Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Pete Martell]

The way Sophie says it, my first thought was also that she kills Robin, either that or Littlefinger kills him and she has to go along with the coverup. 

 

I wonder if the show is going to avoid having Dany ride away on Drogon and just have Drogon swoop in and "flame on" and in the carnage, she flees Meereen. I also wonder if she's going to take Missandei and Greyworm and Barristan with her, or if some of them will just be killed off. I'm not sure the show will have all that much interest in showing them in Meereen and showing the fighting there if none of the major characters are around.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Winnief]

My guess is Dany will actually stay in Mereen for the battle and in the aftermath will start making plans, (or Tyrion will start talking her into) making tracks for Westeros.

 

They'll skip the whole Dothraki sea journey of discovery altogether.

 

Now I'm quite sure that at least *some* characters in Essos will die during the Battle of Mereen-in fact expect for Dany and Tyrion they're all fair game.  Your guess is as good as mine as to who (again excepting Dany and Tyrion for obvious reasons) will be left standing.

[Holmbo]

I agree that her time in the dothraki sea could probably be skipped but I think that her riding on drogon would have to be included somehow. It seems like an important plotpoint for her. Though we can't know for sure until we see where her story is going with that I guess.

[Advance35]

I just don't like the idea of pigeon holing a writer.   As distasteful as it is LF's character where Sansa is concerned, is very much capable of the act.    Maybe they'll be more coercion.     I think they've certainly softened that aspect of Sansa's ordeal but the fact is that Sansa has faced some truly harrowing moments during the course of her story.  

 

They neutered her scene with the Hound during the Battle of Blackwater, to the character's detriment I might add, since the unsullied thought she was an utter moron for not going with him.   Her continued interactions with Dontos were nixed, he was frequently inappropriate in the books and you could tell Sansa was uncomfortable dealing with him but he was her best chance so she carried on.    In addition to dealing with Lysa's crazy she had to contend with Marillion attempting to force himself on her and continued unwanted advances until the scene in the main hall.

 

I don't think it's GRRM's attempt at being gritty, I think he's being true to the world he's built and based his story on.   Having defended him IF he goes there, I admit I hope he doesn't because I am fond of the Sansa character BUT I certainly hope she doesn't murder a child as I would find that equally if not more repellant.

 

Sansa is someone with no power who is surrounded by people WITH power.   And just about all want to press their advantage in different ways.   Even the Tyrells in their own way.

[loki567]

It's odd to think that Sansa being raped would be a bigger trigger point for some people than her killing a child. I guess what it comes down to is that a constant use of rape calls into question the writers' intent, agenda, and world-view they're trying to promote. Especially if you get a feeling that D&D are trying to titilate with those scenes (for example, Dany's scene in episode two with Drogo or Joffrey brutalizing Ros and the other prostitute.) I don't think anyone would accuse D&D of wanting to see children killed, but them being sexist? With multiple instances of adding rape scenes, and sexposition mainly involving women? Yeah. 

[Hecate7]

Ok, here's the thing. Harry the Heir has several illegitimate children. Where do the mothers live? It's been months since his tourney--what's he been up to? It would not surprise me if he used to travel around pretending to be a minstrel,because nobles doing just that is a device in folk songs, Shakespeare, classical literature, and of course, in history. It's a great way to find out what the people really think of you. All the Henrys seem to have done something like it at least once. He's a man and he can go where he wants and do what he wants--he's not a child enrolled in school with a curfew. His aunt might know exactly where he is, just not what he's wearing and doing while he's there.

 

Suppose there is no longer a Harry the Heir for whatever reason--injuries from the Tourney, weird disease, jealous sweetheart using poison, or disguise visit gone horribly wrong.....or suppose Harry is already married? Sweetrobin is dying. In order to remain Lord Protector, Baelisch needs to either be the guardian of the next heir to the Vale, or the husband of its current ruler. He's really only got one real ticket for that, and if he can't wed her to Harry, he'll have to bump off Harry and use Sansa in some other way. I suspect that's been his plan all along.

 

Which would be worse, marrying Sansa to Sweetrobin and forcing her to let a child impregnate her, marrying her to Sweetrobin and getting her to force a child to impregnate her, or raping her and pretending it's the late Sweetrobin's child? Because one of those things is apt to happen soon. Sweetrobin does not have much longer to live. I suspect Baelish is poisoning him. There's a plot in place that makes little sense with the info we have, but

Edited December 13, 2014 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Which would be worse, marrying Sansa to Sweetrobin and forcing her to let a child impregnate her, marrying her to Sweetrobin and getting her to force a child to impregnate her, or raping her and pretending it's the late Sweetrobin's child? Because one of those things is apt to happen soon. Sweetrobin does not have much longer to live. I suspect Baelish is poisoning him. There's a plot in place that makes little sense with the info we have, but

Robert Arryn is eight years old.  He is physically incapable of fathering a child, or being thought to have done so.

[Hecate7]

SeanC, normally I'd agree with you. But there is a such thing as precocious puberty, and there have been boys who sired children at 9 or 10, gross as that sounds. I agree it would be hard to convince people, except by lining up eyewitnesses to say they saw the conception, and/or buying off a maester to issue his expert testimony, and, of course, making sure Sansa swears it. 

 

But it would be in keeping with Robin's story so far, for him to sire a child at a shockingly young age, because he has not been able to learn the real boundaries between himself and other people. He asked Sansa if she'd be his mother now, and Sansa said yes. We may find out that this involved more than just breast-feeding on Lysa's part.

 

Putting the words "controversial" in front of Sansa's name, means whatever it is has to be weirder than anything that's already happened. You know what's NOT controversial? Attractive young woman marries age-appropriate young man, and has consensual conjugal relations. So we can safely rule out that development. If it's not weirder than the marriage to Tyrion or the quasi-courtship with the Hound or the godawful marriage to Joffrey, it's probably not controversial enough.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Again, Elio only said that some might find it controversial, and he didn't say it was more controversial than any of the other things you list.

[Hecate7]

Again, Elio only said that some might find it controversial, and he didn't say it was more controversial than any of the other things you list.

 

Ah. I was assuming he meant it might be controversial to people watching or reading Game of Thrones, and that it would be controversial compared with things which have already happened to Sansa.

 

Fulfilling existing expectations, (ie, Harry the Heir), is not at all controversial. In fact there is absolutely nothing controversial at all about that match. It's in line with social expectations then and now, and in line with audience expectations, since that's exactly the intent Baelish has declared. So, I don't think that's at all what is going to happen. As usual, Littlefinger has a different plan. Just like when he made Catelyn think he planned to help Ned, and showed up with the Gold Cloaks as Ned requested, only to use them on Ned instead of in Ned's service.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

Since the show typically introduces the season's plot threads over the first two episodes, I was thinking on what the distribution for season 5 will be like.  There's a bit of awkwardness in that there's three groups of characters we won't have seen since 4.08 (Sansa and co., Theon and co., Ellaria), who it might therefore be good to see in the premiere, but they're also the less urgent characters to appear for much the same reason.  Anyway:

 

1.  Jon and the Night's Watch - very obviously 5.01.  They're as much a book behind other characters, and have to get a move-on.
2.  King's Landing - aftermath of Tywin's assassination.  5.01.
3.  Tyrion - see above.
4.  Daenerys - actually no especially urgent plot elements, but one imagines 5.01.
5.  Arya - symbolism of getting on the boat in 4.10 and getting off in 5.01 is too obvious to ignore, structurally, and she should have a fairly busy season.

6.  Theon and the Boltons - this one's kind of borderline, since we have few details about what will be happening here, but could probably be left to 5.02
7.  Sansa and co. - see above.
8.  Brienne and co. - see above.
9.  Dorne - if we see them prior to Jaime arriving in 5.04, I expect it will be 5.02 or later.  There's no obvious reason for them to be in the premiere.

 

Fulfilling existing expectations, (ie, Harry the Heir), is not at all controversial. In fact there is absolutely nothing controversial at all about that match. It's in line with social expectations then and now, and in line with audience expectations, since that's exactly the intent Baelish has declared. So, I don't think that's at all what is going to happen. As usual, Littlefinger has a different plan. Just like when he made Catelyn think he planned to help Ned, and showed up with the Gold Cloaks as Ned requested, only to use them on Ned instead of in Ned's service.

I don't see any reason to think that's not his plan (with the proviso that, between the lines, he probably isn't intending for Harry to live especially long after fulfilling his purpose as a warlord/Arryn-heir-fatherer).  It's obviously not going to go through as he describes it, but there's no way the next chapter is going to have the whole thing executed even if it was, given the timeline.

Edited December 15, 2014 by SeanC

[Holmbo]

I've been thinking about the possibility of Tyrion and Dany interacting next season. Does anyone has any particular wishes for how you want their interactions to be?
Do you want Tyrion to ally with Dany? Because he wants to help her or just because he wants to use her to get Casterly Rock? Do you want to them to get along or be vary and distrustful or just dislike each other?

 

Whatever happens I hope we get some brutal honesty from Tyrion towards Dany. I'm not sure how their interactions would be in the long run. I guess it depends if the show plan for Tyrion have good or bad influence on Dany.

[Which Tyler]

I've had enough of them - or more to the point, the fan and showrunner portrayal of them.

 

I'd like for Tyrion to tell Dany some home-truths about her family, and for Dany to have Tyrion hanged/roasted for his family's part in the rebellion.

[WearyTraveler]

I don't think Tyrion will die on the book or in the show.

 

I also want for Tyrion to tell Dany some truths about Westerosi history and her family.  Maybe the show will use Tyrion to give the audience much needed background on Robert's Rebellion and lay the ground for R+L=J.  After all, that's what started Robert's rebellion in the first place.  It would be nice if they could tie back to the first episode when Lyanna was mentioned and Robert visited her grave at Winterfell.  The audience never got to learn exactly what had happened between Lyanna, Robert, and Rhaegar.Or Ned's role in Lyanna's "rescue".

Edited January 1, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Avaleigh]

Ideally Tyrion would give the viewers some Targaryen backstory in general. It's probably wishful thinking on my part but if they can include the beetle speech of last season surely they could give Tyrion some lines about the first dance with dragons or Aegon and his sisters--tell Dany something about her family and their long, crazy ass history. Or maybe have him correct something that she was once told by Viserys. 

 

I'd like a discussion of the whole "blood of the dragon" thing since I think we're going to find out that you need Targaryen/Valyrian blood in order to become a dragon rider. Since Dany is going to ride Drogon this season I think it would be nice if we got some clarification on the debate one way or the other.

 

As far as what he tells her about the current players in general, I hope he puts in a good word for Tommen and Myrcella. Since he and Jaime parted on good terms on the show I can see Tyrion feeling defensive of his brother to Dany although I don't know how much good that would do. Cersei will be the main one up for criticism though. I wonder if Tyrion would even mention someone like Littlefinger in their discussions. There's Sansa too, I wonder if Tyrion will say anything about his marriage to the daughter of the Usurper's Dog. 

 

I also really want Tyrion to give Dany the lowdown on Aerys. In turn, since I'm admittedly a supporter of the theory that Aerys is Tyrion's biological father, I want Barristan to talk about whatever he knows regarding Joanna and Aerys. If this theory is true I expect to see more clues this season. 

 

I think this is the first season where I'm looking forward to seeing everybody's story. All of it sounds interesting to me. I only wish Bran could be a part of it. The consolation there though is that whatever is coming with him must be huge, pay off plot reveals so with that in mind I'm fine with waiting another season. Of course I could be wildly overestimating the potential Bran's material in TWoW but just that little glimpse into what can be seen via weirwood made me think that we'll be in for full on scenes and not just short flashes.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Avaleigh

[elzin]

I don't think Tyrion will survive the series. I think he'll make it to the last book, but I think the Lannisters are going to be entirely wiped out like the Reynes. He'll probably be the last one standing and go in some kind of heroic, unheralded way, but he's a dead Lannister walking. 

 

I don't think Dany is going to welcome him with open arms. Her trust issues are worse now and his father did have her SIL, niece, and nephew killed brutally. Just because he took out Tywin (and convicted of doing the same to Joffrey) doesn't mean she'll be like "Oh, you must be the one good Lannister I've never heard about."  We know he's mostly ok but she doesn't.  Kind of like Sansa.  And who knows how much interaction they'll actually on-screen and if they do, how much it will resemble possible book interactions.

 

I think she'll eventually come to ... like? respect? use? him, but initially she's not going to give him warm hugs and  non-poisoned honeyed locusts

[Winnief]

I don't think Tyrion will survive the series.  I think he'll make it to the last book, but I think the Lannisters are going to be entirely wiped out like the Reynes.  He'll probably be the last one standing and go in some kind of heroic, unheralded way, but he's a dead Lannister walking.

 

 

Agreed.  I think House Lannister having lived by the Extinguishing House Principle will die by it as well-ironically Tywin and Cersei's attempts for glory will ultimately prove their family's ruin.  I personally think Tyrion dies fighting the White Walkers. 

 

I am hopeful, though, that before he goes Tyrion will inform Dany of some hard truths concerning her father.  Paradoxically, I think that might actually make her respect him more for his honesty. 

[Constantinople]

I don't think Tyrion will die on the book or in the show.

 

I also want for Tyrion to tell Dany some truths about Westerosi history and her family.  Maybe the show will use Tyrion to give the audience much needed background on Robert's Rebellion and lay the ground for R+L=J.  After all, that's what started Robert's rebellion in the first place.  It would be nice if they could tie back to the first episode when Lyanna was mentioned and Robert visited her grave at Winterfell.  The audience never got to learn exactly what had happened between Lyanna, Robert, and Rhaegar.Or Ned's role in Lyanna's "rescue".

I only recently read the books, so I can say that while the Lyanna-Robert-Rhaegar triangle does need further illumination, there's still plenty for a TV watcher to chew on. Consider how outraged Ned was at the idea of making peace with the Lannisters because they tried to murder his son; he only agreed to confess under duress of the thought of what they might do to his daughters. Yet Ned was curiously quiet whenever Robert frothed at the mouth about Rhaegar, and Ned never suggested that Lyanna went with Rhaegar involuntarily. The second time I watched Season 1, specifically the pilot and second episode, I thought Ned's behavior was quite odd given the allegations about what Rhaegar did to Ned's sister.

My suspicion only grew in Season 3 when Barristan told Daenerys that Rhaegar was the finest man Barristan knew. That idea doesn't really square with Rhaegar the Rapist, and Barristan isn't the lying toady type. Barristan would either tell the truth or say nothing.

But, I don't know how Tyrion would know anything beyond the standard story about R & L.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Constantinople

[Avaleigh]

Agreed.  I think House Lannister having lived by the Extinguishing House Principle will die by it as well-ironically Tywin and Cersei's attempts for glory will ultimately prove their family's ruin.  I personally think Tyrion dies fighting the White Walkers.

 

 

I see this stated a lot and while it might well be true for the show, I think there are too many Lannisters in general for them to go extinct as a house. Same for the Freys and the Tyrells. Their numbers are too high and there are all of the cadet branches. 

 

I  can see Tyrion dying but I don't see it taking him all that long to win Dany over once she starts getting useful information out of him. I can see them having a chilly start and the Jaime thing is definitely going to be an issue but I don't see Tyrion's life being threatened by Dany in any real way or at least not long after their first meeting.

 

I will say though that the fact that they're including Maggy's prophecy + Myrcella's role being beefed up makes me think that Tommen and Myrcella won't be spared and that the prophecy will come true in every way. For D&D to be resistant to including most of the others but making an exception for this one so much so that it's flashback worthy in their minds--I don't think there's any wiggle room here. I can't see them going out of their way to include it if it isn't going to have pay off. 

 

Am I right in thinking that Unsullied viewers don't yet know that Cersei is the oldest and that Jaime and Tyrion both count as being a little brother of hers? 

 

Also, why would the showrunners play up Margaery's sexuality and make Loras basically confirm that she isn't a virgin if this isn't going to come up later on? I feel like this is giving us a hint that some dirt will end up being dug up on Margaery down the road in both the show and the books. 

 

I wonder if the Unsullied even remember that Cersei and Loras had a brief affair? It was one quick scene back in season 1 or 2 ao I can see how somebody who hasn't read the books could easily forget about something like that. What reason I wonder will they give on the show for Lancel suddenly freaking out about everything and deciding that he wants to serve the Faith as a sparrow/warrior/whatever? There's been no set up for it. I also think he should have been at least present for the purple wedding just so audiences could be reminded of his character.

[ElizaD]

I've been thinking about the possibility of Tyrion and Dany interacting next season. Does anyone has any particular wishes for how you want their interactions to be?

Do you want Tyrion to ally with Dany? Because he wants to help her or just because he wants to use her to get Casterly Rock? Do you want to them to get along or be vary and distrustful or just dislike each other?

 

The show seems to avoid protagonists not getting along or having conflicting goals; for example, Show Tyrion became a total victim in his marriage to a Stark hostage and had a friendly parting with Jaime. I think any Dany/Tyrion distrust will be very brief on the show or he'll have done something before his identity is revealed that convinces Dany to trust him. The show will want move on to chummy scenes of lead characters interacting and planning their return to Westeros. The books will probably take a longer and edgier road to the point where they become allies: I expect Book Tyrion will emphasize revenge and the Rock while Show Tyrion will help Dany because she's the Targaryen heir and he's a thoroughly nice guy who doesn't want Cersei in power.

 

I am hopeful, though, that before he goes Tyrion will inform Dany of some hard truths concerning her father.  Paradoxically, I think that might actually make her respect him more for his honesty. 

 

I'm going to be so disappointed if this doesn't happen. Almost everyone has been predicting it for a long time because it makes sense and Dany needs to face the reality of Westeros if she's to avoid her father's mistakes.

 

I wonder if the Unsullied even remember that Cersei and Loras had a brief affair? It was one quick scene back in season 1 or 2 ao I can see how somebody who hasn't read the books could easily forget about something like that. What reason I wonder will they give on the show for Lancel suddenly freaking out about everything and deciding that he wants to serve the Faith as a sparrow/warrior/whatever? There's been no set up for it. I also think he should have been at least present for the purple wedding just so audiences could be reminded of his character.

 

Maybe they'll be a little meta and reintroduce Lancel with a scene where Cersei makes it clear he hasn't been worth thinking about while he was gone.

[Winnief]

Not to mention Constantinople that Oberyn in his first meeting with Tyrion  referred to the matter as "Rhaegar running off with another woman," which was an interesting way to put it-suggests the Martell's always had their suspicions that Lyanna wasn't 'kidnapped' though none of them had any idea about Jon.  Tyrion might have heard alternate versions of the story like that himself.

 

Also I wonder about Lancel myself-and if that wasn't related to the 'private matter' Qyborn was helping Cersei with...like an abortion.  Thus her complaining to Jaime that he left her alone too long-and *that* could definitely come back to haunt her 

[Holmbo]

Interesting points from everyone.

 

I wonder what show Dany knows about the backstory. Does she know the names and background of each of the members of the important families? Or does she just know generally Baratheon's, Starks and Lannisters betrayed her father? It will be interesting to see.

 

Ideally Tyrion would give the viewers some Targaryen backstory in general. It's probably wishful thinking on my part but if they can include the beetle speech of last season surely they could give Tyrion some lines about the first dance with dragons or Aegon and his sisters--tell Dany something about her family and their long, crazy ass history. Or maybe have him correct something that she was once told by Viserys. 

 

Actually I think Dany already would know the far back Targaryen history. Viserys certainly seemed to and if Dany learned Valyrian (don't know if it would be from Viserys or just from some tutor one of their benefactors hired for them). Though that doesn't mean he couldn't say some stuff that they both know that the viewers don't, maybe in context of discussing strategy of dragons in a battle.

 

I'd like a discussion of the whole "blood of the dragon" thing since I think we're going to find out that you need Targaryen/Valyrian blood in order to become a dragon rider. Since Dany is going to ride Drogon this season I think it would be nice if we got some clarification on the debate one way or the other.

I also really want Tyrion to give Dany the lowdown on Aerys. In turn, since I'm admittedly a supporter of the theory that Aerys is Tyrion's biological father, I want Barristan to talk about whatever he knows regarding Joanna and Aerys. If this theory is true I expect to see more clues this season.

 

As the story of the show starts to overtake the books I think we will get more and more hints to which theories might be true. For example we have seen so far a sever lack of any kinds of magic horns which probably mean they wont come into play, in the show at least. But the show has dropped plenty of hints about Jon Snow's parentage so we can pretty much assume that will be important. I could also see the show leaving some theories neither confirmed or denied just because they actually never affect the plot and GRRM might never have planned to reveal them.

 

I don't think Tyrion will survive the series. I think he'll make it to the last book, but I think the Lannisters are going to be entirely wiped out like the Reynes. He'll probably be the last one standing and go in some kind of heroic, unheralded way, but he's a dead Lannister walking. 

 

I don't think Dany is going to welcome him with open arms. Her trust issues are worse now and his father did have her SIL, niece, and nephew killed brutally. Just because he took out Tywin (and convicted of doing the same to Joffrey) doesn't mean she'll be like "Oh, you must be the one good Lannister I've never heard about."  We know he's mostly ok but she doesn't.  Kind of like Sansa.  And who knows how much interaction they'll actually on-screen and if they do, how much it will resemble possible book interactions.

 

I think she'll eventually come to ... like? respect? use? him, but initially she's not going to give him warm hugs and  non-poisoned honeyed locusts

 

 

I see this stated a lot and while it might well be true for the show, I think there are too many Lannisters in general for them to go extinct as a house. Same for the Freys and the Tyrells. Their numbers are too high and there are all of the cadet branches. 

 

I  can see Tyrion dying but I don't see it taking him all that long to win Dany over once she starts getting useful information out of him. I can see them having a chilly start and the Jaime thing is definitely going to be an issue but I don't see Tyrion's life being threatened by Dany in any real way or at least not long after their first meeting.

 

I agree that it would be hard to vipe out every single Lannister. But I think if they where to kill of all the clear heirs and give all the family land to some other family the house would essentially be viped out even though people with the name Lannister might still be found in different places.

 

The show seems to avoid protagonists not getting along or having conflicting goals; for example, Show Tyrion became a total victim in his marriage to a Stark hostage and had a friendly parting with Jaime. I think any Dany/Tyrion distrust will be very brief on the show or he'll have done something before his identity is revealed that convinces Dany to trust him. The show will want move on to chummy scenes of lead characters interacting and planning their return to Westeros. The books will probably take a longer and edgier road to the point where they become allies: I expect Book Tyrion will emphasize revenge and the Rock while Show Tyrion will help Dany because she's the Targaryen heir and he's a thoroughly nice guy who doesn't want Cersei in power.

 

I agree in the sense that when two protagonists interact they always have at least a grudging respect towards each other. 

 

I hope that the show does have some kind of friction between Dany and Tyrion. Because if they just get fully on each others side they're too good of a team for this story. I think even as the show has made certain characters more likeable they have always given some reason for people to be conflicted in roting for them. For example Tyrion has always been on the side of his family even as they do horrible things and Dany has shown to be too idealistic and naive at times. If those concerns were to disappear I hope that there is something else for us to be conflicted about with them.

Also I wonder about Lancel myself-and if that wasn't related to the 'private matter' Qyborn was helping Cersei with...like an abortion.  Thus her complaining to Jaime that he left her alone too long-and *that* could definitely come back to haunt her 

I really wonder where the show was going with that. It seems strange to introduce such a question without having it pay of in any way. Perhaps the silent sisters could somehow tell if she's had an abortion? If it was Lancel's wouldn't it have been pretty long gone though? Someone else? Or something else entirely? Someone suggested menopause. That would be something she might not want to tell Jaime about.

 

As for Lancel I don't think there will be a problem with reminding causal viewers about him and Cersei's history.
Just have him say how happy he is to see her and how he knows what they did was wrong but he doesn't regret it. And when she's being all indifferent towards him he can confess about Tyrion using his knowledge about the affair to blackmail him to spy for him.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Holmbo

[Danny Franks]

So has it been confirmed yet that they're butchering the Dorne storyline to shoehorn Jaime into it? That's disappointing. The stuff in Dorne was really the only highlight of A Feast for Crows, and I liked Areo Hotah, Arianne and even Arys Oakheart as characters.

 

And as I understand it, Arianne Martell isn't even being included in the show. Even more disappointing, given that her existence as the heir to the seat of House Martell would be a great way of showing a more egalitarian attitude to inheritance, explain why Myrcella is more important than she seems, and also highlight Cersei's plight for power she can never hold, due to the unfair rules of most of Westeros. Oh well, it's worth the trade off if they never include any more fucking Ironborn. But somehow I doubt Benioff and Weiss will refrain from including murderous, torturing viking pirates.

 

Every time I try to get excited about this show again, I just get immediately disheartened when I realise what the next season is likely to actually include. Dany in Meereen? I'd rather watch Theon getting tortured again. Sansa and Littlefinger? No thanks. Not until Aiden Gillen realises he's not in an amateur dramatics performance of Othello. More Ramsay Snow? Despite my previous comment, I have no interest in his comical villainy.

 

So if they could streamline the shit out of all that, and reduce it to a scene or two per episode? That would be an improvement on the books.

[elzin]

It's really not that hard to imagine all the Lannisters (and Freys and Boltons - they're not long for Westeros either) being exterminated. Sure, there might be a stray Lannister in Braavos or Dorne who might escape. A distant cousin, etc. Did really every single Reyne really die when Tywin killed the rest?  They say the Gardiners all died, but reading AWOIAF shows that they intermarried into the Reach's other families, so technically Gardiner blood still exists. Just what they consider the family line to be wiped out.  The Valyrians all died... oh wait, except for that one branch of Targaryens hiding out on Dragonstone.  So it's not necessarily genocide entirely but how we and the people in-universe describe things.

 

So really, it's not a stretch that the same sort of future looms for the Lannisters. 

 

Plus total extermination? That's really not far fetched. There's war and famine. There's greyscale from two separate people, potentially.  There's freaking wildfyre stashed everywhere in KL. There are at least three dragons bent on revenge on their way.  Faceless Men contracts. White Walkers and wights.  Arya's List. Maggy the frog's prophecies. The Brotherhood without Banners. Whatever Littlefinger and Varys have up their sleeves. Connington's and Martel's long-dormant plans being enacted. Dothraki hordes crossing the Narrow Sea, maybe bringing the Pale Mare.  Wildlings and Mountain Clans.  A giant pack of direwolves. Weirwood networks. The Lord of Light and other religious fanaticism, including whatever is going on with the High Septon and the Faith Militant.

 

There are so many things that are going to kill just about everyone everywhere. 

[Avaleigh]

DannyFranks, I disagree with you about looking forward to the season and AG as an actor but your description of AG's performance made me LOL.

I'm actually looking forward to pretty much everything and I think it's because this is the first season where I know for sure that I'll be in for surprises as a viewer. Sansa in particular- -anything can happen there so I think that alone is exciting even with an arguably weak performance from AG.

Dorne--the only thing I haven't liked about what I've heard is how they're dumping Arianne in favor of sexed up Sandsnakes. I also think it's a mistake to cut Quentyn when he serves a very specific function and it would have taken all of two or three scenes to include that story. I'm hoping though that there will be a Quentyn substitute so that audiences will be able to see the contrast of of someone taming a dragon successfully and someone who gets it fatally wrong.

I'm also really, really looking forward to the Wall for a change. Between Melisandre, Shireen, and any new WW info like the Night's King I feel like there's a lot to look forward to. I'm looking forward to reading and hearing people's reactions to to Jon's Julius Caesar moment.

I don't care about Ramsay at all but if more Ramsay means more Roose then I'm down. This actually makes me wonder if Roose will be a part of this season. Any confirmation there? Also, are they including Alys Karstark or has she been cut? Lady Dustin?

About magical horns coming into play--these are interesting omissions since I've had the impression that two of the horns are going to be a big deal. It'shard to say which sseems the most important but I'd have to guess the one that will bring down the Wall sincethat's a complete game changer. At least Dany doesn't seem to have need of the horn to ride Drogon.

This makes me wonder--for those who have read TWOIAF--is there any mention of past Targaryens ever using one of these horns? I can't recall them ever being mentioned. If they were that important or essential it seems we would have read more about them and we'd have lines about how Daeron or whoever used the same horn as Aegon I kind of like how we'd read about so-and-so wearing the same crown as _______Targaryen.

The House that seems like it could be on the verge of extinction to me is House Arryn* certainly from the main branch anyway. I also find it hard to believe that a monarch like Dany or Jon would think it right to dispossess all living Lannisters from their lawful heritage. Why should a Lannister such as say Daven or Cerenna be made to pay for the mistakes of Tywin, Joffrey, and Cersei?

*ETA

Now that I'm thinking about it Houses Baratheon and Greyjoy could be on the way out too. Stannis could remarry but I doubt it. Mel seems to have worn him out anyway. I suppose Edric could be legitimized but the only person I could maybe see doing that is Jon. We know Stannis won't and Dany doesn't really have reason to want to legitimize one of the Usurper's kids.

With the Greyjoys, Aeron and Theon are out. Victarion is a dead man walking and Euron has no wife and is also very likely marked for death. I wonder if Asha even wants children?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Winnief]

 

I don't care about Ramsay at all but if more Ramsay means more Roose then I'm down. This actually makes me wonder if Roose will be a part of this season.

Well the actress who plays Fat Walda is scheduled for episode 1 according to Watchers on the Wall so I'm thinking "yes." 

Personally I'm really excited for Theon/Reek next season.

 

 

It's really not that hard to imagine all the Lannisters (and Freys and Boltons - they're not long for Westeros either) being exterminated. Sure, there might be a stray Lannister in Braavos or Dorne who might escape. A distant cousin, etc. Did really every single Reyne really die when Tywin killed the rest?  They say the Gardiners all died, but reading AWOIAF shows that they intermarried into the Reach's other families, so technically Gardiner blood still exists. Just what they consider the family line to be wiped out.  The Valyrians all died... oh wait, except for that one branch of Targaryens hiding out on Dragonstone.  So it's not necessarily genocide entirely but how we and the people in-universe describe things.

 

So really, it's not a stretch that the same sort of future looms for the Lannisters.

Not to mention the fact that I'm SURE at some point the books are going to reach Lannisport and Casterly Rock for some epic scenes there.

[Avaleigh]

There are so many things that are going to kill just about everyone everywhere.

 

 

With that being the case I don't see House Lannister being more at risk than any other House especially when the Lannisters have a reputation for being fertile. 

Edited January 4, 2015 by Avaleigh

[elzin]

With that being the case I don't see House Lannister being more at risk than any other House especially when the Lannisters have a reputation for being fertile. 

I think though there's been a lot of foreshadowing and the Lannisters aren't going to be THE family that survives the carnage.  It also makes sense from a narrative perspective because the Lannisters think they're above being wiped out because of their wealth and power and numbers. Hubris is just asking for trouble in Westeros. 

 

There will be at least one surviving Stark, and probably several. 

 

The Lannisters aren't as fertile as the Freys, and they're going to be gone too, with maybe the exception of Hodor.  Fertility didn't help the Reynes or the Harrens. 

[Avaleigh]

There will be at least one surviving Stark, and probably several.

 

 

I think they'll all survive. I don't fear for any of them to be honest. Maybe Arya could die but I honestly think that's a long shot. 

 

I do agree that the Lannisters we know best will probably die though. Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion, Myrcella, Tommen, Lancel, Daven

(he's the one getting married in TWoW, right?)

--they all seem like they're marked for death. Also, I think the only people who had the nerve to think of House Lannister as above being wiped out are Tywin and Cersei. Kevan, Jaime, Daven seem like they would have/would try to make things right if given the chance. 

 

I just dislike the idea of an entire house being wiped out because of the actions of a couple of members. I've always hated the way Sansa thinks that she hates all Lannisters even though she's seen for herself that they aren't all bad and that they aren't all the same. She saw how different Myrcella and Tommen were from Joffrey and she saw that Tyrion was different from Cersei. I find it frustrating that so many people in this series extend grudges towards entire families as opposed to focusing their anger on specific individuals. I think certain people should pay for the Red Wedding but I don't think House Frey should be exterminated due to the fact that their patriarch and a few others happen to be gigantic assholes. Where is the proof that they're all so bad that they should be murdered down to the last one? 

 

I didn't realize that the Reynes and Harrens were known for their fertility.

[Winnief]

Fair points all Avaleigh.

 

Regarding Sansa, while she says she hates all Lannisters, (and it's certainly fair to say she doesn't trust any of them which given the history is probably a sound principle,) she doesn't show much vindictiveness to any of them EXCEPT Cersei and Joffrey.  During Blackwater she prayed for mercy for the Imp and she asked the Maester to look after the wounded Lancel.

 

She hates being *married* to Tyrion and I think its best for both of them if that sham ends but she doesn't hate him personally.  In fact on the show they suggest that Sansa and Tyrion might under different circumstances at least been friends.

 

Maybe not all House Frey should be extinguished-certainly not innocent parties like poor Roslin, (though I have a bad feeling about her long term prospects,) but there's no way they can be allowed to *profit* from their crime.  They can't keep Riverrun and probably not even the Twins by the time its all done. 

 

I do think one of the better points of AFFC was Jaime learning about the Bracken/Blackwood feud-it seemed to be Martin's way of suggesting that endless blood letting is bad.  So with the exception of Cersei, I would think Sansa won't be wanting any further vengeance or death on House Lannister but will be willing to work with Jaime, and let him redeem himself. 

 

The thing is what's happening in the series is that House Lannister is in real trouble-but its NOT because of the Starks but themselves.  Joffrey's madness made his eventual murder inevitable, Tywin gets killed by his own son, Cersei's horrible judgment is dragging down the whole family...If the Lannister's do somehow become extinguished it'll probably be because of Cersei or vengeance via Tyrion and House Stark will only be tangentially connected.

 

And yeah, of all the important families in Westeros, the Starks (despite on paper being nearly extinguished) are the only one I'm 100% sure will still be standing at the end of the series.  Wolves are evolved to withstand winter...lions and roses though perhaps not so much...

 

Oh, one other Great House you didn't mention; the Greyjoys.  They're in serious trouble and again it's mostly self-inflicted.  Seven only knows where the latest Iron Born campaign will lead but I'm pretty damn certain it's NOT gonna be what the IB themselves are hoping for.  Asha might pull through, but that House probably will be extinguished on the male line and a good thing too.  The best poor Theon can hope for now is a quick death and don't get me started on Euron and Vic.

[elzin]

The thing is what's happening in the series is that House Lannister is in real trouble-but its NOT because of the Starks but themselves.  Joffrey's madness made his eventual murder inevitable, Tywin gets killed by his own son, Cersei's horrible judgment is dragging down the whole family...If the Lannister's do somehow become extinguished it'll probably be because of Cersei or vengeance via Tyrion and House Stark will only be tangentially connected.

 

And yeah, of all the important families in Westeros, the Starks (despite on paper being nearly extinguished) are the only one I'm 100% sure will still be standing at the end of the series.  Wolves are evolved to withstand winter...lions and roses though perhaps not so much...

 

Oh, one other Great House you didn't mention; the Greyjoys. 

 

I never think of the Greyjoys. I hate them so much and they bore me so they're kind of add-ons.  There's still Asha/Yara, but as someone pointed out earlier, who knows if she wants kids. I think she might survive. The Tyrells, Martells, Arryns: so much depends on things we can't know yet. The Baratheons are toast. Literally two left and one has a fatal disease. I think Edmure and the baby will be fine. If Dany can't bring a viable baby to term, there go the Targs, but that's also something we can't know yet.  I mean, there are people with Targs in their family tree (most notably the Martells) but they're not considered Targs.

 

And yes, the Lannisters aren't going to be personally murdered by Starks down to the last one, even if Arya and Stoneheart really, really want to do that.  It's their "I'm royalty and I have the power" or "Casterly Rock is safe" or "Let me empower the High Septon so he fights my battles for me" attitudes that going to bring them down. Hoisted by their own petards, plus general Westeros chaos and death traps everywhere.

 

I'm not sure all the Starks will make it.  I'm not liking Bran in the tree.  What's Rickon really like? Will we find a normal Benjen?  And I think Jon will survive and find out R+L, but CHOOSE to remain a Snow. Not that he can have kids when he also chooses to stay/go back to the NW, but it's something.

[WearyTraveler]

I think it's highly possible Jon will decide to return to the NW and remain a Snow.  And I also think at least one male Stark will survive to carry on the family name.  I don't have high hopes of Brandon ever getting off the tree.  I think his fate is the same as Bloodraven's so, that leaves Rickon, since I don't think Sansa or Arya could pass on the family name, given Westerosi laws (although maybe Daenerys will change that).

 

I think Martin once said Arya is his wife's favourite character and so, she's the only one guaranteed to live.  But I don't think he'll kill any of the remaining Starks anyway.

[Avaleigh]

I think it's highly possible Jon will decide to return to the NW and remain a Snow.

 

 

Why would he return to the order that betrayed him in the worst possible way? 

 

I feel like the entire point of Jon's death/assassination/resurrection/whatever is going to happen is about freeing him from his vows. He owes absolutely nothing to the watch now IMHO. They made the choice to take him out and now his watch is over. Simple as that as far as I'm concerned. I'd be beyond disappointed if Jon still felt that he needed to remain at the Wall after everything that has happened. 

 

Oh, one other Great House you didn't mention; the Greyjoys.  They're in serious trouble and again it's mostly self-inflicted.  Seven only knows where the latest Iron Born campaign will lead but I'm pretty damn certain it's NOT gonna be what the IB themselves are hoping for.  Asha might pull through, but that House probably will be extinguished on the male line and a good thing too.  The best poor Theon can hope for now is a quick death and don't get me started on Euron and Vic.

 

 

I actually did mention the Greyjoys in my previous post up thread. I edited the post a few minutes later so you probably missed it. I agree with you that they're probably going to be wiped out. Victarion is so going down by one of the dragons IMO and Euron doesn't seem like he'll get married and have a trueborn son prior to dying while he's trying to keep and/or take the Iron Throne. I wonder if Aeron is allowed to change his mind and marry if he chooses? Not that I think that'll happen I'm just curious.

 

Regarding the Sansa hating Lannisters thing--I think what really frustrated me with her was when she was thinking that she'd train her children to hate all Lannisters. That is just some unhelpful, bull headed way to perpetuate a lifetime of bullshit unpleasantness and it totally seemed like an attitude that Catelyn would take. Ultimately I think that Sansa is sweet, thoughtful, and kindhearted and I find it disappointing that even with all of her experiences she's still so blind in certain ways.

 

Point taken though that she isn't made of stone and that she seems to at least have a grudging level of respect for Tyrion on the show.  

[Winnief]

Well Avaleigh remember when Sansa is thinking she'd raise her children to hate all Lannisters she's doing so as a terrorized hostage who's currently indulging in a fantasy of escape so it's a little like thinking how much you want to kill your obnoxious co-worker.  You probably wouldn't actually do it given the chance.  I suspect that (except for Cersei,) Sansa won't be personally hating Lannister's in Cat's vindictive style in the future-which doesn't mean she won't still have reason to oppose their regime.  But I think, Sansa in the future, (with a little time to heal) could make peace with the rest of the clan.  And I got the impression she pitied Tyrion-she just couldn't love him.  Assuming there *is* a Lannister clan to make peace with.  I found the following observations at commentary on the Westerlands section of AWOIAF at racefortheironthrone.com which struck me as a good catch.

 

1. Casterly Rock gives off a lot of Erebor if you've seen the Hobbit.  A fortress/mine built into a mountain possessing a massive horde of gold.  I guess that would make Tyrion, Thorin Oakenshield, a dwarf lord who is on a quest to reclaim said seat, and escaped via wine barrel. The difference being Tyrion would be using dragons (figuratively and literally) to reclaim his seat.

2. Look at the three Reyne siblings: we have the Red Lion is the most powerful warrior in the Westernlands (Jaime), his brother Raynard is as cunning and charming as his brother is skilled at arms (Tyrion), and the sister Ellyne, a hot-tempered ambitious woman who isn't above using sex to get her way  and is a supreme nepotist showering her family with benefits during her 'reign," and fails to give her husband any children (Cersei.)

3.Who was allied with them?  House Tarbeck whose colors are silver and blue,  (the colors of House Frey) led by the old "Walder"-an Tarbeck.  Things don't look well for House Frey.

 

 

It's also worth noting that Castamere like Casterly Rock began as a mine and just like Ellyne Tarbeck, Cersei has accumulated a lot of debt to very powerful people which she not only doesn't pay back but is dangerously disrespectful when called upon.  Both the Tarbecks and Reynes at the end were trusting to the security of their castle walls to defend them, and so Ellyne Tarbeck and the Reynes all died within their splendid palaces which were left to ruins and became cautionary tales. 

 

Foreshadowing anyone?

 

[elzin]

I feel like the entire point of Jon's death/assassination/resurrection/whatever is going to happen is about freeing him from his vows. He owes absolutely nothing to the watch now IMHO. They made the choice to take him out and now his watch is over. Simple as that as far as I'm concerned. I'd be beyond disappointed if Jon still felt that he needed to remain at the Wall after everything that has happened. 

I think when he Dondarrions himself up via Ghost and Melisandre in TWOW, he's done with the NW... for a while.  He'll have fulfilled his vows and he can't go wandering through Westeros, so off to Essos he'll go, where he'll find Dany and ride a dragon back.  The Wall is coming down (maybe that'll take out a few Lannisters, Freys, Boltons, and Greyjoys too ;)  ) and when all the fighting is done, I think he's going back to the NW.  As penance, out of a sense of duty, as feeling like it's where he belongs. It won't be "Hey I'm resurrected. Maybe they'll let me be a Ranger this time" but more when all else is done, that's where he's going to go at the end and rebuild the Wall, be the 1000th Lord Commander, and be epic doing so.

[Avaleigh]

I think Jorah will be the 100th commander. Jaime and Theon are my other guesses although I admit Theon would be a longshot.

Jon becoming Commander again would not only feel like a let down to me but it would feel repetitive as well.

With Jorah becoming Commander though I feel like the character will be moving forward as opposed to staying in the same place. Plus I like that this would satisfy the Old Bear's dying wish so that's another reason Jorah being the 1000th Commander appeals to me.

[Holmbo]

I feel like there's three other possibilities apart from John which is jorah Jaime and stannis.

I sort of don't like the idea of Jon getting out of his oat though. But what other plot purpose is there to him dying.

[Advance35]

The only part of the Wall Saga I've liked during the course of ASOIAF is "Game of Thrones" and the conclusion of "A Storm of Swords" (the election of Jon as LC) other than that, it took Stannis to get me "connected" to that part of the story and all things considered I'm still more interested in Kings Landing.   The show with  it's various hints and forshadowings has done a much better job of hooking me, as it were.   Showing us what happens to babies that are taken beyond the wall when left as a sacrifice was a very good move on the parts of the show runners and was a good reminder that though the political intrigues are more "juicy" IMO there is an impending threat that is going to rock the world of any/all champion "Game Players".

 

Re: Sansa.  I don't think Sansa let's the desire for vengeance grind away inside her like Cersei or even Arya, but I do think she hold's grudges.   And I think the show very much hinted that during Season 4.   I don't think she's like the Martells (since they hate House Lannister so much they want Tommen dead), but I think she'd do something that would cost the lives of "innocent" Lannisters like Tommen and Myrcella if it would save herself or help House Stark and I don't think she bat an eyelash doing so.   She didn't set out to frame Tyrion for Regicide or make him look more guilty but Tyrion facing execution was an acceptable price for her gaining her freedom.   I could see the Lannister's needing aide/food from the Vale and Sansa refusing, even if it would take out "good Lannisters" like Tommen and Myrcella in addition to Cersei and Jaimie.  I think Sansa's hate is just as deep as the Martells and even Arya's but I think Sansa's more clinical about it.  She'd watch Tommen and Myrcella marched to the executioners block if part of a polical manuever to her or her House's Benefit.

 

In regards to Blood Feuds, I think GRRM has actually painted a world where I understand why they are held so strongly.   The Red Wedding, maybe not ALL of House Frey participated in it btu ALL of House Frey has profited from it.   Many Frey wives weren't present at the wedding but we see at the House Manderly Court, Frey wives are scheming (one having her handmaiden seduce the Court Fool of House Manderly) to help House Frey prosper in the aftermath.   To anyone who lost someone at the Red Wedding, that's probably a bitter pill to swallow.

 

Jon Snow seethes with resentment over the "fat boy King" Tommen when thinking about him in comparison to Bran.   He takes pleasure in the idea of what's going to become of Tommen when the Iron Bank "has it's due".   And wishes death and destruction on House Lannister (it always makes me LOL when people say Tyrion and Jon Snow are friends).    I think it's believable that people who've lost and suffered so much because of House Lannister would hate even the innocent one's.   Tywin and Cersei have done all this for Legacy, to see Tommen and Myrcella prosper must seem like Tywin winning from the grave.

[Winnief]

I already considered Jamie becoming the 1000 LC, (besides the obvious irony of Jaime once ridiculing Jon for joining the NW to do it himself, I actually believe it would probably be the course of action that made Jaime most happy IMHO and offered the best chances for redemption by finally giving him a truly worthy, honorable, and noble cause to fight for which is what Jaime has always wanted most,) but I also like the idea of Jorah or Stannis in the role as well.  Stannis being well...Stannis is pretty well suited to the rather harsh austere Crow lifestyle anyway.

 

And yeah, the ending of Oathkeeper was a *brilliant* way to hook people in to how important the White Walkers really are.  As fascinating as the Game is, in the real world as well as Planetos every now and then some Black Swan event; be it a huge advance in technology, plague, natural disaster, environmental devastation comes along and changes all the rules and it's amazing in retrospect how often the ruling forces of the time are completely taken aback and unprepared for the crisis.  This becomes a great allegory for all that-in fact there's a strong comparison to be made with the current political battles as Global Warming escalates. 

 

And I agree with Avaleigh-it's not that Sansa will be actively seeking vengeance on the Lannister's so much that a. She won't see any reason to do them any particular favors at this point, and b. She will be ruthless about putting her own family's interests above theirs.  She doesn't have anything against Tommen or Myrcella personally but she won't hesitate to put them in trouble if for instance it helps Rickon return as Lord of Winterfell or to restore Tully heirs to Riverrun.  And that's not even considering her feelings if/when she learns the truth about her foster brother/cousin's 'claim'...

[Advance35]

And I agree with Avaleigh-it's not that Sansa will be actively seeking vengeance on the Lannister's so much that a. She won't see any reason to do them any particular favors at this point, and b. She will be ruthless about putting her own family's interests above theirs.  She doesn't have anything against Tommen or Myrcella personally but she won't hesitate to put them in trouble if for instance it helps Rickon return as Lord of Winterfell or to restore Tully heirs to Riverrun.  And that's not even considering her feelings if/when she learns the truth about her foster brother/cousin's 'claim'...

 

Exactly what I was trying to say.  I don't think it will be Bolton level of cruel but I think it will be something Olenna Tyrell like (her killing Joffrey but letting Tyrion and Sansa take the fall), I just feel like it's going to be something especially cold.  It may target Cersei or even Genna Lannister (who was perfectly fine/encouraging with the murder of Edmure Tully) but there will be more collateral damage. 

 

I thought the tweaks to her character in Season 4 were way to pronounced, they have to be telegraphing her future.   Primary being survival, followed by prosperity and than vengance.     Even in her PTSD state during AFFC, Sansa's instinct is to give a believed "cursed" castle to Walder Frey. LOL.

[elzin]

I think Jorah will be the 100th commander. Jaime and Theon are my other guesses although I admit Theon would be a longshot.

 

Jorah is my 2nd guess for eventual 1000th LC and if Jaime survives, he's my #3 guess.  Whoever succeeds Jon is going to undoubtedly make things soooooooooooooooooo much worse, even if they have good intentions, so his immediate successor is not going to still be in charge at the end of ADOS.

[Winnief]

What makes you think Jon's successor will make things *worse*?  (Assuming that's even possible for the crows now.)

 

And Advance I do wonder if the show is moving to make Sansa something like a second Olenna or at least a second Margaery.  It will be very VERY interesting to see what happens next there.

[SeanC]

I think his fate is the same as Bloodraven's so, that leaves Rickon, since I don't think Sansa or Arya could pass on the family name, given Westerosi laws (although maybe Daenerys will change that).

Women can pass on the family name, which generally happens when they're rulers in their own right.  In the main series, you have Maege Mormont, Arwyn Oakheart, Anya Waynwood, and Lyessa Flint, all of whose sons and daughters have their surnames.

[elzin]

What makes you think Jon's successor will make things *worse*?  (Assuming that's even possible for the crows now.)

I think the things Jon was doing that led him to be killed (letting the Wildlings through, etc) were the right things, the far-sighted, pragmatic things. He wasn't doing it to appease Stannis, which is what everyone else seems to have thought. So his replacement is not going to have Jon's wisdom or compassion and even if he doesn't undo the good things Jon did, he's not going to be continuing in the same vein.  Being allies with The Free Folk so TOGETHER they can fight the Others is the most important thing in Planetos, so I can't imagine GRRM is going to have that happen so easily.

[benteen]

Yeah, I think Jon's successor has the potential to destroy the Night's Watch.

 

Jon was a visionary leader who rightly realized that the Wildlings are not the enemy but the Others are.  Teaming up with them will make them stronger.  He had big plans for the Watch but his inexperience and arrogance (Jon arrogantly dismisses people who don't share his views I felt).  Underestimating how difficult it would be for men who had spent their lives fighting the Wildlings to suddenly embrace them as allies.  Not to mention caring for the Wildlings was legitimately putting a major strain on their food for the winter.  Jon wanted to follow Ned's example about distancing himself from his men but seemed to forget that his father made it a point to invite at least one of his men to a family dinner and get to know them (Robb seemed to have this skill).  Pushing his friends away might have been the dumbest thing he did.  And no matter how he tried to spin it, he did break his vows by involving himself in politics with the whole Ramsay Snow affair.

 

But Jon was the only thing keeping the Wildling alliance alive and without him, it's going to be a bloodbath.  While I understand the reluctance of the Night's Watch to be involved in politics, I felt the Bowen Marsh's of the Watch were ungrateful as hell to Stannis.

 

As for who the 1,000th leader of the Watch is going to be, I always felt it would be either Jaime, Theon, or Jorah.  Stannis has a great chance at being it too.

[Constantinople]

Does there need to be any significance to the 1,000th leader of the Night's Watch, assuming there even is one?

 

Isn't that sort of thing from which, theoretically, GRRM steers away?

 

I ask as a one-time only book reader who occasionally skims a few chapters from the books (does that mean I'm a sophmore bookwalker?)

[charis]

Martin's got a thing for upending stereotype and expectation, which would have the 1000th dude be significant. Whether he upends the expectation that he'll upend the expectation by making it matter after all is another story, I suppose?

 

If he really wanted to completely torpedo expectation, the 1000th would be a lady -- which is not any kind of serious speculation as much as an idly amusing thought.

Edited January 13, 2015 by charis

[Winnief]

So maybe Brienne for LC then?!?

[SeanC]

Does there need to be any significance to the 1,000th leader of the Night's Watch, assuming there even is one?

 

Isn't that sort of thing from which, theoretically, GRRM steers away?

I think people tend to overstate the degree to which GRRM subverts expectations.

[Maximum Taco]

Does there need to be any significance to the 1,000th leader of the Night's Watch, assuming there even is one?

 

Isn't that sort of thing from which, theoretically, GRRM steers away?

 

I ask as a one-time only book reader who occasionally skims a few chapters from the books (does that mean I'm a sophmore bookwalker?)

 

You might think that at first. A lot of people do on first read through. But if you start really thinking about it though, a lot of the surprising moments in ASOIAF have to happen for the story to continue.

 

When you think your way through it, no one super important has died yet. With the exception of Ned, but Ned is the Obi-Wan Kenobi Death in AGOT. He needs to die for the younger protagonists to step into the story. Martin just does a really good job of putting him in the center of all the action to start off so not a lot of people see it coming.

 

But if you strip everything down, so the Starks are just a bunch of brothers and sisters in a protective family element, for the story to start that protective family needs to disappear. Like every RPG that starts with the protagonist being orphaned.

 

Now if Jon Snow makes no appearence in TWOW because he actually died at the end of ADWD, I will totally change my mind, cause I did not see that shit coming.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Maximum Taco