Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Funzlerks]

They could give him a foot stool for the cloak ceremony. Who is tall enough for Sansa now? Jaime and Brienne are about the only ones I can think of. Brienne is basically Sansa's dream knight anyway, except for being a girl and looking away from that damn window once after a month's vigil. I hope next season begins with five episodes of Brienne asking people if they have seen her sister, a maid of ten and four, pretty with auburn hair. On the show, Brienne could just ask for the only other giant chick in Westeros. "You know she is tall, not like me-tall, but taller than all the other men in Westeros save Hodor, the Cleganes and Jaime Lannister."

I want to see what it's like to claw out of a snow drift that is large enough to support a fall of that height. And I want to see the teleportation devices Sam and Baelish use. And Daenerys's portable clothes dyer. All the things GRRM couldn't even dream up. I actually think GRRM has a great eye for detail, but going forward the show is going to have a lot more "huh?" moments to string the stories together at an episodic pace.

[Unknown poster]

He doesn't need to extricate her from her marriage to Ramsay.  Ramsay will be killed when they invade the North.

 

In the show, Littlefinger is clearly in control of the Vale.  The Vale lords are all his buddies.  The invasion is happening; there's no reason to bring that up otherwise.  And it's how they put Sansa and Littlefinger back into the same plot.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it doesn't. Besides the fact that LF is likely going to hear about Sansa's escape, which sort of scuttles any chance he'd have of holding any sway in the north, his plan of swooping in and cleaning up the mess left by the Stannis/Bolton battle has already blown up in his face. The Bolton's have a fresh army, (possibly with more troops than when LF left) a repaired, reinforced Winterfell, and the weather is turning fast. Even if LF can rally the lords of the Vale to march to war, they might very well be facing the same outcome that Stannis' army did.

[Tippi]

I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion and Sansa ended up as King and Queen at the end, if there will still be a monarchy.  Especially if Tyrion turns out to have some Targaryen blood. If Jon is resurrected, who knows what form he will take, or perhaps he would choose not to marry?  Or perhaps the conditions of the resurrection would be that he could not marry? Dany I could see possibly dying with her dragons at the end of a successful war against the White Walkers.  She and the dragons might be so wounded and exhausted that they would not survive.  Or, I could see her genuinely in love with Daario and refuse the crown to be his wife.

 

This is all complete guessing on my part--I barely read any of the books.  I will pitifully confess that I would love to see Jon and Dany together triumphant at the end!

[Avaleigh]

I am in love with the speculation that Jaime's boat could be bound for Meereen but I feel like the implication from the showrunners has been that the boat is indeed bound for King's Landing. That being said, I feel like the idea of Trystane and Jaime showing up to Meereen has so much potential they'd almost be fools to not explore that territory. There are so many possibilities. 

 

Can't agree here. He either cheated on his wife and them shamed her by bringing his bastard child into their home for her to raise or lied to his wife about cheating on her and then bringing what she thought was his bastard child into the home for her to raise.

Ned's shitty to women.

 

 

I agree that it was shitty of Ned to deceive Catelyn for that amount of time. I can totally understand him not owning up to the truth in the beginning since he still didn't know her well enough but after x amount of years of loyalty and devotion I think that he should have been able to trust her and I don't really agree that Catelyn wouldn't have been able to keep the secret or that she wouldn't have had the sense to not be obvious in some way about Jon's identity. 

 

I can't agree though that Ned is shitty to women in general. He wasn't fair to Catelyn though, I'm inclined to agree, and I can see how that would put him a couple of steps below Jon or Sam in the grand scheme of things. 

 

They could give him a foot stool for the cloak ceremony. Who is tall enough for Sansa now? Jaime and Brienne are about the only ones I can think of. Brienne is basically Sansa's dream knight anyway, except for being a girl and looking away from that damn window once after a month's vigil. I hope next season begins with five episodes of Brienne asking people if they have seen her sister, a maid of ten and four, pretty with auburn hair. On the show, Brienne could just ask for the only other giant chick in Westeros. "You know she is tall, not like me-tall, but taller than all the other men in Westeros save Hodor, the Cleganes and Jaime Lannister."
 

This reminds me of something I'm assuming that all of the regulars here have already seen but just in case...

 

Sansa Stark's Dating Woes:

http://alciha.deviantart.com/art/Sansa-s-Dating-Woes-part-one-91000891

http://alciha.deviantart.com/art/Sansa-s-Dating-Woes-part-two-91001036

 

Moreover, even if he's half Targaryen -so he could fall for a relative, I don't see Jon's Stark side falling for any woman he thought of as his sister all his life

 

I feel like this could be one of the reasons why there was always a distance between Jon and Sansa so that a future pairing wouldn't feel as squicky. Jon/Arya would feel like totally wrong brother sister incest because they have such a strong bond but I don't get the squick factor with Sansa as much because I don't think that the sibling bond is there in the same strong way that it is for Arya. Jon and Sansa clearly have a strong bond but to me it isn't as sibling like as what Jon has with Arya or his brothers.

 

I also can't help but think that there's something to how much Sansa resembles Catelyn and how Jon resembles Ned. I don't know why but it feels right to me.  

Edited June 19, 2015 by Avaleigh

[SeanC]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it doesn't. Besides the fact that LF is likely going to hear about Sansa's escape, which sort of scuttles any chance he'd have of holding any sway in the north, his plan of swooping in and cleaning up the mess left by the Stannis/Bolton battle has already blown up in his face. The Bolton's have a fresh army, (possibly with more troops than when LF left) a repaired, reinforced Winterfell, and the weather is turning fast. Even if LF can rally the lords of the Vale to march to war, they might very well be facing the same outcome that Stannis' army did.

Why would Sansa's escape scuttle his chances?  She's running from the Boltons (so far), not him; the safest place she could go would be to the Vale army, if it appeared.

 

While the Boltons won the Battle of Winterfell, they did take casualties, and regardless the Vale's army is larger.  Logistics, etc., pale in comparison to simple narrative logic:  Littlefinger is planning to invade the North. We know that Lord Royce is back next season.  It makes narrative sense, given where Sansa is and given that Littlefinger is vital to her book plot, to put them back in the same story.  There's no real narrative logic behind him not invading the North at this point, particularly as Stannis has been prematurely removed from the action, which clears the decks for the Valemen.

[MadMouse]

Can't agree here. He either cheated on his wife and them shamed her by bringing his bastard child into their home for her to raise or lied to his wife about cheating on her and then bringing what she thought was his bastard child into the home for her to raise.

 

Ned's shitty to women.

 

Well its not that simple. If the Ashara rumor is true its more he had to marry a woman who was intended for his older brother over the woman he truly fell in love with who died. Or he's protecting his nephew from the king who would kill anyone and everyone to kill him. And Catelyn was never forced to raise Jon, she barely spoke to him and was distant.

[screamin]

But the crime Cersei confessed to was sexual in nature, and so of course the punishment is. She confessed to adultery with a cousin, and that's what she was punished for. If she's convicted of regicide or any of her other crimes, I think the punishment will be less sexual in nature, although since adultery is still involved it might not be. I might add that she was hoping to watch Margaery endure that sort of punishment, and Loras suffer worse, when neither one of them have hurt her at all, and both in fact have helped her a great deal.

 

Thing is, in the books the Walk of Shame was not punishment for adultery...in the case of the Queen, that's treason and a death penalty offense. In the books Cersei only confessed to having sex with other men AFTER Robert was dead...that is, only fornication - sex outside the bounds of marriage. This minor pecadillo is punished by having her walk naked through the streets. IMO, the Sparrow comes off a lot worse in the books than he does in the show - in which he allows Cersei to escape punishment for adultery (ordinarily a death penalty offense for a woman married to the King) by doing the walk of shame.

 

Why the change? Does the show want to make the Sparrow look less evil?

Edited June 21, 2015 by screamin

[Hecate7]

I agree that it was shitty of Ned to deceive Catelyn for that amount of time. I can totally understand him not owning up to the truth in the beginning since he still didn't know her well enough but after x amount of years of loyalty and devotion I think that he should have been able to trust her and I don't really agree that Catelyn wouldn't have been able to keep the secret or that she wouldn't have had the sense to not be obvious in some way about Jon's identity. 

 

Put a knife to Robb or Bran's throats and Catelyn Stark would have sung like a canary. Nothing easier. Moreover, she'd have been very kindly disposed to the only child of Ned's dead sister, and that would have started rumors which in turn would have inspired Robert Baratheon to send someone to do exactly that: force Catelyn to choose between the children of her body, and the hapless Targaryen orphan.

 

This was not a matter of not knowing Catelyn, or whether he trusted her. This was like a CIA mission. Catelyn could not know, and there is simply no degree of love, or intimacy, or marital whatever, that would have made it okay to tell her. He made a promise to his sister on her deathbed. That trumps marital loyalty.

 

The irony of Ned's execution is that he had earned it. He was in fact guilty of treason, against his best friend. Had Robert ever discovered the truth, he'd have had Ned executed for treason, along with all of his collaborators. If any member of the family were revealed as knowing but not reporting Ned's actions, they would be beheaded right alongside him for conspiring against Robert Baratheon. So Ned's lie to Catelyn was as much about saving HER life, as it was about saving Jon's or his own. It was kind and heroic of Ned to lie to Catelyn.

 

My reason for downgrading him below Jon Snow and Sam Tarley, is that Snow and Tarley have had strictly consensual sex with women who were not only willing, but actually took the initiative. Ned, by contrast, dutifully consummated an arranged marriage with a woman he did not love, who did not love him either at the time. It was probably not like Ramsey Bolton deliberately making it as painful as possible for Sansa--I'm sure Ned did his best to minimize the pain to Catelyn, but I'm equally sure he had absolutely no idea what he was doing and that it was very uncomfortable on every level, because it was purely out of duty at first on both sides. Although like Tyrion he vetoed the bedding because of Catelyn's embarrassment, unlike Tyrion he plowed ahead with the consummation because it would never have occurred to him not to. AND he was party to the very young, unstable Lyssa Arryn being married off to Jon Arryn, a man old enough to be her father, or perhaps even her grandfather. Small sins for his day and age, but they're still there.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Hecate7

[Oscirus]

Two things:

 

1. Robert loved Ned more then anyone else in this world, I doubt that he would do something like threatening his kids. Even if by some weird coincidence  the thought crossed his mind, Jon Arryn would've stopped him .

 

2. Cat wanted to raise her own kids. So best case scenario, she gets told about Jon and treats him indifferently as opposed to with so much hate.

 

I doubt that Jon  winds up with Sansa on the show just based on the fact that they shared zero scenes together when they were both in winterfell.

[Hecate7]

Two things:

 

1. Robert loved Ned more then anyone else in this world, I doubt that he would do something like threatening his kids. Even if by some weird coincidence  the thought crossed his mind, Jon Arryn would've stopped him .

 

2. Cat wanted to raise her own kids. So best case scenario, she gets told about Jon and treats him indifferently as opposed to with so much hate.

 

I doubt that Jon  winds up with Sansa on the show just based on the fact that they shared zero scenes together when they were both in winterfell.

 

1. Let's look at Robert's treatment of Ned's kids, shall we? Remember Lady? Remember Arya's word against Joffrey's? Robert's love of Ned only goes so far. Robert was the first to say Bran might be better off dead. So he's not that sentimental about kids in the first place. And if Robert thought Ned had betrayed him, that love could turn on the dime and Ned knows it. There is nothing more upsetting than being betrayed by someone you love. The greater the love, the greater the sense of betrayal. Robert's injured outrage would know no bounds.

 

Also, I don't think Jon Arryn would have had a thing to say about it. Look at how much luck Ned had with persuading Robert not to send assassins after Danaerys.  Robert only listened to the Hand when he wanted to.

 

2. When have we ever seen Cat actually hide her feelings? She couldn't hide her hatred for a baby. She couldn't hide her fury when Littlefinger proposed to her, even though it was in her best interests to do so. Had she known Jon was the only son of Ned's beloved dead sister, and that BOTH of his parents were dead, she'd have shown him a great deal of kindness and affection--she wouldn't have been able to be indifferent. She never could. She couldn't resist freeing Jaime. She had no subtlety or trickiness in her. Even her sister noticed that.

 

But I do agree Jon winding up with Sansa is unlikely. There is some foreshadowing, in that he really seems to like redheads, and also that their relationship at Winterfell was distant enough to avoid that whole sibling syndrome thing. But I think Jon, if he lives, has Danaerys' name on him.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Hecate7

[Oscirus]

. Let's look at Robert's treatment of Ned's kids, shall we? Remember Lady? Remember Arya's word against Joffrey's? Robert's love of Ned only goes so far.

 

 

As far as Robert knew, Arya attacked the crown prince and got to keep her head, that should tell you all you need to know about how close those two were. As for Lady's death, it makes sense that Robert would want the wolves dead given the story he just heard. Why would he want wild animals running around King's landing?  As for believing Joffrey over Arya? Even if we ignore the fact that as far as he knows, Joffrey's his son. Not even Sansa backed Arya's side of the story, so why should Robert believe her?

 

Had she known Jon was the only son of Ned's beloved dead sister, and that BOTH of his parents were dead, she'd have shown him a great deal of kindness and affection--she wouldn't have been able to be indifferent

 

You think that Ned making a major family decision without  consulting her wouldn't have pissed her off? She might not have taken it out on John, but there is no way in hell that she'd treat him like one of her own children.

 

Besides, why would Robert or anybody else for that matter suspect that John is Rhaegar and Lyanna'a son? Expecting the secret to be outted due to the way that Cat acts around a supposed bastard baby is pushing it.

[Amtosbm]

 

But I do agree Jon winding up with Sansa is unlikely. There is some foreshadowing, in that he really seems to like redheads, and also that their relationship at Winterfell was distant enough to avoid that whole sibling syndrome thing. But I think Jon, if he lives, has Danaerys' name on him.

I am not sure if Jon is going to end up with anyone. I think the fact that he is technically dead means that once he serves his purpose after being resurrected he will be gone again.  I have to admit I really liked him with Val in the books, but since she isn't in the show and he is currently dead, I am guessing that is unlikely. No one I ship ends up together in the books. I was hoping Sansa would end up with Willas because I thought he would treat her well but again that is looking unlikely. Although Martin did say he will have a part to play in the next books.

 

I hope Sansa stays in the North just because I don't want her back in the clutches of Littlefinger again. I really don't know why she would stay there though, as Ramsay will be leaving no stone unturned and no one alive, in his quest to get her back. I am curious if Walda's baby is going to live. If it doesn't this might mean the end of the Bolton line. Not that that wouldn't be a good thing. In fact it looks like a lot of house lines may be ending.

 

 

I am in love with the speculation that Jaime's boat could be bound for Meereen but I feel like the implication from the showrunners has been that the boat is indeed bound for King's Landing. That being said, I feel like the idea of Trystane and Jaime showing up to Meereen has so much potential they'd almost be fools to not explore that territory. There are so many possibilities.

I would love this also but I don't think we will get this lucky.  Kings Landing has gone from my favourite part of the show to my least favourite. I really don't care what happens to Loras, Margeory, Tommen, or even Cersei.  I am hyped for Cleganbowl though!

 

I have no idea what is going on with Arya. I am curious though because Melisandra said that they would meet again. There has been no hints of that in the books.

 

I can't see how the show is going to wrap up all of these story lines in twenty episodes.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Amtosbm

[SeanC]

My reason for downgrading him below Jon Snow and Sam Tarley, is that Snow and Tarley have had strictly consensual sex with women who were not only willing, but actually took the initiative. Ned, by contrast, dutifully consummated an arranged marriage with a woman he did not love, who did not love him either at the time. It was probably not like Ramsey Bolton deliberately making it as painful as possible for Sansa--I'm sure Ned did his best to minimize the pain to Catelyn, but I'm equally sure he had absolutely no idea what he was doing and that it was very uncomfortable on every level, because it was purely out of duty at first on both sides. Although like Tyrion he vetoed the bedding because of Catelyn's embarrassment, unlike Tyrion he plowed ahead with the consummation because it would never have occurred to him not to. AND he was party to the very young, unstable Lyssa Arryn being married off to Jon Arryn, a man old enough to be her father, or perhaps even her grandfather. Small sins for his day and age, but they're still there.

Catelyn doesn't seem to have had any problems with it.  I really don't see why going through with an arranged marriage somehow makes Ned less moral.  Arranged marriages are not intrinsically worse than marrying for love, though it of course can often be misused (particularly to the woman's disadvantage in a patriarchal culture).

 

Likewise, he was "party" to Lysa's marriage?  Lysa was marriageable age, and it was a matter between her, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn.  Nor did anyone know she was unstable (the Lysa we meet in AGOT is very different from the last time Catelyn saw her, a few years earlier).

 

Also, the "no bedding" is show-only nonsense.  There most definitely was a bedding in the books.

[benteen]

Arranged marriage was just the way things were in Westeros.  Catelyn didn't have any problem with that...the only thing with Ned was that she truly didn't know him.

[Portia4844]

I'm not sure why it matters where on the scale Ned falls as a husband.  Cat was vindictive shrew who couldn't make a good decision when anyone's life depended on it and ended up causing countless damage to her own family because of it.   She may have not had any choice in marrying Ned but there's no evidence that he violated her sexually or was physically abusive.  He didn't share a secret  and kept a promise to his sister.  Even when Cat decided she loved Ned, it certainly never extended towards Jon.  And fine, she wasn't expected to love Jon but what kind of person continues to take out her anger on an innocent child?   As much as I tried, while reading the books, I couldn't come up with any sympathy or compassion for Cat having to marry Ned and deal with him bringing home a child he claimed was his son.  And even less so with Show-Cat.  

 

I agree that she would have sang like a canary if it meant protecting her own children or for various other reasons,  and she just wasn't trustworthy with such a secret.  

[SeanC]

I agree that she would have sang like a canary if it meant protecting her own children or for various other reasons,  and she just wasn't trustworthy with such a secret.  

If someone is holding her hostage and interrogating her about Jon's parentage, they already know the secret, so I'm not sure what difference it would make.

 

Even when Cat decided she loved Ned, it certainly never extended towards Jon.  And fine, she wasn't expected to love Jon but what kind of person continues to take out her anger on an innocent child? 

A woman who is expressing anger the only socially-acceptable way available to her?  Like, read her POV and she talks about how "a man has his needs" and she understands that, but the only concession she wants is that he not keep the kid around, and he can't do that.  In a modern society Catelyn would actually have the rights and capability of meaningfully addressing her situation with Ned, i.e., by having the option to leave, or to refuse to have Jon in the house.  In the world of Westeros, she can't do either of those things.  She's stuck with Ned for life.

Edited June 21, 2015 by SeanC

[Happy Harpy]

I can't see how the show is going to wrap up all of these story lines in twenty episodes.

Me either! Especially with the characters who disappeared and the actors were told they'd be back in later seasons, and the new characters to come. Unless it ends in a senseless Armageddon.

 

A woman who is expressing anger the only socially-acceptable way available to her?  Like, read her POV and she talks about how "a man has his needs" and she understands that, but the only concession she wants is that he not keep the kid around, and he can't do that. 

That's precisely why I could never warm up to the character. She could have taken her anger on her cheating husband  -respecting her wifely duties yet giving him the cold shoulder/keeping her emotional distance, but she chose to take her anger on the child who was a victim of the mess instead. I guess that daily life was more comfortable for her this way.

I don't know if Catelyn's story to Talisa about Jon Snow and his illness makes it worse of better. On the one hand, it shows that at least she didn't hate poor innocent Jon to the point of wishing him dead. On the other hand, knowing that she didn't hate him, she dumbly, stubbornly kept the same vindictive attitude.

And in my eyes, a modern woman who would deprive a child of his father by refusing to have him in their home, especially if the child was already deprived of his mother, would be simply despicable.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[SeanC]

That's precisely why I could never warm up to the character. She could have taken her anger on her cheating husband  -respecting her wifely duties yet giving him the cold shoulder/keeping her emotional distance, but she chose to take her anger on the child who was a victim of the mess instead. I guess that daily life was more comfortable for her this way.

Catelyn is shaped by her world's social customs too.  Reading between the lines, she dislikes that Ned cheated on her (supposedly), but the social circumstances put her in a place where she really can't be angry about that.  The only privilege she's meant to have while her husband freely cheats is that she doesn't have to see the kid every day, and Ned has denied her that.  It's an unfortunate situation for all parties, but I think it's rather unfair to blame her for trying to make as good a life for herself as possible in the circumstances others have put her in, given that all she did was ignore Jon, who was not her responsibility to begin with.

 

And in my eyes, a modern woman who would deprive a child of his father by refusing to have him in their home, especially if the child was already deprived of his mother, would be simply despicable.

 

 

The rather obvious point:  Catelyn is not a modern woman.  In your "modern woman" scenario, either:

 

A)  Catelyn marries Ned knowing that he has a kid.  It is reasonable to expect her to either welcome said child, or not marry Ned at all.

B)  Ned cheats on Catelyn after they're married, and wants to bring the child of that affair into their home.  It is reasonable to expect Catelyn to either divorce Ned's cheating ass (which is what most people would expect her to do today), or to work out her issues with Ned and take the kid into the home and deal with it as best she can.

 

Neither of those scenarios correspond to the book, where Catelyn effectively belongs to Ned for the rest of her life.  There's nowhere for her to go, and she has no choice in the matter.

[Happy Harpy]

The rather obvious point:  Catelyn is not a modern woman.  In your "modern woman" scenario, either:

Actually, the "modern woman" scenario isn't mine, I was answering to your:

 

In a modern society Catelyn would actually have the rights and capability of meaningfully addressing her situation with Ned, i.e., by having the option to leave, or to refuse to have Jon in the house.  In the world of Westeros, she can't do either of those things.  She's stuck with Ned for life.

Where, unless I misunderstood (sorry then) you mentioned that had she been a modern woman Catelyn would have had the option to refuse to have Jon in the house. It's a modern woman choosing this option that I would find despicable, precisely because unlike Catelyn, she has the option to leave.

 

 It's an unfortunate situation for all parties, but I think it's rather unfair to blame her for trying to make as good a life for herself as possible in the circumstances others have put her in, given that all she did was ignore Jon, who was not her responsibility to begin with.

 

Neither of those scenarios correspond to the book, where Catelyn effectively belongs to Ned for the rest of her life.  There's nowhere for her to go, and she has no choice in the matter.

 We'll have to agree to disagree, because I do think that it's fair to blame Catelyn for making a better life for herself at the sake of a child's emotional well being (= what ignoring Jon means for me, although she also actively excluded him IIRC) and I think that she had a choice, the choice to be the better person, the choice to show the true heart of a mother (the one who feels for every child, not only hers) and try to not make the poor child pay for her wounded ego. Especially since Jon wasn't a little brat but a sweet boy IIRC.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[SeanC]

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I do think that it's fair to blame Catelyn for making a better life for herself at the sake of a child's emotional well being (= what ignoring Jon means for me, although she also actively excluded him IIRC) and I think that she had a choice, the choice to be the better person, the choice to show the true heart of a mother (the one who feels for every child, not only hers) and try to not make the poor child pay for her wounded ego. Especially since Jon wasn't a little brat but a sweet boy IIRC.

A mother's love is not a universal resource, and it's unfair to expect Catelyn to force herself to care for a kid that Ned has pushed into her life against her wishes.  She is exercising what little agency her society allows her in this scenario.

 

I'm not saying this makes her a saint, either.  She's a person in an unfortunate situation trying to make the best of it, just like Ned and Jon.

Edited June 21, 2015 by SeanC

[BlackberryJam]

Except she's not trying to make the best of it. Trying to make the best of it would be making a solid attempt to get over the anger she feels at an innocent child and trying to give him a positive loving home. Catelyn is most definitely not trying to make the best of it. That's the point being made here.

 

When faced with shitty options, she chooses the low road.

[Portia4844]

Cat didn't have to force herself to care about Jon.  However, she could have forced herself to stop being a bitch towards him.   How is treating an innocent child in a shitty way showing some sort of agency?    There's no evidence that her life with Ned, other than him bringing Jon home, was some awful cross to bear.   All I thought when reading her POV was Get off the damn cross we need the wood and stop making a child pay for your unresolved anger issues at Ned.  There's no evidence to suggest Ned did or  would have abused her because she expressed anger over the situation.  My issue with Ned was him not telling her to take it out on him and not Jon.  Granted, I didn't like her in the books and even less on the show.  I saw her as making choices that had deadly consequences to Ned and to the children she  loved so much.  In the end, Jon was the only one her choices didn't destroy unless we count him being at the Wall because she didn't want him around.   

[Avaleigh]

A mother's love is not a universal resource, and it's unfair to expect Catelyn to force herself to care for a kid that Ned has pushed into her life against her wishes.  She is exercising what little agency her society allows her in this scenario.

 

I'm not saying this makes her a saint, either.  She's a person in an unfortunate situation trying to make the best of it, just like Ned and Jon.

I would have settled for politely distant, vague, disinterested that sort of thing. Jon feels her hate and hasn't remembered anything positive from her in terms of the way she treats him. She makes him feel like a black cloud and this ends up having a negative impact on the entire household. They all know how she feels about Jon and it's pretty telling that Jon feels like he's walking on eggshells when he simply tries to say goodbye to the brother he has known since he was born. Even under these circumstances (where Jon is choosing to take the black and will finally be out of her hair) Jon knows that he's going to be in for some shit when he's forced to deal with her. To me there's just something unreasonable about the way she treats him. 

 

I didn't see her trying to make the best of it as far as Jon was concerned. Jon was the innocent party and she treats him like he's the one who messed up. 

 

Typically when this discussion comes up there is the argument that Catelyn didn't treat Jon the way that Cersei would have and I would always think 'if that's the best we can do is say she's better than Cersei then maybe she should have modified her behavior a little bit here.'

[AshleyN]

As far as Robert knew, Arya attacked the crown prince and got to keep her head, that should tell you all you need to know about how close those two were.

Well, it could just tell you that Robert isn't stupid enough to permanently nuke his relationship with his most loyal vassal (who also happens to be one of the most powerful men in Westeros) over a fight between a couple of kids. Especially since cultivating good relationships with his lords is supposed to be the one kingly thing he's actually good at.

 

I mean, I'm not denying that Robert genuinely loved Ned like a brother and that probably played a role in how he dealt with the Arya situation, but I've always thought it was pretty clear that Cersei's attempt to have her killed for that incident (an act that would poison the Crown's relationship with the North for at least a generation and likely longer, not to mention any issues with the Riverlands) was meant to be another example of how vindictive and short-sighted she is.

 

That being said, I do think the question of exactly how far Robert's wrath would have gone if he'd found out the truth is one of those interesting ones that we'll never know the answer to. I mean, I think he 100% would have had Jon killed, and I don't see any way in which we avoid Ned's execution for treason (assuming Ned doesn't die defending Jon, which seems entirely possible), but beyond that things get interesting. Would he be content to have Robb become the new Lord of Winterfell and that's that? Would he be determined to find out if anyone else knew so he could kill them too? Would he attempt to strip the Starks of the Wardenship of the North altogether* over the sheer depth of the betrayal (in his eyes at least)?

 

 

*A task that, as we've seen in ADWD, is easier said than done, especially if the North is at full strength. Which is something that Robert would likely be aware of, so again it's a question of how far could his fury take him.

Edited June 22, 2015 by AshleyN

[anamika]

 To me there's just something unreasonable about the way she treats him. 

 

That's because the way she treats him is pretty damn unreasonable. It always gets my hackles up when people suggest that Catelyn was just exercising her agency by treating Jon the way she did. Apparently it does not matter how women exercise their agency, only that they do. She wanted a happy life with her husband, so she took out her anger on someone who had just as little choice as herself. Jon had no say in the matter, just like her, and she held more power than him. The fact that Jon felt that she begrudged him every bite and that he was scared to even go talk to Bran when she was sitting with him, tells us a great deal of how Catelyn dealt with Ned's bastard.

 

And it was clear, that her behaviour had an effect on Jon. She was one of the reasons that propelled Jon to go join the Watch. And one of the reasons that Ned agreed to it as well, as Cat wanted Jon gone from Winterfell when Ned was leaving for KL. In ASoS, when Stannis offers Jon Winterfell, it was Cat's angry face that he remembers. A reminder that he did not belong in Winterfell.

 

 

Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father’s heir. It was not Lord Eddard’s face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn’s. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought, but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

Edited June 22, 2015 by anamika

[J----av]

As far as Robert knew, Arya attacked the crown prince and got to keep her head, that should tell you all you need to know about how close those two were. As for Lady's death, it makes sense that Robert would want the wolves dead given the story he just heard. Why would he want wild animals running around King's landing?  As for believing Joffrey over Arya? Even if we ignore the fact that as far as he knows, Joffrey's his son. Not even Sansa backed Arya's side of the story, so why should Robert believe her?

 

 

 Robert admitted to Ned that he knew Joff was lying and Arya was telling the truth

[Hecate7]

That being said, I do think the question of exactly how far Robert's wrath would have gone if he'd found out the truth is one of those interesting ones that we'll never know the answer to. I mean, I think he 100% would have had Jon killed, and I don't see any way in which we avoid Ned's execution for treason (assuming Ned doesn't die defending Jon, which seems entirely possible), but beyond that things get interesting. Would he be content to have Robb become the new Lord of Winterfell and that's that?

 

 

Absolutely not, if he had the faintest inkling that Ned's entire family knew about the conspiracy to commit treason. It would be hard to save the family even if there was no proof of that, because the assumption would be that Ned wouldn't lie to Catelyn or keep any secrets from the family. Winterfell and the North would have been taken away from Ned and given to someone else. Jon Snow, Ned, and Cat would be executed, and most likely Robb and Theon, too. The ones who might be pardoned, Bran and Rickon, would be sent to the Wall. Not sure what he'd have done to the girls. If he presumed them innocent he might bring them to court and try to marry them off well, or take them into service. If not, they'd' be executed, too.

 

 

If someone is holding her hostage and interrogating her about Jon's parentage, they already know the secret, so I'm not sure what difference it would make.

 

The difference is, in once scenario she knows and can tell, and she and the kids die and Winterfell is lost. In the other scenario she has no idea what they're talking about, and she and the children have a chance of survival, or even inheriting.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

Catelyn doesn't seem to have had any problems with it.  I really don't see why going through with an arranged marriage somehow makes Ned less moral.  Arranged marriages are not intrinsically worse than marrying for love, though it of course can often be misused (particularly to the woman's disadvantage in a patriarchal culture).

 

Likewise, he was "party" to Lysa's marriage?  Lysa was marriageable age, and it was a matter between her, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn.  Nor did anyone know she was unstable (the Lysa we meet in AGOT is very different from the last time Catelyn saw her, a few years earlier).

 

Also, the "no bedding" is show-only nonsense.  There most definitely was a bedding in the books.

 

Never said it made him less moral. I said it made him less woman-friendly, less feminist. And it does.

 

Ned was a party to Lyssa's marriage because he and Jon and Cat and Lyssa had a double ceremony.

[Oscirus]

I think its expecting quite a lot from Cat to expect her to accept a bastard into her home without any complaint. Could she have treated him better? Yea, but at the same time, Ned could have just as easily came up with a lie that didn't revolve around his being unfaithful to her. While Cat's treatment of Jon might have had an influence on him, it was Ned who labeled him as a bastard. Good enough to live with the Starks but not good enough to have his name or inherit the family property or even stand in the front row  when the king comes. I'm not letting Cat off the hook because it was unfair of her to take it out on Jon but still.

The dude is suffering the sins of his selfish parents and an uncle who couldn't think of a decent story , yet Cat's  the only one that seems to get any blame because she doesn't want Ned's infidelity rubbed in her face whenever she walks around Winterfell.

[Hecate7]

Any other story would have given it away. Ned had a freshly dead sister and a newborn baby in his arms. The only story he could tell, that wouldn't be an obvious lie, is the one he told.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Hecate7

[anamika]

 While Cat's treatment of Jon might have had an influence on him, it was Ned who labeled him as a bastard. Good enough to live with the Starks but not good enough to have his name or inherit the family property or even stand in the front row  when the king comes. I'm not letting Cat off the hook because it was unfair of her to take it out on Jon but still.

 

     As much as Ned promised to take care of his sister's son, he is not going to give up his own children's inheritance. Why should he? Jon had no mother who could take care of him. He was an orphan. The next best option was to bring up as a bastard. Ned treated him the same as Robb except for that one difference because in the grand scheme of things, Winterfell rightfully belongs to Robb, not Jon.

 

To have legitimized Jon would have been even worse for Catelyn. Her own children overlooked for Jon? She would have made life even more hellish for Jon if that had happened. The Tullys would have been outraged.  I think Ned chose the best option for Jon. He could give Jon a decent life and keep an eye on him. Jon got the love of his siblings and learned from the best.

 

The dude is suffering the sins of his selfish parents and an uncle who couldn't think of a decent story , yet Cat's  the only one that seems to get any blame because she doesn't want Ned's infidelity rubbed in her face whenever she walks around Winterfell.

 

Let's also understand that it was probably not an easy choice that Ned had to make. For him, honor was everything. And yet he took on the dishonor of siring a bastard to save a child.

 

Catelyn gets blamed because she takes out her anger at Ned's infidelity on an innocent child who holds no blame in this matter. Just like Tywin gets blamed for taking it out on Tyrion that he was born a dwarf. Ned was trying to protect/save a child. Catelyn blamed the child. See the difference?

 

Ned shut down any talk of Ashara Dayne and did not force Cat to do anything regarding Jon. When Catelyn wanted Jon gone from Winterfell, he assented. He did what he could without kicking Jon off to go live somewhere else without any family.

 

Ned was caught between a rock and a hard place. He obviously thought that he could not burden Catelyn with the information and that it was too risky to tell her the truth. From my reading of her character, Cat would have blabbed about Jon the instant any of her kids were in danger. Catelyn truly loved Ned with all her heart and blamed Jon for existing. My sympathies are definitely more with Ned than Catelyn in this situation.

Edited June 22, 2015 by anamika

[Avaleigh]

In retrospect I agree with those who wonder why Jon wasn't simply made to squire for some nobleman upon Ned being appointed as Hand. Houses Karstark, Manderly, and maybe even Blackwood all seem like they would have been fine candidates.

 

I think its expecting quite a lot from Cat to expect her to accept a bastard into her home without any complaint. Could she have treated him better? Yea, but at the same time, Ned could have just as easily came up with a lie that didn't revolve around his being unfaithful to her. While Cat's treatment of Jon might have had an influence on him, it was Ned who labeled him as a bastard. Good enough to live with the Starks but not good enough to have his name or inherit the family property or even stand in the front row  when the king comes. I'm not letting Cat off the hook because it was unfair of her to take it out on Jon but still.

The dude is suffering the sins of his selfish parents and an uncle who couldn't think of a decent story , yet Cat's  the only one that seems to get any blame because she doesn't want Ned's infidelity rubbed in her face whenever she walks around Winterfell.

I don't think that anyone was suggesting that Catelyn should have just accepted Jon's presence in her life without a word of complaint. 

 

This discussion actually came about because of criticism of Ned and whether or not he's treated Catelyn poorly. I personally think that at some point Ned could have confided the truth in Catelyn. If nothing else I think he could have put it to her in a different way in a way that wouldn't have made Cat think that he was keeping a secret about the only other woman he appears to have loved. Try to get her to understand that in keeping Jon he's trying to do the right thing as opposed to trying to hurt her. He didn't want to talk about it at all and I think that made matters worse for Catelyn because she fears that in some way even though he hardly spent any time with this mystery woman that Ned's love for that woman is somehow comparable or on a level with his love for her.

 

I have to agree that if somebody were trying to get the truth about Jon out of Catelyn then they'd likely already know the deal anyway so it seems like an unlikely scenario anyway. Not saying it's impossible just not super likely.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Hecate7]

You think that Ned making a major family decision without  consulting her wouldn't have pissed her off? She might not have taken it out on John, but there is no way in hell that she'd treat him like one of her own children.

 

 

 

Actually, even I think better of Catelyn than that. I think if she knew that Jon Snow was her own nephew, and the only child of Ned's dead sister, she would have treated the poor orphan lovingly. I don't think she'd have been able to help it.

 

As for being angry that Ned made an "important family decision without consulting her," it's not the 20th or 21st century. Catelyn isn't really supposed to be able to do anything about the fact that Ned brought a bastard into the house. She can't divorce him for adultery, but you think she should feel entitled to be consulted whenever Ned makes an "important family decision?" I don't think Catelyn is under the misapprehension that she's Lord of Winterfell. In this case the decision is whether to keep a deathbed promise to his sister, and so Catelyn doesn't get a vote. Harsh, but true.

 

If Cat were smarter she'd have thought more deeply about who the "only other woman Ned loved" could have been, and come up with the answer herself anyway.

 

Someone trying to get the truth out of Catelyn would probably have some idea of the truth, yes. But I think if Cat had known, so would Lyssa, and all five Stark children, and Jon Arryn. In this case honesty was not the best policy.

[Oscirus]

The difference is, in once scenario she knows and can tell, and she and the kids die and Winterfell is lost. In the other scenario she has no idea what they're talking about, and she and the children have a chance of survival, or even inheriting.

 

If Robert is the monster that you're proposing and he somehow invades Winterfell and kidnaps Cat then she's dead regardless of whether or not she knows about Jon's parents. He would just assume she was lying and have her tortured/killed anyway.

 

Any other story would have given it away. Ned had a freshly dead sister and a newborn baby in his arms. The only story he could tell, that wouldn't be an obvious lie, is the one he told.

 

 

I think people are giving Robert way too much credit. Robert didn't even know that Cersei's kids weren't his (despite the fact that none of them looked like him) or that he wasn't having sex with his wife. I seriously doubt he'd be able to pick up on something as complicated as what Ned was doing. Ned could have at least came up with a less hurtful lie.

 

. Ned treated him the same as Robb except for that one difference because in the grand scheme of things, Winterfell rightfully belongs to Robb, not Jon.

 

 

No, Ned treated him like a second class citizen and caused Jon to be in a house where he was hated growing up by the lady of the house.  Theon was treated better then Jon and Theon was a hostage. I'm not expecting Jon to be in the will, but at least stop treating him like he was a mistake.

 

Catelyn gets blamed because she takes out her anger at Ned's infidelity on an innocent child who holds no blame in this matter. Just like Tywin gets blamed for taking it out on Tyrion that he was born a dwarf. Ned was trying to protect/save a child. Catelyn blamed the child. See the difference?

 

 

Yea, Tywin hated Tyrion for being a birth defect while  Ned labeled Jon a mistake and Cat hated Jon for being said mistake. There's no reason that Ned couldn't tell Cat the truth other then the fact that there was no conflict if he acted rationally. So I'm definitely sympathizing with Cat more then Ned in this situation. Though Jon is the only truly sympathetic character in all this.

 

. I personally think that at some point Ned could have confided the truth in Catelyn. If nothing else I think he could have put it to her in a different way in a way that wouldn't have made Cat think that he was keeping a secret about the only other woman he appears to have loved. Try to get her to understand that in keeping Jon he's trying to do the right thing as opposed to trying to hurt her. He didn't want to talk about it at all and I think that made matters worse for Catelyn because she fears that in some way even though he hardly spent any time with this mystery woman that Ned's love for that woman is somehow comparable or on a level with his love for her.

 

 

Well said, I agree with this.

 

Catelyn isn't really supposed to be able to do anything about the fact that Ned brought a bastard into the house.

 

 

Which is why Cat took it out on Jon. I agree that it's unfair, but Ned needlessly caused that toxic situation. 

 

Actually, even I think better of Catelyn than that. I think if she knew that Jon Snow was her own nephew, and the only child of Ned's dead sister, she would have treated the poor orphan lovingly. I don't think she'd have been able to help it.

 

 

Nephew or not, Jon was still competition for her kids. She was never going to treat Jon with anything better then indifference.

 

 

 

 

[DigitalCount]

I think people are giving Robert way too much credit. Robert didn't even know that Cersei's kids weren't his (despite the fact that none of them looked like him) or that he wasn't having sex with his wife. I seriously doubt he'd be able to pick up on something as complicated as what Ned was doing. Ned could have at least came up with a less hurtful lie.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Facially, it's not particularly complicated. Ned knew Robert was in the business of killing Targaryens, so he protected one that would matter to him. It's not as if Robert thinks that Rhaegar probably didn't touch her, and he has no illusions about how crazy Targs get.

Contrast that with his own marital woes, which he has a compelling reason to ignore: his ego. Robert Baratheon, famed hero of the Trident, leader of the Rebellion, and king of the 7K, can't get his woman with child even once? Then he has to question his manhood, his regality, his own core. It's very easy to ignore problems at home, especially when they reveal an ugly truth one would rather not acknowledge.

Do I think Robert knew deep inside about his cuckolding? Maybe, it would explain why he disengaged so forcefully. But I'm pretty confident that he would just dismiss anything that seemed to point in that direction, so I don't think it's compelling evidence as to how discerning Robert could be about something he hates and that doesn't challenge his own masculinity.

[MadMouse]

Ned's own thoughts tell you why he never told Cat about Jon. He knows she'd sell Jon out in a heartbeat like any other mother would.

 

"If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body?" He did not know. He prayed he never would

 

People are completely underestimating how dangerous Jon's heritage is at the beginning of the series. A son of Rhaegar is a massive rallying cry for people why do you think Kevan fears Faegon? That knowledge is beyond dangerous. Half the lords in the realm would want to to kill him and the other half would crown him king. 

[benteen]

Catelyn was under no obligation to love Jon but she didn't have to treat him the way she did.  What happened to Bran was no excuse for the things she said to Jon when he came to say good-bye.  I do think she regretted what she said though...isn't that kind of hinted at during the scene where she met Mya Stone.

 

It's too bad Benjen wasn't with Ned when he fought in the Rebellion.  Benjen could have claimed Jon as his bastard and it would have saved a lot of angst with Ned and Catelyn.  She still would have been leary of Jon because she seems to have a good knowledge of history when it comes to bastards challenging their trueborn relatives.  But she likely would have treated Jon better if she had thought he was Benjen's son.

 

Fostering the Stark kids seems to be something Ned never even considered.  Robb was 14 and hadn't left home.  I think losing most of his family and his distrust of anything down South made Ned unwilling to do this, which I think was a mistake.  If he didn't want to see Robb for example down South, he could have had him fostered at White Harbor.  That's the closest thing to a Southern city and close to King's Landing.  I always thought Arya would have thrived if she had been fostered at Bear's Island.  She would have loved it there with Lady Mormont.  She would have gotten on well with Dacey Mormont, who could have taught her to be a warrior AND a lady.  You could probably find a lot of Northern houses would have willingly taken in Jon Snow.

[Avaleigh]

Fostering the Stark kids seems to be something Ned never even considered.  Robb was 14 and hadn't left home.  I think losing most of his family and his distrust of anything down South made Ned unwilling to do this, which I think was a mistake.  If he didn't want to see Robb for example down South, he could have had him fostered at White Harbor.  That's the closest thing to a Southern city and close to King's Landing.  I always thought Arya would have thrived if she had been fostered at Bear's Island.  She would have loved it there with Lady Mormont.  She would have gotten on well with Dacey Mormont, who could have taught her to be a warrior AND a lady.  You could probably find a lot of Northern houses would have willingly taken in Jon Snow.

Aw, I love this. It's perfect.

[AshleyN]

I think people are giving Robert way too much credit. Robert didn't even know that Cersei's kids weren't his (despite the fact that none of them looked like him) or that he wasn't having sex with his wife. I seriously doubt he'd be able to pick up on something as complicated as what Ned was doing. Ned could have at least came up with a less hurtful lie.

It's not just Robert he has to worry about though -- if ANYONE were to figure out, or even suspect, that Jon is Rhaegar's kid it would put him in mortal danger. As it is I find it surprising that people like Varys and Littlefinger don't even seem to suspect anything. Even the bastard story raises some eyebrows, since it seems so out of character for Ned*. I can't imagine anything else that wouldn't have at least risked people asking uncomfortable questions.

 

*Though I wonder if in some cases that might have actually helped matters. For someone like Littlefinger for example, the fact that it knocks "the honourable Ned Stark" down a peg and shows he's not infallible may have been why he didn't look to question it.

 

As for the matter of telling Catelyn, I mean maybe he could have, but it makes sense to me that he wouldn't. First of all, it would have put her in the position of having to commit treason along with him, which someone with Ned's moral code would consider a far worse crime than lying about Jon being his kid. Second of all, even if she is trustworthy the fact is that the more people who know, the greater the risk of being found out, and this is an area in which he is (quite understandably IMO) simply not willing to take any risks whatsoever.

 

I also think that last part is a big reason why he didn't send him to some other household to be fostered like so many suggest. Aside from the fact that we don't know what exactly his promise to Lyanna entailed (it very well could have been her asking Ned to raise him, not just keep him safe), I think the fact that Jon's position is so precarious explains why Ned would want to keep him by his side and within the relative safety of Winterfell for as long as possible.

Edited June 22, 2015 by AshleyN

[nksarmi]

Yea when I first suggested that Catelyn shouldn't have been told about Jon, I wasn't just thinking of Robert. I was thinking of exactly what would have happened if she had known the truth when Ned died and she assumed Sansa and Arya were in the capital under Lannister rule.  Catelyn hurt Robb's command and the loyalty of his banner men when she let Jamie go on a wild scheme to get her daughter back (which was never going to work so she freed a valuable prisoner for no reason at all). 

 

This action could arguably be part of what led to the Red Wedding.  Don't get me wrong, I know that was also partly Robb's mistake by breaking his vow to Frey and marrying someone else.  But I don't think Roose would have betrayed Robb if he hadn't perceived him as being in a weakened state.  Roose just isn't the type to attack someone when they are at full strength (which was backed up with Stannis this season - he was willing to wall up in Winterfell and let the elements destroy Stannis until it was obvious Stannis' army was weak enough to attack) and Catelyn letting Jamie go definitely started a chain of events that weakened Robb as a commander and king.

 

So in my opinion, Catelyn demonstrated that she is rash and unable to properly think out the consequences of her actions on more than one occasion and as a result, Ned and Robb died.  There is no doubt in my mind (like zero, zilch, nada) that if Catelyn had known about Jon's real parentage - she would have blabbed everything in an effort to trade Jon for her daughters.  She likely would have only succeeded in getting more people killed (including Jon), but she definitely would have let the cat out of the bag if it meant trading Jon's life for Sansa and Ayra.

 

For this reason, I still say that Ned was 100% right in keeping the secret from his wife.  She simply could not be trusted.  If he was going to keep his deathbed promise to his sister, he had to keep the secret from everyone.  One person said that it was interesting that Ned finally promised Jon to tell him the truth once he knew Jon was going to the Wall.  I think part of the reason Ned never claimed Jon was that he was hoping Jon would follow in his Uncle Benjen's footsteps and take the black.  From what I understand, the Starks have been sending sons to the Wall for centuries - Ned would have considered this honorable for Jon (and likely would have been proud to serve with him if Geoffrey hadn't reversed that bargain). 

 

I think the reason Ned wanted Jon to take the black was because then he would have no claim to the Iron Throne and be no danger to anyone. It was probably hard for him not to claim as a Stark, but he must have believed it was in Jon's best interests in the long run. 

[Portia4844]

I find it beyond silly that Cat could grow to love Ned and appear to have forgiven his infidelity yet couldn't forgive a child who did nothing wrong.  It says something about her that she continued to view Jon as some scab being ripped off whenever she had to see him.  How long did she need to carry a grudge and how shallow was the love she felt for Ned or any forgiveness she extended to him if seeing Jon triggered all that anger and bitterness.   And what does it say about her character that she was fine with taking it out on a defenseless and innocent child?   

 

Ned was smart to keep it from her.  Even LF knew how easy Cat and her sister were to play.  He got them both to react and do what he wanted because they were both slightly crazy and acted without thinking about the consequences of their actions.   What kind of idiot takes a Lannister hostage when her husband and daughters are living with the Lannisters?  What would she have done to get her daughters back from them if she'd know who Jon really was?   

[Happy Harpy]

Nephew or not, Jon was still competition for her kids. She was never going to treat Jon with anything better then indifference.

You have moments with characters, and in my worst moments with Catelyn, I feel that this is true.

Sometimes, I wonder whether Jon being a bastard wasn't more of a problem for her than Jon being Ned's. But maybe this feeling owes a lot to my modern perception, since people using "family" in their motto (like the Tullys) are nowadays often, let's say it nicely, extremely conservative.

*Though I wonder if in some cases that might have actually helped matters. For someone like Littlefinger for example, the fact that it knocks "the honourable Ned Stark" down a peg and shows he's not infallible may have been why he didn't look to question it.

I love this idea! Mediocrity likes company, indeed, so it's a very likely explanation.

[Hecate7]

In retrospect I agree with those who wonder why Jon wasn't simply made to squire for some nobleman upon Ned being appointed as Hand. Houses Karstark, Manderly, and maybe even Blackwood all seem like they would have been fine candidates.

 

 

He didn't, for the same reason Ramsey Bolton didn't, and Gendry Stone didn't. He's a bastard. I think many great houses would have been insulted to be asked to foster him.

[Hecate7]

Jon Snow is probably part of the reason Ned never considered fostering the kids. They don't foster girls out, at all, though. Just boys, and just the ones who are considered important, like Ned and his brothers.

 

Making Cat commit treason with him, is worse than cheating on her, and Ned sensibly never considered doing either. He also never considered telling her. What if during the first conversation on the subject, she'd run screaming and turned him in? What if the silent treason tormented her so much that she decided to arrange a little accident for Jon Snow, so that it would never be found out? If she disliked the threat to her own kids from a bastard, how much might she dislike the threat of treason under her own roof?

 

It occurs to me that Lyssa Arryn is just Cat exaggerated. Enlarge the family pride and maternal protectiveness, the impulsiveness and hot-headedness and vengefulness, and you get Lyssa, who would definitely have flung Snow out the Moon door the first chance she got. Cat didn't have a Moon door but she did have that broken tower.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

What kind of idiot takes a Lannister hostage when her husband and daughters are living with the Lannisters? 

At that point, from the perspective of the Starks, Catelyn had two choices:

 

1)  Let Tyrion go, at which point he will presumably inform his family that the Starks are up to something.

2)  Arrest him, which will also let the Lannisters know, but you at least have a hostage.

 

It's not a great choice either way, but it's far from irrational.  Her first hope was simply that Tyrion wouldn't notice her at all, but he did.

[Happy Harpy]

It occurs to me that Lyssa Arryn is just Cat exaggerated. Enlarge the family pride and maternal protectiveness, the impulsiveness and hot-headedness and vengefulness, and you get Lyssa, who would definitely have flung Snow out the Moon door the first chance she got. Cat didn't have a Moon door but she did have that broken tower.

When I think of characters who got the short end of the stick on the TV show, Lysa is among the first I think about. She had the "second child syndrom", was already instable so I believe she would have ended up as a Bunny Boiler no matter what, and the Trouts were never the sharpest minds of the Great Houses anyway (all that imo). But when I think of a teenager forced to abort a child she wanted and then forced to mary an old geezer, I feel sick to my stomach. I don't absolve Lysa of what she did, she is responsible for her own foolishness. But I understand why she became that crazy, whereas on the show it's solely on nature. That's also why I don't weep over Jon Arryn and less over Holster "Momager" Tully.

K.Dickie did a wonderful work on the show with Lysa already, and while I know that there was no space to do every secondary or tertiary character's backstory, I can't help but regret what she would have done with Lysa's.

[Portia4844]

 

1)  Let Tyrion go, at which point he will presumably inform his family that the Starks are up to something.

2)  Arrest him, which will also let the Lannisters know, but you at least have a hostage.

 

 

The Starks were up to something?   There was no reason for Cat to sneak into King's Landing like she was some spy on a mission.  Her husband and daughters were there so she could have walked through the gates and visited with them openly.   Instead, she was all cloak and dagger and secret meetings as if all of them would be able to read her mind and know what she was really up to. 

 

Arrest him or let him go?  Did she suddenly forget that he wasn't in hiding and could have been tracked down at any time?  Did she think that Tyrion seeing her in that particular place would alert him to her spy mission and secret agenda?  Could she not have said she was on her way home from visiting Ned and the girls in King's Landing?   Was there fear that he'd think....damn...you left Bran all alone to run off to King's Landing....you must be up to something!!!!  

 

Cat's foolishness has no justification.  She acted foolish from the get-go and brought about all kinds of crap on her family....the family that she loved so much.   

[benteen]

He didn't, for the same reason Ramsey Bolton didn't, and Gendry Stone didn't. He's a bastard. I think many great houses would have been insulted to be asked to foster him.

 

The Starks are loved in the North and I think a number of Houses would have been more than willing to foster Jon Snow.  It's happened in the books before.  Larence Snow, the bastard of Hornwood, was fostered at Deepwood Motte, the home of House Glover.

[Maximum Taco]

He didn't, for the same reason Ramsey Bolton didn't, and Gendry Stone didn't. He's a bastard. I think many great houses would have been insulted to be asked to foster him.

 

Great Houses perhaps, but a lesser House (especially a lesser House under Ned's jurisdiction) would've likely done it happily cause it would be a favour done for the Warden of the North.

 

Asking him to be fostered at the Eyrie, or Highgarden was likely out of the question, asking for him to be fostered at White Harbor, Deepwood Motte, Last Hearth or Bear Island would've been the simple matter of asking.

 

Actually fostering his bastard would've been a great way to form a connection with Ned, since they knew he was fond of Jon Snow, he would've come to visit every so often (like Robert visited Edric Storm every year at Storm's End.) It would've actually been a good opportunity for a lesser House, who would probably have no chance of fostering a trueborn son of House Stark.

 

Gendry Waters (not Stone) and Ramsay Snow are completely different cases from Jon Snow. Jon was acknowledged by Ned as his bastard from the start, according to everyone he is the son of Ned Stark. Contrarily, Gendry was never acknowledged by Robert as his bastard, Robert likely didn't even know about him. The only bastard Robert ever acknowledged was Edric Strom, who was sent to foster with his uncle Renly at Storm's End. Ramsay likewise wasn't acknowledged by Roose, until after Domeric Bolton was killed, and by that time there was no reason to send him to foster anywhere.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Delta1212]

The Starks were up to something? There was no reason for Cat to sneak into King's Landing like she was some spy on a mission. Her husband and daughters were there so she could have walked through the gates and visited with them openly. Instead, she was all cloak and dagger and secret meetings as if all of them would be able to read her mind and know what she was really up to.

Arrest him or let him go? Did she suddenly forget that he wasn't in hiding and could have been tracked down at any time? Did she think that Tyrion seeing her in that particular place would alert him to her spy mission and secret agenda? Could she not have said she was on her way home from visiting Ned and the girls in King's Landing? Was there fear that he'd think....damn...you left Bran all alone to run off to King's Landing....you must be up to something!!!!

Cat's foolishness has no justification. She acted foolish from the get-go and brought about all kinds of crap on her family....the family that she loved so much.

On the other hand, Cat's taking of Tyrion was the first shot of a war that was about to break out anyway, regardless of what she did at the inn. Ned was already asking the questions (and being maneuvered toward the answer) that were going to result in him learning the truth, and Cersei was already trying to to get Robert killed.

Ned's story could have played out almost identically with or without Catelyn taking Tyrion. The one difference that could have made is giving her a hostage to trade for Ned and/or the girls before things spiraled too far out of control. So the real mistake there was letting Tyrion get away, rather than taking him in the first place. That storm was coming one way or another and he would have been a useful piece to have ahold of when it arrived.

Edited June 23, 2015 by Delta1212