Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[lawless]

I'm curious -- any theories as to what role Euron will play?  He seems to be very bad, has the blue lips of Pyat Pree and the Undying, and a dangerous horn.  Will he be Dany's primary opponent, if she comes to Westeros, because he knows something about controlling dragons?  Is he a red herring?  Moqorro seems to think he's a threat, but I don't know what Mogorro's end game is, though I have to assume follows of R'hllor would be entranced by fire breathing dragons.  Maybe Arya will be the one to kill him. 

[Hecate7]

Yeah, this is also why I don't buy the theory that Arya will be sent to kill Sansa. I mean, who would pay a Faceless Man to kill Sansa when there would be a lot cheaper options. Not to mention she knows her, which would also be against the rules and they wouldn't send Arya after her. And then who on earth would pay a FM to kill random Alayne Stone, Littlefinger's bastard niece?

Cersei, if she ever found out who Alayne Stone really was.

 

Lots of people once Alayne really starts to follow in her "father" or "uncle's" footsteps. Who would pay the Faceless men to kill the random, anonymous people Arya's been sent to kill so far? None of them seem important enough to rate hiring even an ordinary assassin, let alone a Faceless Man. Has it struck anyone else but me, that it's so expensive to hire the FM, and yet Arya's running around doing practice runs on the most random and obscure people?

 

I don't see Arya killing Jeyne Poole either, although I do think Jeyne is completely unrecognizable now, and only Theon, who's seen her recently, would recognize her after what she's been through. Especially now that her face has been frostbitten and will have to be stitched up and/or augmented with wax. And I certainly don't see her killing Sansa out of anger or because of a childhood grudge. What I could see, is if Sansa gets good at what Littlefinger does, rumors could begin to circulate that this mysterious brunette bastard is the real architect behind the fall of the Stark and Tully families, that she killed Robin, Lysa, and possibly had a hand, along with her uncle (who really IS the architect of the Starks' downfall), in the whole business starting all the way back with Ned Stark. THAT would get Arya off her butt and looking for this Alayne Stone, and it might even get her to poison some lemon cakes in a castle and shimmy back down the wall before thinking....wait, lemon cakes? Didn't I used to know a girl who ate those all the time?

 

Or put an arrow through her or cut her throat fast, and only later notice a slightly familiar look around the eyes and cheekbones.

 

I could also see someone like Cersei finding out Alayne's secret, and sending people after her through so levels of spies and underlings that by the time the spy on the bottom got her orders, she wouldn't even know who they came from. That's kind of how the FM do things--you don't know who hired you.

 

Arya really doesn't care what the FM allow. She isn't that big a stickler for the rules and never has been.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Hecate7

[KatWay]

I think the FM are less expensive when you hire them to go after people in Braavos - Westeros must be way more expensive, because there's a whole journey involved etc.

Cersei has no money now, does she? Plus she would probably rather send someone after Littlefinger than Alayne (who's, what 15? a big stretch to sell her as a criminal mastermind)? Arya has met all these people, they wouldn't send her.

 

Mainly I think the big tragedies for the Stark kids are over - their suffering from now on will only be consequences of the stuff they've already been through IMO. So I can't see GRRM setting up one of them to kill the other. I actually think all of the remaining kids are safe except maybe Bran, but even him I can see living, just as a tree.

[Holmbo]

It's stated in the book that the cost of hiring a faceless man depends on who the target is. I suppose a farmer for example would be quiet cheap while a king would be ridiculously expensive. This is probably based on how much effort that would be needed to put in to complete the task and perhaps it also goes back to their origin philosophy of people having to really, really want the death and be able to make a huge sacrifice for it. I suppose the prize might be adjusted depending who's hiring too.

I also wants to add that by reading the speculation about the ending for different characters and reflecting over this made me realize that my hopes about where different characters will end up is not really based at all on any sense of justice but just on what potential they have. Like with Jaime I feel like even right now, without any further character development, he would make an ok lord of Casterly Rock or commander of the Nights watch. It's not really about him deserving to be alive but just that he could be useful. The opposite to this is characters like Arya and Tyrion, who are my favorite pov's but who at the time of the latest book I feel are not fit for any sort of position of power. Other people that I feel have potential is Sansa and Jon.

 

The only ones I really root for based on that I just really feel like they deserve to survive and get a happy ending is Brienne, Bran, Sam and Gilly. And some of the very minor characters.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Holmbo

[Avaleigh]

I'm curious -- any theories as to what role Euron will play?  He seems to be very bad, has the blue lips of Pyat Pree and the Undying, and a dangerous horn.  Will he be Dany's primary opponent, if she comes to Westeros, because he knows something about controlling dragons?  Is he a red herring?  Moqorro seems to think he's a threat, but I don't know what Mogorro's end game is, though I have to assume follows of R'hllor would be entranced by fire breathing dragons.  Maybe Arya will be the one to kill him. 

 

Moqorro is half of the reason why I wish they wouldn't cut Victarion or Euron. I'm fine with changing the characters to make them less beastly but I really think it's a mistake to get rid of both characters only to make up some characters in order to fill their function. I understand that Dany already has her ships and I suppose there's another way that she could receive the horn, but Euron at least seems necessary in terms of having a Big Bad who isn't the Others or Ramsay. Also, somebody needs to cause the instability in the Reach that will lead to all sorts of conflict in KL. Why not have it be Euron? 

 

Regarding justice and certain characters surviving--I'm the same in that it isn't necessarily because I think it's right or fair that I want certain people like Jaime to live. The only character where I think I wouldn't be able to deal in terms of them not getting their comeuppance is Ramsay Bolton. That has to happen or I will be incredibly turned off. I haven't so viciously wanted a character to die since Joffrey was around and I think Ramsay is about ten times more hateful. 

 

It's stated in the book that the cost of hiring a faceless man depends on who the target is. I suppose a farmer for example would be quiet cheap while a king would be ridiculously expensive. This is probably based on how much effort that would be needed to put in to complete the task and perhaps it also goes back to their origin philosophy of people having to really, really want the death and be able to make a huge sacrifice for it.

 

 

I get the impression that pre-dragons/pre-being considered a queen that it would have been fairly easy to get to Dany yet still nobody tried. If Tywin couldn't afford a FM I have to wonder who would be able to. 

 

Arya really doesn't care what the FM allow. She isn't that big a stickler for the rules and never has been.

 

 

Yeah if Arya ends up targeting someone in her family for some reason, I don't think it will be under the direction of the FM. I fully expect her to abandon them and go rogue so that she can do her own thing. As to whether or not they'll put a target on her back for doing this--I'm on the fence about this but am inclined to think that she'll get out of it some how. I honestly can't see GRRM having the nerve to kill her. JMO. 

[benteen]

Arya will do what Arya will do.  No question.  But I'm just wondering if the FM will go after her.  I would add that it would hypocritical for Arya to break any kind of oath she swore (which she hasn't) when she killed Dareon for breaking his oath to the Night's Watch.

[Hecate7]

Yeah if Arya ends up targeting someone in her family for some reason, I don't think it will be under the direction of the FM.

 

How would the FM know that Alayne Stone is related to Arya? Do they have photos of Sansa pre-Alayne? Do they have someone in Littlefinger's house? Or are they not, like everyone else in their world, dependent on eyewitness accounts and second-hand observations?

 

And this doubles my conviction that Arya WILL be sent after her, because she will think, as you do, that her target couldn't possibly be someone she knows, because the FM wouldn't send her to do in someone she knows, and so "work blindness" would definitely be a factor. Just as people walked past their families dressed as homeless people, and Model 21 just looked like another model to her sister, Alayne Stone will mean nothing to Arya or the Faceless Men.

 

I think Euron is in the story mainly as a red herring, as he has many, many things in common with other principle characters and could be read as the subject of various prophecies that are really about other people.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

How did the FM immediately know that the girl who found her way to them was Arya Stark? Even though she claimed to be somebody else the KM already knew who she was. The FM just seem to have ways of knowing stuff like this.

As to how FM know what they know, I get the impression that they have quite a long reach based on what the info we've been given so far, so to me it isn't at all out of the realm of possibilities that they would know or become aware of where Sansa is hiding. They're all about identity and claim they can reach any target. They train their people to pick up on subtle clues that the average person would overlook. If for some reason the FM did target Alayne--I imagine that Arya would first spend time around her while looking for the best way to kill her. If she were to observe Petyr and Alayne together and they aren't acting like father and daughter IMO that would be a huge red flag and the pieces would fall together from there. Even so I still don't believe that it would take more than two minutes for Arya to see through the disguise since she'd be looking for some kind of angle to use if Alayne were to be her target.

While I can't see Arya being fooled by the disguise, I can maybe seeArya doubting herself and thinking that the girl looks like Sansa but couldn't possibly be. OTOH even that feels like a stretch because Littlefinger's presence would immediately make the blocks fall in to place as far as her real identity.

Slightly OT but I did lol when I realized that Littlefinger was the one to break it down for the small council just how expensive a FM is. Like Tyrion, he so considered hiring one at one point only to quickly see it would be out of his league.

ETA

Lol, I so want to know which merchant Littlefinger wanted to have knocked off.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Skeeter22]

Sending a FM after Alayne Stone, or even Sansa Stark, seems like overkill to me. She'd be a pretty easy target. There's really no reason to hire a prohibitively expensive assassin when just about anyone could get the job done for less. I can't imagine Cersei sending a FM when she's already got people out there looking for Sansa. She'd be more likely to send a FM after Tyrion if she hears he's joined Dany's camp, but even that seems unlikely.

[Eozostrodon]

I have actually seen people not recognize their own sisters, in real life. One was a game show contestant, and the other was a hostess working at a restaurant. On the game show, it took the contestant, (whose mind was on winning the game show and NOT on the sister she'd seen that very afternoon) a full 5 minutes to recognize her own sister, and that was with the Emcee saying, "do you notice anything about Model 21?" She didn't. Even when invited to look closer, look closer, look closer, she still didn't connect "model 21" with her own sister, with whom she'd just had lunch and dinner.

 

The other case I know of, was of a woman at work at her restaurant job. Her sister walked in, and she seated her like any other customer. They talked for about 5 minutes, joking about this and that, and it completely failed to occur to the hostess that the woman she was waiting on was her sister.

The examples you've given of people not recognising immediate family just because they were in a different context are very rare though, and they're linked to known neurological phenonena. I studied it when I was doing my neurology section. I mean, if the average person was waiting tables and their immediate family walked in, they aren't going to spend five minutes chatting with them without realising who they are simply because they're unusued to seeing their family in that restaurant. Most people in that situation would recognise their family instantly. That's unusual and the server quite possibly had a neurological issue. Also not recognising relatives posing as homeless people is due to intentionally ignoring homeless people and choosing not to look at them, which would not be the case with Arya (as she's trained to notice everyone) and especially not with someone she'd been sent to kill. Though the chance of someone wanting to kill LF's random niece and having the funds to hire a FM seem small.

 

Besides weird things happen in real life that simply wouldn't be included in a TV show without explanation because it would come across as stupid or illogical. Arya not recognising her own sister without some explanation just wouldn't make sense to a TV audience, no matter how much you can fanwank it as "well in real life sometimes people wake up and just spontaneously don't recognise their own family members." How many TV viewers are even aware of that phenomena? Of all people Arya with her training definitely would see past hair dye and a slight increase in age. If the writers wanted Arya to meet/see Sansa and not recognise her I'm sure they'd create some plausible reason.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Eozostrodon

[Oscirus]

I don't think on the show that Arya's in a bad place mentally. I just think that she's really lonely. She goes to FM training because there's nothing else out there for her. There hasn't been anything on the show that's shown that Arya doesn't still love her family.

 

What money is Cersei going to use to hire a FM? She has no master of coin and even if she did, I doubt the iron bank would give the money to her. Casterly Rock is barren, and I can't see her going to the Tyrells. Especially after the stuff that she pulls on Margaery next season.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Oscirus

[Hecate7]

The examples you've given of people not recognising immediate family just because they were in a different context are very rare though, and they're linked to known neurological phenonena. I studied it when I was doing my neurology section. I mean, if the average person was waiting tables and their immediate family walked in, they aren't going to spend five minutes chatting with them without realising who they are simply because they're unusued to seeing their family in that restaurant. Most people in that situation would recognise their family instantly. That's unusual and the server quite possibly had a neurological issue. Also not recognising relatives posing as homeless people is due to intentionally ignoring homeless people and choosing not to look at them, which would not be the case with Arya (as she's trained to notice everyone) and especially not with someone she'd been sent to kill. Though the chance of someone wanting to kill LF's random niece and having the funds to hire a FM seem small.

 

I think the girl on the game show was all over the Internet, and she did not have a neurological issue at all.

She doesn't look like the sharpest knife in the drawer, but that's no reason not to recognize your own sister.  Two to ten years of separation, a name-change, and a disguise might be considered a better excuse.

 

I'm just saying....in Lauren's place, Arya could have gotten in and out, leaving 21 dead. Let's not forget all the time 21 was standing there, before the guessing game even began.

But if it does come up I'm sure it'll make sense at the time, and that GRRM and/or D&D will have perfectly good reasons why Arya didn't realize who it was--if it's meant to be.

 

These two cases I'm talking about are NOT cases of someone "waking up and not knowing family members." They had no problem recognizing anyone else that day, or any other day. This isn't at all about any sort of neurological condition. This is about the invisible gorilla.

 

As for the hostess, I know for a fact she was 23, in perfect health, and had no neurological issues whatsoever. Still doesn't. It really was just a case of not expecting to see the sister. The entire family didn't walk in, just the sister, dining alone. It was the context. And as I said, you'd think that a sari-wearing dot-marked caucasian would be recognized notwithstanding, but no, the setting dictated the parameters of the hostess's perception. The sister finally realizing she wasn't recognized, and calling out the hostess,

 

Now, had the sister walked in with the entire family, sure, she'd have been recognized. That would be enough to re-adjust perceptions. But I'm not talking about Arya failing to recognize the entire Stark clan, just one disguised member. And I'm not talking about failing to recognize Sansa at King's Landing or Winterfell or at the Wall, all reasonable places for Sansa to "live" in Arya's mind. On the road, in a tavern, at the Hardyng's castle, or in a castle owned by the Smallwoods....she might not know Sansa.

 

The girl at the game show had no trouble recognizing her mother or the host or anyone or anything else, before or after that moment on the game show when "Model 21" couldn't be anything to her except "Model 21." And as I pointed out, Model 21 looked a whole lot more like herself, than Sansa does right now. The game show contestant had no disabilities.

 

The man who didn't recognize his wife looked right at her and kept walking.

 

As for who would hire FM to do in Littlefinger's illegitimate daughter, who hires Faceless Men to do in some old guy who sells insurance? Who was he, and why did someone want him dead? And how do we know he wasn't the Blackfish? Arya never met him and wouldn't know him if she fell over him.

 

She has killed or taken part in the deaths of 14 people, including the insurance salesman. Only 2 of those people were on her list. I think Arya doesn't really care who she kills, as long as she kills someone.

 

I don't think Lady Stoneheart would wake up Arya, because she looks nothing like Catelyn Stark, and if someone were to say to Arya, "they say Lady Stoneheart used to be Catelyn Stark," unless there were verification of some kind, such as a bit of jewelry or birthmark or something to prove it, Arya's most likely reaction, (and the reaction of most sane people, really,) would be, "they are so full of it." Even if she saw the zombie with her own eyes, she'd have no reason to believe the story.

 

But if she killed Sansa, and found out about it later, that's a reason to slow down and start actually looking at who you're killing. Right now Arya's being trained to do the opposite--not to look, not to think, just kill them, don't think about whether they deserve it or not, don't think about them, just do it and get out. I know we think she'd never be assigned to kill "someone she knows," but exactly how on earth do the FM know who she's met, and who she hasn't? Do they know that Alayne is Sansa? Do they know the real identity of every disguised person in Westeros? Do they know that Arristan is Barristan Selmy? If so, how?

 

As for who would want Alayne Stone dead:

 

1) Cersei Lannister, if she found out Alayne was Sansa. She believes Sansa got away with murdering Joffrey, and might still be helping Tyrion. She would probably pay any price to kill Sansa or Tyrion.

 

2) Any enemy of Littlefinger's wanting revenge, who heard that he absolutely relies on his daughter and loves her as much as he is probably capable of loving anyone.

 

3) Any Bolton, Frey, or Karstark who finds out her real identity.

 

4) Anyone who is trying to kill a hard-to-kill or elusive, frequently disguised blue-eyed girl Sansa's age, and thinks Alayne Stone might be their target in disguise.

 

5) Littlefinger's REAL bastard daughter, angry that he doesn't know she exists but is treating this other daughter like she walks on water.

 

6) Any relatives or lovers of people Alayne obediently and obligingly kills for her "Father" during her term of service to him.

 

7) Littlefinger himself, once he has gotten whatever he's using Sansa for, might have Sansa killed in order to destroy the one witness to all of his crimes. In order to insure that he himself looks innocent, he might get a FM to kill her while he himself addresses a large crowd or have them kill her in front of him while he pretends to fight to save her or acts horrified and shocked.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

 

While I can't see Arya being fooled by the disguise, I can maybe seeArya doubting herself and thinking that the girl looks like Sansa but couldn't possibly be. OTOH even that feels like a stretch because Littlefinger's presence would immediately make the blocks fall in to place as far as her real identity.

 

Did Arya meet Littlefinger in King's Landing? Did she see him spending time with Sansa? I don't think she was at the joust, (which is weird), and I don't think she was privy to any of Ned & Cat's discussions of Littlefinger.

 

On the show, she knows what he looks like because she saw him for a second at Harrenhal, but I don't think that happened in the books. Arya and Littlefinger have never met, nor does she have any reason to expect Sansa to be hanging out with him, least of all for her to be his daughter.

 

Baelish didn't recognize Arya at Harrenhal, which leads me to believe that they do not in fact know one another at all. Even if they did, seeing a girl in his company would not cause Arya to reflect that it must be Sansa despite the disguise and the name and the fact that Baelish seems pretty sure this is his daughter.

[benteen]

I don't think on the show that Arya's in a bad place mentally. I just think that she's really lonely. She goes to FM training because there's nothing else out there for her. There hasn't been anything on the show that's shown that Arya doesn't still love her family.

 

What money is Cersei going to use to hire a FM? She has no master of coin and even if she did, I doubt the iron bank would give the money to her. Casterly Rock is barren, and I can't see her going to the Tyrells. Especially after the stuff that she pulls on Margaery next season.

 

She had killed a lot of people in the books prior to departing Westeros.  She's killed less but I think she has grown darker over the past season or two.  You're right, I don't think anything's been shown to suggest she doesn't love her family.

 

As for Cersei, she'll find some way to get that money to hire a Faceless Man no matter how badly that hurts her son's rule.  She is the kind of leader who will wipe out her entire army just to win a pointless battle.

[Eozostrodon]

It's possible to experience a temporary neurological 'glitch' without being aware of it. I wasn't referring to the two women having a medical condition. Anyway it's still pretty rare - there are tens of thousands of videos online of people being surprised by loved ones/family members (often ones who they've been parted from for years, sometimes in disguise) in all kinds of contexts they've never seen that person in before, and recognising them instantly, e.g. the 'scuba soldier'. That is the norm - not those two cases. I can't imagine the writers are going to have Arya not recognise her sister (who to the audience still looks exactly like she always has, only with dark hair) without explicitly creating a reason, because the 99.9% of the audience who aren't aware of this phenomena are just going to think it's ludicrous and a plot hole.

 

And honestly, of all the people who would hire a FM to kill Sansa (as opposed to killing her themselves, sending one of their own people, or hiring a regular assassin), Cersei is the only one that is logical and she's in debt and facing bigger problems. I mean - a hypothetical (up till now unmentioned) bastard daughter who is so wealthy she can afford things even Tywin Lannister balked at, deciding to hire an assassin to go after her own father's home just because she's jealous of him having another bastard daughter? Sansa becoming an assassin herself, killing someone and getting away with it despite the person's loved ones knowing she did it, and that person having a loved one who is super wealthy yet has no way other than hiring a FM to bring down a murderous bastard child? I'm sorry but those just don't seem at all plausible to me.

 

I believe Arya with her training in seeing the truth of things would possibly be able to recognise Lady Stoneheart as her mother, depending on the situation and circumstances, but I wouldn't consider it a plothole or unusual if she didn't.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Eozostrodon

[Hecate7]

I find the whole FM thing difficult to believe, anyway, when you consider that there is no one who could afford to hire them, and no one important enough to be one of their victims, yet they appear to be a gigantic, supremely well-funded organization. Who hires them at all? And who are these people they're being hired to kill? What funds their operation? I think the FM are becoming a bit of a plot hole in their own right, actually. How many of them are there? How many levels are there? How do they really earn a living, since someone rich enough to hire them probably only comes along once every decade or so? If that often.

 

How plausible is it that there is someone somewhere rich enough to hire a FM to bump off some obscure insurance salesman, who couldn't dispose of the old man in some more sensible way?

 

How plausible is it that Jaqen H'gar is this incredibly skilled, almost invincible assassin, yet he was arrested and had to be saved by a ten-year-old? And then he turns around and pulls off three free assassinations. There is a poetic logic to the whole thing, but not much actual practical logic at all.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

 

I can't imagine the writers are going to have Arya not recognise her sister (who to the audience still looks exactly like she always has, only with dark hair)

 

Arya was used to Sansa looking like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TqSvmaRboxU/T4TJrFbzp3I/AAAAAAAABUI/AhlFX7Mx7pE/s1600/starks2.jpg

 

I'm not sure she'd recognize this: http://images.buddytv.com/btv_2_600075945_1_590_-1_0_/from-stark-to-dark--.jpg

Which I think is foreshadowed by the fact that we couldn't see Sansa at first, at all, after her transformation. https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlwGTwVwg3nRcvPkNGmraGos4i9L5zHQXg6cNeP9SxItEGYdGC.

 

The light made her very hard to see at first. I think that foreshadows something.

[KatWay]

I stand by my belief that none of the rest of the Stark kids will die. "A time for wolves", indeed. I kind of hope Arya will get one big kill, one big enemy at some point, but even that I'm not sure about. I think she will get to Westeros after leaving the FM, not as part of a mission. IMO it would feel much bigger if it's a conscious choice - she left Westeros because there was nothing for her there, she should go back because she decides there's a future for her there after all.

 

Show!Arya clearly recognised Littlefinger immediately and tried to hide from him/draw as little attention as possible to her so she clearly believed him recognising her was an option. And Show!Sansa looks exactly like Sansa, only a bit older and with dark hair. Arya having been trained to notice any little detail about her possible kills etc. makes me think it would be quite a stretch to sell her waltzing in there, randomly killing Alayne and only afterwards going, oh wait, she sure looks a lot like Sansa.

 

But I do agree that a lot of the FM stuff doesn't make a lot of sense. The fact that nobody tried to hire them to take out Dany before she got the dragons makes no sense, would have been way cheaper presumably than trying it afterwards. And if an attempt fails, do they just give you the money back or try again?

Then again all the training kills are in Braavos, so I figure that it's just vastly more expensive to get them over to Westeros (more effort/time). 

 

I actually think they are only a plot device to get Arya trained with some relatively believable skills - ninja training makes more sense for a little girl who couldn't plausibly beat grown men in a sword fight unless she had the element of surprise. As soon as she leaves, they'll probably be pretty much irrelevant.

[Hecate7]

I don't think they will be irrelevant, reason being, they were in the castle before the purge.

 

Jaqen H'gar was taken along with Rorge and Biter, and so must have been at Winterfell. So whatever the story of the FM involvement is, it begins there. Someone had to have sent for him. Who? And who was his intended victim? Did he achieve his goal? Or fail resoundingly? I think as the story winds down, we will eventually discover what was going on there.

 

I don't think it was about getting Arya into the Faceless Men. You have to have a clientele and a demand for your service, before you really need new recruits. But I do think there's something fishy happening there, that Arya steps right into the middle of.

 

I suspect Littlefinger was leading the Small Council astray---if they're too expensive for a King to hire, then there's not much point in them.

[Holmbo]

How plausible is it that there is someone somewhere rich enough to hire a FM to bump off some obscure insurance salesman, who couldn't dispose of the old man in some more sensible way?

 

Again. The price depends on the target. So an insurance salesmen would probably not be too expensive.

I don't remember if they said anything in the book about how expensive it would be to kill Dany. I could see them charging extra for her just cause she's of noble birth. Or because she's the queen of a super vicious warrior tribe.

I don't think the FM buisness model becomes a plot hole for the reason that they're a religious organisation. They don't run their organization with the purpose of making the most profit. All it has to do is break even which I think it plausibly could do. They get a lot of donations it seems and people all over Bravos probably hire them for everyday assassinations.

[Avaleigh]

On the show Arya and Littlefinger had a conversation during the tourney in season one. She asks about why he's called Littlefinger and he explains about the Fingers.

Littlefinger says that it would be cheaper to buy an army of sellswords to kill a (presumably reasonably well protected) merchant than it would be to hire a FM. He can't even estimate what the figure for a princess would be but the implication is that it would be some astronomical sum.

I agree that it doesn't make sense that kings and people like Tywin are seemingly unable to afford FM. I can understand them being incredibly expensive but not to the point where maybe two or three people on the entire continent of Westeros would be able to afford them. If they aren't making regular income from important Balon Greyjoy type kills would the small sacrifices of the poor be enough to fund the organization? And what if a poor person wanted to have someone like Joffrey or Dany killed and were willing to give up their own lives would that be enough to make it happen? If not doesn't that kind of contradict the FM backstory that the KM has been giving Arya?

I wonder about this because there are so many rulers who have helped to ruin the lives of the smallfolk it seems like eventually you'd have some who'd be willing to go that route even if it meant giving up their lives. I'm thinking about people Dany has pissed off for example.

All this FM talk makes me wonder if the Sorrowful Men will ever come back into play with anyone. For awhile I considered the idea that Euron might send one after Victarion but now I'm inclined to think that Ole Vic'll be dragon food early on in TWoW.

Agreed that it seems unlikely that any more Starks will die. Maybe Benjen. ;-)

[charis]

Kings and people like Tywin may be able to afford the Faceless Men, but also bear in mind just how deeply the crown was in debt at the time they discussed hiring one to kill Dany.  Add to that the part where at least one party in the discussion had a vested interest in not sending a competent assassin after her ... and it's not unreasonable to think something may have been misrepresented there.  If Tywin didn't consider her a threat (just a girl, across the water, etc.) I can see him refusing to pony up the money even if he could afford it.  But in general, the Faceless Men seem to have some sort of weird cost-balance going in terms of kills -- some invisible rubric based on what you can afford and who you want killed.  I can see it being more expensive for someone who has more wealth, and that the price is heavily based on how badly you want it (as defined by how much you're willing to give up).

[Ailianna]

 

Jaqen H'gar was taken along with Rorge and Biter, and so must have been at Winterfell. So whatever the story of the FM involvement is, it begins there.

 

You mean the Red Keep, don't you? All three were prisoners in the Red Keep that Ned was sending to the Night's Watch.  None of them had any association with Winterfell at that point in the story.  And no Faceless Man connection to Winterfell.

[Hecate7]

I do in fact mean the Red Keep, thanks, Ailianna!

 

No FM connection to Winterfell. I meant the Red Keep--who was responsible for bringing Jaqen H'gar to the Red Keep? What was he there to do? Did he do it, or did he fail?

 

If the insurance guy was inexpensive, then I should imagine Alayne Stone would be dirt cheap.

[lawless]

Littlefinger says that it would be cheaper to buy an army of sellswords to kill a (presumably reasonably well protected) merchant than it would be to hire a FM. He can't even estimate what the figure for a princess would be but the implication is that it would be some astronomical sum.

Maybe if you know to say "Valar Morgulis," you get a discount.  If you're a Westerosi who worships the Seven -- huge markup.

[mac123x]

Again. The price depends on the target. So an insurance salesmen would probably not be too expensive.

I don't remember if they said anything in the book about how expensive it would be to kill Dany. I could see them charging extra for her just cause she's of noble birth. Or because she's the queen of a super vicious warrior tribe.

I don't think the FM buisness model becomes a plot hole for the reason that they're a religious organisation. They don't run their organization with the purpose of making the most profit. All it has to do is break even which I think it plausibly could do. They get a lot of donations it seems and people all over Bravos probably hire them for everyday assassinations.

 

Kings and people like Tywin may be able to afford the Faceless Men, but also bear in mind just how deeply the crown was in debt at the time they discussed hiring one to kill Dany.  Add to that the part where at least one party in the discussion had a vested interest in not sending a competent assassin after her ... and it's not unreasonable to think something may have been misrepresented there.  If Tywin didn't consider her a threat (just a girl, across the water, etc.) I can see him refusing to pony up the money even if he could afford it.  But in general, the Faceless Men seem to have some sort of weird cost-balance going in terms of kills -- some invisible rubric based on what you can afford and who you want killed.  I can see it being more expensive for someone who has more wealth, and that the price is heavily based on how badly you want it (as defined by how much you're willing to give up).

 

Emphasis added.

 

I think that nails it:  they are a religion so their price structure also includes an element of sacrifice on the part of the person hiring them.  From the description of the Waif at the Ice & Fire Wiki:

 

Her stepmother then wanted the waif to die, so her daughter would inherit the waif's father's wealth. The stepmother approached the Many-Faced God, but could not bear the sacrifice he asked of her. She then tried to poison the waif. She did not succeed. When the healer in the House of the Red Hands told the waif's father what the stepmother had done, her father offered a sacrifice of two thirds of his wealth and the waif to the Many-Faced God for his wife to receive the gift of the god (death). His prayer was answered and the waif came to the House of Black and White to serve.

 

The MFG asked for a sacrifice, which probably entailed more than just money, and the step-mother balked.  The price the FM subsequently asked the father included losing his daughter to the service of the FM;  They may have asked something similar of the step-mother.

 

I think price includes an element of pain for the purchaser.  The Waif's father lost 2/3 of his wealth and his heir.  They might require something similar from Robert to go after Dany, or from Cercei to go after Tyrion.  "Yes, we'll kill your brother, but it will cost 1 million gold dragons, and your daughter."  It just dawned on me that the Faceless Men are like Rumplestilskin.

 

I also wonder what price Euron paid, assuming the Ghost of High Heart's "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings." means Euron hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon.  I've seen it suggested that he gave them his dragon egg; maybe he believed his sorcerers could hatch it, so the price of Euron's death included giving up that possibility.

[Hecate7]

And who among us would have imagined that he'd hire a FM to do in his wife, when he could have just poisoned her himself? Especially since his whole reason for killing her was her unsuccessful attempt to kill the very daughter whose life was included in his payment!

 

I wonder what the FM will do with Euron's dragon egg.....

[ElizaD]

Sophie Turner:

 

"I kind of read the 'Game of Thrones' books as the seasons [went on]," Turner says, "But now that the storyline and scripts are kind of going away from the books I decided I'm just going to read the scripts so I don't get confused and read the books later."

 

"'Game of Thrones' is so unpredictable and it was a big surprise what is happening to her this season," Turner says. "I am so excited because it gives me the opportunity to work with new people and it goes in a completely different direction. I think the fans will really like where her storyline is going this season."

 

Sophie knows how to hype. I remember I was so excited before S3 and then disappointed by Sansa's role as a prop in Lannister/Tyrell scenes. But in S4, Show Sansa did finally have her moment of standing up for herself once she got away from KL. The mention of "new people" could be the same as her earlier "familiar faces" (for example, Sansa never said a word to Brienne on TV so in that sense Gwendoline Christie would be a new person to work with) and not necessarily a reference to new characters, but maybe someone sorta-major will get cast for Sansa's story as quietly as Bowen Marsh was cast. Now I'm letting myself hope this supports the theory that Sansa will get to important TWOW content in S5.

Edited August 23, 2014 by ElizaD

[benteen]

Sophie Turner:

 

 

Sophie knows how to hype. I remember I was so excited before S3 and then disappointed by Sansa's role as a prop in Lannister/Tyrell scenes. But in S4, Show Sansa did finally have her moment of standing up for herself once she got away from KL. The mention of "new people" could be the same as her earlier "familiar faces" (for example, Sansa never said a word to Brienne on TV so in that sense Gwendoline Christie would be a new person to work with) and not necessarily a reference to new characters, but maybe someone sorta-major will get cast for Sansa's story as quietly as Bowen Marsh was cast. Now I'm letting myself hope this supports the theory that Sansa will get to important TWOW content in S5.

 

Why bother casting Bowen Marsh at this point?  He's a character that should have been established a lot sooner if he's to be the one to betray Jon.  I would just use Marsh as a background character to Ser Alliser at this point.  They're already introduced the Chief Builder and he can be his lackey too.

[Holmbo]

Sophie knows how to hype. I remember I was so excited before S3 and then disappointed by Sansa's role as a prop in Lannister/Tyrell scenes. But in S4, Show Sansa did finally have her moment of standing up for herself once she got away from KL. The mention of "new people" could be the same as her earlier "familiar faces" (for example, Sansa never said a word to Brienne on TV so in that sense Gwendoline Christie would be a new person to work with) and not necessarily a reference to new characters, but maybe someone sorta-major will get cast for Sansa's story as quietly as Bowen Marsh was cast. Now I'm letting myself hope this supports the theory that Sansa will get to important TWOW content in S5.

She sure does :)

I'm very curious about these "familiar faces". First I assumed it was faces familiar to Sansa but I really can't think of any possible people she's met in the show that could turn up. Possibly the hound?

But if it's just familiar faces to the show I could think of Blackfish, Brienne and Pod. Who else?

I'd be fine even if next season was mostly character development of Sansa. For so long her goals and dreams was just to get out of Kingslanding. Now that's she's away from there what does she want? It would be exciting to get some new plot development though.

[ElizaD]

Why bother casting Bowen Marsh at this point?  He's a character that should have been established a lot sooner if he's to be the one to betray Jon.  I would just use Marsh as a background character to Ser Alliser at this point.  They're already introduced the Chief Builder and he can be his lackey too.

 

On TV, a Thorne/Marsh character combination would work; Show Thorne is more of a worthy antagonist than Book Thorne. But now that they have cast someone named Marsh, it is going to feel odd if he's not one of the assassins. I guess he could just be another candidate in the election plot who disappears from the show after losing while Thorne gets his book plot, but then a Locke/Talisa style renaming would be appropriate.

 

First I assumed it was faces familiar to Sansa but I really can't think of any possible people she's met in the show that could turn up. Possibly the hound?

But if it's just familiar faces to the show I could think of Blackfish, Brienne and Pod. Who else?

 

There's Gendry, but with no Brotherhood what plot function would he serve? I haven't read anything about Edmure returning and don't know what the actor's current role on Outlander implies about his availability. Maybe some mix of Stoneheart/Brienne and Sansa's TWOW content would allow her to take the Vale army to Riverrun and meet Walder Frey.

[Winnief]

 

There's Gendry, but with no Brotherhood what plot function would he serve? I haven't read anything about Edmure returning and don't know what the actor's current role on Outlander implies about his availability. Maybe some mix of Stoneheart/Brienne and Sansa's TWOW content would allow her to take the Vale army to Riverrun and meet Walder Frey.

 

I don't know about Stoneheart, but I do think a Blackfish/Sansa meeting is destined to take place.

[Holmbo]

There's Gendry, but with no Brotherhood what plot function would he serve? I haven't read anything about Edmure returning and don't know what the actor's current role on Outlander implies about his availability. Maybe some mix of Stoneheart/Brienne and Sansa's TWOW content would allow her to take the Vale army to Riverrun and meet Walder Frey.

I didn't even think of the possibility of Sansa leaving the Vale. Though I can't see her leaving voluntarily and I don't see why LF would want to send her away or letting anyone take her. Perhaps the mountain clans gets into the Vale and kidnaps her. Do they count as familiar faces? ;)

I did consider Gendry as someone who could turn up but I just don't see any possible reason for him to go to the Vale, or for them to let him in.

[benteen]

On TV, a Thorne/Marsh character combination would work; Show Thorne is more of a worthy antagonist than Book Thorne. But now that they have cast someone named Marsh, it is going to feel odd if he's not one of the assassins. I guess he could just be another candidate in the election plot who disappears from the show after losing while Thorne gets his book plot, but then a Locke/Talisa style renaming would be appropriate.

 

 

There's Gendry, but with no Brotherhood what plot function would he serve? I haven't read anything about Edmure returning and don't know what the actor's current role on Outlander implies about his availability. Maybe some mix of Stoneheart/Brienne and Sansa's TWOW content would allow her to take the Vale army to Riverrun and meet Walder Frey.

 

Oh yeah, the Edmure actor has a major role on Outlander so the likelihood of him returning to Game of Thrones in what was a thankless role is unlikely.  The possibility of Lady Stoneheart appearing seems increasingly slimmer and we've barely seen Blackfish although character can return after many years (Owen Teale as Thorne).  If Stoneheart's not going to be around, Blackfish seems the likely guy to lead a more brutal Brotherhood.  Accept the TV Brotherhood are total religious fanatics first and I don't see Blackfish embracing that even for revenge.

 

Gendry I think will return but where?  The popular theory was that he would meet up with Brienne and Pod and then meet up with the Brotherhood.  But I don't expect to see them pop up either.  Though he might be let into the Vale if Littlefinger realized he was King Robert's bastard, who is actually of Robert's blood and not Tommen or Myrcella.  Maybe he would use that for a marriage with Sansa.  Then Arya would likely flip her shit!

Edited August 24, 2014 by benteen

[Hecate7]

What would be the point of marrying anyone to Gendry? He is a bastard. He cannot inherit until all the "legitimate" Baratheons are exposed or dead, and he would need some sort of proof of who he is. I'm sure Littlefinger knows exactly who Gendry is--he made it his business to know all that stuff, when working in King's Landing. He hasn't found it useful yet, except as a terrific way of killing Ned Stark.

[benteen]

I'm just saying, Littlefinger is capable of plotting anything.  Especially on this show when they've changed so much.

[ElizaD]

interview. He mentions seeing characters die in season 5. The "big funeral scene" must be Tywin. Loras gets a fight scene he hasn't filmed yet; maybe he attacks the men who arrest Margaery.

 

Dinklage and Glen filming.

 

Oh yeah, the Edmure actor has a major role on Outlander so the likelihood of him returning to Game of Thrones in what was a thankless role is unlikely.

 

I just read that he hasn't been asked back this season (I'm guessing he revealed that while promoting Outlander). Not a surprise, but it's still a shame that the RW has been forgotten and no one in the Riverlands is making the Freys pay for it.

[benteen]

interview. He mentions seeing characters die in season 5. The "big funeral scene" must be Tywin. Loras gets a fight scene he hasn't filmed yet; maybe he attacks the men who arrest Margaery.

 

Dinklage and Glen filming.

 

 

I just read that he hasn't been asked back this season (I'm guessing he revealed that while promoting Outlander). Not a surprise, but it's still a shame that the RW has been forgotten and no one in the Riverlands is making the Freys pay for it.

 

Jorah is still wearing the same clothes I see.

 

It frustrates me how they've continued to ignore the Riverlands.  They get the big stuff and then completely forget about it (Season 2 and 4) or change things to fit the story.

[Winnief]

Well we know Jaime is going to the Riverlands sometime next season, so I'm hoping we'll see some RW fallout then.  We know from Arya and the Hound's dinner with the poor farmer the Hound robbed, that House Frey have been terrible liege lords and are not accepted.  I figure that while they'll cut a lot of AFFC, (good riddance,) they will keep the fact that Jaime is openly contemptuous of the Frey's and disgusted that House Lannister has been reduced to an alliance with them, since it is central to Jaime's growing disillusionment not just with Cersei but to the Lannister cause in general.  He'd been forced to conclude if only subconsciously that he had more respect and sympathy for Robb and his forces, then he did for Tywin and the shady deals he used with the weaselly Frey's and outright evil Boltons to quash the Rebellion.  (Doesn't help that Jaime at least knew first hand that the Rebels were in the right and what really kicked off the whole war in the first place.) 

 

Also depending on what Sansa's gonna be up to in the Vale, (and if she does meet Blackfish like I predict she will,) that could very well tie in with the Riverlands and the Frey's as well-maybe she gets the Vale armies to march North by way of the Twins after slaying the Titan/Mockingbird of course...  Be deliciously ironic if the ultimate force for Stark vengeance, (for enemies who matter) wasn't Robb the military prodigy or even Arya the bad-ass tiny assassin in training but the girly girl of the family who everyone dismisses as an airhead and a 'little dove.'

 

I also suspect one of the unexpected deaths to come will be Baelish.  And I wouldn't be shocked if Cersei and/or Margaery's trial took place at the end of next season and if fallout from that was one of the reasons Finn Jones was so shocked by the season finale.  Or possibly the death of poor Shireen and/or Stannis.

 

One thing's for sure-D&D ain't waiting on Martin, and next season is going to seriously start spoiling the books.  We will all be Unsullied together.

[Holmbo]

Well we know Jaime is going to the Riverlands sometime next season, so I'm hoping we'll see some RW fallout then.  We know from Arya and the Hound's dinner with the poor farmer the Hound robbed, that House Frey have been terrible liege lords and are not accepted.  I figure that while they'll cut a lot of AFFC, (good riddance,) they will keep the fact that Jaime is openly contemptuous of the Frey's and disgusted that House Lannister has been reduced to an alliance with them, since it is central to Jaime's growing disillusionment not just with Cersei but to the Lannister cause in general.  He'd been forced to conclude if only subconsciously that he had more respect and sympathy for Robb and his forces, then he did for Tywin and the shady deals he used with the weaselly Frey's and outright evil Boltons to quash the Rebellion.  (Doesn't help that Jaime at least knew first hand that the Rebels were in the right and what really kicked off the whole war in the first place.) 

 

Do we know for certain he'll be there? We know he'll be in Dorne for at least part of the season.

It's very surprising to me that we haven't gotten anything that points to story lines in the Riverlands this season. It seems that if they want something to happen there as a reaction to the RW it should start this season. Sure in the books nothing has actually happened but it does seem to me that it will. Just like in north it seems like crazy plots are being made to fuck over the Boltons. And it seems to me that if the show wants to have those plots happening they should start this season. Otherwise it's too long since the RW and viewers wont care as much.

[Holmbo]

I suppose this season will have enough locations without getting into the Riverlands though.
Kingslanding, Bravos, Mereen, The wall, The Vale, Dorne. Possibly Pentos for a little while depending on how Tyrion's story goes.
I do hope they'll at least mention what's going on in the Riverlands in one of the stories. And that someone at some point takes down the Freys. I wonder though if they somehow plan to combine Frey and Bolton comeuppance. Like maybe a lot of Frey's comes to the Bolton-Stark wedding in Winterfell and end up being killed somehow. I do hope that the BWB has some part to play still though.

[Winnief]

D&D specifically said they were using the teleporter next season to get Jaime from Dorne to the Riverlands so yeah they will feature that. 

[Advance35]

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-pics-maisie-williams-mark-gatiss-game-thrones-filming/#more-2616

 

So it looks like House Tyrell will have a stronger connection to the Iron Bank plot.    I assume, as opposed to sending Mace to Storms End to squash the remains of rebellion she'll maneuver Mace Tyrell into going across the sea's to settle or make arrangements for repayment of the Iron Bank and this leaves only Loras and Margaery in Kings Landing as power players Cersei will have to contend with.

 

Could be very interesting, I'm super curious to see how they develop this.

[benteen]

That works for me, especially given how they've portrayed Mace Tyrell and the fact that they've ignored Storm's End.  I also noticed Ser Meryn Trant.  Looks like he will be taking Raff the Sweetling's place in the Mercy chapter GRRM released a few months ago.  Having him in Braavos is a good tie-in as well seeing as he's the one who killed Syrio.  It's also a stronger tie-in to Westeros for Arya's plot.  If they make those connections, I'll give D and D some credit there.

 

Cersei sending Mace to deal with the Iron Bank shows just how she really doesn't give a damn about the Bank.  I'd still curious whom she intends to appoint as Hand of the King.  You know, I haven't heard anything about the actor coming back but Lancel Lannister would be a perfect choice to play Cersei's puppet Hand of the King.

Edited August 31, 2014 by benteen

[sev]

D&D specifically said they were using the teleporter next season to get Jaime from Dorne to the Riverlands so yeah they will feature that. 

I thought they just said that Jaime was still working on hid jetpack ie gravity belt (http://youtu.be/5Krz-dyD-UQ?t=2m43s)

[GreyBunny]

interview. He mentions seeing characters die in season 5. The "big funeral scene" must be Tywin. Loras gets a fight scene he hasn't filmed yet; maybe he attacks the men who arrest Margaery.

 

Dinklage and Glen filming.

 

 

I seriously hope that teeny weenie boat isn't supposed to be the Selaesori Qhoran.  

Loved that Finn dropped the tidbit that season 5 has leapt ahead of the books.  I'm aware some are wringing their hands but I'm enjoying the idea of the TV show moving forward into new material.

Edited September 1, 2014 by GreyBunny

[ElizaD]

Cersei sending Mace to deal with the Iron Bank shows just how she really doesn't give a damn about the Bank.  I'd still curious whom she intends to appoint as Hand of the King.  You know, I haven't heard anything about the actor coming back but Lancel Lannister would be a perfect choice to play Cersei's puppet Hand of the King.

 

I thought the show might have included the Tywin/Cersei scene about the Lannisters running out of money so that we'd understand why she refused to pay, but this looks like glorious AFFC Cersei stupidity. Show Mace might be dumber than anyone Book Cersei had on her small council.

 

Maybe TV Cersei decides that she doesn't need a Hand, which would upset Pycelle and the Tyrells who were hoping for the job. I haven't read anything about Kevan or Lancel returning, but some characters have come back with no warning (Balon and Aemon in S3, Hot Pie in S4).

 

Though I've been very unhappy with some of the decisions the showrunners have made regarding plot and characterization, Show Arya killing Trant should be good. And the longer we go without news about Aegon, the more I'm hoping that they've indeed cut him and will focus on getting the existing characters closer to the action.

[benteen]

They could still have cast Harys Swift or Owen Merryweather since they are minor characters even in the books.  I didn't know for instance that they had casted Ser Denys Mallister until the actor had unfortunately passed away.  The only other choice I could think of as Hand of the King would be Qyburn but with Varys's position open up (and him being a fugitive on Tyrion's level on the show) that will likely still go to Qyburn.

 

If Arya is going to kill Trant, which is very likely, then this should be the first confirmation that D and D are going into Winds of Winter material.

Edited September 1, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

 

I thought the show might have included the Tywin/Cersei scene about the Lannisters running out of money so that we'd understand why she refused to pay, but this looks like glorious AFFC Cersei stupidity. Show Mace might be dumber than anyone Book Cersei had on her small council.

I know!  I for one can't wait....also I wonder if having the Lannister mines run dry wasn't just foreshadowing for something scheduled to happen eventually in the books anyway-some readers had been finding evidence for years before Season Four that the Lannister's were having cash flow problems.  Or maybe D&D just wanted to be more explicit about the Lions being paper Lions at best whose so called invincibility was all a mirage, and further explain why Tywin's death spelled doom to the clan.  

 

Also sending Mace to Braavos sets it up for Loras to be the acting head of House Tyrell-and heck Mace might not even make it back alive which would make Loras Lord of Highgarden and that could have all kinds of repercussions in the series.  Remember, Martin did hint the Tyrell brothers would have a role to come-probably involving the Iron Born.  

 

 

Though I've been very unhappy with some of the decisions the showrunners have made regarding plot and characterization, Show Arya killing Trant should be good. And the longer we go without news about Aegon, the more I'm hoping that they've indeed cut him and will focus on getting the existing characters closer to the action.

 

Agreed.  I know, Martin wanted fAegon for the Perken Warbeck thing but really, the whole storyline felt like a waste to me.  It stole Dany's thunder, it will make the reveal about Jon less interesting, and I'm not looking forward to seeing *another* failed regime in KL before Dany gets there.  It just seemed like more meandering and unlike Martin, D&D can't afford that.  They have to start resolving some plots and getting to the climaxes and character arcs people actually care about.

 

In any event, the thought of how much they're accelerating things next season has me panting-I can't wait to see what happens!!!  Looks like we're going deep into Book Six territory indeed....I suspect next season is the one that will really make Book Purists heads explode with all the spoilers.  

[benteen]

Without fake Aegon though, I'm wondering what Varys's storyline will be because Fake Aegon is the one who Varys has thrown in with.

 

As someone pointed out, Cersei might appoint Loras to the Kingsguard as a way to screw with House Tyrell.  Though she could be setting herself up for another King(Queen)slayer situation by doing that.

 

It's very possible the Lannister mines are running dry in the books.  They've been fighting a costly war for years, the Crown still hasn't paid them back, and Robb's forces raided three Lannister gold mines during the war.

Edited September 1, 2014 by benteen