Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Morrigan2575]

Why would they even create another Black Canary? There's no room for BC on Arrow as it is which, is why they'rekilling off the one they have (presumably). I find it hard to believe they're going to make Nyssa or "Chrissy" the new Black Canary.

Sara is harder to argue against but, I wouldn't be shocked to find out that CL and the show runners would prefer to keep Sara as white Canary so they won't be hampered by "because comics" arguments.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[Serena]

I think if they needed a big death for show purposes, they would pay any penalty even if she had a 7 year contract because she's the one with the least storyline potential.

Unless the network employs complete morons as lawyers, they wouldn't need to pay any penalities. Even "7 year contracts" only mean that the network has the opportunity to have the actors on their show for 7 years, not that they have to. Actors can be dropped at any time.

[foreverevolving]

I could see a pitch for Birds of Prey if LoT got cancelled with Sara, Nyssa, Vixen, and Tatsu.  Sara is really popular, so I would imagine BoP would become more of a possibility with her being the lead.

 

Now that's the Birds of Pray show I would watch... but who will take on "Oracle" role? I suppose they can always bring in a protege for Felicity and than ship her off to the BoP.

 

To be honest... I'm sort of shocked they haven't introduced a protege for her yet.. Maybe that's in the cards for next season?

Edited February 28, 2016 by foreverevolving

[Trini]

I don't think they TPTB think it's going to be traumatic but it will be a shocker, for sure. Again, not everybody who watches Arrow is on social media and even those who are on social media may not follow it (case in point, most of my friends). So they won't be aware of this (and I'm not gonna spoil it for them). Also, even though we've repeatedly pointed out on this board that LL is the character who could easily be lifted from the narrative without much impact, I believe the general audience would still not expect her just because she's the second billed, she's a mask, etc. Now, will there be a backlash? A little, I'm sure her fans will throw a fit on social media (it's already happening) but not enough to impact the show, IMO.

 

Oh, she is second-billed? Yep; totally safe.

[statsgirl]

Curtis is Felicity's protege, but I don't see him on BoP. That would be a little too gender-bending for the CW.

Unless the network employs complete morons as lawyers, they wouldn't need to pay any penalities. Even "7 year contracts" only mean that the network has the opportunity to have the actors on their show for 7 years, not that they have to. Actors can be dropped at any time.

But some of the contracts have clauses where the show has to pay a financial penalty if they drop the actor before the end of the contract. We were speculating earlier that that might be the case for KC and why they didn't drop her earlier.

[NoWayOut]

I believe the bulk of the shock and backlash would be due to them having the guts to kill off a huge comic character like Black Canary. They're the same person but Black Canary is a way more popular character than Laurel, if that makes sense.  I can imagine that even comic fans who are non-Arrow viewers would be shocked and angry over the Black Canary's death and not because they killed off Laurel on that one superhero show on the CW.

[AyChihuahua]

Curtis is Felicity's protege, but I don't see him on BoP. That would be a little too gender-bending for the CW.

But some of the contracts have clauses where the show has to pay a financial penalty if they drop the actor before the end of the contract. We were speculating earlier that that might be the case for KC and why they didn't drop her earlier.

Unless they had utter idiots as lawyers, everybody's on year-to-year options. Meaning every year the studio can just not exercise the option, and the actor's gone without any additional payment (although they'd be paid for the rest of the season). (Or, like Roy, they could negotiate them coming back every so often, but then the actor has to agree. See, e.g., Colton Haynes v. Susannah Thompson.)

[Morrigan2575]

I believe the bulk of the shock and backlash would be due to them having the guts to kill off a huge comic character like Black Canary. They're the same person but Black Canary is a way more popular character than Laurel, if that makes sense. I can imagine that even comic fans who are non-Arrow viewers would be shocked and angry over the Black Canary's death and not because they killed off Laurel on that one superhero show on the CW.

Why would a comic fan that doesn't watch Arrow even care? Considering the comics have killed off Oliver Queen/Green Arrow and essentially killed off Dinah Laurel Lance/Black Canary i don't think they'd care about a show they don't watch doing it.

[looptab]

I can't believe this is happening. Is this real life???

But mostly, I can't believe this is happening jus NOW. Couldn't they drop the dead weight last year?? We had to suffer through that awful arc. Through those awful arcs, actually. 

[Trini]

I believe the bulk of the shock and backlash would be due to them having the guts to kill off a huge comic character like Black Canary. They're the same person but Black Canary is a way more popular character than Laurel, if that makes sense.  I can imagine that even comic fans who are non-Arrow viewers would be shocked and angry over the Black Canary's death and not because they killed off Laurel on that one superhero show on the CW.

 

They already did a shocking Black Canary death last year. Two years in a row? Highly doubtful.

[statsgirl]

But mostly, I can't believe this is happening jus NOW. Couldn't they drop the dead weight last year?? We had to suffer through that awful arc. Through those awful arcs, actually. 

 

If they dropped her last season, they would need to kill someone else this seasons for Effect.

 

Also, they couldn't drop her so soon after she became the Black Canary.  They had to play that out for a season at least.

[Mrs. de Winter]

If Canary Cry is the episode title wouldn't that give away the death a few weeks out since the title is included in the press release?  Seems odd unless they are going to narrow down to Lance and Laurel in an earlier episode.  And if it is LL, the only title that might be worse is Pretty Bird (and if Oliver says something like that at her funeral guess we really will know what they think of the character). 

[NoWayOut]

Why would a comic fan that doesn't watch Arrow even care? Considering the comics have killed off Oliver Queen/Green Arrow and essentially killed off Dinah Laurel Lance/Black Canary i don't think they'd care about a show they don't watch doing it.

 

Killing her in a live-action adaptation might be different. I can see BC comic fans getting upset regardless of whether they watch the show or not, just imo.

 

They already did a shocking Black Canary death last year. Two years in a row? Highly doubtful.

 

And then they resurrected her.

[dtissagirl]

If Canary Cry is the episode title wouldn't that give away the death a few weeks out since the title is included in the press release? 

 

Well, sorta. If you know the death is most likely in 418 and the aftermath in 419, then it's spoilery. If you're the average viewer, who doesn't read spoilers, you don't know when the death will happen. Then it's a Laurel-centric episode.

[nksarmi]

They already did a shocking Black Canary death last year. Two years in a row? Highly doubtful.

 

LOL because this show never repeats itself.  I'm sorry - I'm not trying to mock.  But "they did it last year" isn't a real good reason that they wouldn't do something this season.  I didn't even think that was the reason Thea was safe.  I thought she was probably safe because she's Oliver's sister and she "fits" better than Laurel does.

[tarotx]

What I'm looking forward to now is when Sara finds out a Lance died, the conflict she's going to have with Rip and with herself :)

LOL because this show never repeats itself.  I'm sorry - I'm not trying to mock.  But "they did it last year" isn't a real good reason that they wouldn't do something this season.  I didn't even think that was the reason Thea was safe.  I thought she was probably safe because she's Oliver's sister and she "fits" better than Laurel does.

And Season 4 has kind of been a lets do season 3 a little bit better imo.

[catrox14]

 

Why would they even create another Black Canary? There's no room for BC on Arrow as it is which, is why they'rekilling off the one they have (presumably). I find it hard to believe they're going to make Nyssa or "Chrissy" the new Black Canary.

 

 

It seems to me they want BC in Arrow even if she doesn't fit because they could have just left BC out of the show when they killed Sara Canary. I just don't see them putting the time and effort into the entire Laurel becoming BC just to kill her off now.  Maybe at the end of the show they might.

[spartan]

I've prepared myself mentally and emotionally if it is Laurel, I just don't think it is.more so it would be only 4 episode for laurel.

[bijoux]

That seems like a such a terrible thing to do to the actor. 

 

I mean can you imagine if that scene stands as is and it turns out to be someone Oliver barely knows or even hates, like Malcolm. I wouldn't put it past the show.

 

Poor Stephen. LOL

 

The other option is telling him months in advance to the person whose character is actually getting killed off. Knowing that about a colleague and not telling them sounds pretty stressful. Plus, they should be aware of Steve's shitty poker face. If he had known, I imagine people on the set would have figured it out.

 

I wonder if Quentin Lance would have gone to Tommy's funeral.  Maybe he's remembering Sara's while Oliver is remembering Tommy's and that they were both killed by Malcolm Merlyn as is Laurel (assuming it's her).

 

Not that I've given it much thought, but it makes sense he would have gone for Laurel. And he grew to be okay with Tommy who had only turned 28. 

[catrox14]

Different subject but related.

 

I think Malcolm has bigger plans for William. I keep coming back to the Genesis thing. 

 

William has Oliver's DNA. Malcolm long wanted Oliver to be his son.  I joke about Tommy 2.0 but Malcolm never respected Tommy.  He loved him, but he didn't see in him...anything heroic like he does with Oliver. Oliver has rejected him. Thea doesn't have a penis and rejected him. 

 

I'm thinking he might have kidnapped William to get some DNA, like a hair sample or something.  Then he can start growing his own Oliver that he can train to be his protege. 

[FurryFury]

What I'm looking forward to now is when Sara finds out a Lance died, the conflict she's going to have with Rip and with herself :)

 

Me too. If Arrow killed Laurel earlier, they might have retained me as a viewer. But I suspect it's too late for that. Maybe if I hear rave reviews of s5...

 

But right now, I'm way more interested in how Sara reacts to this news and what she does. I kinda expect her and Ray to guest on Arrow before the season's end because of that last episode.

[apinknightmare]

Darhk already explained what Genesis is though. Do you think Malcolm has plans outside of that?

[pootlus]

I can't believe how unreasonably excited I am about this development.

It must be hell for the unspoiled if they've just seen the thread count go up by 7-8 pages.

[ComicFan777]

Different subject but related.

 

I think Malcolm has bigger plans for William. I keep coming back to the Genesis thing. 

 

William has Oliver's DNA. Malcolm long wanted Oliver to be his son.  I joke about Tommy 2.0 but Malcolm never respected Tommy.  He loved him, but he didn't see in him...anything heroic like he does with Oliver. Oliver has rejected him. Thea doesn't have a penis and rejected him. 

 

I'm thinking he might have kidnapped William to get some DNA, like a hair sample or something.  Then he can start growing his own Oliver that he can train to be his protege. 

 

I think it would be an awesome twist if Malcolm kidnapped him and trained him to be an assassin to go after Oliver and his friends - something Damian Wayne-esque.  That would definitely put Oliver in a pickle given his crazy thing about blood family.

 

[bijoux]

Different subject but related.

 

I think Malcolm has bigger plans for William. I keep coming back to the Genesis thing. 

 

William has Oliver's DNA. Malcolm long wanted Oliver to be his son.  I joke about Tommy 2.0 but Malcolm never respected Tommy.  He loved him, but he didn't see in him...anything heroic like he does with Oliver. Oliver has rejected him. Thea doesn't have a penis and rejected him. 

 

I'm thinking he might have kidnapped William to get some DNA, like a hair sample or something.  Then he can start growing his own Oliver that he can train to be his protege. 

 

 

It would certainly be batshit enough for Malcolm, but he's had the chance to get his hands on some of Oliver's DNA for years now and I don't see it connected to Genesis. 

[catrox14]

Darhk already explained what Genesis is though. Do you think Malcolm has plans outside of that?

 

Yes. Malcolm always has his own agenda.  Always. And he's generally steps ahead of his enemy. He had two earthquake machines. He drugged Thea to get her to kill Sara. He manipulated everyone to become Ra's Al Ghul. 

 

So yeah, I think he's got other plans

[Starfish35]

I can't believe how unreasonably excited I am about this development.

I can't figure out how I feel about it. I mean, yeah I wanted it to be Laurel, but...it kind of feels like finding out what your Christmas gifts are in November. Lol. :)

Mostly, I want to know how this is going to affect Sara. How is she going to find out? When is she going to find out? Will she take up the black again to honor her sister? Or keep the white because her sister gave it to her? What will be the explanation for her not trying to go back in time to save Laurel? Lots of questions.

[catrox14]

It would certainly be batshit enough for Malcolm, but he's had the chance to get his hands on some of Oliver's DNA for years now and I don't see it connected to Genesis. 

 

I don't think he was motivated in the same way he is now. 

 

He had Thea in his corner until she wised up.  He couldn't control her anymore. Now that he's lost his hand, he can't fight like he could or do his archery.  He's either gonna need to get a bionic hand or he's going to need to train his protege.  And he does respect Oliver as a fighter so getting his DNA now might be more important than it was before. He's a bitter, angry asshole now.  He's motivated.

[AyChihuahua]

Different subject but related.

 

I think Malcolm has bigger plans for William. I keep coming back to the Genesis thing. 

 

William has Oliver's DNA. Malcolm long wanted Oliver to be his son.  I joke about Tommy 2.0 but Malcolm never respected Tommy.  He loved him, but he didn't see in him...anything heroic like he does with Oliver. Oliver has rejected him. Thea doesn't have a penis and rejected him. 

 

I'm thinking he might have kidnapped William to get some DNA, like a hair sample or something.  Then he can start growing his own Oliver that he can train to be his protege. 

Genesis wasn't Malcolm's project. It was HIVE's/DD's. He's just glomming on to them now bc he lost the LOA.

[Serena]

I finally read canadagraph's Twitter and a) that guy is garbage and b) yeah, Laurel is dead.

[catrox14]

Genesis wasn't Malcolm's project. It was HIVE's/DD's. He's just glomming on to them now bc he lost the LOA.

 

It wasn't his project but there is no way he didn't know about it and wasn't angling for a way to use it to his advantage. Malcolm was Ra's Al Ghul.  Malcolm tampered with a jury to free Moira. See my previous post for the other stuff he's done.  Never underestimate what Malcolm knows. 

[calliope1975]

Genesis wasn't Malcolm's project. It was HIVE's/DD's. He's just glomming on to them now bc he lost the LOA.

 

I kinda love that Malcolm flits from one nefarious organization to another. Your Undertaking and killing of an entire city wasn't completely successful? Plot to take over the LOA. Your magic hot tub and Nanda Parbat BnB was taken away from you? Plot and somehow take over HIVE. What's he gonna do when his Monsanto corn is inevitably thwarted by Oliver and Co.? 

[bijoux]

My money is on ARGUS as Malcolm's next target.

[Morrigan2575]

My money is on Oliver killing Malcolm

Edited February 28, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

I kinda love that Malcolm flits from one nefarious organization to another. Your Undertaking and killing of an entire city wasn't completely successful? Plot to take over the LOA. Your magic hot tub and Nanda Parbat BnB was taken away from you? Plot and somehow take over HIVE. What's he gonna do when his Monsanto corn is inevitably thwarted by Oliver and Co.? 

 

He's nothing if not persistent!

My money is on ARGUS as Malcolm's next target.

 

 The Dark Archer is the Green Arrow's greatest nemesis in the comics right?  I don't see them killing off Malcolm or Laurel until the final season of the show. If he goes after ARGUS that puts Lyla in his sights and Diggle.  Oh crap.....

[bijoux]

Malcolm is a parasite. He just finds a new organism to feed off of.

[SleepDeprived]

My money is on ARGUS as Malcolm's next target.

 

If A.R.G.U.S. was still under Waller, sure. But Lyla's heading A.R.G.U.S. now and she is definitely a lot more competent than Waller was, so maybe not.

 

Is this Murmur leading the beatdown on Darhk in 4x16?

 

[looptab]

You just found out who the old villain coming back is! :)

[Morrigan2575]

Refresh my memory, who is murmur? Totally drawing a blank

[apinknightmare]

Refresh my memory, who is murmur? Totally drawing a blank

The guy who sewed his mouth shut (Felicity didn't realize that was an option).

[Angel12d]

I do wonder how they're gonna deal with DD after 416. Taking him to court and putting him in jail feels so anti-climatic, IMO. I hope there's more to it, though I do still think Malcolm is the 'him' they need to kill. 

[kismet]

He shows up when he needs to bury the person. Robert, Yao Fei, Shado, Sara last year. Given that he's alone in the flash forward, he could show up after the burial.

Yes, OQ is a very hands on funeral attendee. Perhaps thats why BA thought he could be late. BA doesn't like a guy that wants to dig. :)

[nksarmi]

My money is on Oliver killing Malcolm

 

I'd rather it be Nyssa, or if Laurel is dead that Lance just puts a bullet in his head, or hell that Sara gets to do it.  But yea, it's Arrow so probably Oliver.  But damn it, he doesn't want to kill - let someone who would enjoy it do the deed!

[AyChihuahua]

Guggie said Laurel "tries" to prosecute him, so I'm guessing that doesn't totally end his story.

[ComicFan777]

I do wonder how they're gonna deal with DD after 416. Taking him to court and putting him in jail feels so anti-climatic, IMO. I hope there's more to it, though I do still think Malcolm is the 'him' they need to kill. 

 

From the promo, it looks like Malcolm has DD killed or at least seriously injured in prison - it does seem anti-climatic if that's the last we see of him. MG had mentioned that Laurel is going to "try" to prosecute DD, so I don't know if that means DD dies before trial ends or he somehow escapes.  I don't think he is head of HIVE, so it isn't too surprising if we don't see much of him after that.

Edited February 28, 2016 by ComicFan777

[thegirlsleuth]

I do wonder how they're gonna deal with DD after 416. Taking him to court and putting him in jail feels so anti-climatic, IMO. I hope there's more to it, though I do still think Malcolm is the 'him' they need to kill.

I can't believe they would waste Neal McDonough this way. For some reason I think he will be back wreaking havoc next season.

[Chaser]

Guggie said Laurel "tries" to prosecute him, so I'm guessing that doesn't totally end his story.

The fact that he answered that with a smiley cracks me up. An hour later the photos were released so you can just watch the replies start to meltdown.

[Morrigan2575]

The guy who sewed his mouth shut (Felicity didn't realize that was an option).

S3, yeah I've totally blocked that out :-)

[statsgirl]

I wonder if it's based on NMcD's availability next season, or if it's just who they love more, him or Barrowmore?

 

I can see one of them getting killed off this season and the other being the Big Bad for season 5, or if they want another Big Bad, then recurring to be the Big Bad in season 6.

[Julie335]

https://twitter.com/canadagraphs/status/704004106390630401

The pap confirming the death and telling the title of 4x19.

 

Now, I believe it. 

 

I am genuinely surprised. I was starting to warm up to Laurel (I actually liked her) before they unceremoniously killed Sara so that KC/Laurel Lance could the Black Canary. I thought that was crap, and thought maybe it's because they had to make KC the Black Canary as per some contract they couldn't get out of, or pressure from higher powers above.

 

Though I did find they've tried hard to make KC's Black Canary work (Season 3, Season 4). Maybe it was after a lot of effort that the powers above acquiesced that it wasn't working and said "okay"... 

 

I do hope she has a brave/heroic death, at least. 

 

I think they will give her that. They got (deserved) backlash for having Sara killed the way they did (falling on a dumpster), I think that's one of the reasons they won't do that again. Mainly though, I think it's "Because Comics". She's Arrow's official "Black Canary". It's big. So a death befitting a hero's death seems the most plausible to me.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Julie335