Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Winnief]

I know what you mean.  Heck frankly at this point it sort of trumps believability to think that *Cersei* will survive long enough for a Jaime/Cersei reunion the way she's going but never underestimate Martin's ability to tip the scales.  Cersei might somehow make it to Book Seven, (even if her children don't.)

[Hecate7]

I don't mind Jaimie's Riverlands storyline being derailed because I fear that is going to be a jump the shark moment for his story.   There is NO way he should survive Brienne's trap and meeting Lady Stoneheart.   No deals, No manuevers, no promise to find Sansa (he made that promise when she was alive), a meeting with Stoneheart in the Riverlands should result in his death, if that not going to happen (I question what contrived way Jaimie will get out of it) than I'd rather not see it in the show.

She is an undead zombie. Exactly how was he supposed to return Sansa to her? She doesn't even have a fixed address!

 

As for returning her to her next of kin, a)that was not the promise, b) let's look at that list, shall we? Lysa Arryn tried to kill Sansa, which was inevitable. Anyone who had spent much time with Lysa around the time of Jon Arryn's death would have noticed. Tyrion noticed. Sadly, Sansa DID end up at the Eyrie, and now Littlefinger is her uncle, her legal guardian, and her "protector." He is also the owner of a brothel, and the unscrupulous murderer of quite a little pile of people. His "love" didn't do Catelyn any good at all--caused a war and the complete destruction of her family, in fact.  So his now incestuous love for Sansa is only going to serve to make him impatient for her to come to his bed. If she demurs, I expect bad things will happen to her.

 

Sansa's other aunt/uncle are no better: Uncle Tully is in a dungeon and Auntie Roslin is Walder Frey's daughter, and part of the plot to murder Robb.

 

I think Jaime has an airtight excuse here, frankly. But Catelyn is an undead zombie and unapt to listen. So, I'm cool with him killing her. I'm also cool with a scene in which he lays out the situation, and offers to lead a party into the Twins and slaughter the Freys to a man, although with one hand it's a suicide mission. I do not think he will be killed by Lady Stoneheart and her gang. One way or another, that dream he had of fighting in the catacombs with Brienne is going to come true.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

She’s not pregnant; Jaime asked her point-blank and she said she wasn’t.  As part of her family’s deal with the Lannisters, she could get remarried but only after 2 years so there wouldn’t be any doubt that any subsequent kids were Robb’s.   Robb married her because he took her virginity and felt it was the honorable thing to do.  Again, with the “honor before reason will kill you” theme.

Of course, there’s a conspiracy theory that the young girl Jaime met was an impostor since his PoV description of her differed from Catelyn’s.  If that’s true, the real Jayne could be in hiding, pregnant with a main character for Game of Thrones: The Next Generation.

 

Also, people lie. If you were carrying Robb Stark's baby, would you tell Jaime Lannister? Remember, she doesn't know Jaime. She knows "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

Edited October 21, 2014 by Hecate7

[benteen]

UnCat wouldn't give Brienne the benefit of the doubt so I can't see her giving Jaime that benefit either.

 

Sadly, D and D have been ignoring the non-Wall North since Season 2.  We've haven't seen a loyal Northern bannerman since Umber that was loyal to the Starks.  Just people who betrayed him like Bolton and Karstark.  I get the limitations of the Starks in the books with Arya, Sansa, and Bran's storylines but I wish they would give more attention to the North.

[ElizaD]

Photos of Daznak's Pit: Tyrion/Hizdahr/Dany/Missandei sitting with Daario behind them, no Barristan or Grey Worm, Jorah fighting.

 

It's speculated that Tyrion is Hizdahr's slave (he's wearing his colors and positioned next to him on a lower chair like Missandei next to Dany). Barristan/Grey Worm could be off chasing Harpy supporters so that Barristan can't recognize Tyrion yet (if they're trying to hide his identity from Dany), but Dany pretty much has to recognize Jorah and might jump in the pit to protect him.

 

Even though I'm not the biggest fan of Dany and certainly not of Show Tyrion, these two characters sharing a scene feels like a huge moment.

 

I think Jaime has an airtight excuse here, frankly. But Catelyn is an undead zombie and unapt to listen. So, I'm cool with him killing her. I'm also cool with a scene in which he lays out the situation, and offers to lead a party into the Twins and slaughter the Freys to a man, although with one hand it's a suicide mission. I do not think he will be killed by Lady Stoneheart and her gang. One way or another, that dream he had of fighting in the catacombs with Brienne is going to come true.

 

To me, it said a lot about Jaime's true nature that his reaction to news that the 12-year-old hostage he had sworn to return to her mother (still alive at the time) had been married to Tyrion was to think about how Tyrion would be happy to have a pretty child bride again (he knows it worked out so well for child bride #1): Jaime didn't give a damn about his oath then or how Sansa might feel about the plan to chain her to his family and rape her till she got pregnant.

 

Stoneheart is perfectly capable of listening, but the facts aren't in Jaime/Brienne's favor: she actually treats Brienne well considering how everything but story logic and Brienne's POV thoughts (which only readers can take into account) says that Brienne has either betrayed her for the oathbreaker Jaime or been duped by her crush. Brienne gets a chance to save her companions by proving she's still loyal and a trial that's fairer than the kind of execution "Goldenhand the Just" congratulated himself for ordering in the Riverlands. Even though Jaime is an entertaining, witty POV, everything he does suggests to Westeros that he hasn't even tried to keep his oath. After he returned to KL to find Sansa gone (and since it no longer required action or sacrifice on his part, suddenly developed the wish to feel like he'd kept that oath by sending Brienne after her with half her family sword), he proceeded to take up arms against the Tullys in violation of his oath and threatened to have Edmure's newborn killed. Jaime himself chose to wreck any reason Stoneheart might have had to believe he had ever intended to help Sansa. It's a pretty weak atonement for attempted child murder if you can give up on making any effort the moment there's no cost-free, obvious solution available: when Jaime actually cared, he got Tyrion away from danger in KL. If Jaime kills Stoneheart, he'll only prove that he doesn't want to atone for his crimes in any way that inconveniences him.

[Advance35]

She is an undead zombie. Exactly how was he supposed to return Sansa to her? She doesn't even have a fixed address!

 

Never said "return her" or give her to "kin".   I just don't want to see Jaimie sleazing some story like "I'll find her and bring her some place safe", we saw that and Catelyn fell for that and what followed was the murder of her eldest son, the fall of the Northern rebellion, her own murder and what's looking like the probably extinction of House Tully.   For him to weasel out now...........ya, scrap the whole thing Showrunners if that's what the books have in store.  But I'm one of the few that has never liked Jaimie or been moved by his "road to redemption", for me there has been far too much suffering as a result of his actions.

 

I know what you mean.  Heck frankly at this point it sort of trumps believability to think that *Cersei* will survive long enough for a Jaime/Cersei reunion the way she's going but never underestimate Martin's ability to tip the scales.  Cersei might somehow make it to Book Seven, (even if her children don't.)

 

I can actually buy Cersei surviving since I think House Tyrell needs her, at least in terms of appearing to have a connection to the Throne.  If House Lannister falls, House Tyrell is chained to them through the Tommen/Margaery marriage.    And though their soldiers are depleted, the Lannister's still have some muscle as evidenced by the meeting between Kevan Lannister, Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly.   It's noted that in the throne room, A host of Lannister soldiers are lined up on one side and a host of Tyrell guards are lined up on the other.

 

Even though I'm not the biggest fan of Dany and certainly not of Show Tyrion, these two characters sharing a scene feels like a huge moment.

 

I'm in NO WAY a Dany fan but I too am looking forward to this.   It ties together characters that have been scattered helter skelter.   I think it could definitely resurge my interest in her storyline, something the book hasn't been able to to do for some time.    When season 5 is finished there will be 20 episodes left for the ASOIAF adaptation.   Sqweeeeeeeeeeeeee.   I know it's not GRRM and they have faltered in some areas but I will actually get to find out who ends up on the Iron Throne, I will get to see the fates I'm most curious about Baelish, Varys, Sansa, House Tyrell.   For this alone the showrunners will always have my gratitude.

[WearyTraveler]

So his now incestuous love for Sansa is only going to serve to make him impatient for her to come to his bed. If she demurs, I expect bad things will happen to her.

 

As icky as I find Littlefinger's attraction to Sansa, there's no incest involved here, as he's not really her family and she wasn't raised as his niece (i.e. she didn't spend years and years under the belief that he was her uncle).

[Winnief]

I'm in NO WAY a Dany fan but I too am looking forward to this.   It ties together characters that have been scattered helter skelter.   I think it could definitely resurge my interest in her storyline, something the book hasn't been able to to do for some time.    When season 5 is finished there will be 20 episodes left for the ASOIAF adaptation.   Sqweeeeeeeeeeeeee.   I know it's not GRRM and they have faltered in some areas but I will actually get to find out who ends up on the Iron Throne, I will get to see the fates I'm most curious about Baelish, Varys, Sansa, House Tyrell.   For this alone the showrunners will always have my gratitude.

 

 

Bingo.  Frankly I'm grateful the show is willing to change some things from AFFC and ADWD because that's when if felt like Martin started to lose his way, (and all his comments about his plans for Dany in TWoW aren't making me hopeful.) 

[Hecate7]

 

 If Jaime kills Stoneheart, he'll only prove that he doesn't want to atone for his crimes in any way that inconveniences him.

 

 

 

No, it will prove he wants to stay alive. If a Zombie is trying to kill you, you don't just stand there and let them do it.

 

1) He never vowed to return Sansa to her next of kin, only to Catelyn Stark, and Catelyn was dead before he even got a chance to try! Sansa's next of kin suck, and Tyrion does not, in Jaime's estimation. His reaction to the Tyrion/Sansa wedding reflects not simply his nature, but his culture. Tyrion was 13 when he was married the first time. It is NORMAL for girls to marry a year or two after they "flower," and not particularly unusual for them to marry the same year. Only people who question everything, like, say, Tyrion, ever wonder if it's appropriate.

 

2) Of all the people Sansa could have been with, Tyrion was probably her best bet, and Jaime knew that. Tyrion would have hired who he had to hire, to keep her safe. Of course Jaime isn't worried about Sansa being with Tyrion.

 

3) Catelyn doesn't care about Sansa's age, so why should Jaime? Only Tyrion ever cared about Sansa's age, or protecting her innocence. With Sansa in hand, Catelyn would have married her to the Freys. Since she didn't have her, she married off ARYA, who is two years younger! This is not about a mother wanting to protect and keep her underaged daughter. This is about wanting her property (Sansa) so she can dispose of it as she likes, and try to win a war with it.

 

4) The same audience who keep wanting to condemn Tyrion for being married to Sansa, yet not consummating the marriage, can't WAIT to see Arya in bed with Gendry or Sansa in bed with Littlefinger or SweetRobin. Some people are excitedly counting down the minutes til her union with Littlefinger or Harry the Heir, even though only a few weeks ago she was too young. And they vilify the guy who refused, under extreme pressure, to rape her, while they want to canonize the guy who won't hesitate for a minute to do so, with absolutely no urging or pressure whatsoever.

 

5) Littlefinger is her uncle by marriage, which makes it incest. That's all I was saying. But she'd better be prepared to keep him happy, or she could find herself sold like Roz. And keeping him happy is going to involve some very unsavory things.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Hecate7

[BlackberryJam]

If I remember correctly, at the end of Dance, Jaime hasn't been heard from in weeks.  If LSH had killed him, I suspect we'd know.

 

On the other hand, I find it hard to buy that Jaime, who knows Brienne well, doesn't know immediately that she's lying or that she doesn't tell him the truth sometime before they get to LSH.  So this idea that they actually get to LSH in the way LSH wants (Brienne bringing Jaime to slaughter) doesn't seem to fit with either Jaime (he's now smarter than the average bear and has come into his own as a leader of men) and Brienne (honest, honorable and in love with Jaime.)  Not to mention, the Hound having Sansa and wanting Jaime to come alone is a STUPID lie.

 

Now whether Jaime or Brienne (my money is on Brienne for the Aerys parallel) kills LSH, who knows.  But I don't think it's going down as LSH planned.  And Thoros of Myr seems to be there for a reason.  

Edited October 21, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[Avaleigh]

Even though I'm not the biggest fan of Dany and certainly not of Show Tyrion, these two characters sharing a scene feels like a huge moment.

 

 

Yep, pretty much. I'm excited anyway. A little worried but excited. ;-)

 

I do find it odd that Tyrion would just happen to be one of Hizdahr's personal slaves but whatever. He's right there in the royal section and he barely knows this guy? And is obviously untrained as a slave? Obviously I have to give the show the benefit of the doubt but for any normal person in Hizdahr's position I can't see why he'd automatically trust Tyrion to bring him wine or whatever it is that he has Tyrion doing that requires him to be close. I can see Dany taking an interest in Tyrion upon learning that he's from Westeros but I wonder what the story will be behind Tyrion going to Hizdahr. Maybe it's to put Tyrion in a position where he saves Dany from eating something poisonous? 

 

I go back and forth on Lady Stoneheart. I sort of dislike the character because it's basically the worst version of a character that I was already on the fence about so I'm fine with the show not including her if that's what ends up happening. It's great that she's killing certain Freys but there's no evidence that they're all bad and I feel like having the name would be enough to condemn a person in her eyes. I didn't like the way that she was going to kill Pod, I think she's just destructive in general and there's already going to be enough of that with the threat of the Others. At the same time I so much like the idea of Littlefinger coming into contact with her one day that suffering through her other appearances might well be worth it if this ends up being her ultimate purpose. I also like the idea of Arya seeing Lady Stoneheart and having Arya finally maybe snapping out of her killkillkill mode. That would make LS worth it too. I would love it if she were able to be the one to remind Arya that she still has it in her to love and be human. Just to be clear I don't mean that LS would personally say something to encourage Arya to not let the hatred consume her, I just mean that Arya would see what Lady Stoneheart is all about and realize herself that she doesn't want to become what LS is.

 

Is the North really that underrepresented on the show? I feel like the fact that they made the penultimate episode of last season about the Wall show that they care. The finale was pretty North focused too what with the stuff with Mance, Jon, Stannis, and Melisandre. Bran had a nice chunk of the finale too. I like that we get a lot of Roose Bolton. I find that they focus too much on Theon and Ramsay but am looking forward to all of the Ghost of Winterfell stuff assuming they keep that. I also like what they did with the Others last season. The Night's King stuff provided a lot of interesting discussion and I saw a few decent theories that I hadn't come across before.

 

Which loyal bannermen should we have seen do you think? It isn't too late to introduce the Manderlys and I'm assuming we're going to get the Karstarks next season. The show can't help the Edmure actor being unavailable so I understand why there hasn't been follow up with him yet regarding his fate or whether or not his kid is a boy or a girl. Plus, it kind of gives the feeling of the North being overrun with doucheabgs at the moment now that Robb and so many of his men are gone. This is the Bolton Reign of Terror and I'm hoping that it's going to feel awesome on the show when Jon decides that he's going to make shit right in the North by getting rid of that asshole Ramsay once and for all.

 

Plus they would have needed to cut things and apart from Septgate and the beetle speech I was happy with most of what was done last season. I've said it a thousand times--they need more episodes per season.

 

Is it looking like Dany and Drogon's flight will take place in episode 9? I'm hoping the WoS is in episode 8 so that there's something of a WoW preview for Cersei. I can't decide what scene I'd like it to end on but I think I'd like it to be a break from it being some triumph of Dany's so maybe it could end with Jon being stabbed so that the audience can have a bit of a wait like we all had. Either that or maybe a scene of something Other related. 

[jjjmoss]

What's a WoW? Not World of Warcraft I'm assuming.

[Which Tyler]

The winds of winter - title of the next book

[SeanC]

1) He never vowed to return Sansa to her next of kin, only to Catelyn Stark, and Catelyn was dead before he even got a chance to try!

The spirit of the oath was to free Sansa, as he acknowledges.  The fact that his family succeeded in murdering Catelyn is not relevant.

 

It is NORMAL for girls to marry a year or two after they "flower," and not particularly unusual for them to marry the same year. Only people who question everything, like, say, Tyrion, ever wonder if it's appropriate.

Actually, no.  Sansa is unusually young to be married (even overlooking the hostage issue).  Tywin acknowledges that himself.

3) Catelyn doesn't care about Sansa's age, so why should Jaime? Only Tyrion ever cared about Sansa's age, or protecting her innocence. With Sansa in hand, Catelyn would have married her to the Freys. Since she didn't have her, she married off ARYA, who is two years younger! This is not about a mother wanting to protect and keep her underaged daughter. This is about wanting her property (Sansa) so she can dispose of it as she likes, and try to win a war with it.

That interpretation of Catelyn's character is completely unsupportable if you've actually read her chapters.  She wants Sansa back because she loves her to a painful extent, not as property.

4) The same audience who keep wanting to condemn Tyrion for being married to Sansa, yet not consummating the marriage, can't WAIT to see Arya in bed with Gendry or Sansa in bed with Littlefinger or SweetRobin. Some people are excitedly counting down the minutes til her union with Littlefinger or Harry the Heir, even though only a few weeks ago she was too young. And they vilify the guy who refused, under extreme pressure, to rape her, while they want to canonize the guy who won't hesitate for a minute to do so, with absolutely no urging or pressure whatsoever.

Who's "canonizing" Littlefinger?  People who ship the characters with people they're actually attracted to aren't remotely the same thing as the Sansa/Tyrion situation.  I'm fairly certain there's very little overlap between the fans who condemn Tyrion and those who want her to be molested by Baelish.

Edited October 21, 2014 by SeanC

[Maximum Taco]

5) Littlefinger is her uncle by marriage, which makes it incest. That's all I was saying. But she'd better be prepared to keep him happy, or she could find herself sold like Roz. And keeping him happy is going to involve some very unsavory things.

 

Incest is defined as sexual congress by people commonly regarded as too closely related to be wed. So it's a societally based charge, not just "they're related, it's incest." In our society usually it's second cousins that can marry with little to no backlash. But by Westerosi standards, it's completely reasonable for someone to marry their first cousin.  By example Tywin marries his first cousin Joanna (who is the daughter of his uncle Jason Lannister) and nobody blinks and Lysa thought it was completely reasonable for Sansa to marry Sweetrobin (again her first cousin), who is much more closely related to her than Littlefinger.

 

It's icky, because he is her uncle by marriage and because of his love for her mother and because of their age difference. But it isn't incest, atleast not by Westerosi standards.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Holmbo]

I'm also excited by Tyrion and Dany meeting and potentially interacting. I could actually seeing it staying pretty similar to the overall plot of the book. Tyrion and jorah are sold as slaves and tyrion manages to catch the interest if one of hizdars guys who buys them. Jorah gets sent to the fighting pits as a punishment for something, maybe trying to escape, while tyrion works to get closer to hizdar, maybe by revealing who he is or at least that he has a lot of knowledge that could be important to him. When jorah is fighting either dany orders then to stop it or she can't see that it's him from that far away. When they are watching the fighting drogon shows up and

dany flies away on him. Next episode tyrion escapes and joins up with Dario who has turned on deny. Does this makes any sense?

Also am I silly for being bothered by them not coloring dinklage's beard blond (ish)? It's not like they've been consistent with hair matching eyebrows and such and I really haven't been noticing it that much. But I feel like that will just look really weird.

[SeanC]

Also am I silly for being bothered by them not coloring dinklage's beard blond (ish)? It's not like they've been consistent with hair matching eyebrows and such and I really haven't been noticing it that much. But I feel like that will just look really weird.

I definitely wouldn't call that silly. The eyebrows thing already bugs me, but with the beard there's, well, a lot more of it.

[benteen]

I have no problem with the show having Tyrion and Dany meet up.  GRRM had his chance in ADWD's (and it should have happened there) but he decided to revel in world-building with no end in site.  I just hope D and D manage to deliver with their scenes but in fairness to them, they've usually been very good in this department.  They had Brienne and Arya talk for about a minute but it was perfect.

 

Though I agree, if Dany saw Jorah fighting in the pits (especially as a slave) she would likely throw herself into it to try to save him.

[Domenicholas]

What if when Tyrion and Dany meet, he gives her a similar, the same speech that he gives fAegon in the books?

[Winnief]

Though I agree, if Dany saw Jorah fighting in the pits (especially as a slave) she would likely throw herself into it to try to save him.

 

 

Then Drogon comes in to get Dany thus getting the epic dragon riding scene D&D must be panting for...

What if when Tyrion and Dany meet, he gives her a similar, the same speech that he gives fAegon in the books?

LOVE that idea. 

[benteen]

What if when Tyrion and Dany meet, he gives her a similar, the same speech that he gives fAegon in the books?

 

That's not a bad idea at all.

[Hecate7]

Incest is defined as sexual congress by people commonly regarded as too closely related to be wed. So it's a societally based charge, not just "they're related, it's incest." In our society usually it's second cousins that can marry with little to no backlash. But by Westerosi standards, it's completely reasonable for someone to marry their first cousin.  By example Tywin marries his first cousin Joanna (who is the daughter of his uncle Jason Lannister) and nobody blinks and Lysa thought it was completely reasonable for Sansa to marry Sweetrobin (again her first cousin), who is much more closely related to her than Littlefinger.

 

It's icky, because he is her uncle by marriage and because of his love for her mother and because of their age difference. But it isn't incest, atleast not by Westerosi standards.

 

You're probably right. It's not that icky either. I'm sort of inured to ick in these books and on the show anyway.

[SFoster21]

The ick factor with Petyr and Sansa is that he, in the guise of guardian and protector (and posing as her father, IIRC) is seeking to exploit her sexually.

While it is not textbook "incest," it comes uncomfortably close.

[Hecate7]

I'm also excited by Tyrion and Dany meeting and potentially interacting. I could actually seeing it staying pretty similar to the overall plot of the book. Tyrion and jorah are sold as slaves and tyrion manages to catch the interest if one of hizdars guys who buys them. Jorah gets sent to the fighting pits as a punishment for something, maybe trying to escape, while tyrion works to get closer to hizdar, maybe by revealing who he is or at least that he has a lot of knowledge that could be important to him. When jorah is fighting either dany orders then to stop it or she can't see that it's him from that far away. When they are watching the fighting drogon shows up and

dany flies away on him. Next episode tyrion escapes and joins up with Dario who has turned on deny. Does this makes any sense?

Also am I silly for being bothered by them not coloring dinklage's beard blond (ish)? It's not like they've been consistent with hair matching eyebrows and such and I really haven't been noticing it that much. But I feel like that will just look really weird.

I hate the attitude towards hair color on this show.

 

I don't think Dany would intervene to save Jorah. She told him he had (can't remember--12 hours? 24? til sundown?) to get out of town, before she had him executed. I don't think what happens to him next is of any concern to her whatsoever. That whole story is done. WE care what happens next to Jorah. Danaerys stopped caring the day she banished him.

 

It's a lot like Arya and the Hound. Because we like the Hound, we imagine Arya will think of him sometimes. Nope. She won't. We want to attribute our own feelings to the characters, but they're not always there.

 

On this show, love and friendship do not always crop up where we would wish. Our favorite characters often hate and kill one another, or team up with the wrong people and get killed by them.

[Hecate7]

Sansa is only a couple years younger than Roslin Fry. She is one year younger than Danaerys. She is two years younger than Margaery. I don't think it's all that unusual.
 

 

That interpretation of Catelyn's character is completely unsupportable if you've actually read her chapters.  She wants Sansa back because she loves her to a painful extent, not as property.

 

If you have actually read Catelyn's chapters, you'll note that she married off Arya, who is 2 years younger than Sansa. To a Frey. Why wouldn't she do the same exact thing to Sansa? Cat's objection was not that Sansa was too young, but rather that Tyrion is a dwarf and a Lannister.

[loki567]

Yeah, I figured the way the show works that we were getting a meeting between Dany and Tyrion this season. One of the advantages of its "fast travel," style. And I think no Dany/Tyrion meeting was one of the many mistakes in ADWD. You can get a lot of mileage out a single scene. It would have cut a lot of the "pointless," complaints down, I think.

 

The question is when does the scene come? At the end of the season or at the midpoint? I'm wondering if they're doing Dany's, "spirit quest," with the Dothraki or whatever GRRM says Dany's TWOW plot is, this season or the next. Considering the producers seem pretty set on season seven as the end while GRRM might be moving into book eight, the last two seasons might be PACKED. I could see them wanting Dany in a position to leave Essos for sure by the end of season six.

 

 

[Holmbo]

I have hoped tyrion would give his dany speech to jorah but for him to give it to dany would be kind cool. Maybe as a reason for why he wants to join her.

I think dany would save jorah because I think it would be clear he was not there by his own choice. I think she would save anyone who where forced to fight in those pits against their will unless she absolutely hated them. Her anger towards jorah will have had time to cool if a bit by then.

[WearyTraveler]

In the book, when Dany banishes Jorah we read her internal monologue.  She thinks that she can't look at him because if she does she won't be able to banish him at all.  It's true that she's angry with him, but I think the books made it clear through her thoughts that she still had feelings for him, not romantic feelings, but feelings, nonetheless.  She seemed to me to be sad and angry when she confronted Jorah, not just angry.

 

So, for me, it's a real possibility that she would drop into the pit to save Jorah (and everyone else, mind you) when Drogo makes his appearance.

 

Also, all the trials and tribulations Jorah has suffered in the books after his banishment and the fact we are left with him pretty much set to go into Mereen and fight for Dany's cause the last time he made a book appearance, signal, IMO, that the plan for the books is that Jorah and Dany reunite and he fights for her cause, with her approval, once again.  The show might just be fastforwarding this development.

[Avaleigh]

I agree that Dany will likely step in to save Jorah from Drogon I'm just not sure that I agree with the part where she'd allow him to fight at her side and once again be one of her protectors. I don't think that Jorah ending up in an unfortunate situation like that will make her think that he's any more trustworthy than she feels he is since she found out about his betrayal.

To me Dany is going to see it as he saved my life before I can't just let him die. Upon saving his life though I feel like she'd basically feel like they were even.

That being said, if Barristan isn't in the pit scenes then maybe Jorah will get the moment that Barristan has where he tries to keep Drogon from going for Dany by waving his arms and calling to Drogon to go for him instead. If Dany sees him lie down his life like that in order to save her I can see her finding it in her heart to forgive him eventually.

[SeanC]

I don't think Dany would intervene to save Jorah. She told him he had (can't remember--12 hours? 24? til sundown?) to get out of town, before she had him executed. I don't think what happens to him next is of any concern to her whatsoever.

She still cares about Jorah, even though he betrayed her (see the book).  Moreover, she told him to leave town; he's only back because he was captured and sold into slavery (unless she's a moron, she would know he didn't come back to pursue a career as a gladiator).

 

Sansa is only a couple years younger than Roslin Fry. She is one year younger than Danaerys. She is two years younger than Margaery. I don't think it's all that unusual.

And those couple of years make a big difference.

 

If you have actually read Catelyn's chapters, you'll note that she married off Arya, who is 2 years younger than Sansa. To a Frey. Why wouldn't she do the same exact thing to Sansa? Cat's objection was not that Sansa was too young, but rather that Tyrion is a dwarf and a Lannister.

She didn't "marry off" Arya.  She arranged a betrothal, which was necessary to, you know, save Arya's life (as far as Catelyn knew).  She absolutely thought Sansa was too young to be married.  And she most definitely didn't want the girls back as "property".

 

The question is when does the scene come? At the end of the season or at the midpoint?

Based on the filming spoilers, Tyrion and Varys are in Volantis in episode 3, which would probably end with Jorah abducting him.  Journeying with him, the Sorrows, etc. would be a couple more episodes, so his introduction to slavery would be episode 6 or so at least.  Given that Yezzan has been cast, I imagine he's Tyrion's first owner (but Meereenese), and then, as we're speculating he may pass into Hizdahr's possession, given his location in those photos (basically akin to where Missandei is relative to Dany).

 

Based on the setup, I doubt there's actually going to be a real conversation between Dany and Tyrion, in the sense of her knowing who he is.  Daznak's Pit will interrupt that.

[Hecate7]

Show me the quote where Catelyn reflects that Sansa is too young to be married. I don't think that was the issue. She arranged Arya's betrothal with the Freys, not knowing whether Arya was dead or alive at the time. I'm not sure how it would have saved Arya's life at all, but it did sway the Freys into giving Robb passage and some men--at least on paper.

 

And the marriage to Tyrion was necessary to save Sansa's life, but that doesn't seem to matter to anybody.

 

Of course she wanted the girls back as property. That's what girls ARE. And having the girls in hand, she would do what "good" mothers do in this culture, and arrange to have them raped until pregnant, by the highest politically acceptable bidder, just as every other parent in Westeros does. 

 

She wasn't curious about Sansa's feelings about her new marriage, but rather, outraged about the infringement on her own property rights. If it had turned out Sansa loved Tyrion, Cat would have been just as outraged and wanted Sansa returned nevertheless. This is not about Sansa's safety or happiness. It's about Cat's rights. She seems to have been smart enough, though, on some level, to know that Tyrion was not going to impregnate Sansa, and had no thoughts about what to do if Sansa returned huge with child.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

She arranged Arya's betrothal with the Freys, not knowing whether Arya was dead or alive at the time. I'm not sure how it would have saved Arya's life at all, but it did sway the Freys into giving Robb passage and some men--at least on paper.

Your comment contains the answer to your question.  "Swaying the Freys into giving Robb passage" is key to their chances of defeating the Lannisters, whereby they hope to secure the return of Ned and the girls.

 

And the marriage to Tyrion was necessary to save Sansa's life

Um, no it wasn't.  How exactly did forcing Sansa to marry Tyrion "save her life"?

 

Of course she wanted the girls back as property. That's what girls ARE. And having the girls in hand, she would do what "good" mothers do in this culture, and arrange to have them raped until pregnant, by the highest politically acceptable bidder, just as every other parent in Westeros does.

Arranged marriage and marriage by swordpoint are not the same thing.  Arranged marriages can go badly, of course, but they do not inherently equal being "raped until pregnant".  That's a rather offensive suggestion.  As is the idea that Catelyn wants her daughters back "as property".  She wants her daughters back because they're her children.

 

She wasn't curious about Sansa's feelings about her new marriage,

Because she wouldn't need to be.  Sansa is miserable, and Catelyn, not being an idiot, knows that.  There's really no possibility of her being pleased as punch at being raped by the Lannisters.  Sansa loving Tyrion was never a remote possibility, unless she developed Stockholm Syndrome.

 

This is not about Sansa's safety or happiness.

It most definitely is, and you weren't reading Catelyn's chapters at all if you think otherwise.  Her children's safety and happiness is all Catelyn wants.  It's central to her whole philosophy, and, for instance, the pleas she makes to Robb to end the war.

 

She seems to have been smart enough, though, on some level, to know that Tyrion was not going to impregnate Sansa, and had no thoughts about what to do if Sansa returned huge with child.

Um, no, she most definitely did not know that.  She was certain that Sansa had been raped and was being impregnated, and would likely be disposed of once she'd born children.  She had no thoughts about "what to do if Sansa returned huge with child" because on learning of Sansa's marriage she knew the Lannisters would never be giving her back, and since she knew the Starks were losing the war at that point, the odds of them ever being able to force her return were dismal.  There's a reason why, in her anguished death cries, she considers Sansa as lost as the children she believes to be dead.

Edited October 23, 2014 by SeanC

[AshleyN]

I have to say, I've been excited for Tyrion and Dany to meet if only because this is one situation where his inability to keep from running his mouth could come in handy. If there's anyone who'd be willing to drop some desperately needed truth bombs on her (particularly when it comes to the history of her family and the rebellion), it's him. I'd love to hear Tyrion's thoughts on Rhaegar's decision to run off with a high lord's daughter and leave his obviously paranoid and insane father to deal with the fallout alone.

 

I'm with those who are slightly concerned with the seeming lack of action on the non-Wall northern stuff, because it was some of my favourite material in either of the fourth or fifth books. And while I can (relucantly) accept the lack of Wyman Manderley*, I'm going to be really upset if we don't get some version of "The North Remembers". Preferably including the mountain clans, because the fact that they're willing to march through a damn Northern blizzard to rescue "Ned's little girl"** is I think one of the most powerful moments in the series for me. It offers a bit of redemption for Ned against his detractors, and in the process serves as an important pushback against the more nihilistic readings of the series. Yes, Ned was a hopeless King's Landing politician, but he was a very good Warden of the North, and his "honour", which many seem to dismiss as useless idealism is the reason so many in the North are so unwavering in their loyalty to him, even long after his death. Something tells me there aren't many who'd do the same for Tywin Lannister's children.

 

*Although given their love of both icky and depraved stuff and wham scenes, I'm a little surprised they'd seemingly be willing to forgo both Frey pies and Manderley's declaration of his true plans (is it even possible to read that passage without giving at least a little fist pump?)

 

**Even if it's not really Ned's little girl. It's the thought that counts, right?

Edited October 23, 2014 by AshleyN

[ElizaD]

Making Game of Thrones:

 

Day 19: Worries unique to GoT: today we film a scene heavily featuring Brienne's sword, Oathkeeper. Our armorer on set (yes, we have those) is worried about the bronze in the sword oxidizing before we finish shooting it. The pros and cons of a portable grindstone are discussed.

Later, Sophie Turner finds an arrow in a trash bin from where locations threw it away. She decides to carry it around with her all afternoon. Coincidentally, the writers change all lines in the scene to, "whatever she wants, please, we have families." Dark Sansa indeed...

 

Did they pair mentions of Brienne and Sansa for fun because they knew the false conclusions people would jump to, or are they fine with people guessing correctly that they filmed a Brienne/Sansa scene that day?

 

Yes, Ned was a hopeless King's Landing politician, but he was a very good Warden of the North, and his "honour", which many seem to dismiss as useless idealism is the reason so many in the North are so unwavering in their loyalty to him, even long after his death. Something tells me there aren't many who'd do the same for Tywin Lannister's children.

 

I'm sad that "Ned's little girl" probably won't be included because I loved the contrast with Tywin's legacy in the same book: his own brother let the High Septon inflict on the Lannisters the same public shaming Tywin did on their father's common mistress because Tywin's horrible parenting and short-sighted brutalities had not just created external enemies, they had wrecked their internal unity. Kevan hated Cersei so much that he couldn't be bothered to fight or scheme on her behalf even though what's done to Tommen's mother weakens the credibility and power of the entire house.

[Hecate7]

 

Um, no, she most definitely did not know that.  She was certain that Sansa had been raped and was being impregnated, and would likely be disposed of once she'd born children.

Um, then she's a bigger idiot than even I considered her, since Tyrion never laid a hand on Sansa. The Freys would have, though. But it wouldn't have been rape, because her Mommy would have picked out the rapist.

 

I don't see how marrying a missing daughter to a random Frey son saved her life. I do see quite clearly how marriage to Tyrion saved Sansa from Joffrey and Cersei and placed her under Tywin's protection. She can't provide an heir if she's dead, and so marriage to Tyrion insured that Tywin would not let Joffrey or Cersei kill her at least until one heir could be born.

 

Arya's peril is very different, and unaltered by her in absentia betrothal to some random boy. I thought the chapter where she tells her fiance, "I hope your princess dies," not knowing she's referring to herself, was incredible.

It suddenly occurs to me that Jorah might be in the pit because Danaerys PUT him there. He may have been caught inside the city, contrary to her orders, and the arena might be her way of giving him a chance to survive, instead of simply killing him outright.

 

I'm really disgusted that there is no Penny, and that Tyrion and Jorah do not team up.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Hecate7

[SilverShadow]

Um, then she's a bigger idiot than even I considered her, since Tyrion never laid a hand on Sansa. The Freys would have, though. But it wouldn't have been rape, because her Mommy would have picked out the rapist.

 

Catelyn has no knowledge of what actually happened. What she does know is how pretty much all hostage marriages have historically gone down and that Tyrion is a Lannister. Westeros doesn't really culterally have an idea of "Marital Rape," IIRC Cat didn't even think of it in quite those terms, just how ugly Tyrion is and that Sansa would have to submit and bear his children. I agree that both instances would have been rape, but I don't think most of the characters would have. Tyrion's ahead of the curve in that regard, and even he nearly goes through with it.

[Avaleigh]

I'm really disgusted that there is no Penny, and that Tyrion and Jorah do not team up.

 

 

Wait, how do we know for sure that Tyrion and Jorah don't team up? That sucks if true.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Hecate7]

Well, Tyrion's not in the pit. Why would he need to team up with Jorah at all, if he's already working for Danaerys and Hizdahr? Unless we're going to get the story backwards, and Tyrion is blamed for Danaerys' poisoning, thrown in the pit and rescued by Jorah? It looks as if they're skipping Cersei's persecution of dwarves, too. Pity.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

I just figured they got separated at some point with Tyrion getting the slave upgrade and Jorah getting the downgrade to the pits for mouthing off or some other reason. 

[benteen]

Making Game of Thrones:

 

 

 

 

Did they pair mentions of Brienne and Sansa for fun because they knew the false conclusions people would jump to, or are they fine with people guessing correctly that they filmed a Brienne/Sansa scene that day?

 

 

I'm sad that "Ned's little girl" probably won't be included because I loved the contrast with Tywin's legacy in the same book: his own brother let the High Septon inflict on the Lannisters the same public shaming Tywin did on their father's common mistress because Tywin's horrible parenting and short-sighted brutalities had not just created external enemies, they had wrecked their internal unity. Kevan hated Cersei so much that he couldn't be bothered to fight or scheme on her behalf even though what's done to Tommen's mother weakens the credibility and power of the entire house.

 

That's what happens I'm afraid when the showrunners don't think that Tywin was a bad guy and that you need to be kind of brutal to rule the Seven Kingdoms.  You definitely need a very strong hand to do so but Tywin's shitty parenting and his scorched earth/damn the consequences brutality helped cause a lot of the problems in the Seven Kingdoms.

 

I thought Tyrion joining up with Jorah in the books was a surprising disappointment although I have confidence that Peter Dinklage and Iain Glen will make that work on the show.  D and D are good at that sort of character interaction.  Things might have changed but I hope those two actors get plenty of time with each other.

[Holmbo]

What exactly did the show runners say about tywin? I've seen it referred to often but never read it. At least Charles

Dance said he was an a hole.

[loki567]

Anybody have an opinion about a theory that's running around Reddit right now that Trystane might be Aegon in the show verse? It's over here:   http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2jy924/spoilers_all_prediction_trystane_in_season_5_is/. It's interesting.

 

I just can't believe that the show can get away with cutting Aegon. If it doesn't turn out to be true, I think Aegon pops up in season six. 

[SeanC]

Um, then she's a bigger idiot than even I considered her, since Tyrion never laid a hand on Sansa.

In fact, he did "lay a hand on Sansa"; he groped her.  And he was going to rape her, but changed his mind at the last minute.  Absolutely nobody could have guessed Tyrion wouldn't have gone through with it, seeing as Tyrion himself didn't know that.

 

The Freys would have, though. But it wouldn't have been rape, because her Mommy would have picked out the rapist.

Arranged marriage and being taken prisoner by enemies and forced to marry at swordpoint aren't the same thing.

 

I don't see how marrying a missing daughter to a random Frey son saved her life.

..

Arya's peril is very different, and unaltered by her in absentia betrothal to some random boy.

As far as Catelyn and everyone else knew, Arya was a prisoner in King's Landing.  The assistance of the Freys was necessary to save her (indeed, ending the war would have benefited the non-prisoner Arya anyway, in principle).

 

I do see quite clearly how marriage to Tyrion saved Sansa from Joffrey and Cersei and placed her under Tywin's protection. She can't provide an heir if she's dead, and so marriage to Tyrion insured that Tywin would not let Joffrey or Cersei kill her at least until one heir could be born.

Tywin was already protecting her as a prisoner, to the extent that being married to Tyrion afforded any protection at all.  It wouldn't have stopped Joffrey from raping her (indeed, that would arguably have aided Tywin).  Sansa wasn't under any particular threat from Joffrey and Cersei at that point, either, so the idea that marriage to Tyrion saved her life has no support.

 

What exactly did the show runners say about tywin? I've seen it referred to often but never read it.

They were asked about the show losing two of its main villains in Season Four (meaning Joffrey and Tywin), and they said they don't consider Tywin a villain, he's "Lawful Neutral" (in Dungeons and Dragons terminology).

[Hecate7]

Arranged marriage and being taken prisoner by enemies and forced to marry at swordpoint aren't the same thing.

 

No swords were used on Sansa at King's Landing during her marriage to Tyrion, just as no swords were used on Danaerys during her marriage to Khal Drogo. Neither bride was given the option of refusing, but no swords were used. Marriage at swordpoint would be more appropriately used to describe the marriage of Lady Hornwood to Ramsey Snow. Sansa, though legally a prisoner, was treated the same way girls are usually treated. The ONLY difference is that Tywin chose, rather than Cat. That's all.

 

No matter which family had her, Sansa would not have gotten her choice. And I don't think there's a single person in the Frey family who'd have treated her half as well as Tyrion, or respected her wishes at all.

 

The betrothal of 11-year-old Arya to a Frey, in absentia, would still mean that the minute the war was over, Arya would have to give the Freys satisfaction--they would no doubt demand an immediate wedding and consummation the day she "flowered." They are not the sort to permit a long betrothal period, regardless of Arya's age. It's no different than the "marriage at swordpoint" Sansa got, except that Walder & Mom get to choose the rapist, instead of Tywin. There's really no difference from the girl's perspective. The Freys are every bit as rotten as the Lannisters, but they don't give you pretty clothes and jewelry to compensate. You're just stuck there on the compound being treated like a slave, in the Frey family.

It wouldn't have stopped Joffrey from raping her (indeed, that would arguably have aided Tywin).  Sansa wasn't under any particular threat from Joffrey and Cersei at that point, either, so the idea that marriage to Tyrion saved her life has no support.

 

Either she was under threat or she wasn't. As long as Joffrey got to play with her, she was under threat of death, same as Roz, same as any whore in the kingdom. Marriage to Tywin made her live body valuable to him, and did in fact terrify Joffrey out of raping or killing her. He still thought about both, but he wasn't going to do it if Tywin might object. This is amply demonstrated on the show and in the books. Moreover, as frightened as Tyrion was of Joffrey, he was not about to allow something to happen to Sansa if he could prevent it, and so Joffrey was facing the combined efforts of Tyrion AND Tywin, protecting Sansa from him, as opposed to just Tyrion alone randomly exerting protection when it occurred to him. After the marriage it was always on his mind, to the point of wanting to take Sansa to Casterly Rock.

[Avaleigh]

You're just stuck there on the compound being treated like a slave, in the Frey family.

 

 

Lol, Hecate, I don't know if you ever watched the show Big Love but it's way too on point to have the Freys pegged as the Grants in the BL universe. (Actually, I guess in the BL universe the Lannisters are the Grants and the Freys are the Greens, but either way your compound comment made me laugh out loud. Heh, and I guess the Targaryens are the Walkers, the Starks are the Duttons, and the Baratheons are the Henricksons.)

 

ETA:

 

And I don't think there's a single person in the Frey family who'd have treated her half as well as Tyrion, or respected her wishes at all.

 

 

I don't know if this is necessarily true. I agree that it's extremely unlikely that anyone from any family would have respected her wishes as Tyrion did but I don't think it's impossible. I'll also concede that the eligible Freys that we do know probably would have been a lot less respectful than Tyrion ended up being. 

 

I think my issue is that on the surface people might think that the Lannisters are a pack of evil assholes but to me characters like Genna, Kevan, Daven, Myrcella, Tommen, Jaime, Lancel, and others basically seem like they're okay people at the end of the day. I feel like the Freys probably have their good members too we just haven't met them yet. 

 

One of the reasons I have issues with Lady Stoneheart and other characters are when they just decide that a person's name or blood should be the deciding factor on whether or not they deserve to live and I completely disagree with that sort of mentality.

 

I love the character of Sansa but I hate the moment when she thinks to herself that she would raise her children to hate all Lannisters. Her anger at the family is understandable but I would like her to be the kind of person who would come to the realization that it's wrong to judge people hard and fast just because of their blood and/or name. There are good and bad apples in every family and there are certain characters that I'd like to see acknowledge this. 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Avaleigh

[SeanC]

No swords were used on Sansa at King's Landing during her marriage to Tyrion

Yes they were.  Hence, the armed guards who dragged her to the sept.  The swords were there; Cersei threatened her with them.  Even if she hadn't, she's a prisoner -- the swords are always there.

 

Sansa, though legally a prisoner, was treated the same way girls are usually treated. The ONLY difference is that Tywin chose, rather than Cat. That's all.

No, she was not treated "the same way girls are usually treated".  And the difference between Tywin and Catelyn is a pretty big damn one, seeing as Catelyn isn't her enemy (among other things).

 

The betrothal of 11-year-old Arya to a Frey, in absentia, would still mean that the minute the war was over, Arya would have to give the Freys satisfaction--they would no doubt demand an immediate wedding and consummation the day she "flowered." They are not the sort to permit a long betrothal period, regardless of Arya's age. It's no different than the "marriage at swordpoint" Sansa got, except that Walder & Mom get to choose the rapist, instead of Tywin. There's really no difference from the girl's perspective. The Freys are every bit as rotten as the Lannisters, but they don't give you pretty clothes and jewelry to compensate. You're just stuck there on the compound being treated like a slave, in the Frey family.

Well, firstly, as the head of the family, the king, Robb would in that hypothetical scenario easily be able to tell the Freys to back off and take their time.  Moreover, as king, he could simply make Arya's husband an officer of some sort in his court, if he wanted to keep her around (indeed, I expect that's what Lord Walder was expecting him to do, as with Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister).  And it is quite different from "marriage at swordpoint", since Robb isn't going to beat Arya if she doesn't go through with it, though that would cause problems for everyone.

 

Either she was under threat or she wasn't. As long as Joffrey got to play with her, she was under threat of death, same as Roz, same as any whore in the kingdom. Marriage to Tywin made her live body valuable to him, and did in fact terrify Joffrey out of raping or killing her. He still thought about both, but he wasn't going to do it if Tywin might object. This is amply demonstrated on the show and in the books.

 Demonstrated where, exactly?  At no point was Joffrey "terrified out of raping or killing her"; kindly point out where that was.  Sansa was no more protected as Tyrion's wife than as a hostage; either way, she was Tywin's prisoner with strategic value.  And, again, if Joffrey wanted to rape her, Tywin would not have stopped him (particularly as that would solve the problem of Tyrion not raping her himself).

 

Tyrion wanted to leave King's Landing on his own account.

 

I think my issue is that on the surface people might think that the Lannisters are a pack of evil assholes but to me characters like Genna, Kevan, Daven, Myrcella, Tommen, Jaime, Lancel, and others basically seem like they're okay people at the end of the day. I feel like the Freys probably have their good members too we just haven't met them yet. 

 

One of the reasons I have issues with Lady Stoneheart and other characters are when they just decide that a person's name or blood should be the deciding factor on whether or not they deserve to live and I completely disagree with that sort of mentality.

 

I love the character of Sansa but I hate the moment when she thinks to herself that she would raise her children to hate all Lannisters. Her anger at the family is understandable but I would like her to be the kind of person who would come to the realization that it's wrong to judge people hard and fast just because of their blood and/or name. There are good and bad apples in every family and there are certain characters that I'd like to see acknowledge this. 

Thing is, as far as viewing the Lannisters as a unit to hate goes, as far as Sansa's interests are concerned, they are a unit, whose interests are diametrically opposed to hers.  I like a number of them, like Kevan and Genna, but they're both totally find with grinding Sansa's family into dust and using Sansa as a baby factory to supplant her own family (Tyrion himself wouldn't have been overly bothered either, except that it was him that Tywin asked to be the instrument of the latter).  And Sansa is, in any event, perfectly able to regard kids like Tommen and Myrcella as nice people, and she concedes the Tyrion was as kind as he could be, despite his participation in the war against her family.

Edited October 24, 2014 by SeanC

[Skeeter22]

I am always puzzled by the insistence that Tyrion was protecting Sansa by marrying her. He never even touches on the idea at any point in the text. That idea almost always goes hand in hand with the argument that Tyrion was forced into the marriage, and was a victim as much as Sansa was. How can he marry her to protect her and also be forced into it? Tyrion can't be both the hero and the victim.

The argument that Tyrion had the same amount of power as a 12 year-old hostage is absurd on its face. The same people who make that argument often criticize Sansa for not trying hard enough to befriend Tyrion. How can befriending someone as weak and infantile as their version of Tyrion benefit Sansa?

[Advance35]

I think my issue is that on the surface people might think that the Lannisters are a pack of evil assholes but to me characters like Genna, Kevan, Daven, Myrcella, Tommen, Jaime, Lancel, and others basically seem like they're okay people at the end of the day. I feel like the Freys probably have their good members too we just haven't met them yet.

One of the reasons I have issues with Lady Stoneheart and other characters are when they just decide that a person's name or blood should be the deciding factor on whether or not they deserve to live and I completely disagree with that sort of mentality.

I love the character of Sansa but I hate the moment when she thinks to herself that she would raise her children to hate all Lannisters. Her anger at the family is understandable but I would like her to be the kind of person who would come to the realization that it's wrong to judge people hard and fast just because of their blood and/or name. There are good and bad apples in every family and there are certain characters that I'd like to see acknowledge this.

 

 

I actually understand the outlook of characters that consider families the enemy in the world of ASOIAF.   Genna Lannister was in favor of making House Tully extinct to secure the Riverlands would fall under control of the Iron Throne, through her and her Frey husband.   Kevan was with Tywin every step of the way through the War of the 5 Kings.   Jaimie's crimes against House Stark are obvious and Lancel was indifferent to her suffering in Kings Landing because she was a Stark.   The only people I think Sansa would kill if she had the chance and she was confident she could survive it are, Joffrey (Olenna beat her to the punch), Walder Frey and Cersei.   But if Sansa ever got to take ultimate revenge on Cersei, is there any doubt that Tommen and Myrcella (if they survive) would one day try to take revenge on her?

 

This is the mentality I think GRRM is trying to convey and I wish the show had done a better job of it.   Series Protagonist even thinks he wants to see "death and destruction rain down on  all of House Lannister", and he specifically mentions Tommen.   And though Sansa realizes he was kind, she doesn't seem ESPECIALLY bothered when she and Baelish think Tyrion will be executed for Reigicide.

 

Though not all of House Frey was involved in the Red Wedding, there all currently working to pull themselves through the aftermath.    We see from Lord Manderly that quite a few Frey's currently scheme their House's best interest and to all their House to prosper further.    The Lannisters (Kevan, Genna, Devan), The Freys, (all the one's that may not have been directly involved in the Red Wedding) would fight to the death for the guilty parties within their House because that's how Westerosi society is.

 

I think GRRM did a good job conveying the outlook of you are your House.   I think if the characters acted any other way it might take me out of the story.

[Hecate7]

If someone offered to kill every last Lannister for her, Sansa would say yes. Even if they could magically show her sweet Tommen playing with his kittens, and Myrcella weeping over her scar, and little baby Ermentrude married at age 2, she would still say yes, kill them all. 
 

 

And it is quite different from "marriage at swordpoint", since Robb isn't going to beat Arya if she doesn't go through with it, though that would cause problems for everyone.

 

What would he do, then? Because she would not go through with it, and it WOULD cause problems for everyone. He would have had to invoke his authority as head of household, and he would have had to back it up with something, and ultimately Arya would have run away, unless of course he posted a guard to prevent her from doing so.

 

I don't think the Freys were all that impressed with Robb--they did far more to him than was necessary. The Lannisters just wanted him stopped. The Freys are the ones who added the gratuitous cruelty. The Lannisters would at least have interred Cat and Robb respectfully in their own family's tombs. The Freys defaced their bodies, and threw Cat in the river naked and left Robb and Greywind out for the crows.

 

Ultimately, it's no different at all from marriage at swordpoint. The only difference is who owns the sword. The Freys turned on the Starks at the very first opportunity, and they would have done so with or without pressure from the Lannisters.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

If someone offered to kill every last Lannister for her, Sansa would say yes. Even if they could magically show her sweet Tommen playing with his kittens, and Myrcella weeping over her scar, and little baby Ermentrude married at age 2, she would still say yes, kill them all. 

You must have read different books, then.  Sansa angsts about framing Marillion, a guy tried to rape her and was an accomplice to her attempted murder.  She is not someone who murders people indiscriminately.

 

What would he do, then? Because she would not go through with it, and it WOULD cause problems for everyone. He would have had to invoke his authority as head of household, and he would have had to back it up with something, and ultimately Arya would have run away, unless of course he posted a guard to prevent her from doing so.

I have no idea what Robb would do in that situation.  He might try to conciliate the Freys via alternative arrangements.  He might remonstrate with Arya and hope she matures (which, you know, she could).  He might decide that he's won the war and the Freys can be happy with Queen Roslin.