People in charge (supposedly)

[camussie]

We collectively – Brad, Ian and myself — made a decision that the freshest thing to do was a complete, clean start. We accelerated all those New York stories, and I think that was the right choice. I think that gave the show a burst of new energy. It feels like a new show to me in that it’s much more young-adult than it’s ever been.

 

I think this is both truth and BS.  The set up for Blaine/Kurt getting engaged and Rachel getting Funny Girl all happened before Cory passed.  As for the truth part,  I would bet the tentative plan was to end season 5 with Rachel's FG debut and a cliffhanger on whether Finn will move to NY to continue his education or not.  He of course wasn't going to so season 6 would be Rachel deciding to ditch Broadway for Hollywood and finding it unsatisfying with at time jump in the last few episodes of season 6 where she decides to give it all up and return to Lima.   We are now getting the ditching Broadway part before the end of season 5 and the time jump between seasons.  

I just honestly don't know how they can write a 22 episode season (or 24 if RM claims is true) around Rachel deciding fame isn't all it is cracked up to be and returning to Lima to revive the glee club.  I really have no desire to see a girl who is wildly successful, with very little effort, spend several episodes angsting about how unsatisfying it all is.

Love how Ryan is trying to spin it it was his plan all along to shut down McKinley and move to New York.

 

Yeah that is special especially when he basically says if we didn't have that pesky "Finn belongs in Lima" problem we would have done this much sooner.   Please.  To me it obvious they moved to New York only because Fox finally brought the hammer down.  RM was oddly silent about this change for a long ass time and now he is speaking up about it and even taking credit for it.  I guess he stopped throwing a tantrum over his precious choir room being taken away.  Either that or Fox told him to get over it and go out there and do some damn press regarding the show.  

It just insults my intelligence that RM now tries to say they funded two narratives, including giving 5 people contracts, because he had this grand vision about Finn belonging at McKinley and everyone from the network on down bought into it.  Please.  They kept the choir room in hopes of spawning a second generation Glee juggernaut, concert tours and all, with the newbies.  RM and Kevin Reilly even said as much in many an early season 4 interview.  It failed (and would have even with Finn alive) so Fox mandated one narrative in hopes of merely keeping the show in the black.  Too bad it was way too little way too late.  

Still there are a lot of people who buy the revised truth that the only reason they kept Lima was because that is where Finn's story belonged and all of the sophomores were brought on to support his story.  I don't know why people believe it considering that even in season 4, especially the second half, Finn was a supporting character in Lima to Blaine/Sam, but they do.

Edited April 15, 2014 by camussie

[bravelittletoaster]

They just got to NY and they're already talking about leaving?  Jesus these people have ADD.

[camussie]

That too.  How many seasons did this show sell NY as the end all and be all?  To the point where I felt like I was being beat over the head with if you don't make it in NY in the performing arts it doesn't count.  In a well crafted story, I would certainly welcome the show backing away from such a narrow view of success.  This won't be such a story.  

Edited April 15, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

I will take all the crappy  rushed to success and Rachel getting everything easily storylines over her dropping it all for Lima.

That would be the worst ending for a character ever.

Also Ryan stop putting your decisions on the cast.  

Edited April 15, 2014 by tom87

[camussie]

I will take all the crappy  rushed to success and Rachel getting everything easily storylines over her dropping it all for Lima.

 

Seems to me it is probably all part of the same story plan.  They rushed through the journey to give her success all so she can decide that success isn't what she thought it would be so she drops it to return home to Lima.  When Finn was alive RM's plan was for her to return home to Finn and Lima (although I still doubt Fox would have funded two narratives for all of seasons 5 and 6 so they probably would have both returned to Lima).  Now that he is gone it will just be Lima she returns to.  

The other difference is they seem to be rushing through it even more than they already had planned (which was already quite a rush).

• Where as before Cory passed, I would guess that season 5 was going to end on Rachel's FG success and a "will Finn come to New York?" cliffhanger. Now I think it will end on a "what happens next with Rachel's career?" cliffhanger.
• Where as before I would guess that a "Rachel takes Hollywood by storm" story  would have happened a few episodes into season 6 (after they resolved the Finn cliffhanger from season 5), now it will happen at the start of season 6
• Where as before the time jump would have been the last chunk of episodes before series end now it will be between seasons 5 and 6 so we can spend almost a whole season showing Rachel's growing dissatisfaction with her meteoric success before she returns to Lima.

Either way Rachel's story is rushed and really has been ever since Rachel won winter showcase as a Freshman.  Certainly as far back as the first FG audition last spring which set up Rachel already achieving her dream not even a year out of high school.  

Edited April 15, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

Seems to me it is probably all part of the same story plan.

 

Orignally  if you belevie Ryan, Rachel would have left NY and back to Lima but there was still the possiblity she was still in show buisness doing movies or what not.  Still a crappy version by her leaving NY.  But now if she takes over Finn;s sotryline and leaves for Lima to be a teacher that would suck even more.

So yes I would still take the bad crappy rushed to success storyline over one that has her leaving for Lima ot teach and  droping show biz all together.

[camussie]

The point is there isn't the returning to Lima story (to be with Finn or to take over for Will) without the crappy rushed to success story. The set up for her giving it all up, Finn or no Finn, is that she achieves so much so fast and it isn't all that it is cracked up to be so she returns home.  Fans could have wanked well she really isn't giving it all up.  Rather she will still be involved in the business, with Lima as her home base, but I seriously doubt that is what would have been implied, especially if we look at what Rachel said in "The Quarterback."  And that isn't what will be implied if this plays out how it looks like it might.

This Lima ending seems to be the reason they have been rushing her success story for a long ass time now.  I think since mid season 4 but certainly that path was set with the FG audition last spring.  In other words they are all parts of the same story.  Not choices between two stories.  In RM's mind it seems the Lima ending is a natural conclusion for Rachel's story.  That her "pay-off" for never so much as breaking a sweat in her journey to the top is being able to say screw it all.  I am returning to my home.  

Finally it bears repeating that that planned ending sucked just as much for Finn.  Never taking a step out of his comfort zone (even though his journey learning to do that was THE story that was set up for him in the very first episode), holding newbies hands, putting his personal life on old in hopes that  Rachel would return to him some day was certainly not a winning story for him either no matter how much RM thinks "he belonged at McKinley."  I just bristle at the insinuation that well that ending was acceptable for Finn but sucked for Rachel.  It sucked for both of them and it resulted in both of them selling themselves incredibly short.  Both of them would have been giving up large parts of themselves to make an ending like that work.  

It just amazes me that, if this goes how many of us are speccing, that there is no one on the Glee production team saying yo this ending bites.

Edited April 15, 2014 by camussie

[Higgs]

If the only thing Will had ever done was rejuvenate the show choir he would have done more for society than the vast majority of people ever do. "Holding newbies hands" is what teachers (and parents) do, and it's a lot nobler and potentially more fulfilling than managing a hedge fund or singing "People" for tourists "taking in a show".

Whether Finn had been in NYC or Lima he could have been living a full life and not been pining for Rachel. Whether Rachel is in NYC or Hollywood or Lima, she could be making records or movies or performing in concerts or in limited-run Broadway musicals.

The worst way one can imagine RM had thought of telling the story is not the only way the Finchel ending could have been told.

The new ending?

Edited April 15, 2014 by Higgs

[camussie]

Why should people give RM and team the benefit of the doubt and assume the hackneyed Finn/Rachel ending or the even more hackneyed Rachel returns to Lima, even without Finn there, ending won't bite?  Their writing from season 2 onward has not earned them the benefit of the doubt. They have no goodwill left for many a viewer and rightfully so.  In a well written show I will gladly go on whatever journey they take me without second guessing where I am going.  See Breaking Bad.  Glee is not a well written show so they don't get my "faith" just a whole lot of well earned cynicism.  

[Higgs]

Full disclosure (in case anyone was wondering):
1. I am not Ryan Murphy, nor a relative, friend, friend of a friend, acquaintence, or even admirer of Ryan Murphy.
2. I am not being paid to say anything that could be construed as positive about Ryan Murphy.
3. I FFed part of a year of "Nip/Tuck" on Netflix to watch Jessalyn Gilsig, my favorite "adult" actor on "Glee".
4. I once watched a single episode of AHS. That won't happen again.
5. "Glee" has been mostly, but not completely, terrible for many years. There have been scenes that were gems.
6. The newbies, in general, and Melissa, in particular, are a lot more talented than Ryan Murphy allowed them to be seen to be.
7. I once thought the final scene would be Rachel's FG curtain call. I was wrong to believe it and even more wrong to want it. "Home" was much better.

[caracas1914]

I’m surprised people are still taking Ryan “I lie” Murphy at face value.

Let’s take one of the implications of his interview, that the McKinley Noobs had to be shut down because with Cory’s death, their purpose in furthering Finn’s journey was over.

So then the McKinley Narrative and Noobs were props for Finn’s SL and journey?

Seriously?

In this intervIew of the Hollywood Reporter:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/glee-ryan-murphy-season-four-spoilers-concert-tour-372376

before Season 4 Ryan made it abundantly clear he expected the Noobs to become stars, for THEM to anchor the McKinley narrative and extend the life of the show, and in addition, to tour (something the original cast was not willing to do anymore) to connect with the fans.

 

QUOTE:

“The other thing we wanted to do was repopulate the school with the next group of core characters. We've done that not so necessarily well; every year we'd add one or two new people and then we wouldn't necessarily follow their stories as much as perhaps we should have. We wanted to add a new group of four or five new kids who are sophomores now and hopefully they would take us through a couple more years and we can really follow their growth as well”

"Core characters" anyone?

They were considered the future of Glee and it’s very clear that Ryan was thinking beyond simply showing Finn’s (apparent) calling as a teacher.

If the Noobs had taken off and become stars, is anyone doubting that the narrative would have continued despite Cory’s death and the rack of resolution of Finn’s journey? In season 4 for large chunks of screen time Finn was servicing THEIR story, (Noobs) not vice versa as this revisionist spin by Ryan is now weaving. Finn was MIA in some stories where the Noobs were being developed. You don’t lavish that much time and focus on characters who are subservient to Finn’s story. IF anything, Cory in Season 4 lost the leading character status he had previously. (I swear I will NOT for now speculate how RM might have contributed to Cory’s feelings of insecurity that COULD HAVE contributed to his drug relapse too much..maybe later)

Now of course it was convenient for Finn to be the “anchor” that tied both narratives supposedly together, but the one fundamental question that Cory’s death has left hanging is the one everyone involved in the show and fandom was asking. Could the Noobs maintain a narrative by themselves once the last of the Seniors exited the building. That is the great unknown, but that is different from saying that the existence of the Noobs was primarily to construct a narrative around one character. Hell, Rachel didn’t get the cast of characters supporting her that supposedly Finn was getting for Season 4.

This BS rationale pinning everything conveniently on Cory's death lets Ryan pretend that his great experiment was not a bust, to whitewash that the Noobs truly did not take off, and to convince others he really intended all along for Cory to be the “star” of the McKinley narrative. It also is a balm for those Noob lovers to rationalize that their beloved Noobs, who were publicly humiliated in the last 5 episodes of the McKinley narrative, were not “failures” in any way, shape or form to RIB or FOX. Yet the way they exited and were shoved off the show indicates otherwise. CLEARLY.

So the pretense can be maintained that the Noobs and their narrative was a “success”.

If someone believes that other than teenagers and tweens there is Golden Gate bridge I’m willing to sell for twenty bucks.

Edited April 16, 2014 by caracas1914

[camussie]

Word to everything you posted Caracas.  The only thing I would add is there is another question that will always remain.  Had Finn lived, would a narrative centered on the newbies and supported by him where his role would have been manning the whiteboard, battling Sue, and having the occasional side story in the halls of McKinley been enough to keep Lima and the ratings viable?  As big of a Finn fan as I am, I think not.  Lima was simply played out.  And more than that it, once the decision was made way back in season 2 to downgrade Will's role, it was fait accompli the next step after graduation was following the original "kid" leads on their journey.  It just took Fox a failed attempt at repopulating the choir room and 1.25 seasons to finally admit that, at which time it seems like they finally brought the hammer down on RM.  

Edited April 15, 2014 by camussie

[tom87]

The point is there isn't the returning to Lima story (to be with Finn or to take over for Will) without the crappy rushed to success story

 

That wasn't my point though.   I get they needed to rush her success so she could go back to Finn her home.   I am just saying if I had to chose between the awful rush job to succes sotryline or  an awful retiring  to Lima storyline I take the rush job.  Neither would be my choice but to late for that.   Basicilly I see a bad story going from bad to worse if they contine on this path. So just stop now and let her succes fast and do soemthing else like  mentioned before maybe her struggling with  something else .

Sorry if I have not explained that well.

[Joystickenvy]

I heard the secret location for the final season is a bedroom closet and all of the shows will feature the music of R Kelly.

[bravelittletoaster]

Having been around for the "Summer of Lies," I don't generally believe anything out of Trollphy's mouth.  Remember when he was winning Twitter for 15 minutes before it all went to shit?  I'll give him this, he's not boring.

[heyerchick]

On any other show, I would watch these latest episodes of Glee and believe that the flaws in a popular ship were being painstakingly laid bare, issue by issue, week by week. The most noxious aspects of Blaine's personality are being exposed and even Kurt's patience, loyalty and love have to have their limit, Hummel man or not. And with Blaine about to have another massive easy win handed to him, again at the expense of Kurt, I would be bracing myself for the breaking point - and the break-up.

But this is Glee.

And Ryan Murphy, in all his sickly, creepy sentimentality, and what we should be bracing for is the wedding, when superstar Blaine, his strength, rightful manhood and alpha status restored, finally stoops to pick up trophy husband Kurt from whatever off-off-off-off Broadway skirmishing he's managed. Presuming he's even working in the arts.

Murphy, for whatever reason, has lost all interest in telling any story actually for or about Kurt Hummel. But he's obsessing on that gay fucking wedding, irregardless of the fact Blaine and Kurt could not be less suited.

[caracas1914]

Murphy, for whatever reason, has lost all interest in telling any story actually for or about Kurt Hummel.

 

This.

From your own tumblir site:

 

The key to understanding any Murphy show (and any Falchuk show, by extension) is that Murphy long ago lost any interest in concrete storytelling. What he does is manufacture moments, and when those moments are powerful enough…. they have a tendency to wash away anything else that doesn’t really work. Murphy’s pursued this ADD storytelling style across four shows, now, and it gets a little more sped up every time, a little less concerned with consistent characters or coherent storytelling or anything other than creating a single scene that captures you in the moment and makes you scream or laugh or sympathize.

from The A.V. Club (x)

 

[tom87]

I've long debated which is worse getting storylines or not.  Kurt's victory seeems to be him getting to  take the high road while all those around him are doomed to repeating thier same mistakes over and over again.

Edited April 18, 2014 by tom87

[jaytee1812]

I posted this on TWOP a while ago but thought I'd post it here:

My problem with the direction of the show for the passed two seasons is suddenly after the first couple of seasons where the New directions and its members had to struggle for everything, the glee club and its former members are finding life doesn’t have many struggles which is annoying because the characters are there it’s just lazy writing,

Take the Noobs. I actually liked them. Okay, I liked Jake and Kitty, I've seen the point made that they haven’t faced the problems that the original new directions faced in school. yet shouldn’t this group face more problems? Marley is the daughter of the school dinner lady, Jake is mixed race and a dancer, he doesn’t have the protection of the football team like his brother, Ryder has dyslexia and I imagine would face bullying because of that, and frankly I would imagine Unique’s high school experience would resemble a circle of hell.

Even the problems they have had seem to have no ‘struggle’ to them. Marley is never seen to struggle with food now, they’ve forgotten both Ryder and Kitty admitted to being sexually assaulted, and Marley and Jake go from happy to him cheating and them splitting up in one episode. There’s no drama to it.

The same can be said for the graduates Rachel waltzes into a broadway lead, Santana to the understudy (which is still a huge deal), Kurt gets an internship at vogue, Mercedes gets not one, but two chances at a record deal, the second of which she lays down the terms for. Not only is it crappy tv it really give an awful impression of how difficult it is to make it in the entertainment industry.

Again with the graduates their seem to be a lot of missed opportunities. Watching Rachel, Kurt and Santana having to grab every job they could, getting rejected, getting chances, one step forward, two steps back, The Big Bang Theory can managed to do this, why can’t Glee.

Also as much as everyone seems sad by Finn’s death, no-one seems to be struggling with it. However he died I think his friends and family would struggle coming to terms with it for months, even years afterwards.

[caracas1914]

So any predictions how long it will take FOX to "rethink" Season 6.

I mean, a .6 Demo for a show off the air for 8 months...does FOX have a choice without being lynched by its affiliates and advertisers??

They can't order even a half season with those numbers, can they?

Edited May 14, 2014 by caracas1914

[indeed]

Any chance they'll hire some new writers? That's the biggest criticism I've seen so, the writers' room could use a little shakeup.

Or maybe since Sound of Music did so well, Glee could have a series of musicals put on with the S1-2 cast, like three specials (equivalent of 6 episodes). Then the writers wouldn't have to come up with anything "fresh", they'd have "special presentation" iTunes music, and FOX would fulfill their season 6 commitment. RM could always make some references to Glee in his next show if we really must know what happens to Rachel, Klaine, and the choir room.

[tom87]

So any predictions how long it will take FOX to "rethink" Season 6.

I mean, a .6 Demo for a show off the air for 8 months...does FOX have a choice without being lynched by its affiliates and advertisers??

They can't order even a half season with those numbers, can they?

Depends on what thier deal was with Ryan.

[Coxfires]

Depends on what thier deal was with Ryan.

 

Yep. Basically, it comes down to what will cost them less in the end: breaking their deal with Ryan and pay him indemnification costs, or pay for a show that won't bring any money in.

 

Glee is a pretty expensive show to produce, since they have to pay for all the musical part of it (and I guess that they used to put a lot in choreography too, but the latest season seemed to indicate that they didn't invest much in it anymore). Even a 13 episodes season would cost a lot.

[tom87]

They could cut there clothing cost.  Rachels outifts alone for  the finale were well over 2k from what I saw from a fashion tumblr.

Edited May 15, 2014 by tom87

[indeed]

No! Sometimes Kurt's outfits are the most interesting things about an episode! Although, they could save money by cutting the neckerchief budget...

Edited May 15, 2014 by indeed

[tom87]

No! Sometimes Kurt's outfits are the most interesting things about an episode! Although, they could save money by cutting the neckerchief budget...

 

 

Then they need to keep the tags on and return it after he has worn it..    :)

[bravelittletoaster]

It's highly unlikely there'd be any penalty for canceling Glee.  Shows get cancelled all the time.  Deals mean that the show's producer is obligated to continue making programs for the broadcaster.  That obligation is not a two way street.  The network can cancel it at any time.  Especially when it's literally one of the least successful shows on television.

[dizzyizzy01]

When they gave it a 2-year renewal there would be some guarantee on payment to the production company.  It's generally not for the full order, but the network would be obligated to pay Murphy et al some amount regardless if the episodes are produced or not.  It'll be a business decision on what's worse.  Paying to produce episodes that air and are terrible in ratings that may generate less ad revenue than something else they can air in that time slot or paying and not getting anything in return.

[caracas1914]

Glee has always been flawed and had inherent problems with it's writing, even when ratings were at it's highest (season 2) I felt the writers threw away so much good will the GA had for the central couple of the show, Finchell, by having the bizarre breakup and then having Finn go back to Quinn and encourage her to cheat on her current boyfriend.

Never the less, the series was riding high and the second concert tour was phenomenally successful.

However I thought the biggest first miscue that actually bit them in the ass was the 3 D concert movie based on that tour.

The film spent inordinate amount of screen time patting Glee on the back for impacting young people with it's message, and yet the actors got short drift as far showcasing them actually performing or even back stage antics. The Blaine/Warblers focus was so out of proportion culminating in the creepy non cast mini warbler getting it seemed more screen time than some of the cast. The movie was a huge bust, previewing that the producers lost touch even with their core audience.

Edited May 18, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

Exactly ...  The 3D movie they kept saying was for the fans but of course they totaly missed the mark on want the fans wanted to see.

 

First full performances in order  and second the actaul actors  BTS and playing and goofing around.

 

The only one who was really in character in the BTS stuff was Lea/Rachel and the other were in this semi real/fake character.

[Anna Yolei]

Hehe, this title made me chuckle. And to think, back in the days of Popular, I used to think Ryan Murphy was great.

Seeing the trainwreck he turned Glee into makes me a tiny bit glad that Popular was canceled in its prime. As I type this, I just remembered how Joss Wheton tried twisting the WB's are for Angel's renewal and the neywork kneejerked and canceled it the next day. I wonder if something like that went down about Popular, becausr it was still pulling some decent ratings its second season and RM didn't have the clout then as he's got now.

[dizzyizzy01]

I wonder if something like that went down about Popular, becausr it was still pulling some decent ratings its second season and RM didn't have the clout then as he's got now.

 

 

Popular was pulling in pretty terrible ratings when it was cancelled.  I think it was one of the lowest rated if not the lowest rated shows on the WB at the time.  I think it was certainly pulling in lower ratings than anything that wasn't already cancelled. The cancellation for Popular wasn't really a surprise.

[caracas1914]

Doubt this shocks anyone...

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/foxs-kevin-reilly-depart-707910

"The network's broadcast chairman Kevin Reilly, who has been at Fox since 2007, will depart at the end of June. The news comes at a particularly challenged time for the network, which rounded out the season flat in the key 18-49 demographic despite having the Super Bowl -- and again losing the demo crown that the net had handily won for nearly a decade. Outside of genre play Sleepy Hollow, Fox failed to add any new bona-fide hits this past year, relying instead on critically beloved niche comedies (The Mindy Project, Brooklyn Nine-Nine), shrinking dramas (Glee, The Following) and an aging reality franchise (American Idol)."

Edited May 29, 2014 by caracas1914

[caracas1914]

Doubt Glee will have any lingering loyalty with the new Fox team.

If anything , I suspect the 2 WTF year Glee renewal may have been a factor (among others to be fair) for showing Reilly the door.

[heyerchick]

It's hard not to believe that Reilly was kicked to the kerb, given that he doesn't have another job lined up yet. Here's hoping the new regime negotiate 0 episodes for S6 and give 0 fucks. At this stage, it's all about the damage limitation for Kurt.

[tom87]

Not sure why Kurt fans are so worried about damage control for him.  They will never have him do anything that would hurt his moral high ground status.

 

Even if we do not see Kurt reach  some star status we know he won't do a 180  and be sacrficed for a plot point.    At worse he still won't get much material and stuck with Klaine .    So same old same old for Kurt.

[heyerchick]

As a Kurt fan, I firmly believe he'll be sacrificed on the altar - literally - of Ryan Murphy's determination to make a social, cultural statement with Glee's Big Gay Wedding despite the fact Kurt is in a relationship that diminishes him with a partner who's long on grand gestures and short on shit like honesty, equality, fidelity. An abrupt ending, right now, would suit me very well. A plot point is exactly what Kurt will be sacrificed for.

Edited May 30, 2014 by heyerchick

[Hana Chan]

Reilly was probably one of the last people at FOX willing to throw Glee a lifeline. Any other network would have seen the writing on the wall a long time ago and taken steps when they saw that Ryan Murphy's "creative vision" was totally tanking the show. At the very least, the purse strings should have been tightened to rein in Murphy's need to trot out "guest stars" that kept taking focus away from the primary cast and ended up serving no real purpose except to satisfy whatever was giving him a boner that particular week. The network also should not have allowed him to nearly totally sideline Glee's three best young performers (Lea, Cory and Chris) in favor of the never ending pool of suck that was Blam, Bram and the McKinely noobs. And there was no way in holy hell that Glee should have been given a 2 year renewal agreement. The rating were already in a steep slide after season for, but they totally went into the crapper in season 5. When you're pulling in weaker ratings than medicore shows on the CW (and I'm not talking about Supernatural), then something has to give.

 

I'm curious to know how this change is going to affect whatever agreement that the Glee showrunners are trying to reach with the network because I have a feeling that any hopes of getting more than 13 episodes have been dashed. I don't think it's completely out of the question for Glee to be canceled outright, or be given fewer than 13 episodes and no budget to pay for stunt guests.

[tom87]

As a Kurt fan, I firmly believe he'll be sacrificed on the altar - literally - of Ryan Murphy's determination to make a social, cultural statement with Glee's Big Gay Wedding despite the fact Kurt is in a relationship that diminishes him with a partner who's long on grand gestures and short on shit like honesty, equality, fidelity. An abrupt ending, right now, would suit me very well. A plot point is exactly what Kurt will be sacrificed for.

I was talking new things that would be introduced into his story . I mentioned him being stuck with Klaiine.   

 

The wedding was a plot point introduced long ago.   

[caracas1914]

"Even if we do not see Kurt reach some star status we know he won't do a 180 and be sacrficed for a plot point. At worse he still won't get much material and stuck with Klaine . So same old same old for Kurt."

Oh I think it could get much worse for Kurt, they could have him be a male bridezilla planning his dream wedding for upteen episodes. They could totally throw out any remaining career plans or ambitions, other than to support his future husband's blazing stardom. He could be finally reduced to what he feared, the gay comic sidekick, with "specific" appeal.

There are different ways to sacrifice a character.

Edited May 30, 2014 by caracas1914

[Anna Yolei]

As a Kurt fan, I firmly believe he'll be sacrificed on the altar - literally - of Ryan Murphy's determination to make a social, cultural statement with Glee's Big Gay Wedding despite the fact Kurt is in a relationship that diminishes him with a partner who's long on grand gestures and short on shit like honesty, equality, fidelity. An abrupt ending, right now, would suit me very well. A plot point is exactly what Kurt will be sacrificed for.

Not a huge Kurt fangirl, but I know where you're coming from. It's safe to say I expect everyone will be run under the ground by the end of this and with the Finchel ending, it's certain these two will be endgame despite every reason that they shouldn't.

Also, what caracasd1914 said, which would be irritating to sit through for so many reasons.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Anna Yolei

[tom87]

There are different ways to sacrifice a character

 

 

Missing my point.  In the end Kurt will not be the bad guy will not be the one to hurt someone else etc.

 

Kurt nearly if not always gets to be right.     Even if he is a Bridezilla it will come down to him just wanting to make things special.

[caracas1914]

I took your original response as implying there was no more way the writers could screw up or damage Kurt as a character.

My point was that even if , as you claim, the writers invariably portray Kurt as never morally wrong, his characterization could get worse . Reduced to just an appendage /prop for a Klaine wedding scene, I don't give two shits if he doesn't harm anyone, within those constraints he could be portrayed as more of a cypher with no career ambition or drive.

We knew Rachel was going to be the best snowflake ever since day one, but the writers have managed to even fuck up that known axiom with the latest plot twists where her broadway dreams/ambitions which were set up back in season one were deconstructed to seem superficial at best.

Just because the writers put their characters in a niche doesn't mean they can't ruin them even more within that niche. There is still half a season to go.

Edited May 31, 2014 by caracas1914

[tom87]

We knew Rachel was going to be the best snowflake ever since day one

 

We did?  I knew she would get to bway but....   She did not get everything she wanted at  all in the start   She was punished for her actions.  When she complained about  a song she didn't get it. See both Tonight and 2nd Sectionals  the only time she did complain about not getting a song.    At the very least she was called out for her actions.

 

That so called speical snowflake stuff didn't happen unitl season 3 and  then it happened for things she didnt even want like Prom Queen.    Which in the end was taken back anyway.

 

My point was that even if , as you claim, the writers invariably portray Kurt as never morally wrong, his characterization could get worse . Reduced to just an appendage /prop for a Klaine wedding scene, I don't give two shits if he doesn't harm anyone, within those constraints he could be portrayed as more of a cypher with no career ambition or drive

 

I acknowledged that thougth.   I get what you are saying.   And reduce? I thought that has been the complaint now is he is just a prop so as I said same old same old.    Yes it would be horrible if they did nothing with Kurt are if  his story is merely the wedding but all in all I do not think Kurt fans ( me include) need to worry that he will all of a sudden do a 180 and decide to be  teacher  in Lima or give up his dream of Bway in 3  seconds or cheat or even become a house husband to Blaine.   We may not see him  get the success we want him to have on Bway but he won't be throwing it out the window either. 

[tom87]

See all that is due to the stupid split  in NY and then the speed up in NY.

 

I knew we were in trouble when in season 4 when they skipped her first audtion and it was a throw away line that she didn't get it.   And then no build up to the show case.

 

It was evident then it would be all tell and no show for Rachel  in NY.

 

I actually have enjoyed Rachel in season 5 at least humor wise.  No I do not like how they have done a 180 in her career and made he more selfish  then even in season 1 but she has been funny .  In season 4 they wrote maybe about 5 scenes were she was funny.

[Anna Yolei]

I've watched a few post McK eps of the show of season five, and I have my doubts that even with a full season of NYC that the show would've been that much better. Certainly what I did see was leaps and bounds above recycled ND shit, but it's not hard to clear a bar that's set at sea level.

[Hana Chan]

Whatever potential the NY storyline had of revitalizing Glee was lost when the show runners decided to extend the school year nearly 2/3rds into season 5 and pretty much stiffled any chance of really developing the NY location. We were left with only 7 episodes that were exclusively in NY (following a season where the NY storyline averaged around 10 minutes of screen time per ep and was completely absent from three episodes). I don't think it's reasonable to expect that full storylines for all the major characters can fully be developed given those time constraints.

 

How the NY storyline played out also was very problematic and didn't allow for real development of stories. Instead of filling out the cast with proper recurring characters that could flesh out the stories of Kurt, Rachel and Santana (at that point, the three in NY), we had stunt guests who gobbled up focus and the stories became about featuring Kate Hudson and Sarah Jessica Parker rather than showing Rachel struggling at NYDA or Kurt finding a possible career path at Vogue. Kurt's band became about featuring Adam Lambert and Demi Lovato. We didn't get a proper NY-centric episode until Moving Out, and that was focused on (at that time) McKinely characters (Sam & Blaine). When we finally got to the completely NY episodes, they ended up being dominated with Rachel's Funny Girl story (told with the finger firmly on the fast foward button and allowed no real development) and an overload of Samcedes. They were trying to tell an entire season worth of stories in 7 episodes and nothing ended up working satisfactorily.

 

As if to add insult to injury, no sooner does the show finally have a center again in NY (after more than one and a half years of a deeply uneven split focus) that they split up the cast again to multiple locations. With Rachel off to LA, Sam to Lima, Mercedes to everyone and Kurt and Blaine in NY, we're back to no real center of the show. The NY storyline never was given the chance to succeed.

[caracas1914]

Yea, to give NY just 7 episodes when they were reduced to 10 minutes for 1 2/3 seasons in order to rush through a year was Glee blunder number one thousand in  a list that keeps growing and growing.

 

Ryan's ego is involved in getting rid of NY I suspect, I'm sure there was big time pressure on him to dump the Noobs for over a year.

 

I don't think RIB, especially Ryan , ever intended nor planned for New York to be the main narrative.  It was some place to put Rachel and Kurt after graduation and I think the plan was always to have McKinley front and center with a revolving cast.  I suspect FOX forced their hand by closing down McKinley/Noobs and they scrambled to accommodate the new  set up but their heart certainly wasn't in it.

 

The fact that Ryan is getting rid of New York as soon as he can speaks volumes.  At this point FOX doesn't give a shit anymore, since the ratings imploded so badly.

Edited June 18, 2014 by caracas1914

[Hana Chan]

I agree, caracas1914. RM fought against shifting focus to NY for as long as he could. He maintained his insistance that it was the show choir room that needed to be the centerpiece and that the characters were interchangable (in that it didn't matter what actors/students occupied the room at any given moment). He made it impossible for the NY storyline to get any traction, and the fact that some of the NY stories were as good as they were really is a tribute to Lea, Chris and Naya, who often had little (or nothing) to work with. The NY narrative really could have breathed new life into Glee had it been given a realistic chance, but RM's ego wouldn't allow that to happen. He'd rather recycle the same high school storylines over and over again with characters that are increasingly less interesting and less original than the previous incarnations. Another round of romantic triangles, anyone?

 

With Glee off the FOX roster for September and coming back as a mid-season replacement, as well as having it stated outright that this is the last season, the network has no reason to fight with RM any longer. They're not going to invest any more energy into this shop so it doesn't matter if Glee is run completely into the ground. They're just running out the clock at this point.

[jaytee1812]

I agree, caracas1914. RM fought against shifting focus to NY for as long as he could. He maintained his insistance that it was the show choir room that needed to be the centerpiece and that the characters were interchangable (in that it didn't matter what actors/students occupied the room at any given moment). He made it impossible for the NY storyline to get any traction, and the fact that some of the NY stories were as good as they were really is a tribute to Lea, Chris and Naya, who often had little (or nothing) to work with. The NY narrative really could have breathed new life into Glee had it been given a realistic chance, but RM's ego wouldn't allow that to happen. He'd rather recycle the same high school storylines over and over again with characters that are increasingly less interesting and less original than the previous incarnations. Another round of romantic triangles, anyone?

 

To an extent I think RM was right, (I know, I'll wash my mouth out with soap and water later!). The choir room was the heart of the show. It should've remained centred on McKinley, it's perfectly feasible to change the cast and keep the setting especially in a high school show. But he made two rods for his own back which meant that would never work. 

 

The first was making Rachel and Finn the protagonist and concentrating on them for three seasons. Understandably people became more interested in their story rather than the glee club. For glee club to change members it should've had a consistent protagonist - Will, his character became increasingly irrelevant after season one, and frankly Matthew Morrison has been wasted for years in that role. 

 

The other was making the newbies watered down versions of previous characters and recycling storylines. Neither of these was necessary and smacked of complete laziness and arrogance on the part of those running the show. I do think you can change the characters in the choir room but any characters still need to be well written and well defined. There was no need to recycle storylines, again just smacks of laziness. I can think of a several different story lines the new characters could've had that would've been something different, and if I can do it why can't professional writers? I also think the music choices for the newbies were awful, they were all pretty impressive when the got a song that suited them, unfortunately that rarely happened. 

 

I hated the NY only eps, I can't explain it. Characters I liked at McKinley I found annoying in NY, characters I found tolerable as part of an ensemble I hated in NY. They came across as a bunch of self-absorbed assholes. I think the show may have sunk sooner if it focused completely on NY from season 4.