Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[ByTor]

OK...to counter the "Debra is hot" talk, there was the time that poor Debra couldn't attract any men in the grocery store when she went there ringless. Even Jimmy told her to leave him alone! I would consider this one of my favorite ELR moments...Patricia Heaton did the best facial expressions, especially when she smacked the one guy in the face as she was seductively trying to tear a plastic produce bag from the roll.

Edited August 5, 2015 by ByTor

[CherryAmes]

Another episode that I just saw that contradicts the "Debra is chronically late" episode is Robert's wedding where Raymond has apparently spent most of the morning in his underpants while Debra has gotten not only herself but 3 kids cleaned up and dressed all ready to leave for the wedding and she then has to help Ray get his pants on.  Ah it's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but the Debra being late episode is just so "hey guys, gotta love the ladies, always primping and preening and never ready to go amiright?" As Frank would say "I hate that."

[ShadowSixx]

OK...to counter the "Debra is hot" talk, there was the time that poor Debra couldn't attract any men in the grocery store when she went there ringless. Even Jimmy told her to leave him alone! I would consider this one of my favorite ELR moments...Patricia Heaton did the best facial expressions, especially when she smacked the one guy in the face as she was seductively trying to tear a plastic produce bag from the roll.

 

I LMAO when Debra tried to grab a piece of fruit in front of a guy and he just walked off without noticing and the look on Debra's face was just too funny, but I loved when Ray backed up and knocked a woman completely down on the ground lol.

[ByTor]

I LMAO when Debra tried to grab a piece of fruit in front of a guy and he just walked off without noticing and the look on Debra's face was just too funny, but I loved when Ray backed up and knocked a woman completely down on the ground lol.

And then combine it with that terrible elevator music...the same music they played in the bank when Ray & Robert were kicking the ATM...you have pure comedy gold!

[Inquisitionist]

Which episodes have the ATM kicking scene and Debra trying to be hot in the grocery store?  Titles, or even just the seasons they were on would help.  Thanks!

[Guest]

Which episodes have the ATM kicking scene

 

The Checkbook Season 2

[ByTor]

Which episodes have the ATM kicking scene and Debra trying to be hot in the grocery store?  Titles, or even just the seasons they were on would help.  Thanks!

Ray's Ring, Season 6 Episode 4. The description: "It's not bad enough that he's lost his ring while away from home, but then an attractive woman at the airport propositions him, thinking that he is single. When Debra learns what happened, she decides to take matters into her own hands and show Ray what it would be like if she pretended to be single-but her plan has disastrous results."

[Suzanne Foxton]

I think Debra's behaviour can be both explained and excused by her Crowning Moment of Awesome speech from the season 6 opener "The Angry Family:"

"Eileen, you have no idea what I have to put up with. When I got married I didn't just get a husband. I got an entire freak show that put up their tent right across the street. And that would be fine if they stayed there. But every day, *every* day. They drop a truckload of their insane family drek into my lap. How would you like to sit through two people in their sixties fighting over who invented the lawn? The lawn! And then the brother! [She starts imitating Robert] 'I live in an apartment. I don't even have a lawn. Raymond has a lawn.' [as herself again] But you can't blame him when you see who the mother is. She has this sick hold on the both of them! And the father is about as disgusting a creature as God has ever dropped on this planet. So no wonder the kid writes stories! I should be writing stories! My life is a gothic novel. And until you have lived in that house with all of them in there with you, day after day, week after week, year after friggin' year, then you are in no position to judge me!"

She is a saint who has been reduced to a harpy by severely extenuating circumstances. Enough said.

[readster]

3 hours ago, Suzanne Foxton said:

I think Debra's behaviour can be both explained and excused by her Crowning Moment of Awesome speech from the season 6 opener "The Angry Family:"

"Eileen, you have no idea what I have to put up with. When I got married I didn't just get a husband. I got an entire freak show that put up their tent right across the street. And that would be fine if they stayed there. But every day, *every* day. They drop a truckload of their insane family drek into my lap. How would you like to sit through two people in their sixties fighting over who invented the lawn? The lawn! And then the brother! [She starts imitating Robert] 'I live in an apartment. I don't even have a lawn. Raymond has a lawn.' [as herself again] But you can't blame him when you see who the mother is. She has this sick hold on the both of them! And the father is about as disgusting a creature as God has ever dropped on this planet. So no wonder the kid writes stories! I should be writing stories! My life is a gothic novel. And until you have lived in that house with all of them in there with you, day after day, week after week, year after friggin' year, then you are in no position to judge me!"

She is a saint who has been reduced to a harpy by severely extenuating circumstances. Enough said.

I have to agree, I remember that well and I completely got Debra's POV big time and why everything is crazy. I think the problem is, she acknowledged all of this but still fell into some horrible ways she thought of things. I can think of Ally being the bully on the bus, her thinking Ray just liked going to work to avoid being with his family, having this constant reasoning to just make his mother happy (my wife is like that with her dad and he has had some warped views), ect. It was by the last two years of the show, I just couldn't like anyone, I think Family Guy did it perfectly with their parody of the show: "After 9 years, I just don't care anymore!" "Maybe it be less if you didn't act like a bitch all the time the last few years." 

[zxy556575]

Debra was a  totally different person in the flashback episodes; it was the Barones who hardened her. She reacted to it by becoming them, but I could understand her frustrations and why she changed.

What was never clear to me was why she loved Ray in the first place. His personality when they first met was not significantly different (or better) than it was 10-15 years later. Debra doesn't respect him -- as a person, a husband, a father, a brother and especially not as a son. She isn't interested in his work and wouldn't take 5 minutes a day to read his columns. She doesn't even laugh much at his jokes any more. She does appreciate him as a provider.

Edited June 9, 2016 by lordonia

[qtpye]

I have a confession.  I like tall olive skinned men with big noses, so I always thought Ray was rather good looking.  However, his personality was a whole different story. 

Debra was an attractive woman, but I agree it was her relatively cultured and educated background that made her out Ray's league initially, rather then her looks.

Also, when this show was on, many other sitcoms had "a sloppy not great looking husband with hot/shrewish wife" dynamic.  I think they tried to at first put this show into that slot, but to give it the show some credit, it was more complex then that.

I think PH has one of the best plastic surgeons, as if I had not seen her before, I would think she looked completely natural.

I do remember feeling a little sorry for the actress who played Amy.  When she first came on, people went on and on about how awful looking she was and how she would never have been cast, if she had not been married to one of the producers/writers.  Many people thought she was not good looking enough for Robert, particularly after he dated that beautiful woman in Italy.

Amy later became a great character...her wedding dance with Robert was one of the best scenes in the series.

[CherryAmes]

9 hours ago, Suzanne Foxton said:

 

She is a saint who has been reduced to a harpy by severely extenuating circumstances. Enough said.

Agreed.  All the characters changed as the years went by, none got better, but I always thought Debra had the most reason to change.  She went into her marriage prepared to love Ray's family and in the flashbacks we see that she really appreciated the positives about the Barones.  By the end of the series she'd had enough and if she hadn't gotten harder and meaner she'd have come off as being another Pat - sad and beaten down and needing to lie down after a trip to the grocery store!

[Suzanne Foxton]

I guess we all need to remember the Rule of Funny. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny) Anything goes, if it gets a laugh - including cruelty and lack of character growth. It is a sitCOM after all!  I forgive the writers for making Debra a bit of a harpy especially as time goes on - that show gave me so many laughs it has doubtless added years to my lifespan. Let's also not forget that Marie was funniest when she was being the most outrageously cruel or critical. It's just the way this show ran - it was the constant conflict transposed with underlying loyalty and love - this was the main dynamic of the show. I guess Debra NEEDED to be a harpy from time to time to serve the storyline. In any case - as far as I'm concerned, all is forgiven! 

[Homily]

I feel the same way, Suzanne and CherryAmes.  Debra needed to change because everyone else changed too!  Watching the earlier episodes Marie is meddlesome but she isn't cruel, and Ray is clueless but he does try to pitch in and even sticks up for Debra now and then.  Later seasons that all changed and to be perfectly honest the show got funnier.  It wouldn't have lasted for 9 seasons and went out on the high note that it did if the writers had been listening to must of us I suspect!!

Edited June 10, 2016 by Homily

[qtpye]

In the Thanksgiving where Debra makes fish, Marie is still petty, but at the end of the episode apologizes and even says Debra cooks fish better then she does.

No way later seasons Marie would ever do that.

[CherryAmes]

That's a good example of the way they messed with Debra.  In the first season or two she is a good cook, even better than Marie at least where making fish is concerned.  Flash forward a few years and we've got the dead hamster episode where Marie is snarky about the fish sticks in the freezer and says (something like) "tomorrow I'll teach Debra how to cook a fish".  I think it would have been so much better to have kept it that Debra was perfectly fine as a cook and housekeeper and mother and that Marie was the one with ridiculous standards, instead they decided it would be funnier to have Debra make lopsided cakes and meatloaf that tastes like it's made of horsemeat.

[readster]

1 hour ago, CherryAmes said:

That's a good example of the way they messed with Debra.  In the first season or two she is a good cook, even better than Marie at least where making fish is concerned.  Flash forward a few years and we've got the dead hamster episode where Marie is snarky about the fish sticks in the freezer and says (something like) "tomorrow I'll teach Debra how to cook a fish".  I think it would have been so much better to have kept it that Debra was perfectly fine as a cook and housekeeper and mother and that Marie was the one with ridiculous standards, instead they decided it would be funnier to have Debra make lopsided cakes and meatloaf that tastes like it's made of horsemeat.

Let's not forget where even the kids said she couldn't make Mac and Cheese. They should have just kept it that Debra could cook various items like: Chicken, Fish, Soup, Italian dishes and maybe a few odds and ends, but then failed else where. It was like Jill on Home Improvement that showed that her problem was when she didn't follow the recipe, it taste like crap. Yet, when she did, it was always good. Yet, it was funny to have a bad cook. 

[ByTor]

I don't remember Debra ever being characterized as a good cook.  From what I recall, she was actually what @readster mentioned, not very good but did make some good things.  At Thanksgiving people liked her fish, she always got compliments on the lemon chicken, and her braciole was excellent.  Besides that, I thought she was known to be pretty bad in the kitchen.

[FormerMod-a1]

I always thought Debra wasn't good compared to Marie, but that her food wasn't crap either.  I just took it to be she cooked healthier (i.e. skinless chicken breasts) or quickly made foods, and also sometime (maybe often) used convenience foods so compared to Marie's foods with butter and oil and fattier meats and all home cooked, the comparison wasn't as favorable.  Take the cakes, for example, Marie took the time to make from scratch and go for perfection in appearance while Debra's was probably a box mix and she left it a little lopsided.  I'm sure lopsided box cake tasted good, we've all eaten then, but Marie's would be a bit better.  And there's also the fact that Marie's cooking is what everyone else was used to, growing up with it.

[CherryAmes]

In the first season Debra is portrayed as more than competent in the kitchen.  She wasn't up to the Marie Barone gold standard and she took the kind of shortcuts most of us viewers probably take (cookies from a log??!  the horror)**  but Ray seemed perfectly content with her cooking and they certainly never played down her cooking skills for laughs.  There is the time she's making French toast for the family for instance, they're all enjoying it and there is no need to make any nasty remarks or have Marie come over to tell her how she's doing it wrong.  Even in the infamous meatballs episode Marie acknowledges that now that Debra has her recipes she will be able to cook like her -- there is no way this would have been said in later seasons.  For that matter a few seasons later and she can't even make an omelet without getting egg shell in it.  I never minded that they had set up Marie to be the paragon of the cooking range but they never started off having Debra as a total doofus - somewhere along the line they figured there were more chuckles to be had out of turning Debra into America's Worst Cook.  Ugh.

 

**Speaking of which my husband noticed a bit of a blooper in the later season episode with Amy's "fondue date night".  They are in Frank and Marie's house and Amy is upset and we see her in the kitchen eating cookie dough raw from a log.  In Marie's kitchen???  I don't think so!!!!

Edited June 11, 2016 by CherryAmes

[Snow Apple]

I remember everyone liking her lemon chicken in the early seasons, but in later seasons they act like it was never any good.

[msani19]

I think in the later seasons it wasn't that the lemon chicken wasn't good anymore. It was more like they were sick of it by then. She probably made it weekly, maybe more than once a week. For years.

i know it wouldn't be tv funny but I'd have lost it at Marie and the rest of the intrusive family. I think she was a normal person ( I don't know that I'd go as far as Saint) who was driven quite literally insane by the Barones. 

[zxy556575]

As the series went on, Debra couldn't even make a sandwich!

Although I did laugh when Ray made a deal in the episode where he and Debra try to be nicer to each other: "I throw this out... and you can call me an idiot."

[readster]

1 hour ago, lordonia said:

As the series went on, Debra couldn't even make a sandwich!

Although I did laugh when Ray made a deal in the episode where he and Debra try to be nicer to each other: "I throw this out... and you can call me an idiot."

Oh I remember that, in fact, it was like Debra couldn't even shop anymore. The sandwich was made out of stale bread and the lettuce apparently had started to brown. It be one thing if she said she saw it half off and didn't think twice about buying it, but it was like Debra was blind about what to buy her family decent groceries either. I also remember one point early on that Robert mentioned he was going to make a cake and from the cabinet. I was like: "A box of cake mix?" "In Marie's house?" "Never!" 

[Homily]

Quote

Even in the infamous meatballs episode Marie acknowledges that now that Debra has her recipes she will be able to cook like her -- there is no way this would have been said in later seasons. 

Well for that matter not much later in the series. I think the "Debra made something good" episode Marie gets all nasty about anyone having to use a recipe for cooking.  "Real cooks don't need recipes".  The writers apparently forgot all about the fistful of recipes she passed on to Debra at the end of the meatball episode!  But like we've been saying this isn't just a Debra is now a crappy cook character evolution, this is also a Marie is a complete and total bitch with few redeeming features character development!

[ByTor]

21 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

I remember everyone liking her lemon chicken in the early seasons, but in later seasons they act like it was never any good.

The woman who ate flies liked it :)

[BogoGog24]

Frank pointed out in a later episode "Blabbermouths" that occasionally Marie would use store bought sauce. She probably used store bought or processed ingredients from time to time like everyone does and just never admitted it, hence why there is a log of cookie dough or a box of cake mix in her kitchen. Perhaps she thought if she was in a rush and didn't have time to make it from scratch it would be ok to use just like if she didn't have time to make her own sauce, it was ok to use sauce from a jar. 

[qtpye]

On 6/12/2016 at 9:49 AM, Homily said:

Well for that matter not much later in the series. I think the "Debra made something good" episode Marie gets all nasty about anyone having to use a recipe for cooking.  "Real cooks don't need recipes".  The writers apparently forgot all about the fistful of recipes she passed on to Debra at the end of the meatball episode!  But like we've been saying this isn't just a Debra is now a crappy cook character evolution, this is also a Marie is a complete and total bitch with few redeeming features character development!

Good lord...most women are not that possessive about their cooking.  It's like the writer's could not figure out what the heck else women would be interested in.

I mean Marie seemed like a psycho when Debra cooked good braciole, like Debra was trying to steal Frank.

Speaking of which, I always felt like Frank liked Debra (the daughter he never had) and Marie kind of resented this.  Though later seasons Marie resented everything.

Edited June 15, 2016 by qtpye

[readster]

I do remember at one point that many people questioned about Debra still being a stay at home mom when the kids were way out of the house and even starting to do after school activities. The writers did one episode where she tried to go back to work, but that she was demanding and bitchy about things not being done her way. When she hadn't worked it almost seven years and while Marie did defend Debra, it later went on that if Debra thought about having life outside of the family, it was the worst thing in the world. Even when Debra made a big deal about Ray just playing around at work and not wanting to be home with the family. Even then, it was along the lines of she acted like he could just write one article or news piece in 10 minutes and then expected him to pick up the kids, clean the house, ect. I think the most realistic portrayal was when Michael didn't want to go to school because he was embarrassed about calling his teacher "mommy" and Ray had to work at home while Debra was getting things together for a school function. Ray did his job in his office, talked to Michael and even played Nintendo later on. Both earlier and later season's Ray would have never even done that. Remember, he had to whine how things were not the way he wanted it and that he loved going golfing more and taping football games over wedding tapes. Many times, I do wish they would have had Debra going back to work and adjusting to her kids older and how she had it pretty good instead of Marie constantly bitching about how Debra didn't know how to be a mom or cook.

[CherryAmes]

Quote

Good lord...most women are not that possessive about their cooking.  It's like the writer's could not figure out what the heck else women would be interested in.

In a lot of ways ELR was a 50s, maybe early '60s sitcoms - this was a positive in the sense that I love '50s and early '60s sitcoms and ELR more than held it's own with the best of them.  On the other hand it was a big negative when it came to the way it portrayed men and women and their interests and role in life.  It was obvious that women were meant to stay home and look after their family and their house - if they had outside interests it was ok as long as it was something "feminine" like reading or gardening or doing volunteer work.  Women weren't supposed to be interested in sports, in any way.  Not watching it and certainly not participating in it.  There were very strong and clear lines drawn between what guys did and what the gals were allowed to do.  So annoying.

Quote

.Many times, I do wish they would have had Debra going back to work and adjusting to her kids older and how she had it pretty good instead of Marie constantly bitching about how Debra didn't know how to be a mom or cook.

Absolutely agree and I think in the real world that's what would have happened.  In ELR world though women stayed home and in the last few years of the series so, for the most part, did the men.  I can understand that in the sense that it was a sitcom based around family life not set in an office or a bar or whatever but in the early years of the show they did show Ray at work and featured Robert's partner Judy and had a few work related episodes for both guys.  They could have had an episode or two talking about Debra's new job and then she could have been home all the time just like Ray and Robert and Amy (whose job seemed to have been forgotten in the last season).

Edited June 15, 2016 by CherryAmes

[qtpye]

34 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

In a lot of ways ELR was a 50s, maybe early '60s sitcoms - this was a positive in the sense that I love '50s and early '60s sitcoms and ELR more than held it's own with the best of them.  On the other hand it was a big negative when it came to the way it portrayed men and women and their interests and role in life.  It was obvious that women were meant to stay home and look after their family and their house - if they had outside interests it was ok as long as it was something "feminine" like reading or gardening or doing volunteer work.  Women weren't supposed to be interested in sports, in any way.  Not watching it and certainly not participating in it.  There were very strong and clear lines drawn between what guys did and what the gals were allowed to do.  So annoying.

I remember Debra's mother being portrayed as odd, because she did not want to spend all her time fussing over her grandchildren.  It was seen as weird that she had other interests rather then obsessing about her family.  Debra even screams that she wishes she was more like Marie.

I remember being a kid and thinking how I would find Debra's mom so cool, when I became older.  I would love to talk to her about Pashminas (sp?), museums, and trips to Viet Nam.  I would probably think of her as the "cool" grandmother.

I would probably hate the way Marie would try to obsess over me and treat me like a baby, but unlike Ray, I loved being independent as an older child. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by qtpye

[CherryAmes]

Given the way the kids behaved around Marie in the last season or two of ELR I think they agreed with you Qtpye!  I'm betting they loved going to visit "Connecticut Grandma" and avoided being around Marie as much as possible. 

[ByTor]

11 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

They could have had an episode or two talking about Debra's new job and then she could have been home all the time just like Ray and Robert and Amy (whose job seemed to have been forgotten in the last season).

Thanks for bringing that up about Amy, I was starting to think that maybe I missed some mentions of her still having a job.

Edited June 16, 2016 by ByTor

[Homily]

Yeah the last time I remember they even mentioned Amy having a job was an episode in season 8 when Robert comes over and mooches a meal at Ray and Debra's because Amy is working late.  As far as I can remember from that point on it's like Amy isn't working at all.  But then as others have pointed out that's kinda true of Ray and Robert as well. 

[CherryAmes]

Quote

I would probably hate the way Marie would try to obsess over me and treat me like a baby, but unlike Ray, I loved being independent as an older child. 

She probably would do that with the boys but you could already see her starting to treat Allie the way she treats Debra.  At least I felt that way based on the episode where Allie is helping out around the house and is making grilled cheese and Marie bustles over and starts telling her how to do it properly.  Typical Ray of course he doesn't say anything but Frank speaks up and tells Marie to leave Allie alone.  Which was nice :).  I'm betting as Allie got older that Marie would have kept on with the critical comments and the "oh here dear let me show you the right way to do that" crap.

[readster]

38 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

She probably would do that with the boys but you could already see her starting to treat Allie the way she treats Debra.  At least I felt that way based on the episode where Allie is helping out around the house and is making grilled cheese and Marie bustles over and starts telling her how to do it properly.  Typical Ray of course he doesn't say anything but Frank speaks up and tells Marie to leave Allie alone.  Which was nice :).  I'm betting as Allie got older that Marie would have kept on with the critical comments and the "oh here dear let me show you the right way to do that" crap.

I agree and I was very happy with Frank speaking up on that and I actually didn't have a problem with Ray at first not saying anything about it. I mean, it was his daughter and Marie's grand daughter. He probably at first thought: "Let grandma give you some pointers." It was when Marie went on and on that Ray failed as a dad not saying: "It's my daughter, mom!" "Let her be!" It was shocking that Marie had to be so critical of both Debra and then later her own grand daughter. She was so on about Amy being "the golden girl" then at the wedding and from then on, she was just as critical on Amy, not as much but the last couple of seasons, she was starting to do the same with Amy, but she didn't criticize her cooking. Marie was very mean at anyone who dared to threaten her place as Ray's mom and to a much lesser extent, Robert.

[ByTor]

15 hours ago, Homily said:

Yeah the last time I remember they even mentioned Amy having a job was an episode in season 8 when Robert comes over and mooches a meal at Ray and Debra's because Amy is working late.  As far as I can remember from that point on it's like Amy isn't working at all.  But then as others have pointed out that's kinda true of Ray and Robert as well. 

Then I DID miss a mention!  The last time I remembered Amy talking about her job was in the ":meant to be" episode, when Amy told Robert that she'd be in the office if he wanted to send flowers after his announcement that he & JoAnn talked about getting back together.

[readster]

58 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Then I DID miss a mention!  The last time I remembered Amy talking about her job was in the ":meant to be" episode, when Amy told Robert that she'd be in the office if he wanted to send flowers after his announcement that he & JoAnn talked about getting back together.

I do remember in an interview in the final season and the producers were asked if Amy was still working in which they did confirm it. They said there was no reason for Amy to be a stay at home wife since her and Robert didn't have kids and even at the time, there was no plans of changing that either. They just didn't see it that important to their stories to talk about her job on a regular basis. Which of course was odd as you would think that both Robert and Amy could have gotten out of Marie and Frank's house to at least get a new apartment a few months after everything went down with the retirement home. However, they acted like Frank and Marie kept the 11K for the house and were like: "You'll live with us and that's final." 

[ShadowSixx]

Marie was just insufferable, plus her being upset because Debra made good braciole and telling Debra that Debra is trying to destroy her because she made braciole. Which I don't understand why Marie was being critical of Debra being a good cook when Marie gave Debra most of her recipes during the "Marie's Meatballs" episode. Another thing is why from then on did Debra not become a better cook when she had some of Marie's recipes??

Debra knows that everytime she makes something Ray wants to throw it away or makes a face even though Ray is no better because when he cooked he almost burned down the kitchen.  

[readster]

19 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Marie was just insufferable, plus her being upset because Debra made good braciole and telling Debra that Debra is trying to destroy her because she made braciole. Which I don't understand why Marie was being critical of Debra being a good cook when Marie gave Debra most of her recipes during the "Marie's Meatballs" episode. Another thing is why from then on did Debra not become a better cook when she had some of Marie's recipes??

Debra knows that everytime she makes something Ray wants to throw it away or makes a face even though Ray is no better because when he cooked he almost burned down the kitchen.  

Yeah, it was just like on Home Improvement. How many times did Tim and the boys hate Jill's cooking, even said it to her face, other people said it was horrible. They went even as far as Jill admitting she got it from her father because he was a horrible cook. Yet, many times she used a recipe book and everyone loved her cooking. So, why didn't she just do that and break the circle? Here with Debra it was the same old thing, even the way the kids starting going: "Oh God, mom is still cooking!" So, Debra can make something complicated like braciole that everyone is amazed by. Made lemon chicken great, which is pretty simple. Yet, she would make mac and cheese and everyone went: "What the hell is this?" This didn't clue her in that her food sucked. Plus, when she found out that Ray had told people at work how bad her food was, she got pissed off at him then? It wasn't like it was a big secret? I also doubt that Marie sabotaged all of Debra's spices and ingredients even with her being able to enter and exit the house as she pleased. Making all of Debra's food horrible. So, then how could she never had problems with braciole, lemon chicken and I believe one time she made a chocolate cake that Robert just loved. If Marie was so ingenious with changing labels and so forth, how did she miss those?

[Homily]

Quote

 However, they acted like Frank and Marie kept the 11K for the house and were like: "You'll live with us and that's final." 

It was $26.000 "for a HOUSE" and I think the writers just completely forgot about it and hoped the viewers would too.  If Robert and Amy had actually bought the house they would have been the legal owners and even if they were willing to give the house back there would have been paperwork etc involved and I guess the writers just didn't want to go there.   Which is fair enough but a throwaway line to indicate that they'd never actually followed through on the sale to that point would have been nice for those of us who care about these kinds of things!!

Anyway if we assume that Robert and Amy actually had bought the house but were prepared to walk away from it then either Marie and Frank kept the money (which is unlikely considering Marie refused to even take rent from Robert all those years) or they gave the money back so Robert and Amy either had $26,000 in the bank or they had borrowed it and turned around and paid back the bank which left them penniless.  So hard to believe that two people in their 40s who have good jobs would have no money.  But of course ELR spent 9 years telling us Robert was poor and Ray was rich.  Which is a rant for another day :).

Edited June 18, 2016 by Homily

[CherryAmes]

Quote

It was $26.000 "for a HOUSE" and I think the writers just completely forgot about it and hoped the viewers would too.

What the writers also hoped the viewers would forget was that at one time Frank was a real estate agent so even if Marie didn't know or care about the contemporary value of their house it's hard to believe Frank wouldn't have known!  Aside from which neither Marie or Frank were ever portrayed as being stupid people.  The idea that they would sell their house for what they paid for it was funny, sure, but also pretty unbelievable!!

[readster]

7 hours ago, CherryAmes said:

What the writers also hoped the viewers would forget was that at one time Frank was a real estate agent so even if Marie didn't know or care about the contemporary value of their house it's hard to believe Frank wouldn't have known!  Aside from which neither Marie or Frank were ever portrayed as being stupid people.  The idea that they would sell their house for what they paid for it was funny, sure, but also pretty unbelievable!!

Especially at that time, you know how much that house would have been worth?

[Homily]

I remember thinking at the time that Frank and Marie must have bought their house around the same time my parents did - circa 1958-60 as they were living in the house right after they got married.  I always wondered if that was a lot of money to pay for a house at that time because in 2005 when that episode is set a house like Marie and Frank's had to be going for something like $400,000.  Robert was getting quite the deal!

Edited June 28, 2016 by Homily

[Moose135]

1 hour ago, Homily said:

I remember thinking at the time that Frank and Marie must have bought their house around the same time my parents did - circa 1958-60 as they were living in the house right after they got married.  I always wondered if that was a lot of money to pay for a house at that time because in 2005 when that episode is set a house like Marie and Frank's had to be going for something like $400,000.  Robert was getting quite the deal!

My parents bought their house (where I grew up and where they still live) just a few towns away on Long Island in 1959.  Nothing big or fancy, and they paid in the mid-to-upper 20s for it, so it's in the ballpark with the Barone's house.

[Homily]

Thanks, Moose.  I wasn't sure since I'm from Montreal and in 1960 my parents built a house for about $6,000.  I was pretty sure a house on Long Island though would have been going for more than a house in a suburb of Montreal!

[NutMeg]

On 6/9/2016 at 8:02 PM, Suzanne Foxton said:

I think Debra's behaviour can be both explained and excused by her Crowning Moment of Awesome speech from the season 6 opener "The Angry Family:"

"Eileen, you have no idea what I have to put up with. When I got married I didn't just get a husband. I got an entire freak show that put up their tent right across the street. And that would be fine if they stayed there. But every day, *every* day. They drop a truckload of their insane family drek into my lap. How would you like to sit through two people in their sixties fighting over who invented the lawn? The lawn! And then the brother! [She starts imitating Robert] 'I live in an apartment. I don't even have a lawn. Raymond has a lawn.' [as herself again] But you can't blame him when you see who the mother is. She has this sick hold on the both of them! And the father is about as disgusting a creature as God has ever dropped on this planet. So no wonder the kid writes stories! I should be writing stories! My life is a gothic novel. And until you have lived in that house with all of them in there with you, day after day, week after week, year after friggin' year, then you are in no position to judge me!"

She is a saint who has been reduced to a harpy by severely extenuating circumstances. Enough said.

Well, let's say she has become quite the martyr and should have put her foot down like way back then. Sure, Marie and Frank were *interesting" characters, but really, I would maybe have kept on watching if we had alternated between households, or some such. As it were, I found this show one of the most depressing on TV, and increasingly so as the seaasons went on (I bailed, but still randomly caugh an episode and was appalled at the lack of any character growth in ANYONE), and I'm still puzzled that it's classified under comedy. Never want to be them, never want to know them, hopefully never want to see such dynamics ever again.  

For the record? I think Debra would have been a much happier and efficient mother and wife without having to deal with Marie on a daily basis, and I wish she had had someone in her life to tell her so. 

[ByTor]

I know it's been said lots of times that Debra should just lock her doors; I always think of this when I see that sex talk episode (the one where Marie says she & Frank have sex once a year "on average").  Marie walks in on Debra asleep on the sofa with a "how to talk to your kids about sex" book on her chest, sneaks back out & rings the doorbell, waking Debra up.  I love Debra's cover that she was upstairs folding laundry, but I always wonder why Debra didn't think something was up.  Marie & doorbell just don't add up to anything good! :)

[Homily]

In the real world Debra and Ray would have moved away long ago, in sitcom land where the basic premise of the show is living across the street from intrusive parents moving away wasn't really an option!  

1 hour ago, ByTor said:

I love Debra's cover that she was upstairs folding laundry, but I always wonder why Debra didn't think something was up.  Marie & doorbell just don't add up to anything good! :)

Heh, I always think that when I see this episode as well.  But on the subject of intrusive - how dare Debra and Ray go over to Frank and Marie's house to cross examine them about their sex life???  Wow.  I mean sure I can see that they were wondering which version was the right one but to the extent that they'd go over and actually demand an answer?  Wow, so wrong on so many levels.  But damn funny :).

[qtpye]

More then that...why the heck did Marie lie about never having sex?  Is it because in her backwards thinking mind "good women do not like sex".  This would be somewhat understandable, but I hope she was not trying to sabotage Debra and Ray's sex life, because that is beyond icky.