Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

She is not someone who murders people AT ALL. But if someone murdered Tyrion, Tommen, Myrcella, and all three kittens for her, and came looking to her for thanks, she wouldn't shed a tear, but would smilingly offer thanks and payment. We like to imagine that "kill all Lannisters" means just Cersei and Joffrey. Hard-core Lannister haters are chill with adding Tyrion, Lancel, Kevan, and all of their faceless female and child counterparts to the list. But once it comes down to Tommen, we like to imagine that Stark loyalists would draw the line. But we are wrong. In a sense, Cersei was right. Everyone not them IS the enemy.

 

As for Arya, and a reasonable, kind way to force her to marry a Frey: 11 year olds are 11. They do not "mature" just because their age is inconvenient. Sansa would pull it together and marry whomever the family picked for her, just as she pulled it together and married Tyrion and tried very hard to find a way to be ok with it. But Arya isn't Sansa, and if the family really tried to marry her to someone, she would challenge their right to do so, and they had better be prepared to defend that right with strength of arms. Sansa submits because she is naturally submissive and obedient, but Arya would be out the window and onto the best horse she could steal before anybody could blink. 

 

If there were another way around filthy old Walder Frey, Catelyn would have found it BEFORE promising Robb and Arya to the Freys. There isn't one. The Starks really had nothing whatsoever to offer the Freys, stacked next to the Lannisters and the Crown, other than blood and marriage.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Hecate7

[Constantinople]

We like to imagine that "kill all Lannisters" means just Cersei and Joffrey. Hard-core Lannister haters are chill with adding Tyrion, Lancel, Kevan, and all of their faceless female and child counterparts to the list.

You left out Jaime. I am very chill with the idea of Jaime's head being separated from his shoulders.

 

But once it comes down to Tommen, we like to imagine that Stark loyalists would draw the line.

If the pretender Tommen Waters, or perhaps its Tommen Hill, must be executed to spare thousands of additional lives in renewed civil war, including thousands of other children, then Tommen has to go.

That being said, I'd be willing to let Tommen and Jaime join the Night's Watch provided Jaime acknowledged he was the father of Joffrey, Tommen & Myrcella; Tommen accepted this, and there was a simultaneous education of the public that every true born Baratheon has brown hair.

I'm not sure what to do about Myrcella though. Do the Silent Sisters or Septas have to give up all claims to their family's inheritance?

 

ut we are wrong. In a sense, Cersei was right. Everyone not them IS the enemy.

That and Cersei. She's probably the Lannister's worst enemy. In any case, she and Jaime are the ones who put Tommen (and Joffrey and Myrcella) in danger by having children and passing them off as Robert's heirs.

[ElizaD]

What exactly did the show runners say about tywin? I've seen it referred to often but never read it. At least Charles

Dance said he was an a hole.

 

The interview.

 

Weiss: Well, I don’t think Tywin is a villain.

Benioff: That’s a fair point. If you read the story from the Stark point of view…

Weiss: …then I guess he would be a villain.

Benioff: But Tywin isn’t torturing prostitutes for pleasure. He’s not a sadist. He’s ruthless, for sure. But there’s an argument to be made that Westeros needs ruthlessness.

 

A Stark POV isn't necessary to find Tywin a villain: just about everyone in the tough faux-medieval society of Westeros thinks he's a despicable butcher who goes too far. He deliberately unleashes his worst monsters on the civilian population. He violates the biggest taboo in the land because it benefits him right then, without a thought for whether it's a good thing in the long run. The result of all this is not a Westeros made safer or controlled by ruthlessness, but a Westeros where people stop giving a damn about human decency and laws that used to guarantee the possibility of negotiation even in wartime. Tywin has set his house on the road to ruin (its only hope of survival seems to be the son who killed him): his enemies are lining up for revenge on even the innocent Lannisters because Tywin himself chose to make conflicts all or nothing. And it's just mind-boggling that they think a character who had a girl gang-raped (and made his son go last, by which time she was bleeding and incoherent) was not a sadist, presumably because he was not physically participating in the rape of Tysha, or Elia, or shouting insults at his father's mistress on her walk of shame. Tywin is nowhere near Lawful Neutral on the D&D alignment scale, and you could argue he's not even Lawful Evil since his strategies are based on committing atrocities on a greater scale than anyone else (the Red Wedding, Gregor etc. in the Riverlands), which undermines the social structure and only leads to a temporary rule by fear until people grow numb or reckless enough to answer in kind. If the message the showrunners got from the series is that Tywin was the man Westeros needed, it makes me afraid they're the kind of people who only bother with the Machiavelli quote about it being better to be feared than loved but not the part where he wrote that it's important to avoid being hated (which Tywin utterly failed at).

 

At no point was Joffrey "terrified out of raping or killing her"; kindly point out where that was.  Sansa was no more protected as Tyrion's wife than as a hostage; either way, she was Tywin's prisoner with strategic value.  And, again, if Joffrey wanted to rape her, Tywin would not have stopped him (particularly as that would solve the problem of Tyrion not raping her himself).

 

There's even a scene in ASOS that shows how little Joffrey feared Tyrion: "“If you read less, Uncle Imp, perhaps Lady Sansa would have a baby in her belly by now.” He laughed... and when the king laughs, the court laughs with him. “Don’t be sad, Sansa, once I’ve gotten Queen Margaery with child I’ll visit your bedchamber and show my little uncle how it’s done.”

Sansa reddened. She glanced nervously at Tyrion, afraid of what he might say. This could turn as nasty as the bedding had at their own feast. But for once the dwarf filled his mouth with wine instead of words."

Edited October 25, 2014 by ElizaD

[Winnief]

A Stark POV isn't necessary to find Tywin a villain: just about everyone in the tough faux-medieval society of Westeros thinks he's a despicable butcher who goes too far. He deliberately unleashes his worst monsters on the civilian population. He violates the biggest taboo in the land because it benefits him right then, without a thought for whether it's a good thing in the long run. The result of all this is not a Westeros made safer or controlled by ruthlessness, but a Westeros where people stop giving a damn about human decency and laws that used to guarantee the possibility of negotiation even in wartime. Tywin has set his house on the road to ruin (its only hope of survival seems to be the son who killed him): his enemies are lining up for revenge on even the innocent Lannisters because Tywin himself chose to make conflicts all or nothing. And it's just mind-boggling that they think a character who had a girl gang-raped (and made his son go last, by which time she was bleeding and incoherent) was not a sadist, presumably because he was not physically participating in the rape of Tysha, or Elia, or shouting insults at his father's mistress on her walk of shame. Tywin is nowhere near Lawful Neutral on the D&D alignment scale, and you could argue he's not even Lawful Evil since his strategies are based on committing atrocities on a greater scale than anyone else (the Red Wedding, Gregor etc. in the Riverlands), which undermines the social structure and only leads to a temporary rule by fear until people grow numb or reckless enough to answer in kind. If the message the showrunners got from the series is that Tywin was the man Westeros needed, it makes me afraid they're the kind of people who only bother with the Machiavelli quote about it being better to be feared than loved but not the part where he wrote that it's important to avoid being hated (which Tywin utterly failed at).

 

 

Well said!  Also Amanda Marcotte, (my favorite feminist blogger,) wrote a really great post where she commented that Tywin constitutes a 'free rider' or a cheater in society.  He succeeds because he's willing to take things to a much more brutal and crueler level than anyone else does, but while this serves his short term goals it's very corrosive to Westerosi society, (and even House Lannister) in the long run.  Essentially Tywin , Joffrey, and Cersei managed to burn the Lannister's bridges to every good family in the Seven Kingdoms, (as well as making themselves despised by the smallfolk as well,) which mean that if/when the Lannister's got into trouble there'd be no one willing to help out in sharp contrast to the Starks who even in such desperate times can get armies to starve and freeze on their way to Winterfell for them. 

 

And of course for someone so obsessed with his legacy Tywin was completely blind to his children's true natures; he was completely ignorant of the Twincest (with disastrous results to everyone), he scorned his most talented child, and he sacked King's Landing, and ordered the murders of Elia and her children to make Cersei a queen, despite the fact that it would have been hard to find any high born woman in the Seven Kingdoms less suitable for the job.  But Tywin seemed unaware of that, until ASOS just as he was also unaware that the grandson he was killing tens of thousands for was utterly unfit for the Crown in every possible way and completely incapable of holding it.   Again he only realized the truth in ASOS after the Red Wedding.  Hasn't he been keeping tabs on Cersei or Joffrey from afar all these years?!?  Doesn't do the Lannister's much good to have family on the Iron Throne after all if said family manage to get the throne room burned to the ground. 

Like really he did all those strong arm tactics and spilled all that blood to bring stability to the Seven Kingdoms in the form of...King Joffrey.  I'm sorry but that's just unforgivable no matter whose side you're on.

[benteen]

Tywin isn't torturing prostitutes for his pleasure.  Nope, he's having 50 men gang-rapping a woman for daring to marry his son.  He had his father's mistress paraded around naked in the streets of Lannisport.  He violated a law in that land meant to give safe passage.  And he unleashed his dogs to murder and rape peasants.  Yeah, Tywin isn't a villain at all...

[Skeeter22]

Tywin's extreme brutality gives him short term victories, but ultimately leads to the downfall of his house. It's the whole point of his character. To miss that is completely bizarre and really makes you wonder about the show runners. It's like they've completely missed all the nuance and irony in the books. I used to think the edits they made were just to simplify the story, but now I suspect that some of it is because they don't understand the books.

[Holmbo]

Thanks for the quotes. Such a view is something I would expect from a casual show watcher but not from the creators of the show.
It also makes me wonder about the end game of the story. The books gives the impression that in the end the lesson will be that honor and decency trumps pettiness and short term gain. Lannister, Bolton and Frey all seem to be heading for disaster while the support for the Starks is still there. D&D knows how things will turn out. Could their attitude be a sign that decency and honor is not what will win the game in the end but rather politics and scheming? The way the show is setting up the characters right now I'd say Jon and Sansa will be among the winners in the end (of course the show could turn those expectations on their head at any point). If they do make it out on top perhaps the shows depiction will be that they made it there against all odds with no one supporting them.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Holmbo

[Winnief]

 

The books gives the impression that in the end the lesson will be that honor and decency trumps pettiness and short term gain. Lannister, Bolton and Frey all seem to be heading for disaster while the support for the Starks is still there. D&D knows how things will turn out. Could their attitude be a sign that decency and honor is not what will win the game in the end but rather politics and scheming? The way the show is setting up the characters right now I'd say Jon and Sansa will be among the winners in the end (of course the show could turn those expectations on their head at any point). If they do make it out on top perhaps the shows depiction will be that they made it there against all odds with no one supporting them.

 

 

Perhaps.  Or perhaps the lesson will be that growing existential threats like Dragons and White Walkers just completely re-write the rules of the game.  Though, I wonder if Dark Sansa isn't because they expect her to be pulling off some pretty brilliant, (and devious) scheming of her own which lends credence to my theory that Sansa is the YMBQ. 

 

However, while D&D may have just been too entranced by Charles Dance's work as Tywin, (he certainly was one Magnificent Bastard,) they do seem to understand the villainous and self-destructive nature of the others.  They note that Cersei isn't as smart as she thinks she is, and set up how she's starting to disintegrate under stress.  They showed that Walder Frey was absolutely despicable, that as ruler of Riverrun he isn't accepted by the Small folk, and have already hinted at his downfall not only with Bran's story of the Rat Cook but by Walder's dismissal of the missing Blackfish on the grounds "I have Tywin Lannister," but of course he doesn't have Tywin anymore. 

 

And they certainly haven't pulled their punches with the Bolton's who I actually like on screen better than in the books because they're less over the top and of course because McElhattan has those incredible cold, scary eyes.  They've already made it clear that Ramsay's too big a lunatic for the North to ever accept him as future Warden and that no one other than House Bolton ever wanted the Boltons in charge-yet another good reason to rally behind the Starks.  And let's not forget the reason there are living Stark heirs out there to rally behind is because of the personal devotion they inspired in Osha.  Sansa is able to throw herself upon the mercy of the Lords of the Vale because they were friends of Ned's.  See a pattern there?

 

Plus whatever you can say about what's happening in the South, there has been some remarkable displays of courage, heroism, and nobility at the Wall which D&D have worked hard to emphasize. (Grenn's death was one of the most moving moments of the entire series.) So the message might be that while fighting for personal power is always inevitably ugly, fighting larger threats can have a certain intrinsic honor.  The Crows at the Wall are now arguably the only true knights in Westeros though they wear black rather than shining armor.

 

Now I don't know how they'll do the Northern rebellion or the Battle of Winterfell this season but I for one look forward to seeing it because I do feel like this is one where they've been working to make us care.  They're going to make us suffer through Bolton banners at Winterfell, so it will be all the more satisfying when they get theirs and Rickon is returned.  That's my hope anyway.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Winnief

[Advance35]

The books gives the impression that in the end the lesson will be that honor and decency trumps pettiness and short term gain. Lannister, Bolton and Frey all seem to be heading for disaster while the support for the Starks is still there. D&D knows how things will turn out. Could their attitude be a sign that decency and honor is not what will win the game in the end but rather politics and scheming?

 

 

I never got that impression from the books.    Maybe it was GRRM's statement that the ending would be bitter sweet but I don't think decency and honor will have anything to do with who is left standing at the end of all this.    House Lannister and House Frey will still be around because they have far to many members to become extinct, just certain branches, but in a way they'll win or at least House Frey will because Roslin is now a member of one of the Great Houses and the heir of House Tully is in love with her.   If Walder loses the position of Warden of the Riverlands and it reverts back to Edmure Tully, his blood is still next to inherit.   Whatever comeuppance he get's in a way he still wins.   I remember but I can recall where, that GRRM said his story is supposed to show what people are willing to do for power and what it can do to those around them, I'm guessing the mean't the casualties.    Bittersweet is why I think some of the bad characters WILL survive.   Maybe Melissandre, Littlefinger, Varys and some others maybe.

 

Though, I wonder if Dark Sansa isn't because they expect her to be pulling off some pretty brilliant, (and devious) scheming of her own which lends credence to my theory that Sansa is the YMBQ.

 

 

I thought the way Sansa was played in  S4 was very interesting.    In the book (at least where we left her) he squeamishness is still present in her inner-narrative.    Book!Sansa is icy but she only displays genuine emotion when it comes to her survival, while in the show there is a palatable coldness to her but in 4x07 I thought Sansa was shown to definitely desire revenge against House Lannister in both her conversations with Littlefinger and Robyn.   I just feel like Sansa won't see Cersei again, which is the only reason I don't think of her as the YMBQ.   Though to be fair she doesn't have to see Cersei to scheme against her.

 

I do think LF and Sansa may wind up in extra powerful positions due to the Vale having a large store of resources that other regions just don't have.   The Tyrells are fighting the Iron Born and expending resources to do so, they are also spending resources keeping the Kings Landing afloat.   In the book they will also likely have Dorne and Aegon's forces to contend with.   The only other place with resources others might petition for, is the Vale.    That could make The Vale, Robyn (if he lives), LF and Sansa valuable allies to Dany, Aegon, Stannis, Jon Snow and the Night's Watch (for the war against the Others), and gives them a way to compete against the Lannister/Tyrell regime.

[Winnief]

Well one argument against LF surviving the series, is that prophecy states that Sansa will be the one who takes him down. 

 

I'm not so sure about the continued survival of House Lannister or House Frey; there aren't that many Lannister's left and if/when Casterly Rock is invaded I could very well see them being extinguished entirely, which would serve dramatic irony given that they invented the Castamere effect.  As for House Frey, in some ways their overwhelming numbers are their biggest weakness-we can already see civil war breaking out in the Twins in the books with the Frey's turning on each other like the weasels they resemble and there are a LOT of external threats coming their way too.  It's possible individual Frey's will survive personally, but there's no way they'll still hold the Twins at the end much less Riverrun. 

 

Now arguably, the Frey bloodline could continue through Edmure and Roslin's child, (though, I think Roslin took more from her mother's Rosby side anyway,) but I'm not even 100% certain about that.  THere's been no mention on the show so far about Roslin being pregnant which doesn't mean there never will be but does seem ominous.  I always thought it was entirely possible that both poor Edmure and Roslin might perish, (the latter at the hands of Emmon or LF,) and Sansa will get Riverrun. 

 

Which isn't to say that I think the books message is that good prevails and evil falls, but that evil has a way of fucking things up for themselves just as much as those they try to crush.  And if the ending will be bittersweet well that's inevitable because of how many souls have been lost and how many more good people will still die before it's through as well.  I expect a bittersweet ending not because bad guys will be left standing, but because too few good guys will be. 

[Advance35]

Well one argument against LF surviving the series, is that prophecy states that Sansa will be the one who takes him down.

 

 

I thought that was too ambiguous to pin to LF myself.  It's been a little while since I read ASOS, and I know his sigil is a Titan but was there anything else declarative.   For a while many thought Robyn's doll was the giant and I think even in ASOIAF a cigar can be just a cigar.

 

THere's been no mention on the show so far about Roslin being pregnant which doesn't mean there never will be but does seem ominous.  I always thought it was entirely possible that both poor Edmure and Roslin might perish, (the latter at the hands of Emmon or LF,) and Sansa will get Riverrun.

 

 

I thought we didn't hear anymore about Roslin because the Riverlands story wasn't being picked up at this point.  In order to proceed they would probably have to recast Edmure so they just haven't mentioned anything.   I figure they'll circle back at some point, I think readers and their by the show audience will know the state of all 7 kingdoms by the end of the series.

[Holmbo]

Which isn't to say that I think the books message is that good prevails and evil falls, but that evil has a way of fucking things up for themselves just as much as those they try to crush.  And if the ending will be bittersweet well that's inevitable because of how many souls have been lost and how many more good people will still die before it's through as well.  I expect a bittersweet ending not because bad guys will be left standing, but because too few good guys will be. 

Could be. My post might make it seem like I expect if all to end in rainbows and butterflies. What I meant is that I expect the opinions of the different houses will have plot significance. It seems like the fact that the Stark's still inspire so much loyalty could help them in the end. But since D&D hasn't brought it up it could mean that it actually wont be of much importance because scheming (or dragon's, zombies...) might actually be what gets them back in the game.

 

I would like if in the end it was a super stereotypical happy with Jon on the throne married to Dany or something. But since it's not a fairytale it wouldn't be all that great. Like maybe they had to pardon the Bolton's for some practical reason, or the treaty with the white walkers involves having to give them a bunch of infants each year, or Jon and Dany doesn't even like each other but marries for the alliance or maybe they execute some of the fan favorites for having fought against them at some point.

I remember reading some parts of an interview with GRRM when he mentioned the end of Lord of the Rings where it says something like Aragorn's rule was wise and just, and it made him wonder if he made peace with the orchs, what where the terms? What was his tax policy? Not that I want the ending to be about tax policy, but it seems like whoever is left in the end would have some tricky decisions to make.

[Hecate7]

 But Tywin seemed unaware of that, until ASOS just as he was also unaware that the grandson he was killing tens of thousands for was utterly unfit for the Crown in every possible way and completely incapable of holding it.   Again he only realized the truth in ASOS after the Red Wedding.  Hasn't he been keeping tabs on Cersei or Joffrey from afar all these years?!?  Doesn't do the Lannister's much good to have family on the Iron Throne after all if said family manage to get the throne room burned to the ground. 

Like really he did all those strong arm tactics and spilled all that blood to bring stability to the Seven Kingdoms in the form of...King Joffrey.  I'm sorry but that's just unforgivable no matter whose side you're on.

 

I wondered about that, too. I consider Tywin a villain, but probably the show runners are privy to info we don't have, that in some way mitigates or excuses Tywin's behavior, or sacrifices he's making off-screen, that we don't yet know about. 

 

I think Tywin was involved in the plot to kill Joffrey, because Olenna did say something about "you can thank me later." He knew Tyrion was innocent, but I think he was using this turn of events as an excuse to send Tyrion to the Wall. So, putting Joffrey on the throne was probably never his final objective. I think he intended on King Tommen the Good, all along. And he might have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

I think Tywin was involved in the plot to kill Joffrey, because Olenna did say something about "you can thank me later." He knew Tyrion was innocent, but I think he was using this turn of events as an excuse to send Tyrion to the Wall. So, putting Joffrey on the throne was probably never his final objective. I think he intended on King Tommen the Good, all along. And he might have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.

Tywin being in on the plot to kill Joffrey doesn't make any sense.  It cost him tons, and if he had wanted to get rid of Joffrey, he could have done it in much easier ways.  There's nothing to indicate he knew Tyrion was innocent in the books -- indeed, that's a major contrast between the book and the show.  In the former, the frame job on Tyrion is exceptionally convincing, and even Jaime wonders if he did it.  In the show, virtually the only character who seems to actually think Tyrion did it is Cersei.

[Hecate7]

Tywin being in on the plot to kill Joffrey doesn't make any sense.  It cost him tons, and if he had wanted to get rid of Joffrey, he could have done it in much easier ways.  There's nothing to indicate he knew Tyrion was innocent in the books -- indeed, that's a major contrast between the book and the show.  In the former, the frame job on Tyrion is exceptionally convincing, and even Jaime wonders if he did it.  In the show, virtually the only character who seems to actually think Tyrion did it is Cersei.

I was referring to show Tywin, who does seem to know after the fact pretty much exactly how it went down. As far as it costing him tons, I'm not sure Tywin Lannister, of all people, would worry much about that. He'd make it back one way or another.

 

But you're right about book Tywin--he didn't know about it, and that's kind of sad, when you consider how much spying he pays for.

[John Potts]

I'm pretty sure Tywin was perfectly aware that Tyrion was innocent of Joffrey's death, but a King's death can't be ignored - somebody has to pay for it, and fast. Once Cersei accused Tyrion, he became the perfect fall guy (helped by the fact that Olenna had set him up to be exactly that) - and the fact that it allows Tywin to get rid of the son he hates is just an added bonus. Sure, he could tear up Kings Landing to find the real killer, but for the stability of the throne, he needs it solved now, not at the end of a protracted investigation (like John Arryn's). Tyrion was caught up in a perfect storm and Tywin declined to run against it.

[SeanC]

I'm pretty sure Tywin was perfectly aware that Tyrion was innocent of Joffrey's death

On the basis of what?  He looks guilty, and Tywin is always ready to believe the worst about him.

[Advance35]

Well wasn't Tyrion just collateral damage.   I believe GRRM recently confirmed that Olenna had intended for Sansa to take the fall for regicide.   I think the only one who would have jumped on it if Sansa hadn't run away would have been Cersei and The Tyrells for obvious reasons. 

 

Despite the vibe of seemingly friendly banter between Tywin and Olenna, I thought the show did a good job of showing they were in fact FIERCE enemies.   Tywin had a grudge against House Tyrell since Season 2 where Littlefinger urged that getting revenge on House Tyrell could wait until a later date.   But one got the impression Tywin intended to try and make them pay for supporting Renly.

 

Olenna attempted to Shang-Hai Sansa's claim to Winterfell and The North out from under House Lannister and nearly got away with it.   And came to Kings Landing with the intention of murdering the King.   I don't think she anticipated the domino effect of Tyrion being swept up in the frame job and Tywins murder but I do think she's happy about it in book and will be on the show.

 

I know for time constraints the show can't be stringent with details but sometimes I wish we had more episodes for the sole reason, it would be so cool to see how the Tyrells really do grow to encroach and smother House Lannister's ambitions.   By the conclusion of ASOS I believe the Kings Small Council is split down the middle between Tyrell's and their prominent bannerman and House Lannister.   And at Tywin's funeral we find out that they had gotten Tywin to agree to make a Tyrell relative the Master of Coin.   The Tyrell's were killing the Lannisters both literally and figuratively.

 

The show illustrated the combat between Lannister and Tyrell but their was subtlety too, like when Tywin and Olenna are strolling together in Ep 2 of Season 4 and Olenna pretty much spells out that she knows House Lannister is being swallowed by all of their debt to the Iron Bank and how House Lannister will need House Tyrell for more than just provisions of food and soldiers now.    No surprise that the book was better and other stories couldn't afford to be any more short-changed than they already were but I do miss some of the books subtext and undercurrent.

 

And seeing the show verison of Tywin and Olenna really makes me wonder who would have won that power struggle had Tywin lived.   He was willing to start a war that engulfed all of Westeros over the abduction over a relative that wasn't terribly important to the Lannister power structure and who he on a personal level deeply hated, and Tyrion had only been kidnapped.   It almost makes one shudder to think what Tywin would have attempted to do if he had proof that House Tyrell was behind the murder of Joffrey and framing of Tyrion.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Advance35

[ElizaD]

Set: Dany in the pit, Jorah holding her by the arm, Daario with his sword, Missandei, possibly Tyrion covered by a crew member, dead people in the audience. Looks like the Sons of the Harpy have prepared some kind of massacre; Hizdahr might be involved, or he might have gotten killed already.

Edited November 1, 2014 by ElizaD

[John Potts]

SeanC On the basis of what? He looks guilty and Tywin is always ready to believe the worst about him

 

Because he's not an idiot! He may hate Tyrion and never have a kind word for him, but he does know that Tyrion isn't a fool. If he was going to kill Joffrey, he would have done it when he was acting Hand and used his position to manipulate the new King. Killing him when Tywin (and to a lesser extent, Olenna) are around means he won't gain power, they will.

[SeanC]

Because he's not an idiot! He may hate Tyrion and never have a kind word for him, but he does know that Tyrion isn't a fool. If he was going to kill Joffrey, he would have done it when he was acting Hand and used his position to manipulate the new King. Killing him when Tywin (and to a lesser extent, Olenna) are around means he won't gain power, they will.

He does think Tyrion is a fool (hence, the prostitutes, among other things).  Moreover, Tyrion has a temper.  There's no reason to think Tywin doesn't believe Tyrion did it; if he thought otherwise, he'd be investigating for who actually did it.

[BookEater]

I believe Tywin thought Tyrion was guilty. You only have to observe his over-reaction to Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage, if he thought someone had set up a Lannister, even the family black sheep, he would've come down on them like an avalanche, because nothing presses Tywin's button more than people making fools out of the Lannisters.

[Constantinople]

I think Book Tywin, like a lot of people, believes what he wants to believe.

He wants to believe there's no twincest, so he believes it.

He wants to believe Tyrion poisoned Joffrey, so he beleives that.

But if Tywin thought about it dispassionately, he'd at least have doubts.

As John Potts noted, it would have made more sense for Tyrion to kill Joffrey when Tyrion was acting Hand, becauase Tyrion would have had more control over the situation.

Also, in the book and in the show, it's pure coincidence that Joffrey's goblet comes into Tyrion's possession, however briefly. In the book, it would have been essentially impossible, absent being "appointed" Joffrey's cupbearer, since Tyrion is seated much farther away from Joffrey than in the show.

So you'd have to believe that Tyrion was carrying the poison around for the Seven know how long until a chance arose.

And what kind of idiot would poison the king after being appointed his cupbearer for the duration of the wedding reception?

But Tywin doesn't want to think about that.

[Winnief]

I think you're right Constantinople. 

 

Tywin may believe Tyrion's guilty because it's much more convenient that way-he can have a kangaroo court bring in exactly the verdict he wants and get the whole thing resolved quickly and cleanly and get rid of a son he detests at the same time.  It's win-win.  But to admit the truth, would mean a much harder and messier investigation and if it did lead back to the Tyrell's....well that's the last thing Tywin can afford right now.  He needs the Tyrell support a helluva lot more than he ever needed Tyrion OR Joffrey.   Easier to tell himself Tyrion's guilty just like it was easier to believe that Stannis's letter calling Cersei's children bastards was a lie and that the Starks were 'traitors' despite the (if you think about it,) very strong evidence to the contrary.

[Holmbo]

I think that show Tywin did not think Tyrion was guilty.

My impression is that for Tywin justice is mostly symbolic, i's most important function is to scare any family from fucking with the Lannisters. When Joffrey was killed I think that either Tywin wasn't sure who did it, or he thought it was the Tyrell's but couldn't punish them right then because they needed them. So he goes along with Tyrion being the guilty one because he need a scapegoat. If he believes that the killers are the Tyrell's then he knows that they're not gonna want to tell anyone about it. If it's someone else and they start talking he can kill them then and make it into Tyrion being their accomplice.

 

I think in the show Tywin's judgment is really clouded when it comes to Tyrion because he has a lot of hate for him but he would never admit to himself that he's acting on it because his principles is that the good of the entire family comes before any of the wishes of the individual. So while he would never actually kill Tyrion he does put him into situations where he's likely to die, such as the vanguard in the battle or as accused of regicide. He's hatred for Tyrion is affecting his decisions. He might be telling himself that framing Tyrion is for the good of the family but really he's doing it for his own selfish reasons.

That's my take on his motivations. I'm not sure about book Tywin because we see so little of him and almost only from Tyrion's pow.

[John Potts]

Oh, I absolutely think that Tywin believes it's more important that justice is seen to be done than that the right person is punished and that he sees it is more important to maintain the Tyrell alliance than to keep Tyrion alive (he was, at least, willing to save him from death by sending him to the Wall). I'm also sure he's capable of not seeing what he doesn't want to see (though personally I believe he knew his children were a couple, but for political reasons he had to maintain the "truth" that Joffrey was Robert's son) and that he's always prepared to believe the worst of Tyrion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on what Tywin believed unless Word of God speaks on the issue.

[Avaleigh]

though personally I believe he knew his children were a couple, but for political reasons he had to maintain the "truth" that Joffrey was Robert's son

 

 

I'm actually still undecided about this x amount of years later. When I read the books I got the impression that he didn't know but show Tywin...a couple of scenes with Jaime made me think that maybe he was aware. In particular the conversation where Jaime ends up being disowned I thought that Tywin was all but daring Jaime to tell him what/who it is he really wants in life. They always skirt around the real reason that Jaime joined the KG and I have to think that Tywin didn't question him about it because some part of him knows why Jaime did it.

 

At the same time the scene with Cersei in this past season finale made me question whether or not show Tywin ever really knew until that moment. The level of denial in Tywin there was so apparent that he really might have just refused to accept whatever weird hints he might have observed over the years. That being said, the idea about Cersei and Jaime being open about their relationship in front of Tywin to the point where he could just look at them and know doesn't really seem like it's supported by the show or books. They had to be secretive and they were successful at keeping their relationship hidden for nearly twenty years, probably longer on the show since the twins seem like they're roughly seven years older than their book counterparts. I can't think of a single scene in public in the show or the books where the two characters had a slip or might have looked like a couple to an outsider.

 

The one slip in the books I can think of was of Cersei getting caught talking to Margaery about Tommen's father and it's clear to Margaery that Cersei is talking about Jaime. I'm pretty sure there were other people around the two women in that scene. On the show, there's a small council scene where Littlefinger and Varys have looks on their faces that make it plain that they know but I can't recall the exact context for why the incest comes up. Littlefinger stupidly brings up the incest in front of Cersei and her guards but that wasn't a slip up of her or Jaime. 

 

Anyway the whole point of this is that I got the impression that Jaime and Cersei basically did a decent job of hiding their relationship so when Cersei tells Tywin that he could have just looked at them and he'd know, I wonder how true that really is? Then again, we have a long list of people who know or suspected (Jon Arryn, Ned, Stannis, Littlefinger, Varys, Olenna, Tyrion and that's just off the top of my head.) It seems like those people all know or suspect because of the hair color of the three kids rather than any obvious public displays of affection between Jaime and Cersei.

[SeanC]

Then again, we have a long list of people who know or suspected (Jon Arryn, Ned, Stannis, Littlefinger, Varys, Olenna, Tyrion and that's just off the top of my head.) It seems like those people all know or suspect because of the hair color of the three kids rather than any obvious public displays of affection between Jaime and Cersei.

Yeah, the people who know/suspect don't generally appear to have done so based on their public behaviour; I think only Tyrion may have guessed based on that, but he's far closer to Jaime than most, very intelligent, and not inclined to be blind on that score.  Varys presumably knows because he's got his agents hidden in the walls listening to them bone.  Stannis suspected it based on hair colour, and relayed that suspicion to Jon Arryn and Ned for further investigation based on various objective factors around genetics, etc., before broadcasting the rumour throughout the Seven Kingdoms, which is how Olenna heard about it.  We don't really know how Littlefinger heard about it; he may have guessed beforehand, or he may have just be apprised of Arryn's investigation and made his own evaluation.

[benteen]

It's hard to imagine Tywin not knowing the truth about Jaime and Cersei but he seems to be the kind of man who only sees what he wants to see.  There's a Twilight Zone episode about a man who is so strong-willed that he won't let the others around him accept the truth.  Tywin might not be able to do that as far as others are concerned but I do think he has that "I don't believe it happened, so it didn't" personality.

 

Bran Stark is confirmed out for Season 5.  So much for Stark-related flashbacks, not that D and D are concerned about the Starks...

 

http://winteriscoming.net/2014/11/05/benioff-confirms-bran-stark-season-5/

Edited November 6, 2014 by benteen

[Holmbo]

Bran out?! I can't believe it. No theon bran scene? How could they possibly want to skip that?

Unless they're going not at all through book 4 and 5 this season. That would be a mistake IMO.

[Hecate7]

Bran out?! I can't believe it. No theon bran scene? How could they possibly want to skip that?

Unless they're going not at all through book 4 and 5 this season. That would be a mistake IMO.

So that when we see Bran again, he's 35.

[Winnief]

 

So that when we see Bran again, he's 35.

 

Yeah, but if Bran looks older they can chalk that up to his wizardly transformation.  Hell he might not even look entirely human by the point anyway but be slowly turning into a tree just like Bloodraven did.  Personally I think they're wise to do Bran's mystical training/apprenticeship off screen since it wouldn't have worked well on tv anyway and frankly these last few seasons everyone's been bored with his storyline anyway.  Bring him back when he becomes relevant again-though I suppose they could still have Bran's voice in Theon's head at some point. 

[Dev F]

Dangit. As a Bran fan, I find this disappointing.

 

And am I the only one who finds Benioff's explanation totally incoherent? First of all, they did not in fact catch up to the end of Bran's storyline. Yeah, there's only one DoD chapter left to adapt, but that's only one chapter less than what they had to work with last season, and it's not like there's not still meaty material to explore, what with the flashbacks and all. I also question whether "Using magic to explore multiple locales and historical events" is less cinematic than walking through the woods for a couple seasons.

 

Second, Bran isn't the only character who's almost out of material. That's also true of Brienne and Sansa -- perhaps even more so, since Bran at least has a radical change of venue to lend interest to his scenes. Now, of course, they can invent new material for the ladies, which is what they'll probably end up doing. But they could (and have) done the same thing for Bran, so I'm not sure why he's singled out specifically for the "Sorry, we ran out of story" treatment.

 

Finally, why on Earth does Benioff say that "ideally that wouldn’t have gotten out and it’s unfortunate it did"? It's not like it's an exciting plot twist that a character doesn't appear in the series for a year. I see no downside to the word getting out; viewers who are fans of the character won't be constantly disappointed next season waiting for him to appear, viewers who aren't fans will be glad he's not appearing, and those who are indifferent won't care either way.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Dev F

[Avaleigh]

I also question whether "Using magic to explore multiple locales and historical events" is less cinematic than walking through the woods for a couple seasons.

 

 

I definitely agree with this.

 

That being said I'm guessing/hoping that Bran was cut because his WoW chapters are going to reveal too much too soon for an audience that is still mostly in books four and five. That's the explanation that makes the most sense to me. That and the UnSullied viewers feeling like his story is kind of boring make me think that they were resistant to include Bran this season only to focus on filler and the one chapter from ADWD.

 

This actually makes me feel hopeful about Bran's first chapter in TWoW. Maybe we'll get a surprisingly revealing flashback.

 

I remember there being speculation that the prophecy about Cersei would be something that Bran sees rather than being a dream/flashback of Cersei's and I'm glad that this is turning out not to be the case. I think it's much better to have her all paranoid and thinking about the ghosts from her past. 

 

I am most looking forward to seeing Sansa's story next season but I was very excited about Bran's too because I was sure we'd be getting new material so this is disappointing but at least it gives me some hope about how his story will shape out in TWoW. I wonder if there's anything in particular that Bloodraven wants him to see first or if he's just basically going to let Bran explore on his own while answering any questions Bran might have?

 

BTW has it been confirmed that Trystane is going to be a kind of fusion of Arianne and Aegon? Is the idea that he and Myrcella will try to claim the throne together?

[ElizaD]

This is just a hunch since I don't think there are definitive clues in the books, but I believe that Tywin didn't know about Jaime and Cersei (Show Tywin was probably somewhat less in denial). His fear of being laughed at and his desire to have his children be the great knight and beautiful queen was so strong that he would refuse to see the incest as anything other than slander. I also don't think he's very good when it comes to emotional intelligence: he can terrorize people and manipulate them like chess pieces, but he can't quite put himself in their shoes. That's why he was surprised and furious when Oberyn seized the opportunity to humiliate him and possibly kill Gregor by championing Tyrion. Oberyn had neither forgiven nor forgotten the outrage of Elia's death and because Tywin couldn't see that he ended up being played. So I think it's credible that the twins could have fooled him. He never really understood them anyway: Jaime is more idealistic and Cersei wilder than he knew. Kevan, on the other hand, seems less damaged by Tytos' reputation for ineffectiveness, and so he could put two and two together and admit the unpleasant conclusion was true.

 

Trystane/Myrcella: there's a lot of speculation about how they're going to do the necessary parts of the Aegon plot without Aegon, but I doubt anything will be clear until the episode in which Show Doran reveals whatever his true goals are. It's possible that the Sand Snakes have an initial plot to crown Myrcella and make Trystane her consort, but the report about Jaime meeting the kids (maybe around 5x05ish?) and the apparently peaceful 5x09 scene of them chatting together makes me wonder whether Show Myrcella even gets injured.

 

Bran out?! I can't believe it. No theon bran scene? How could they possibly want to skip that?
Unless they're going not at all through book 4 and 5 this season. That would be a mistake IMO.

 

I feel like I have no idea how they're going to do the Greyjoy/Bolton/Stannis storyline in S5 or how far they'll go.

 

The big advantage of Maggy the Frog is that she only needs one scene, but I still wonder why they decided to break the no flashbacks rule for the sake of perhaps the most superfluous prophecy in the series, especially after all the setup for Cersei vs. Margaery in seasons 3+4 that established plenty of good reasons why Cersei would move against her and made the prophecy even more superfluous than it was in the books. Of course it involves a Lannister, but Cersei was guaranteed to get plenty of big scenes this season even without the prophecy.

[Avaleigh]

Maybe the show prophecy will have something extra in it? I agree that it's disappointing that the show is breaking it's no flashback rule for this thing since it's so weak and made me roll my eyes when I first read it. It's just unnecessary to me and I feel like Cersei's character would have been better without throwing that in there because it almost feels like it wasn't something that GRRM originally had in the cards when he was writing her character in the first three books. If absolutely nothing else you'd think she'd at least have been all about having more than three kids with the books telling us that she'd tried but hasn't been able to give birth to another living child. Just something from back then to show that the prophecy was on her mind.

 

One small thing I hope they'll change even though I doubt they will is Cersei's decision to share this prophecy with not one but two people she's just recently become acquainted with as opposed to just keeping it to herself and allowing it to torment her in private. It never made any sense to me why she'd tell Taena or Qyburn. I don't even think she had the excuse of being drunk when she told Qyburn.

 

I'm concerned that Melisandre isn't going to have much to do next season especially if they end up cutting the business with Alys Karstark. Mel hasn't really had a major impact on the story since season 2. I feel like something needs to progress on this front particularly for the Unsullied who don't fully know how...weird she is for lack of a better way to put it. There's some serious stuff going on with her and I feel like the show has only scratched the surface. The shadowbaby, the flame reading, the attempt to kill Gendry and that's about it. The ruby isn't as much of a thing on the show since she's shown without it in the tub (this will be annoying if it turns out that the ruby is what allows her to glamour her appearance as the books heavily suggest), she's shown eating like a normal person (for the purpose of the show I think it would have been useful to comment how she doesn't eat like a normal person), Unsullied don't know that she barely needs sleep, they know nothing of her past as a slave, there's no indication yet that her powers have grown stronger now that she's at the Wall, no hint that she's probably very, very old, etc. I don't even think the Unsullied know that Asshai where she claims to be from is this crazy weird and scary place that hardly anybody goes to outside of the people who trade in the port and even they probably don't venture much into the city proper. I'd like it if the show would use her character to give us some good background info on AAR, what she knows of the Others/WW and the Long Night, what she knows about dragons, etc. 

 

If the show does make Trystane a kind of substitute for Aegon is it then more or less likely that he could indeed turn out to be the real Aegon? In the books I'm convinced that Aegon is a fake but on the show I can see it going either way.

[Brn2bwild]

I saw this tweet referenced on Winteriscoming.net about Michelle Fairley (and Lady Stoneheart).  Do you think it's real, or is someone trolling us?

[SeanC]

It's a confirmed fake.

[Brn2bwild]

It's a confirmed fake.

 

Seemed too good to be true.  Damn.

[Constantinople]

Maybe the show prophecy will have something extra in it? I agree that it's disappointing that the show is breaking it's no flashback rule for this thing since it's so weak and made me roll my eyes when I first read it. It's just unnecessary to me and I feel like Cersei's character would have been better without throwing that in there because it almost feels like it wasn't something that GRRM originally had in the cards when he was writing her character in the first three books. If absolutely nothing else you'd think she'd at least have been all about having more than three kids with the books telling us that she'd tried but hasn't been able to give birth to another living child. Just something from back then to show that the prophecy was on her mind.

In the show, Cersei did have more than 3 children, at least if she wasn't lying to Catelyn when consoling Catelyn about Bran's "fall" while climbing. Cersei said her first child was a boy with black hair who died from fever.

If I recall, Catelyn said she didn't know about that, but it seems a little unlikely that she wouldn't know about the birth and death of the heir to the throne. I imagine the entire realm, or at least the nobility of the realm, would know.

[elzin]

I'm realizing I'm not looking forward to next season much.  Last season went off the rails in so many ways that I don't know if D&D can put the train back on the track.  I don't mind changes, and we bookwalkers know there is a lot of filler that can be easily cut from books 4 & 5, but the nature of the changes concern me. The more I read this thread and stuff elsewhere, the more worried I am. One little bit I keep coming across on tumblr is if the tagline for S4 was "The North Remembers," cutting out Stoneheart completely undermines that.  Like you can't use that to promote your show and leave out the Remembers-ist character in the books.  What did we see that indicated anyone remembers, other than fellow anguished book readers complaining after the episode aired?

 

Most shows start to slip by S5, so GOT is hardly unique in that. Adaptations rarely make everyone happy. It just seems that this is just too far gone now, like they're more interested in making the series their own instead of doing what makes it good.  Staying faithful doesn't automatically make it good, but at least the themes would stay intact, and I don't see the themes any more. All I see is bonus rape and boobs.

[Holmbo]

I understand your concerns Elzins, I too have some doubts about next season.

I think though that it's too early to judge the changes and eliminations in the show yet. Most stuff that happened as a result of the red wedding has not had an impact on the plot yet in the book. Like the northern lords that joined up with Stannis has not fought against anyone yet, the bwb and lady stonehearth has not brought on any game change or killed any major character yet. I expect D&D to bring in the stuff that is needed for the overall plot and make major cuts in the rest for pacing and economy of characters. Since we don't know for sure where the books are going we don't know yet what they need to keep or not. I was ok with most changes done in season 4. Really the only changes that I minded were the ones where I felt they tried to force stuff from the book in where it did not work due to other changes they made, like the consensual-by-the-end scene and Shae betraying Tyrion.

For next season I'm not in particular looking forward to Dorne (though of course I hope I'll be proven wrong) but I'm excited about a lot of other stuff, like Arya in Bravos, Cersei, Margaery, Tommen drama in KL and stuff at the wall.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Holmbo

[Pete Martell]

If this is true, Myranda will get the fake Arya story.

 

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/game.of.thrones.season.5.spoilers.myrand.pretend.arya.stark/42929.htm

 

I had a feeling Jeyne Poole wouldn’t appear in the show, as they had two full seasons of Bolton/Snow material and no real hint of her, but I don’t understand why they are choosing Myranda.

 

The only time viewers have known Myranda, she’s assisted in raping and castrating Theon, and hunting down and murdering other women.

 

Now they could switch this and say that once she’s put into the Arya role, she becomes Ramsay’s victim. They could say she was Ramsay’s victim all along. But will they do that when they’ve had two seasons to make us see this side of her and never have?

 

Will they instead decide to say that she is a happy or willing partner in this scheme, and just eliminate the rape portions of the story entirely? Just have Theon’s story be about his own breaking away, not about Jeyne?

 

On the one hand, I’m not going to stomp my foot and say, “How dare you take rape scenes away,” because of course I don’t want to see this. I’m not going to say I need to see rape for Theon’s character development. And I don’t think it makes Theon selfish or bad if he breaks away for himself, not because of anyone else.

 

It’s just that the story potential of Theon saving another person, protecting another person, is a great transformation moment for the character, is one of the strongest-written character arcs of any in ASOIAF. Will we not get that now? Will he just be threatened/tortured and eventually run away?

 

Will we just sort of get another season of, “Ramsay’s not THAT bad”? If we do, then will viewers really root against Roose losing control of the North? Are we supposed to root against Roose losing control of the North?

 

If they do give Myranda Jeyne’s story, then, yes, that would also show Theon’s strength (saving someone who did terrible things to him), but does that mean they think literally any woman can have this role, and it’s not relevant? Will they suggest that Myranda deserves what happens to her (which she doesn’t, even if her own crimes are horrific)? Or will they just have her there as a generic victim whose sole purpose is to be saved and will never matter in the narrative otherwise?

 

I don’t feel like the show has done a bad job with Theon’s story, especially compared to some other story arcs on the show, but I have absolutely no idea where any of this is going, and I’m not entirely sure they do either.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Pete Martell

[SeanC]

That article cites no sources, so I don't think there's anything to it.

[Pete Martell]

I really hope you're right.

 

It's the lack of Jeyne mentions + the decision to edit out those scenes last season that seemed to imply a bad end for her (her slapping him) which make me wonder if it might be true. That and I'm not sure what they'd be bringing her back for otherwise, unless it's just as someone Ramsay screws around with on the side.

[Avaleigh]

It would have been so much easier and been a better story if they'd had Jeyne Poole in it from the beginning instead of focusing on a character like Ros. Hopefully that story isn't true though.

 

Will we just sort of get another season of, “Ramsay’s not THAT bad”?

 

 

I didn't realize people felt this way. Sure, Ramsay is toned down from the books but on the show he's still about as awful as they come. He and Joffrey are tied I think in terms of the shows most miserable douchebags. The Tickler was horrible too but he wasn't much of a character IMO. 

 

Characters like Tywin, Roose, and Littlefinger qualify as evil but they're also incredibly compelling so to me that makes them fun to watch even when they're being assholes. Ramsay...he's just no end unpleasant and actually looks psychotic in pretty much all of his scenes so I've never personally had the impression that show!Ramsay isn't all that bad.   

 

If we do, then will viewers really root against Roose losing control of the North? Are we supposed to root against Roose losing control of the North?

 

 

I don't think that the Unsullied will forget that Roose helped kill Robb. That being said I kind of want Roose to stick around for as long as possible because I find him fascinating. Without Tywin and with the unlikelihood that they'll include Euron, Roose and Littlefinger are the last of the villains that I really care about. With Cersei it's different because I feel like I already know what's going to happen to her. (Plus on the show I don't exactly see her as a full on villain.) With Roose and Littlefinger I feel like there are a lot of possibilities on the table as far as what their ultimate fate will be.

 

Maybe it's because I think the Lannisters are more interesting than the Starks** overall but I prefer to have more time with them in places like KL over the North. Robb's story on the show was mostly boring to me TBH. I can think of three episodes where I was really invested in what was going on. Seeing him and Catelyn deal with the news about Ned, the execution of Karstark, and the RW. Otherwise he and Talisa and their romance bored me to tears .

 

I also disagree that the RW isn't still being felt on the show. I thought Olenna's comments in season 4 at Joffrey's wedding made it apparent that the RW was definitely a big deal and the faces in the crowd at the wedding during the performance of the dwarves made it clear to me that the RW isn't being treated as though it has been forgotten about. 

 

I'm fine either way with LS but I honestly don't think she's needed to put forth the idea that the North remembers. Manderly--I can totally understand why they haven't introduced him yet. As far as the showing more of the North I'm not sure what else there is that's necessary at this point. Jon/The Wall/Bran/CotF/Others--this stuff interests me way more than LS hanging random Freys.

 

Meanwhile I can understand why the Lannister characters get the attention that they do. I think four of the Lannister characters are the most fascinating in the entire series, they have a lot of good lines, a lot humor, complexity, interesting plot developments, etc. I disagree with D&D's claim that Tywin isn't evil and I agree that Tywin is going to be a huge part of the downfall of his house but I think I disagree with the idea that the RW was the worst thing he ever did in terms of damaging his house. I think the bulk of the distaste from the smallfolk over the RW is still for the Freys at the end of the day. Among the nobles it's a little different but the Tyrells don't seem to be feeling any heat yet for willingly getting in bed with the Lannisters and it isn't as though the alliance didn't exist prior to the RW. It hadn't been solidified through the marriage but by the time the RW happened everyone knew that the Lannister/Tyrell alliance was a thing and even after the RW the Tyrells go through with the union so they make it seem like they're fine with what happened. Similarly, the Martells didn't pull the plug on Myrcella and Trystane because of the RW. It seems like the Freys absorbed most of the bad PR and that the Lannisters are still mostly hated by the smallfolk for other reasons. (During Cersei's WoS for example hardly anyone (are there any shouts in reference to it?) is thinking about the injustice of the RW.) I do think that the RW was something that could have been weathered had there been friendship and solidarity within the Lannister family. I think their relationships with each other are going to be the main thing to bring about the downfall of the House. Ultimately, I think there are too many Lannisters for them to be done as a Great House but I definitely think they're going to take a huge hit in TWoW and ADoS. 

 

**I think with the Starks I think it irritates me that there is this vibe of them being so good and almost perfect like they're this idealized version of a Westerosi family and I don't really see it that way. The self righteousness from some of them bothers me too. 

 

[Pete Martell]

 

I didn't realize people felt this way. Sure, Ramsay is toned down from the books but on the show he's still about as awful as they come. He and Joffrey are tied I think in terms of the shows most miserable douchebags. The Tickler was horrible too but he wasn't much of a character IMO. 

 

Characters like Tywin, Roose, and Littlefinger qualify as evil but they're also incredibly compelling so to me that makes them fun to watch even when they're being assholes. Ramsay...he's just no end unpleasant and actually looks psychotic in pretty much all of his scenes so I've never personally had the impression that show!Ramsay isn't all that bad.   

 

I don't think that the Unsullied will forget that Roose helped kill Robb. That being said I kind of want Roose to stick around for as long as possible because I find him fascinating. Without Tywin and with the unlikelihood that they'll include Euron, Roose and Littlefinger are the last of the villains that I really care about. With Cersei it's different because I feel like I already know what's going to happen to her. (Plus on the show I don't exactly see her as a full on villain.) With Roose and Littlefinger I feel like there are a lot of possibilities on the table as far as what their ultimate fate will be.

 

Maybe it's because I think the Lannisters are more interesting than the Starks** overall but I prefer to have more time with them in places like KL over the North. Robb's story on the show was mostly boring to me TBH. I can think of three episodes where I was really invested in what was going on. Seeing him and Catelyn deal with the news about Ned, the execution of Karstark, and the RW. Otherwise he and Talisa and their romance bored me to tears .

 

Ramsay is obviously a bad guy, but I don't know if the show has gotten across that he is evil and vile, or even necessarily that he's Roose's weak link. A lot of popular fandom reaction to what he did to Theon ended up being "dick in a box" jokes, and I don't think season 4 did that much to show him in a worse light. Other than his hunting and killing the woman in early season 4, I feel like most of what he did may be interpreted by the general fan as just being typical of many of the show's damaged characters. Even the "Reek" material is somewhat undercut because the show takes a lighter touch with the Thramsay relationship, and the chemistry between Alfie and Iwan, along with Iwan's looks and charisma, also blur the lines somewhat. It's clearly still a disgusting, sick relationship, but I'm not sure if the horrors of it completely come across. 

 

I don't want Roose to go anywhere for a while either, as I think he's fascinating (moreso than Tywin, who, for me, only had one really strong season [season 3], and otherwise was mostly just the stern father who took up time judging his children or having tedious conversations with Arya), but I don't think they've done much to show him as being dangerous or damaging for the North. If it gets to a point where we see Stannis fighting to free the North from the Boltons, will show-only viewers care? Will they even see him as being any worse than Stannis? 

 

Other than Sansa, all the Starks I cared about are gone or may as well be gone (Bran). I've been bored and/or annoyed by Arya ever since season 2 when Walking Through Westerors kicked into gear, and being one of the few fans who doesn't care about The Hound just kicked that up a few dozen more notches. I do think keeping the Starks alive as a symbol is important, but I didn't mind the idea of the Lannisters being more prominent. The problem for me was that season 4's Lannister material felt so flat (aside from Joffrey's death), and going forward, I don't care about Tyrion all that much, and I no longer care that much about Jaime. I also feel like the show has no idea how to characterization Cersei or Jaime. I feel like I mostly care about Cersei because of the occasional strong episode and because of Lena Headey. 

 

So going into season 5, the Lannisters I'm interested in are mostly Cersei and Tommen. Which is a problem, as huge swathes of the material for them will be Tyrion and Jaime elsewhere, likely with a rushed saga of Cersei going batshit.

 

Most of the material I actually want to see involves the North, which is why the whole Myranda-is-Jeyne thing really threw me. I just hope it's not true.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Holmbo]

I don't think myranda will be fake arya cause they casted an underaged girl as "winterfell worker". What other possible role could she have than fake arya?

Though after making lots of comments in places about bran definitely being in season 5 only to see that change has made me a bit less confident in my assessments.

http://watchersonthewall.com/mishael-lopes-cardozo-cast-game-thrones-season-5/

[benteen]

Like I said, it doesn't have to be Jeyne Poole.  So long as Fake Arya is an innocent (preferably one with ties to Winterfell), that's all that matters.  It's too important to Theon's storyline.

 

D and D have done well when they've used existing characters to take the place of other characters.  Think Gendry in Season 3.  But if they actually do have Myranda as Fake Arya, then it is a bad decision and a lazy decision.  If that was always the plan, then Myranda shouldn't have been portrayed as such a sadist.  It would be lazy in the sense of wondering how hard would it really be to find a local, unknown actress and cast her in the part?

Edited November 14, 2014 by benteen

[loki567]

Let's try and figure out some storylines here:

 

Cersei, King's Landing: pretty much the same? With the exception of no Jaime and I don't believe a Taena has been cast. But there will be flashbacks and it will end with a walk of shame. Sounds to me like that the Faith Militant could have a bigger role. I wonder if the flashbacks will simply be the prophecy or if they might use it to set up later reveals like R+L = J.

 

Jaime in Dorne: really dreading this one. Basically sounds like the Caster's Keep plot from last year spread out through nine or ten episodes. Filming reports have Jaime there the entire season, likely discarding his character development from AFFC. No Arianne, No Quentyn, and I'm really nervous about how the Sand Snakes are portrayed. And another big romance between Myrcella and Trystane. IMO, the constant attempt at romantic storylines has always been a pretty big weak spot of GoT.

 

Arya: pretty much the same? I know Tom Wlaschiha will likely take the role of the Kindly Man and I imagine that Arya will probably run into another cast member at Braavos but the same basic story beats and ending with Arya's released chapter from TWOW. 

 

Sansa, Littlefinger, Brienne: I'm guessing Brienne and Sansa material considering the same filming locations and Sansa not keeping her identity a secret. Could be some good material here, Sansa torn between two mentors, scheming Littlefinger and Brienne as a surrogate for Catelyn. 

 

i really think we could still get a LS-appearance at the end of the season. I think they didn't want to set up last year and do nothing with it this season when they already planned to put Jaime and Brienne in Dorne and the Vale, respectively. I think they'll set it up in the finale and then have some sorta of payoff next season. 

 

The Wall: I got no fucking clue. We know that the LC election is this season, but I hope to God they don't drag it out all season long. But where do you really go after that? Will Jon's stabbing end the season? The wildlings inside the Wall? What about Sam? Is he making the trip to become a Maester? Have they cut that? Is Stannis and Davos spending the entire year at the Wall? I really think setting up "The Watchers on the Wall," as the big episode nine moment was a huge mistake. I think Jon and Stannis' plotlines for season four and five would have benefited a lot from those two meeting sooner. It put the writers in a situation where they needed to create a lot of pointless filler to fill time to get to episode nine. Which leads me to a worse case scenario for season six.

 

I'm worried that they might fall into the exact same trap when it comes to Meeren and Stannis's battle against the Boltons, they might feel the need to drag their feet storytelling-wise in order to have their big battle in episode nine, season six. And because of that, the Northern and Meereen stories will really suffer in order to slow them down enough to get them to that point. I hope I'm wrong but that's my fear. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by loki567