Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[benteen]

Excellent post.  I'd add to that that Tywin also planned to go back on the deal Tywin made with the Martells to deal with Gregor Clegane and it was only Clegane confessing to the murder that made Tywin try to honor the original agreement.

[Pete Martell]

D and D wouldn't know what to do with Satin.  A whore who doesn't get naked and have sex is as useless to them as Jaime is as a warrior without his hand.

 

I'm sorry to see Satin go but I'll point out what someone else said here.  I liked the character but the most interesting about him as that he was once a whore.  I think the Olly character could fit in well on this show as Jon's steward.  The whole mentor thing would be good for Jon and it'll be hard for him to forget that the kid killed Ygritte.

 

I do see that Olly is a Satin replacement (and most likely the alternative would be something like Oliver the plot point being booted from King's Landing to make sex eyes at Jon and I'd rather not see that), but I thought one of the big reasons the leaders of the NW were so upset about Satin was that Jon was choosing a lowborn sex worker as a steward. Olly might be a little young to be a steward, but he should be the poster child for Night's Watch recruitment - a kind, normal boy who joined them because evil ones beyond the Wall slaughtered his village and family. Thorne or Slynt or Bowen (if he's in the story) would look even more ridiculous than usual if they object. Perhaps that story will be dropped, I don't know.

[Winnief]

 

Olly might be a little young to be a steward, but he should be the poster child for Night's Watch recruitment - a kind, normal boy who joined them because evil ones beyond the Wall slaughtered his village and family. Thorne or Slynt or Bowen (if he's in the story) would look even more ridiculous than usual if they object. Perhaps that story will be dropped, I don't know.

 

I see Olly as a possible 'squire' to Jon.  But yeah, I think there will be plenty of other opportunities for Jon to be at odds with others most likely when he tries to settle the Wildlings on the Gift.

[Pete Martell]

I just hope it won't be written as more of hotheaded-but-wise young kid Jon clashing with the stuffy, blind leaders. In the books he makes some very difficult decisions, but he also challenges the Watch on every level even before the moment where he goes too far (wanting to send men to Winterfell). I'm not sure if the show will get that across. I think the way they did it in season 4 at times made both sides lack emotional heft.

[Winnief]

 

I just hope it won't be written as more of hotheaded-but-wise young kid Jon clashing with the stuffy, blind leaders. In the books he makes some very difficult decisions, but he also challenges the Watch on every level even before the moment where he goes too far (wanting to send men to Winterfell). I'm not sure if the show will get that across.

 

I'm not sure about that-they certainly gave Ser Alliser more dimension and complexity in "The Watchers on the Wall."  

[Pete Martell]

True. Hopefully that wasn't the exception to the rule. Perhaps he will be the one who has the teary-eyed Bowen Marsh stabbing scene.

 

What do people think of book Mace Tyrell vs. show Mace? Is he supposed to be this stupid? I think the actor said he was playing Mace as only tricking people, but the show never really gets that across to me, the way they did with Pycelle.

[Winnief]

 

What do people think of book Mace Tyrell vs. show Mace? Is he supposed to be this stupid? I think the actor said he was playing Mace as only tricking people, but the show never really gets that across to me, the way they did with Pycelle.

Well book Mace is the guy who thought up making the Hand's chair shaped like an actual hand so...in all seriousness, though, the fact that he ever consented to marrying Margaery to Joffrey shows a less than stellar mind at work.  He'd have married Willas to Cersei too, if Olenna hadn't objected.

 

 

Now on the show so far Mace has been a total lapdog to Tywin but that could change next season-after all we haven't seen much of him so far and even in the books he got more assertive after Tywin's death.  (Even as grandiose as Mace was he knew better than to try and assert himself too much in the presence of Tywin.)  

[benteen]

I always thought picking Satin as Steward to the Lord Commander was always more of a minor reason Marsh and his ilk were annoyed.

 

The portrayal of TV Mace has not been helpful.  Mace might not be the smartest Lord there is he doesn't believe himself not to be and those around him make sure he thinks he's important while they really run the show.  It makes TV Olenna look even irresponsible to leave him alone in King's Landing.  As one poster pointed out, Olenna publicly dismissing Mace the way she does on the show wouldn't go over well in a patriarchal society, no matter how smart ladies like Olenna and Margarey are.

 

TV Mace is a joke to be openly mocked, even by Tywin who needs his money.  TV Mace doesn't seem to mind though.

[Avaleigh]

If Sam isn't leaving the Wall, where does that put him during Jon's assassination, I wonder?

Also, what will keep Melisandre from burning Aemon?

Re: Mace--if they give him a scene alone with Margaery or maybe Loras where he is complaining about Cersei or about not being Hand. Maybe we can also hear him talk about his desire for a royal grandchild. I can hardly remember him speaking apart from that brief conversation he had with Oberyn.

Since he has so far been portrayed as a fool who is even marginalized by his own family it's going to be odd that Cersei wouldn't want to have him on the small council since she wants it to be filled with weaklings and idiots.

I am curious how the small council scenes will be next year and whether or not they'll introduce characters like Rosby and Aurane Waters. Littlefinger won't be around, Varys is gone, Jaime will be in Dorne. The only familiar face will be Pycelle's. I wonder if maybe they'll have Mace on the council but Cersei puts him in a position that he and Margaery find insulting.

They have to reintroduce Kevan too and we have to understand why he would immediately refuse her offer as Hand since the show hasn't really established why he would care either way whether or not she remained in KL.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Avaleigh

[patchwork]

I know she wanted to get out of Dodge but Olenna leaving KL makes more sense if Mace isn't as much of the bumbling fool as the Tyrells let the rest of the world think he is.  What I like about the Tyrells is that their cunning and hunger for power is tempered by the image they want to project. 

 

Joining with Renly and then the Lannisters is the same sort of calculated risk that got them High Garden in the first place.

[mac123x]

I am curious how the small council scenes will be next year and whether or not they'll introduce characters like Rosby and Aurane Waters. Littlefinger won't be around, Varys is gone, Jaime will be in Dorne. The only familiar face will be Pycelle's. I wonder if maybe they'll have Mace on the council but Cersei puts him in a position that he and Margaery find insulting.

 

Crazy idea number 738:  Instead of Mace on the Small Council, how about Margaery?  After she marries Tommen she'll be "queen" and they can have some delicious passive-aggressive verbal combat between her and Cercei.  It would also provide some additional motivation for Cercei's "destroy Marge" plots and schemes.

[Avaleigh]

Olenna seems confident enough in Margaery that she doesn't really worry too much about Mace being a problem. Olenna also wasn't counting on Tywin not being around and Mace suddenly being in a position where he'll be able to play a more active role.

Hopefully they'll bring her back next season for the funeral but I doubt it. The idea of her not being there to bring the snark kind of sucks.

I'm loving your suggestion of putting Margaery on the small council. Plus, Cersei can't argue with her being there because she'd essentially be arguing against her own presence on the council.

If something like that happens it'll be interesting to get Margaery's take on things like news from the Wall, Dany and her dragons, Myrcella in Dorne, etc.

One of the things I liked about show Margaery when she was first introduced was that moment she had with Littlefinger. He looks at her in a way that made it seemed like he recognized something that he sees within himself. He knew he'd be able to work with her and there's something about that which seems unsettling, but makes the character all the more intriguing to me so I'd like to see that element of Margaery explored next season. Maybe they'll create some scenes with Loras.

I'm assuming they have to bring in some eye candy too for Margaery if her arrest is going to be on charges of adultery. Some guy is going to be named and I dont think there's an existing character who can be substituted for any of the men named.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Winnief]

 

I'm assuming they have to bring in some eye candy too for Margaery if her arrest is going to be on charges of adultery. Some guy is going to be named and I dont think there's an existing character who can be substituted for any of the men named.

 

Agreed. I note that at the Purple Wedding, Margaery was seen admiring the singer's, and so I wonder if they'll do the Blue Bard thing again.

 

Also given Margaery's trial is based on Anne Boleyn, (who ND also has played,) and that in the books Cersei's suggestion was to slander Stannis by implying Shireen was the child of incest, and of course the old saying about projection, I wouldn't be surprised if show Cersei tries to go the incest route against Margaery and Loras, (as he's one of the few men she's ever alone with,) and try to kill them both, just like she tried in the books.  This would of course be unbelievably hypocritical and a laughably bad strategy on her part...but I don't think that would stop her.  

[benteen]

I'm curious about Cersei's Small Council too and wondering if they'll bring in minor characters like Harys Swift and Owen Merryweather.  Cersei's Small Council is indeed the "smallest council" and they are just her puppets so they're not going to stand out.  Considering how bumbling Mace is, I can't see him being sent off to "lay siege" to Storm's End again so maybe he'll end up as Hand.  Qyburn and Pycelle will be in there regular roles I imagine.  Jaime could possibly end up being Hand on the show but he's not going to be staying in King's Landing for long.

[mac123x]

Also given Margaery's trial is based on Anne Boleyn, (who ND also has played,) and that in the books Cersei's suggestion was to slander Stannis by implying Shireen was the child of incest, and of course the old saying about projection, I wouldn't be surprised if show Cersei tries to go the incest route against Margaery and Loras, (as he's one of the few men she's ever alone with,) and try to kill them both, just like she tried in the books.  This would of course be unbelievably hypocritical and a laughably bad strategy on her part...but I don't think that would stop her.  

 

Anne Boleyn was accused of sleeping with her brother George, so I definitely could see them going for that angle.  It'd be a good way to show how deranged Cercei is if she thinks anyone who has ever met Loras would believe it; his sexual orientation isn't a well-kept secret.  (I laughed when he asked Oliver "how did you know?  My future bride doesn't even know."  Yeah, that's because S3 Sansa was still pretty clueless.  She might not have known, but everyone else did.)

[Pete Martell]

I wonder if Oliver might be roped into this story, if they do the story. He could reveal his affair with Loras and then tell "the truth" about Loras and Margaery.

 

If they do go this route I wonder if they will still have Loras sent to Dragonstone to die. 

 

He's become all but MIA in the show so I sometimes wonder if they will just say he was sent back to Highgarden.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Ffiferoo]

I will be interested to see where they go with Loras, considering how they've basically left him up in the air within the plot of the show. Having him be the only son and heir to Highgarden makes it completely ridiculous for him to join the Kingsguard, but they're also not going to go through with the marriage plot now that Tywin is dead.  I guess he'll just hang around at court, and maybe the idea about him being part of the accusations against Marg will happen?

 

I do really like the thought of Margaery being on the small council, it would certainly add some great tension that we'll be lacking without Tywin and Tyrion around.  

[Pete Martell]

I know some book fans specced about him returning from the "dead" to be Margaery's champion in her trial, and that the whole death at Dragonstone was a ruse. Perhaps the show will have him as her champion.

[jjjmoss]

It'd be a good way to show how deranged Cercei is if she thinks anyone who has ever met Loras would believe it...S3 Sansa was still pretty clueless.  She might not have known, but everyone else did.

They know because people talk about it. People have not talked to Sansa about it.

Saying that "anyone who has ever met Loras" would automatically know he's gay unless clueless implies that homophobic stereotypes are super-true and anyone who acts a certain way is clearly gay. 

[Avaleigh]

Loras coming back in fine health to defend Margaery after also having the victory of securing Dragonstone? Again, something has to happen to these people already so they don't just sail on a yacht from one challenge to the next.

Love the suggestion of Oliver turning treacherous and informing on the Tyrell sibs.

I wonder who they'll use to be Cersei's go between and double (probably triple) crossing spy? I'll be surprised if they introduce the Merryweathers but I'm not sure who they'd have to serve their functions especially Taena.

The only reason I think they might keep Taena is that she's a large window into Cersei's vulnerability and highlights what a sad, pathetic, lonely and horrible woman she is and the show has been inclined to show Cersei's sympathetic side in the past. There are multiple points where Cersei's interactions with Taena made me pity her begrudgingly. She's so desperate for a friend that she's willing to find it in someone who is so clearly untrustworthy and doesn't do anything for her but occasionally feed her own delusions. (I suppose that's the point but surely she could get that sort of blind sycophantic behavior from a woman whose loyalty she wouldn't have as much reason to doubt; at *no* time is she ever suspicious of Taena's motives. This is crazy paranoid Cersei we're talking about!) She confides in this woman information she wouldn't even share with Jaime and even, inexplicably, likes the woman so much that she thinks her son would be a suitable playmate for Tommen--I can understand that Tommen needs friends in addition to the Tyrells but Cersei's obvious unhappiness with Tommen finding friendship among House Tyrell is a sharp contrast in to her attitude towards the Merryweathers and her attitude towards them seems to be exclusively down to whatever pleasure she gets from Taena's company. Even in the final chapter in ADWD we learn that Cersei's one request if she survives her trial is to have Taena again at her side. It's incredibly odd all around but Cersei doesn't seem like she's sexually interested in Taena so Idon't really understand what it's about apart from her being an incredibly lonely woman who has never had a real friend in her entire life.

[Winnief]

 

I do really like the thought of Margaery being on the small council, it would certainly add some great tension that we'll be lacking without Tywin and Tyrion around.

 

In the books one of the things Margaery does that especially annoys Cersei is encourage Tommen to attend Small Council meetings.  I can see situations arising with Margaery deciding to 'accompany' Tommen to these meetings, and then Cersei and Margaery engaged in mortal combat during said meetings each trying to sway Tommen to her side-much to the discomfort of everyone else present.  

[Hecate7]

The only "stereotype" about Loras is that he sleeps with men. That is "acting a certain way."

 

He's a handsome knight who wins jousts. That's not a gay stereotype. He's not a hairdresser, actor, or clothing designer. Like any human being he likes nice things. He dresses well and has good hygiene. I guess that's a gay stereotype, but plenty of straight men do, too. Jaime certainly does. Like anyone not into women, Loras did not fantasize about marrying a woman, and had to make something up for Sansa when she asked him about it. That scene did sound like a gay stereotype, with him talking about brocade and all, and isn't in the books at all. But I think it could have happened to anybody--what's there to say about weddings, if you haven't been thinking about one all your life?

 

People knew he was gay because his romance with Renly was common knowledge. I think he's underused, and I'd like to see more of Loras. I was very sad when they didn't have him go into the king's guard and utter his famous line, "when the sun has set, no candle can replace it." I was disappointed that they had him sleep with Olyvar so quickly, and cut his beautiful scene mourning over Renly's armor.

 

As much as I adore Indira Varma, I really hope they don't try to make her into Taena Merryweather. They have established the bisexuality, but it would take more than that to get her into bed with Cersei after what happened to Oberyn. It would just be too obvious that she's untrustworthy and probably using sex to get close to Cersei in order to destroy her, and Cersei would look even more of an idiot than she already does, if she deluded herself into thinking otherwise.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Hecate7

[Winnief]

 

As much as I adore Indira Varma, I really hope they don't try to make her into Taena Merryweather. They have established the bisexuality, but it would take more than that to get her into bed with Cersei after what happened to Oberyn.

 

Agreed.  Frankly, Show Ellaria has much too good taste to bed Cersei.

 

And I also agree we haven't seen the last of the Knight of Flowers-another reason I wonder if Cersei will try the incest story, is that it's a way to keep Margaery AND Loras very central to the KL drama as well as heightening the stakes for House Tyrell since it means BOTH their children and the heir to Highgarden are at stake.  

Also, if as many suspect House Tyrell may be doomed in future books one way or another, (like not only bad results at Margaery's trial but disaster at the hands of the Ironborn,) then combining Margaery and Loras's dooms together would certainly be economical.  

[mac123x]

They know because people talk about it. People have not talked to Sansa about it.

Saying that "anyone who has ever met Loras" would automatically know he's gay unless clueless implies that homophobic stereotypes are super-true and anyone who acts a certain way is clearly gay. 

 

You elided the part where I said "his orentation isn't a well kept secret".  I didn't mean to imply that he fits some Westerosi-stereotype; I meant that it's well known that he is gay.  Even Lannister foot soldiers were talking about it in the Whispering Woods (right before Greywind ripped their faces off).  If Cercei tries to say Loras slept with Margaery, that accusation is going to run into some serious skepticism.

Edited July 2, 2014 by mac123x

[Avaleigh]

I can see skepticism and I can see the type of people who would clutch their pearls and think oh, of course a deviant like Loras would be capable of incest as though that and homosexuality are on the same level. People used that silly justification when it came to arguing Prop 8.

It definitely reminds me of the conversation where Littlefinger suggests circulating the rumor that Shireen was fathered by Patchface rather than Stannis. Suggesting something so outrageous but *almost* plausible so that people wouldn't really know what to believe but those so inclined would jump on the story for whateverrreason. The smallfolk who want their so called betters to be brought low, the people who resent House Tyrell for siding with the Lannisters, people like Littlefinger or even Stannis who simply stand to gain from the rumours, etc.

[Winnief]

 

 

I can see skepticism and I can see the type of people who would clutch their pearls and think oh, of course a deviant like Loras would be capable of incest as though that and homosexuality are on the same level. People used that silly justification when it came to arguing Prop 8.

It definitely reminds me of the conversation where Littlefinger suggests circulating the rumor that Shireen was fathered by Patchface rather than Stannis. Suggesting something so outrageous but *almost* plausible so that people wouldn't really know what to believe but those so inclined would jump on the story for whateverrreason. The smallfolk who want their so called betters to be brought low, the people who resent House Tyrell for siding with the Lannisters, people like Littlefinger or even Stannis who simply stand to gain from the rumours, etc.

 

Point taken-but bear in mind Margaery is incredibly popular with the smallfolk in a way that Stannis and Selyse simply weren't.  For that matter so is Loras despite the fact people know about his orientation, the Knight of Flowers is very well liked for his gallantry and family's generosity so that particular slander might have trouble gaining traction...ESPECIALLY if it's perceived that Cersei was behind the accusation.   Also it would be immediately apparent why Cersei trying that particular lie would be a really, really dangerous strategy on her part-apparent that is to everyone except Cersei.  Even on the show she's definitely short sighted and tends to be indifferent to public opinion of her-which is a serious mistake on her part that eventually is bound to come back to haunt her.  

 

Anyway, I'm betting next season when Cersei begs Jaime for help the show will make it more explicit that Jaime's choosing Brienne over his sister, rather than in the books when he only left with Brienne, sometime after burning Cersei's letter.

[Avaleigh]

I'm guessing the first divide between Jaime and Cersei will be when he refuses her offer as Hand. She mentioned that she thought he should be Hand back in the pilot episode, so I'd be surprised if they don't circle around to this now that they have the chance. She won't understand why he won't want to rule together with her and there will be more friction if he takes a more pragmatic attitude towards the Tyrells than she does. I can see him being fine with the relationship between Tommen and Margaery and not really understanding Cersei's objections. I'd be curious how Margaery would act around Jaime and vice versa since they were both in KL at the time but never really crossed paths in the books. I can see them having some benign conversation within sight of Cersei and Cersei just going nuts with irritation over this potential candidate of the YMBQ vexing her on nearly every level.

I think she'll blame Tyrion being freed on Varys since he's MIA.

I can also see them having completely different takes on Tywin's death. I fully expect Cersei to be happy about it based on the last conversation she had with her father. He was nothing but a bullying pain in her ass at this point. She'll be angry that Tyrion was the one to do it (she might even secretly be jealous of what Tyrion finally had the nerve to do) butwith Jaime I think she'd admit the relief she feels now that their father is gone.

Jaime OTOH I expect that he'll feel some guilt over his father's death and won't appreciate whatever smug pleasure Cersei ends up revealing to him.He'll feel guilty, he won't feel like he can confide in her and the divide will likely grow from there.

My only issue with Jaime going to Dorne early in the season is that he might not stay in KL long enough to get a sense of what shit ruler Cersei is and that's what I was hoping would really come between them.

[benteen]

I'm guessing the first divide between Jaime and Cersei will be when he refuses her offer as Hand. She mentioned that she thought he should be Hand back in the pilot episode, so I'd be surprised if they don't circle around to this now that they have the chance. She won't understand why he won't want to rule together with her and there will be more friction if he takes a more pragmatic attitude towards the Tyrells than she does. I can see him being fine with the relationship between Tommen and Margaery and not really understanding Cersei's objections. I'd be curious how Margaery would act around Jaime and vice versa since they were both in KL at the time but never really crossed paths in the books. I can see them having some benign conversation within sight of Cersei and Cersei just going nuts with irritation over this potential candidate of the YMBQ vexing her on nearly every level.

I think she'll blame Tyrion being freed on Varys since he's MIA.

I can also see them having completely different takes on Tywin's death. I fully expect Cersei to be happy about it based on the last conversation she had with her father. He was nothing but a bullying pain in her ass at this point. She'll be angry that Tyrion was the one to do it (she might even secretly be jealous of what Tyrion finally had the nerve to do) butwith Jaime I think she'd admit the relief she feels now that their father is gone.

Jaime OTOH I expect that he'll feel some guilt over his father's death and won't appreciate whatever smug pleasure Cersei ends up revealing to him.He'll feel guilty, he won't feel like he can confide in her and the divide will likely grow from there.

My only issue with Jaime going to Dorne early in the season is that he might not stay in KL long enough to get a sense of what shit ruler Cersei is and that's what I was hoping would really come between them.

 

I can see relief from Cersei regarding her father's death but I can also see him becoming a saint in her eyes, taken away from her by his monster of a brother.  I can easily see that behavior coming form Cersei.

 

If the Hand of the King is a new character, I suspect it will only be one and not both.  Merryweather being the most likely candidate because of his wife Taena.

[Winnief]

 

My only issue with Jaime going to Dorne early in the season is that he might not stay in KL long enough to get a sense of what shit ruler Cersei is and that's what I was hoping would really come between them.

 

Actually, I think getting out of KL might be good for helping Jaime gain some perspective on the issue just like it was for him in Seasons 2&3.  I can see him coming face to face with the consequences of Cersei's lousy decisions; and that causes him to rethink a few things.  Frankly ShowJaime is a lot more clear eyed when he's away from Cersei.  

 

I also wonder if Kevan will play as important a role on the show as he does in the books, being the foil to Cersei's bad leadership style and also being something of a counterpart to the more brutal Tywin as well.  

Edited July 3, 2014 by Winnief

[Pete Martell]

Loras coming back in fine health to defend Margaery after also having the victory of securing Dragonstone? Again, something has to happen to these people already so they don't just sail on a yacht from one challenge to the next.

 

Yeah. I always assume those theories also involve him being killed by Robert Strong at the trial, but I agree that it's a little much. I wonder if the show may just streamline everything and have him still in KL, defending Margaery, and being killed.

 

While reading the books, I don't get as much of a sense of Loras' sexuality being a badly kept secret (he's described by various people as pretty, which can sometimes be interpreted as gay, but then it also applies to men like Rhaegar, so it doesn't have to be seen that way). In the show, I think it would be the worst kept secret around, because Show Loras decided to sleep with a lowborn he barely knew (I always wanted to see Olenna scold him over that...) and was making sex eyes at Oberyn during the last wedding feast. 

 

I know some Cersei fans assume the show will just Taena, or cut the sexual aspect. I know some of them see that relationship as being Cersei trying to consider what a man would be or do (I'm not saying women in lesbian relationships want to be men or think like men, I'm just saying Cersei has said she wished she were born a man). They haven't played that up on the show as much in the last few seasons though.

[Winnief]

 

n the show, I think it would be the worst kept secret around, because Show Loras decided to sleep with a lowborn he barely knew (I always wanted to see Olenna scold him over that...)

 

Bear in mind, when Olenna was asking Tywin if he ever 'indulged' the way Loras did she specifically mentioned "bannerman's sons...stable boys..."  Clearly playing around with your social inferiors isn't necessarily despised in Highgarden; just not bedding your own siblings.  

 

I think Olenna *would* have been annoyed with Loras though, for mentioning his plans to be marrying soon...that was supposed to stay under wraps.  

 

It's also possible that Cersei will try to get Olyvar to testify that he had an affair with Margaery.  I mean she could try Lancel but I don't think he's going to be doing Cersei any favors after Blackwater-I wonder if they'll keep him joining the Faith?!?  Hope they do.  I also believe that the private matter Cersei had been consulting with Qyborn about was an abortion-and that it's only a matter of time before Jaime finds out about it.  

[Pete Martell]

Sleeping with people in the Tyrell employ would have been fine. Sleeping with someone at King's Landing who had every reason to sell him out was another story. I think we agree on that, I just didn't phrase it well.

 

I wonder if they might bring someone who was in Renly's camp to King's Landing and try to claim she slept with him during two marriages.

 

Saying she slept with Olyvar would make sense too, since it can be easily proven he slept with Loras. 

[benteen]

Renly's homosexuality seems like something that isn't well-known in the books.  Certainly, the Lannisters would have spread that story out there if they knew.  The only one who makes a reference to knowing is Jaime when he tells Loras that if he doesn't get away from Brienne he's going to stick that sword in places Renly couldn't have imagined.  He either knew or was able to figure it out based on how Loras went after Brienne.  Does Stannis ever make any reference in the books to knowing about Renly?

 

I would imagine Varys knows as well.

[Avaleigh]

Stannis knows. I can't recall the exact quote but it was typical Stannis humor. Renly says something about how Margaery came to him a maiden and Stannis retorts that she's likely to die a maiden in Renly's bed.

[GreyBunny]

I think it was one of the worst kept secrets in the kingdom.  Brienne was the only one who didn't figure it out.

[Avaleigh]

That's actually a good point. Brienne isn't stupid and she would have been around Renly and Loras more than the average person, so that suggests to me that they at least attempted to be discreet.

Now that I think about it I'm pretty sure that Cersei has some internal thought about Loras's sexuality in AFFC so it seems the Lannisters had some idea. Show Tyrion certainly knows but I can't recall if book Tyrion ever thinks or talks about it.

Garlan is another character who makes a vague reference to knowing. Sansa was just as blind with Loras as Brienne was with Renly.

[Mormegil]

Show Tyrion certainly knows but I can't recall if book Tyrion ever thinks or talks about it.

 

 

 

Book Tyrion hires Renly's ex housekeeper as a Maid for Sansa. " Tyrion considers her a good choice, as her earlier service for Renly Baratheon has given her some practice at being blind, deaf and mute."

 

 

Of course since it was Varys who suggested hiring her to Tyrion she probably worked for him all along.

[jjjmoss]

I remember Cersei thinking something along the lines of "You horde of stupid girls, stop crying and sighing over Loras Tyrell. You ain't never gonna get a chance at that anyway" when he left to fight in book 4. 

 

So the commonfolk don't seem to know.

[Hecate7]

Well, there's what the "commonfolk" know, and there's what they tell their daughters.

[jjjmoss]

We don't spend time much with the commonfolk chatting about Renly, and I don't remember proof supporting what you're trying to say.

[Skeeter22]

I'm not sure exactly what the debate here is. Renly and Loras's relationship was like any other bit of court gossip, people who knew them and people who had access to court gossip knew they were gay. I don't think there is any reason to think it was common knowledge, though after the war started I would be shocked if Renly's enemies didn't spread the news in order to weaken his popularity. I'm not sure why anyone thinks it was obvious and someone like Sansa, who we know is treated like a pariah for most of her time in KL should know about it, unless you subscribe to some sort of antiquated ideas about stereotypes and gaydar. She had limited interaction with Renly and Loras in the books, and I found the comic LOL he's gay and she's too stupid to know! stuff from the show to be kind of juvenile and offensive. Your average person would have little reason to know much about the personal lives of nobles.

[lawless]

On the Show at least, I think Joffrey knew, because I think in the horrible dwarf/puppet show at the Purple Wedding the Renly puppet/actor was, er, riding a Loras puppet.  This caused Loras to be deeply humiliated and he fled the table.  Margaery also looked ill.  I was personally wishing puppet Angel would suddenly appear and rip Joffrey's head off, but fortunately Olenna's poison did the trick soon enough.  In any case, enough people know about Loras for Joffrey to have heard and to have decided to make the appalling joke -- or whoever helped him hire the people for the show did.

 

Anyway, Sansa is very young, was very sheltered in the North (where they seemed to focus predominantly on surviving skills for winter, "Winter is Coming" being their words and their main preoccupation in life), and since she's been in King's Landing, she's only had Shae for a companion.  It doesn't seem the subject came up, so I don't blame her for not knowing.  She may or may not have picked up on his lack of genuine enthusiasm about their impending marriage in their garden walk, but she wouldn't have reason to guess the reason at that time. 

[Hecate7]

There is absolutely no reason Sansa would have any idea Renly or Loras were gay, even though they flirted in front of her and Littlefinger made innuendo about it in front of her.

 

The soldiers and lords of King's landing who knew, had heard many dirty jokes. Sansa hadn't. She didn't even know the real word for excrement. People who know Loras, or people who know what to look for, or people who have heard gossip and innuendo and know what it means, would know. That's a lot of people but it still doesn't include Sansa.

[Avaleigh]

Points taken about why Sansa shouldn't have necessarily known that Loras is gay. I feel like book Sansa had a few more hints but I have to remember there's also book Sansa's age to consider and I admit I sometimes forget how young GRRM made the character.

It's still odd to me that GRRM wouldn't have thought it preferable to make the kids older--even if we'd had the five year gap, would it have been so terrible to read about an 18 year old Sansa in ADoS if he'd started her out as 13 in AGoT? I understand having Joffrey be younger in the books but I also like that the Lannister kids are older on the show and definitely think it makes Myrcella's story more interesting in particular since it seems she won't just be some sweet, innocent girl but might actually be given a personality and opinions. I look forward to more of Tommen with Margaery too and I'm not sure I'd necessarily feel that way if they'd kept him as an eight year old.

[Hecate7]

I have known 20 year olds as sheltered as Sansa. They couldn't spot what they didn't know existed. It's not a matter of age, so much as it is a matter of lifestyle. Sansa has been down on the farm until two years ago. Nobody tells her anything she doesn't absolutely need to know. Even Margaery Tyrell, who was on the point of telling Sansa the facts of life, backed down and said, "yes, dear girl, my mother told me." I honestly think that conversation was the first time anyone had ever mentioned same sex attraction to Sansa. Ever.

[Avaleigh]

Probably true and I can also see Sansa simply ignoring something that she might not have felt had a place in the world she'd created for herself in her head.

I do wonder if Sansa had remained at Winterfell for a couple more years if she still wouldn't have picked up on the idea of same sex attraction. I can't imagine for example that there weren't any similar hints given about some gay person or people living somewhere in the North--I mean, are we to believe that there aren't any quietly gay people living in Winterfell or at least in the North? Sansa was the type who would hear gossip and all that while she was with her friends. Eleven is still young but I'm inclined to believe that she could have picked up on this if she'd remained at home for a few more years. I'm thinking now of the conversation Olenna had with Tywin and again, I can't really see that if Sansa had continuing to live at Winterfell for the next couple of years or so that she wouldn't have eventually ended up hearing some type of comment or conversation that would lead her to put two and two together.

There are other things about her level of awareness that I would question. For example, it seems like a standard put down in Westerosi society to say that a man is behaving like a woman and if nothing else I feel like Sansa would have some level of understanding of the intolerance that would likely to be shown to anyone who displays any possible signs of SSA. These Northerners who basically think that they are as masculine as it gets--I feel a similar macho vibe from the IB--would Sansa really never have heard a woman or one of her father's bannermen or maybe a servant make some comment about men who are used as women, or men who aren't the marrying kind like her uncle Blackfish?

For some reason this makes me think about the conversation Sansa had with Robin in the show when he's asking her why Winterfell doesn't have a moon door and wonders what they do with all of the "bad" people or people they don't like. I found Sansa's response to be a little misleading. She actually says that they don't do anything with the "bad"people at Winterfell. Right afterwards she slightly amends this statement by saying that girls wouldn't have taken part in something like that, but the vibe that she's putting forth is that Winterfell wasn't a place where things like punishment and death sentences are handed out or that Winterfell didn't have it's own prisoners. I find that Winterfell is often idealized and presented as perfection and sometimes I just want to say, yeah, it's beautiful but don't forget about x, y, and z.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Avaleigh

[Wilowy]

  I was personally wishing puppet Angel would suddenly appear and rip Joffrey's head off

 

*dies* xD

[ElizaD]

This conversation reminded me of the moment in 3x02 when Margaery flinched after Joffrey mentioned he'd thought of making homosexuality punishable by death. At the time I thought it was meant as confirmation that Joffrey was as bad as Sansa said and had to go because the risk to the Tyrells (Margaery and Loras) was too great. But then in S4 the PW was Olenna's plan, Margaery didn't know about it (in the book she must have) and really thought she could control Joffrey. Overall, S4 Margaery came across as younger and less competent than before.

[benteen]

Cersei certainly didn't think Loras was gay...she thought he might be having a relationship with his sister.

[Hecate7]

Cersei certainly didn't think Loras was gay...she thought he might be having a relationship with his sister.

I think that was indicative of Cersei's descent into madness. She knew, and even reflected on Loras' proclivities, which was one reason she didn't want Tommen alone with him or learning from him. At the same time, her relationship with her own brother, and her own behavior as a girl, made her project the same onto Margaery. She could only point to Loras as Margaery's partner in crime, and her worries and fears about Loras' homosexuality didn't slow her down a bit in that accusation.