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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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Belinea

Belinea

Please, for the love of God, don't kill E1 Laurel to bring on E2 Laurel. Before doing that I'd have kept E1 Laurel. 

Then again how much of a joke would it be to kill the character you took so long to get right and then to kill her in order to replace her with a completely new character that doesn't have the problematic backstory (maybe).

 

How is a death supposed to resonate if you still cheat your way out of it? Maybe the end of the Season 4 reveals the new BC and therefore Twitter will explode...I know I am being pessimistic but this stuff annoys me so bad. Either you kill a character or you don't. Because telling everybody and their mother how you will not back out and then back out, is just dumb. If you didn't want to kill an important character, then simply don't do it. Think of something else rather then replacing E1 with E2...

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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Ruby25

Ruby25

I hadn't thought of that, but that would be kind of hilarious if KC returns to Arrow in Season 5, but as a brand new Dinah Lance, and is now the kick-ass Black Canary she was always supposed to be, without the botched backstory and everything.

 

OMG, and then Oliver likes this Laurel better, lol. Can you imagine?

 

I don't think they'll do any of that, but given E2's existence...it's possible. In theory. More likely, she would show up once or twice as a guest star or something.

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Velocity23

Velocity23

(edited)

 

I hadn't thought of that, but that would be kind of hilarious if KC returns to Arrow in Season 5, but as a brand new Dinah Lance, and is now the kick-ass Black Canary she was always supposed to be, without the botched backstory and everything.

 

OMG, and then Oliver likes this Laurel better, lol. Can you imagine?

She is gone gone gone.

Edited by Velocity23
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EmilyBettFan

EmilyBettFan

(edited)

I hadn't thought of that, but that would be kind of hilarious if KC returns to Arrow in Season 5, but as a brand new Dinah Lance, and is now the kick-ass Black Canary she was always supposed to be, without the botched backstory and everything.

OMG, and then Oliver likes this Laurel better, lol. Can you imagine?

I don't think they'll do any of that, but given E2's existence...it's possible. In theory. More likely, she would show up once or twice as a guest star or something.

That wouldn't work considering they have anti-chemistry no matter the dialogue. All I see with them is how they try too hard (especially KC with her hand on his face,) and her cocked head to the side being like "awww." Whereas whenever Felicity touches him it seems genuine and they have done the back and forth with Oliver touching her shoulder to soothe her. I can't really pin point any scene where Oliver touches Laurel to soothe her. They've hugged but even that looked forced. Edited by EmilyBettFan
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Midnight Lullaby

Midnight Lullaby

(edited)

My guess is Earth 2 Laurel that will make a one time appearance there. I hope no Laurel/Robert because I know the big age difference is comic canon but not a fan of women being with men that could be their fathers, LOL.

AK is not involved in Arrow anymore but he is still an executive producer so he had to agree on LL being killed off or am I wrong? In this case he knew about the death before the leaked pics and having her appear this season as Earth 2 Laurel when they knew they had the chance could have been planned for a while.

Edited by Midnight Lullaby
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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

When do you posting maniacs find time to sleep?!!

Just wait until SDCC!!  We only reluctantly snatched a few hours of sleep all weekend, and this board was on fire! (like 175 candles in Nanda Parbat plus all of the massive torches they drag around everywhere they go)

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looptab

looptab

I don't know if it's a good thing or bad thing that we don't really have any idea of what's going to happen beyond 418. I think at this point last year, we'd at least guessed that Oliver was going to join the LoA in 321. And there was all that speculation about the second wedding. And that SA's favorite Olicity scene was on a plane headed to Nanda Parbat.

 

But then again, we had a sizzle reel last year because of the Arrow Paleyfest panel. And an extended promo for episodes 19-21 that got released on April 2, aka the day all Olicity fans freaked the fuck out.

 True, last year we definitely had more infos, among Paleyfest, the sizzle reel and the cast itself. Wasn't it SA who talked first about Evil Oliver? Anyway, I deem this a good thing. I like to be spoiled, but last year we could predict pretty much the plot of entire episodes, point after point. Besides, no wedding spec! It's a plus! Though, maybe we'll know something more in the next month or so..

 

Mimosa anyone?

 Never tried it in the morning, but I just might :)

 

Not Amanda Waller, Anatoly.

 

COME ONNNNNNNNNNNN

 If the Russia fb don't have Anatoly, what's even the point. I've been waiting for him for two years!! Two years! We've endured Poppy, we deserve something good.

 

I do not understand people who say that it is to say goodbye they bring laurel earth 2, they do not know, and they have very different lives,Bring another laurel causes new tensions

I haven't seen people on here mention any goodbyes. But, if you are referring to people saying KC will be back as a goodbye, maybe they mean it as KC giving her character a last goodbye, or the audience giving the actress a last goodbye? I don't think they meant that the Laurel who appears on Flash will say goodbye to any other characters.

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bijoux

bijoux

 If the Russia fb don't have Anatoly, what's even the point. I've been waiting for him for two years!! Two years! We've endured Poppy, we deserve something good.

 

I'm actually hoping to see Anatoly both in the flashbacks and the present next year. Not every episode, but I would want him and Oliver to meet up again in the present. I'm going to be so disappointed.

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Guest

Guest

(edited)

I don't know whether it's cruel to dangle an appearance of BC after she's dead or nice for her fans to see her again. I'll let her fans decide tbh.

I will LOL if the writers' idea of the death sticking is to have E1 Laurel dead permenantly but E2 takes her place. That's not making a death stick. It probably is a one off but LMAO.

Edited by Guest
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looptab

looptab

I'm actually hoping to see Anatoly both in the flashbacks and the present next year. Not every episode, but I would want him and Oliver to meet up again in the present. I'm going to be so disappointed.

Why did you have to mention that??? Now I'm going to be disappointed too, haha.
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bijoux

bijoux

KC still has the Paris con scheduled in the middle of shooting. I will be shocked if she's back as Earth 2 Laurel permanently. This is a guest appearance on The Flash and I can buy she might make one or two next year, but no way do I see her staying permanently on either show.


Why did you have to mention that??? Now I'm going to be disappointed too, haha.

Misery loves company.

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looptab

looptab

If it is E2, then I hope she's a villain. It'd be weak to have her be the same on both Earths when no one else was.

I think it is; Kreisberg even mentioned something about other E2 appearances down the season that they hadn't announced yet in a recent interview. I agree that having her be the same wouldn't make much sense.
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bijoux

bijoux

That doesn't really clear up whether she's fighting him or alongside him. I'm not against her being a villain on E2, I just don't see this as definitive proof either way.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

I wouldn't put it past them to say that earth 1 Laurel is dead so that death will stick. Then bring in earth 2 Laurel who would be a different person that the team doesn't know. That could've been the deal they made with DC.

Now I don't think she'll show up right away in season 5, but I do think it's now a possibility because comics.

Edited by Sakura12
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Belinea

Belinea

(edited)

I wouldn't put it past them to say that earth 1 Laurel is dead so that death will stick. Then bring in earth 2 Laurel who would be a different person that the team doesn't know. That could've been the deal they made with DC.

Now I don't think she'll show up right away in season 5, but I do think it's now a possibility because comics.

On the one hand that is a smart move because you can do the comics and you can do your character over on the other hand I think it is really dumb to just replace your own version with the 'no-baggage' version. What good will a death be if you can just replace that character with a character from E2. The problems with the dynamic (as seen on screen) might still stick. So, I agree they might introduce that bit by bit. If it works great if not it doesn't. 

 

I am still however curious about the aftermath of the death episode. I want to know what the EPs will say and maybe then one might get a better idea where BC is headed.

Edited by Belinea
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Sakura12

Sakura12

*double sighs* ok this is the last time i will say this. Its not happening.

You know this for a fact? I won't believe until season 5 is over and she doesn't make an appearance.

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

She was FIRED. She is not coming back to Arrow or Flash or LoT in any capacity other than a very occasional guest star. And I seriously wouldn't put it past them to kill off E2 Laurel on Flash just to shut down every last possible call for this character.

May I remind you that Deadshot and Ronnie Raymond were both Killed on E2 after being killed on E1? People thought E2 was going to be used to bring OG Firestorm back, instead they made him evil and killed him off and they LIKED Robbie Amell.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

(edited)

That doesn't really clear up whether she's fighting him or alongside him. I'm not against her being a villain on E2, I just don't see this as definitive proof either way.

 

I think it's likely she's fighting against Barry. It makes sense that her E2 doppleganger would be evil - everyone else's was different on E2. I doubt they'd have carbon copy Laurel Lance/Black Canary over on the other Earth. 

 

Although, LMAO - if this is the last time she appears in this universe (barring flashbacks or whatever), it's pretty shitty for her fans that her parting shot is as a villain.

Edited by apinknightmare
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I said once that I think if they kill off Laurel/BC - yes, yes, I still can't believe it - then they won't leave Olicity fans happy either at the end of S4 - no happy O&F reunion.  Instead, it'll be a cliffhanger ending that leaves the team completely or partly separated, with one or more characters' fates unknown.

 

I think that whether or not the EPs bring back Laurel next season, as her Earth 2 Black Canary doppelganger, will depend on the severity of the reaction to her death on Arrow and its effect on ratings this season.

Edited by tv echo
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spartan

spartan

She was FIRED. She is not coming back to Arrow or Flash or LoT in any capacity other than a very occasional guest star. And I seriously wouldn't put it past them to kill off E2 Laurel on Flash just to shut down every last possible call for this character.

May I remind you that Deadshot and Ronnie Raymond were both Killed on E2 after being killed on E1? People thought E2 was going to be used to bring OG Firestorm back, instead they made him evil and killed him off and they LIKED Robbie Amell.

you may be right, but why would she bring her back? it astonish me to see barry go to Star City E2, I think there's something there. They were not obliged to ramerner another laurel in another show for the kill. If they really did not want to see it, they would have simply said something like that sara can not return to the past to save her otherwise would end the world by example

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I wonder if the EPs had to negotiate KC's departure for contractual reasons.  Like maybe one of the stipulations was that Laurel would be the only Black Canary on Arrow - ever?

 

I'm not surprised that they're keeping the door open for some version of her to return.

Edited by tv echo
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

Same. I'm hoping they close E2 permenantly so it ends that possiblity. Frankly, bringing her back in any way is a cheat.

Barry can now just start running and get to other earths so I don't see how they can ever completely close it. 

 

 

 

Please, for the love of God, don't kill E1 Laurel to bring on E2 Laurel. Before doing that I'd have kept E1 Laurel. 

Then again how much of a joke would it be to kill the character you took so long to get right and then to kill her in order to replace her with a completely new character that doesn't have the problematic backstory (maybe).

 

How is a death supposed to resonate if you still cheat your way out of it? Maybe the end of the Season 4 reveals the new BC and therefore Twitter will explode...I know I am being pessimistic but this stuff annoys me so bad. Either you kill a character or you don't. Because telling everybody and their mother how you will not back out and then back out, is just dumb. If you didn't want to kill an important character, then simply don't do it. Think of something else rather then replacing E1 with E2...

 

I thought this idea was shut down by the producers right away when they announced the death.  It was one of the first theories brought up so they could cheat at killing someone.  I thought it was specifically refuted. 

When do you posting maniacs find time to sleep?!!

 

 

Or live in California, but prioritize Arrow as high as our family, friends, and jobs.  

Or sometimes higher.  You gotta give more time to the most pressing matters.  ;)

 

KC will most likely play a villain. She was doing stunt rehersals with Grant Gustins stunt double.

I would be surprised if she's a villain.  I suspect this will be her swan song.  Kind of a parting gift to her fan base.  And while we were told Oliver was dead, we were also told Sara was dead how many times?  They could do the episode and have E2 Laurel even consider coming back with them only to discover Oliver is actually alive and leave with the impression Oliver is taking over the family business, letting his dad retire. 

 

 I think all this is going to go down on E2.   That's where Zoom is currently and the baddie that The Flash is trying to defeat.  Though if he did figure out a way back to E1 then BC could be part of a group trying to take him down and accidentally follow him over. 

Edited by BkWurm1
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bijoux

bijoux

I'd really appreciate a mention of E2 Tommy. What if he was the real GA and Robert took the fall for him like Roy did for Oliver. You know what, I want a mention of E2 Moira as well.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

The EPs could always change their minds -  but this is what they previously said regarding the seriousness of the Big Death and about using time travel or other devices to revoke a death...

-- MG: " It’s not a fake out. That’s not how we work." WM: "They will stay dead. We want to bring stakes back to the show, so we’ll be finding a way to handle the Lazarus Pit portion of Season 4 in a new, inventive way that I can’t reveal, but it will be cool.”  MG: "It’ll feel organic and very earned. It’s actually very elegant.” (Collider, DocBrown TV, EW, ETonline, Hollywood Reporter, TVLine and Variety articles, page 22 of Spoilers thread)
-- Per WM, we’ll finally learn who dies "towards the end of the season. I can’t tell you which episode – you’ll have to watch! But it’s big stakes and it’s going to be a big shock, so we want to make sure that we handle it with as much care as possible, and that means making sure that we are ramping into it in all the right ways, so that pushes it towards the last few episodes of the season.” (Variety article, page 29 of Spoilers thread)
-- On Barry's trip into the past to erase the fiery deaths of TA and TF in 408, MG: “Well, we've certainly taken care of the Lazarus Pit at the end of Episode 3 of [Arrow] Season 4. And Legends will explain, basically, why time travel can't be used in a deus ex machina kind of way, not just with respect to death, but with respect to any plot contrivance. It's like, ‘Why can't we just go back to Episode X and do that episode differently?’ We're going to answer that question very definitively. It'll be part of the rules of time travel that are a part of Legends.”  GB said they treat death more like the comic books do than other TV shows and when GJ brought up how Barry Allen in the comic books was dead for about 20 years, before his return, GB: “Exactly. Why that's a perfect example is they all waited long enough, and Geoff chose to bring him back the right way. So dead will still mean dead, but it doesn't always mean dead forever. Some characters it will, and some characters it won't. I think that is part of... We even say that sometimes when we sit down with actors to let them know their fate at the end of a season. We describe it to them - sometimes in this universe, if something comes to us that's a really organic, cool way to bring a character back and is exciting to us and we feel like doesn't sort of devalue the death, but introduces them in another interesting way into the narrative, I do think that this genre that we're making is different than other shows in that way. So I think that's part of what makes it interesting. We try and hold ourselves to certain standards, but when a character's lost, I think part of the question mark is they could be lost forever and they could not be if we could find a valid, cool way to bring them back.”  WM: “What we try to do also is make sure even if death is not always permanent that it has an emotional impact on the characters regardless of whether we ever decide to bring them back. And on Arrow, we can do that in the flashbacks, and obviously now that we have kind of one universe, we can do it in all kinds of ways on the other shows. But for us, at least in terms of when we're talking about the storylines on Arrow, it always boils down to, ‘What kind of impact will this have on the characters? And is that something that is worth exploring?’" AK: “I think that's the key is the consequences. When Sara was brought back, when Thea was brought back, last year when Barry changed the timeline, this year when Barry changes the timeline, any of these things that feel like the right thing to do, there's always, always a price to be paid, and whether or not that price gets paid immediately like it did with the character at CCPN who got killed or whether that price gets paid later on in ways that you don't foresee, it always comes back to haunt you. Again, whether it's by magic or it's by time travel, we always talk about, on Legends, Vandal is the Big Bad, but truly the Big Bad is time itself. Time wants to go in one direction, and I think that ethos... When people die, the universe wants them to stay dead. Anything you do to change that is going to have, as Geoff said, a cost. And that's what these shows are, these characters constantly paying that price for as much as these powers and abilities and technologies that they have, there's always a price to be paid for using them.” (IGN, TVLine, ETonline and Variety articles, page 106 of Starling City Times thread)
Edited by tv echo
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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

But our Laurel would be dead and stay dead. That is away around what they said while keeping what they said as true. Earth 2 Laurel would be a different character just played by the same actress.  These are the Arrow writers we are talking about I just wouldn't put anything past them doing something because they think it's cool and game changing. 

 

I hope the Flash appearance is just to run out her contract. 

 

However if they make Earth 2 Laurel evil and kill her off again that will make me think they really hate Laurel or KC.

Edited by Sakura12
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

But our Laurel would be dead and stay dead. That is away around what they said while keeping what they said as true. Earth 2 Laurel would be a different character just played by the same actress.  These are the Arrow writers we are talking about I just wouldn't put anything past them doing something because they think it's cool and game changing. 

 

I hope the Flash appearance is just to run out her contract. 

 

However if they make Earth 2 Laurel evil and kill her off again that will make me think they really hate Laurel or KC.

I still swear there was a tweet or something refuting just this scenario. 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

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(edited)

They FIRED her. They don't want her back PERIOD.

...it could be like Ronnie...LL could die in every universe...

IMO, that's exactly what they're doing. They want this death to stick, no gimicks, no "what if's". They're killing her off on Arrow, then they're going to have E2 Laurel either be a villain and die or be a hero and die but they're going to kill E2 Laurel off as well (probably). Finally you're going to have a Lance/Sara scene where they talk about it and, they're going to expressly state why Sara can't go back in time and save Laurel.

Thus eliminating all possible ways to bring Laurel back.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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tangerine95

tangerine95

I think there's zero chance of her being on Arrow as E2 Laurel or on the Flash for more than one episode. They're done with her plus I'm pretty sure they ruled out E2 as a way for a character to return. I wouldn't be suprised if she is playing a villain on the Flash since she's fighting Barry and gets killed off there too.

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