Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Holmbo]

D&D specifically said they were using the teleporter next season to get Jaime from Dorne to the Riverlands so yeah they will feature that. 

 

Plothole! Littlefinger left KL before Jaime got there so how could he then have given him his teleporter?

 

Without fake Aegon though, I'm wondering what Varys's storyline will be because Fake Aegon is the one who Varys has thrown in with.

I'm very curious about that. I hope they have some kind of long plot for him in the show as well. Something that explains his conversation with Illyrio in season one. I haven't heard anything about Illyrio being back. It's crazy really how few characters that has been announced as returning this season. I would have been expecting:

-Illyrio

-Lancell and/or Kevan

-Walder Frey (because I am expecting him to get comeuppance and if they wait too long people wont care as much)

-Blackfish

-BWB members. Thoros, Anguy and possibly Beric if SH is not in.

 

I've heard about none of these returning. It's crazy. Cersei, Margaery and Loras will feel lonely in KL. Perhaps Cersei can get Illyn Payne as a drinking buddy since Jaime wont be needing him. (I actaully read that the actor got treatment for his cancer and is doing better, don't know if it's true)

[Winnief]

 

 

Illyrio

-Lancell and/or Kevan

-Walder Frey (because I am expecting him to get comeuppance and if they wait too long people wont care as much)

-Blackfish

-BWB members. Thoros, Anguy and possibly Beric if SH is not in.

 

Don't know about the others, but I'm convinced that Walder will get his next season-either they'll have a Red Wedding 2.0 in the North with Frey's and Bolton's getting slaughtered together, OR Brienne's storyline next season will intersect with coming violence at the Twins.  Or both.  And I still predict the Blackfish will turn up either to Brienne, Sansa or both.  

 

It's looking increasingly like we won't get the Griff's and you wouldn't believe the amount of moaning about how terrible it is we'll miss the second Dance.  Personally I'm not sure the Dance, (however good it sounds on paper,) would have worked for filming anyway.  How exciting is it going to be watching Dany's bigger army with actual dragons stomp Aegon's army without dragons?!?  I mean at least with Dany vs. Euron you get the satisfaction of seeing a bad guy go down, plus all that black magic shit could liven things up a bit.  Nor will I miss Arianne.  I assume the other sand snakes survive because they will somehow bring about the deaths of Tommen and/or Myrcella, and may play a role in Cersei and Margaery's trials as well.  Of course only time will tell, how the YMBQ (whoever that is though, I have my suspicions,) contributes to the deaths of Cersei's other children if even inadvertently.  

[ElizaD]

Also sending Mace to Braavos sets it up for Loras to be the acting head of House Tyrell-and heck Mace might not even make it back alive which would make Loras Lord of Highgarden and that could have all kinds of repercussions in the series.  Remember, Martin did hint the Tyrell brothers would have a role to come-probably involving the Iron Born.  

 

 

Agreed.  I know, Martin wanted fAegon for the Perken Warbeck thing but really, the whole storyline felt like a waste to me.  It stole Dany's thunder, it will make the reveal about Jon less interesting, and I'm not looking forward to seeing *another* failed regime in KL before Dany gets there.  It just seemed like more meandering and unlike Martin, D&D can't afford that.  They have to start resolving some plots and getting to the climaxes and character arcs people actually care about.

 

At the very least, this neatly gets Show Mace out of the city so that he can't interfere with Margaery's arrest. It looks like KL is going to be crazy in TWOW: he might die and Book Willas/Show Loras becomes Lord.

 

IMO, the show's worst flaw has been its tendency to get rid of moral complexity (I don't think GRRM is terribly deep, but he's not afraid to have likeable characters at odds with each other or occasionally doing screwed-up things). GRRM's worst flaw is meandering, and the show simply has to correct that because it can't stop production for years or build endless new sets for sidetrips. For better or worse, it's going ahead. And while I dread cuts that will hurt me (Stoneheart is very likely gone, Manderly might be gone), when S5 airs I'll have been waiting for almost 10 years for new Sansa material: though I wish I'd gotten to read it, finally I'll find out where her story is going.

 

Without fake Aegon though, I'm wondering what Varys's storyline will be because Fake Aegon is the one who Varys has thrown in with.

 

It's very possible the Lannister mines are running dry in the books.  They've been fighting a costly war for years, the Crown still hasn't paid them back, and Robb's forces raided three Lannister gold mines during the war.

 

Varys could reveal that he'd been supporting Dany all along; it would lead to some inconsistencies, but I don't think those would be major enough that non-readers would notice or care about them.

 

When the episode aired, I remember someone commenting that it would have been nice if the mine situation had been linked to damage caused by Robb's raids. That would have given him a little win from the grave.

 

I don't care for Euron in the books, but he's a character who could really work on TV with a charismatic actor and more screentime. And the plot might still require a human villain to screw things up in the south. Though Book Connington is one candidate for Tommen's killer, he and Aegon aren't really villains, just obstacles on Dany's way to the big battle and the main cast (and she's had enough distractions already).

Edited September 1, 2014 by ElizaD

[benteen]

It would be a nice victory for Robb from beyond the grave to have helped bleed out the Lannister gold mines.  He did a good amount of damage to the Westerlands and that should be taken into consideration too.

[Winnief]

 

I don't care for Euron in the books, but he's a character who could really work on TV with a charismatic actor and more screentime. And the plot might still require a human villain to screw things up in the south. Though Book Connington is one candidate for Tommen's killer, he and Aegon aren't really villains, just obstacles on Dany's way to the big battle and the main cast (and she's had enough distractions already).

 

Precisely.  fAegon just isn't that compelling a character-nor is Arianne.  Since the Boltons are doomed the show needs a new Baddie hence Euron.  

 

I do like the notion that Robb helped ruin the Lannister's after all.  Sigh a missed opportunity.

 

 

For better or worse, it's going ahead. And while I dread cuts that will hurt me (Stoneheart is very likely gone, Manderly might be gone), when S5 airs I'll have been waiting for almost 10 years for new Sansa material: though I wish I'd gotten to read it, finally I'll find out where her story is going.

Tell the truth, Sansa's the one I'm most excited about for next season.  

 

I'd miss Stoneheart and Manderly, but I'm hopeful we'll still get Frey Pie!

[Holmbo]

Don't know about the others, but I'm convinced that Walder will get his next season-either they'll have a Red Wedding 2.0 in the North with Frey's and Bolton's getting slaughtered together, OR Brienne's storyline next season will intersect with coming violence at the Twins.  Or both.  And I still predict the Blackfish will turn up either to Brienne, Sansa or both.  

From what I've heard the actor has been asked if he is returning for season 5 and he has said no. I do feel like Blackfish has to turn up though. Either with BwB or at Winterfell or in the Vale. He has done nothing of plot significance so far and still they introduced him in season 3. So he must have some purpose.

 

I don't care for Euron in the books, but he's a character who could really work on TV with a charismatic actor and more screentime. And the plot might still require a human villain to screw things up in the south. Though Book Connington is one candidate for Tommen's killer, he and Aegon aren't really villains, just obstacles on Dany's way to the big battle and the main cast (and she's had enough distractions already).

I think that Cersei, Frey and Boltons will be the last villains on the show before the white walkers finally starts moving for real. Though I do feel like there must be someone more in Kingslanding to take advantage of the power vacum that will probably be in the end of next season. Unless Margaery survives her trial and takes up everyday ruling. By the way who else is expecting small council scenes with Cersei, Margaery, Tommen, Pycelle and Qyburn next season? Could be potentially awesome.

[Winnief]

Ok maybe based on David Bradley's comments Walder won't be coming back...doesn't mean we can't see some other Frey's get theirs, and have someone (Manderly or Umber,) say "The North Remembers."

 

In any event, I'm betting HBO won't be able to resist Frey pie.  The cut between the Rat Cook story and Walder was clearly foreshadowing.

[Lady S.]

Why bother casting Bowen Marsh at this point?  He's a character that should have been established a lot sooner if he's to be the one to betray Jon.  I would just use Marsh as a background character to Ser Alliser at this point.  They're already introduced the Chief Builder and he can be his lackey too.

The fact that the Othell Yarwyck actor filled Bowen's role in s1 only to be given a different character's name made me think that they were either cutting Bowen or waiting to have him be another late-introduced-featured-player, but an unknown actor in an unannounced casting confirmed with only three episode credits points more toward a minor character who will probably play some part in arguing with Jon and then assassinating him, while leaving the Brutus spot for Alliser.

 

D&D specifically said they were using the teleporter next season to get Jaime from Dorne to the Riverlands so yeah they will feature that. 

Source? I've just been following the site from the former WiC gang and have seen nothing that looks like confirmation of the Riverlands. (I've given up on the baby trebuchet part at least, Tobias Menzies appears to be not even in contact with D&D while working steadily now.)

 

Knowing that the Walk is coming, I have to wonder who Cersei can find to be her sex-paid assassin, or if she'll just have to confess to her fornication with Lancel unrelated to her scheming to get Marg arrested for adultery. But having no Lancel and no Kettleblack-proxy seems pretty impossible, right? 

[Notwisconsin]

There's a thing in the HUffingtonpost about the Cerci walk of shame being filmed, or the negotiations to do same. That's at the end of book five..they're running out of book, dammit!

[ElizaD]

Kristian Nairn:

 

In a recent interview with the Australian Broadcasting Commission, Kristian Nairn — the actor who plays Bran's loyal ally Hodor in the HBO drama — revealed that Bran and Hodor won't appear in the show's fifth season at all.

"We have a season off and we have a year's hiatus, solely because I imagine our storyline is up to the end of the books," said Nairn. He adds that he plans to use the time off to travel around the world as a DJ, hosting a series of Game of Thrones-themed dance parties under the title "Rave of Thrones."

 

Even though Bran was running out of material, I didn't expect this.

[Skeeter22]

I'm shocked that they didn't have filler planned for Bran this season. That just seems like poor planning to me. They shouldn't have pushed the plot forward if they knew they didn't have anything more for him.

[KatWay]

Bran's plot moved at glacial speed anyways, I'm not sure how much more they could have stalled that except for maybe only showing him twice a season. I suppose from a budgetary point of view it might make more sense for them to not pay the actor for a whole season rather than paying him as a regular and only using him a few times?

I do hope they made sure that he's required to come back though. I can't take any more recasting.

[jjjmoss]

Hooray, so the next time we see a guy who's still 9 (10?) in the books, the actor will be 16! That's okay right?

Edited September 3, 2014 by jjjmoss

[companionenvy]

I actually wonder if maybe this means that the next time we see Bran, he'll have changed so radically that whether the actor looks 10 or 20 is not going to be a major issue. 

[Winnief]

 

I actually wonder if maybe this means that the next time we see Bran, he'll have changed so radically that whether the actor looks 10 or 20 is not going to be a major issue.

 

That's what I'm wondering...that maybe they're waiting to have Bran come back in full greenseer/Tree mode for Season 6, skipping over his training because frankly it won't be as interesting to viewers as Arya's assassin training or Sansa learning to play the game?!?

[Dev F]

I've seen the story reported this way several places, but I don't believe the original interview states unequivocally that Bran won't be in season 5, just Hodor and an unspecified party he refers to as "we." There's been some speculation elsewhere that "we" refers to him and Meera, who might no longer be needed as Bran's protectors now that his storyline centers around him hanging out in a tree with an old man.

[benteen]

Well, so much for Bran's storyline being used to focus on the badly neglected backstory of the Stark family....

 

I didn't expect this either.  Part of me can understand it with how slow Bran's plot is moving (thanks largely to GRRM's writing) but part of me wonders if this isn't a bad idea.  The excuse for showing Theon's torture was they didn't want to put Alfie Allen on the self.  But that's basically what they'll be doing with Bran here.

 

Bran looking older when he returns doesn't bother me...I'm more than willing to handwave that he's aged a little quicker do to being hooked up to the weirwood.

 

Sounds like they might be doing GRRM a solid by not going into Bran's later storylines but I'm disappointed.  I basically want them to spoil as much of Winds of Winter as possible just to stick it to GRRM for his "don't push me, I'm coming" style of writing.

 

I don't know...I'm mixed on this and I don't like the further marginalizing of the Starks by D and D (although again, I blame GRRM's storytelling much more for that than D and D's Lannister fetish).

 

Now, if Bran is coming back and it's just Hodor and Meera who aren't coming back, that would make a little more sense.  Hodor and Meera are kind of useless at this point but again, not seeing them would be odd because neither of them would abandon Bran.  Not to mention the trip back would be absolute murder.

Edited September 4, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

 

I've seen the story reported this way several places, but I don't believe the original interview states unequivocally that Bran won't be in season 5, just Hodor and an unspecified party he refers to as "we." There's been some speculation elsewhere that "we" refers to him and Meera, who might no longer be needed as Bran's protectors now that his storyline centers around him hanging out in a tree with an old man.

 

Good point.

 

 

Now, if Bran is coming back and it's just Hodor and Meera who aren't coming back, that would make a little more sense.  Hodor and Meera are kind of useless at this point but again, seeing them would be odd because neither of them would abandon Bran.  Not to mention the trip back would be absolute murder.

 

They might do something like mention Meera or Hodor being around, but just never bother showing them on screen since they wouldn't be 'training' with Bran but might be off hunting or something instead.

[Notwisconsin]

Hodor and Meera should get a denumount at some point. Sure their story pretty much pooped out in the books, but it would be nice to find out what happened to them.

[Lady S.]

This is really not going to help the viewing majority who no longer care about Bran. Bloodraven means little enough so having Bran only return as TreeCaveCreeper 2.0 would only make people more annoyed at his scenes.

[Dev F]

Hodor and Meera should get a denumount at some point. Sure their story pretty much pooped out in the books, but it would be nice to find out what happened to them.

 

There are rumors that some material got cut from the end of Bran's storyline at the end of last season and will air at the beginning of next season instead. (It's vaguely substantiated by the resume of the girl who played Leaf, which has her appearing in episode 1 of season 5 but lists the director as Alex Graves, who isn't directing an episode next season but did direct the season 4 finale.) Perhaps they've already filmed a scene where Bran says goodbye to Hodor and Meera?

[Lady S.]

If it is just Hodor and Meera taking S5 off, which I agree seems most likely, I don't think they have to have a goodbye scene. Can't they just be offscreen in the cave somewhere while Bran's busy with his vision quests and maybe giving voiceovers to Theon's sl? Like how Rickon was offscreen at Winterfell for most of Bran's s1 scenes. I don't think Bran's going to get the screentime he had in s1 regardless, so his supporting players would be even less needed than s1 Rickon and therefore could be sidelined completely.

 

There are rumors that some material got cut from the end of Bran's storyline at the end of last season and will air at the beginning of next season instead. 

The same source (the rumors originate from a commenter on Not-WiC) claims Kevan and Lancel are returning, along with Gendry, for whatever that's worth.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Lady S.

[jjjmoss]

Hodor and Meera should get a denumount at some point. Sure their story pretty much pooped out in the books, but it would be nice to find out what happened to them.

 

Anyway, hopefully if Bran is down, that means more Queen Sansa to compensate in terms of Stark time.

Edited September 5, 2014 by SilverStormm
See PM.

[benteen]

This is really not going to help the viewing majority who no longer care about Bran. Bloodraven means little enough so having Bran only return as TreeCaveCreeper 2.0 would only make people more annoyed at his scenes.

 

TreeCaveCreeper...heheh.

 

The show has been known to take scenes from one episode and move them to the next episode.  So their is a precedent for it.  But moving a scene (or scenes) from one season to another is very unlikely. 

[Holmbo]

Isaac confirms he'll be in season 5.
http://winteriscoming.net/2014/09/04/isaac-hempstead-wright-confirms-appearance-season-5-game-thrones/

He sort of confirmed it already in an earlier interview but here there's no doubt. He says explicitly at the end people will see him in the next season.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Holmbo

[Ambrosefolly]

I know that some applauded Maisie William's response to  

the exclusion Lady Stoneheart

in the next season because original fandom can be quite snobby about the stuff they discover that blow up in the mainstream, but I found the her answer mean spirited. For one thing, I don't know  spoilers of the books unless I go out looking for it (or that can just be me), another, there would be no Game of Thrones if it weren't for these first hard core fans, so I found it in poor taste to broadcast how much contempt she has for these fans because they may or may not spoil the show for new fans. 

 

I think it just struck a cord for me about how when geek culture becomes  mainstream (superhero comic books for example), they more or less tell the original that aren't really needed anymore. 

Edited September 6, 2014 by Ambrosefolly

[KatWay]

I didn't think it was mean spirited - Most book readers I know, especially in this forum and back then on TWOP are very careful with spoilers, but people all over the internet really don't care, or especially on youtube (that I've seen, I'm sure other places too), people just post spoilers for the hell of it. I saw references to Joffrey's death and the Red Wedding all the way in Season 1 videos. Yes, yes it's in the books and they're out there for anyone to read, but some people are really extremely snobbish about it and seem to take delight in trying to spoil other people's enjoyment. I think that's the thing she was responding to, and I also think she really wants the show to stand on its own and be seen as that. While I think the books are better than the show (which IMO, not taking into accounts changes made from the book, suffers from stilted dialogue sometimes and unimaginative cinematography), I think the show should be seen more as its own medium, an adaptation of the original series with its own twists and turns rather than simply putting the words GRRM put on a page into moving pictures.

 

I don't think it means that the original fans aren't needed anymore - lots of shows and movies based on something original put stuff in for the original fans, little winks that only they'd understand. Without the book readers these shows/movies wouldn't happen and I think mostly the showrunners and writers seem appreciative of them.

[Skeeter22]

I think there's a difference between deliberately spoiling the series and accidentally mentioning a spoiler. I'm careful about separating the books from what's happened on the show, but I know a lot of people struggle with that. I'm sympathetic to people who want to be unspoiled, but it's a nearly 20 year old series. At some point, you have to expect some things to be spoiled, particularly a highly anticipated character like Lady Stoneheart. Book readers should be more sensitive, and people from the show and spoiler-free watchers need to lighten up. If you want a completely spoiler free show, watch Mad Men. As it is, book readers have almost run out of spoilers.

[Hecate7]

Yeah, 20 years is an awfully long time to demand that someone keep his mouth shut. It's like people getting angry because you "spoiled" Hamlet or Oedipus Rex.

[Holmbo]

Yeah, 20 years is an awfully long time to demand that someone keep his mouth shut. It's like people getting angry because you "spoiled" Hamlet or Oedipus Rex.

I sometimes get annoyed at the way it's considered ok to tell the ending of any classic book. Growing up I read a lot but it was mostly YA and there was many times where the plot of some well known book would be told in passing. Usually I hadn't even heard of the book at the time and suddenly I knew the whole overall plot and ending to it. Just cause I haven't read that book when i was 15 doesn't mean I was never going to read it.

[Maximum Taco]

I sometimes get annoyed at the way it's considered ok to tell the ending of any classic book. Growing up I read a lot but it was mostly YA and there was many times where the plot of some well known book would be told in passing. Usually I hadn't even heard of the book at the time and suddenly I knew the whole overall plot and ending to it. Just cause I haven't read that book when i was 15 doesn't mean I was never going to read it.

 

This makes things pretty difficult though.

 

I realize that not everyone reads every book, but at the same time not everyone watches every movie. I know people who haven't seen the Matrix or Star Wars, does that mean I should be walking on eggshells for the rest of my life even though those movies came out decades ago? That's not to say you shouldn't be considerate, if you start talking about something and someone says "I haven't seen/read it no spoilers please" you should shut up and change the subject, but if it's told in passing, well people reference things they know that they think other people will know, and that's never gonna stop.

 

There needs to be a statute of limitations on spoilers or pop culture will die.

[Hecate7]

Exactly.

It is too late to complain about spoilers when you're referring to Harry Potter, the first 4 books of Game of Thrones, the first 2 seasons of Game of Thrones, and the plots of plays by Shakespeare, Sophocles, and Aristophanes, and The Wizard of Oz.

 

I have a friend who yelps about spoilers. 4 years ago I gave him the books. He STILL hasn't begun to read them because "it will take so long." I think if you have that kind of attitude, you have forfeited your right to yelp about book spoilers. This goes double for people who still haven't read the final Harry Potter book.

[Holmbo]

Well I don't mean never mention any plot point to any work of literature ever. To me I guess it depends what audience the plot point is mentioned to and for what reason.

Anyways talking about spoilers I have a hypothetical question. If GRRM was to die before the show is finished (and the books) and his notes for the end game was published/made public would you want to read them or would you rather find out the ending from the show? And would you get mad at friends and/or websites if they did not consider those notes spoilers?
(Note this is a hypothetical question. It's not a health speculation or anything, I could ask the same question about any writer. Like if you where a fan of Rowling and she died before writing her last book. Would you rather read her outline or wait for the movie.)

Edited September 8, 2014 by Holmbo

[WearyTraveler]

Having waited so long for it, I think I'd read the notes as soon as they became available! Also, who knows if the TV show will execute everything GRRM left in written notes? (I don't ding them for that, it's a whole different medium).  I'd want to know everything the author intended, so, I'd definitely read the notes.

 

I would also try my best not to spoil any of it to people who would choose to wait for the show.

[ElizaD]

I'd read the notes first because that would be the most authentic ending (for example, I'm hoping and predicting that there won't be a TV Aegon, but I do want to know how Book Aegon dies). In general, I have little problem with spoilers. I only avoid them if a show has exceptionally good plotting, and even then I enjoy speculation and preview screencap analysis before the episode airs. I'd expect the notes to be treated as spoilers in general discussion threads until the last episode of GOT.

 

Myranda returns in S5

 

IMO, no Fake Arya is more likely than sadistic Myranda being FA, but she could end up being the pro-Bolton/Frey murder victim if the show gets to Theon's late ADWD content.

Edited September 8, 2014 by ElizaD

[Winnief]

 

IMO, no Fake Arya is more likely than sadistic Myranda being FA, but she could end up being the pro-Bolton/Frey murder victim if the show gets to Theon's late ADWD content.

 

Agreed.  I think the show's decided to skip FakeArya altogether, (Theon might still be rescuing some poor girl from Ramsay but I think it might be one of the women chosen for the 'hunts') and a good thing too, since with rumors circulating that Rickon and Bran are still alive would just annoy viewers.  Miranda being brought in to have someone to be murdered at Winterfell who viewers *won't* feel bad about though totally fits.  

[Hecate7]

Well I don't mean never mention any plot point to any work of literature ever. To me I guess it depends what audience the plot point is mentioned to and for what reason.

Anyways talking about spoilers I have a hypothetical question. If GRRM was to die before the show is finished (and the books) and his notes for the end game was published/made public would you want to read them or would you rather find out the ending from the show? And would you get mad at friends and/or websites if they did not consider those notes spoilers?

(Note this is a hypothetical question. It's not a health speculation or anything, I could ask the same question about any writer. Like if you where a fan of Rowling and she died before writing her last book. Would you rather read her outline or wait for the movie.)

I'd try not to spoil it for others, but I honestly am completely indifferent to spoilers. I am always trying to find out stuff before it's out there, and it never spoils my enjoyment of anything, to know how it ends, with the possible exception of an M. Night Shamalayan movie or two. Even then, the second watching is always more fun.

Agreed.  I think the show's decided to skip FakeArya altogether, (Theon might still be rescuing some poor girl from Ramsay but I think it might be one of the women chosen for the 'hunts') and a good thing too, since with rumors circulating that Rickon and Bran are still alive would just annoy viewers.  Miranda being brought in to have someone to be murdered at Winterfell who viewers *won't* feel bad about though totally fits.  

Without fake Arya there is no point to continuing Theon OR Ramsey. Fake Arya is the whole point of those characters, so far. I predict Myranda will either be fake Arya, (which is kind of a cop-out because she's so sadistic no one will really sympathize with her getting a bit of her own medicine), or she will be killed to make room for Fake Arya.

[benteen]

Although what happened to Jeyne Poole was horrible, Fake Arya needs to be an innocent.  Myranda is not an innocent.  She was shown to be just as bad as Ramsay. 

[riff-raff]

It is going to be interesting to see the choices made for Season 5.  

 

Personally, I'm glad that signs seem to be pointing to Griff/Young Griff's storyline being cut.  It felt like an irritating distraction in the books and I have no interest in seeing that on the show. Time and resources are precious and I'd rather them spent on Dany's central arc in Mereen and her dragons.   Heck, I'd even take Quentin over the Griffs for that reason.  At least I felt that Quentin's plot was orbiting in the same general universe as established story lines.  

 

I don't see how they can cut fAyra, however.  They would have to change Jon's storyline and motivations too much.  I suppose they could have Theon save some random girl, and have Jon's betrayal grounded on the strength of his pro-wildling policies, but that seems unsatisfying.  The only other option I see is for Sansa to somehow fall within Ramsey's clutches to play the role of the Stark girl in distress.  It would make sense from a show-runner perspective.  It keeps known characters together and gives Sansa something to do.   But, I can't see how they could explain away Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (and her purported role in Joffery's murder), plus I don't want to see her as the perpetual victim.  

 

Other musings.  Could the real Arya come back to Westeros on an mission to avenge her family and be captured by Ramsay?  I wouldn't mind that IF the end result is Ramsay getting "the pointy end."  

Edited September 9, 2014 by riff-raff

[benteen]

I could live with Fake Arya being a random girl.  So long as it isn't Myranda, who is not an innocent.

[Hecate7]

Although what happened to Jeyne Poole was horrible, Fake Arya needs to be an innocent.  Myranda is not an innocent.  She was shown to be just as bad as Ramsay. 

I'm inclined to agree, unless of course Myranda is only pretending to be the way she is in order to survive, in which case she still could have helped Tansy escape. I think we're supposed to really hate her.

 

If Arya is inept enough to get captured by Ramsey she can forget about the pointy end of anything ever falling into her hands long enough for her to do anything useful with it. I don't think those two should meet for quite some time. She's got no reason as yet to seek him out--she has no idea who he is.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

I agree with Hecate7 in that I feel Theon's story will be almost pointless without Fake Arya. I can deal with Fake Arya being some random girl but would prefer for them to just go with the Jeyne Poole character. I don't see the point in introducing a new character when they already have a character they can just go with whose name at least has already been put out there.

I would definitely read the notes before watching the show ending if I had the option. I spoiled myself silly for a lot of ADWD. I think the main stuff I didn't know about were Jon's Julius Caesar moment, the Pink letter, and the stuff with either Bran or Davos.

As excited as I am to head into this season as a partially Unsullied, I know I'll be all over any Sansa spoilers that happen to get out. I can't help myself!

[Winnief]

 

I agree with Hecate7 in that I feel Theon's story will be almost pointless without Fake Arya. I can deal with Fake Arya being some random girl but would prefer for them to just go with the Jeyne Poole character. I don't see the point in introducing a new character when they already have a character they can just go with whose name at least has already been put out there.

 

Random girl or Jeyne Poole I can live with FakeArya if:

 

a. Not Miranda.  As said it has to be an innocent victim.  Again though, could be just a victim of Miranda and Ramsay's without her being a fake Arya to motivate Theon's escape attempt.

 

b. We don't have to see ALL the horrors FakeArya was subjected to in the books.  It was tough enough reading that much less watching it.  Viewers already understand that being wed to Ramsay would be a horror show for any non-sadistic type-there's no need to get too graphic here.

[Holmbo]

 

b. We don't have to see ALL the horrors FakeArya was subjected to in the books.  It was tough enough reading that much less watching it.  Viewers already understand that being wed to Ramsay would be a horror show for any non-sadistic type-there's no need to get too graphic here.

I agree about that. I hope that for once the show will go with imply instead of show.

I was gonna say that Myranda is way to old to be fake Arya but i looked at the actress page and she looked really young. She could pass for a teenager I think. Unless those are old picture. I can't actually remember exactly how she looks in the show.

But I don't think she will be fake Arya anyway. As been said we miss the most important reason for her to be there if she's not someone that Theon would want to save. What else should we have her for? To show again how crazy Ramsay is?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Holmbo

[riff-raff]

"We don't have to see ALL the horrors FakeArya was subjected to in the books.  It was tough enough reading that much less watching it.  Viewers already understand that being wed to Ramsay would be a horror show for any non-sadistic type-there's no need to get too graphic here."

 

 

 

I agree, I don't want to watch that.  Plus, in the books, wasn't Jayne 15?  Even with an older actress, I would hope they show some discretion.   The hard thing about showing this arc on the show, is that it was Reek's compassion for Jayne that started him on the path of becoming Theon again.  We don't have the benefit of Theon's internal thoughts as we did in the books, so he has to see her pain in some way for it to work.  Maybe they show scenes of him bringing up bath water and she cries/talks to him?

 

[Avaleigh]

I don't know that we need to see any of the torture FA goes through. Some off stage screams and cries coupled with a tearful conversation of some kind should do the trick.

Another reason I'd like it to be Jeyne Poole is that I feel like they could give her a bit of Lady Dustin's character. I'd prefer to have both characters but if made to choose I think Jeyne is easily more important. I can see Theon and show Jeyne having a conversation about how they both wanted to be Starks and how maybe with Jeyne it was something she actively wished for at one point only to have it sort of come true in such horrifying fashion. We could hear that she was a friend of Sansa's but was also always a little jealous of her too. Instead of mentioning having had an affair with Robb as Lady Dustin did with Brandon, maybe she just reminisces about the crush she had on him before they all left Winterfell.

I also think it's crucial that Jeyne or whoever it ends up being menions Littlefinger's role in all of this. The audience needs another reminder about how horrible he is IMO. He's gotten a lot of undeserved credit for saving Sansa from Lysa among other things. I sometimes get the impression that a lot of Unsullied viewers see him in a much more favorable light than many bookreaders do.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Hecate7]

I don't see how they can cut fAyra, however.  They would have to change Jon's storyline and motivations too much.  I suppose they could have Theon save some random girl, and have Jon's betrayal grounded on the strength of his pro-wildling policies, but that seems unsatisfying.  The only other option I see is for Sansa to somehow fall within Ramsey's clutches to play the role of the Stark girl in distress.  It would make sense from a show-runner perspective.  It keeps known characters together and gives Sansa something to do.   But, I can't see how they could explain away Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (and her purported role in Joffery's murder), plus I don't want to see her as the perpetual victim.  

 

It makes sense in a way, to have Sansa be fArya, but it probably disrupts Sansa's real arc. LF is directly responsible for fArya, but I think he has other plans for Sansa. I hope he does, anyway. I could see lying and calling Sansa Arya, even though Sansa has the superior claim, in order to get around the Lannister marriage, but it's actually hard to see what LF would gain by giving Sansa to the Boltons.

[ElizaD]

Sansa won't be Fake Arya. In her own identity, she's a married wanted regicide and the Boltons won't tell Cersei that they're keeping her instead of handing her over to the justice of the regime that gave them their current claim to Winterfell. And Littlefinger has no reason to give her to the Boltons. He'd be abandoning his Cat fantasy (whose identity on the show has already been revealed to select Vale lords) and own plans for power for zero gain. Why should the Boltons feel any gratitude that he gave them a tall redhead and told them they can pretend this older and more recognizable Stark girl is actually the younger Stark girl (and by the way, if Cersei finds out you have her, you're going to look like traitors)? It makes no sense and having a random girl pretend to be Arya is by far more logical, less dangerous and less time-consuming than removing Sansa from her own plot and dragging her North so she can spend another season as a victim in a contradiction of the several little hints about her S5 story that have been made. A newcomer requires one scene of setup: "This girl isn't Arya, but we'll say she is because it'll make our claim look better."  The show has combined minor characters when it made sense and had no known future consequences (Gendry/Edric) and now it's starting to cut POVs because it feels their stories lead nowhere (Arianne/Quentyn), but Sansa is a main cast member who's been around since the first episode and ended last season with a display of cunning and a Sith Lord walk that might not really lead to the dark side but suggests that she's grown out of being a pawn.

[mac123x]

The show has combined minor characters when it made sense and had no known future consequences (Gendry/Edric) and now it's starting to cut POVs because it feels their stories lead nowhere (Arianne/Quentyn), but Sansa is a main cast member who's been around since the first episode and ended last season with a display of cunning and a Sith Lord walk that might not really lead to the dark side but suggests that she's grown out of being a pawn.

 

Wild and completely off the wall (no pun intended) speculation about who could be used as Fake Arya:  how about Meera?  It would combine two minor characters, as the show is prone to do, and would give Meera something plotty, since otherwise she's just hanging around in Bran's cave catching fish.  Theon doesn't know her already (like he does with Jayne Poole), but the audience does, so the audience already has sympathy for her.

 

Major problems with this: getting her back south of the Wall would be pretty contrived, and I have no idea if the actress is coming back for S5.

[Dev F]

Wild and completely off the wall (no pun intended) speculation about who could be used as Fake Arya:  how about Meera?  It would combine two minor characters, as the show is prone to do, and would give Meera something plotty, since otherwise she's just hanging around in Bran's cave catching fish.  Theon doesn't know her already (like he does with Jayne Poole), but the audience does, so the audience already has sympathy for her.

 

Hmm, interesting. It would definitely make sense from an "economy of characters" standpoint, and I like the character and would be grateful for her to have more to do. On the other hand, it'd be pretty icky to put such a character known for her strength and self-possession into a position of such horrifying victimization, and if you're going to have someone impersonate a nobleman's daughter to win the support of his bannermen, it wouldn't really make sense to do it by swapping in the daughter of one of those bannermen.

 

Also, it seems like if they were going to go that way, they missed the one semiplausible opportunity to move the pieces into place -- just have Locke fail to capture Bran but abscond with Meera instead.