S11.E09: O Brother Where Art Thou?

[Demented Daisy]

Right now I'm at The Bad Seed and it's a bit confusing.

 

Grown Darkness: You look confused. Troubled.

 

Young Amara: God did all of this after he locked me away. I didn't know it was so much.

 

Grown Darkness: All for his own ego. And no matter what he made, that doesn't excuse what he did to us.

 

Young Amara: I know.

 

Grown Darkness: Amara... You must stay fixed on our purpose. Even we cannot undo what's already done. But as you grow and become stronger, your true destiny will become clear to you. I am what you are becoming. And we are mightier than God.

 

 

A few minutes later, when she and Crowley are talking about how God created everything:

 

Crowley: That's God for you. Not really thought out. The whole big bang thing? More of a big bust. I mean, boom, bang, stars, evolution, Taylor Swift. I'm guessing you'd have done things differently.

 

Young Amara: I sure will. I've had a lot of time to think it through.

 

 

So, she can't undo everything, but it sounds like she wants to rebuild.  How Amara can do that without destroying everything that came before it....  Well, I assume that's why she didn't answer Crowley when he asked what she had in mind.

 

Back to my research.  :-)

[Demented Daisy]

From this episode:

 

Lucifer: Well, I did help Dad seal up the Darkness all those years ago. She's quite a force, determined to take over everything, even back then. Prone to tantrums, I can see why Pops is laying low.

 

 

Is Lucifer lying about Amara?  Possible.  

 

Amara said that her issue was with God, not His creation.  That the only reason she killed was because He didn't answer when she called.  Sounds like a child throwing a temper tantrum to me.  ;-)

It sounds like she wants to absorb all of humanity.  Keep their souls inside her, where they can live forever.  But they're keeping it deliberately vague.

[DittyDotDot]

Since (in SPN universe) God made the tree "God and his shiny red apples" (which turned out to be a quince, per Crowley)...then God actually offered up the choice and the means for evil to enter the world (Tree of Knowledge). Lucifer (which may or maynot have been Amara influenced.... he didn't seem suddenly repentent post release of the Mark) talked the woman into it, but she choose.

 

Yes, technically, it is a choice, of course. But a choice where the outcome is kind of obvious, if you ask me. It's like putting a piece of cake in front of a child and telling them not to touch it because you said so. I think we all know how that's going to end. To me, that's not so much a choice as much as being a set up for failure.

 

But, what I was really trying to get at was: God wasn't really offering Adam and Eve a choice because, IMO, it didn't occur to Adam and Eve they could actually eat the poisoned fruit until Lucifer put the suggestion to them. That was the original "sin" introduced into God's creation, the idea humanity could act against God's wishes. What SPN God gave humanity wasn't free will, IMO, but reason (order) and it was Amara, working through Lucifer, who gave humanity free will (chaos). In essence, humanity was really created by both God and Amara, God just took all the credit, IMO.

 

I guess it does stand to reason why Amara might be bitter. I might suggest she try to temper that bitterness with some delicious soothing honey rather than more bitterness, but hey, that's probably just me. ;)

Edited December 11, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

So, she can't undo everything, but it sounds like she wants to rebuild.  How Amara can do that without destroying everything that came before it.... Well, I assume that's why she didn't answer Crowley when he asked what she had in mind.

 

I'm guessing Amara can't actually destroy God without destroying herself. I think that's what they're going for anyway. You can't have chaos without order. I'm guessing killing one will end up being the end to the other, leaving the earth to be inherited by humanity.

Edited December 11, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Mertensia:  Me being bothered, annoyed and confused  =/=  me being angry. I do have many other things I AM angry WRT to Dean's SL thus far this season but the discussion with him and Amara about God's will, God's rules is not one of them.

 

SueB, I get what you mean in your TL;DR post (which I did read in full :). It goes along with Awesome's interpretation that Dean was being a bit snarky in that conversation. I agree that maybe the editing made this odd. I'll noodle on this more.

 

A slight change of subject for just a moment.

 

Something I noticed with Sam in this episode was his clothing. He was wearing a red and black plaid shirt and a brown and black plaid shirt, which both looked a little too snug. The shirt was pulling at the buttons in the front.  It really jumped out at me because Sam typically wears looser fitting shirts. And then I thought...wait, those look like Dean's shirts.  I think Sam was wearing Dean's shirts. Correct me if I'm wrong but they don't generally wear each others clothing do they? Did anyone else notice that?

Edited December 11, 2015 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Yes, technically, it is a choice, of course. But a choice where the outcome is kind of obvious, if you ask me. It's like putting a piece of cake in front of a child and telling them not to touch it because you said so. I think we all know how that's going to end. To me, that's not so much a choice as being a set up for failure.

 

But, what I was really trying to get at was: God wasn't really offering Adam and Eve a choice because, IMO, it didn't occur to Adam and Eve they could actually eat the poisoned fruit until Lucifer put the suggestion to them. That was the original "sin" introduced into God's creation, the idea humanity could have ideas of their own. What SPN God gave humanity wasn't free will, IMO, but reason (order) and it was Amara, working through Lucifer, who gave humanity free will (chaos). In essence, humanity was really created by both God and Amara, God just took all the credit, IMO.

 

Hmm.  Interesting.

 

To your first point, I don't think any outcome is predetermined.  A child will certainly be tempted by something set before him, but the child still makes the choice to eat or not.  It's subconscious, but the reward outweighs the punishment in the child's mind if he eats.  

 

Now, here's where things get all metaphysical.  ;-)  God gave man free will, IMO, simply because he gave them the ability to make a choice.  All the temptation in the world will mean nothing if God didn't imbibe in humanity the ability to choose.  It may not have occurred to Adam and Eve that they could eat from the tree, but the innate knowledge must have been in their subconscious.  Otherwise, when Lucifer suggested it, they would have had no idea what he was even talking about.  He would have been speaking a foreign language to them.

 

I'm trying to think of a concrete example of that nebulous idea, but I am coming up blank.  Probably because I can't describe something I have no knowledge of.  Okay, this is an incredibly flawed metaphor, but I'll give it a go.

 

Kummerspeck is a German word of which we have no equivalent in English.  Literally, it means "grief bacon".  Wha-?  You understand the two words, but I'd be surprised if a non-German speaker would understand what "grief bacon" is trying to convey.  It sounds like emotional overeating, or the food you eat when you're feeling particularly emotional.  But, no, it refers to the weight we gain due to emotional overeating.  We understand the idea of emotional overeating, but not the idea that the weight we gain from it should have a word of its own.

 

So, kind of like that, Adam and Eve must have had a subconscious understanding of choice without knowing the literal meaning of it.

 

Sorry, I'm not making any sense at all.  This is why I should never be a writer.  I have difficulty finding words that convey what's going on in my head.  

Edited December 11, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[Omegamom]

Veering waaaay off subject.

As the wards around the cage are fading and the fire is dying, Crowley asks, "What's going on?!?" Rowena takes his arm and says something like, "This way, Fergus..." and leads him...where? What's she up to?

And I have to wait until Jan. 20 to find out. Damn.

[SueB]

grief bacon -- I HAVE to work that into my everyday talking
 
Thanks for the research Daisy!
 
IF (and it's a BIG IF because they've really had fun with re-inventing Genesis in SPN) they follow how it's written, God put them in the garden and specifically told them not to each from the one tree which "brings knowledge of good and evil" or they will be doomed to death.  The serpent tricked them and said that they wouldn't die, God just wanted to keep the knowledge to himself.  So, technically, they knew what the tree was and the consequences. OTOH, if they don't know the what is "good and evil" then how would they know it was sin to disobey God?  As Joshua would say, a person can go nuts trying to figure this out.  But of course, this all presumes SPN is sticking to that line in the Bible.  I'm not sure that's the case.

The shirt was pulling at the buttons in the front.  It really jumped out at me because Sam typically wears looser fitting shirts.

 
Hmmmmm, I'll have to go look.  Maybe Jared's bulked up a bit?
 

Veering waaaay off subject.

As the wards around the cage are fading and the fire is dying, Crowley asks, "What's going on?!?" Rowena takes his arm and says something like, "This way, Fergus..." and leads him...where? What's she up to?

And I have to wait until Jan. 20 to find out. Damn.

First I was convinced she was in cahoots with Crowley. After rewatch, you can clearly see that Lucifer motions to drop the warding after Sam says "no".  My theory is that the warding was something he could overcome right from the get-go.  He was trying to get a "yes" out of Sam and so he was playing along that Sam was safe until Sam said "no".

 

As for Rowena, I think she started to see the warding go and realized she need to get the Hell out of Hell before Lucifer swatted her for putting the warding on in the first place.  I suspect she needed Crowley's help to leave the joint.  Crowley went because Crowley is NOT tangling with Lucifer for Sam Winchester (or Dean Winchester for that matter).  

 

And when Dean finds out??!?! Boom.  I can't imagine either one of those two volunteering to tell the tale.  

Edited December 11, 2015 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

Now, here's where things get all metaphysical.  ;-)  God gave man free will, IMO, simply because he gave them the ability to make a choice.  All the temptation in the world will mean nothing if God didn't imbibe in humanity the ability to choose.  It may not have occurred to Adam and Eve that they could eat from the tree, but the innate knowledge must have been in their subconscious.  Otherwise, when Lucifer suggested it, they would have had no idea what he was even talking about.  He would have been speaking a foreign language to them.

 

Well sure, if you want to get all metaphysical. ;) No, you're correct in that God did give humanity the physical ability to choose--although, I wonder if he actually had intended for that and/or wanted it, rather than it being a fluke of his creation--but without the knowledge of that ability, what good would that ability be?  If God had intended for humanity to use this ability, why would he have not bestowed the knowledge of it on them too? So, I'm giving the credit to Amara for giving humanity the knowledge of the ability to choose, even if she didn't give them the ability herself.

 

IF (and it's a BIG IF because they've really had fun with re-inventing Genesis in SPN) they follow how it's written, God put them in the garden and specifically told them not to each from the one tree which "brings knowledge of good and evil" or they will be doomed to death.  The serpent tricked them and said that they wouldn't die, God just wanted to keep the knowledge to himself.  So, technically, they knew what the tree was and the consequences. OTOH, if they don't know the what is "good and evil" then how would they know it was sin to disobey God?  As Joshua would say, a person can go nuts trying to figure this out.  But of course, this all presumes SPN is sticking to that line in the Bible.  I'm not sure that's the case.

 

See, those Sunday School lessons are so long ago...but, it's interesting you use the word "tricked" there. Was it really a trick? Was not the serpent being more truthful than God? Adam and Eve didn't die--as God told them they would--and God was keeping the knowledge to himself. 

[bethy]

But Adam and Eve did die, even if it wasn't immediate. I would say that Satan tricked them by implying that they wouldn't die immediately, but knowing that the long-term consequences of their disobedience would be death.

 

I'm not sure how this all works in the SPN universe, but as Genesis is written, I would say it was a trick/lie on Satan's part. 

[DittyDotDot]

But, they didn't die because they ate the fruit. Wait, are you saying Adam and Eve would've been immortal if they didn't' eat the fruit? That's a very interesting thought...I don't remember that notion from all those Sunday School lessons.

 

 

As the wards around the cage are fading and the fire is dying, Crowley asks, "What's going on?!?" Rowena takes his arm and says something like, "This way, Fergus..." and leads him...where? What's she up to?

 

I'm guessing Rowena used a spell that wasn't all that it appeared to be. Although, I do assume Lucifer, after being cooped up for the last few years, was just playing with them for a bit and could overcome that warding at anytime--he did say the cage was broken to a certain degree. Other than that, Rowena does seem to sense a good time for an exit.  

[bethy]

But, they didn't die because they ate the fruit. Wait, are you saying Adam and Eve would've been immortal if they didn't' eat the fruit? That's a very interesting thought...I don't remember that notion from all those Sunday School lessons.

 

My understanding is that God created humanity to exist in relationship with Him and that would have been eternal if Adam and Even had been obedient to His "You can eat anything in the garden except from this tree." It was their disobedience that introduced suffering and death into the world.

Edited December 14, 2015 by bethy

[DittyDotDot]

My understanding is that God created humanity to exist in harmony with Him and that would have been eternal if Adam and Even had been obedient to His "You can eat anything in the garden except from this tree." It was their disobedience that introduced suffering and death into the world.

 

Is it not what also introduced life, or birth, into the world? In fact, humanity would not actually exist were it not for their disobedience.

[Demented Daisy]

My understanding is that God created humanity to exist in harmony with Him and that would have been eternal if Adam and Even had been obedient to His "You can eat anything in the garden except from this tree." It was their disobedience that introduced suffering and death into the world.

 

That's what I was taught as well.  

 

 

Is it not what also introduced life, or birth, into the world? In fact, humanity would not actually exist were it not for their disobedience.

 

 

Hmm.  No, I don't remember being taught that.

 

If I may quote a certain commercial featuring an owl eating a lollipop, "The world may never know."  (Did I just show my age or what?)

[rue721]

Things I enjoyed:

 

-- When Amara tried to justify herself to Dean by saying that the souls live on within her once she's consumed them. That was incredibly creepy.

 

-- Lucifer and Sam's conversation in the Cage. The music was pretty ridiculous, but the acting was top notch. Lucifer was scarier than he's ever been, and when Sam started crying, my heart absolutely melted for him.

 

This show is so fucked up, though! I can't believe that they did that whole episode about Sam's imaginary friend, apparently in order to prime us for caring even more than usual about Sam, just to throw him in the Cage! So emotionally manipulative, lol.

 

-- Rowena and Crowley are always great together. I was happy to see both Rowena and Crowley in general. When they were gone, I didn't really miss them, but I guess that absence made the heart grow fonder, anyway.

 

However, I'm not sure that God allows for chaos as much as he can't stop it. Like I said, I think he wants humanity to believe he has the control, but in reality, I don't think he really does.

 

They always refer to God as a sort of father-figure on this show, and I think this is a very "parental" kind of stance. You only have control as long as your children believe you have control -- but as long as they believe you have it, then *you really do.*

 

In other words, I think that God is sort of like the Wizard of Oz. Right now, his reputation (via the Bible) is like the Wizard's big float-y head -- he seems very scary and in charge and like he might always be lurking around, but he doesn't actually DO very much. (I also think that, very soon, somebody (probably Sam, because he's got the most faith) is going to reveal the man behind the curtain).

 

Anyway, I don't think God can truly vanquish Amara by himself or in another a face-to-face fight, because he and Amara are too much alike. She's basically the anti-God. So I think that God is having to go a little "guerrilla warfare" in his fight against her, and is using bait and "tools" (e.g. Dean) in order to lead her into some sort of trap or to distract her into irrelevance.

 

Going along that same train of thought:  I think it's very likely that God is trying to maneuver Lucifer out of the cage, because if Amara is so drawn to Dean because Dean used to bear the Mark, then Lucifer would make her go absolutely wild; he would make a fantastic piece of bait for God to dangle in front of her and use to manipulate/distract her into doing whatever God wants her to do. Lucifer is the original bearer of the Mark and used to be God's pet. He also doesn't have a soul, per se, so he's much less vulnerable to Amara than Dean is. And, I mean, even Rowena was going nuts being close to Luci, and she's only a member of Team Darkness, not the Darkness herself.

 

I think it's possible that it WAS God giving Sam those visions, and sent Sam to the Cage. Before this episode, I was sure it was Lucifer, but when Lucifer claimed responsibility for it in this ep, it just smelled like bullshit to me. I think it's possible that when Sam showed up at the Cage and started spouting off about how he needed to help/connect with Lucifer as part of God's plan, Lucifer saw an opportunity and seized it.

 

To your first point, I don't think any outcome is predetermined.  A child will certainly be tempted by something set before him, but the child still makes the choice to eat or not.  It's subconscious, but the reward outweighs the punishment in the child's mind if he eats.

 

I agree that a kid can forgo temptation in order to get a bigger reward down the line. That's "the marshmallow test" in a nutshell.

 

But the thing is that the God within the show didn't actually offer any rewards -- because he set it up so that the only way the challenge/temptation in the Garden of Eden could end is if Adam and Eve ate the fruit. If they didn't eat the fruit, then it would just dangle in front of them until they did. The game was rigged so that the only way it could end was with Adam and Eve "losing" -- if they didn't "lose" (and eat the fruit), the game wouldn't end. There was no way for them to "win."

 

I don't think that's a trick, but I do think that's a setup. It's a very manipulated situation. 

 

And I think that's what Amara was basically saying in this episode when she was dropping all those "truth bombs" about God -- I think she was saying that he was manipulating everyone by making demands on them (like for them to have faith) and threatening them, but that his reward (that after they're dead, they can see him or "be with him") is fake/hallow and not much of a reward anyway.

 

Amara said that when she consumes souls that they're "with" her forever and that they exist in bliss. That's more or less what God promises, too -- that if he's happy with people, that they'll be "with" him forever and exist in heaven once they die. I think that she felt like God really proved himself to be no better than she is (even to his supposed pets, human souls) once she found out the tripe that he was feeding them in order to keep getting his way.

 

The weird thing on this show is that they already have showed that people really do sort of live on as themselves in Heaven, so Amara is actually being too cynical about how God treats the souls he likes. But anyway.

 

Hmmmmm, I'll have to go look.  Maybe Jared's bulked up a bit?

 

I think it's possible. In the past, it's always seemed like, whenever he's going through a rough patch or isn't feeling well, he loses lots of weight. Remember when he hurt his arm last year and started looking so scrawny? My guess is that he's finally feeling better and has bounced back from that crisis this summer (when he had to skip the Italian con and all that), and he's probably regained some weight now that he's happier/healthier.

 

In other words, I think that Jared is probably wearing costumes that were bought for the (scrawnier) size he was at the beginning of the season, but now that his health has gotten better and he's put some weight on, they're too tight. I don't think there's an in-show reason for Sam's clothes to be tighter than usual, lol.

 

Thanks for pointing out that his clothes are snug -- I didn't notice, but now that you've brought it up, I think it means that things are going well for Jared and I'm happy for him. :)

[bethy]

Is it not what also introduced life, or birth, into the world? In fact, humanity would not actually exist were it not for their disobedience.

No. I mean certainly no one was born before the fall, but the consequence God places on Eve is pain during childbirth, which seems to indicate that if they hadn't eaten the fruit, there would have been childbirth without pain.

[catrox14]

I'm so far removed from Sunday School and religion but I grew up with Southern Baptist relatives but my mom had us attend a Disciples of Christ church when I was a weeCatrox. I remember learning that it was the snake aka Satan who some think is Lucifer who told Eve it was okay to eat from the tree and she trusted him and Adam went along for the ride.

 

So wouldn't that make Lucifer responsible for humanity as it exists?

 

 

I guess if nothing else this conversation highlights how we all learn different things and interpret things differently about religion even under the broad umbrella of "Judeo-Christian" teachings.

[Demented Daisy]

 

Anyway, I don't think God can truly vanquish Amara by himself or in another a face-to-face fight, because he and Amara are too much alike. She's basically the anti-God. So I think that God is having to go a little "guerrilla warfare" in his fight against her, and is using bait and "tools" (e.g. Dean) in order to lead her into some sort of trap or to distract her into irrelevance.

 

Going along that same train of thought:  I think it's very likely that God is trying to maneuver Lucifer out of the cage, because if Amara is so drawn to Dean because Dean used to bear the Mark, then Lucifer would make her go absolutely wild; he would make a fantastic piece of bait for God to dangle in front of her and use to manipulate/distract her into doing whatever God wants her to do. Lucifer is the original bearer of the Mark and used to be God's pet. He also doesn't have a soul, per se, so he's much less vulnerable to Amara than Dean is. And, I mean, even Rowena was going nuts being close to Luci, and she's only a member of Team Darkness, not the Darkness herself.

 

I think it's possible that it WAS God giving Sam those visions, and sent Sam to the Cage. Before this episode, I was sure it was Lucifer, but when Lucifer claimed responsibility for it in this ep, it just smelled like bullshit to me. I think it's possible that when Sam showed up at the Cage and started spouting off about how he needed to help/connect with Lucifer as part of God's plan, Lucifer saw an opportunity and seized it.

 

Interesting.  That does sound like something he would do.  Anything to get out of that cage.

 

 

 

I agree that a kid can forgo temptation in order to get a bigger reward down the line. That's "the marshmallow test" in a nutshell.

 

But the thing is that the God within the show didn't actually offer any rewards -- because he set it up so that the only way the challenge/temptation in the Garden of Eden could end is if Adam and Eve ate the fruit. If they didn't eat the fruit, then it would just dangle in front of them until they did. The game was rigged so that the only way it could end was with Adam and Eve "losing" -- if they didn't "lose" (and eat the fruit), the game wouldn't end. There was no way for them to "win."

 

Ah, but there is.  It's the same reward children get for following the rules their parents set -- approval.  It's not a tangible reward, but isn't that why we did what our parents wanted us to do?  Much like God, we follow our parents rules because we want them to love us and we don't want to be punished.  Not necessarily in that order.  ;-)

 

Temptation, IMO, never ends.  My mother in law quit smoking over 40 years ago; my father quit almost 15 years ago.  They both, occasionally, get the urge to light up a cigarette.  The physical craving is long gone, but the psychological will always be there.  That's the test set up in the Garden of Eden.   Obedience in the face of perpetual temptation.

 

So, to turn this back around to the show -- will Dean be able to resist the perpetual temptation that is Amara?  Will he waver in his obedience to saving humanity?

[AwesomO4000]

This is a fascinating discussion that when I have more time, I'll try to contribute more.

 

I'd like to share one of my favorite quotes, though, that all of the Garden of Eden talk has made me think of. It's from X-Men: The Original Series (yes, a cartoon, but a great show for me nonetheless).

 

Beast when Storm (I think) offers him an apple (might not be word for word): As a scientist, I have always resisted the notion it was knowledge that destroyed paradise.

 

Off to Holiday shop - I'll be back tonight.

[rue721]

Ah, but there is.  It's the same reward children get for following the rules their parents set -- approval.  It's not a tangible reward, but isn't that why we did what our parents wanted us to do?  Much like God, we follow our parents rules because we want them to love us and we don't want to be punished.  Not necessarily in that order.  ;-)

 

Temptation, IMO, never ends.  My mother in law quit smoking over 40 years ago; my father quit almost 15 years ago.  They both, occasionally, get the urge to light up a cigarette.  The physical craving is long gone, but the psychological will always be there.  That's the test set up in the Garden of Eden.   Obedience in the face of perpetual temptation.

 

But if your parents/God don't actually give a shit about you and you've given up hope that they ever will (and Amara was saying that God has never really given a shit about humans, imo), then that reward is just fake, an illusion. In real terms, there is no reward. The game is rigged, etc etc etc.

 

Within the world of the show, I think that it's *possible* that God actually cares about his creations, but it's also very likely that he doesn't. Different characters have different opinions about that (and some don't seem to interested in the question at all), and tbh, I like that the show is ambiguous and hasn't shown either "side" as correct.

 

Anyway, if God does care, then his approval is a possible reward. The protesters at the beginning of the episode clearly thought that they could get his approval/rewarded, and even that they *had* gotten it, and *had been* rewarded. If God doesn't care, though, then there's no possibility of being rewarded with his approval, and thus no possibility of a reward at all (since no other rewards are on offer, apparently). Amara said flat out that she thinks that God doesn't care, and Dean also seems to doubt that God cares.

 

I think Sam leans more toward the idea that God does care, and pays attention, and that God's approval is something that he can get (or at least, Sam seems to try and *have faith* that that's the case) -- but he gets very confused and nervous about the question of HOW he can get it. Apparently, he thought that he had a shot at it by following God's visions to Lucifer, but now he's doubtful that God gave him those visions at all.

 

It's fascinating to me that Sam is the one who is always throwing himself into the Cage and praying to God and searching for God's approval (or even just God's attention), while Dean is so indifferent to it and never prioritizes it. (Dean has other things that he'll sacrifice for, obviously, but God's approval does not seem to be one of them). I guess Sam's shitty (non-)relationship with John affected him more than it seems, LOL.

 

ETA:  better grammar!

Edited December 11, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

 

So, to turn this back around to the show -- will Dean be able to resist the perpetual temptation that is Amara?  Will he waver in his obedience to saving humanity?

 

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean here, but I don't see this as Dean being challenged to resist temptation or failing to be obedient.

 

Amara forced her bliss on the drunk girl and Len, who died soulless. She is outright controlling Dean body and mind and possibly soul. She can zap him to wherever she wants him to be. She can kill him if she chooses despite their bond, which man that really sucks for Dean because he doesn't even have the Mark anymore :(.  (So much for not being afflicted, Mr. Carver LOL)

 

I guess I'm thinking of temptation as more like Ruby with Sam, where she laid morsels at his feet. And Sam had a lot more agency with Ruby than Dean does with Amara.

Edited December 11, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

No. I mean certainly no one was born before the fall, but the consequence God places on Eve is pain during childbirth, which seems to indicate that if they hadn't eaten the fruit, there would have been childbirth without pain.

 

Birth cannot happen without death, though, we would've long overrun the planet by now otherwise. But more to my point: That's the essence of humanity--we are born and we die--ergo without death, humanity cannot exist.

 

 

Ah, but there is.  It's the same reward children get for following the rules their parents set -- approval.  It's not a tangible reward, but isn't that why we did what our parents wanted us to do?  Much like God, we follow our parents rules because we want them to love us and we don't want to be punished.  Not necessarily in that order.  ;-)

 

I don't know about that, exactly.  Sure, I try not to exceed the speed limit because I can't really afford a speeding ticket--so yeah, I 'd like to avoid the punishment--I wouldn't say it's very high on my reason not to list, though, nor do I do it so that people will like me. In fact, this is a case where many people might like me more if I were a speedster. However, me being an adult, I understand the reason there's a speed limit is because I could kill myself or someone else. So, the actual consequence has nothing to do with punishment or love, but that I don't wish to be responsible for ending someone's life. I understand what the consequences are and weigh them against the benefit and make and informed choice.

 

With children can be a bit trickier because they don't always understand the cause and effect of their actions. So, what I was trying to get at originally by using a child and cake was that, it was the original sin, so to speak. Adam and Eve had no notion of punishment or reward; they didn't know what death would mean anymore more than they understood what the knowledge they would gain would be. So, is it really a choice if one can't weigh the benefits and the consequences and truly understand what's at stake? 

[Demented Daisy]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean here, but I don't see this as Dean being challenged to resist temptation or failing to be obedient.

 

Amara forced her bliss on the drunk girl and Len, who died soulless. She is outright controlling Dean body and mind and possibly soul. She can zap him to wherever she wants him to be. She can kill him if she chooses despite their bond, which man that really sucks for Dean because he doesn't even have the Mark anymore :(.  (So much for not being afflicted, Mr. Carver LOL)

 

I'm not convinced that Amara can kill Dean.  I don't think Amara was controlling him, either.  Sure, she can pop his body wherever she likes, but so can any angel -- Castiel used to do it all the time.

 

I think that Amara may have been offering him an invitation.  She doesn't want him to fight her.  I think she wants him to join her in a future fight against God.  That's what I meant about Dean resisting temptation.

[Omegamom]

Rue, I love your thought about Lucifer being bait. Very twisty mind! Awesome idea!

But I'm not very convinced that the show runners have such twisty minds.

We will see.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not convinced that Amara can kill Dean.  I don't think Amara was controlling him, either.  Sure, she can pop his body wherever she likes, but so can any angel -- Castiel used to do it all the time.

 

I think that Amara may have been offering him an invitation.  She doesn't want him to fight her.  I think she wants him to join her in a future fight against God.  That's what I meant about Dean resisting temptation.

 

Yeah, I had the feeling Dean wasn't full-on being controlled as much as curious what she wanted. And, then I think it rightly pissed him off that he let his own curiosity get the better of him when he realized she almost sucked out his soul. But, I much prefer the notion Dean has a certain amount of control at all times. I'm kinda weird that way.

[KirkB]

Isn't it possible that some of the story, like for example what happened in Eden, is either wrong or inaccurate? As I understand, the word of God in Supernatural may have been dictated by the man himself but it was actually written down by Metatron. Who is, I think everyone would agree, not the most reliable of narrators. For all we know God could have whipped up Eden and it's two inhabitants and then gone on vacation, and Luci swooped in and decided to have some fun with the new toys and got his snake on. Metatron then edited the narrative to make God look good.

 

Why would God want to let Lucifer out of the cage? Even he doesn't have the power to stop Amara, and if he got loose (He's not, right? I mean, he and now Sam are still stuck in the cage?) Earth would have two problems. Well, until Amara decided to deal with her nephew. Speaking of, I've been wondering something. It was said, if I remember correctly, that God couldn't destroy Amara and that's why he locked her up. But what does that mean? That God was not able to kill her or that he was unwilling? If it's the former, because she is on the same level as him and thus his equal, then I don't see how it's possible for Lucifer, the other angels, or the Winchesters to beat her at all. I mean, if God can't do it, no one can. On the other hand, if God couldn't bring himself to kill his own sister and locked her up then how's he going to react if someone else tries to do it?

Edited December 11, 2015 by KirkB

[AwesomO4000]

Why would God want to let Lucifer out of the cage? Even he doesn't have the power to stop Amara, and if he got loose (He's not, right? I mean, he and now Sam are still stuck in the cage?) Earth would have two problems. Well, until Amara decided to deal with her nephew. Speaking of, I've been wondering something. It was said, if I remember correctly, that God couldn't destroy Amara and that's why he locked her up. But what does that mean? That God was not able to kill her or that he was unwilling? If it's the former, because she is on the same level as him and thus his equal, then I don't see how it's possible for Lucifer, the other angels, or the Winchesters to beat her at all. I mean, if God can't do it, no one can. On the other hand, if God couldn't bring himself to kill his own sister and locked her up then how's he going to react if someone else tries to do it?

 

Lucifer might not have the power to stop her as in kill her, but he was one of the beings who helped to lock her up in the first place, and so therefor might know how to do it again. Lucifer was the first bearer of the mark that he gave to Cain - I'm not even sure how he got rid of the mark in the first place, since Cain could not get rid of it even after giving it to Dean. Could Lucifer still have the mark? Because if he returns to earth, could that mean he could theoretically lock Amara up again? Does anyone remember whether Cain mentioned if Lucifer was able to get rid of the mark after giving it to Cain?

 

But even if he doesn't have the mark anymore, Lucifer does know how she was locked up in the first place. And there are more angels now, so he could have help. Or the world could have more help in general (if Amara hasn't blasted all of the angels, that is... though maybe they'll weaken her a bit... thankfully they don't have souls for her to eat.)

 

However, I think the best way to solve this is going to be to get the information from Lucifer without him getting out of the cage, and I am hoping that that will be Sam's role... That Sam can somehow get the information out of Lucifer, but not say "yes." It's going to take a lot from Sam, between the probable torture and his shaken faith, and he might have to do some acting - like make Lucifer think Lucifer almost has him in order to get him to talk, but I'm hoping that's what this is... and not that Sam will say "yes."

 

Sam's also going to have to have faith in Dean... that Dean will get him out of there with that information. Maybe that faith can be what he can hold on to.

[SueB]

However, I think the best way to solve this is going to be to get the information from Lucifer without him getting out of the cage, and I am hoping that that will be Sam's role... That Sam can somehow get the information out of Lucifer, but not say "yes." It's going to take a lot from Sam, between the probable torture and his shaken faith, and he might have to do some acting - like make Lucifer think Lucifer almost has him in order to get him to talk, but I'm hoping that's what this is... and not that Sam will say "yes."

 

Sam's also going to have to have faith in Dean... that Dean will get him out of there with that information. Maybe that faith can be what he can hold on to.

 

I'm hoping this is what happens.  That Sam GETS the info from Lucifer.  I'm also hoping God LET Lucifer send the visions so as to get the data to Sam.

 

You know what I find interesting? That Death said he and God debated who was older.  And now Amara claims she was the Beginning.  Seems like "being first" matters to these guys. But I wonder if Death's claim is because God invented Death to provide some bit of the Darkness in His universe. Or maybe they'll just ignore that claim all together.  

[DittyDotDot]

Lucifer might not have the power to stop her as in kill her, but he was one of the beings who helped to lock her up in the first place, and so therefor might know how to do it again. Lucifer was the first bearer of the mark that he gave to Cain - I'm not even sure how he got rid of the mark in the first place, since Cain could not get rid of it even after giving it to Dean. Could Lucifer still have the mark? Because if he returns to earth, could that mean he could theoretically lock Amara up again? Does anyone remember whether Cain mentioned if Lucifer was able to get rid of the mark after giving it to Cain?

 

As far as I know, it's never been specifically addressed. Lucifer is an arc angel not a human, so maybe the Mark works differently on him? However, I wonder if Lucifer actually bore the Mark himself. What I mean is, it was stated that God gave the Mark to Lucifer to guard, but didn't say he actually bore it. Maybe Lucifer's way of protecting it was cursing Cain with it? 

 

Along that line, I'm still perplexed at how Amara can be wearing the Mark herself if the Mark is also what kept her locked up? Plus, Death said God created the Mark as a lock and key, so how is it that Amara could be the "original" Mark carrier? Yeah, I know... .

[KirkB]

Maybe the spell that created the Mark works because it's a birthmark on Amara? It's connected to her, rather than being some random symbol God or Lucifer came up with in the first place.

[Aeryn13]

So, being away on vacation, I apparently missed an episode with Donna that had nothing noteworthy or interesting to it, a piece of uber-ultimate Sam-shilling that should sink to the bottom of the ocean and this mid-Season Finale. Hence, I only caught up on this last one. 

 

It was... okay, I thought.

 

I like Amara and she certainly has valid points. Also love her bond with Dean and that it still confuses the both of them. I hope it keeps him in a valid role in the mytharc. It was unclear whether she reconsidered taking his soul or realized she couldn`t. Hopefully, it is gonna be explained a bit more. Also, I didn`t mind the kiss one bit. She could ve the eviliest evil who ever eviled and Dean could have raised her from infanthood to now and I still wouldn`t mind. Simply because she gives him a storyline. And apparently thinks he is worth something. This is literally all I require now.

 

Meanwhile Sam and Lucifer? Apart from the last bit, it was pretty whatever for me. Lucifer was just too much smarmy jokester at first and Sam just gave scared reaction shots. How compelling. Not. This is not Pellegrino`s fault because clearly Lucifer was supposed to be smarmy jokester but it is such a small-,minded shtick. If you take on big wig mythological characters, give them some fucking gravitas. 

 

Then at least Lucifer pulled out some real menace once Sam was in the cage. I thought Pellegrino shone there. Obviously, the "twist" was supposed to be super-surprising with the music and the tone of that scene. Because God would have reason to say "I never could fool you" to Sam in a vision. That makes so much sense. Lucifer basically gave himself away then and there. But I guess he knew that Sam would just breeze over it because God ignoring everyone else in the universe, angels and his own sister is completely feasible but how could he ignore the most special and saintly praying person ever, right? Because the shilling wasn`t out of this world enough in the episodes coming before this. I am more than thankful they refrained from shooting it out of the universe here. 

 

Sorry, I wasn`t sorry about the reveal and I would not at all want it to be made into "it was God after all". Nor do I want God to want Lucifer out because only Lucifer can defeat the Darkness or use him as bait or something. All would just be ways to toss Dean aside like yesterday`s trash and make the story about just Sam in the end. I couldn`t possibly hate this idea more.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Hana Chan]

Well, Dean's mytharc role would be a lot more interesting if it involved more than just staring stupefied at Amara anytime she's in the immediate vicinity. He's got absolutely no control here other than what she allows him and that became really obvious in this episode. We've seen before that he's totally incapable of resisting her (for reasons that the show has refused to qualify thus far) but this episode really hammered it home. Dean was unable (or unwilling) to answer a phone call from Sam that he knew would be critical, and his attempt to stab Amara seemed to have been allowed by her to show him that he really was powerless to fight her.

 

Sam's role seems to be a more active one, where he's really trying to work out a way to deal with the Dimness. Dealing with Lucifer is always tricky, but at least Sam is trying to do something here other than have long, boring, endless conversations with the Dimness about her motives and show nil in the way of being able to resist her. That doesn't mean that I don't think that Dean won't have a crucial role in this later on, just that right now he's not showing himself to be anything more than an amusing distraction.

[Aeryn13]

Different strokes for different folks, Sam and Lucifer has been done so many times in various ways, it bores me to tears. And Sam`s way of dealing with is so far has been "hey, God, would you kindly drop me the relevant plot points" to believing he was the newly chosen Saviour (again) to now being in the cage with Lucifer. Not too active either IMO. 

 

Whereas not knowing what bonds Dean and Amara exactly actually intrigues me. Yes, she has a certain hold over him but he could overcome it here to make an attempt on her. I don`t buy that she just puppeted him. Sure, it was clear the blade wouldn`t work but he was able to try. That tells me that he can have a certain agency. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

To me, Dean's conversation with Amara mirrored Sam's conversation with Lucifer. Sam started out thinking he had some control, but in reality, he had very little if none. And, Dean started out having little control, but seemed to gain some by the end--he did try to stab her, even if it was monumentally stupid to think that wee little knife could do anything against God's sister, at least he took a shot. But, I think both were actively trying to work things out in their own ways. I think it's interesting how Sam started out more active, but ended the episode where Dean started and vice versa for Dean.

 

Now, if they had just toned down the DUN-DUN-DUN music in Hell and cleaned up the dialogue, I might have actually been really engaged with this episode. As it was, though, I kinda spent a lot of the time laughing at it...and no, I don't mean to say I was laughing with it.

[Hana Chan]

Dean has no more agency than he had with the MoC. In other words, his leash is as long as Amara allows. He leaves Sam alone with Crowley and Rowena knowing that they are looking for a way for Sam to meet with Lucifer to investigate one of Amara's small mass slaughters (which is decidedly less horrific than Lucifer's killing of an entire town full of people down to the last infant). He doesn't answer the phone call from Sam when he had been waiting for word on them being ready to move. But then he suddenly has the ability to strike at Amara? I find it pretty impossible to believe that he had enough free will to do that and I thought that it was pretty clear from Amara's dialogue that she allowed him to do so just to prove that he was incapable of fighting her.

 

Believe me, I would be happy to see some evidence that Dean really is capable of fighting Amara because he's been the bearer of the MoC, but we're just not seeing that now. And we still haven't had it made clear just why she's got any investment in him or how he's going to further her goals.

 

For me, this is the weak part of the whole storyline. The big bad, for her stated power and status as God's "sister" is decidedly less compelling than pretty much every other big bad the show's had so far. Dean's role right now seems to be a sounding board for Amara to whine about God ignoring her (get in line, sister). Until we get some clear rational why Dean is so under Amara's control, why he is of any value to her beyond his status as one who carried the MoC, it's going to remain the less interesting part of the storyline.

Edited December 13, 2015 by Hana Chan

[Aeryn13]

 

He leaves Sam alone with Crowley and Rowena knowing that they are looking for a way for Sam to meet with Lucifer to investigate one of Amara's small mass slaughters (which is decidedly less horrific than Lucifer's killing of an entire town full of people down to the last infant). He doesn't answer the phone call from Sam when he had been waiting for word on them being ready to move.

 

Despite the episode kinda saying that Dean should have stayed on as a babysitter, it is not something that I think the character should need to do. Sam is capable of making his own decisions, that he listened to Rowena`s rather obvious ploy of "it HAS to be now....because of reasons" is not Dean`s fault. Actually dividing force of labour is in theory a good thing in my mind. One staying and one going to investigate Amara directly.   

 

 

The big bad, for her stated power and status as God's "sister" is decidedly less compelling than pretty much every other big bad the show's had so far.

 

Completely disagree. I found the Leviathans and their corporate scheme super-boring. Abaddon never could live up to her full potential, neither did Eve though I thought there were a few compelling points buried in her narrative. The angel war in Season 9 was a good remedy for sleeplessness. And the hype before Lucifer got out was a 100 times more menacing than when he actually was topside and the snorepocalypse was happening. 

 

This show managed to butcher both Lucifer and Michael for me. I wasn`t even surprised Michael wasn`t even mentioned here - Rowena transporting Lucifer to some other cage or not - because Michael resides in the most impenetrable place ever, the nothing where Dean`s dropped plotlines land. The Empty has nothing on that one.

 

I like that Amara doesn`t have a world-dominating scheme so far. And her gripe with God is actually pretty legitimate. Also, since it predates everyone else`s gripes, it is they who need to get in line behind her.  

[DittyDotDot]

This show managed to butcher both Lucifer and Michael for me. I wasn`t even surprised Michael wasn`t even mentioned here - Rowena transporting Lucifer to some other cage or not - because Michael resides in the most impenetrable place ever, the nothing where Dean`s dropped plotlines land. The Empty has nothing on that one.

 

I'm now wondering--why for the first time, I have no idea--if all of it wasn't some elaborate illusion Rowena cooked up from that spell? It's also curious to me that Lucifer appeared as a dead meat suit. Lot's of holes here, could be it's not actually real at all?

[neverforgottenadam]

I was reading on reddit and tumblr that the cage that appeared on the episode was a fake and in the real cage Michael is still there. I rewatched the episode again and this is a really good theory. First, when Rowena sees the spellbook there is something that appears like a cage, and when the cage first appears it is empty. Crowley also mentions they would not be opening the cage, so they teleported for a lack of better word Lucifer into a fake cage so he would could talk to Sam. Also looking now after rewatching the episode I suspect Rowena knew Lucifer would trick Sam and just went along with it bc she wanted to meet him(lucifer) and it would get rid of Sam for her.

[Mulva]

So far, it seems like the writers have lifted 99% of this plot straight from Angel.  And unless we get a muppet episode, I must protest!

Now I want to see Crowley as a wee, little puppet man.

[Linderhill]

for me, I'd be a lot more compelled to follow the Amara storyline if it wasn't for that actress.  Emily Swallow hasn't impressed me much since I first saw her in "The Mentalist."  The woman is just a snooze-fest for me.

 

Did anyone notice if the knife Dean used was Ruby's demon blade or was it just some miscellaneous (if pretty) knife?

[DittyDotDot]

Did anyone notice if the knife Dean used was Ruby's demon blade or was it just some miscellaneous (if pretty) knife?

 

I thought it was Ruby's knife, but wasn't really paying that much attention. I do remember thinking it was about time they destroyed that thing since it hasn't really been all that useful for years now. Not even sure why Dean keeps carrying it around his person at this point?

[Myrelle]

I'm glad the mid-season finale had something for this Deanfan who loves seeing Dean at the center of the myth-arc more than anything else about this show right now. I'm sure we'll have to get through the requisite, but now old and moldy to me, brothers saving each other nonsense, but hopefully, after that, they will focus on the Dean/Amara storyline more-because this episode ratcheted my interest in it up tenfold, mainly because of the chemistry between Mr. Ackles and the gal playing The Darkness-as I suspected would happen from their sizzlin' scenes in the premiere.

First things first-that Kiss. YOWZA! to that kiss!! So many undercurrents. This is one of the many things that Jensen Ackles does so well-emotions under emotions under emotions. And I'm loving that this mysterious bond between Dean and The Darkness seems to flow both ways in it's mystery. She either tried to take his soul and couldn't, or she changed her mind and chose not to. I'm leaning towards the former because of her look of confusion, but that could also be attributed to her realizing that she actually just did not want to-which works well for me, too. Perhaps she realized that she likes Dean, just as he is-no changes necessary-none at all-and to take his soul would change him forever. So yes, this works for me also-that the equally powerful counterpart to the most powerful supernatural entity on this show likes Dean Winchester just as he is-both his darker aspects and the lighter ones. I can see her learning a thing or two about her brother's creation from him that she could never have imagined. She will, of course, have to be taken out of the picture in some way by the end of the season, though. But until then, they will have plenty of time to explore this bond these two characters share, which to me, goes much deeper than just The Mark. Oh, and I can't remember who mentioned it earlier, but I also saw that moment of genuine concern for each other, right before Amara zapped Dean back to the hot dog stand. And I loved it.

As for Dean, he returned that kiss at first-and did he ever! Wow. Loved that kiss. Loved it so much. I think I must have re-watched it thirty times already. He's drawn to her, but he doesn't want to be and he's not liking it, but he can't help it. This was wonderfully depicted by Jensen through just that Kiss, IMO. Did I say that I LOVED! that kiss already? I'm sure Dean will come to a point when he will wonder if this attraction between them and his being almost magnetically drawn to her is truly all just mind control on her part. I'm so excited about this Dean storyline that it scares me because I know how these writers can mess things up, but so far, this still looks to me as if we're headed towards a deeper look at Dean's psyche as regards the duality of the darkness and light within him presented to us within a more supernaturally-themed storyline. I have wanted this for so long for Dean. I think they tried to do this with Sam via the Sam/Ruby storyline, but I've always felt that this material would have gone over better for me if it was Dean(and JA) trying to sell it, instead of Sam(and JP). From the beginning of this series, Dean has embodied the dichotomy of lightness and dark within most of humanity better than any other character on this show. A storyline of this type and calibre should have been written long ago for Dean and Jensen, IMO-not an episode here and there, but an extended storyline, as Sam and JP has been gifted with numerous times through out the series. I'm seeing the Mark of Cain and the Darkness storylines this way. Hopefully, the writers are too, and hopefully they will do both the actor and his character justice in it this time all the way through to the resolution-meaning Dean will get his BDH moment then, and in a similar fashion as Sam(and JP) was given his in Swan Song.

The biggest wrinkle in this is the Lucifer character, of course-which is why I never wanted him back, but it's better than Sam being the only one that God would deign to speak directly to, I suppose. After this one, it's feeling to me as if there's going to be a face-off between Lucifer and Amara, rather than her brother(God), in the end. From this one, I think that Lucifer fashions himself a strategist equal to his "Father", and as such, he thinks that he can defeat her in that way, too. I don't know what they plan on doing about Michael, though. I'd still love to see Jensen in that role also, but I'm now beginning to think that there is going to be some ridiculous writer-generated reason/excuse for Michael being absent from this storyline-as others have mentioned already. Maybe they will just say he escaped because the cage wasn't built to hold him, that it was built to specifically hold Lucifer, which would mean that Michael is at least still alive and has been free for some time... *shrugs*...

So now we all just wait and speculate until Jan. 20th.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

I thought it was at first but I don't think so after looking more closely.

 

 

This is Rubiy's knife

 

Knife Dean used to stab Amara

[SueB]

 Oh, and I can't remember who mentioned it earlier, but I also saw that moment of genuine concern for each other, right before Amara zapped Dean back to the hot dog stand. And I loved it.

 

It was me! And I'm so glad someone else saw it that way.  I was feeling lonely about it.  I also think you are right... Dean is going to feel confused about where Amara's control is, what is a bliss-effect, and what is just Dean.  In the kiss incident, my personal interpretation is that when she went to suck out his soul, him opening his mouth was pure Amara control.  That wasn't an act of bliss and it certainly wasn't something Dean would willingly do.  Him responding to the kiss, IMO, is probably bliss-effected where he is not clear-headed and making a choice.  His "what the hell was that" and wiping of his mouth indicates that to me.  BUT, I can see him chewing on that topic for a while.  She was made in an image that is distinctly his "type", so she is supposed to be attractive to him at the surface level.  Dean is not that shallow to say "what the hell and just go for it". But if he feels the attraction, it's a least going to be some level of confusion and potentially a sense of guilt (or worse, shame).  That'll mess with his head. 

 

And you're right, IMO JA can knock this out of the park. 

[catrox14]

Okay something is wrong with Lucifer. I'm not so sure that WAS OUR Lucifer.

 

Hear me out.

 

Lucifer: And, I need a ride out of here. I mean, I look swell in here and everything, but I’d be so much smoke top-side.

 

Okay, what does he mean here? Angels aren't smoke. They are white and blue grace, not smoke. Lucifer is an archangel on top of that and pretty egotistical. Why would Lucifer refer to himself as being smoke,(aside from lazy writing)?  Could this be a clue that wasn't actual!Lucifer or even a hologram of actual!Lucifer.  If the entity is referring to itself as smoke, then it would be a demon right? But which demon and why? Remember when Crowley had those fake Dean and Sam..could he have brought in a ringer to be Lucifer hence the odd smoke reference?

[2Old2BAFangirl]

I somehow unsubscribed to this board. Hoping a post will undo it. Sorry to interrupt!

[KirkB]

He may not have meant it literally. Lucifer could have just been referring to the fact if he went to Earth Amara would notice and kill him pretty quickly. And while I would not put it past Crowley to deceive the Winchester's if he felt it was necessary (or even if he was just bored) in this instance Amara is as much of a threat to him and his as she is to the humans, so why would he want to get in their way? Now Rowena, on the other hand, could very easily have a reason to fool both Sam and her son. But I'd wager that was just Luci talking, not a subtle hint of something else going on. As a general rule the Supernatural people aren't subtle.

[neverforgottenadam]

Okay something is wrong with Lucifer. I'm not so sure that WAS OUR Lucifer.

 

Hear me out.

 

Okay, what does he mean here? Angels aren't smoke. They are white and blue grace, not smoke. Lucifer is an archangel on top of that and pretty egotistical. Why would Lucifer refer to himself as being smoke,(aside from lazy writing)?  Could this be a clue that wasn't actual!Lucifer or even a hologram of actual!Lucifer.  If the entity is referring to itself as smoke, then it would be a demon right? But which demon and why? Remember when Crowley had those fake Dean and Sam..could he have brought in a ringer to be Lucifer hence the odd smoke reference?

That's intresting, I think Lucifer is refering to himself metaphorically as being smoke, because while he is in the cage his essence- self is limited and he cannot do much Before he was like "fire", he caused havoc but now because he is in the cage his "fire"' is out and he is smoke. 

 

I was reading this article and these lines caught my eye:

"Meanwhile, an ominous warning that the time has come for His return is shown during the promo released for episode 10. The clip shows Castiel (Misha Collins) looking down on his chest, where the words "I am coming" are etched. It appears that God will use the angel to warn the Winchesters that He has heard their please and that He is coming."

 

So God may have heard Sam after all.. 

Here's the full article: http://www.christiantoday.com/article/supernatural.season.11.episode.10.spoilers.earth.prepares.for.gods.coming/73948.htm

[catrox14]

That's interesting.  I'm taking my response to the spoiler thread :)

[DittyDotDot]

Okay something is wrong with Lucifer. I'm not so sure that WAS OUR Lucifer.

 

Hear me out:

Lucifer: And, I need a ride out of here. I mean, I look swell in here and everything, but I’d be so much smoke top-side.

 

Okay, what does he mean here? Angels aren't smoke. They are white and blue grace, not smoke. Lucifer is an archangel on top of that and pretty egotistical. Why would Lucifer refer to himself as being smoke,(aside from lazy writing)?  Could this be a clue that wasn't actual!Lucifer or even a hologram of actual!Lucifer.  If the entity is referring to itself as smoke, then it would be a demon right? But which demon and why? Remember when Crowley had those fake Dean and Sam..could he have brought in a ringer to be Lucifer hence the odd smoke reference?

 

Not to be a Debbie Downer--even if it is my wont on occasion--I think it was a just a mistake no one caught. I think it was the show's attempt to explain why Lucifer showed up as a dead meat suit. So, Lucifer says, in Hell he appears as Sam sees him, but if he goes top-side, he'll need a vessel. (And, no, I'm not going to start falling down the rabbit hole of wondering why angels actually need vessels unless they want to interact with humans). I think the show just forgot Lucifer was an angel not a demon for a second there.

 

However, I'm not totally convinced that was actually Lucifer; maybe it wasn't a mistake? Either way, I think the line was just an attempt to explain why Lucifer looked like Mark Pelligrino.