The West Wing Season Seven: The Campaign Trail

[Moose135]

58 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But what the FUCK, show? Did I miss it? Because I didn't see ONE SINGLE EPISODE after John Spencer's sudden passing, with a CHYRON of "In loving Memory of John Spencer." I thought we'd get it in Election Day Part II. Nope. Then maybe "Requiem." NOPE. Fuck you, John Wells. I"m PISSED.

Don't be pissed.  At the beginning of "Running Mates" - the first episode to air after John's death, Martin Sheen came on screen and said:

"Good evening. On December 16 we lost our good friend and colleague John Spencer.  Through our shock and grief, we can think of no more fitting memorial to this wonderful man, this extraordinary actor, than to share with you, beginning tonight, the last few months of his work here on The West Wing.  Johnny, it seems we hardly knew you, we love you and we miss you."

It's been a while since I've watched the DVDs, but I'm pretty sure they included it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Moose135 said:

Don't be pissed.  At the beginning of "Running Mates" - the first episode to air after John's death, Martin Sheen came on screen and said:

"Good evening. On December 16 we lost our good friend and colleague John Spencer.  Through our shock and grief, we can think of no more fitting memorial to this wonderful man, this extraordinary actor, than to share with you, beginning tonight, the last few months of his work here on The West Wing.  Johnny, it seems we hardly knew you, we love you and we miss you."

It's been a while since I've watched the DVDs, but I'm pretty sure they included it.

Now why couldn't Netflix air that? I thought I'd seen a freeze frame of Martin Sheen in the "upcoming episode" but there was nothing. Since the cost for the entire episode has been jacked up, when I checked last week, it was something like $139, which, no, I'm not in a position to buy it. And it makes me want to kick myself, because in one of the threads here, either in 2014 or 2015, I think it was @AriAu posted the entire series could be bought for $45!

And it was in Requiem and yes, even in the finale, when Bartlet opened up Leo's gift to reveal that napkin where Leo had written "Bartlet for America" that made me bawl.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, two more things!

My eyeballs really got a workout for the final series:

Another was when Sifuentes/Simone said that he "lost a friend" when making a statement about Leo's death. Really? When from the beginning to almost the end, he was looking for a way to find a new VP because everyone and the media kept harping about his health? It was too bad that this season was during the Bush Administration, because I'm so sure that they could have brought up Cheney's heart attacks when he was VP. Maybe not.

Okay, in typing that, I forgot what my second point was. But another one pinged: How CJ didn't talk to Toby from the moment he confessed. I find it very difficult to reconcile that considering their friendship.

Maybe it will come back to me...

[Moose135]

48 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Okay, in typing that, I forgot what my second point was. But another one pinged: How CJ didn't talk to Toby from the moment he confessed. I find it very difficult to reconcile that considering their friendship.

He just confessed to giving classified information to a reporter.  As WH Chief of Staff, she had to cut him off like that, regardless of their friendship.  It becomes a issue of what she knew, when she found out, what he told her - all the questioning she went through during the MS investigation.

[pawsodoom]

22 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Finally finished this last night, and it went by quickly. Why? Because I fast forwarded all the ELECTION shit I didn't give two figgety fucks about.  I did watch Election Day, Parts I and II, because, John Spencer/Leo. I was prepared for it, so I didn't bawl, but there was a lot of dust in my eyes, and I had to blink. A LOT.

But what the FUCK, show? Did I miss it? Because I didn't see ONE SINGLE EPISODE after John Spencer's sudden passing, with a CHYRON of "In loving Memory of John Spencer." I thought we'd get it in Election Day Part II. Nope. Then maybe "Requiem." NOPE. Fuck you, John Wells. I"m PISSED.

Eyes rolling over the drama that went nowhere about Santos paying child support for his niece. Zzzzzzzzzzz.......

I finished watching the series last night (never watched it when it originally aired). I, too, was looking for the "in memory of" for John Spencer. I mean, come on, he was an integral part of the show. I wish Netflix had shown the statement by Martin that aired when the episode did. I so dreaded the election episodes because I knew that was when they were going to have Leo die.

As for the child support thing, to me it was pretty obvious how they were going to handle it as soon as Bruno mentioned the checkbook. No suspense there.

I found my enthusiasm for the show waning during season 7. Maybe because I'm tired of the political campaign stuff (in the show and in real life) and because I knew the death of Leo was coming. The humor and optimism of the earlier seasons seemed to dissipate and even the way the show was filmed seemed darker to me. At some point, I'll go back and rewatch the Sorkin years when the show as at its best, IMO.

Edited October 20, 2016 by pawsodoom

[GHScorpiosRule]

The election stuff was just a bore to me because it wasn't about "our" team, meaning Bartlet and his team, which included Josh, Sam, Toby, CJ, and Leo. And the show just veered away from them and focused on all these new people I didn't care about. Not to mention, that it turned Josh into an insufferable ASSHOLE.

Oh! I remembered what I wanted to say yesterday, but forgot!

That whole line by Donna, how she did nothing but "grunt work" for Josh when she was his assistant. Well, yes, she did, but that's not all she did. She got to be the one who figured out that the one Senator who was Filibustering, had a grandchild who had autism. Isn't she just the smartest? She got to go with Josh, or in his place to read statements, which I thought was a huge mistake, because what if someone asked follow up questions? And they did, in South Dakota. She acted like a spoiled, petulant little brat when she didn't get her way, and Josh didn't fire her for it. So she can shut up about just being an office drone.

But the other thing that really, and I mean really bugged me was by series end, all the meetings in the situation room consisted of Under or Deputy Secretaries/Directors. Gone was the Joints Chief of Staff, you know Admiral Thomas Boone General Alexander, NSA DIRECTOR Nancy McNally? And it wasn't some small skirmishes that were being discussed and strategized over, either.

I just got the feeling, or rather, Teri Polo played Helen Santos as if she were too good for the White House or something.

Something nice? Oh! Ginger returned for the series finale, so yay?

And I loved, absolutely LOVED Margaret.

[AriAu]

Quote

The election stuff was just a bore to me because it wasn't about "our" team, meaning Bartlet and his team, which included Josh, Sam, Toby, CJ, and Leo. And the show just veered away from them and focused on all these new people I didn't care about.

I watched it live (yes, I am old) and not in a marathon, and it was much more interesting when spread out. Yes, they were not our team, but some of the players showed up from time to time, the storylines were pretty interesting, the writing was solid, and while it was no longer among the best things E V E R on TV, it was one of the best things on at that time.

Quote

Not to mention, that it turned Josh into an insufferable ASSHOLE.

He was always a little bit of an insufferable ASSHOLE, but he was our insufferable asshole!

As to the lack of Nancy etal, the show was in a serious budget crisis in Season 7-that is why Toby, Charlie and others did not appear each week. Anna Devere Smith was probably way more expensive than her deputy!

Finally, again having watched it live, there were tons of stories about the cast's reaction to John Spencer passing away and there were stories in all kinds of newspapers and magazines. Plus, reading the quote from Martin Sheen does not do justice to how moving the moment was.

Quote

And it makes me want to kick myself, because in one of the threads here, either in 2014 or 2015, I think it was @AriAu posted the entire series could be bought for $45!

Keeping looking-a lot of times there are sales of the box set around Christmas time

[GHScorpiosRule]

I tried to see if I could find Sheen's tribute to John Spencer on you tube like the VSA (Very Special Announcement) for the third season throw away opener, with no success.

BUT...I did find the Emmy wins for Spencer, Schiff, Whitford, Janney. And can I say that Mr. Sheen looked miiiighty sexy with those few locks of his hair tumbled over his forehead!???❣️❣️

What?

 

will keep an eye out for sale in this very excellent series.

I'm sure I saw this live since some of the episodes looked familiar but they didn't impress me otherwise I would have remembered them. But the final season was a tumultuous time in my real life, so that could be a reason why.

[Guest]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 11:26 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

That whole line by Donna, how she did nothing but "grunt work" for Josh when she was his assistant. Well, yes, she did, but that's not all she did. She got to be the one who figured out that the one Senator who was Filibustering, had a grandchild who had autism. Isn't she just the smartest? She got to go with Josh, or in his place to read statements, which I thought was a huge mistake, because what if someone asked follow up questions? And they did, in South Dakota. She acted like a spoiled, petulant little brat when she didn't get her way, and Josh didn't fire her for it. So she can shut up about just being an office drone.

 

That bugged me, especially in the sequence of events of how she got her job. She really wasn't qualified for it. She just showed up and started doing it during the campaign and stuck with it. Which shows dedication and drive, but we didn't really see her going above and beyond to get skills that would lead to a promotion.  Many of the assistants in the White House, especially to someone at Josh's level, have masters in Political Science or something similar.  She was a great assistant to Josh (or at least we are to think she was, there are things I thought she should have been fired for), but it's not like Josh was holding her back as far as we saw. 

That being said, she had every right to want more and go for it; I just disagree with how she acted about the change.

[twinkietwin94]

Up to season 7 on my most recent round of rewatching and I'd forgotten just how long that security leak story went on before we found out it was Toby. Though I think I will now be using Bartlet's line "Is it possible to be both shocked and not at all surprised at once?" and I have to say I love when CJ dragoons Will and he barely blinks at it being Toby.

Also Josh refusing to hire Donna, while I get his "excuse" I just want to cry along with her every time

[oceanblue]

Plus people from other campaigns get hired all the time, so it was a baloney excuse.

[zxy556575]

I just finished watching for the first time. There is no question that our current political climate, and my anger over same, affected my perception, but at the end I was sick of all of them, with particular loathing for Josh. I never really warmed to Leo or Depressive Toby because of the way they continually subverted their own beliefs in order to mollify and cater to the voters and/or Democratic operatives.

Every single public moment and gesture came down to appearance and superficiality. Promising something, walking it back, brokering deals, threatening retaliation, obscuring the truth. Gah. That's the way politics works but I was in absolutely no mood to receive it. Bartlet's health lies made me want to throw something at the TV, but I trudged on. All the nitty gritty of politics was probably exhilarating and fresh in 2000 but came off as quaint and distressingly naive to me now.

The campaigns were my least favorite part of an already mediocre experience, so season 7 was the worst. I was never a Bartlet fan (his ego and hubris put me off), but what interest I had was in his presidency and staff, not various splinter groups.

The good? I now understand why everyone loves Allison Janney. I might have watched an entire 156 episodes of CJ giving press briefings, and she got even better as Chief of Staff. Charlie was always welcome, as were Will, Ainsley, Kate, Annabeth, McNally, Fitzwallace, Danny, and all the WW assistants and secretaries except Donna. I liked Sam but wasn't devastated or anything when he left. John Goodman was fantastic in his brief arc.

For as much media as the show got, I was surprisingly unspoiled, including Sam leaving and John Spencer dying. I wasn't aware of any of the major storylines, really, so I can't blame my distaste on prior knowledge. All in all, I just don't think the series has aged well.

Edited December 25, 2016 by lordonia

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

As much as I'd have loved to have the whole gang at all the important gatherings, like Sam being at Leo's wedding or Charlie being at Ellie's wedding, I thought scheduling and actor availability might have played a role.

 

I didn't dwell on the missing people too much but it was offset with ones they got back. I mean, I'm no Amy fan but I liked her inclusion at Leo's funeral because it was more about the actors than the characters. That is precisely why I thought Rob Lowe would've made it if he could 

[AriAu]

Watched Obama's farewell speech and felt really cheated that we never got a Bartlet goodbye speech. Then again, they would have had to let Sorkin come back to write it for it to really soar ("The streets are too crowded with angels tonight..." type of soar).

[BW Manilowe]

16 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

As much as I'd have loved to have the whole gang at all the important gatherings, like Sam being at Leo's wedding or Charlie being at Ellie's wedding, I thought scheduling and actor availability might have played a role.

 

I didn't dwell on the missing people too much but it was offset with ones they got back. I mean, I'm no Amy fan but I liked her inclusion at Leo's funeral because it was more about the actors than the characters. That is precisely why I thought Rob Lowe would've made it if he could 

You mean Leo's funeral? You said wedding.

And yeah, actor availability (& budget issues, as well) probably played a part on some actors/characters not being there for events you'd expect them to. Like Dulé Hill & Elisabeth Moss (Charlie & Zoey) were filming the first seasons of their subsequent shows (Psych & Mad Men) at the same time as S7 of TWW.

Edited January 11, 2017 by BW Manilowe
To add a comment.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

1 hour ago, BW Manilowe said:

You mean Leo's funeral? You said wedding.

And yeah, actor availability (& budget issues, as well) probably played a part on some actors/characters not being there for events you'd expect them to. Like Dulé Hill & Elisabeth Moss (Charlie & Zoey) were filming the first seasons of their subsequent shows (Psych & Mad Men) at the same time as S7 of TWW.

I meant both the wedding and Leo's funeral. They were the two events you'd expect Charlie (wedding) and Sam (funeral) to attend. 

[twinkietwin94]

11 hours ago, AriAu said:

Watched Obama's farewell speech and felt really cheated that we never got a Bartlet goodbye speech. Then again, they would have had to let Sorkin come back to write it for it to really soar ("The streets are too crowded with angels tonight..." type of soar).

Didn't watch it, I'm in a state of denial that his presidency is ending but yeah I also feel cheated we didn't get the farewell speech from Bartlet.

[twinkietwin94]

22 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

As much as I'd have loved to have the whole gang at all the important gatherings, like Sam being at Leo's wedding or Charlie being at Ellie's wedding, I thought scheduling and actor availability might have played a role.

 

I didn't dwell on the missing people too much but it was offset with ones they got back. I mean, I'm no Amy fan but I liked her inclusion at Leo's funeral because it was more about the actors than the characters. That is precisely why I thought Rob Lowe would've made it if he could 

I have to admit to being bothered by Sam not being at the funeral for Leo. I get they were saving his reappearance for Josh to fly out and ask him to be DCOS, but really tell me Sam wouldn't have hopped a plane and come just for the day, he should have been there and he should have been a pall bearer not the bald guy, leader of the DNC??? I get it if Rob couldn't be there but then I wish it was at least mentioned in passing somehow, Ainsley showed up for crying out loud.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

53 minutes ago, twinkietwin94 said:

I have to admit to being bothered by Sam not being at the funeral for Leo. I get they were saving his reappearance for Josh to fly out and ask him to be DCOS, but really tell me Sam wouldn't have hopped a plane and come just for the day, he should have been there and he should have been a pall bearer not the bald guy, leader of the DNC??? I get it if Rob couldn't be there but then I wish it was at least mentioned in passing somehow, Ainsley showed up for crying out loud.

Even better would have been if he'd shown up with Ainsley. 

[twinkietwin94]

20 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Even better would have been if he'd shown up with Ainsley. 

Yes, yes, yes!

[Guest]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 9:49 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Even better would have been if he'd shown up with Ainsley. 

THIS.

When he revealed he was engaged in Season 7, I was really hoping it would be to Ainsley.  Like a "Surprise!!!!" But alas, it was not.

[twinkietwin94]

40 minutes ago, deaja said:

THIS.

When he revealed he was engaged in Season 7, I was really hoping it would be to Ainsley.  Like a "Surprise!!!!" But alas, it was not.

Me too!

[Crs97]

Quote

That whole line by Donna, how she did nothing but "grunt work" for Josh when she was his assistant. Well, yes, she did, but that's not all she did. She got to be the one who figured out that the one Senator who was Filibustering, had a grandchild who had autism. Isn't she just the smartest? She got to go with Josh, or in his place to read statements, which I thought was a huge mistake, because what if someone asked follow up questions? And they did, in South Dakota. She acted like a spoiled, petulant little brat when she didn't get her way, and Josh didn't fire her for it. So she can shut up about just being an office drone.

 I am still firmly on board the hating Donna train.  We are rewatching season seven and she is worse than I remember.  Josh reads the quotes she made about the Santos campaign and explains Santos doesn't trust the people he knows much less a stranger from another campaign, and she says it must be because he is threatened by her being in a position of authority?  Have several seats, Donna.

[Crs97]

Regarding Sam, was he supposedly back in private practice?  He had a senior position waiting for him in DC, and he decided to drop it for a corner office in California?  Never made sense to me.  Regarding Josh, they made him an ineffectual campaign manager.  Season seven was just a bunch of episodes when no one acts in character.

[Crs97]

Watching West Wing on Netflix and we just saw Martin Sheen's opening regarding John Spencer's death.  It was before "Running Mates."  Still makes me want to cry.

[kassygreene]

Sam was running for a Congressional seat in Orange County.  The Democrat who had been running had died, and the widow wanted someone to take his place instead of letting it be a joke (Democrats don't win the OC).

So the dead guy won the OC.  And Sam, who had made that promise somewhat impulsively and told no one back in the WW, was named on election night as the guy who would be in the new election - which is how the WW staff found out.

This was when Rob Lowe had decided to leave the show.  There was one later episode where the Prez & staff flew to OC to help him campaign, and managed to stumble every minute, starting with the President's convoy causing an important interstate to be shut down for a long time, leading to cars full of crying children who couldn't get to Disneyland (which is in OC), and getting progressively worse from there.

They never said in Show, but we generally infer that Sam lost, and went in to private practice in LA, where we saw Josh find him after Santos was elected.  He must have been good at it, because that was a very nice corner office.

[Crs97]

I know the storyline and the reason for it, but having Sam back in private practice doesn't ring true to his character.  He should have been involved in the California Democratic Party or with a political or nonprofit organization.  Deciding not to go back as senior counsel to the president in favor of corporate law?  Not Sam at all.

I forgot season 7 is basically CJ as President.  Leo was worried about Margaret staging a coup; he focused on the wrong woman.

[Crs97]

Thank goodness Lou and Donna are there to teach Josh how an election works.  I am amazed they haven't needed to teach him how to tie his shoes.  Plus I am stuck watching Donna and Josh in bed.  This is painful.

[Bastet]

13 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

Plus I am stuck watching Donna and Josh in bed.  This is painful.

Heh.  Drifting away somewhere in season six (probably early; I don't remember, but for a very long time I thought I'd quit in season five, so I can't have stuck around for long), I'm forever grateful for having been spared that image.  The very idea of them together romantically repulses me.

[Zola]

Well this is my first post on this forum, so don't be too hard on the new noob on the block :)

I have had many TWW DVD marathons over the years (actually I copied all 7 seasons onto my QNAP NAS box, to make life a little easier!); and I must confess to not only adoring the show, but also the much maligned (to some) seasons 6&7 - essentially the Campaign Seasons, and the gradual closure to the Bartlet Administration.

There were plenty of inconsistencies and annoyances in S7, but overall, I loved every episode, primarily because it took me away from the rather mundane goings-on back at TWW!

For myself, I was getting a little weary of Our Guys (Toby, Leo, CJ, Josh, Charlie et al) after 5 and half seasons; so I welcomed the Democratic & Presidential campaigns from the middle of S6 with open arms! CJ's promotion to CoS, and the ridiculous Toby/military shuttle story-line really hammered the last nail in that particular coffin!

So for me at least, I loved seeing some exterior shots (Santos campaigning in NH, to begin with), with a breath of fresh air, in all senses of the word; and with the presence of Alan Alda's, Arnie Vinick, added some gravitas to those particular episodes throughout the final two seasons.

I was also pleased to see Josh and Donna stretch their wings into new areas on the political arena - Josh as the overconfident Campaign Manager; and Donna, media adviser for the Northeast and Pacific Northwest, initially, to finally becoming CoS to the First Lady. It was great fun watching them both, especially the egocentric Josh.

A great show all round, but I have to say seasons 6, and in particular 7, remain my favourites after Seasons 2 & 3.

[Melancholy]

I also love S6-7. I still put S2, S3, and S4 ahead of them but I'd rank S6-7 over S1 and certainly S5. I love S1 too but I considered the Sam/Mallory/Laurie stories dull and annoying. When CJ/Danny is played like a real professional conflict and battle, it's very interesting. But when it's played like a "grab and kiss" fluffy romance, it's VERY annoying. And S1 would often dip towards the latter. A lot of the humor is overplayed in S1. I'll defend Mandy against her biggest detractors and there's even an interest in rewatching her knowing that she's so hated, but yeah, there WERE big acting and writing problems with her character and Moira Kelly's performance issues are glaring because this show has a huge but amazing cast. 

S6-7 had its "mistake long-term storylines" and disappointing new characters. But IMO, the only truly poor long-term story was Toby and the shuttle leak. And there, I think the idea was good but the execution was very poor. That kind of storyline should be a dramatic starring "fall from grace" big story instead of a method to write an actor off the show. I used to also put Jed's asshole behavior towards Leo and Israel at the start of S6 in this category- but I've made my peace with it and consider it part of an effective subtle story about Jed's rocky end of his administration because he was so obsessed with his legacy even though he lied about his health into office. 

I think the two disappointing new characters were Matt Santos and Kate Harper. They were both dull and overly perfect without the fire and wit and chaos that I love in this show. However, they both weren't Mandy-like failures. Mary McCormach is eh (but not Moira-bleh). Jimmy Smitts was great. And the campaign around Santos was terrific. Moreover with Santos, the writers were accomplishing a hard task to get the audience to love Santos as a Jed-replacement which are very big shoes and also to make it his campaign instead of a more offensive "Josh Lyman actually won the election." So, Santos was overly perfect. However once the hurdle was clear where the audience could believe in Santos as a good successor to Jed and responsible for his own campaign wins, I think S7 was very effectively showing the personality-problems in Santos to make him a more rounded character and essentially, turning his perfection against him. His "too cool for school and to be buddies with Josh" seemed more bad-ass at the start of the campaign, but it came across as more cold and disloyal with every passing day that Josh was working his heart out for Santos. His military "And the guns are big? Big guns?" cool could be unearned bravado when he dressed down the current national security team in Transition without having the power or fully classified knowledge to back up his anger. I really think Santos could have become one of the great, complex characters with more seasons to develop him. 

[Zola]

On 01/04/2017 at 5:11 PM, Melancholy said:

I also love S6-7. I still put S2, S3, and S4 ahead of them but I'd rank S6-7 over S1 and certainly S5. I love S1 too but I considered the Sam/Mallory/Laurie stories dull and annoying. When CJ/Danny is played like a real professional conflict and battle, it's very interesting. But when it's played like a "grab and kiss" fluffy romance, it's VERY annoying. And S1 would often dip towards the latter. A lot of the humor is overplayed in S1. I'll defend Mandy against her biggest detractors and there's even an interest in rewatching her knowing that she's so hated, but yeah, there WERE big acting and writing problems with her character and Moira Kelly's performance issues are glaring because this show has a huge but amazing cast. 

S6-7 had its "mistake long-term storylines" and disappointing new characters. But IMO, the only truly poor long-term story was Toby and the shuttle leak. And there, I think the idea was good but the execution was very poor. That kind of storyline should be a dramatic starring "fall from grace" big story instead of a method to write an actor off the show. I used to also put Jed's asshole behavior towards Leo and Israel at the start of S6 in this category- but I've made my peace with it and consider it part of an effective subtle story about Jed's rocky end of his administration because he was so obsessed with his legacy even though he lied about his health into office. 

I think the two disappointing new characters were Matt Santos and Kate Harper. They were both dull and overly perfect without the fire and wit and chaos that I love in this show. However, they both weren't Mandy-like failures. Mary McCormach is eh (but not Moira-bleh). Jimmy Smitts was great. And the campaign around Santos was terrific. Moreover with Santos, the writers were accomplishing a hard task to get the audience to love Santos as a Jed-replacement which are very big shoes and also to make it his campaign instead of a more offensive "Josh Lyman actually won the election." So, Santos was overly perfect. However once the hurdle was clear where the audience could believe in Santos as a good successor to Jed and responsible for his own campaign wins, I think S7 was very effectively showing the personality-problems in Santos to make him a more rounded character and essentially, turning his perfection against him. His "too cool for school and to be buddies with Josh" seemed more bad-ass at the start of the campaign, but it came across as more cold and disloyal with every passing day that Josh was working his heart out for Santos. His military "And the guns are big? Big guns?" cool could be unearned bravado when he dressed down the current national security team in Transition without having the power or fully classified knowledge to back up his anger. I really think Santos could have become one of the great, complex characters with more seasons to develop him. 

 

I used to have a high regard for S1, despite the constant, and mostly annoying, Mandy tropes. It was a fresh show trying to make politics sexy and accessible to the viewing masses in order to get them on board for the long and hopeful journeys into S2 and beyond.

When I first watched S1 in 2001 (and only then discovered it by accident through channel surfing and ending up on episode 2 or 3 I think), I was hugely impressed with the writing; and that this was going to make for some serious TV drama, but without making it too boring and overly convoluted to make people tune out.

So the fluffy romances were kind of expected I guess, beginning with the edgy Sam/Laurie opener, that I initially had reservations about, probably because I was thinking  "Oh dear, this is going to be a soap drama isn't it!" Quickly followed by the Sam/Mallory, Josh/Mandy thing; the Danny/CJ thing, and the Leo/Jenny thing. I was worried that S1 would just be all about the on/off romances first and the real nuts & bolts politics a distant second. And even now, after repeating viewings, I still feel S1 is a bit lightweight, even though it has some terrific episodes, when the politics took front and centre stage.

As for the back end of S5 and early S6. I am probably in the minority here, but I quite enjoyed the Jed/Leo conflict and eventually breakdown. For me it added a little realism to this long-going old pal's act going on between them. To see Leo wandering in the woods and subsequently suffering a heart attack, was one of the dramatic highlights, and brought us into focus that even clever guys like Leo are not immune from the odd prod from the hooded Guy with the Scythe! (That said, I didn't like the subsequent "Oh what have I done!?" drama from Jed in the hospital; running concurrently with the other hospital drama going on over in Germany with Donna/Josh!!)

I liked Santos right from the off though. He had a certain charisma that would somehow drag you along into believing in the character, even though he was no intellectual heavyweight like Bartlet. I quite enjoyed his constant run-ins with Josh as his campaign manager, and the revelation that Santos didn't think he would be in the Democratic nomination race for more than a couple of months; while Josh had given up everything at the White House to see Santos get to the bitter end.

But I also think the arrival of the  Arnie "we've got no one who can beat him!" Vinick, played by Alan Alda, was a masterstroke! To go with a fairly middle-of-the-road conservative rather than some manic tooled-up Ramboesque parody, was perfect for the show. And as Donna pointed out "you've got a year to convince me not to vote for him!" (or something like that).

So it was terrific seeing Josh & Santos go head to head with Vinick & Bruno - and to a lesser extent Sheila (although I wasn't overly keen on Lou or Jane.) It was good seeing Josh struggle keeping the campaign on track with concerns that he might not be the man for the job after all. I felt Bradley did a wonderful job with that moment - the self-doubt and petulance not least. I was so beholden to the campaigns that I really couldn't give a crap what happened back at the White House and all the silliness that was going on there!

That said, I didn't like the Leo/Annabeth flirtatiousness - perceived or otherwise; and neither did I like the "happy" romantic culmination between Josh and Donna - felt so tacked on in my book. 

Great ending to a truly marvellous series. 

[Melancholy]

3 hours ago, Only Zola said:

As for the back end of S5 and early S6. I am probably in the minority here, but I quite enjoyed the Jed/Leo conflict and eventually breakdown. For me it added a little realism to this long-going old pal's act going on between them. To see Leo wandering in the woods and subsequently suffering a heart attack, was one of the dramatic highlights, and brought us into focus that even clever guys like Leo are not immune from the odd prod from the hooded Guy with the Scythe! (That said, I didn't like the subsequent "Oh what have I done!?" drama from Jed in the hospital; running concurrently with the other hospital drama going on over in Germany with Donna/Josh!!)

I have mixed feelings on the Jed v. Leo fight. I did appreciate a conflict finally because it was unrealistic that Jed and Leo were purely awesome buddies in the White House pressure cooker. I LOVED the Memorial Day split between the flashbacks between a newbie, grateful, just-won President Elect Bartlet thanking and crediting Leo for his win and saying Leo should be the President and the present day seasoned, power-confident second-term President Bartlet fully preoccupied with how his President will be regarded in 2 years dismissing Leo as Not!The!President!.  Leo having a heart attack in the woods was very effective and made me cry. However, I don't believe that any American President would have reacted to Palestinian bombing of his delegation of highly placed officials by pressuring Israel to give up land for peace. Even the PLO just stunningly demonstrated that they either couldn't control individual bad actors or don't care about violent actions- and as a result, can't deliver the peace they are promising in exchange for land. I don't think any person with an ounce of sense who's actually charged with protecting the free world instead of pontificating from a lefty college campus would do that. To say nothing of how I don't see an Israeli prime minister making such a disastrous deal. I do read the story darkly as Jed was obsessed with his legacy, above all, and he was lurching for an Epic Grand Bargain out of the ashes of his dead countrymen including Fitzwallace. It was a dramatic cousin of Selina Myer on Veep jumping up and down about how she'll be credited with freeing Tibet, without any regard to the other parts of the big deal with China. However even with the darker reading, I still see the deal as politically unrealistic and incredibly offensive that the show was presenting it as an attainable reality if Israel just took a leap of faith that Palestinians could deliver peace without any mechanism to guarantee same. 

I also thought that Josh/Donna/photographer triangle was boring and the dropped storyline from Memorial Day of Josh playing a secret role in Germany was ridiculous. 

Quote

But I also think the arrival of the  Arnie "we've got no one who can beat him!" Vinick, played by Alan Alda, was a masterstroke! To go with a fairly middle-of-the-road conservative rather than some manic tooled-up Ramboesque parody, was perfect for the show. And as Donna pointed out "you've got a year to convince me not to vote for him!" (or something like that)

I loved Alan Alda as Vinick, full-stop. He had a very similar charisma as Jed where he was half self-aware of his role in the flawed American system and half-carried away with the romanticism of being (or wanting to be) the Beloved King. Jed, Vinick, and actually CJ all have that kind of dry humor about them which I find incredibly appealing. I thought Santos was boringly perfect most of the time- but I agree that he was magnetic and I could see exactly what Josh saw in him. Agreed that Shelia and Bruno were very interesting- although Shelia should have been developed further. I loved Lou too. But I agree that Jane was a thinly drawn Christian right hatchet-woman whose only pretense to complexity rested in how Melinda McGraw is very sexy despite her conservative cut-throat role. Which really isn't enough, and a cliche in itself. But Jane wasn't around very long. 

I did like the Leo/Annabeth dynamic. I never read it as a straight-forward romance- but instead, Annabeth had a odd mentor-crush. Which happens. I mainly viewed their dynamic as platonic and felt Kristin Chenoweth and John Spencer worked well together and they were very funny together. I never liked Josh/Donna- but I guess, it was inevitable. I was in favor of them getting them together by S7, just because I think it'd be a jerk move of the series to tease the romance for 7 years and never deliver at all. Still even though I was open to Josh/Donna, I think they were gotten together very clumsily. Donna's work for Bingo Bob created a real conflict and earned resentment from Josh. I actually LOVED the scene where Josh denied her application for a job with Santos campaign in the first ep of S7. Possibly my favorite Josh/Donna scene. And Donna really resented Josh for his domineering affect and she exploded with hatred:

JOSH: Did he tell you campaigns require loyalty; you don't go working for the other guy?

DONNA: Who happened to be the Party's front-runner.

JOSH: You knew I wasn't supporting him. Me, your mentor in professional politics.

DONNA: The guy who taught me to answer the phone, who kept me in grunt-level servitude because I knew he liked his hamburgers burnt like hockey pucks?

JOSH: You ditched me when I gave you a career.

DONNA: As a short-order cook, I'm still waiting for the spatula to...

"Kept my in grunt level servitude" are the words of an epic grudge. However, none of this was dealt with. It was all brushed under the rug in the hurry to get Josh and Donna in bed together. 

Annoying Josh/Donna storyline aside, I really agree Josh/Brad were terrific in the last two seasons. The combination of self-doubt and petulance is exactly the right way to describe him. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Melancholy

[Zola]

On the subject of Vinick......

Spoiler

....after Santos wins the presidency, he goes on to make Vinick Secretary of State.

... Forgive my ignorance (I live in the UK so am not fully up on the American political process), but is it really possible for a President of one party to commandeer a statesman from the Opposition? Are there real factual precedents, or is this just fanciful bipartisan thinking?

[Melancholy]

It's entirely legal and possible to nominate a cabinet member from an opposition party. It does happen. Obama actually retained/nominated a number of very highly placed officials who were registered Republicans who publicly stated a very different view of foreign policy from Candidate Obama- Gates as Secretary of Defense, Comey as FBI director, Petraus as CIA Director. However, it's unusual for a President to have an opposition party member in a very high position in their cabinet. And I think you have to go back to the famous Team of Rivals Abraham Lincoln presidency when the US, itself, was fractured to really find cabinet members who publicly opposed and campaigned against the President. But it's still possible. In fact, using Obama again, Hillary Clinton was a member of his party but he made her Secretary of State after battling a long, hard-fought, at-time-furious primary run.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Melancholy

[Zola]

Not sure why, but one of my favourite S7 moments is from the first episode - "The Ticket", very near the end where we have Leo and Santos in the latter's office. Leo is wondering what kind of VP Santos wants him to be, and Santos just wants him to stump, smile for the cameras and think about a plan to speed up the transition into power should they win the presidency.

Then we have Josh sitting outside the office, replying to Bram's question of "what are they doing in there?"

"Making plans!" he says. 

I just love that special moment - not sure exactly why, but I just do.

[Zola]

So.... have just completed "Tomorrow" and yet another WW back2back marathon (must be about my 9th now).

In fact it's been a couple of days since Abbey & Jed flew off into the sunset, and already I am getting twitchy feet! (Well, not feet exactly, perhaps fingers would be more appropriate?)

In moments of weakness I would normally go straight back to the pilot and start over again! But I know my "addiction" can be quite a (unwelcome) distraction for those around me.

I could just "man up" (is there a feminine  equivalent per chance?) and just turn my back on the show for say 12 months. But I have done this before and my "cold turkey" (don't tell Eric and Troy) lasted all of 6 weeks I think.

I think I need a secret plan to fight this.......

[Moose135]

39 minutes ago, Only Zola said:

I think I need a secret plan to fight this.......

Resistance is futile... ;-)

[Zola]

22 hours ago, Moose135 said:

Resistance is futile... ;-)

It certainly is because I have already caved!

However, I have compromised: I have rolled back to the middle of S6 (basically the very beginning of the campaigns with Josh meeting up with Santos in Houston) I could have gone back to the pilot but my partner (whom, quite incredibly, is NOT a fan) has threatened to pummel me with her 2nd favourite bean-bag! Basically saying "If I hear that bloody theme tune again I will cheerfully kill you, and then kill you some more!"

So much so that I am watching these latter episodes literally undercover!

But at least a little bit of sanity has returned to my lopsided world 

(However, sooner or later she will give me the ultimate of ultimatums "The West Wing or Me! Which is it?")

 

Hmmmm....

Edited April 26, 2017 by Only Zola

[Moose135]

1 minute ago, Only Zola said:

However, sooner or later she will give me the ultimate of ultimatums "The West Wing or Me! Which is it?"

She better be ready for your answer before asking that question. ;-)

[Guest]

On 4/25/2017 at 11:19 AM, Only Zola said:

 

I think I need a secret plan to fight this.......

You need a secwet pwan to fight West Wing addiction.

[Driad]

Might you mollify her with matching muumuus?

[Zola]

5 hours ago, Moose135 said:

She better be ready for your answer before asking that question. ;-)

I would imagine my partner will do an "Amy" on me - ie she will give me the "Don't talk to me!" treatment; and if things really do fall apart, she will drop my phone in any pot of stew I might be cooking or tying me up in tape!

1 hour ago, Driad said:

Might you mollify her with matching muumuus?

Don't think there's much call for muumuus here in chilly old England, 

Am currently watching "Opposition Research" with headphones on, and already she has said to me "You're watching that show again, aren't you!?" And then left the room (Pity she didn't say than an hour ago while I was watching "In The Room", because she would have been in the room too, before leaving the room, ha!)

ho hum.

[BW Manilowe]

On 4/26/2017 at 10:53 AM, Only Zola said:

It certainly is because I have already caved!

However, I have compromised: I have rolled back to the middle of S6 (basically the very beginning of the campaigns with Josh meeting up with Santos in Houston) I could have gone back to the pilot but my partner (whom, quite incredibly, is NOT a fan) has threatened to pummel me with her 2nd favourite bean-bag! Basically saying "If I hear that bloody theme tune again I will cheerfully kill you, and then kill you some more!"

So much so that I am watching these latter episodes literally undercover!

But at least a little bit of sanity has returned to my lopsided world 

(However, sooner or later she will give me the ultimate of ultimatums "The West Wing or Me! Which is it?")

 

Hmmmm....

If you watch on a computer or DVD player, maybe invest in a pair of headphones/earphones /earbuds/EarPods, etc. But not the "noise-cancelling" kind or you'll still have issues. They might help keep the peace somewhat.

[morakot]

Just finished Season 7 for the first time and now have to go back to the real life presidency and West Wing... I'd do a lot to have a Gary Stu president that looked like Jimmy Smits and could speak in complete sentences.

Never liked Josh or Donna so the fact that they ended up together was deserved. I'm presuming Donna's absence from the Library scene at the start of Season 7 was because she was with the First Lady? Or because she and Josh had broken up -- after all, her office was about 4 times bigger than that of the COS... ;-)

Anyway, I laughed and cried (a lot) and will go back and rewatch.

[rippleintime17]

I am pretty sure that library scene was shot before the ultimate ending was decided upon. 

[Moose135]

7 minutes ago, rippleintime17 said:

I am pretty sure that library scene was shot before the ultimate ending was decided upon. 

Or it was deliberately shot to be ambiguous, so as not to give away too much of how the season would go.

[AriAu]

Quote

Or it was deliberately shot to be ambiguous, so as not to give away too much of how the season would go.

I am pretty sure that they said it was to keep it up in the air....and over at TWOP the vcrs (yes, it has been a long time)  were working overtime on those few minutes like it was the Zapruder film.

[kassygreene]

It was shot at the beginning of season 7, and after John Spencer died they had to go back and re-watch to make sure there weren't any continuity problems.  At that point in Season 7 (i.e., very early), they say they hadn't decided who would win; JS's death helped tip it to Santos, as things were already sad enough.  To this day I can't tell if the Prez exiting the limo was meant to be Santos or Vinnick; both actors were tall, and I think they just used a tall stand-in.

[Crs97]

I have always heard that, but then I wonder why Josh would be smiling as he announced the president had arrived if it weren't Santos.