S03.E08: Novus Ordo Seclorum

[Moonsky]

1.) Good episode overall. I thought all the actors from the main players in the present to those in the flashbacks gave good performances. I have to single out Nicole Beharie because I really enjoyed all the interactions Abbie had with each character she shared a scene with. It was kind of similar to how good Nicole was throughout the season two finale.

 

2.) Loved all the scenes between Abbie, Reynolds, & Sophie because it felt like they were written well from each person’s perspective. After last week’s episode, I was hoping that there would be a satisfying confrontation between Abbie & Reynolds now that they both know they’ve been keeping each other in the dark about important things, so I like how the fall out played out onscreen. From the moment Reynolds was introduced, I was looking forward to potentially having scenes like these between them because of their history plus the likelihood of scenes like these happening any time soon involving the other relationships with characters that she cared about were slim when going by the writers patterns during seasons 1 &2. Most of the time whenever Abbie was taken for granted or betrayed by someone that she cared about, the writers would downplay it from her POV or have her bite her tongue, which usually resulted in her coddling the feelings of the other person, so I suspected that if I was ever really going to see her go off like other characters get to do over hurtful incidents, it would most likely happen with someone like Reynolds. I also like that Reynolds brought the anger from his POV too about Abbie not being truthful with him. There were both spoken & unspoken words from both of them about the situation they found themselves in. Also, after Abbie kept giving Sophie attitude, I liked that Sophie brought up the fact that she wasn’t the one who lied to Abbie, it was Reynolds. Since Reynolds has been keeping tabs on “the asset” for months, he & his boss probably were hoping they could mold & use the “diamond in the rough” for their own purposes.

 

3.)  I’ve been looking forward to more scenes between Abbie & Pandora since their first meeting in the bar because I like Nicole & Shannyn’s chemistry, so I loved that Abbie & Pandora had a scene that involved only the two of them going at each other.

 

4.) The Ichabod & Joe scenes were good in this episode. The actors have a nice chemistry & their characters seem to understand each other on a certain level.

 

5.) Jenny didn’t have that much to do being that she was possessed & trapped by her captors but she made sure to “fight back” with some insults to Pandora & The Hidden One.

 

6.) There were some nice moments between Abbie & Ichabod in the episode even with them sharing a good amount of screen time with other characters.

 

7.) Shoutout to Peter Mensah for still looking that physically fit at 56 years old.

 

8.) Looking forwarding to seeing how Abbie makes it out of Hell, the aftermath of Jenny’s possession, as well as what happens with all the main players during the second half of the season.

 

 

Tree: I was so focused on fearing for Jenny and thinking "don't you dare, show" that Abbie sacrificing herself didn't occur to me until she was holding the rock over Jenny. Oh the possibilities!!! I can't wait to see how they utilise it.

 

At this point, Abbie sacrificing herself for someone or over something can practically be penciled in under “Things likely to happen in a Sleepy Hollow fall or season finale for $200 Alex”.

 

Season 1 – Abbie sacrifices herself by going to Purgatory.
Season 2 – Abbie sacrifices herself by going back to Colonial America which included the days of legalized slavery in America.
Season 3 – Abbie sacrifices herself by going into a tree that leads to Hell.
Season 4 (if there is one) – Abbie sacrifices herself by going to “insert any number of places or time periods involving dire circumstances”.

 

 

And even though this "looks like when Abbie stayed in Purgatory", that's just not a valid comparison to what happened in this episode. Then, Abbie staying to "face Moloch" made NO sense - since she never really faced him (not really - she just burned him with the talisman and left. that's it.), proving that the ONLY reason for this was to trap Abbie in Purgatory for a long period of time and to allow Katrina to be out with Ichabod for a long period of time. I have NO doubt that Goffman wanted to leave Abbie there most of the season to let Ichatrina take over - but Fox put the kibosh on that - and the dollhouse stuff vanished and Abbie got out in the first episode of the season.

 

Yeah, at least this time around the sacrifice was about someone or something that deeply affected Abbie. Those other sacrifices, especially the season 1 stay in Purgatory was controversial & felt almost empty to a lot of people. One of those reasons why some people couldn’t get behind her doing it was because it was done for Katrina/The Cranes so early into knowing them, despite the show trying to paint it onscreen (& offscreen after TPTB got wind of some of the controversy surrounding it) as Abbie’s big heroic moment where she got to finally face Moloch again. Some felt the first sacrifice came out of nowhere because Abbie wasn’t going on & on during season one about needing to face Moloch right that minute, so it ended up coming off to some as the show simply doing it as a convenient excuse to get Katrina into the real world & The Cranes back together again while the producers/writers intentionally or unintentionally played into the “black mammy” trope.

 

During the season one finale, they writers even had Katrina say that after Abbie’s sacrifice which was replacing her in Purgatory, Katrina would replace Abbie again as soon as the mission was done but if someone was paying even a slight amount of attention to how the producers (especially Goffman) glowing spoke about Katrina & their plans for her/Ichatrina/their family drama after season one ended (even though she only had a small amount of screen time compared to the other main characters in season one), they would’ve known before season two began that Katrina wasn’t going back to Purgatory no matter what, so if Abbie was going to get out of there it was going to have to be by any other option that didn’t involve Katrina making any sort of sacrifice even for the lead female character. The result was that Abbie’s Purgatory stay ended up coming across to some viewers like the show was doing their own version of the common Hollywood television/movie narrative (when produced/written by a white person), where a black character (& in this case even when she’s a lead character), will almost always be expected to sacrifice themselves/their happiness in any given situation for a white character’s happiness no matter how little that person means to the black character. Since it was in season one where the complicated relationship between Abbie & Jenny was introduced, TPTB probably wouldn’t have had as much backlash if they had Abbie sacrificing herself for Jenny (her family) in that season finale, instead of what they did by having her do it for Katrina (& Ichabod too), which amounted to her basically doing it for a stranger at that point, so the emotional impact wasn’t as strong as it could’ve been.

[Yolapukka]

 

It looked to me like the box was destroyed by the energy released from the tree after Abbie went in there.  If so, does that mean all the monsters are unleashed?

 

This. I'm sure the box will be in play, but it's the absence of it that will be significant, not Ichabod's access to it. From what I saw, it's not where it was if it still exists at all. Was it irrevocably destroyed and what are the consequences of that destruction? Is it elsewhere? If so, where or what is elsewhere? Is it something broken that requires a specific sort of fix?

 

I'm sure we are going to see Ichabod wrestling with the morality of what is necessary for him to bring Abbie back, but I don't think it will be as simple as opening the box to let a controlled selection of monsters out to make the tree blossom again. The box must be either located or reassembled first and it's nature defined, is it a container or a portal?

[Eun Soo]

Another solid episode – I like what the new show runner is doing, and can’t wait for the back half in February.  Here’s what I liked best about this episode.

 

“Brightest, most learned minds in academia” – I’m sure the cheesy toga scene was intended to add some humor (I was amused because I love the cheese especially right after Crane’s pontificating), but it wasn’t necessary since Agents Clueless (Reynolds and Sophie) are providing me with all the humor I need.

 

Agents Clueless Greatest Hits:

 

1. Sophie to Abbie – “share what you know”, “where’s Jenny”, “we trying to help you.”  Does she really think Abbie is that dumb?  It’s obvious who needs help and it’s not Abbie. 

 

2. Sophie to Nevins – threat, threat, threat, “I like you,” “I want to do you a solid,” and “we can protect you.”  Nevins laughs (so did I) before asking for Abbie, and Sophie thinks Nevins is trying to play her. She’s either clueless about the supernatural goings on or she’s not too bright.  I like Sophie, so I vote for the latter.

 

3. Sophie to Reynolds – “He’s likely injured.”  Sure he is.  I wonder how much money the FBI will spend looking for Nevins.  Btw, did Pandora eat him?

 

4. Reynolds to Abbie – “You do not walk out on me, I’m your superior officer,” and later it was “if you can’t give me the answers I need.”  Either this guy doesn’t know Abbie or he’s so emotionally involved that he can’t help himself.  I know he’s pissed and understand why he feels that way, but if Abbie is really an asset the FBI is cultivating, shouldn’t he be a little more diplomatic/accommodating because Abbie was looking for a way to make it work.  When he gave the ultimatum, she walked away without looking back, and that is not a good sign.  Here’s hoping Joe uses his inheritance to buy the archives and stock the armory so Team Witness can all quit their day jobs. 

 

5. Reynolds to Sophie – “She’s trained to wage war.”  Yes she is, but not by you or the FBI. Clueless.

 

6. Reynolds to Sophie – “I need you to find her.” I don’t know if Abbie will want to come back, but even if she does, she’s smart enough to wonder why the FBI would want her back.  However, I doubt the FBI and Reynolds will let Abbie go without a fight.  Maybe they’ll threaten to go after Jenny and/or Crane since both are soft targets.  Of course, the fact that the FBI wants to make Abbie an asset instead of forming a partnership with her indicates a serious lack of understanding about what is really going on. 

 

Favorite things:

 

1. I love that Pandora is still fascinated with Abbie, and was actively trying to recruit her with “there is a place for you two witnesses in our new world order, you have a right by lineage” immediately followed by a Jenny taunt.  I wonder if her witness taunting will be transferred to Crane while Abbie is in the underworld.  I can her hear now saying something like – of all the witnesses I’ve encountered throughout time, she shone brightest, such a tragedy that her fellow witness continually failed her – or something along those lines.  Crane will already be devastated, so everyone and everything should pile on – Pandora taunts, Reynolds threatens deportation, etc, while Crane struggles with love that grips the heart, forcing logic to abandon the mind.  I want to see him cross some lines.  However, I don’t want Abbie gone for more than one episode, so maybe not.

 

2.  “I mean it, wait for the beep.”  I hope that the show will put some of Crane’s messages up on their website the way they did with Abbie’s phone after Tempus Fugit.

 

3. “Roger that.”  “Hardily seconded.”  Joe/Crane dynamic really works.  I loved Irving, but Joe fits better with Crane.

 

4. “This plan of ours is crazy.”  “Is that a question?” “Ready to fight some bad guys Crane?”  “Indeed.” “My man.”  Everything about that scene was Ichabbie perfection.

 

5. Crane and Pandora’s Box off - First he tasered her, then he fought her for her box.  Way to go Crane!  Maybe Pandora will be less arrogant and dismissive of the witnesses in the future.  Btw, I thought the taser worked because electricity is a natural element and most of the ancient gods had a natural element as their power.

 

6. Control freak Abbie – Although I enjoyed seeing Abbie a little out of control in her scenes with Reynolds and Sophie, as well as her impatience with Crane’s pontificating, I enjoyed her most as she called the shard back to its container and opened the tree to save her loved ones.  I could be wrong, but I thought Abbie called on her power as a Witness to do both those things.  Wonder if she will come back from the underworld permanently bonded to the those shard remnants.

 

7. “We shall be together in all things.”  The hidden one (THO) didn’t complete his power transfer, which will probably make it more difficult for him to transform the world as he wishes, and I bet he’ll blame the wife for that.  The guy doesn’t seem easy to please, and I doubt Pandora will put up with that for long.  I think this is foreshadowing the melt down of Pandora and her hubby’s love with Pandora switching sides to defeat THO.  Team Witness could use some gray. 

 

8. Destruction of Pandora’s Box – this allows Headless back into the world. 

 

9. No SBR or zzzZoe – If the show is determined to keep zzzZoe around, make her evil.  She could be the daughter of a hessian or head witch of the dark coven that Headless visits to find out what is going on with the witnesses.  As for SBR, I can’t think of anything that would make her palatable.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Eun Soo

[phoenics]

Yeah - originally I thought Ichabod could use the box to unleash monsters, grow the roses and use those to open the (newly grown) tree portal to get Abbie back.

But the box was destroyed.

I really hope the remaining monsters were unleashed and not destroyed - Headless was in there and we need him back! Just Headless though, hope Abraham was somehow destroyed, lol. Leave the horseman with no humanity.

I do wonder how they will get Abbie back. Ichabod still has that book of spells that Abbie found - I wonder if there is something there that would help him?

[phoenics]

During the season one finale, they writers even had Katrina say that after Abbie’s sacrifice which was replacing her in Purgatory, Katrina would replace Abbie again as soon as the mission was done but if someone was paying even a slight amount of attention to how the producers (especially Goffman) glowing spoke about Katrina & their plans for her/Ichatrina/their family drama after season one ended (even though she only had a small amount of screen time compared to the other main characters in season one), they would’ve known before season two began that Katrina wasn’t going back to Purgatory no matter what, so if Abbie was going to get out of there it was going to have to be by any other option that didn’t involve Katrina making any sort of sacrifice even for the lead female character. The result was that Abbie’s Purgatory stay ended up coming across to some viewers like the show was doing their own version of the common Hollywood television/movie narrative (when produced/written by a white person), where a black character (& in this case even when she’s a lead character), will almost always be expected to sacrifice themselves/their happiness in any given situation for a white character’s happiness no matter how little that person means to the black character. Since it was in season one where the complicated relationship between Abbie & Jenny was introduced, TPTB probably wouldn’t have had as much backlash if they had Abbie sacrificing herself for Jenny (her family) in that season finale, instead of what they did by having her do it for Katrina (& Ichabod too), which amounted to her basically doing it for a stranger at that point, so the emotional impact wasn’t as strong as it could’ve been.

Even worse, it was clear that the show (Goffman) was trying to sideline Abbie to give Ichatrina time to grow and clearly he expected by the time of that painting episode that the fans would be chomping at the bit for Colonial Hart to Hart.

I still firmly believe Goffman was trying to replace Abbie with Katrina - maybe NB would still be there, but her lead status would effectively be gone. A la Katie Cassidy on Arrow losing her lead spot to EBR.

Fans sniffed that out as soon as the Purgatory scene happened, which is why many are panicking about this particular development, even though I am certain the outcome here will be far better for Abbie, the fandom and Ichabbie and the show.

[phoenics]

9. No SBR or zzzZoe – If the show is determined to keep zzzZoe around, make her evil.  She could be the daughter of a hessian or head witch of the dark coven that Headless visits to find out what is going on with the witnesses.  As for SBR, I can’t think of anything that would make her palatable.

I actually think the purpose of SBR and zzzzZoey are less sinister. They are metaphors and foils (just like ALL of the other relationships on the show). I wrote a post in the relationships thread to delve into this - my theory is that they are metaphors and foils for Ichabbie... and why Ichabbie is right, but both of Ichabod's relationships with zzzzZoey and SBR exist to promote Ichabbie... SBR's is easy - she said it herself when talking about the right woman for Crane would make him do something nuts. zzzZoey is a bit more complex and I wrote more in the relationships thread so as not to clutter this one.

Edited November 22, 2015 by phoenics

[Enero]

Favorite things:

 

1. I love that Pandora is still fascinated with Abbie, and was actively trying to recruit her with “there is a place for you two witnesses in our new world order, you have a right by lineage” immediately followed by a Jenny taunt.  I wonder if her witness taunting will be transferred to Crane while Abbie is in the underworld.  I can her hear now saying something like – of all the witnesses I’ve encountered throughout time, she shone brightest, such a tragedy that her fellow witness continually failed her – or something along those lines.  Crane will already be devastated, so everyone and everything should pile on – Pandora taunts,

 

I'm intrigued by Pandora's specific fascination with Abbie. She's had opportunities to come to Crane and taunt him when Abbie was down for the count, but didn't. However, she introduces herself to Abbie in 3x1. In 3x4 she comes to Abbie and briefly talk about the horrors of her life at the hands of her father and wonders what drives Abbie, stating how she's different from the past witnesses. In 3x5, she taunts Abbie as Crane lay appearing to be dying in her arms and in the fall finale she asks Abbie to take her place in the new world she and her deity husband plan to build.

 

The only time I can recall her taunting Crane was in 3x6. I believe, when she told Crane she knew what it was like to be in the presence of someone who was much greater than herself, I think she was referring to Abbie, not herself. So what does that mean? We know that Abbie is a witness, but is there something specific about her destiny that makes her more special than Crane? Or is it  simply that Abbie is fascinating because she doesn't seek death or glory, that's not what's driving her as a witness, but that her personal struggles, wanting to not fail her sister again, wanting to protect her at all costs and her fear of loneliness in her witnesses duties - which has been a theme that's come up numerous time with Abbie this season, is what's driving her.

 

I hope that we'll see this explored and that we'll find out if there is more to Pandora's fascination with Abbie.

[Helena Dax]

I wanted something a bit  more intense (a god should be more powerful, even a weakened god), but I  enjoyed the episode and I just can't  wait to see Ichabod's reaction  to Abbie's "death". Oh,  the sweet angst!  I guess they'll start to fall in  love in the second half of this season.  I mean,  they already love each  other, but are  they already  in love? I don't think so, not yet. And while Ichabod might have  been having some naughty thoughts regarding Abbie, if she's feeling that attraction, I don't see  it yet,  either. 

[bethy]

I think Ichabod already is in love with Abbie, though not quite aware of it yet. I agree that Abbie's not there with him. I think the potential of watching Ichabod court Abbie, even if not overtly, as they go about their work as witnesses could be really wonderful.

[possibilities]

I think Abbie needs to see that Ichabod is really there for her, after all the shenanigans with K and then how he disappeared on her for months afterward. He talks about how he's afraid to lose her, but he's the one who's been absent and waffled on commitment.

[possibilities]

As for how to handle getting her back, I recall that Crane and the team used to consult people with inside knowledge of the particular forces they were facing-- he had friends in the Native community in season one, who helped them with a case, and more recently they sought insight from... I can't remember what the situation was, but it involved an herbal treatment and the shop owner's eyes went white as though possessed for a minute.

 

ANYWAY, what I'm getting at is that Pandora comes from Greek mythology. Maybe some delving into her story with the help of an appropriate expert would give them some insight into how to defeat her and her hubs, and get Abbie back.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Right On The Money
Sleepy Hollow's first half goes out with a buck.

[jhlipton]

Shoutout to Peter Mensah for still looking that physically fit at 56 years old.

 

He and Ming-Na Wen (Melinda May on Agents of SHIELD -- 52!!!) need to have do something together somewhere!

[allyw]

This season has been much better than the last one but I can't say that I love any of the individual episodes as much as I did the first few of season one. However, I really enjoyed this episode and can finally say that I'm looking forward to next one.

I see some of you guys are thinking that ichabbie, in the romantic sense, could happen in the back half and even though I'm indifferent to them at this point I definitely agree. The Ichabod and Joe scenes over the last few episodes laid the groundwork for Ichabod to realize he's in love with Abbie. Abbie on the other hand, however doesn't seem to have much interest in romantic Ichabod though that could change and would be interesting to see her open up with a love interest.

[phoenics]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Right On The Money

Sleepy Hollow's first half goes out with a buck.

This review missed the mark... and the point, imo. The writer claims to have loved it - but that's not how the review read - and I'm stunned... no mention of the foreshadowing? Nothing? Just... bleh...

And the writer didn't get the big emotional issue with Abbie going into the tree and sacrificing herself? yeah... okay.

Well, I don't "get" this review.

Edited November 23, 2015 by phoenics

[Moonsky]

Even worse, it was clear that the show (Goffman) was trying to sideline Abbie to give Ichatrina time to grow and clearly he expected by the time of that painting episode that the fans would be chomping at the bit for Colonial Hart to Hart.

I still firmly believe Goffman was trying to replace Abbie with Katrina - maybe NB would still be there, but her lead status would effectively be gone. A la Katie Cassidy on Arrow losing her lead spot to EBR.

Fans sniffed that out as soon as the Purgatory scene happened, which is why many are panicking about this particular development, even though I am certain the outcome here will be far better for Abbie, the fandom and Ichabbie and the show.

 

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying regarding what Goffman had planned for season 2 as it relates to Abbie & Katrina. I really can’t comment on the Colonial Hart to Hart episode though because I got sick of the quality of season 2’s writing & the sidelining/backburning of certain characters, so I checked out after the fall finale. I only started watching again when I heard the changes that would take place would be reflected in the last two episodes of the season. After the season ended I decided to also watch the episode that Sharif Atkins guest starred in as Calvin & the karaoke episode. Besides those four episodes that I mentioned, I’ve still never seen the rest from the second half which includes the one about the painting where Ichatrina teams up but from your & other accounts, that seems to be the feeling that some took away from that episode & I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Goffman’s intent.

 

Even though Abbie is a lead character & Katrina was supporting, at least I will always be able to say that I was never shocked at how much he “valued” the character of Katrina over Abbie because he was always so blatant about his love for Katrina in the press & by having characters constantly co-sign her reckless/selfish decisions on the show by making excuses for why she made them. Goffman could literarily give an interview about SH, continuously wax on about Katrina, & never bring up Abbie’s name unless the interviewer did, so the man was always perfectly clear about where his interest lied. What I never really understood about him though, was if he “loved” Katrina so much & thought she was such a badass female character, why was the writing for her so pathetic/weak? When some people didn’t see what Goffman say in her, he continued to publicly argue against pretty much the consensus from the press & a large part of fandom that the writing for her did in fact represent a strong female character, when those people that disagreed with him were looking at the writing for Abbie & Jenny (despite some of its faults) & constantly shaking their heads no at him in response to his beliefs.

 

I have a couple of issues with season 3 here & there but IMO in terms of overall writing it is already better than season 2. Cliff would’ve had to be downright awful as a showrunner for me to not think he was already better than Goffman.

 

He and Ming-Na Wen (Melinda May on Agents of SHIELD -- 52!!!) need to have do something together somewhere!

 

At first when I read your comment I was like WTH, how is Ming-Na Wen 52 years old because I thought she was around 45. I became familiar with her in the 1990s but I thought she was in her mid 20s at the most back then but if she was already around 30 at that time, then being 52 makes sense. Wow she is really aging beautifully!

[HalcyonDays]

I’ve still never seen the rest from the second half which includes the one about the painting where Ichatrina teams up but from your & other accounts, that seems to be the feeling that some took away from that episode & I wouldn’t be surprised if that was Goffman’s intent.

 

You didn't miss anything, tbh. And it had little bearing on the final two episodes, where the good stuff happened. And I wouldn't advise watching, unless you want to throw things at the TV.

 

What I never really understood about him though, was if he “loved” Katrina so much & thought she was such a badass female character, why was the writing for her so pathetic/weak?

 

That's the question everyone struggled with in season 2. Because it literally made no sense to anyone with even a modicum of logical thought ability.

 

The Ichabod and Joe scenes over the last few episodes laid the groundwork for Ichabod to realize he's in love with Abbie.

 

I think this too - let's hope that's the purpose of those scenes. So far, CC and company haven't "ship-teased" us for ratings, which is nice. There is a plan here, a far-reaching plan that is in motion, and is slowly unveiling itself, so I give huge kudos to CC for this.

 

I also really love the Joe/Crane scenes. They are both soldiers, and both are very close and devoted to the Mills sisters. The two of them have a nice dynamic that they can relate to each other, both as soldier, as man, and as man in love. I really glad they decided to bring Zach Appelman back, and he's an excellent addition for the Scooby Gang. Just as I want to see more Jenny/Crane scenes, I want to see more Joe/Crane scenes.

[Miss Dee]

I want to see some Abbie/Joe scenes. I have a feeling there could be a lot of meat there.

[phoenics]

I want to see some Abbie/Joe scenes. I have a feeling there could be a lot of meat there.

Me too - I also find I don't miss Irving as much as I thought... and Orlando Jones is still there on Social Media, fighting for the show and Ichabbie, lol.

[jhlipton]

I want to see some Abbie/Joe scenes. I have a feeling there could be a lot of meat there.

 

In all the best places, amirite?

[phoenics]

^^^ You are so bad, lol.

[jhlipton]

^^^ What gave you the first clue, Nancy Drew?  (paraphrased from OITNB)

[Badsamaritan]

Confession....I just now watched the episode. Like, for the first time. I didn't get to watch it when it first aired, then I got busy, and I finally just decided not to watch at all until today. And I'm here, in bed, sitting straight up after leaning completely into the last ten minutes, wiping away tears - ABBIE y'all! I CAN'T, sob!! - and trying to get my heart rate back to normal. That was a damn fine winter finale. Well done, Show.

30 minutes and counting...