Small Talk: Coffee & Donuts

[yeswedo]

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Happy trails beyond Small Talk!

[punkypower]

Hi guys!!

I've always feared Small Talks because never quite sure what's right.

I thought this would be the perfect place to talk about another "Trial of the Century," (albeit, a different century)--Jodi Arias'.

Juan Martinez' book comes out today!! Anyone got it yet? Waiting on the mailman here!

[GHScorpiosRule]

I'm just going to post this here, because it's not really part of the show, but about a key player in the Civil case against OJ Simpson.

 

I was reading the newsletter at work, can't recall which one it was, AM Law or The Litigator, and there was an article about Drumpf having many lawsuite and my jaw fell to the floor and I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that Petrocelli, Petrocelli, who was the Goldmans's attorney, is that ASSHOLE'S attorney in one of the class actions!

 

Y'all, I am just...traumatized.

[Morgalisa]

Just to name a few cases where there was no racial aspect (and therefore the juries were not severely trashed for their verdict), see T. Cullen Davis (wealthiest man to have stood trial for murder), three eyewitnesses ID's him; Robert Durst and Robert Blake.

[CeeBeeGee]

Just to name a few cases where there was no racial aspect (and therefore the juries were not severely trashed for their verdict), see T. Cullen Davis (wealthiest man to have stood trial for murder), three eyewitnesses ID's him; Robert Durst and Robert Blake.

 

Nobody knows who the first one was (seriously, I've never even heard of him), the second was famous only because of the murder and the bizarre way in which his culpability was revealed and the third was a washed up actor who hasn't been heard of since. Not sure what your point is.

[Crs97]

Not to get off-topic, but T. Cullen Davis forced his 12 year old stepdaughter down into the basement and onto her knees before killing her. He then killed his estranged wife's boyfriend and shot his wife (she survived), then chased her outside and paralyzed another friend. He was only tried for the murder of the step daughter. All survivors identified him. The defense focused on his wife's behavior during their separation (they were both dating other people). He was acquitted.

This is one of the cases that my law partners would talk about with compliments to the lawyers who got him off, which is why I was so appalled at their outrage against OJ and his dream team.

 

Edited to add:  Cullen Davis was charged again with murder for soliciting someone to kill his estranged wife and their divorce attorney, among others.  They had tapes of his transaction with an undercover cop.  He was acquitted again.  If you want to know where Johnny Cochran got his defense plan, read this article about Racehorse Haynes, the Houston lawyer who successfully defended Davis in both his murder trials:  http://www.texasmonthly.com/articles/how-cullen-davis-beat-the-rap-2/

Edited April 4, 2016 by Crs97

[biakbiak]

Nobody knows who the first one was (seriously, I've never even heard of him), the second was famous only because of the murder and the bizarre way in which his culpability was revealed and the third was a washed up actor who hasn't been heard of since. Not sure what your point is.

Also, many many people who followed the Durst case even before the HBO series talked about how stupid the jury was and couldn't believe the verdict, the case just wasn't as high profile so there wasn't tons of press coverage devoted to criticizing the jury; same thing with Robert Blake.

[Ina123]

Just to name a few cases where there was no racial aspect (and therefore the juries were not severely trashed for their verdict), see T. Cullen Davis (wealthiest man to have stood trial for murder), three eyewitnesses ID's him; Robert Durst and Robert Blake.

 

All three of those are frustrating. I know the least about Cullen Davis.

 

I've been furious with Durst and Blake juries from day one. Blake did it. How in heaven's name they let him off? Unbelievable. Another one of those putting the victim on trial.

 

I think they're going to get Durst this time. Read Jeanine Pirro's book. It puts it all into perspective. I don't think any "Dream Team" he gets will help this time. If that jury let's him go, I'm afraid Pirro will just get rid of him herself. She'll come unhinged.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I hope it's okay to post this here, since we talked about the Manson case during the run of the show here.  If not, I'm sure aethera will remove it.

 

Leslie Van Houten granted chance at parole.

 

And Manson, fuck it all, at 81, is still alive.

 

Was it Leslie that Bugliosi tried to help get paroled? Or was it Susan, who had terminal cancer and died in prison? Anyhoo, I'm not sure how I feel about this.

Edited April 15, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[DangerousMinds]

I think it's fine she was paroled. Is she a danger to anyone else at this point? And the taxpayers pay a lot of money for each inmate.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I had to correct the title since she's actually only been given a chance at parole. The state has 120 days, I think, to make it official, and Gov. Brown could very well deny it like he did for someone else.

[psychoticstate]

Manson will clearly outlive everyone involved in this case. 

 

I didn't realize that Bugliosi had tried to get any of the killers parole.  He may not have actively opposed Susan Atkins getting a compassionate release, I suppose.

 

I'm not sure either how I feel about Van Houten potentially getting parole.  Every one of the Manson Family cost us Cali taxpayers ridiculous sums of money - - but if she were paroled, wouldn't she be on some form of government assistance?  I know some persons have said that Van Houten, as the least culpable, should be paroled or that since she "only" actively participated in the killing of one person, parole should be granted.  

 

While she didn't attack Leno LaBianca, she did help those who did by cleaning up, grabbing clothing and/or food, etc.  If we hold her as responsible as we do Manson (who tied up Leno but then left), that would amount to 20 years served for each life.  Is that enough?  

 

I think the thing that has always concerned me about Van Houten is that, at least back in 1969-1971, she behaved like a sociopath.  When her own attorney was questioning her, asking her if she felt sad over Rosemary LaBianca dying, even knowing that her own life was on the line, Van Houten couldn't say that she did.  She said something along the lines of everybody dies or people die every day.  She answered in the same fashion when her attorney asked if she ever cried about Mrs. LaBianca's death.  In his final attempt to humanize her, he asked her if she ever thought about Mrs. LaBianca.  Van Houten said "only in the courtroom."    Leslie Van Houten was also per Vince Bugliosi the least attached or dedicated to Manson.  That's a scary thought to me.  She was willing to kill people on his command and yet was the least dedicated of that group?   How awful would she have been if she had been devoted to Manson?   

[GHScorpiosRule]

You know what? After reading that article, it reminded me why I didn't and don't think any of the people involved should be free.  Van Houten stabbed Rosemary LaBianca in the back 14 times.  She said she was "whacked out on LSD." Whatever. So you being on drugs is an excuse?

 

So, it's the review board that has 120 days to approve this, and if they do, then Gov. Brown gets it. And then he has 30 days to approve it or not.

 

And yeah, I truly believe that psycho, Manson will outlive everyone that was involved in this case.

[helenamonster]

Yeah, part of me knows she's likely no danger to anyone now (in that picture she looks a lot older than 66, holy crap, I would have pegged her to be in her 80's if I didn't know who she was) and wouldn't have much in the way of a life outside of prison due to her felon status, but also like...I wanted all of those people to rot in jail until they finally snuffed it. I'm sorry, but even if you've never actually killed anyone, if you willingly participated in murders as brutal as the Tate/LaBianca ones, you don't deserve to live a nice, normal life like the rest of us. I remember seeing videos of Susan Atkins pleading for compassionate release and just being like...where was your compassion when you were stabbing a pregnant woman to death, you piece of shit? Good fucking riddance.

 

Do any of the remaining Tates still go to the parole hearings? Or would they not have gone to Van Houten's because she was only at the LaBianca murders? I'd like to think they still make an effort to go to all of them. I think one of Sharon's sisters is still alive and goes, along with her daughter (Sharon's niece).

[kathe5133]

Rosemary LaBianca is dead. She doesn't get to go before a parole board and plead her case. She did plead for her life to those who killed her though. Her plea was denied. Leslie was sentenced to life in prison. Life in prison means life in prison the same way dead means dead. Actions have consequences. At least Leslie gets to "live" with those consequences. Rosemary wasn't given that option.

[BW Manilowe]

Courtney B. Vance has joined the cast of Tom Cruise's reboot of The Mummy.

http://variety.com/2016/film/news/mummy-reboot-tom-cruise-courtney-b-vance-1201754852/

[Umbelina]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/charles-manson-follower-leslie-van-houtens-role-1969/story?id=38424202

 

Approved.  Still has more steps though.

[savannah1985]

I have very strong feelings about any Manson associate getting paroled. I don't believe in the death penalty, so life should mean life.

[kathe5133]

OH good! This is way off topic for OJ, ACS, but raised in one of the other threads, so now I have a place. I don't usually care about the news, or currents events. I'm like, eh whatever. But the thought that Leslie VanHouton could be released just pisses me off!

I was 12 years old or so when those murders happened and really didn't know much about them. The news said someone was murdered. I asked my parents who and they told me it was "none of my business". Pre the Google age, I knew that meant I would have to wait a while for details and that they would be worth waiting for!

I read Bugliosi's Helter Skelter when I was about 19. Same age Leslie was when she participated. She ws so pretty! I was shocked that someone who looked like her could have gotten involved in something so heinous! It was superficial of me, but my parents always warned that dumb mistakes could alter your life, irreparably. Wow, her story drove that point home and I took that with me throughout my life.

Now she wants to go free? She brings whole new meaning to the phrase "piece of shit"! She was there. She plunged a knife into that woman. Oh now she says the woman was already dead when she did that so she should go free? WTF!

She has no remorse. No shame. By her own admittance she was there. If she had any kind of sense she would accept her fate. She should use her life story as a cautionary tale to young people about poor choices. Consequences of actions. But no. She is a mouthful of excuses. "My parents divorce traumatized me". Charlie made me do it". "It was the drugs". Excuses.

If the death penalty had not been abolished in California she would most likely be dead now. It boggles my mind that she could even be up for parole. I hope she is kept behind bars for the rest of her life. There is no "debt" to society that she has paid. She participated in cold blooded murder. She doesn't deserve to ever be free.

[shang yiet]

The death of the Tate baby should count as one murder by itself. Tate was eight months along. They took two lives there.

[helenamonster]

The death of the Tate baby should count as one murder by itself. Tate was eight months along. They took two lives there.

 

Agreed. I know Tate begged them to take her hostage so that she could have her baby, but didn't she also try to get them to cut the baby out of her and let him live before they killed her? Either way, at eight months along he would have had a chance at surviving outside the womb. Utterly disgusting. They're all trash and can't die soon enough.

[psychoticstate]

You know what? After reading that article, it reminded me why I didn't and don't think any of the people involved should be free.  Van Houten stabbed Rosemary LaBianca in the back 14 times.  She said she was "whacked out on LSD." Whatever. So you being on drugs is an excuse?

 

So, it's the review board that has 120 days to approve this, and if they do, then Gov. Brown gets it. And then he has 30 days to approve it or not.

 

And yeah, I truly believe that psycho, Manson will outlive everyone that was involved in this case.

 

I think she's full of shit regarding the LSD.  Of course the killers have gone back and forth over the years, saying at some times they were perfectly sober and in full control of their faculties; at others claiming they were stoned/high/whatever.  

 

Regardless, I don't believe any drug is going to make you stab someone that many times unless that part of you is already there.  

 

 

Yeah, part of me knows she's likely no danger to anyone now (in that picture she looks a lot older than 66, holy crap, I would have pegged her to be in her 80's if I didn't know who she was) and wouldn't have much in the way of a life outside of prison due to her felon status, but also like...I wanted all of those people to rot in jail until they finally snuffed it. I'm sorry, but even if you've never actually killed anyone, if you willingly participated in murders as brutal as the Tate/LaBianca ones, you don't deserve to live a nice, normal life like the rest of us. I remember seeing videos of Susan Atkins pleading for compassionate release and just being like...where was your compassion when you were stabbing a pregnant woman to death, you piece of shit? Good fucking riddance.

 

Do any of the remaining Tates still go to the parole hearings? Or would they not have gone to Van Houten's because she was only at the LaBianca murders? I'd like to think they still make an effort to go to all of them. I think one of Sharon's sisters is still alive and goes, along with her daughter (Sharon's niece).

 

Debra Tate attends parole hearings for Tex Watson, Charles Manson and Patricia Krenwinkle.  I don't think she has a say with regard to Van Houten since Van Houten was not convicted of killing Sharon.  Patti Tate did it for a few years before she died back around 2000.  Her daughter Brie wrote a book with Alisa Statman about the effect Sharon's murder had on the Tate family.  It's a painful read but one that will make you admire P.J. and Doris Tate.  Most people don't realize the immense stress left behind on the family of the victims.  

 

In a very weird irony, Rosemary LaBianca's daughter (for a while at least) was pushing for Tex Watson's release, claiming that he was a born again Christian who had served his time and deserved to be paroled.  Clearly Rosemary's daughter is nuts. 

 

 

 

OH good! This is way off topic for OJ, ACS, but raised in one of the other threads, so now I have a place. I don't usually care about the news, or currents events. I'm like, eh whatever. But the thought that Leslie VanHouton could be released just pisses me off!

I was 12 years old or so when those murders happened and really didn't know much about them. The news said someone was murdered. I asked my parents who and they told me it was "none of my business". Pre the Google age, I knew that meant I would have to wait a while for details and that they would be worth waiting for!

I read Bugliosi's Helter Skelter when I was about 19. Same age Leslie was when she participated. She ws so pretty! I was shocked that someone who looked like her could have gotten involved in something so heinous! It was superficial of me, but my parents always warned that dumb mistakes could alter your life, irreparably. Wow, her story drove that point home and I took that with me throughout my life.

Now she wants to go free? She brings whole new meaning to the phrase "piece of shit"! She was there. She plunged a knife into that woman. Oh now she says the woman was already dead when she did that so she should go free? WTF!

She has no remorse. No shame. By her own admittance she was there. If she had any kind of sense she would accept her fate. She should use her life story as a cautionary tale to young people about poor choices. Consequences of actions. But no. She is a mouthful of excuses. "My parents divorce traumatized me". Charlie made me do it". "It was the drugs". Excuses.

If the death penalty had not been abolished in California she would most likely be dead now. It boggles my mind that she could even be up for parole. I hope she is kept behind bars for the rest of her life. There is no "debt" to society that she has paid. She participated in cold blooded murder. She doesn't deserve to ever be free.

 

Rosemary LaBianca was still alive when some of her back wounds were delivered.  Frankly, I don't think it should matter whether she was alive or not.  Van Houten's motive was to destroy and she was perfectly fine with doing that and supporting her "Family" while they did it too.  She had no remorse following the murders and none during the trial.  She can't even seem to admit now - - all these years later - - that she did it, she participated in it and Rosemary may have been alive when she did it and she did it because she wanted to.  She still wants to play poor little Leslie.  I'm not buying it.  Lots of people experiment with drugs.  Lots of kids suffer through their parents divorcing.  They don't go out and butcher complete strangers for shits and giggles over a weekend.  

 

She was given far more mercy than the Tate-LaBianca victims.  Her death sentence was overturned and she has lived past August 8-10, 1969.  That's as much mercy as she deserves . . . and more than she deserves in my opinion.   These murders were beyond horrific and absolutely pointless.  To imagine the terror the victims went through - -especially Sharon Tate, who had to watch or hear her friends be viciously murdered and then listen to her killers debate whether or not to allow her to live, I cannot even comprehend the trauma of that.  And now these killers want us to feel sorry for them, want us to believe they were so completely under Charles Manson's spell that they would brutally murder strangers to satisfy him.  No.  No way.  They tortured their victims, overkilled them and thoroughly enjoyed it.  They deserve to remain in prison and are lucky they never had to face a date with the gas chamber.

 

 

Agreed. I know Tate begged them to take her hostage so that she could have her baby, but didn't she also try to get them to cut the baby out of her and let him live before they killed her? Either way, at eight months along he would have had a chance at surviving outside the womb. Utterly disgusting. They're all trash and can't die soon enough.

 

 

Sadly, in 1969 an unborn child was not considered a person.  Otherwise, they would have been convicted for eight deaths instead of seven.

 

It is said that Sharon Tate begged the killers to take her with them and then they could kill her however they liked once she gave birth.  Failing that, she asked that to cut the baby out after they killed her so her child could live.  Susan Atkins claimed she wanted to have the power to do that but just couldn't bring herself to.  I guess she was squeamish over that but not slicing up people trying to run away and pleading for life. 

 

I believe Thomas Noguchi (who performed Sharon Tate's autopsy) said that her baby would have lived for about 20 minutes after Sharon herself died.  So tragic.  And horrific that the person who participated in her murder (Tex Watson) was allowed to go on and father four children while incarcerated.