Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[WearyTraveler]

Sansa is fond of needlepoint...

 

But, honestly, I don't think any other Stark kids will die.  Maybe I'm an optimist.

Edited February 27, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Hecate7]

Ooh, Weary Traveler, I never thought about that, but it does have something of the dark inevitability of a Greek tragedy when you put it that way.

[Hecate7]

Sansa's loss of Lady was certainly suggestive, but I also wonder if the show might not have been hinting something, when after Tyrion approaches Sansa after being beaten by Meryn Trant and asks if she wants out and she keeps to her "I am loyal to Joffrey' speech he says, "Lady Sansa you might survive us yet."

 

Also while I am quite confident that Arya survives to the last book in the series I'm not 100% sure she'll be alive at the end.  I remember this bit from the first book which seems like ominous foreshadowing...

 

 

Arya dying with Needle in her hand?!?  I'm not saying I want that but it could definitely happen at the end of her story arc-especially since Martin delights in breaking our hearts.

 

Well, I don't think he'll do it, but if he were going to, that would be the way he'd do it. But ask yourself, what is a fair price for guaranteeing that Arya lives? You know he's not gonna do it for free.

[Hecate7]

I believe Arya is the one most likely to die ("when the winter comes, the lonely wolf dies and the pack survives") just like Lyanna, whom Ned found dreadfully similar to Arya. Sansa is the one adapted to survive in a pack. Predictable as it is, I would be disappointed If Sansa didn't end as a major player of the Game of Thrones. She's my lead favourite to be on the Iron Throne in the end as the Queen who outshines Cersei. If the direwolves are meant to predict anything, Arya (Nymeria) is the one who should be dead and currently is surviving based on borrowed time.

 

Except that Arya is not the lone wolf. She has been under the protection of the Faceless Men since freeing Jaqen H'gar. In fact, she may have been under their watch even during her lessons with Syrio Forel, if some peoples' theories are correct.

 

Arya travels with an invisible pack of hundreds. She is not alone.

 

Sansa, otoh, IS alone, and that has been her problem all along. The Starks went extinct and she could not bear to be a Lannister. She wasn't accepted by the Arryns, and now she's alone with Littlefinger. He is not her pack. He is the one who stripped her of her pack. She may be traveling with him, but she is still alone.

[Advance35]

I honestly can't invision Arya and Sansa meeting again, I know GRRM said "they have issues to work out" but I didn't take that to mean they WOULD.   I thought the comment was rather abstract.

 

As for Sansa's survival, I seesaw.  She is in VERY dangerous waters with LF.   But at the same time, I've found Sansa's arc to be one of the most surprising and unpredictable in the whole series.   Even if you had told me at the end of ACOK that Sansa Stark would be married to Tyrion Lannister, a fugitive from the Iron Throne framed for Regicide by House Tyrell, living under a false identity as LF's bastard "Alayne Stone", having helped cover up the Murder of her Aunt I would have thought you were crazy.

 

I think GRRM has gone to a lot of trouble to tie Sansa to a NUMBER of different and prominent characters and locations throughout the story.  She's related by blood to 3 of the "Big 5", connected to the 4th by "Marriage", and time will tell if she will be at all involved in the fate of Danerys.   I'm personally hoping to see Sansa "making the 8" in terms of betrothals.   The Reach, The Vale, The Westerlands, The Iron Throne.  Not a bad start.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Advance35

[leoff]

Except that Arya is not the lone wolf. She has been under the protection of the Faceless Men since freeing Jaqen H'gar. In fact, she may have been under their watch even during her lessons with Syrio Forel, if some peoples' theories are correct.

 

Arya travels with an invisible pack of hundreds. She is not alone.

 

Sansa, otoh, IS alone, and that has been her problem all along. The Starks went extinct and she could not bear to be a Lannister. She wasn't accepted by the Arryns, and now she's alone with Littlefinger. He is not her pack. He is the one who stripped her of her pack. She may be traveling with him, but she is still alone.

 

Arya is not meant to be a faceless killer, she's gonna dump them eventually. Real wolves aside, humans are Arya's pack and she doesn't get along with them very well. Unless she changes that, she's in risk. I don't think GRRM wrote the "when the winter comes, the lonely wolf..." line by random chance. Kudos to GRRM for still write Arya as a sympathetic character, doesn't change the fact she's becoming a stone cold killer incapable of remorse. She might eventually reach a point of no return, no redemption. 

 

Sansa was written to be weak, futile, naive. Gradually she's becoming something else entirely. GRRM must have big plans for her. He knows she's never going to be popular as Arya, and by making her succeed in the end is his way to make a point, just like killing the good and noble Eddard so early was to make a point.

Edited February 27, 2015 by leoff

[Danny Franks]

Except that Arya is not the lone wolf. She has been under the protection of the Faceless Men since freeing Jaqen H'gar. In fact, she may have been under their watch even during her lessons with Syrio Forel, if some peoples' theories are correct.

 

Arya travels with an invisible pack of hundreds. She is not alone.

 

Sansa, otoh, IS alone, and that has been her problem all along. The Starks went extinct and she could not bear to be a Lannister. She wasn't accepted by the Arryns, and now she's alone with Littlefinger. He is not her pack. He is the one who stripped her of her pack. She may be traveling with him, but she is still alone.

 

Arya has repeatedly lost the people she has travelled with, and repeatedly ended up alone. Syrio, Yoren, Hot Pie, Gendry, Jaqen, Clegane, all people she's given some semblance of trust to, and all are gone. She is not truly with the Faceless Men, because they are trying to turn her into something else, and have no concern at all for her welfare. The idea that these people are her support group could not be further from my mind when I read her chapters in Braavos. They're using her as surely as the Lannisters were using Sansa.

 

And as leoff points out, Arya is not good at dealing with humans. Which is one of the reasons she has consistently been left on her own. Sansa is good at dealing with people who can be reasoned with, and she has shown that in the Eyrie. One of them is equipped to survive, and it's not Arya. She might fight more effectively, for a short while, but she'd eventually lose as most other people who have tried to fight did.

 

I'm reminded of an analogy that Robert Jordan was fond of, about the strongest trees being the ones that bend with the wind, while the stiffer, more rigid ones are blown down or torn up by their roots. Ned was too rigid, Robb was too rigid, and I think Arya is too, in her own way. Her implacable hatred and resolute certainty that her list of people should die could well be her undoing. Sansa has learned to bend, sway and adapt to the winds. She's the survivor. At the moment.

[Hecate7]

Arya is not meant to be a faceless killer, she's gonna dump them eventually. Real wolves aside, humans are Arya's pack and she doesn't get along with them very well. Unless she changes that, she's in risk. I don't think GRRM wrote the "when the winter comes, the lonely wolf..." line by random chance. Kudos to GRRM for still write Arya as a sympathetic character, doesn't change the fact she's becoming a stone cold killer incapable of remorse. She might eventually reach a point of no return, no redemption. 

 

Sansa was written to be weak, futile, naive. Gradually she's becoming something else entirely. GRRM must have big plans for her. He knows she's never going to be popular as Arya, and by making her succeed in the end is his way to make a point, just like killing the good and noble Eddard so early was to make a point.

 

I expect that Arya will become a Faceless Man, still believing in her own way that she is Arya Stark. She will not die. She will assimilate into her group. She might lose her individuality, she might become unredeemably dark, but she is not going to die. That GRRM has already told us.

 

I personally like Sansa better because she grows and learns, and because I find her more relatable. But being surrounded by people you have to placate, people who are going to exploit, victimize, and abuse you at the drop of a hat, people you have to kiss up to at all costs, is NOT the same thing as having someone in your corner, or having a support group. And I'm not sure Sansa has much in the way of survival skills even now.

 

No, Arya doesn't have what we think of as a support system, but at every turn in the story she has had someone in her corner, someone ready to kill to make sure she stayed safe. Syrio, Yoren, Gendry, The Hound...and now the Kindly Man. They do die eventually in her service, for the most part, but the next disposable guardian comes along fast. Arya doesn't have it in her to survive at court, but she's done just fine surviving in the weird places she's landed. Her journey and Sansa's are opposites for a reason.

 

I wonder how long Arya's little list will be, by the end of the books? Of course most of the people on it will already be dead by other causes. Funny how she watched, and was even in, that whole weird play about the Imp, and never even thought about Sansa, even though there was a character in the play based on Sansa. Funny how she never even made the connection, because she was so busy being an assassin. Never too busy, though, to pursue her list.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Hecate7

[Winnief]

I'm reminded of an analogy that Robert Jordan was fond of, about the strongest trees being the ones that bend with the wind, while the stiffer, more rigid ones are blown down or torn up by their roots. Ned was too rigid, Robb was too rigid, and I think Arya is too, in her own way. Her implacable hatred and resolute certainty that her list of people should die could well be her undoing. Sansa has learned to bend, sway and adapt to the winds. She's the survivor. At the moment.

 

 

And it's worth noting that Martin takes a cautionary attitude towards characters who are too focused on vengeance like Lady Stoneheart, and the tragic end of Oberyn Martell, (a tragedy that is likely to continue with the Sand Snakes and whatever the hell happens there.)  And that whole riff about the Blackwood/Bracken feud sure seemed to be foreshadowing that at some point some surviving Starks are going to have make peace/call a truce with someone from camp Lannister, (most likely Jaime.)  And of the surviving Stark children the one most likely to do that is Sansa. 

[Hecate7]

LF is unlikely to let Sansa do that. Jaime's likely to be the last Lannister standing, if he's not dead already. (I don't think he is, but a lot of people do).

[benteen]

My thought is that Arya will become like a wandering King's Justice at the end, traveling from place to place to meet out justice (probably as she sees fit).

[Winnief]

 

Today. 9:57 pm

 

My thought is that Arya will become like a wandering King's Justice at the end, traveling from place to place to meet out justice (probably as she sees fit).

Frankly that's the ending for her I'd like most.  (Or possibly Arya as Master of Whispers.) She's not going to be a ruler, a Great Lady, and she has no inclination towards domesticity, like Sansa who yearns for a family.  That's not a bad thing nor is it a good thing; it's just the way it is.  But what you described would best suit her temperament AND make use of her...unique skill set.

[benteen]

I agree, it seems the life she's destined to live.  Maybe one day she will settle down but it won't be until she gets whatever is inside of her out of her system...if she ever does.

[Hecate7]

Sansa has it in her to be a Master of Whispers. Arya not so much. Arya is great as an assassin. She kills people. That's her skillset. She does not network, or mastermind, or influence or persuade those in power. She kills people. She does it very well and enjoys it very much.

 

What initially held Sansa back was her desire to be loved by someone, and liked by everyone. But she has by degrees lost that wish for the most part. I think she still wants Littlefinger's approval, or at least realizes that she needs it.

[jjjmoss]

Hmm..."'The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.'
'I will remember, Your Grace,' said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me."

 

I wonder where she would fall on the spectrum now if she were to be the queen. Does she have the ability to make people fear her?

Edited March 1, 2015 by jjjmoss

[Meredith Quill]

Hmm..."'The only way to keep your people loyal is to make certain they fear you more than they do the enemy.'

'I will remember, Your Grace,' said Sansa, though she had always heard that love was a surer route to the people's loyalty than fear. If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me."

 

I wonder where she would fall on the spectrum now if she were to be the queen. Does she have the ability to make people fear her?

 

Not, yet... ;)

[Advance35]

I wonder where she would fall on the spectrum now if she were to be the queen. Does she have the ability to make people fear her?

 

I don't think she does.   Certainly nobody in the arena of swords and battle axes is going to be afraid of Sansa Stark, in terms of Courtly power, I don't think anyone who's dealt with her up to this point will be either (House Lannister, Tyrells and such) I think she would need to initiate some fancy manuevering to be considered a power player in Court.   I think the fact that she is underestimated could work in her favor though.   LF told her it's the hidden dagger that is the most dangerous.

 

And it's worth noting that Martin takes a cautionary attitude towards characters who are too focused on vengeance like Lady Stoneheart, and the tragic end of Oberyn Martell, (a tragedy that is likely to continue with the Sand Snakes and whatever the hell happens there.)  And that whole riff about the Blackwood/Bracken feud sure seemed to be foreshadowing that at some point some surviving Starks are going to have make peace/call a truce with someone from camp Lannister, (most likely Jaime.)  And of the surviving Stark children the one most likely to do that is Sansa.

\

 

I don't know that it's Sansa either.   She's not CONSUMED by the idea of vengeance but it's not something I think she'd turn away from.   An opportunity would need to present itself and if it did, I don't think she'd hesistate.   She wouldn't seek it out but I don't think she'll ever forgive House Lannister for all that's happened.   If she were going to make a tentative truce it MIGHT be with Tyrion but she has a cold regard for him as well.   In when she makes it to the Vale in ASOS and in AFFC it's clear that Tyrion's life means very little to her.  That's a Lannister she doesn't hate and I think that's how she'll regard the House as a whole.

 

I just don't think Sansa IS super forgiving or ESPECIALLY merciful Post-Red Wedding.   She has know problem with Marrillion's imprisonment and pending suicide beyond the singing keeping her up because the entire castle can here, she doesn't seem overly bothered by Tyrion's imprisonment and possible execution, her gut instinct for unloading the cursed Harrenhall is to give it to Walder Frey (lol), and I think the show illustrated the Sansa characters appetite for revenge.

 

As always I reserve the right to be wrong (if the book ever gets here).

[WearyTraveler]

So far in the books, I don't think Sansa is a threat to anybody, but she certainly seems to be learning quite a lot from LF while either losing or temporarily shutting off empathy and compassion.  During the battle of Blackwater, Sansa comforted all the other ladies and prayed with them, even though these were the same ladies that presumably watched Joffrey humilliate her in court and did nothing to help her.  Her internal monologue is quite interesting during that battle.  She's scared too, but she's the one keeping calm and she has compassion for the fear the other ladies are experiencing.

 

Fast forward to her latest chapters and she's shunning and actively despising Sweet Robin.  Not that the child is any kind of jewel, mind you.  He's definitely creepy, moody and egotistical, but a lot of that is the result of Lisa's influence.  Sansa doesn't seem to feel an ounce of compassion for Sweet Robin, or at the very least, she's pushing that down.  I'm not saying she should give in to Robin's demands, but her internal monologue never addresses the fact that he is still a child, innocent of many things, and very sick.  Nor does she mind that LF seems to be going against medical advise and overdosing him.

 

What we last saw on the show might be an indication of the evolution of the character in TWOW.  I think it's quite possible for Sansa, under LF's tutelage, to become a scheming, treacherous player  who might follow not only LF's teachings, but also Cersei's suggestions to use her body as a tool.  I think Sansa's controversial chapter will be her having consensual sex with LF and becoming her partner in the game too, while secretly plotting to kill him when the time is right.

 

In a way, I think all the surviving Stark children need saving.  In the first books they needed to be saved physically:  Arya from the ravages of the war-torn Riverlands, Rickon and Bran from Theon and the Boltons, Sansa from Joffrey's perverted attacks, and Jon from the Wildlings and other assorted mythical creatures North of the Wall.  In the latter books, the Stark children achieved physical safety but it's their souls that are compromised now.  Rickon is probably much more of a savage, Arya is a detached murderer for hire, and Sansa is (going by the hints on the show) becoming an unscrupulous player.  Jon needs saving from death itself.

 

I'm certainly looking forward to the reveals that the show is bound to make before the rest of the books are published.  I think many things are bound to be different, but certain major arcs and character traits, particularly for the Stark children, who I think are the main protagonists (we started with them, after all), will probably stay the same, if not verbatim, at least in essence. 

[Hecate7]

Sweet Robin is more than just moody and egotistical. He is mentally deficient. He likes to hear about how strong he is. Seriously--Bran at his age would have known better. And that is not just Lyssa's influence, it's his own inability to think or reason. Yes, he's a sick child. But he's a sick child who rules the Vale and can order summary executions, and he has a mental age of 3. Not a good combination. It's hard to empathize with or care about a person like that.

[SeanC]

Fast forward to her latest chapters and she's shunning and actively despising Sweet Robin.  Not that the child is any kind of jewel, mind you.  He's definitely creepy, moody and egotistical, but a lot of that is the result of Lisa's influence.  Sansa doesn't seem to feel an ounce of compassion for Sweet Robin, or at the very least, she's pushing that down.  I'm not saying she should give in to Robin's demands, but her internal monologue never addresses the fact that he is still a child, innocent of many things, and very sick.  Nor does she mind that LF seems to be going against medical advise and overdosing him.

 

What we last saw on the show might be an indication of the evolution of the character in TWOW.  I think it's quite possible for Sansa, under LF's tutelage, to become a scheming, treacherous player  who might follow not only LF's teachings, but also Cersei's suggestions to use her body as a tool.  I think Sansa's controversial chapter will be her having consensual sex with LF and becoming her partner in the game too, while secretly plotting to kill him when the time is right. 

Sansa feels pity for Robert, but I don't think it's terribly unusual that she's exhausted by having to look after him all the time.

 

Elio and Linda already said that "controversial chapter" has nothing to do with anything we've seen on the show.  It's a character point.  And, in any event, it makes no sense for Sansa to be having sex with Littlefinger; there's no advantage to her in it, and Littlefinger's own plans require her continued virginity.

[Winnief]

Some new tidbits...

 

http://watchersonthewall.com/interview-roundup-john-bradley-jonathan-pryce/

[ElizaD]

While initially being quite sceptical about “sword and sorcery” shows, Pryce has had a change of heart after his experiences on the Thrones sets. He also mentioned that a certain (male) actor hadn’t read the Season 5 scripts, and was unhappy upon discovering his character’s death.

 

Robb Stark may be dead and gone, but Richard Madden is still talking enthusiastically about Game of Thrones. Speaking with Zap2it, the Scotsman claimed that he knows “of a death that’s going to happen in Season 5 that [we’re] not gong to see coming.” Also according to him, Kit Harington goes out of his way to spoil future plot points of the show for his friend “all the fucking time”, continuing the habit he began during filming of Season 4.

 

Someone in the comments said that Glover knows how Pycelle dies so it's not him. The High Septon might have scenes with Loras and Lancel, whether they can be killed depends on TWOW. Trant will almost certainly die on the show and he's going to be in the background of early Cersei/Septon scenes.

 

So does Jon die in 5x10? It's the most likely shock that Kit would know about and which would be big even to non-readers.

[SeanC]

I imagine the one Madden is talking about is Jon.

[Winnief]

I'm sure Jon *does* die on the show...the real question is whether D&D will leave people guessing for ten months or actually show him 'resurrected' somehow probably via Mel.

[Avaleigh]

The Unsullied should have to wait for something and Jon's resurrection or whatever it ends up being seems like a good thing for them to wait for. 

[Winnief]

The Unsullied should have to wait for something and Jon's resurrection or whatever it ends up being seems like a good thing for them to wait for.

 

 

For ten whole months?!?

Besides they'll also have Cersei's trial to wait for, ST's hinted that Sansa's storyline ends on a ambiguous note, there could be the aftermath of Mereen, etc. etc.  There'll be cliffhangers a plenty for Sullied and Unsullied alike this season.

[charis]

The problem, I think, with turning Jon's death into a cliffhanger is that you lose the suspense once the actor is confirmed for the next season. I think they could have a lot of fun with making the Unsullied wait and speculate and squirm, but logistically it's not easy.

 

OTOH, they can possibly bring Jon back in such a way that leaves ambiguity and questions about whether he's still truly Jon or whether something went awry, or something of the sort. That still invites speculation and squirming and "OMG WAT" sorts of moments without forcing them to hide the fact that Kit Harrington is going to still be around the next season.

[SeanC]

Most Unsullied don't follow filming news, so I think the risks posed in terms of spoilers are a bit overstated.  In any event, that doesn't stop television shows from doing cliffhangers of that nature.

[charis]

Fair distinction -- I meant more the non-readers who do follow some news for a show, not the full-blinders-on Unsullied.

(Also, I can use English, I swear. But apparently I need more coffee first.)

Edited March 4, 2015 by charis

[Maximum Taco]

The problem, I think, with turning Jon's death into a cliffhanger is that you lose the suspense once the actor is confirmed for the next season. I think they could have a lot of fun with making the Unsullied wait and speculate and squirm, but logistically it's not easy.

 

OTOH, they can possibly bring Jon back in such a way that leaves ambiguity and questions about whether he's still truly Jon or whether something went awry, or something of the sort. That still invites speculation and squirming and "OMG WAT" sorts of moments without forcing them to hide the fact that Kit Harrington is going to still be around the next season.

 

You don't really lose the suspense. 

 

Frequently when a GoT actor dies, they do actually make an appearence in the next episode as a corpse (or severed head) and thusly can still make the opening credits. So even if he's confirmed for the next season, it doesn't necessarily mean he will be alive, there could be a funeral pyre sequence in episode 1 of the next season.

 

But the problem would be in keeping Harrington on contract. If they are going to permanently kill him next season, it makes more sense to wrap up all his appearences next season and then not have to pay him for the following season.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Hecate7]

For ten whole months?!?

Besides they'll also have Cersei's trial to wait for, ST's hinted that Sansa's storyline ends on a ambiguous note, there could be the aftermath of Mereen, etc. etc.  There'll be cliffhangers a plenty for Sullied and Unsullied alike this season.

These are the same people who expect the rest of the world "not to spoil" them for five whole years! Ten, in some cases.Ten months is nothing.

[Holmbo]

You don't really lose the suspense. 

 

Frequently when a GoT actor dies, they do actually make an appearence in the next episode as a corpse (or severed head) and thusly can still make the opening credits. So even if he's confirmed for the next season, it doesn't necessarily mean he will be alive, there could be a funeral pyre sequence in episode 1 of the next season.

 

I think reporters will quiet easily determine if Kit Harrington is filming and entire season or if he'll just be a corpse for an episode. So it will still be spoiled.

By the way I just thought of a possibility. What if Jon was killed and his mind went into Ghost and then at the same time white walkers attacked the wall and came through and all who where dead became reanimated as others. Then much later his mind went back into his body (either by the help of Melisandre or for some other reason). I guess undead bodies might be to damaged to be able to be alive again later. So it's probably not very likely.

[Hecate7]

It would be just like GRRM to give us R+L=J, but then kill the character off so that it didn't matter who his parents were anyway. It would be very bad writing, to invest that much time and effort, that much backstory, development, and mystery on him, especially considering that of the Starks, only he and Sansa are really left. Yes, Arya exists but she's an assassin, and needle notwithstanding, she's in the Faceless Men. Even if she leaves them, her story is about assassinating people and assuming the next disguise. Bran exists but he's in a tree. I actually don't think Rickon really exists anymore, but even if he does, who is ever going to believe him? By the time he comes back he'll look like Tormund Giantsbane, IF he comes back. Nobody's going to look at him and go, "oh, wow, that must be Rickon Stark." Even if he returns in the company of a giant black wolf, or wearing an immense black wolf-skin cloak. Who's still alive that would know him? And how will they recognize him once he's singing baritone?

[SeanC]

It would be just like GRRM to give us R+L=J, but then kill the character off so that it didn't matter who his parents were anyway. 

No, it wouldn't.  GRRM doesn't build up characters and a books-long mystery for no reason.

[Hecate7]

I hope not, Sean. I would hate that. I would consider it in fact to be extremely bad storytelling. And this has up to this point been a gripping, if upsetting tale.

[Constantinople]

I'm not going to worry about it.

 

Besides, in the books didn't Yoren say something about not being able to tell the difference between dead and alive North of the Wall anyway?

[Avaleigh]

I actually don't think Rickon really exists anymore, but even if he does, who is ever going to believe him?

 

 

He'll probably look like a redheaded version of Ned. As for who will be around to remember--Sansa is the obvious choice but I'd also add Jon, Theon, Jeyne Poole, maybe even Benjen. If Theon's word is good enough for Stannis... I'd say a direwolf at his side is pretty convincing too in the way that the presence of a dragon is helpful to a Targaryen. (Not as powerful obviously but you know what I mean.)

 

I don't have any doubt that Jon will return. I'm not in suspense over whether or not he'll come back or be kept alive, I'm in suspense as to how GRRM will go about it. I think there are a lot of good theories and I'm not sold on any one in particular.

[Danny Franks]

I'd much rather Jon just didn't die at all, and slowly recovered from his wounds. One thing I've liked about ASOIAF, despite all its flaws, is that magic is a minor part of the story. Sure, it's present and it has an effect on events, but it doesn't rule events. Melisandre using magic to bring Jon back from the dead would be too big a magical event to feel appropriate in that world.

 

Him becoming the obvious, prophesied leader as he rises from the ashes seems incredibly cheesy and just the sort of thing that GRRM's acolytes claim he would never write.

 

And as I've said before, I'm fine with prophecies being figurative rather than literal.

 

But as for him really genuinely being dead? Come off it. GRRM has spent close to a 1000 pages writing Jon's story, if it has no pay off other than him being murdered by a group of rebellious Nights Watch brothers, then it's the most misguided, wasted piece of writing ever. Jon is the hero, and no matter how much GRRM might try to live up to 'anyone could die', I'm not sure even he could change the series that much as to write the hero out of it.

[Winnief]

If Theon's word is good enough for Stannis... I'd say a direwolf at his side is pretty convincing too in the way that the presence of a dragon is helpful to a Targaryen. (Not as powerful obviously but you know what I mean.)

 

Manderly himself said they wanted the Dire Wolf too, to prove Rickon's identity so I think that would be enough for the Northerners.  (Though the boy's Tully features won't hurt either since everyone knows who his mother was.)

I'd much rather Jon just didn't die at all, and slowly recovered from his wounds. One thing I've liked about ASOIAF, despite all its flaws, is that magic is a minor part of the story. Sure, it's present and it has an effect on events, but it doesn't rule events. Melisandre using magic to bring Jon back from the dead would be too big a magical event to feel appropriate in that world.

 

Him becoming the obvious, prophesied leader as he rises from the ashes seems incredibly cheesy and just the sort of thing that GRRM's acolytes claim he would never write.

 

And as I've said before, I'm fine with prophecies being figurative rather than literal.

 

Agreed, but I don't know how it's gonna go down.  I'd like to see a sequence where Jon seems to hover between life and death from his injuries but something then tips the balance his way just like Bran woke up from the coma after Lady died.  I liked that, because while there was an element of magic to it, it was subtle and not over the top.  Unfortunately, it also gives me a bad feeling that someone else  might die to bring back Jon, (if for instance Ghost isn't quite enough to do the job,) because the series has made clear over and over again is that blood magic is one thing that really works.  Possible candidates for sacrifice include Theon, (which might actually be something he'd agree to at this point,) Asha, and most troublingly Shireen.

[Constantinople]

I'd much rather Jon just didn't die at all, and slowly recovered from his wounds. One thing I've liked about ASOIAF, despite all its flaws, is that magic is a minor part of the story. Sure, it's present and it has an effect on events, but it doesn't rule events. Melisandre using magic to bring Jon back from the dead would be too big a magical event to feel appropriate in that world.

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

To put it another way, what will actually happen with Jon, and what Melisandre will claim about it, aren't necessarily the same thing.

[Maximum Taco]

I actually don't think Rickon really exists anymore, but even if he does, who is ever going to believe him? By the time he comes back he'll look like Tormund Giantsbane, IF he comes back. Nobody's going to look at him and go, "oh, wow, that must be Rickon Stark." Even if he returns in the company of a giant black wolf, or wearing an immense black wolf-skin cloak. Who's still alive that would know him? And how will they recognize him once he's singing baritone?

 

I don't think you can downplay the importance of the wolf. Direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall for 200 years, the only known species being the ones in the company of the Stark children. Its not like they are easy to just drum up and tame. Robb was well known to fight with a giant wolf by his side, so not only is it the Stark sigil, but Robb has created a legend around them as well.

 

If Rickon (or another boy who looks like Rickon, or even another boy with Tully colouring) surfaces with a giant black wolf at his side it's going to make a pretty strong case for him among the Northeners. The smallfolk want a story, and that's a pretty good one.

 

As for the nobility, with all the ill will going towards the Boltons (their only true allies seem to be the Freys), the Northeners will probably be eager to latch onto anything else, a son of Ned Stark is a nice life line to grab onto. So it's not like the Boltons are creating a stable rule with happy subordinates. The Northern lords will want to believe Rickon is the real deal.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[kcbuckeye2]

I've not see this speculated anywhere else, but if the R+L=J theory is correct, could the following scenario make sense?

After the Night Watch kills Jon, they would likely burn the body so as to prevent him coming back to life as a wight.  IF Jon is truly a Targaryen, couldn't the fire possibly heal him?  I imagine a scene where the funeral pyre is burning, and all of a sudden Jon gets up and walks out, similar to how Dany just walked out of the flames with the newly hatched dragons.  Melisandre would lose her mind explaining to everyone how she saw the prophesy, and Jon would be alive again, although with quite a bit less hair.

 

Just a thought.

[BlackberryJam]

Dany didn't lose her hair when she got torched ;)

 

Jon lives.  Not sure how and not sure I care, but he lives. We'll watch him die in Episode 9 then in Episode 10, someone will walk in a room and he'll be standing there, or we'll see his back and then he turns around ALIVE, but maybe with bright blue eyes or something.

[Constantinople]

Jon lives.  Not sure how and not sure I care, but he lives. We'll watch him die in Episode 9 then in Episode 10, someone will walk in a room and he'll be standing there, or we'll see his back and then he turns around ALIVE, but maybe with bright blue eyes or something.

 

Melisandre wakes-up in bed one day and senses something amiss.  She walks to the bathroom and opens the door to the shower.

 

Jon turns around and says "Morning"

[Maximum Taco]

I've not see this speculated anywhere else, but if the R+L=J theory is correct, could the following scenario make sense?

After the Night Watch kills Jon, they would likely burn the body so as to prevent him coming back to life as a wight.  IF Jon is truly a Targaryen, couldn't the fire possibly heal him?  I imagine a scene where the funeral pyre is burning, and all of a sudden Jon gets up and walks out, similar to how Dany just walked out of the flames with the newly hatched dragons.  Melisandre would lose her mind explaining to everyone how she saw the prophesy, and Jon would be alive again, although with quite a bit less hair.

 

Just a thought.

 

Targaryens aren't immune to or healed by fire. What happened to Dany is not a normal property of a Targaryen (in the books anyway.)

 

First off fire has never healed anybody in the series. Dany was unharmed by the fire, but it did not heal her. Some Targaryens are also reported to have died by fire, notably Aegon V and Prince Duncan the Small who died in a fire at Summerhall, and Aerion Brightflame who died drinking wildfire (it is possible this just poisoned him instead of actually setting him ablaze though.)

 

Secondly, GRRM has already said that what happened to Dany was a matter of circumstance and magic (specifically the hatching of the eggs), not an attribute she always has. If she jumped into a fire now or at any time before or after the eggs hatched, she'd burn the same as anybody else. It was a one time deal, linked to the magic released when the eggs hatched, she (and every other Targaryen) are not immune to fire under normal circumstances. This is evidenced by the fact that she does receive burns from Drogon's flames in ADwD. There may however be some degree of heat resistance (e.g. Dany likes to take baths that some say are too hot. She might get minor burns or blisters from a fire that could kill or maim a non Targaryen etc.) but it is not a full immunity, and it definitely does not heal.

 

Thirdly we've seen Jon burned himself when he killed the Wight in Mormont's chambers. So even if he is a Targaryen (which seems pretty likely) he absolutely does not have a fire immunity.

 

So unless Jon's pyre also results in the hatching of dragons, it will be just a fire, and he will burn the same as anybody else.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I've not see this speculated anywhere else, but if the R+L=J theory is correct, could the following scenario make sense?

After the Night Watch kills Jon, they would likely burn the body so as to prevent him coming back to life as a wight.  IF Jon is truly a Targaryen, couldn't the fire possibly heal him?  I imagine a scene where the funeral pyre is burning, and all of a sudden Jon gets up and walks out, similar to how Dany just walked out of the flames with the newly hatched dragons.  Melisandre would lose her mind explaining to everyone how she saw the prophesy, and Jon would be alive again, although with quite a bit less hair.

 

Just a thought.

I kind of think you're on to something. I don't know about the fire healing him exactly but I like the idea of a funeral pyre for Jon having an unexpected side effect so to speak because of the king's blood in Jon's body. Hmm. I'm going to have to think on this one for a bit. 

[charis]

Targaryens aren't immune to or healed by fire. What happened to Dany is not a normal property of a Targaryen (in the books anyway.)

 

*snip*

 

Secondly, GRRM has already said that what happened to Dany was a matter of circumstance and magic (specifically the hatching of the eggs), not an attribute she always has. If she jumped into a fire now or at any time before or after the eggs hatched, she'd burn the same as anybody else. It was a one time deal, linked to the magic released when the eggs hatched, she (and every other Targaryen) are not immune to fire under normal circumstances. This is evidenced by the fact that she does receive burns from Drogon's flames in ADwD. There may however be some degree of heat resistance (e.g. Dany likes to take baths that some say are too hot. She might get minor burns or blisters from a fire that could kill or maim a non Targaryen etc.) but it is not a full immunity, and it definitely does not heal.

 

The show's definitely taken liberties there -- I vaguely remember it even being explicitly stated that they had. Not saying it means things would be different for all Targaryens, but there isn't the same "absolutely not" groundwork that there is in the books.

[Constantinople]

Targaryens aren't immune to or healed by fire. What happened to Dany is not a normal property of a Targaryen (in the books anyway.)

 

Secondly, GRRM has already said that what happened to Dany was a matter of circumstance and magic (specifically the hatching of the eggs), not an attribute she always has. If she jumped into a fire now or at any time before or after the eggs hatched, she'd burn the same as anybody else. It was a one time deal, linked to the magic released when the eggs hatched, she (and every other Targaryen) are not immune to fire under normal circumstances. This is evidenced by the fact that she does receive burns from Drogon's flames in ADwD. There may however be some degree of heat resistance (e.g. Dany likes to take baths that some say are too hot. She might get minor burns or blisters from a fire that could kill or maim a non Targaryen etc.) but it is not a full immunity, and it definitely does not heal.

But isn't there at least something about her, and perhaps other but not necessarily all Targaryens -- hence "I am the dragon" -- that prevented her from burning to death when the eggs hatched?

After all, Mirri Maz WhatsHerFace went up like a human torch.

[Maximum Taco]

 

But isn't there at least something about her, and perhaps other but not necessarily all Targaryens -- hence "I am the dragon" -- that prevented her from burning to death when the eggs hatched?

After all, Mirri Maz WhatsHerFace went up like a human torch.

 

Mirri Maz Duur did go up like a human torch. But she was also bound to the pyre before it started burning. In fact Mirri died before the eggs could hatch ("Only death can pay for life") Dany didn't walk in until after the eggs started hatching.

 

So it could be a combination of her Targaryen blood and the eggs hatching. Or it could just be that she entered the fire at the right time, who knows? All that we know for sure is that she is not immune to fire all by herself. She needed the eggs to hatch or she would've died in the fire. And if she wants to survive another fire she'll need another source of magic.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

Mirri Maz Duur did go up like a human torch. But she was also bound to the pyre before it started burning. In fact Mirri died before the eggs could hatch ("Only death can pay for life") Dany didn't walk in until after the eggs started hatching.

 

So it could be a combination of her Targaryen blood and the eggs hatching. Or it could just be that she entered the fire at the right time, who knows? All that we know for sure is that she is not immune to fire all by herself. She needed the eggs to hatch or she would've died in the fire. And if she wants to survive another fire she'll need another source of magic.

Thanks.

In the show, Daenerys walked into the fire while MMD was still screaming, and there were no burn marks on Daenerys the following morning (but then, D is naked the following morning, but somehow her dress doesn't catch fire while she's walking through the flames).

To be fair, it would have been difficult to convey this as a one-time thing in the show at the time without some clunky exposition. Perhaps Tyrion wil clear things up sometime this season (I thought in one of the books he said that when he was young, he read any book about dragons that he could get his hands on).

Still, I wouldn't be surprised if she had some heat resistance, as you indicated in your prior post. It would be a useful trait in a dragon rider.