Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Hecate7]

I can't really ser dany being into jon in the books because i understand him to be quiet homely. That combined with an introvert personality would probably leave dany with litle interest. Though she night marry him for political reasons and warm to him after awhile.

He's not considered homely. He's just not raved about the way Robb, Jaime, and Loras are. Of course, he's never ventured into any place where he might get anyone's opinion on his looks, and we have never seen him through the eyes of an eligible girl. I think it says something that Ygritte fell in love with him. She apparently had her pick of the wildling men, but she wanted the foreign boy.

 

I think he's probably every bit as good-looking as Robb, but Robb being the actual heir was more sought-after by families of their class. Had Jon Snow gone to court and entered in jousts and lists, we'd have a much better idea of his looks. He is introverted, but so was Khal Drogo, and Dany liked him fine.

[Lady S.]

I don't think we can compare Jaime and Tyrion in terms of sexuality. Jaime has had his pick of the girls since he was old enough to know what girls were. He is widely considered the best-looking man in Westeros. He has been in love with his twin all his life, and it's not that hard to be faithful to someone who is both considered the most beautiful woman in the world, and also your "soulmate." What Jaime would have been like had he been devoid of good looks or traditionally admirable talents such as swordsmanship, we will never know. What his sexuality would have been, were he not devoted heart and soul to his twin sister, we likewise cannot guess.

 

Yes, I know he was off Cersei when he refused Pia, but he'd had a lifetime of nothing but desire and acceptance from women.

 

Tyrion's knowledge that it was wrong is still something I think he deserves some credit for, since it came wholly from his own intuition and empathy, and not one bit from his upbringing, his culture, or anything he'd ever read, listened to, or witnessed.

IA about Jaime. I'd also say that Jaime's first refusal of Pia was under such extreme circumstances of dry spell combined with going through super bad shit and probably needing comfort and the ego boost, that it seems weird to use as a point of comparison. So what if other men would give in to temptation in those circumstances? We've already seen Tyrion be faithful to Shae, turning down willing working girls at Chataya's, though I doubt Shae cared. There's nothing to indicate he couldn't keep that up under normal circumstances, if he ever had a normal relationship. Furthermore, wouldn't you say part of Jaime's love for Cersei is thinking she is an incomparable woman who makes going outside the family for sex unnecessary due to her golden hotness? So after only being with Cersei for his entire life and going through that whole journey waiting to fuck her again why have his first sexual release after captivity be with some girl he'd just met, ruining his proud track record of fidelity (the one thing he had on honorable Ned!) and wasting his pent-up passion on someone unrelated to him? He'd already lost his swordhand, didn't need to give up whatever fantasies he'd been building of the epic reunion with the love of his life. He says it wasn't easy to get rid of Pia right after she goes on about how she thought of him when in bed with other men, so I always assumed her eagerness was the issue there, probably combined with his body's reaction and the ego stroke that may have caused, rather than Jaime really wanting her. Since he isn't actually controlled by his penis his brain probably reminded him of the goddess waiting for him soon enough, and then the trouble was just getting Pia to understand "thanks, but no thanks". I don't think Jaime's obsession with his sister is really a more healthy sexual habit than pre-Dance Tyrion's, a little whoring with some willing working girls in his youth could have maybe done him some good.

 

Tyrion is worse off than Jaime when it comes to the way he treats women, but prior to Shae's murder, the worst of that was directed at Cersei, whom Tyrion had a very different relationship with. (He did once joke that it was unfair of Cersei to open her legs for one brother but not the other, but I think we can all agree that sexual rejection wasn't really the issue with her. And he had a right to be hurt by her refusal to love in a non-incest familial way.) But then Jaime does have fantasies of smashing Cersei's teeth out with his goldenhand or cutting her tongue out after learning she's a lying whore, and I wonder why no one is at all disturbed by that. Tyrion's line about raping and killing her disturbed me too, but I took the rape part in the same vein as his threat to Illyrio's servant to kill her like he did Shae or way back when his threat to beat and rape Tommen, that is exaggerating his own monstrosity for effect, since that is the only time he ever mentioned raping her and he never fantasized of that, and his audience expected the worst and wouldn't even believe Jorah's truth. Overall, I think Jaime had less issues with women for the same he didn't hate Tywin the way Tyrion did, he didn't have any reason to, he wasn't fucked up by Tywin in the same way. Not to excuse Tyrion's actions, he had choices, but as to being a sometimes self-pitying drunken whore monger, it'd take a very strong person to overcome all Tyrion's baggage completely on his own in a society that made it very hard to just escape his fucked-up family. Who knows what Jaime would be like if he hadn't been born the golden son? I think one of the themes to take from this series is trauma isn't always character building, and maybe shouldn't be expected to be, that what doesn't kill you doesn't always make you stronger, enough of that can make a person worse, abuse and oppression breeding more abuse and oppression. 

 

Not anything in his upbringing or anything he witnessed? I think the rape of Tysha had a lot to do with Tyrion's refusal to do the same to Sansa, especially as both were ordered by Tywin. And he would have found no pleasure in it anyway, having sex with someone not paid to hide any revulsion would only make him feel awful too. 

Edited September 29, 2014 by Lady S.

[Advance35]

Did anyone hear about the latest filming apparently

Loras Tyrell is being arressted in Kings Landing by the Royal Guards.

 

I'm trying to think about how this effects subsequent events.    I figured they were going to tighten up Cersei's plotting against the Tyrells this season and due to a lack of scope we can't get EVERYTHING that was in the book but this still surprised me.

[Avaleigh]

I agree that that the Pia comparison is weird to make but it's the closest Jaime comes to interacting sexually with another woman so that's why I brought it up. Also, my point wasn't to suggest that Tyrion is incapable of sexual loyalty but more about the idea that he seems like the kind of man who would think of his own needs first in a situation like that.

Wrt Jaime refusing, I don't agree with the idea that it was necessarily easy for Jaime to refuse simply because he sees Cersei his beautiful soul mate. Jaime thinks to himself how difficult it was to refuse so I feel inclined to take the word of the character.

As far as the sick thoughts Jaime has had about Cersei, I absolutely find them to be disturbing and hope that it's glossed over or not included at all on the show. I'd much prefer to see Jaime get over Cersei because of the things she does once she starts acting as a Regent rather than seeing him freaking out over her having sex with Lancel. It isn't that Jaime isn't offensive when it comes to stuff like this it's more that Jaime's feelings and rage at least seem more focused whereas Tyrion seems to want punish people who had little or nothing to do with his misery in addition to the people who legitimately did hurt him. That prostitute seemed like she was being treated horribly because of things other people had done and I think it's stuff like this that makes Tyrion seem more disturbed than Jaime overall.

As for the idea that he didn't force Sansa to strip--we have to agree to disagree on that one. No, it wasn't in public, Joffrey style but it was obvious that she didn't want to and that she wouldn't have done it at all if Tyrion hadn't asked. Sansa was in a position where she felt like it would be pointless to fight or resist and it's not like Tyrion wasn't aware of this. I'm glad that he ultimately did the right thing but the moment was uncomfortable and it was unnecessary for him to go there IMO. I didn't say anything about feeling that Sansa is scarred for life I just think that moment highlighted some qualities in Tyrion's character both negative and positive.

As for the possible spoilers!--

Could this mean they really are going to run with the idea of Cersei being the ultimate hypocrite by trying to get Loras and Margaery arrested for adultery, incest, and treason? Looking forward to reading more about this.

[Advance35]

Also some really good news or I guess Interesting would be a better description.    Apparently Diana Rigg was spotted on set in the latest filming for Kings Landing scenes.    I know they said Tywin's funeral was being filmed but the report also made it seem like 

Olenna Tyrell would be present for Cersei's walk of shame.

[Hecate7]

 

Not anything in his upbringing or anything he witnessed? I think the rape of Tysha had a lot to do with Tyrion's refusal to do the same to Sansa, especially as both were ordered by Tywin. And he would have found no pleasure in it anyway, having sex with someone not paid to hide any revulsion would only make him feel awful too.

 

That prostitute seemed like she was being treated horribly because of things other people had done and I think it's stuff like this that makes Tyrion seem more disturbed than Jaime overall.

Of course Tyrion is a little more disturbed than Jaime. Tyrion was abused from an early age. Jaime was not. Tyrion was hated by his father. Jaime was not. Moreover Jaime got to have a little time with his mother, before Tyrion came along.

 

Tyrion struggled with a physical disability and had to design his own saddle or he'd never have even ridden a horse. Finally, and most significantly, Tyrion was raped. Jaime never was. Tyrion was not only molested and abused by Cersei as a small child whenever Jaime wasn't around to protect him, but he also had the Tysha incident to live with. (That it had a scarring effect on him in no way diminishes its impact on her and is not intended to be "just as bad" or anything like that. But if two people fall from a building, and one breaks every single bone in her body, and the other only breaks his arm and leg and has a concussion, he is still also injured. That another party is more severely injured does not negate his own injuries).

 

Here's the thing. There were 50 men involved in Tysha's rape, not counting Tywin, who ordered it. Nobody but Tyrion had a problem with it. Yes, I'm sure it colored his feelings about Tywin's instructions regarding Sansa, but it could just as easily have colored them the other way. I know of people who have witnessed or investigated horriffic rape/murders, and who completely poo-poo date rape and statutory rape. Far from being sensitized, they were desensitized by the extremes of the violence they had seen.

 

My own personal opinion of Tyrion is that he has lost his mind, and his adventures with Penny and The Second Sons will either be the means whereby he reclaims it, or the final proof that he has once and for all gone absolutely bonkers.

 

His feelings about Jaime are actually the final straw, as Jaime was the one person whose love Tyrion still believed in. Apart from Jaime there was never, in Tyrion's life, anyone who ever loved him but Tysha, and had Jaime been honest with Tyrion about Tysha, Tyrion might have given up his life rather than participate in her punishment. At this point in his life, it's now official. Not one person who has ever encountered Tyrion, actually loved him, except Tysha, and that was only for a few weeks. Too little too late.

[Lady S.]

I agree that that the Pia comparison is weird to make but it's the closest Jaime comes to interacting sexually with another woman so that's why I brought it up. Also, my point wasn't to suggest that Tyrion is incapable of sexual loyalty but more about the idea that he seems like the kind of man who would think of his own needs first in a situation like that.

Wrt Jaime refusing, I don't agree with the idea that it was necessarily easy for Jaime to refuse simply because he sees Cersei his beautiful soul mate. Jaime thinks to himself how difficult it was to refuse so I feel inclined to take the word of the character.

 The closest on page, but given Jaime's looks and Pia's opinion of him, I doubt she was the first girl ever to solicit him and be refused. I don't think it was effortless for him to refuse her in those very bad conditions but I think he would have regretted it immediately if he had slept with her, beyond a feeling of having cheated on Cersei. Even when he's checking Pia out in Feast, he discourages himself in part by thinking she's more fit for Tyrion. Jaime is a romantic and even when not feeling bound to Cersei, he's not one for casual sex, but I'm not so sure that's a good thing when he really does need to get over Cersei. (Tyrion is almost his own version of a romantic too, paying Shae for the girlfriend experience and trying to act like she really is his lady. A wife who does love him is all he really wants and I don't think he'd be focused on his own needs first if he had such. His whoring in the books was really not the same as Robert's, I'd say he was after the illusion of being cared for by a woman and having someone he could feel was his love, if only temporarily, rather than just outlets for lust.)

 

I hope Jaime finds out about Lancel on the show somehow, because the violent fantasies can be done away with but leaving out the reason for his break-up with Cersei is too much of a change for me. I don't want a more noble Jaime who turns against Cersei for only the right reasons instead of focusing more of her infidelity than the things that make her a horrible person. 

 

And on the subject of things people would or wouldn't do, I don't believe the Tyrion from the first two books and all but one chapter of Storm would have raped the slave in Selhorys. If he'd been allowed to go adventuring in Essos, that's not  an activity he'd wish to try. The guy who couldn't go through with raping Sansa does not gel with the man who thinks to himself that he's just fucked a corpse and then rapes the same corpse girl a second time. But once he learns he helped rape the only girl who ever truly wanted him, there's no way to make up for that, he doesn't even know where she is, (hence the annoying search, I think it's absolution he wants there more than just resuming their happy marriage as if nothing happened), and as someone who did this to his wife he can no longer try to be the kinder, better Lannister to prove he's not a demon monkey, he now believes he has been irredeemable since the age of 13, so he embraces being a monster and goes beyond his regular baser instincts to make himself even more loathsome.  I wouldn't say he's out of his mind but there is a definite psychological breaking point when he learns that the most important lesson he ever learned, which influenced almost all his adult interactions with women, was actually a horrible lie. From that point on, yes, he is certainly more disturbed than Jaime, but I think everything before that (the time he slapped Shae, almost consummating the marriage with Sansa) can be reduced to fear of Tywin and adolescent-style insecurities. Theon has more issues with thoughtlessly using women, and the resentful angry loser who thinks he's entitled to getting laid by hot girls is better represented by Chett, the murderer in Storm's prologue. Tyrion deserves criticism too but I don't see how that can be done without 

discussing Tywin and the Tysha experience.

 

Anyway, onto filming news Loras

is supposed to be hauled off by the Faith Militant, not royal guards. And there are also reports of the Sparrows ransacking a tavern in Flea Bottom, though they never went after fellow smallfolk in the books. So looks like we're going to miss the part with the Sparrows were war refugees come with genuine complaints, while Cersei thinks any attacked septas probably needed a good raping. And her re-arming the Faith will be portrayed as Inquisition-like, which kinda takes away the surprise of her own arrest and makes her look even stupider.

And for anyone else thirsty for Northern news, not-Wic has reports of

casting for a new Thenn and another wilding chief to be involved in war council scenes. It looks like Stannis may just march with the wildlings instead of the mountain clans, meaning we lose people who want to die saving The Ned's girl and bathing in Bolton blood. So Frey pies better show up in some form or we'll have no one loyal to the north remembering.

[benteen]

On those spoilers

Neither of them sound very promising. Screwing up the Sparrows wouldn't surprise me. The Brotherhood Without Banners were portrayed as religious fanatics first and defenders of the smallfolk a distant second.

[Constantinople]

I don't mean to be a downer, but aside from Tyrion's opinion, is there any evidence that Tysha loved Tyrion?  Just because Tysha wasn't a whore doesn't mean she loved him.  And even if she did, what does "love" really mean given their age at the time?

 

Also, I can understand Tyrion being angry with Jaime when Jaime told Tyrion the truth about Tysha during Tyrion's escape, but Tyrion's continued desire to kill Jaime seems disproportionate.  Jaime was young too and, for the most part, equally under Tywin's thumb.  And I'm hardly a Jaime apologist.

[Brn2bwild]

Question: Do you think the major casting is done, or that they could still be casting major (albeit unsung) roles like Howland Reed, etc.?

[Hecate7]

I don't mean to be a downer, but aside from Tyrion's opinion, is there any evidence that Tysha loved Tyrion?  Just because Tysha wasn't a whore doesn't mean she loved him.  And even if she did, what does "love" really mean given their age at the time?

 

Also, I can understand Tyrion being angry with Jaime when Jaime told Tyrion the truth about Tysha during Tyrion's escape, but Tyrion's continued desire to kill Jaime seems disproportionate.  Jaime was young too and, for the most part, equally under Tywin's thumb.  And I'm hardly a Jaime apologist.

I think these are excellent points.

 

I don't know why else Tysha would want to marry Tyrion, and live with him, if not for love....maybe we'll find out.

 

As for Tyrion's anger, it stems from the fact that Jaime is the one person he trusted, the one person whose love he believed in most, and Jaime lied to him for more than a decade. Looked him right in the eye and told him the lie that enabled him to cooperate in the destruction of the only other person he ever fully trusted and loved. Without Jaime's lie, Tyrion would have fought for Tysha. He certainly would not have gone along with his father's plan for her.

 

It is the sudden discovery that Jaime lied to him, and betrayed him, for 10 years or more, that causes Tyrion to snap. I believe he suffers a psychotic break at that moment. The cognitive dissonance is simply too much--Jaime, the person he loves most, is saving his life, and at the same time confessing to an abominable betrayal. It is exactly as if Tyrion had executed an innocent man by some slow torture, on Jaime's word, only to be told 10 years later, by Jaime, that it really was foul murder, and the guy he killed was not only innocent, but also Tyrion's dear friend.

 

It's hard to say if his anger is disproportionate. I am a Jaime apologist, and I get why he couldn't stand up to Tywin any more than Tyrion could back then, but I see Tyrion's point on this one. That was his wife. Jaime should not have taken that away from Tyrion, and he should not have taken credit for bringing them together, either. Having done so, Jaime really should have just kept his mouth shut about it, because the knowledge that he mercilessly, hideously punished an innocent person for a MUCH smaller betrayal than Jaime's, is what pushed Tyrion over the edge. Ironically it is heroic and honorable that Jaime was stupid enough and idealistic enough to want to tell Tyrion the truth, that he could no longer accept Tyrion's love and hero worship with that secret gnawing away at him.

 

I fully expect, too, that we're ultimately going to find out Tysha WAS a whore, that the rescue WAS a setup, but that it was Tywin, not Jaime, who set it up. Alternatively we're going to discover that Tysha was Tywin's bastard. Either way, Tyrion's search for her won't end well, and will probably make him actually regret killing Tywin.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Hecate7

[Ailianna]

Without Jaime's lie, Tyrion would have fought for Tysha. He certainly would not have gone along with his father's plan for her.

Or so he would like to believe. Is there any actual reason to believe he would have stood up to Tywin this time, when never in his entire life did he stand up to his father? Even the Sansa stuff was all out of sight, and not a direct confrontation. And even in the last moment, it took him angry and half-hysterical from his imprisonment and escape, from that betrayal regarding Tysha, with his father completely defenseless and on the toilet, for Tyrion to do anything. I don't for a minute believe 13 year old Tyrion would have stood up to his dad and "fought" for Tysha. He might have protested and he might have hated his father more after, but I think the actions would have played out pretty much exactly the same way.

[mac123x]

don't know why else Tysha would want to marry Tyrion, and live with him, if not for love....maybe we'll find out.

 

I believe Tywin might have commented that she was with him for his last name.  I have no idea if it was true, but she could have seen Tyrion as a meal-ticket.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, even if he wasn't the most attractive of Lannister prospects, he was still a Lannister, and I think most lower-born women would have married him regardless of personal feelings.

[BookEater]

Or so he would like to believe. Is there any actual reason to believe he would have stood up to Tywin this time, when never in his entire life did he stand up to his father? Even the Sansa stuff was all out of sight, and not a direct confrontation. And even in the last moment, it took him angry and half-hysterical from his imprisonment and escape, from that betrayal regarding Tysha, with his father completely defenseless and on the toilet, for Tyrion to do anything. I don't for a minute believe 13 year old Tyrion would have stood up to his dad and "fought" for Tysha. He might have protested and he might have hated his father more after, but I think the actions would have played out pretty much exactly the same way.

 

I agree, not one of Tywin's children ever managed to stand up to him and it took an unhinged Tyrion to finally go head to head, and only then when the odds were stacked in his favour. There's no way 13 year old Tyrion would've defied his father so openly and said, no, I won't do it. Even adult Tyrion couldn't manage that, Tysha still would've been raped and he would have been deeply remorseful about it. Small comfort for Tysha though.

Every time I think about Tywin and his kids and the ripple effect his ego and bad parenting had on the whole country, I think that mans got a lot to answer for.

[Haleth]

I can't post this in the Other Roles thread because it is a spoiler, but how funny/ironic is it that Michelle Fairley has a guest role on the show Resurrection?

[Hecate7]

Or so he would like to believe. Is there any actual reason to believe he would have stood up to Tywin this time, when never in his entire life did he stand up to his father? Even the Sansa stuff was all out of sight, and not a direct confrontation. And even in the last moment, it took him angry and half-hysterical from his imprisonment and escape, from that betrayal regarding Tysha, with his father completely defenseless and on the toilet, for Tyrion to do anything. I don't for a minute believe 13 year old Tyrion would have stood up to his dad and "fought" for Tysha. He might have protested and he might have hated his father more after, but I think the actions would have played out pretty much exactly the same way.

Probably, but it doesn't matter. That's just not the kind of self awareness people can live with for very long, and so it's completely unsurprising that Tyrion snapped and can't unsnap. It is a little like Jaime's own psychotic break upon discovering Cersei's infidelity. He killed for her. He gave up his inheritance for her. Would he have done so anyway? Probably, but it's not something he personally is aware of.

[benteen]

I agree, not one of Tywin's children ever managed to stand up to him and it took an unhinged Tyrion to finally go head to head, and only then when the odds were stacked in his favour. There's no way 13 year old Tyrion would've defied his father so openly and said, no, I won't do it. Even adult Tyrion couldn't manage that, Tysha still would've been raped and he would have been deeply remorseful about it. Small comfort for Tysha though.

Every time I think about Tywin and his kids and the ripple effect his ego and bad parenting had on the whole country, I think that mans got a lot to answer for.

 

THIS.  The downfall of the Lannisters was in-fighting.  In-fighting in this case was Tywin and Cersei's (and Joffrey's as well) absolute hatred of Tyrion.  If they had shown him any kind of love, they would have had a loyal Lannister who would have done ANYTHING for him.  We see what Tyrion will do for people he loves.  He hatched an elaborate, less-than-honorable scheme to get Jaime out of Riverrun's dungeons.  It failed but it's definitely the thought that counts.  Jaime loved Tyrion as a brother and treated him with respect (the Tysha lie notwithstanding).  Tyrion responds to that.

[Advance35]

And the surprises keep on coming with regards to filming the Kings Landing scenes.     Apparently 

Not only is Olenna Tyrell in Kings Landing and having dealings with The High Septon BUT Littlefinger and Lance are in Kings Landing filming as well.

 

My curiosity is peaked and I'm doubly interested in what this means for Sansa/Alayne.   I have my theory that we will get Harry the Heir next season.

[Skeeter22]

I think it's safe to say that the show has officially gone into uncharted waters. I'm not sure if these things will happen in upcoming books or not. Either way, next season should be very interesting for book readers and the unspoiled alike.

I can't even imagine what is going on in King's Landing, but it will impact several major storylines. I'm looking forward to it.

[ElizaD]

There's been talk about how KL will be missing a lot of major characters in S5, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they're still finding ways to make a location that involves Lannisters more prominent. Meanwhile, no news about Manderly and the best speechmaking/pie-eating action in ADWD appearing on GOT. At this point reading Manderly casting news would make me hear the choir of angels.

 

It's been announced that Walder Frey won't be back in S5. With no Stoneheart, no Riverlands, possibly no Manderly, and "oh, I guess Tywin is a bad guy if you look at things from a Stark POV" I really get the feeling that the showrunners stopped caring about the Red Wedding after they got their shocking moment in 3x09 and don't think it was a big deal in Westeros.

 

My curiosity is peaked and I'm doubly interested in what this means for Sansa/Alayne.   I have my theory that we will get Harry the Heir next season.

 

The interesting thing to me is that this hopefully implies a Littlefinger-free episode where Sansa will play the game in the Vale on her own and perhaps take advantage of his absence. The showrunners know whether Harry turns out to be a red herring or not. I got the feeling that Show Robin might possibly take Harry's role if it's just ruling the Vale after the war and/or being Sansa's betrothed before she moves on to whatever her final fate is.

[Avaleigh]

Having a bit of a nerdgasm over this Littlefinger info, lol.

Olenna should be feeling fairly double crossed wrt Sansa's disappearance shouldn't she?I wonder if Petyr only has one or two council scenes just to sort of reestablish what his "official" reason would be to stay away from KL now that Lysa is dead. Why though would Cersei send him away again? If he isn't there for council scenes and is maybe there secretly, who would he be meeting with? If it's Olenna, you'd think they'd want to meet up elsewhere. I suppose he might just be there for the funeral. The only reason I'm sort of skeptical about this is that I have a hard time imagining Petyr leaving Sansa on her own for a significant period of time. In the books I think it's easier to see how he'd think she'd be too fearful to more or less do as she pleases while he's away, but on the show I feel like he'd be anxious about leaving her to her own devices now that she isn't in a situation where she feels like he's all that she has.

Also, regarding Olenna's continued presence in KL--I'm happy about this but I do have a couple of concerns. I don't know how I feel about the shit hitting the fan for the Tyrells while Olenna is still in town. I'm also not exactly sure that I like the idea of her having a front row seat for the WoS. It depends on how they play it but I don't know that I necessarily want to see such a fun and likeable character rooting for something like a WoS. Again though it depends on how they play it.

Quick question: does the wording make it totally impossible for the show to introduce the idea of Loras having a younger brother or maybe a half brother? The assumption that there are only two Tyrell children (from the main line) comes from the conversation where Tywin makes the threat about the Kingsguard, right? I'm curious as to how or if they'll end up dealing with this. I suppose Mace could have a younger brother enter the picture.

This is the first time on the show where I'm seriously pondering the possibility of Loras's death. In the books I'm on the fence but lean towards him living. (Short explanation: I think Margaery is toast and since Cersei really wants them both gone I can't see her ass being that lucky twice. Also, GRRM goes so out of his way to be vague here I feel like the situation has to be more complicated than 'btw Loras succumbed to his wounds.') On the show though I'm wondering if Loras is going to get taken down as a replacement for the singer. Alternatively, going with the idea of the High Septon being an uptight prick and religious fanatic, maybe Loras will be railroaded for his sexuality?

I have to think that if there are as many arrests next season as I think there will end up being that somebody is going to end up on the chopping block just to drive home the point of how dangerous and stupid it was to allow the reformation of the Faith Militant. If everyone just sits around in jail waiting for a trial (trials that likely won't have an outcome this season) I don't know that the intense feelings of urgency and danger will necessarily be there. Having Olyvar though or maybe Loras executed for supposedly fornicating with a queen--I can definitely see something like that turning it all up a notch.

Speaking of Olyvar--I wonder if Littlefinger will have anything to do with Cersei trying to take down Margaery with LF playing the situation as though he's helping her but actually doing the opposite. Taking that idea a step further, I can even see it being a situation where Littlefinger does or says something to make sure that both sides get caught up in the mess with the Faith.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Sounds promising.  I can definitely understand them wanting to keep King's Landing prominent but I do hope they realize that they can't force everything to be in King's Landing.  D and B already have a serious King's Landing fetish as it is.

[Holmbo]

There's been talk about how KL will be missing a lot of major characters in S5, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised that they're still finding ways to make a location that involves Lannisters more prominent. Meanwhile, no news about Manderly and the best speechmaking/pie-eating action in ADWD appearing on GOT. At this point reading Manderly casting news would make me hear the choir of angels.

 

It's been announced that Walder Frey won't be back in S5. With no Stoneheart, no Riverlands, possibly no Manderly, and "oh, I guess Tywin is a bad guy if you look at things from a Stark POV" I really get the feeling that the showrunners stopped caring about the Red Wedding after they got their shocking moment in 3x09 and don't think it was a big deal in Westeros.

We got so little northern stuff that rather than getting the feeling everything is cut I start to question the pacing of the season. I've pretty much assumed they'd get into wow territory with almost every story line. But now I'm less sure about that. What if they're actually pushing whole storylines forward into the next season? It's one thing to cut some minor plots or characters but unless they plan to have a totally different ending than GRRM they will be some stuff important to plot.

We don't know for sure yet what that is but some of the stuff that the books seems to be building up towards is:

-Frey comeuppance by the BwB led by SH which Jaime and Brienne are being caught in the middle of

-Bolton comeuppance by the northern lords.

-Ironborn attacking Oldtown while Sam is there

-Aegon conquering stuff

 

None of this has even been hinted at being in season 5. I'm sure some of the plots and characters will be cut (the whole Aegon plot definitely seems to be out and I don't think we're getting LS). But I have a hard time seeing none of it being crucial to the overall end game. So my thought is what if this season we get:

-Cersei's downfall in Kingslanding

-Tyrion traveling to Meeren

-Dorne being introduced and doing some stuff

-Lots of politics at the wall with the chosing of the LC and interactions between the brothers and Stannis people and the wildlings

-Dany trying desperately to control Meeren.

-Sansa learning how to scheme in the Vale

-Arya learning to be an assassin in Bravos

-Bran learning how to be an old god

 

And by next season some of these plots will have merged and we'll get:

-Introduction of some Northern Lords and Stannis teaming up with them

-Jaime going to the Riverlands (for some show invented reason) and he and Brienne and BwB does whatever they do in the books.

-(possibly introduction of Oldtown if it's important)

 

At this point in the book neither the Riverlands story nor the scheming of the northern lords has payed of yet and we know D&D like to not introduce stuff until it is relevant. Also the actor for Frey has said he will be back at some point. Just cause the show runners have Kingslanding fetish doesn't mean they don't know the value of a good comeuppance for the bad guys. Just look at what they did with the mutineers making sure to build them up to be the absolute worst scum and then having them all killed.

 

The biggest reason to doubt this though is that I have no idea what Bolton story would be this season without northern lords or WoW material. Same for Yara and to some extent Brienne.

[Advance35]

With regards to Olenna Tyrell

I think her being involved in the WoS is very in character. We know what led to the walk was Cersei's relentless scheming and her planning to have Margaery executed. The Tyrells are every bit as score-settling as the Lannisters, they just do it a certain way. I could see Olenna wanting to nullify any and all political power Cersei possesses. In the book that was Kevan's agenda and since we don't see him I could see the walk being Olenna's idea. A way to devestate Cersei on the outside and inside. It also weakens the Lannister side of the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, giving them even more power. Since according the reports Olenna's meeting with the High Septon happens in Episode 7, I could see it playing out this way. In the book Kevan had to give the Tyrell's proof that Cersei would not be a threat going further, I could see Olenna orchestrating this.

 

With regards to Littlefinger

In AFFC he left the Eyrie for a while didn't he. Sansa was left with the Maester, Robin, Luthor Brune and the rest of the Household. It was later when Sansa met up with him at the Gates of the Moon, hosted by Myranda Royce, that Sansa and Littlefinger reconnected, ragailing her with hints and comments that Cersei is destroying herself and how Westeros will be hit hard by the War of the 3 Queens. Maybe we will see him in Kings Landing gathering intel and maybe see Olenna hinting that she's VERY curious about whatever became of Sansa Stark.

 

I know there are other prominent things happening in this saga but the political intrigue and double-crosses are really what's kept me on the edge of my seat all these years.

[Lady S.]

Quick question: does the wording make it totally impossible for the show to introduce the idea of Loras having a younger brother or maybe a half brother? The assumption that there are only two Tyrell children (from the main line) comes from the conversation where Tywin makes the threat about the Kingsguard, right? I'm curious as to how or if they'll end up dealing with this. I suppose Mace could have a younger brother enter the picture.

Yes, the wording makes it impossible, if Loras had brothers of any kind Tywin wouldn't say that Highgarden would pass to Marg's line. Having male Tyrell 1st cousins would be easy if Loras really wasn't enough though, so I don't really don't see that as a problem for the show. 

 

I believe Tywin might have commented that she was with him for his last name.  I have no idea if it was true, but she could have seen Tyrion as a meal-ticket.

Well, they weren't exactly living in Lannister luxury in their secret love shack, it was a home, but not really one she couldn't have gotten by marrying another peasant. I wouldn't call it love because they knew each other for a matter of hours before the wedding, but that obviously goes for Tyrion as much as Tysha. Remember that even in the whore version of the story, Tysha was herself a 13yo virgin as well (Jaime was said to have "bought a maiden" so Tyrion wouldn't be intimidated). They were just two idiot kids playing house. If Tyrion wasn't a dwarf would anyone really doubt that a girl could fall for him in addition to his name? That's the whole point of the revelation imo, that Tywin was wrong, that Tyrion wasn't an unlovable monster that no girl would want to be with if she weren't hiding her revulsion for the sake of Lannister gold.

 

I also don't think Tyrion really wants to kill Jaime the way he does Cersei (Jaime's still what he misses most about Westeros), he's just mad and blaming Jaime as well as himself. And I wonder if Jaime would have gone along with the lie if Tyrion wasn't a dwarf, the "for his own good" aspect would be keeping him from getting any unrealistic ideas about women, right? And Jaime thinks of Tyrion's later whoring as perfectly natural, even though he thinks it's beneath him, Jaime, so it stands to reason Jaime doesn't think Tyrion could find lovers without paying for them. That would be Jaime's real betrayal, that he bought into Tywin's reasoning in some way even though Tyrion always thought he was completely different from Cersei in that respect. I think it's a perfectly forgivable amount of prejudice because really it'd be incredible to come out of that family with no prejudice, but as Jaime was the only person in that family who really loved Tyrion the way he deserved any betrayal by him would be a painful shock.

 

I know Olenna is back for s5, but where is the source for her being at the Walk? The hacks now running WiC appeared to have her confused with the septas due to the similar head-covering thingies. Not-WiC has an update on the Walk filming which seems to confirm

Kevan and Frankengregor at the end and also mentions an earlier scene with the incumbent High Septon with Meryn Trant accompanying Cersei and Marg. So perhaps Meryn will kill the old Septon but be in Braavos by the time of the walk with Lancel confessing to doom Cersei. 

[Dev F]

Yes, the wording makes it impossible, if Loras had brothers of any kind Tywin wouldn't say that Highgarden would pass to Marg's line.

 

Well, if they have a younger brother who's a cripple, Tywin may imagine that his infirmity disqualifies him from leading House Tyrell the same way he imagines Tyrion's dwarfism disqualifies him from being lord of Casterly Rock. It would be a somewhat awkward retcon to explain, particularly now that Tywin is dead, but the writers did a good job cleaning up the hedging regarding the existence of Shireen Baratheon back in season 3, so they could make it work.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Dev F

[Lady S.]

Well, if they have a younger brother who's a cripple, Tywin may imagine that his infirmity disqualifies him from leading House Tyrell the same way he imagines Tyrion's dwarfism disqualifies him from being lord of Casterly Rock. It would be a somewhat awkward retcon to explain, particularly now that Tywin is dead, but the writers did a good job cleaning up the hedging regarding the existence of Shireen Baratheon back in season 3, so they could make it work.

He'd have to be far more disabled than Willas imo, a limp is not a major deformity and carries no risk of being passed on to his children, and that's the risk I think Tywin is concerned by more than anything, he'd never want the Lannisters of Casterly Rock reduced to a line of generations of dwarf lords. WRT to Shireen, there was nothing to clean up there, the hedging was very careful, only saying Stannis had no sons never precluded a daughter. If the writers wanted the same leeway with the Tyrells they'd have written it that way, instead Cogman keeps saying in interviews that Marg and Loras are the only siblings. There's no need to even retcon that when they can always just give show Mace brothers. (The cripple retcon would also require Tywin to be right and the Tyrells could only turn to their shameful younger son when they had no choice, else Olenna should have corrected him about Marg being heiress and Loras joining the KG wouldn't be as big a deal. Tywin already has enough company with Randyll Tarly and Balon Greyjoy in the dicks who reject their male heirs club, I'd rather the Tyrells didn't join.)

Edited October 10, 2014 by Lady S.

[Advance35]

I will find the link but I got it from a onset report posted on ASOIAF.   It seemed pretty dead on.  And I think I wasn't clear in that the WoS and Olenna's presence is my speculation.   The account of filming

said for Episode 7 We see Olenna Tyrell leaving the Great Sept having just met with the High Sparrow and the footage will show just squallid Kings Landing has become in comparison to earlier in the season. Olenna goes to her litter and a messanger gives her some parchment, she reads it and get's in the litter and leaves. I just thought that Olenna being in Kings Landing LONG after Tywin's funeral and meeting with the Faith was a pretty good indication she would be playing at least a conspiring role in the WoS. I of course reserve the right to be wrong.

[Avaleigh]

Thanks, Advance35!

I guess I can deal with Olenna being instrumental in the WoS but I still can't help but hope that she and the Tyrells end up getting fucked over by the High Septon down the road wrt Margaery's trial. I kind of like the idea of Olenna thinking that she has the HS wrapped around her thumb only to get a rude awakening.

 

I'm glad to finally get confirmation that Kevan will be around. Do we know if it's the same actor or somebody new? I hope he gets some good dialogue with Jaime and Cersei and provides some more Tywin backstory. I know there have been complaints about the show being too Lannister focused but I really hope that Kevan can maybe relay the story about the mistress of Tywin's father when the discussion of Shae's presence in Tywin's bedchamber comes up. I really want them to give us some context with the WoS.  Ugh, I'm already bracing myself for the river of shit in terms of discussion that this scene is going to spur. It's not going to be pretty.

 

I'm curious to know if Varys would want Olenna running things behind the scenes since she's so competent. It'd be interesting if she ended up being taken out in the way Pycelle and Kevan were at the end of ADWD.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

If they would have just re-written Willas as being Loras's younger, crippled brother, it would have worked.  Cripples are viewed as poorly as dwarves in the Seven Kingdoms and it's easy to see how having someone who is crippled as the next in line would dismissed.

[ElizaD]

I'm as sure as one can be without having read TWOW that some combination of Aegon's arrival/Sand Snake scheming/genuine fanaticism will lead to the High Septon screwing the Tyrells over in a major way, and that can happen on the show even if he allies with Olenna for a moment. He can still go "Thanks for helping me give that licentious old Queen what she deserves, unfortunately your granddaughter has committed adultery. Off with her head!" I think GRRM will allow Dany to avoid confronting any tough decisions and get rid of children like Tommen/Myrcella and largely sympathetic characters like Margaery before she arrives in King's Landing to fight the survivors. Either the High Septon or Cersei will be Margaery's doom.

 

I don't think anyone knows whether the Kevan actor is coming back, but they've only recast characters when they ran into unexpected difficulties (whatever happened with Gregor and Daario) or needed a professional to replace an extra (Tommen, Myrcella).

[atua]

I'm as sure as one can be without having read TWOW that some combination of Aegon's arrival/Sand Snake scheming/genuine fanaticism will lead to the High Septon screwing the Tyrells over in a major way, and that can happen on the show even if he allies with Olenna for a moment.

ITA. Between Nym on the council and Tyene in the High Scepton's ear, I don't hold much hope of either Tommen or Margaery surviving the next book/season.

[Advance35]

My computer is a little wonky today so I'm having trouble linking but I got the information from the GoT forum on ASOIAF.   I also believe it was mentioned that at the end of Cersei's WoS there is a man in Lannister garb but nobody knew who the character was supposed to be, but it wasn't a soldier and it wasn't Qyburn.

 

In regards to the Faith and it's relation to the Tyrells.....I don't think Tyene Martell will have been in Kings Landing long enough to have influence over the High Septon.   I have know doubt playing a hand in Margaery Tyrell's demise would suit House Martell just fine should they have the chance but I just don't see how they can at this point.   I think by the end of TWOW Aegon will be on the Throne and I think House Martell will be the Great House that supports him.  The Martells will be to Aegon and his forces what House Tyrell was to Joffrey and the Lannister regime.   I don't think Tommen will survive TWOW but I'm not sure about Myrcella, why would they cast her and beef up her storyline on the show.   Do they just want a gut-punch for Season 5?   But once Tommen is out of power and the Tyrell's have fallen (if they do) I could see House Martell arranging an accident for Myrcella, unbeknownst to Trystane.

 

But House Tyrell isn't going to fall to House Stark levels of despaire since GRRM has stated that we will see quite a bit  more of Garlan Tyrell and we readers will also meet Willas.    I think any POV character they meet up with, at least enough for us to get a "view" of them, would have to be in Kings Landing.   So Cersei or Jon Connington.   I think civility between House Lannister and House Tyrell is a thing of the past.   So maybe somehow they do make a deal with Aegon/The Martells.   Now how the show is going to adapt all this is beyond me.

 

 I'm as sure as one can be without having read TWOW that some combination of Aegon's arrival/Sand Snake scheming/genuine fanaticism will lead to the High Septon screwing the Tyrells over in a major way, and that can happen on the show even if he allies with Olenna for a moment. He can still go "Thanks for helping me give that licentious old Queen what she deserves, unfortunately your granddaughter has committed adultery. Off with her head!" I think GRRM will allow Dany to avoid confronting any tough decisions and get rid of children like Tommen/Myrcella and largely sympathetic characters like Margaery before she arrives in King's Landing to fight the survivors. Either the High Septon or Cersei will be Margaery's doom.

 

This kind of bugs because I really wanted to see how Dany was going to handle the relentless scheming of The Great Houses.   It's also so typical because if she lives, by this point Sansa will probably finally be in the swing of things in terms of how the Game is played only for the Game Board to be kicked over with a whole new set of rules.   Though the forshadowing of dragons devouring all the Lions makes me think it won't just be Cersei that falls to Targaryens.   Though I guess Aegon/Varys/Martells could take out Tommen/Myrcella/Margaery and Dany can take out Cersei/Jaimie.

 

Man I wish the 6th book was being released soon.

[Lady S.]

I will find the link but I got it from a onset report posted on ASOIAF.   It seemed pretty dead on.  And I think I wasn't clear in that the WoS and Olenna's presence is my speculation.

Ah, ok, I hadn't bothered reading that account because there was a w.org troll right before the s4 finale insisting Arya was going to kill Pod in the skirmish between their parties and Stoneheart would be seen in the Riverlands etc. etc. Seeing this TristanSnow guy show up in the comments at not-Wic saying he'd be proven right when the show aired and his word should just be taken on trust was very reminiscent of such troll behavior. I think the s4 finale troll actually had a lot right aside from Pod's death and Stoneheart, if not the particulars, so it's possible someone with a good idea of what's happening could be making up stuff/guessing to fill out the picture. And if Kevan is in (why include a random Lannister extra with Qyburn and Frankengregor), then I see no reason for anyone else to be involved in the Walk, and I think it takes something away if Cersei's arrest isn't a result of all her own bad decisions. Can't Olenna just stick around after Tommen's wedding because she's Diana Rigg? They gave her plenty of scenery to chew in s3 and probably would have continued to do so in s4 if there was actually anything for her to do during Tyrion's trial, but the King's Landing plot was significantly fuller at that time.

 

If they would have just re-written Willas as being Loras's younger, crippled brother, it would have worked.  Cripples are viewed as poorly as dwarves in the Seven Kingdoms and it's easy to see how having someone who is crippled as the next in line would dismissed.

Not really, Jaime gets some taste of what Tyrion goes through when he loses his hand but it's still a lot less than the abuse and prejudice Tyrion suffered. Tywin only asks him if he can use his left hand, which strikes me as a rather casual attitude since someone as smart as Tywin should realize the matter isn't that simple. People don't respect/fear Jaime the same way after he's lost his hand, but no one thinks of him as a grotesque monster unfit for command and women still find him hot. I think the "grotesque"ness of Tyrion's condition is more an issue than any physical infirmity. There's not really any sense that all cripples are seen as evil or inhuman, the issue is more that they're not seen as real men. Wouldn't a disability from birth be key to any stigma of inhumanity? A guy losing a leg in war or some accident wouldn't be seen as changed into not a real person, more as not a real man. But would they really be seen as less manly than Walder Frey or Wyman Manderly? And why would a woman be a preferable heir, unless the cripple couldn't produce healthy heirs of his own? I tend to assume Maege Mormont and her daughters are outliers and that other ruling ladies may oversee a battle at most, but not actually fight in the field with their men. Randyll Tarly and Balon Greyjoy are outliers as well imo, since there are plenty of example of physically infirm rulers but no others of disinherited cripples. I never thought the Starks' not excluding Bran from succession before his "death" was just typical Stark softness or whatever. The Karstark boys thought Bran would be better off dead but they didn't question Robb's decision to name him acting Lord, as if other families wouldn't have done the same. They could have re-written Willas's age and made Westerosi prejudice even worse in the show version, but they chose not to and B.Cogs chose to make it more unequivocal in repeated interviews so I think it makes more sense to assume there's no retcon coming there and that if there are more Tyrell men coming, they would be Mace's brothers/nephews/cousins rather than sons. If Marg is doomed, as I assume she is, then some other Tyrell would be heir, there's no reason to think Mace just has to have more than two kids. 

 

 

I don't think Tommen will survive TWOW but I'm not sure about Myrcella, why would they cast her and beef up her storyline on the show.   Do they just want a gut-punch for Season 5?

Why not? Beefing up Myrcella's character only to kill her off in the same season sounds exactly like something the show would do. They've already changed everything else in the Queenmaker plot, why not have her lose more than an ear. Speeding her death forward (as just happened with Jojen) would be in line with general streamlining.

 

On that note, NotWiC has an update from a Spanish site about Dornish filming. 

"More details of a major new scene are emerging now, according to Los Siete Reinos‘s sources in Spain. Los Siete Reinos reports that in this scene Jaime and Bronn arrive in Dorne to find Myrcella and Prince Trystane kissing. Myrcella is surprised to see her “uncle” Jaime, and Trystane offers his hand in greeting to Jaime, who offers him his left hand instead.

Heated words are then exchanged between Jaime and Trystane, and the younger man tries to draw his sword. Bronn knocks the prince unconscious. After this, the three Sand Snakes enter. A fight between the group ensues, until Areo Hotah shows up and orders everyone to put their weapons down.

This information is credible since there have been unconfirmed rumors of a Jaime/Snakes skirmish for a while now, and then a few days ago, a video of Nikolaj rehearsing a fight turned up." I guess we should be grateful if Jaime doesn't ridiculously win a fight himself.

ETA: Sighting of (in-costume) Ellaria Sand with Areo Hotah here.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Lady S.

[ElizaD]

Earlier in the thread, a moderator said that only stuff from unreleased books needs to be in spoiler tags. So commenting on the Dorne news, that sounds like a pretty plausible way for Jaime/Bronn to meet the Sand Snakes and fits the joking tone of Bronn and the Snakes in the audition scene. If they'd first met and fought during the climax of a "rescue/kidnap Myrcella" plot, the dialogue would probably have been more menacing. This sounds like the middle of the plot: 1. the introduction of the new characters/Jaime arrives in secret, 2. Jaime is discovered, 3. ????

 

In regards to the Faith and it's relation to the Tyrells.....I don't think Tyene Martell will have been in Kings Landing long enough to have influence over the High Septon.   I have know doubt playing a hand in Margaery Tyrell's demise would suit House Martell just fine should they have the chance but I just don't see how they can at this point.

 

This kind of bugs because I really wanted to see how Dany was going to handle the relentless scheming of The Great Houses.

 

I think the most popular theory might be that Tyene gets herself elected as the representative of the Maiden in Margaery's trial and messes with the evidence/other judges' opinions enough to tip the scale.

 

A version of ASOIAF where Dany arrived in ASOS is a glorious might have been. By the time she gets to Westeros, the vast majority of interesting and competent non-Other antagonists will be dead. If she'd gone up against the likes of Tywin, she would have earned her victories. Now she'll be more like the default winner who shows up with her living nukes in a wasteland that's been cleared of worthy opposition.

 

 Why not? Beefing up Myrcella's character only to kill her off in the same season sounds exactly like something the show would do. They've already changed everything else in the Queenmaker plot, why not have her lose more than an ear. Speeding her death forward (as just happened with Jojen) would be in line with general streamlining.

 

With only seven seasons, IMO this is the kind of change that could make Myrcella's death more impactful than if she bit the dust in 6x05 and Tommen in 6x06 or the other way around. The problem is how it would work with the decision to send Jaime to Dorne, which the showrunners made knowing what are the most important things he has to do in TWOW. If Myrcella dies and Jaime knows about it, shouldn't that send him to KL to get ready for open war? But if he makes friends with Doran instead, I guess he could trust the Snakes to bring Myrcella to KL and move on to his Brienne/Riverlands-related stuff in late S5/S6... if that's important enough to be included with no Stoneheart.

[Winnief]

In regards to the Faith and it's relation to the Tyrells.....I don't think Tyene Martell will have been in Kings Landing long enough to have influence over the High Septon.   I have know doubt playing a hand in Margaery Tyrell's demise would suit House Martell just fine should they have the chance but I just don't see how they can at this point.

 

This kind of bugs because I really wanted to see how Dany was going to handle the relentless scheming of The Great Houses.

 

I think the most popular theory might be that Tyene gets herself elected as the representative of the Maiden in Margaery's trial and messes with the evidence/other judges' opinions enough to tip the scale.

 

A version of ASOIAF where Dany arrived in ASOS is a glorious might have been. By the time she gets to Westeros, the vast majority of interesting and competent non-Other antagonists will be dead. If she'd gone up against the likes of Tywin, she would have earned her victories. Now she'll be more like the default winner who shows up with her living nukes in a wasteland that's been cleared of worthy opposition.

 

 

Agreed.  A Dany/Tywin showdown-or Tywin's reaction to learning about Jon and the White Walkers really always felt like missed opportunities for me.  Of course this one we can't blame on D&D but on Martin and one thing I'm hoping for with the show is that they'll start Dany on the road to Westeros a lot earlier, (everything I've heard about Dany's storyline for TWOO has been worrisome to say the least,) but still I have a feeling most of the good ones (LF, Stannis, Margaery, etc,) will be long gone before Dany makes it.  Seven Hells.  That's a real problem-at this rate by Season Seven all the good Human Bad Guys/Combatants will probably be dead, and all they'll have will be the White Walkers.  DOn't get me wrong the White Walkers are a great existential threat but what kind of politics/games will there be anyone left to play for Season 7?!?

 

With only seven seasons, IMO this is the kind of change that could make Myrcella's death more impactful than if she bit the dust in 6x05 and Tommen in 6x06 or the other way around.

 

WORD.  My guess is Jaime will have left Dorne before Myrcella is attacked-and I for one wouldn't be surprised if/when Myrcella dies, they'll have moved it towards the end of the season, when Jaime has already rejoined Brienne in the Riverlands or Vale.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Winnief

[Advance35]

I think the most popular theory might be that Tyene gets herself elected as the representative of the Maiden in Margaery's trial and messes with the evidence/other judges' opinions enough to tip the scale.

 

A version of ASOIAF where Dany arrived in ASOS is a glorious might have been. By the time she gets to Westeros, the vast majority of interesting and competent non-Other antagonists will be dead. If she'd gone up against the likes of Tywin, she would have earned her victories. Now she'll be more like the default winner who shows up with her living nukes in a wasteland that's been cleared of worthy opposition.

 

Hmph.  I guess I could see that.   And maybe if Margaery Tyrell's curtain call won't happen until the end of the novel and if that is the case it would give GRRM the entire novel to build up Tyene's character who is likely to be pivotal to the overall plot, considering she was casted on the show and Arianne Martell was left out.   I also believe the producers said that Ellaria Sand was going to end up playing an important role as well.   Whether this was in reference to the fate of House Martell or the overall ASOIAF.    Though I think it was in December when GRRM said he hopes the audience enjoys the Sand Snakes because we will see A LOT more of them in TWOW.

 

So Dany's expected advesary is Aegon, with Jon Connington, House Martell and Lord Varys.  I would have LOVED to have seen her have to contend against Cersei, Olenna, Littlefinger partnered with Sansa.

[ElizaD]

 DOn't get me wrong the White Walkers are a great existential threat but what kind of politics/games will there be anyone left to play for Season 7?!?

 

To me, the fun of the Others around book 2-3 was the anticipation of the moment when they move south and the big players scramble to respond to this utterly unexpected and apocalyptic complication of their game. Stages of denial and horror and all that. "Dragons are back?! The Others are real?!" But now it looks like most of the book cast are going to die in painful yet mundane ways as a result of the same old game without getting to those reaction shots. I guess Walder Frey might meet Stoneheart and Cersei might live long enough to hear that Tyrion has a dragon.

 

At least the show's seven season plan should get Dany to Westeros sooner than the books where GRRM said she won't meet Tyrion for a while. I really like the idea that Dany rides Drogon in 5x09 and 5x10 is a greatly altered version of the Harpy attacks/the Battle of Meereen that ends with Dany and Tyrion sharing a scene. And if there's no Aegon, Show Dany vs. Show Cersei and/or Olenna might even happen.

 

Areo Hotah's badass glaive in the set photos reminded me of the earlier talk about how Euron could work pretty well on TV. In AFFC, Areo annoyed me because he was a nonentity and I couldn't help thinking that the earlier GRRM would have given all the Dorne POVs to Arianne and made her a more developed and central character. On TV, he's probably going to be in an entertaining fight scene and won't take up too much screentime.

Edited October 15, 2014 by ElizaD

[ElizaD]

Watchers has a lot of information, including:

 

 

 

D&D confirmed that there will be flashbacks in season 5, despite their previous assertions that there would never be flashbacks on the show. This is line with leaked info from a few months ago, regarding the casting of characters such as Maggy the Frog and young Cersei.

 

 

 

As for favorite characters, they have a hard time choosing. They especially appreciate Maisie (Williams) and Sophie (Turner) and their characters, since they were cast very young. The producers also named Tyrion and Theon as characters they love.

 

Tyrion and Theon is pretty much what I would have guessed, Tyrion because on the show he's become the most wonderful man ever and Theon because they've spoken highly of Alfie Allen.

 

 

 

There may be true spoilers from The Winds of Winter in season 5. The answer on the subject was unclear, but the vibe the attendees got from the producers was a strong maybe, leaning toward yes.

 

 

 

George R.R. Martin has never asked them to change the material; he is happy with the changes generally, particularly the Bronn-Sandor scene in “Blackwater.”

 

The scene where the producer wanted representation of the "pervert side" of the audience? I'm reminded of GRRM posting that he needs a cold shower after watching Shae audition videos.

 

The Cersei/Robert scene is the first that comes to my mind when I think of additions that fans have been almost universally happy with.

 

 

 

It looks like Bronn and Jaime have secured the Dornish guards’ costumes, and are up to no good. It seems like this may be how they sneak into the palace and find Myrcella, as this leak hints.

 

These set photos show that they were filming 5x09 in Dorne, with Jaime in Dornish noble costume and Doran/Ellaria/Areo also present. So will he be the one taking Myrcella back to KL, "winning" in 5x09 by getting Doran's permission for her departure, and then in 5x10 Doran tells the Sand Snakes that they'll go with Jaime and should scheme against the Lannisters once they arrive in the city?

 

I like that Ellaria has cut her hair and looks like she's wearing pieces of Oberyn's armor.

 

Edit: this shows that Myrcella and Trystane are in the scene too, which looks like a friendly chat. I guess she lives, then.

Edited October 16, 2014 by ElizaD

[Advance35]

In ADWD the last we saw of Myrcella, she was on her way to Kings Landing, though her face was scarred right?    For television reasons I think they are going to go against making anyone completely unattractive.   Hence why we didn't have Brienne with a chewed off face.

[mac123x]

In ADWD the last we saw of Myrcella, she was on her way to Kings Landing, though her face was scarred right?    For television reasons I think they are going to go against making anyone completely unattractive.   Hence why we didn't have Brienne with a chewed off face.

 

The last Dornish scene in ADWD is Doran telling the Sand Snakes about Cercei's plot to have Trystane killed, and his own plot to blame Myrcella's injuries on Dorkstar.  The chapter ended before the Martells + Balon Swann ever left for the Water Gardens to meet up with Myrcella.  Kind of frustrating, since it was all setup and no payoff, nor did Doran ever explain how he's going to thwart Cercei's scheme:  not send Trystane?  Send a bunch of Trystane doppelgangers?  Assume that Nym and Tyene will be able to keep him alive?

[Winnief]

To me, the fun of the Others around book 2-3 was the anticipation of the moment when they move south and the big players scramble to respond to this utterly unexpected and apocalyptic complication of their game. Stages of denial and horror and all that. "Dragons are back?! The Others are real?!" But now it looks like most of the book cast are going to die in painful yet mundane ways as a result of the same old game without getting to those reaction shots. I guess Walder Frey might meet Stoneheart and Cersei might live long enough to hear that Tyrion has a dragon.

At least the show's seven season plan should get Dany to Westeros sooner than the books where GRRM said she won't meet Tyrion for a while. I really like the idea that Dany rides Drogon in 5x09 and 5x10 is a greatly altered version of the Harpy attacks/the Battle of Meereen that ends with Dany and Tyrion sharing a scene. And if there's no Aegon, Show Dany vs. Show Cersei and/or Olenna might even happen.

 

 

 

Yeah, to me it's always been a real shame that we didn't get to see the reactions of players like Tywin and LF to White Walkers/aka a problem that CAN"T be solved via brutality or back alley dealing while at the same time the dawning realization that while figures like King Robert Baratheon, Ned Stark, and Robb might have been abysmal at politics they would have been really useful for a campaign against the Others being natural born fighters and all.  (Tywin wasn't really a great military commander-his success again was in making deals and his willingness to inflict a level of brutality that no one else ever had-two things that wouldn't have done jack shit about White Walkers or for that matter dragons.)

 

  I also suspect the Stark bloodline has always been pivotal somehow to an alliance with the CotF and to combatting the White Walkers and that would have been an interesting revelation to some parties-you Boltons, Frey's, Lannister's, and LF all ended up driving a certain Great House to near extinction and then you find out that particular Great House is essential to fighting an Enemy you never could have dreamed of....whoops!  (Seriously what would Tywin have done about that?)  I think that could have been TONS of fun-though maybe that could still play a role in Jaime's redemption arc.  Not to mention everyone's reaction to learning about a certain bombshell Ned hid away all those years...

 

Oh well, as the show is splitting from the books, more and more, that does indeed bring hope of at least some confrontations happening like Cersei/Dany or Dany/Olenna or something.  Or maybe even just maybe seeing some of the reactions from some of the Great Houses to having the White Walkers come south, if on the show that happens earlier than in the book series, (which I really REALLY hope it does,) to help fit everything in seven seasons.  I do feel like the revelation at Craster's and the acceleration of Bran's storyline might have been to help goose that particular plot along a bit.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Winnief

[benteen]

I can understand wanting to go to Dorne for a change of scenery but it annoys me that we're getting more of Dorne while the more important Riverlands are going to be ignored for the second straight season.  Most likely because D and D have a chance for more sex and nudity to appease the "pervert" side of the audience with.

Edited October 18, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

Well to be fair, I think they also want Dorne as a change of pace from everything we've seen so far.  I mean they're clearly taking advantage to get some truly great scenery shots in Spain.  Of course I still hold out hope for Jaime meeting Brienne in the Riverlands for an important story there.

[Holmbo]

I can understand wanting to go to Dorne for a change of scenery but it annoys me that we're getting more of Dorne while the more important Riverlands are going to be ignored for the second straight season. Most likely because D and D have a chance for more sex and nudity to appease the "pervert" side of the audience with.

Considering that the book plot in riverlands has really only been build up so far I can see why d&d wants to wait another season to reintroduce it.

That said I'm not to excited by dorne based on the stuff that has been leaked so far.

[Cheshrkat]

Re: Dorne, I'm just worried that the North is once again going to be overshadowed and underrepresented in the show.

[Winnief]

I wouldn't worry too much about that-according to Watchers on the Wall they've been spotted doing some serious filming in Northern Ireland for what looks like a Wall centric storyline.  Again, I have this feeling the show wants to 'goose' the White Walker plot a bit and that was one reason for the reveal of what happened to Craster's sons.  Also it's more than likely what's happening at the Wall will coincide with other Northern storylines next season-I've already seen pictures of filming at Winterfell (YAY!) only its draped with Bolton banners, (BOO!), and I'm thinking we may even get the Battle of Winterfell next season if we're lucky.  FIngers crossed.

[Advance35]

I don't mind Jaimie's Riverlands storyline being derailed because I fear that is going to be a jump the shark moment for his story.   There is NO way he should survive Brienne's trap and meeting Lady Stoneheart.   No deals, No manuevers, no promise to find Sansa (he made that promise when she was alive), a meeting with Stoneheart in the Riverlands should result in his death, if that not going to happen (I question what contrived way Jaimie will get out of it) than I'd rather not see it in the show.

 

I do wish we had more than 10 episodes as I think everything following Book 3, shows that in addition to being a much rougher and more combative place, The North has become a region of manuevering as well.   Lord Manderly, Lady Dustin, The Boltons, are all schemers who I have no doubt could hold their own in Kings Landing.

 

I saw that Watchers on the Wall have posted pictures of the Sand Snakes, in costume.   I really wish each were individualized like they are in the book.  I believe Obara is a clear warrior, Tyene looks like a harmless maiden and Lady Nym is a mixture of the two.

[ElizaD]

Re: Dorne, I'm just worried that the North is once again going to be overshadowed and underrepresented in the show.

 

After the "Lannisters are the new core family" comment I've been trying to resign myself to the North only getting the plot/screentime that's absolutely necessary, though not with the best of success since IMO the Northern POVs in ADWD were by far the best-written parts of the post-ASOS books. I'd been hoping that the presence of Theon, who the showrunners love, would help, but I'm no longer sure of that since there's no news of Fake Arya or any lord, Manderly or Umber, who could represent the anti-Bolton sentiment.

 

I don't mind Jaimie's Riverlands storyline being derailed because I fear that is going to be a jump the shark moment for his story.   There is NO way he should survive Brienne's trap and meeting Lady Stoneheart.

 

I saw that Watchers on the Wall have posted pictures of the Sand Snakes, in costume.   I really wish each were individualized like they are in the book.  I believe Obara is a clear warrior, Tyene looks like a harmless maiden and Lady Nym is a mixture of the two.

 

I've always had the feeling that in the Jaime/Stoneheart confrontation story (Jaime will live to meet Cersei again) would trump believability (the Lannisters and their allies, including Jaime with his threats to Edmure, have repeatedly demonstrated that they should not be trusted or given second chances).

 

The show did such a good job putting Brienne in the same kind of armor as the serious male fighters that I'm disappointed they're going the "nipples on boobplates" route with the Sand Snakes. I'd expected them to use costuming to illustrate the differences in the Sand Snakes' personalities. Hopefully it'll still happen when they aren't in their Sand Snakes United armor, or Nymeria and Tyene are in danger of becoming the hot one with a whip and the hot one with daggers; Obara is played by an Oscar-nominee, so her odds of having an individual personality are the best.