, but I didn't list it because I'd have to check to see if that's accurate.  I just remember seeing it again after the abuse was revealed, and it sticking out to me that she was holding herself the very same way she did when she came to Roseanne's after the beating that led to the abuse revelation.

If that scene was, indeed, in the immediate aftermath of the initial break-up, that would very much be another "ah, I see so much in hindsight now that I know" aspect of this.  If she broke up with him because he hit her, but didn't tell her family that was why, and then he gave his litany of excuses, apologies, and promises it would never happen again, and she took him back, that could have been the "We can work this out, we've done it before" he referred to. 

And that would add an extra layer to Roseanne's guilt at having pushed Jackie to get back together with him after that break-up. 

As realistic as is the litany of things that stand out in hindsight, so, too, is Jackie's reaction to things.  That she'd hide it for so long, that it took more than one time walking away to leave for good (average is seven times leaving and going back before leaving for good - or, tragically, being killed) that she'd be so embarrassed when it was revealed (and not wanting to go to the hospital in town, letting more people know), that she'd make excuses and blame herself (there's no work so he's edgy, I shouldn't have pushed, he's told me when he gets like this I should just leave him alone, etc.), that she'd waver when he was once again apologetic, that she'd get defensive when Roseanne just wants to cut-and-dried "you're leaving right now and never speaking to him again" be done, etc. 

That makes it especially moving to see Jackie send Roseanne away, and then disabuse Fisher of the notion that's so they can talk it out -- it's because she doesn't want Roseanne thinking she's the reason Jackie is leaving, and she doesn't want him thinking that, either.  She's deciding. 

That was so very important.  Jackie was always the beta to Roseanne's alpha.  This is a pattern she repeated in her romantic relationships.  It might have been one of the reasons it did not work out with Fred...he was too easy going for her.

In the beginning I thought the sisters had a very sweet realistic relationship.  Later, it seemed much more toxic.

I wonder how Roseanne would have really felt if Jackie had left Lanford aand became a success?  Roseanne would probably be equal parts happy and resentful that she got left behind.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

The fight was very brutal but I thought it was very well written and acted. That's exactly how a longtime married couple fights when the gloves are off. The one part that rang especially true was Dan trying to blame Roseanne for his distant relationship with his mother and her not letting him get away with it. As she said, she never stopped him from calling or going to see his mother.

All of THIS^^^ Plus it harks back to when, after their father died Jackie tried to blame Roseanne for being the reason she never saw him in the last years of his life. Like Jackie didn't know how to use a telephone or how to drive to his house or even host him at her place.

Quote

In the beginning I thought the sisters had a very sweet realistic relationship.  Later, it seemed much more toxic

It really did. If Jackie wanted to fuck up her life, Roseanne should simply have let her. And when she came crying back when it all blew up Roseanne could have said "well, it's your life, deal with it." Then maybe Jackie would think twice before getting involved with losers.

[Bastet]

23 minutes ago, Stacey1014 said:

If all of the older kids are going to be married in the new show, I hope they give DJ a wife similar to that bossy little girl he dated, someone who might give Roseanne a run for her money.

This from the revival thread made me think of an earlier episode (not the one in which he's dating bossy Lisa, a couple of seasons earlier, when he goes to a party):

Tell us about all the games and fun things you guys did.
I touched a boob.
Say what?
We played this game, seven minutes in heaven.  And I had to go in the closet with Sheila [Something].  And we just stood there doing nothing for like six minutes.
What happened in that last minute?
I told you, I touched a boob. She's my girlfriend now. She's coming over for dinner tomorrow night. She likes corn.

The matter-of-fact way D.J. imparts all this information, and Dan and Roseanne's reactions, are all hilarious.

[StaceyNotStacie]

Laff TV is back to the earlier seasons. I forgot how much I enjoyed the family dynamic when they were younger. There's something in the tone of the earlier seasons that is different in the later ones, and I can't quite pinpoint where it changed. 

I just watched the tornado episode and I'm wondering why they didn't go to the basement. I know they needed to be in the living room for the drama, especially with the window, but I always hear that everyone should head to a basement or closet. Did they ever mention why they never went to the basement?