Television Vs. Book: Why'd They Make [Spoiler] Such A [Spoiler]?

[Avaleigh]

Another curious detail about Cersei's thought process when she's wondering how she might get Margaery out of the picture--she notes IIRC that Loras and Margaery look even more alike than she and Jaime do and she finds this to be irritating for some reason. It's funny, it's like she wants to think that they're infected with the same sort of narcissism that she and Jaime have, that it's somehow normal for look alike siblings to want to fuck each other--but then at the same time she clearly resents the idea of the Tyrell siblings being as close or even closer than she and Jaime are and would be happy to see them punished for it even though it's the same sort of behavior that she finds to be acceptable from herself.

I agree too that her internal thoughts here are indications of her growing madness and instability. That being said, Taena also helped feed Cersei's delusions about various things including certain behavior from the Tyrells.

[Hecate7]

Sleeping with people in the Tyrell employ would have been fine. Sleeping with someone at King's Landing who had every reason to sell him out was another story. I think we agree on that, I just didn't phrase it well.

 

I wonder if they might bring someone who was in Renly's camp to King's Landing and try to claim she slept with him during two marriages.

They probably will go digging for people to say she slept with them.

 

I can't blame Loras too much for the Olyvar thing. He was looking for sex, not love, so he went to a prostitute. Most people do not assume that Littlefinger's escorts are spying for him. Loras should have, of course, because he knows Littlefinger and he's been in King's Landing long enough to know how the place runs. He should have kept the "bride" stuff to himself, even with Olyvar.

 

Olyvar appears to be well on his way to becoming Roz 2.0.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

On the Robert thread there is some discussion going on that I feel better about continuing here, because a lot of it's having to be hidden behind spoiler bars.

 

On the show, Cersei refers to Robert knocking out one of Joffrey's baby teeth over "some unpleasantness with a cat." Book readers know the incident. Joffrey as a small child did not believe that a pregnant cat had kittens inside her. He cut her open and found out that yes, there were three kittens in her. He brought the kittens he'd taken from the dead cat's womb, (probably also dead, since they were taken out too soon) to Robert, who responded by hitting him in the face so hard he knocked out one of Joffrey's teeth.

 

Cersei's dismissal of the incident speaks volumes, IMO. The fact that Joffrey got the cat to sit still for being cut open implies that she wasn't one of the fast little ferals haunting the castle, but rather, a cat used to lap-sitting---perhaps Tommen's pet, or Robert's. I could see Robert Baratheon being the sort of big old softie who talks tough but loves cats.

 

Another cat related incident related to Robert, was when the black cat Tommen calls "the bad cat" stole a dinner (chicken, turkey, or something) from Tywin Lannister at the table. Just jumped up, grabbed the bird off the plate and ran off with it. Robert laughed uproariously, and the cat was nicknamed the True King of the castle. The cat is black with a notched ear, and is probably the same kitten Rhaenys was holding when someone dragged her from under the bed and stabbed her 23 times. "The bad cat" is probably the father of the 3 kittens Margaery gives Tommen. He is also the cat Arya kisses. He was probably also the father of the kittens Joffrey killed.

 

He represents two threats that lurk waiting for Tommen and Myrcella--the exposure of their true parentage, and the return of the Targaryen dynasty, and so I really miss him hanging around peering in Tommen's window and stealing chickens. I think the cat related incidents are particularly significant for the Lion siblings---both generations. Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion are 2 boys and a girl. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are 2 boys and a girl. Ser Pounce, Ladywhiskers, and Boots are 2 boys and a girl. I'm not sure where it's going but I think it's significant. And I think Ladywhiskers taking Ser Pounce's mouse represents that Myrcella is going to try to take the Throne from Tommen, or rather, that people representing her are going to force this in her name, regardless of what she herself wants.

 

On the show, Ser Pounce has no siblings, and he didn't come from Margaery. That makes me wonder if he originally had siblings, and if on the show Ladywhiskers was the ill-fated Mamacat. It's a miracle Tommen still has Ser Pounce on the show, and that bodes well for Tommen actually. Book Tommen looks like a sitting duck, but show Tommen is quite the survivor already.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Hecate7

[Pete Martell]

This conversation reminded me of the moment in 3x02 when Margaery flinched after Joffrey mentioned he'd thought of making homosexuality punishable by death. At the time I thought it was meant as confirmation that Joffrey was as bad as Sansa said and had to go because the risk to the Tyrells (Margaery and Loras) was too great. But then in S4 the PW was Olenna's plan, Margaery didn't know about it (in the book she must have) and really thought she could control Joffrey. Overall, S4 Margaery came across as younger and less competent than before.

 

I took the 3x02 scene as being less about her realizing he was a monster and more about Joffrey testing Margaery's reaction to the idea of her brother being in danger (and her husband's name being smeared), and viewers being invited to be impressed at how Margaery sailed through.

 

I don't think the show did a very good job of setting up Joffrey as an increasing danger in season 3. His worst act (killing Ros) was offcamera and done in an oddly clinical manner, with a posed corpse as Littlefinger droned on and on in various accents. The narrative seemed to suggest that Tywin and Margaery could control him.

 

Early season 4 told us they couldn't control him, but it also made Margaery's motivations more confusing. Did she truly think she could keep him from hurting her and the kingdom when that was very unrealistic (and Margaery is a very realistic woman)? Did her grandmother just keep her in the dark so she'd look genuinely surprised at the wedding? Or did she not trust her granddaughter?

 

I feel like someone decided Margaery was too confident in season 3 and that it would make it more difficult to believe the future stories where Cersei goes on a rampage against her and she goes on trial. 

 

For whatever reason, Margaery seemed very one-dimensional this past season, stripped of almost all of her interesting relationships (we should have had more of her with Loras to make up for Olenna and Sansa being gone), and she sometimes seemed very grasping and silly. We kept hearing about the threat the Tyrells posed, but we mostly just saw a few awkward, if well-acted, scenes with Margaery and Tommen.

 

Maybe the speculation that Margaery loses her trial and dies is right, and they're preparing us for that so we won't care when it happens.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Maximum Taco]

I took the 3x02 scene as being less about her realizing he was a monster and more about Joffrey testing Margaery's reaction to the idea of her brother being in danger (and her husband's name being smeared), and viewers being invited to be impressed at how Margaery sailed through.

 

I don't think the show did a very good job of setting up Joffrey as an increasing danger in season 3. His worst act (killing Ros) was offcamera and done in an oddly clinical manner, with a posed corpse as Littlefinger droned on and on in various accents. The narrative seemed to suggest that Tywin and Margaery could control him.

 

Early season 4 told us they couldn't control him, but it also made Margaery's motivations more confusing. Did she truly think she could keep him from hurting her and the kingdom when that was very unrealistic (and Margaery is a very realistic woman)? Did her grandmother just keep her in the dark so she'd look genuinely surprised at the wedding? Or did she not trust her granddaughter?

 

I feel like someone decided Margaery was too confident in season 3 and that it would make it more difficult to believe the future stories where Cersei goes on a rampage against her and she goes on trial. 

 

For whatever reason, Margaery seemed very one-dimensional this past season, stripped of almost all of her interesting relationships (we should have had more of her with Loras to make up for Olenna and Sansa being gone), and she sometimes seemed very grasping and silly. We kept hearing about the threat the Tyrells posed, but we mostly just saw a few awkward, if well-acted, scenes with Margaery and Tommen.

 

Maybe the speculation that Margaery loses her trial and dies is right, and they're preparing us for that so we won't care when it happens.

 

That's the opposite of what they would do. They want us to care a lot when people die.

 

Look at Oberyn, they spent so much time making him even cooler than he was in the books.

[Pete Martell]

That's the opposite of what they would do. They want us to care a lot when people die.

 

Look at Oberyn, they spent so much time making him even cooler than he was in the books.

 

They want us to be sad, but I think there's a difference between being sad when a nice or interesting character dies, and where Margaery was in season 3, where she was more of a central part of King's Landing and positioned as an equal to Cersei.

[Advance35]

I still think Margaery is Cersei's equal, she's just got better "wrapping" as it were.    I concede I definitely held the character in higher regard when I was exposed to her in the book but that version is left ambiguous enough that one can't say the tv show isn't a true representation of the character.

 

Considering all that happens to Margaery in AFFC, I find it easy to believe she very much relied on her Grandmother in terms of Courtly Intrigue and Politics.   She's smarter than any Stark BUT she's no Lady Olenna.    It's like she's a pageant contestant and Olenna is her manager.

 

I was surprised the character was presented this way but not disbelieving.   I always said Sansa would have had a FAR better life if she had Olenna Tyrell as a female authority figure (and Olenna had an actual interest in her welfare).

 

I feel like someone decided Margaery was too confident in season 3 and that it would make it more difficult to believe the future stories where Cersei goes on a rampage against her and she goes on trial.

 

I actually did find her confident this season, I dare say TO confident.   I'm thinking of the scene at Tommen's corronation.   When she told Cersei she didn't know if she should call her "Sister or Mother", this was of course a stab at Cersei for her comment at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding.   I thought how she handled Cersei there was a mistake and I don't think it's one Olenna would have made or even Sansa.    I think Margaery pre-AFFC and on the show is much more shrewd (since she's been trained) than Sansa, but she still has Sansa's (former) belief that nothing truly bad can happen to her.

[Pete Martell]

I actually did find her confident this season, I dare say TO confident.   I'm thinking of the scene at Tommen's corronation.   When she told Cersei she didn't know if she should call her "Sister or Mother", this was of course a stab at Cersei for her comment at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding.   I thought how she handled Cersei there was a mistake and I don't think it's one Olenna would have made or even Sansa.    I think Margaery pre-AFFC and on the show is much more shrewd (since she's been trained) than Sansa, but she still has Sansa's (former) belief that nothing truly bad can happen to her.

 

She was confident, but in a way that made her look (to me) arrogant and silly, whereas her confidence in season 3 was couched more in charm and pretense of virtue. Like the way she tried to butter up Cersei in season 3, when she knew this was pointless, but it made her look good to people for trying.

[Skeeter22]

I thought Margaery was clearly out of her depth by the end of season 3. That conversation with Cersei at Sansa's wedding was the Tyrells's future in a nutshell.  They will inevitably fall because they have overreached and tried to play with a group of people who aren't rational actors. The Starks may have not understood the political climate, but the Tyrells have no excuse. For them, it's pure arrogance and greed that moved them to hitch themselves to the Lannisters. I think Cersei will manage to deal the Tyrells at least one crushing blow before her own downfall. I won't be surprised if Margaery loses her trial and the Tarly forces abandon the Tyrells at some point.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Skeeter22

[ElizaD]

I actually did find her confident this season, I dare say TO confident.   I'm thinking of the scene at Tommen's corronation.   When she told Cersei she didn't know if she should call her "Sister or Mother", this was of course a stab at Cersei for her comment at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding.   I thought how she handled Cersei there was a mistake and I don't think it's one Olenna would have made or even Sansa.    I think Margaery pre-AFFC and on the show is much more shrewd (since she's been trained) than Sansa, but she still has Sansa's (former) belief that nothing truly bad can happen to her.

 

That comment was the kind of mistake I wouldn't have expected S3 Margaery to make. S3 Margaery almost always had her mask on and I'd thought that in 3x08 she'd recognized just how little Cersei wants to behave; S4 Margaery dropped the mask for the sake of a purely personal and obvious jab at the Queen Regent. At least Cersei went behind Margaery's back to give Pycelle her stupid order about the wedding food.

 

I remember that in an episode thread somewhere, I saw 4x04 Margaery and 4x08 Sansa compared. I don't know how much is due to script, actor or director choices, but it was pointed out that even though Margaery played Tommen and adjusted her tactics to his age and interests it was obvious to viewers that she was acting; Sansa's confession, on the other hand, was done so that only the final shot revealed how cool she was despite her tears (and the later Littlefinger scene confirmed that Show Sansa had come up with the plan independently) so that she was fooling both TV and Vale audiences. Whether that's intentional or just interesting fan analysis, I thought it was a nice hint that Margaery is probably doomed but Sansa is becoming a better player.

 

IMO, Margaery and Cersei might be equals in the sense that neither is as good as she thinks she is. Margaery is sane and with her savvy and PR skills she'd probably make a very successful consort in a peaceful realm, but despite Olenna's training she's been so sheltered by Tyrell power that she's not prepared for Cersei's batshit crazy scorched earth tactics even though she should know better. Cersei is terrible at long term thinking and PR, but she does know how to get momentary Pyrrhic victories over enemies like Ned and Margaery even if the loss of their houses' support will screw her over in the end.

[Advance35]

I thought Margaery was clearly out of her depth by the end of season 3. That conversation with Cersei at Sansa's wedding was the Tyrells's future in a nutshell.  They will inevitably fall because they have overreached and tried to play with a group of people who aren't rational actors. The Starks may have not understood the political climate, but the Tyrells have no excuse. For them, it's pure arrogance and greed that moved them to hitch themselves to the Lannisters. I think Cersei will manage to deal the Tyrells at least one crushing blow before her own downfall. I won't be surprised if Margaery loses her trial and the Tarly forces abandon the Tyrells at some point.

 

In a way they are like the Starks in that they are use to certain parameters maybe?   I think I've said before that it surprised me the Tyrells would get involved with the Lannisters because of all the murder and mayhem.   To be fair the Red Wedding was AFTER Joffrey and Margaery's formal bethrothal BUT the beheading of the Lord of a Great House isn't something that happens everyday, 

 

No matter how ambitious I was, THAT would make me think twice before waging into the war for the Iron Throne.   As much as I think Margaery was in over her head both with the show and the books (though the latter made her seem much more cunning) I have to wonder if Olenna Tyrell would have done any better.   Olenna is one of the more cunning players, she managed to murder Joffrey in front of his own mother and grandfather and pin it on 2 people who were out of favor, so she can clearly take DRASTIC action but I wonder how she would have handled a pos-Joffrey!Cersei.   Although I guess the fact that Olenna managed to push the Tommen/Margaery match through and get them to share a bed on their wedding night means she would have still outmanuevered Cersei at every turn, maybe even caught on to what she was doing with the Faith.

 

I can't remember where but I thought someone once provided a quote where GRRM said that readers would be seeing Lady Olenna again Post-AFFC.

 

That comment was the kind of mistake I wouldn't have expected S3 Margaery to make. S3 Margaery almost always had her mask on and I'd thought that in 3x08 she'd recognized just how little Cersei wants to behave; S4 Margaery dropped the mask for the sake of a purely personal and obvious jab at the Queen Regent. At least Cersei went behind Margaery's back to give Pycelle her stupid order about the wedding food.

 

I actually thought Margaery was rather snippish in her walk with Cersei during Sansa's wedding.   When Cersei said "You've heard the Reins of Castamere" and Margaery volleyed with "Of course, they play it so often here at court."   And of course her dinner with Cersei and Joffrey how she commented on Cersei's gown, the material, the metal work and how she's never seen anything like it. Hee.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Advance35

[Winnief]

 

 

I thought Margaery was clearly out of her depth by the end of season 3. That conversation with Cersei at Sansa's wedding was the Tyrells's future in a nutshell.  They will inevitably fall because they have overreached and tried to play with a group of people who aren't rational actors. The Starks may have not understood the political climate, but the Tyrells have no excuse. For them, it's pure arrogance and greed that moved them to hitch themselves to the Lannisters. I think Cersei will manage to deal the Tyrells at least one crushing blow before her own downfall. I won't be surprised if Margaery loses her trial and the Tarly forces abandon the Tyrells at some point.

In a way they are like the Starks in that they are use to certain parameters maybe?   I think I've said before that it surprised me the Tyrells would get involved with the Lannisters because of all the murder and mayhem.   To be fair the Red Wedding was AFTER Joffrey and Margaery's formal bethrothal BUT the beheading of the Lord of a Great House isn't something that happens everyday,

 

I think Olenna *did* understand the risks they were running-her commenting, "We should have stayed well out of all this," and her crack that Mace was trying to ride a lion without watching where he was going.  Unfortunately, I don't think the rest of her family shared her level of prudence; Mace and Margaery were both swept away by the thought of putting Tyrell children on the IT and Margaery being Queen to the point that they ignored just how unstable and dangerous the Lannister's really were.  The Starks whatever else their mistakes at least understood from the beginning the Lannister's weren't trustworthy. (Too bad they didn't realize that about LF or Roose Bolton.) I think Margaery and Loras (if not their dad) have started to wise up to what it means to play with Lions but they're now kind of stuck.  

 

Frankly, aligning with House Lannister is going to prove to be a bad deal for just about EVERYONE as Walder Frey will soon learn.  I for one can't WAIT.  I also look forward to seeing Tywin's toady Pycelle see the ship he chained himself to start to sink before Tywin's body is even cold.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Winnief

[Scarlett45]

I think Olenna *did* understand the risks they were running-her commenting, "We should have stayed well out of all this," and her crack that Mace was trying to ride a lion without watching where he was going.  Unfortunately, I don't think the rest of her family shared her level of prudence; Mace and Margaery were both swept away by the thought of putting Tyrell children on the IT and Margaery being Queen to the point that they ignored just how unstable and dangerous the Lannister's really were.  The Starks whatever else their mistakes at least understood from the beginning the Lannister's weren't trustworthy. (Too bad they didn't realize that about LF or Roose Bolton.) I think Margaery and Loras (if not their dad) have started to wise up to what it means to play with Lions but they're now kind of stuck.  

 

Frankly, aligning with House Lannister is going to prove to be a bad deal for just about EVERYONE as Walder Frey will soon learn.  I for one can't WAIT.  I also look forward to seeing Tywin's toady Pycelle see the ship he chained himself to start to sink before Tywin's body is even cold.

I agree with you. I believe that Olenna, having the gift of wisdom knew that the Lannisters were a bad deal, but after her son/grandson got them involved in this whole mess by STUPIDLY backing Renly, the individual with the LEAST claim to the throne, and then wanted to back the Lannisters she was probably doing her best at damage control. She she is the "leader" of their house, but her son has the formal power, and if she chose to not get involved at all she may see her house in ruins. 

 

I also think that initially other political players may have known how silly Joffrey was, but not how vicious, and how could people away from court (without the benefit of instant communication) know what life is REALLY like at court? How crazy Cersei REALLY was? Olenna probably caught on quickly once she arrived at court, but at that point what could she do with her beloved granddaughter engaged to the King? She was probably like "we should either sink or swim".

[Winnief]

 

I also think that initially other political players may have known how silly Joffrey was, but not how vicious, and how could people away from court (without the benefit of instant communication) know what life is REALLY like at court? How crazy Cersei REALLY was? Olenna probably caught on quickly once she arrived at court, but at that point what could she do with her beloved granddaughter engaged to the King? She was probably like "we should either sink or swim".

 

I think that was it exactly.  Also I believe one Margaery's seemed less confident this season its because she's caught on to how dangerously dysfunctional the Lannister family is, (and the crazy streak in Joff and Cersei,) only she didn't find out how bad it really was until it was too late.  I get the impression she is in fact genuinely pleased with Tommen because deep down she was terrified of being married to Joffrey-but now she has to contend with an increasingly unstable and erratic Cersei.  

 

Thing is people throughout the Seven Kingdoms (even the multitudes who hated him,) looked upon Tywin Lannister as this almost mythical  Great Strongman who all must fear.  (Note Walder's smug assumption that having Tywin Lannister on his side would protect him from RW Fallout.) I think the Tyrells, (certainly Mace at any rate,) fell prey to this belief as well.  As competent and ruthless as Tywin was, he was never as invincible or as infallible as he liked to project.  And even if he had been he definitely wasn't immortal.  A lot of people should have been asking themselves the question Davos asked the folks at the Iron Bank-what happens to House Lannister when Tywin's gone? If they had thought about that-really thought about, I suspect a lot of Lannister allies might have taken a different path.  

 

Olenna being older herself probably did consider this, (note her objections to a Cersei/Loras match on the sensible grounds that Cersei may no longer be viable to produce little Tyrell heirs,) but again in all the excitement no one was listening to Grandma's words of caution.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Winnief

[Scarlett45]

WinnieF- you are right on the money. I too think Margery was terrified of being married to Joffrey. Being married to a vain man who likes to get violent when he drinks, or has his ego bruised is one thing, being married to a sociopath is quite another. One wrong mood, one wrong word and she would be dead of an "accident". Tommen, although younger (and that is a temporary state) seems rather pleasant and just as handsome. 

 

I too wonder why NO ONE (besides Davos) was thinking of what would happen to House Lannister when Tywin was gone. Had the War not started and the incest rumors not come out, okay, but when all this mess went down the only person who seemed capable enough to handle anything was Twyin. I wish we had Kevan fleshed out more before he died, maybe the show will give us some good scenes with he and Cersei next season. WHO is she going to play off of with all of the other players out of Kings Landing, her only interactions would be with Pycelle, her son, and her enemies- the Tyrells. 

[Winnief]

 

I too wonder why NO ONE (besides Davos) was thinking of what would happen to House Lannister when Tywin was gone. Had the War not started and the incest rumors not come out, okay, but when all this mess went down the only person who seemed capable enough to handle anything was Twyin.

 

Well there was Tyrion as well-but nobody expected the Imp to be in charge after Tywin's death.  For a guy who was obsessed with his legacy Tywin, was remarkably negligent in working to ensure a viable successor to lead his House upon his demise.  So much of Season 3 (and ASOS) was shadowed by Tywin realizing that King Joffrey-the crown jewel of Tywin's plans to create a Lannister dynasty, who he's killed tens of thousands for is the worse possible person in all of King's Landing to be King and that there's no way in Seven Hell's he can keep the Throne on his own.  Tywin also for the first time faces some hard truths about his Beautiful, Golden, daughter Queen Cersei.  Namely that she's not fit to be a Queen or a mother.  (Which I believe is one key reason he was so intent on marrying her off-he wanted her out of King's Landing.) One thing about his scene with Tommen in the Sept, was that it really made evident what was only implied in the books; Tywin's latched on to Tommen as his last hope to get it right.  He wasn't just planning on using the boy as his puppet King.  He fully intended to mold  Tommen into Tywin's idea of a proper King.  Yet another good reason to get Cersei out of King's Landing.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Winnief

[benteen]

WinnieF- you are right on the money. I too think Margery was terrified of being married to Joffrey. Being married to a vain man who likes to get violent when he drinks, or has his ego bruised is one thing, being married to a sociopath is quite another. One wrong mood, one wrong word and she would be dead of an "accident". Tommen, although younger (and that is a temporary state) seems rather pleasant and just as handsome. 

 

I too wonder why NO ONE (besides Davos) was thinking of what would happen to House Lannister when Tywin was gone. Had the War not started and the incest rumors not come out, okay, but when all this mess went down the only person who seemed capable enough to handle anything was Twyin. I wish we had Kevan fleshed out more before he died, maybe the show will give us some good scenes with he and Cersei next season. WHO is she going to play off of with all of the other players out of Kings Landing, her only interactions would be with Pycelle, her son, and her enemies- the Tyrells. 

 

Yeah, dealing with Joffrey for a lifetime is not a promising situation. 

 

I've jokingly wondered at times if you had to have dinner with the three worst men in Westeros (Joffrey, the Mountain, and Ramsay), who would it be.  I think Joffrey because I think you could appeal to his ego initially and keep him from going crazy.  Ramsay is a complete psycho who will screw with you no matter what, just because he likes to.  And the Mountain once killed one of his own men for snoring too loudly so if you were with him, he'd likely not your teeth out and/or kill you.

[Pete Martell]

The Lannisters being so weakened and fragment in seasons 2 and 3 probably helped encourage the Tyrell delusion. I also think they underestimated Tywin's neuroses, as you mention. His loathing of Tyrion destroyed him and went a great way to destroying his family. Perhaps they didn't realize the chaos that would bring.

 

It's interesting to look back at just how smooth Tywin was portrayed as during season 3 compared to season 4. In season 4 he was written as much more vengeful and deluded, although Charles Dance still played him with strength.

 

I wish we'd actually seen the leadup to his having sex with Shae. I think that would have shed more light on him and his foibles.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Pete Martell

[Winnief]

 

 

I also think they underestimated Tywin's neuroses, as you mention. His loathing of Tyrion destroyed him and went a great way to destroying his family. Perhaps they didn't realize the chaos that would bring.

It's interesting to look back at just how smooth Tywin was portrayed as during season 3 compared to season 4. In season 4 he was written as much more vengeful and deluded, although Charles Dance still played him with strength.

 

Yeah, I think what happened in Season Four was that Tywin in a delicious bit of irony was in the wake of his victory in the WoTFK, supposedly a moment of strength for the Lannister's was confronted with just how bad his family's internal divisions and dysfunctions really were.  Also all those acts of brutality and cruelty over the years were finally coming back to haunt him; Oberyn's arrival on the scene was the first leaf of autumn there.  The RW among other things may have helped the Lannister's win in the short term, but in the long term it was a highly destabilizing event and in the aftermath no one trusts them or esteems them anymore.  They haven't just made themselves hated in all Seven Kingdoms but despised as well, and I think Tywin was starting to realize that too.  Tywin doesn't mind hatred if it's laced with fear but he couldn't stand the thought that anyone might regard him or the rest of his House with contempt.  But it was pretty obvious that's exactly what was happening.  

 

Also it's worth noting that in Seasons 2 and 3, the Lannister's still had Tyrion, LF, AND Varys working for them which put them in a much more solid position and helped veil at least some of their problems to outsiders like the Tyrell's.  But then Lord Baelish leaves town, then Tyrion became increasingly marginalized even before he was framed, and without the imminent threat of Stannis and Mel taking KL suddenly Varys isn't so invested in keeping a Lannister on the IT, and the fault lines become a LOT more apparent.  

Edited July 10, 2014 by Winnief

[Maximum Taco]

They want us to be sad, but I think there's a difference between being sad when a nice or interesting character dies, and where Margaery was in season 3, where she was more of a central part of King's Landing and positioned as an equal to Cersei.

 

I disagree, I think they want us to be shocked, and the best way to do that is make the character as central to the plot as possible before offing them.

 

If Margaery was slated for imminent death I think they'd be pushing scenes with her all the more, regardless of her popularity or how sad we'd be if she died.

[lawless]

His loathing of Tyrion destroyed him and went a great way to destroying his family. Perhaps they didn't realize the chaos that would bring.

That horrific trial did nothing to help improve the reputation of the Lannister trial, and it certainly seemed to open Margaery and Loras' eyes as to what they are now in bed with, and how vicious the Lannisters can be, even to their own.  But I wondered, particularly on the Show, if Tywin was somewhat trapped into letting Tyrion take the blame for Joffrey's murder.  The murder of a King is a pretty unusual, destabilizing event, and the Lannister's hold on the throne through their bogus Baratheons is slippery. I would think you would want to solve the murder and bring justice to the murderer as fast as possible, lest the population get ideas that Kings are touchable and the Lannisters too weak to protect their own.  That being the case, Cersei set things in motion by publically accusing Tyrion of the murder immediately after Joffrey's death.  If he were proven innocent, it would call her judgment into question, and, as she is the Queen Regent and her reputation had already taken a beating, that would not be helpful.  I always wondered if Tywin suspected the Tyrells, but knew he could not turn on them without devastating his own House.  And besides,  he had no affection or respect for Joffrey, and had to know that Joffrey was a disaster waiting to happen, that his murder was a blessing for the Realm, and that it improved the long term viability of the Lannister House for Joffrey to die.  So maybe Tywin wasn't motivated entirely by a neurotic desire to persecute Tyrion, but also by the reality of needing the people to believe that Joffrey's murder had been quickly solved and the wrongdoer was an unpopular person who was quickly punished, and by the reality of needing a scapegoat to protect the Tyrells.

[Hecate7]

Lawless, I think that is a very good point. It's not a point that would cut any ice with Tyrion, Jaime, or even Cersei if she weren't so insanely committed to hating Tyrion.

[Winnief]

 

That horrific trial did nothing to help improve the reputation of the Lannister trial, and it certainly seemed to open Margaery and Loras' eyes as to what they are now in bed with, and how vicious the Lannisters can be, even to their own.

Agreed.  The Tyrell's by way of contrast may be scheming social climbers but they are loyal to one another.  The key to "Growing Strong" is you don't sacrifice your own.

 

 

I always wondered if Tywin suspected the Tyrells, but knew he could not turn on them without devastating his own House.  And besides,  he had no affection or respect for Joffrey, and had to know that Joffrey was a disaster waiting to happen, that his murder was a blessing for the Realm, and that it improved the long term viability of the Lannister House for Joffrey to die.

 

Precisely.  From Tywin's perspective Joffrey's death was a gift from the Seven.  It replaced a psychotic Wild Card with a biddable, good natured kid and actually strengthened the coalition immeasurably.  But of course someone had to take the fall for it, and he couldn't afford to lose the support of House Tyrell.

[Advance35]

I always thought Tywin had his suspicions as well.   He had been in Kings Landing for some time and he had known of Joffrey and Tyrions animosity, if Tyrion were going to murder Joffrey he would have done it some time ago.   Tywin's also been around long enough to get a sense of Sansa, in the books he assesses Sansa as "Comely, Nubile and tractable", I don't think he knew the details but I'm positive Tywin knew much more was at play.   That Tyrion and Sansa had been someone else's fall guy.   I imagine he suspected the Tyrells but could find no evidence, he wouldn't have shared his suspicions with anyone because he didn't trust anyone.    I think he would have eventually got around to "Paying the Lannister family's debt" to the Tyrells, he hates Tyrion but he went to war over him.

 

In the book, Mace isn't someone easily dismissed, he has to be handled.   Tywin ordering Mace to fetch his quill and parchment would NOT have flown in the book and coupled with the subtle manipulations of Olenna and this alliance was never really longterm.   In Kevan's chapter of ADWD he notices that in the Throne Room where he and Mace and Randyll Tarly are meeting.   The Lannister soldiers are lined up on one side of the Throne Room and the Tyrell soldiers are lined up on the other side.   I think that would have come about no matter what.

 

We got Littlefingers view on all of these events, he was anticipating the fracturing of that alliance.   He anticipates a "War of 3 Queens" but I hope we get a chance to hear Sansa's thoughts on Kings Landing activity.  The imprisonment of Cersei and Margaery, the subsequent release of Margaery and Cersei's walk of shame.  And the impending trials.   Will Sansa want the worst outcome for both to dimish the power of the Lannisters and the Throne, and the threat it poses to her own personal safety?   Will she feel sympathy for Margaery Tyrell?   I just want a scene of Littlefinger and Sansa discussing the latest events in Kings Landing.

 

I think that was it exactly.  Also I believe one Margaery's seemed less confident this season its because she's caught on to how dangerously dysfunctional the Lannister family is, (and the crazy streak in Joff and Cersei,) only she didn't find out how bad it really was until it was too late.  I get the impression she is in fact genuinely pleased with Tommen because deep down she was terrified of being married to Joffrey-but now she has to contend with an increasingly unstable and erratic Cersei.

 

This didn't come across to me.   After the Purple Wedding Margaery came across as pouting to me because she wasn't completely Queen, since the marriage hadn't been consumated.   And she talks about how horrible/sad it was to see Joffrey choking to death in his mothers arms.   Olenna had to break it down for her as to why Joffrey's demise was for the best.   In the book she came off as uncaring and on reflection one has the impression she knew what Olenna had planned for him, but in the show I got the sense that Margaery thought she could keep control of Joffrey indefinitely.

[Winnief]

 

We got Littlefingers view on all of these events, he was anticipating the fracturing of that alliance.   He anticipates a "War of 3 Queens" but I hope we get a chance to hear Sansa's thoughts on Kings Landing activity.  The imprisonment of Cersei and Margaery, the subsequent release of Margaery and Cersei's walk of shame.  And the impending trials.   Will Sansa want the worst outcome for both to dimish the power of the Lannisters and the Throne, and the threat it poses to her own personal safety?   Will she feel sympathy for Margaery Tyrell?   I just want a scene of Littlefinger and Sansa discussing the latest events in Kings Landing.

 

OMG I would LOVE it if we got this.  I would love it even more if Sansa immediately started reflecting on how she could turn all this to her advantage or what it meant for the future in KL.

 

 

This didn't come across to me.   After the Purple Wedding Margaery came across as pouting to me because she wasn't completely Queen, since the marriage hadn't been consumated.   And she talks about how horrible/sad it was to see Joffrey choking to death in his mothers arms.   Olenna had to break it down for her as to why Joffrey's demise was for the best.   In the book she came off as uncaring and on reflection one has the impression she knew what Olenna had planned for him, but in the show I got the sense that Margaery thought she could keep control of Joffrey indefinitely.

 

Remember Margaery's crack about Joffrey giving her a necklace of birds heads?!?  She may have been putting up a bright cheerful front, "I'm going to be Queen, I'm going to be Queen," but deep down she had to be worried; she just might not have been willing to admit it.  Possibly not even to herself, lest she succumb to panic.

[Advance35]

Remember Margaery's crack about Joffrey giving her a necklace of birds heads?!?  She may have been putting up a bright cheerful front, "I'm going to be Queen, I'm going to be Queen," but deep down she had to be worried; she just might not have been willing to admit it.  Possibly not even to herself, lest she succumb to panic.

 

Oh I totally remember that, I just never got a sense of fear about it.   I got more "Put-upon, look at what I have to put up with" type of vibe.  I never got any fear, by writing or by the actress.   I think she SHOULD have been afraid but I think Margaery thought she had the whole mess well in hand.

 

OMG I would LOVE it if we got this.  I would love it even more if Sansa immediately started reflecting on how she could turn all this to her advantage or what it meant for the future in KL.

 

I don't know if the book version of the characte is there yet,  but I fully expect Show!Sansa to have that kind of conversation with Littlefinger.

[Pete Martell]

I really hope next season will bring back more of how important the direwolves are supposed to be. I don't really know when that returns to a prominent role in Arya's story in the books, but in the show Nymeria is never mentioned. Summer is just a guard dog. The only one who comes close to filling the early role is Ghost.

 

I wonder if they're going to have Jon doing any warging next season.

[SeanC]

I don't think there's anything indicating that Book!Tywin had any suspicions about the Tyrells.  Book!Tywin, unlike the show version, seems to have believed sincerely that Tyrion was guilty.  Book!Jaime, for that matter, at least thought it could be true.  That's one of the big differences between the book and the show -- in the show, none of the major characters apart from Cersei believe Tyrion actually did it; but in the books, the frame-job is much more widely-accepted.

[benteen]

I think if Tywin did find out about the Tyrells killing Joffrey, he would look to carry out some retribution down the line if he could get away with it.  Joffrey's death was a fortunate thing for the Realm but Joffrey was still a member of his family.  Just like when Catelyn took Tyrion prisoner, Tywin doesn't forget these things.

[ElizaD]

HBO comments:

 

HBO co-president Richard Plepler and programming president Michael Lombardo were asked by critics Thursday if there was anything “short of nuclear war” that would prevent Thrones from completing its entire story as planned. “No … we’re committed to it and [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] are committed to it,” Lombardo told reporters at the Television Critics Association press tour in Beverly Hills.

 

Some fans of George R.R. Martin’s ongoing book series will find the assurance a bit unnerving, as many hope the author will continue trail-blazing the show’s narrative—a goal of all the parties involved in the production that seems less likely with each passing season. “Obviously George is an integral part of the creative team,” Lombardo said. “So next season every move is being choreographed very closely with him. Certainly after next year we’ll have to figure it out with George, but we’re not concerned about it.”

 

The Thrones showrunners plan to finish the series in seven seasons, with next year’s fifth season drawing heavily from Martin’s fourth and fifth novels in the saga (A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons). So seasons six and seven are expected to be culled from either as-yet-unpublished material—should Martin’s next novels The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring not come out before each season—or pave its own way.

 

Also, HBO once again shot down speculation about finishing the series with a Thrones movie (or two). “There’s no conversations going on about a movie,” Lombardo said.

[Hecate7]

I can see why he wants a movie. Lots and lots of money.  I don't see it happening, though. I saw the Potter movies because I wanted to see what I'd already read, on the screen, not because it was the only way to find out how the story ended. Anyone who saw the X Files movies won't be falling for that one again.

[Advance35]

I think if Tywin did find out about the Tyrells killing Joffrey, he would look to carry out some retribution down the line if he could get away with it.  Joffrey's death was a fortunate thing for the Realm but Joffrey was still a member of his family.  Just like when Catelyn took Tyrion prisoner, Tywin doesn't forget these things.

 

I think House Tyrell was on Tywins list all along.   They allied themselve's with the opposition in the beginning and would have worked towards House Lannisters downfall if Renly hadn't been killed.   And he wasn't to pleased when he found out what Olenna and Margaery were conspiring with regards to Sansa.   If Tywin had lived to see Stannis defeated I definitely think a Lannister v. Tyrell showdown would have occured.   Maybe not as volatile and public as it is with Cersei at the helm of House Lannister, but than again.......

 

Book!Jaime, for that matter, at least thought it could be true.  That's one of the big differences between the book and the show -- in the show, none of the major characters apart from Cersei believe Tyrion actually did it; but in the books, the frame-job is much more widely-accepted.

 

Am I remembering wrong or didn't Jaimie think Sansa had done it and that Tyrion was covering for her.   I thought Jaimie, Cersei and Loras Tyrell were all vehement that Sansa had done it, each for their own reasons but Tywin seemed blase about it, just saying "the girl will be found and the Kings justice carried out" or something like it.   Maybe I am mixing the books and the shows together.

 

And I have already accepted that the television show is going to tell me the fate of all these characters, I doubt GRRM ever finishes this series just because he's doing god knows what these days.  Shrug, I just make a point not to buy any of his other works, though it may be my loss because I think I heard "Dunk and Egg" is held in high regard.

[Ffiferoo]

The HBO execs saying that they're "not concerned" is interesting (not surprising though) - the optimistic interpretation of that would of course be that GRRM is nearing completion of TWoW and they'll have it to work from when writing season six, although that's probably not the case.  It seems like they're just at the point (or maybe they always were) of not caring whether he even writes any more books at all.  They have the rights and he told the showunners all of the important points, so they have all they need from him already.  I highly doubt that a movie will happen, even if they haven't specifically ruled it out yet - it's just wishful thinking on GRRM's part now that he realizes the readers are going to get screwed out of finding out the end game as he intended it.  I wonder what the likelihood would have been that the showrunners would have agreed to hold off on initiating the show until after the sixth book had been released.  Probably slim, but I feel like that would have been the only way to guarantee enough time to get through the rest of the series without them catching up.  I guess things happen when they happen though, and it doesn't seem like there's any fixing it now!

[Pete Martell]

If HBO doesn't get any new hits, I wonder if they're going to try to get D&D to drag this out for an 8th season. The Sopranos felt like it lingered on for years after David Chase wanted to end it, because of $$$$$.

 

If not I wonder if they'd do a prequel.

[SeanC]

If HBO doesn't get any new hits, I wonder if they're going to try to get D&D to drag this out for an 8th season. The Sopranos felt like it lingered on for years after David Chase wanted to end it, because of $$$$$.

Chase had complete control over it.  HBO isn't Showtime, it doesn't stretch out shows like that.

[ElizaD]

I wonder what the likelihood would have been that the showrunners would have agreed to hold off on initiating the show until after the sixth book had been released.  Probably slim, but I feel like that would have been the only way to guarantee enough time to get through the rest of the series without them catching up.

 

When Variety announced the HBO deal in 2007, the article said GRRM had nearly finished the fifth book but wouldn't complete the seven-book series until 2011. If that was the assumption/progress report when they started developing GOT, they couldn't have guessed how bad the delays would be. It took four years to get the first season on TV and to get ADWD which was "nearly finished" in January 2007. Now it's 2014 and book 6 hasn't been released. If HBO could have seen those release dates back in 2006/2007 it might not have gambled on ASOIAF, but they went ahead with the long pre-production process and now the show is such a huge hit that they can't/don't need to wait for GRRM.

[Winnief]

 

When Variety announced the HBO deal in 2007, the article said GRRM had nearly finished the fifth book but wouldn't complete the seven-book series until 2011. If that was the assumption/progress report when they started developing GOT, they couldn't have guessed how bad the delays would be. It took four years to get the first season on TV and to get ADWD which was "nearly finished" in January 2007. Now it's 2014 and book 6 hasn't been released. If HBO could have seen those release dates back in 2006/2007 it might not have gambled on ASOIAF, but they went ahead with the long pre-production process and now the show is such a huge hit that they can't/don't need to wait for GRRM.

 

Good points all.  Another factor is that by now, D&D have a pretty good mastery of the character's 'voices' so even if they don't have Martin's detailed chapters to work on when depicting plot events they probably feel as long as they know the general direction they can handle it on their own.  After all, a LOT of the best dialogue on the show has been wholly original whether it was Davos's speech to the Iron Bank, Margaery/Cersei's barbs at each other, Varys's interactions with Tyrion and Littlefinger, "My father died at King's Landing," Hound/Arya, Olenna's one liners, or the whole new direction they took Sansa in "The Mountain and the Viper," I'd say they have reason to feel confident they can wow the audience even with less source material at hand.

[Pete Martell]

Chase had complete control over it.  HBO isn't Showtime, it doesn't stretch out shows like that.

 

I know he had control, but I could swear there were reports in those last few seasons that he'd originally wanted to end it but then he and HBO made a deal to go on longer. Maybe not, I don't know.

[SeanC]

After all, a LOT of the best dialogue on the show has been wholly original whether it was Davos's speech to the Iron Bank, Margaery/Cersei's barbs at each other, Varys's interactions with Tyrion and Littlefinger, "My father died at King's Landing," Hound/Arya, Olenna's one liners, or the whole new direction they took Sansa in "The Mountain and the Viper," I'd say they have reason to feel confident they can wow the audience even with less source material at hand.

I would never call dialogue one of the show's strengths.  The Varys/Littlefinger dialogues, in particular, were generally bad (and repetitive).  They've fiddled with some of GRRM's dialogue to improve it for actually being said aloud, and come up with some good lines on their own, but the book's dialogue in general is much better.  Virtually none of Littlefinger and Sansa's book dialogue has been adapted on the show, and none of what they replaced it with was nearly as good.

[Domenicholas]

It's going to be crazy after Season 5 when there is practically no difference between the Unsullied and the Bookwalkers; we will know as much as they do by that point!

[Winnief]

 

I would never call dialogue one of the show's strengths.

Oh really?

 

"You love your children.  It's your one redeeming quality.  That and your cheekbones."  Really that whole scene was better on the show than in the books-the family dynamics were so perfect.

 

"Oh seduce away!  It's been so long.  But I think it's rather all for naught...what happens when the non-existent bumps against the decrepit?  A question for the philosophers."   Great exchange there, and Olenna's conversations with Tyrion and Tywin were all wholly original and highlights of the season.

 

"I don't distrust you because you're a woman.  I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."  A Twyin/Cersei moment we never got in the books.

 

"So we have a man who starves himself to death, a man who lets his own brother murder him, and a man who thinks that winning and ruling are the same thing.  What do they all lack?"  The whole Tommen/Tywin talk-again sheer brilliance.

 

"Well if you're a famous smuggler you're not doing it right."

 

"I can't say I've ever met a literate stonemason."

"Have you met many stonemasons my lord." ALL of Tywin/Arya

 

"And a temple is comprised of stones. One stone crumbles and another takes its place.  And the temple holds its form for a thousand years or more.  And that's what the Iron Bank is; a temple."

 

Stannis.  Davos.  Iron Bank.  "nuff said.

 

"You act as if I volunteered to go!  You gave me away remember?  After you bent the knee to Robert Baratheon!  Did you take what was yours then?!?....YOU GAVE ME AWAY!  Your boy-your last boy.  You gave me away like I was some dog you didn't want anymore.  And you curse me now because I've come home!" 

 

"Isn't the Queen's gown magnificent?  The fabric, the embroidery, the metalwork...I've never seen anything like it!"  

 

"Yes sweet girl...from my mother."

 

"So if I wanted to attend the council meeting I'd now have to climb all the stairs in the Tower of the Hand?"

"We could arrange to have you carried."

[Scarlett45]

WinnieF one if my favorites

"The more people you love the weaker you are. You will do all sorts of things you shouldn't, to make them happy, to keep them safe........love no one but your children for in this I know a mother has no choice."

Wait was that in the book??!! I can't remember now! I don't think it was.

Edited July 11, 2014 by Scarlett45

[benteen]

Dialogue is a definite strength of D and D.  They also do the character interactions well.  Brienne and Arya was perfect in the short time that they spoke and Brienne vs The Hound was awesome.  I think Show Tyrion and Jorah together won't disappoint like Book Tyrion and Jorah did.  Well, I think that's more because of Dinklage and Glen but D and D will write them stuff that will make the two of them shine together.  Tyrion and Bronn on the show were even better than they were in the books.

 

HBO confirmed the obvious that Season 5 would mostly be AFFC and ADWD and Season 6 would be the "brave new world."  I would think though we'll be getting some Winds of Winter of Sansa's storyline at least.  Unless they make up something new for her (Robin's tour of the Eryie perhaps?), they have nothing for her and will have to dip into the "future" stuff.  Bran possibly too.  Bran's storyline would be a great opportunity to learn some badly neglected backstory (such as Lyanna Stark) and this would be a good opportunity to explore it.  I would think with Bran in the weirwood, they'll tie his storyline closer to Theon like in the book.  The scene where Theon is praying for instance.  They still might have to pull from the future material in order to give the storyline a big ending for next season.

 

Everyone else has enough stuff to get through Season 5, even Arya.

Edited July 12, 2014 by benteen

[Winnief]

 

HBO confirmed the obvious that Season 5 would mostly be AFFC and ADWD and Season 6 would be the "brave new world."  I would think though we'll be getting some Winds of Winter of Sansa's storyline at least.  Unless they make up something new for her (Robin's tour of the Eryie perhaps?), they have nothing for her and will have to dip into the "future" stuff.  Bran possibly too.  Bran's storyline would be a great opportunity to learn some badly neglected backstory (such as Lyanna Stark) and this would be a good opportunity to explore it.  I would think with Bran in the weirwood, they'll tie his storyline closer to Theon like in the book.  The scene where Theon is praying for instance.  They still might have to pull from the future material in order to give the storyline a big ending for next season.

Agreed.  I think/hope with Sansa the deal is that since she had such a big journey to make in TWOW, D&D decided it made more sense to get a head start on that, and that's why they've sped up her story arc this season.  If she's going to turn into a player that's going to take some development.  

 

I really do believe we'll be getting some of the climaxes ADWD was building to, (but that got cut out,) in Season Five.  The battle of Winterfell, I'm certain about, and the Battle of Mereen seems likely if not as certain.  They certainly will want to have Dany start her trip to Westeros sooner rather than later, (otherwise they'd risk a fan revolt,) and I think Aegon's getting cut out altogther.  After all instead of Tyrion with the Griffs they can have Tyrion/Varys, then Tyrion/Jorah and hopefully by the end of the season Tyrion meeting Dany.  No Qwentyn.  No Fake Arya. No Damphair.  Dany already has a big enough fleet in Mereen so no Victarion. Sam doesn't go to Oldtown and they save themselves the expenses of another set and avoid the whole Citadel plotline and extra characters.    

 

Take out all that and Season Five is set to be much more condensed, fast paced, and has the time and budget to make it to the big stuff at the Wall and in Mereen.  I don't think they'll do any full-battle episodes but do bits here and there from both areas, like in "The Children," where we got Stannis's victory over the Wildlings and the fighting at Bloodraven's.  

[Ffiferoo]

When Variety announced the HBO deal in 2007, the article said GRRM had nearly finished the fifth book but wouldn't complete the seven-book series until 2011. If that was the assumption/progress report when they started developing GOT, they couldn't have guessed how bad the delays would be. It took four years to get the first season on TV and to get ADWD which was "nearly finished" in January 2007. Now it's 2014 and book 6 hasn't been released. If HBO could have seen those release dates back in 2006/2007 it might not have gambled on ASOIAF, but they went ahead with the long pre-production process and now the show is such a huge hit that they can't/don't need to wait for GRRM.

 

I didn't start reading until after the first season had aired, so I wasn't familiar with the timeline here - thanks for these details!  That makes a lot more sense as far as what HBO might have been thinking at the time.  It's too bad that those projected dates ended up being so off, but that does show that the showrunners didn't intend for things to play out this way.  

[SeanC]

"Oh seduce away!  It's been so long.  But I think it's rather all for naught...what happens when the non-existent bumps against the decrepit?  A question for the philosophers."   Great exchange there, and Olenna's conversations with Tyrion and Tywin were all wholly original and highlights of the season.

Both of these scenes were entirely unnecessary, and existed only to give Dianna Rigg scenes, when the screentime was desperately needed in several of the other plots.  Nor did I think the dialogue itself was that impressive.  Particularly the "sword-swallower" line, one of the shows endless tee-hee jokes about how Loras is gay.

 

 

"And a temple is comprised of stones. One stone crumbles and another takes its place.  And the temple holds its form for a thousand years or more.  And that's what the Iron Bank is; a temple."

That line is straight-up bad.  It's trying to be profound or intimidating, but it's just a bad metaphor.  There's a much better description of the Iron Bank in the book that could have been used there.

 

 

"Yes sweet girl...from my mother."

One of the most insulting scenes in the show's history, and emblematic of how terribly they handled Sansa's story in season 3.  So much terrible dialogue there, too, including such highlights as Sansa asking if her family will be coming to her wedding, and an extended sequence about how Sansa doesn't know the word "shit".  The writing of Sansa in season 3 is especially laughable after season 4 where the writers are suddenly claiming that Sansa is in fact very smart (and they suddenly advance her past even where the book version is), after they spent a whole season making her the butt of jokes about how dumb she is.

Edited July 12, 2014 by SeanC

[Holmbo]

It's going to be crazy after Season 5 when there is practically no difference between the Unsullied and the Bookwalkers; we will know as much as they do by that point!

In a way it will be totally turned around with book purists trying desperately to stay away from spoilers while show watchers feel all smug about knowing how the story continues. I'd say spoiler trolls will come to the book message boards but actually I don't think so. It'd be way to much effort for them.

 

I really do believe we'll be getting some of the climaxes ADWD was building to, (but that got cut out,) in Season Five.  The battle of Winterfell, I'm certain about, and the Battle of Mereen seems likely if not as certain.  They certainly will want to have Dany start her trip to Westeros sooner rather than later, (otherwise they'd risk a fan revolt,) and I think Aegon's getting cut out altogther.  After all instead of Tyrion with the Griffs they can have Tyrion/Varys, then Tyrion/Jorah and hopefully by the end of the season Tyrion meeting Dany.  No Qwentyn.  No Fake Arya. No Damphair.  Dany already has a big enough fleet in Mereen so no Victarion. Sam doesn't go to Oldtown and they save themselves the expenses of another set and avoid the whole Citadel plotline and extra characters.    

 

Take out all that and Season Five is set to be much more condensed, fast paced, and has the time and budget to make it to the big stuff at the Wall and in Mereen.  I don't think they'll do any full-battle episodes but do bits here and there from both areas, like in "The Children," where we got Stannis's victory over the Wildlings and the fighting at Bloodraven's.  

I agree about season 5 including some of the yet not published climaxes. I don't understand people that seem to feel season 5 will be uneventful. Fragmented or badly written is a possibility, but not uneventful IMO. I expect some huge changes and I think I would be ok with most things being changed or cut.

I do feel a bit conflicted about Aegon though. Based on the story so far I feel like he really should be cut. He is introduced so late and does things that we want Dany, a character we actually care about, to do. But I'd feel bad about loosing the overarching long time plans of Varys that the show actually hinted at in season 1. I would love if the show could include such a long time plotting. Perhaps they could introduce Aegon but not spend much time on him. Just using him as an off camera character to drive other characters to action where they need to. Then make it clear his not actually Aegon and kill him off.

[Winnief]

 

I do feel a bit conflicted about Aegon though. Based on the story so far I feel like he really should be cut. He is introduced so late and does things that we want Dany, a character we actually care about, to do. But I'd feel bad about loosing the overarching long time plans of Varys that the show actually hinted at in season 1.

 

They might just decide to change Varys's end game to have been Dany all along.  Frankly, it would seem like a smarter move at this point to ViewersOnly on Varys's part.  It will be interesting to see if I'm right and whether the Griff's get included in the full casting list when it comes out or not.  If they're not then that's kind of a book spoiler on its own, because it shows that ultimately Aegon wasn't really that important to the story arc after all.  Kinda like them cutting out LSH shows D&D saw her as expendable-which means she's ultimately not responsible for make or break events however cool a concept it was.  The fact they kept Qyborn and the mountain suggests that something big IS going to happen there.

[Avaleigh]

Every way I turn it in my head I can't see any reason to cut Quentyn or Aegon. Quentyn would be so easy to include and we really wouldn't need him for more than two episodes. He's the only person from Westeros apart from Jorah and Barristan to get an impression of Dany, plus his death by dragon is a way to make Dany's presence in Westeros directly felt even though she isn't there yet. Dorne is going to be a big player next year and I like the idea of the Martells having their hands in so many pies. Take away Quentyn and Aegon though and we we're basically down to the Arianne tries to crown Myrcella and Myrcella's romance with Trystane with some sort of Jaime interlude to pad things out.. I'm definitely glad that Myrcella's story will be fleshed out but I think the Aegon/Arianne situation (assuming it happens) sounds like a sideplot worth keeping. I also see JonCon as a way the show might give us info about Rhaegar.

The main reason I want them to keep Aegon is for Varys. I'll be disappointed if show!Varys has been all about Dany all this time because I don't feel they've done much to indicate or set that up. Not in an obvious way but surely at least bookreaders should have picked up on something. Why would Varys harp on the dragons during a small council meeting so that Tywin Lannister might actually do something about them? What if Varys's warnings had lead to Tywin hiring a Faceless Man? I just haven't got the vibe that Varys has been helping Dany all this time as he supposedly has been for Aegon. Dany is a wildcard that nobody initially banked on not even Jorah or Illyrio. For Varys to have secretly been all about her all this time just doesn't work for me after four season of without so much as a hint.

One last thing regarding keeping Aegon. I'm not sure why but I also feel like for the show he could end up indirectly giving viewers clues into Jon Snow's parentage. Not for Jon Snow but so that there's some other way apart from the Reeds to get viewers thinking about the idea. It would of course mean changes for JonCon but I still think they could maybe have him drop some clues without him being any the wiser that he's actually doing so because of his own complicated feelings for Rhaegar. I can see Tyrion easily putting two and two together under the right circumstances.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Avaleigh

[John Potts]

I really can't see them including Quentyn. Even while reading ADwD  I thought, "Well that was all completely pointless!" (once he died, that is). Given the cuts they've already made, I can't see him making it to screen. Of course, there's a lot more Stan the Man in Book 5, so maybe D&D will sacrifice his scenes instead.