Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AyChihuahua]

Probably not because this is just the best storyline ever!!! Ever!!! I do get that they have to sell it but seriously just because an actor enjoys fatherhood doesn't mean that his character should a) be one b) be good at it and c) make for a super awesome storyline. I mean it can be well done but in this case it just isn't and I am really annoyed that they are selling it as hard as they are. 

EBR was much more measured. I mean, I get that he can't rip on his boss's storyline. Obviously. But this is the FAR end of the spectrum away from that. He actually said it's his fave ever. AGAIN. That feels like stubbornness to me, just like when he tweeted the pic with the BM and kid actors right after the terrible response TO this storyline.

[Midnight Lullaby]

It's beyond me that we are supposed to care that Oliver's kid was kidnapped since they aren't even writing him as a real character. Never mind the fact they never showed Oliver being a dad so we don't even know if he cares about it or what he is doing with the kid, but the kid acts like a doll. I feel like they kidnapped Oliver's favorite stuffed animal, not a real person.

Also the message they keep sending that blood family is so above everything else is honestly insulting. So an adoptive kid can't be that important because not being yours you don't have that instant connection every parents feel with their biological kid? Or a parent who raised a kid that isn't his won't ever be important because at the end it's only blood that matters?

There doesn't have to be a choice. I don't understand why they always have to make clear who is the most important person for a character, the second, the third..

[Password]

Just at first. Then she'll hug BM and offer to braid her hair.

Aw c'mon! Did you have to remind me she's going to hug her?

Back to nothing to look forward to.

Except I am genuinely intrigued by how Oliver will explain this. Honestly.

[statsgirl]

I'm intrigued at how the writers are going to try to salve this storyline. Or will they also just say that it's the bestest evah?

[nksarmi]

The thing is, in the first timeline, Oliver did have a chance to say something.  He had enough time to come up with an outright lie and he said that the DNA thing was related to Damian Darkh investigation, when he could have easily been upfront with her and said that he still reeling from the situation - a situation that he is either not ready to explain or that it is something he is obligated to not tell her about, but assure her that it is not dangerous, it's simply he cannot explain it right now.  So I do think Felicity was warranted in getting mad at him when he made an outright lie about Damian Darkh to her face when she clearly presented evidence otherwise.  With the outright lie, it was clearly a breach of trust.

Maybe I'm a bad person or something, but I would definitely get mad at my husband if he just lied to my face and there would be yelling - I definitely wouldn't mince words.

 

I understand what you are saying and most of the time I defend Felicity and Emily's delivery of her "angry" lines.  But in this ONE scene - everything felt wrong to me.  The way she said "you never (and dragged out the never) loved me" and honestly I don't even remember it all because I've tried to block it out as having never happened lol.  But the two things that lingered with me is that Oliver didn't really try to explain - he just lied and then stood there all stone faced and I wanted to slap him.  And Felicity ranted in a very non-Felicity way (to me). 

 

I completely understood her testiness and anger over trying to figure out what happened to tiny Ray earlier this season.  I also understood when she said mean things to Oliver when she and Ray were on the rocks in season three.  Heck, while I thought it was one of the worst set of lines the show has produced - I even kind of understood the "I don't want to be a woman you love" scene.  But this one just didn't ring true to me, so I really don't want to see any kind of reprise of it.

[tv echo]

After reading SA's interview, I think he should stick to acting and leave storytelling to the profesionals (I mean, the ones who don't work on Arrow).

 

I've decided not to watch 415.  Much as I would love to see live-action Vixen, I think that MG will have doubled down on justifying Oliver's secret-keeping and that this episode will only present MG's view of Oliver's decision.  Probably everyone will be on Oliver's side: "Oh, Felicity, Oliver was in a difficult position.  He had to agree to Samantha's ultimatum in order to see his son.  And he had to keep him secret in order to keep him safe!" Yes, he had to be honest with the virtual stranger who deceived him for 10 years, even if it meant being dishonest with the woman who loved, supported and risked her life for him for 4 years.*  I doubt that anyone in this episode will even question how telling Felicity would jeopardize William's safety or prevent Oliver from seeing William. I doubt anyone in this episode will question why Felicity had to still be in the dark after Oliver learned that Malcolm and then Thea knew about his son.

 

(* It was never a choice between telling Felicity and William's safety.  And because of the stupid ultimatum, Oliver was going to end up being deceitful to someone.  It was a choice between being dishonest with Felicity or being dishonest with Samantha, and Oliver chose to be dishonest with Felicity.)

 

Then we'll have Laurel doing the math, but quickly forgiving Oliver after Oliver apologizes to her for being such a crappy boyfriend back in the day, and Laurel will be all understanding that he's a different person now. Maybe they'll have a nostalgic chuckle. Then we'll have Samantha apologizing to Laurel for sleeping with her boyfriend and saying, "I thought you and Oliver were on a break." 

 

On the other hand, we probably won't see Oliver apologizing to Felicity for deceiving her for weeks and months.  Nor will we see Samantha apologizing to Felicity for destroying her relationship.  Instead, we'll see Felicity breaking up with Oliver because, obviously, she's not as understanding or forgiving as Saint Laurel or Holy Mother of Oliver's Son.

 

I get mad just thinking about this episode.  I'm not going to watch because I'm afraid I'll get so infuriated that I'll end up throwing something at my TV and maybe damage the screen.

Edited February 23, 2016 by tv echo

[nksarmi]

I am still at least cautiously concerned that baby momma is going to be in the grave and next season is going to be some wacky version of three superheroes and a baby.  Seriously, I am NOT putting it past this show to have the kid living with Oliver (and Felicity?) while Aunt Thea, Aunt Laurel, and Uncle Diggle have to come up with wacky, crazy ways to prevent William from finding out his dad is the Green Arrow.

[Belinea]

He actually said it's his fave ever. AGAIN. That feels like stubbornness to me, just like when he tweeted the pic with the BM and kid actors right after the terrible response TO this storyline.

 

I truly do believe that he actually enjoys that storyline. God knows why. For me it tarnishes most of the emotional storylines. I get that SA likes different thinsg but to consider this is favorite ever is really wird to me. Yes, parents should love their children but he could have also shown his love for his kid while still telling people closest to him the truth. Considering that it  shows him to be a liar when it comes to his relationship with Felicity, it also proves even after the island he is a liar because he did the same thing to Laurel. Both women would probably seem kind of foolish to excuse this behavior over and over again. We know that Laurel will do it which actually doesn't make me like her more. I hope she is angry at Oliver. 

[apinknightmare]

I am still at least cautiously concerned that baby momma is going to be in the grave and next season is going to be some wacky version of three superheroes and a baby. Seriously, I am NOT putting it past this show to have the kid living with Oliver (and Felicity?) while Aunt Thea, Aunt Laurel, and Uncle Diggle have to come up with wacky, crazy ways to prevent William from finding out his dad is the Green Arrow.

I'd be surprised if William doesn't find out about Oliver being the Green Arrow tomorrow night. This show is wearing its Bad Idea Jeans full time, so...Knowing that Oliver's the Green Arrow will give Samantha some newfound respect for him, so she'll let William know Oliver's his father. They'll hug, and William will be in awe of how cool his dad is! Oliver will probably promise to introduce him to the Flash too, because why not. Everyone looks on with tears*.

Fin

*hopefully before they both board a plane to parts unknown, forever

Edited February 23, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Morrigan2575]

I'd be surprised if William doesn't find out about Oliver being the Green Arrow tomorrow night. This show is wearing its Bad Idea Jeans full time, so...Knowing that Oliver's the Green Arrow will give Samantha some newfound respect for him, so she'll let William know Oliver's his father. They'll hug, and William will be in awe of how cool his dad is! Oliver will probably promise to introduce him to the Flash too, because why not. Everyone looks on with tears*.

Fin

*hopefully before they both board a plane to parts unknown, forever

Honestly, that's what I've been expecting.

[jay741982]

I'm sorry I'm team Felicity after tomorrow s episode . if people turn on her thats their problem she has every right to tell him "If you love me you'd trust me" its been months since he found out and that Piece of Shit Malcolm knows and not her and his bro Diggle. But yet that's ignored so Felicity can get bashed by some people

[Midnight Lullaby]

Me too. They'll hug as a happy family while Felicity sits on her wheelchair looking at them as a future she now believes will never have. HOW FUN.

[ComicFan777]

I am surprised to see that SA didn't spin the storyline to make us more sympathetic towards Oliver.  I would have expected to see that Oliver is apologetic about how the situation went down even though it was for the sake of his son.  I would have thought SA would have made Oliver seem more sorry for his actions against Felicity to make people want to watch the episode.  Instead, he just made it out to be wow, being a dad is great, and it doesn't matter how douchey you are in the process.  So in the cons, when people interpreted that his looks showed that he was unhappy about the storyline - the exasperated look he had was really...I don't want to put up with your complaints...Oliver is a good dad...he really is and I like it so don't talk about it.  It makes sense now why his acting choices were never expressing that Oliver was sorry because he isn't and neither is SA. I even got the impression that he was ok with the breakup even though it was Oliver's actions that caused it.

 

They can't really play up the star-crossed lovers thing with Oliver and Felicity and outside forces getting in the way of their relationship because the force that is keeping them apart is simply Oliver.   

 

It is also really horrible to think that the man that paralyzed Felicity is the one to tell her about Oliver's son.  DD found out before Felicity did - just rub it in why don't ya.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Belinea]

By the way, since DR is on this episode of the Flash, how much will he be in this episode of Arrow?

[Velocity23]

probably similar to what Emily did with 3x17/1x18

[theacostov]

So in the cons, when people interpreted that his looks showed that he was unhappy about the storyline - the exasperated look he had was really...I don't want to put up with your complaints...Oliver is a good dad...he really is and I like it so don't talk about it. It makes sense now why his acting choices were never expressing that Oliver was sorry because he isn't and neither is SA.

I think this is exactly what he's thinking. Yikes I'm worried about what his acting choices are going to be during the break up. If it's not apologetic it's going to be tough for me to give a shit about him.

[ComicFan777]

I think this is exactly what he's thinking. Yikes I'm worried about what his acting choices are going to be during the break up. If it's not apologetic it's going to be tough for me to give a shit about him.

 

Judging from the interview, I think Oliver thinks that he didn't really do anything wrong because he is being a good dad.  I would have expected season 4 Oliver to feel bad especially since he is Guilt Arrow, but not so much when it comes to Felicity, I guess.  Remember, the writers are telling us that blood trumps everything to the point of stupidity. 

 

Seeing that Oliver and Felicity don't really have scenes together post breakup - it doesn't sound like Oliver is not going to be actively trying to be better and try to get her back.  I think he is just going to accept it and move on.  Same thing as always.  It will be up to Felicity to see if she wants to put up with it again. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Chaser]

I never saw his negative expression as having anything to do with Oliver/Son. I saw it as related to how they are having Oliver lie to Felicity.

 

SA seemed to gloss over it in the interview. Whether that is because the episode does or if he himself just didn't want to go deeply into it I don't know.

 

A lot more emphasis seems to be put on it in EBR's interviews. I'm wondering if that is because her character is the one ending the relationship they want her to take the more positive spin well SA is about selling the episode as a whole.

[thegirlsleuth]

If ever there was a time for a patented Laurel crossed-arm glare, it is this storyline.  The less Laurel the better is usually my motto, but I do think she deserves to react to babymama, especially when its thrown in her face. Maybe she will be so angry that Felicity will look moderate by comparison, because I'm getting the feeling that they are not going to place the blame for this on Oliver.

 

I am thinking back to early in the season, when Diggle went off on Oliver, and I pulled his quote: "I couldn't fathom why you didn't trust me. Then I realized you couldn't. It's not who you are. You don't trust. You don't love. You were able to fool Ra's and join the League because inside you are every bit as dark as they are."  At the time I thought it was deeply unfair because Oliver was a different person, but I'm realizing that Diggle was kind of right, although I do think that Oliver loves deeply, its better at a distance.  I'm wondering if the writers will connect these dots but  . . . nah.  They don't consider this a breach of trust.

[nksarmi]

I'd be surprised if William doesn't find out about Oliver being the Green Arrow tomorrow night. This show is wearing its Bad Idea Jeans full time, so...Knowing that Oliver's the Green Arrow will give Samantha some newfound respect for him, so she'll let William know Oliver's his father. They'll hug, and William will be in awe of how cool his dad is! Oliver will probably promise to introduce him to the Flash too, because why not. Everyone looks on with tears*.

Fin

*hopefully before they both board a plane to parts unknown, forever

 

My bad.  You are right.  I was operating under the assumption that we still believed telling people the secret put their lives in danger like we did in previous seasons. And clearly because he's blood, a 10 year old can keep a secret and be trusted when people like Tommy (his best friend) couldn't.  Yea, the kid won't tell a soul his dad is the billionaire Oliver Queen who happens to also be the Green Arrow!

[AyChihuahua]

Instead, we'll see Felicity breaking up with Oliver because, obviously, she's not as understanding or forgiving as Saint Laurel or Holy Mother of Oliver's Son.

I think the overall weirdest things about this SL for me are (1) Oliver's total lack of concern that MM, a supervillain whose hand he just cut off and whose power he took away, who then swore vengeance on Oliver, knows he has a kid. I mean WHAT? I can't stand the dumb kid and even I think that should have resulted in an IMMEDIATE call to Barry to grab the dumb kid and his horrible mother, followed by a team meeting on the WAY to CC to collect them and figure out what to do long-term. I mean really, what the HELL was that?

 

And (2) this idea that BM is anything other than an utterly horrible human being, a terrible mother, and an idiot. They keep telling me she's the Virgin Mary who Oliver knocked up...I guess she was in the other room and sent his sperm flying into her? I mean, WHAT?

 

I'm used to Oliver being stupid, but he's coming across as very severely mentally ill, and BM is probably the worst non-murderer ever to appear on this show. 

[ComicFan777]

At this point, if Oliver doesn't show how truly sorry he should be for throwing Felicity under the train, then I would ok with Oliver going off with BM and starting his normal life with the stupids, while Felicity and Team Arrow continue superheroing.  He can only come back to the superhero club if he decides not to be stupid.  I would be happy with a Felicity and Diggle superhero show and their group of sidekicks.

 

Judging from the next LoT episode, his case of the stupids last a lot longer than one would hope in one timeline, considering he ends up alone, one-armed, and awful facial hair.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Midnight Lullaby]

i just remembered Dig having doubts about his biological brother because he was a criminal and being loyal to Oliver, calling him his brother, even if they aren't related. Sigh. Felicity and Dig are too good for Oliver.

[kismet]

I'm just gonna live watch this show because I don't want to give them any hits on any other sights. No online viewings for me. I know it will bother me to not watch the shows sequentially so I don't have many other options besides watching it live. I don't have Nielsen Box, so my viewing won't matter so long as I stay off Twitter.

 

Honestly, 415 looks like its going to be crap. It's gonna be a poor man's take on kidnapping with a kid that absolutely nobody is invested in because they never bothered to make the kid be important to the narrative. There was never going to be a rewarding or redeeming element to this story after the writers dropped all the emotional beats of the story. I was okay with OQ withholding the truth from FS & TA because he was protecting his relationships. The ultimatum was never going to logical, but at least there was a semblance in truth in it as I could actually see women doing something similar. Not women I would consider good people or heroic mothers, but that's beside the point.

 

It had potential to be a compelling story with possible character growth. But the ship has long since sailed. And frankly, I don't need any more interviews to sell me on a story that has cheated itself out of value. At this point, I feel like they are trying to sell me tix onto the Titanic. I might not have liked the need to lie by omission, but I understood the predicament OQ was in. Basically, I was the perfect audience member for MG. But then he went and screwed it up with MM & TQ getting in on the secret, with OQ reacting with pure stupidity (not even Ollie level stupidity, but something lower). And so, the writers have betrayed whatever hope I had in this story making any important waves for the show or the characters. I'll live watch and just hope they actual make the episode entertaining enough. I just feel bad for Gregory Smith because he always has to direct such duds of episodes.

[Belinea]

This episode is going to be so full of stuff that they can probably never do all the storylines justice... 1. Missing son 2. Felicity's reaction 3. DD and his plan 4. Vixen 5. BM drama with the mom in the lair 5. Everybody else's reaction.  Vixen's storyline alone could take up 1/3 of the episode. It never feels as though the take their time. It is just one big chunk that is thrown at you without any finesse in the way they threw the mess. Just a clumsy 'There you go....do some filling off the blanks yourself, we need to move on the new plot.

 

And I do have the feeling that Diggle's word in the first episode show what Oliver's struggle should be: He doesn't trust therefore he doesn't love. However, if he thinks he did the right thing, how is he going to learn from this. If losing Felicity won't do it, he will probably never see the error of his ways. I really don't expect him to either. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Belinea

[Guest]

i just remembered Dig having doubts about his biological brother because he was a criminal and being loyal to Oliver, calling him his brother, even if they aren't related. Sigh. Felicity and Dig are too good for Oliver.

 

Diggle not only had doubts about his brother but he even beat him up after Felicity was put in the hospital. He was loyal to his new family over his biological one because it was needed and at that time, it was the right thing to do. Felicity even turned her own dad over to the cops because it needed to be done. A hard choice but the right one.

 

Meanwhile, Oliver is like 'eh, blood relatives mean everything even if they're mass murderers and I only knew one existed a couple of months back! Who cares if Felicity and Diggle have supported me through my worst time. Blood wins all!' 

 

I still love Oliver, I really do, but they're making it pretty difficult to fight his corner with this mess.

[kes0704]

The thought of watching this episode after reading the interviews is making me feel ill. I don't even know how the timelines fit into this. Are we following real time with this episode? If so, then I can't buy BM as a frantic and concerned mother if she didn't even realise the kid was gone for a WEEK!

And with Oliver, I would believe he was overwhelmed and frantic because of his love for his child IF I had see anything to indicate that Oliver even remembered he existed in any of the previous seven episodes. This is so, so stupid. Reading SA's interview it seems like Felicity, once again, has to give Oliver pep talk to find another way. They've turned Oliver into a such is a slow learner. I really miss smart and strategic Oliver from S1.

I'm also concerned about SA's statement that they will handle it like adults. He said that in S3 and apparently handling it like "adults" meant not talking for 20 episodes. I do not want to see that again because S3 was awful. I wonder if that's what "handling things like adults" means for SA in real life - just ignore things and hope they fix themselves or just go away.

I'm hoping O/F actually get to talk to each this time and it's not a repeat of S3 or even 408. Oliver needs to say something, explain why, APOLOGISE for lying (it was not a promise!) and valuing BM above Felicity. A puppy dog face and teary heart eyes won't cut it this time. I need to see some remorse for his actions.

I don't even know where they go to from here. Yes, the Arrow mission is just as much Felicity's as it is Oliver's but if they handle the discussion as poorly as they did in 408 I don't know how they can continue to be in the same space afterwards.

This is such a poorly planned and executed story and for the first time ever I'm deeply grateful that I can't watch it live. I will be making great use of the safety net this forum provides for me!

[tv echo]

I just want to thank in advance the people who will be watching 415 live. Your sacrifice is greatly appreciated, and I look forward to your comments.  What little optimism I have left for this episode still hopes that it won't be as bad as expected.

Edited February 23, 2016 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

This episode is going to be so full of stuff that they can probably never do all the storylines justice... 1. Missing son 2. Felicity's reaction 3. DD and his plan 4. Vixen 5. BM drama with the mom in the lair 5. Everybody else's reaction. Vixen's storyline alone could take up 1/3 of the episode. It never feels as though the take their time. It is just one big chunk that is thrown at you without any finesse in the way they threw the mess. Just a clumsy 'There you go....do some feeling off the blanks yourself, we need to move on the new plot.

Also, the flashbacks. I like how they're so meaningless we keep forgetting them. Unfortunately they still eat up at least 10 minutes or so of an episode. Edited February 23, 2016 by lemotomato

[Password]

Tbh at this point the storyline is a train wreck I can't look away from. I'm persevering because I simply have to know the extent of this stupidity.

Whether or not I'll be commenting on the episode in exclamation marks is yet to be seen.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Diggle not only had doubts about his brother but he even beat him up after Felicity was put in the hospital. He was loyal to his new family over his biological one because it was needed and at that time, it was the right thing to do. Felicity even turned her own dad over to the cops because it needed to be done. A hard choice but the right one.

 

Meanwhile, Oliver is like 'eh, blood relatives mean everything even if they're mass murderers and I only knew one existed a couple of months back! Who cares if Felicity and Diggle have supported me through my worst time. Blood wins all!' 

 

I still love Oliver, I really do, but they're making it pretty difficult to fight his corner with this mess.

I agree with you.

And I love Oliver too but not when he is awful to Felicity and Diggle. This is why I had a problem with him in S1 and in S2 during the episodes he was with Sara because he was very dismissive of them. I guess Felicity and Dig have the priority for me because they have been there for him through everything even when his old friends and family weren't and that loyalty is so important to me, it makes me love them.

I need the Oliver who values them back. That's the one I love. Not the one who considers MM a priority.

[Belinea]

I need the Oliver who values them back. That's the one I love. Not the one who considers MM a priority.

If we are lucky he might show up in 4x23. Just in time to get you to come back for next season.

[statsgirl]

If they do the politician/actor: "I'm sorry your feelings were hurt" non-apology apology, I will rage.

It's the very definition of passive-aggressive.

 

I especially love this part of the zap2it interview:

“It’s about weighing out what is important to you. Is this connection that you believe you may not find again with anybody else and that you don’t want to lose with this person — is that more important than risking again whatever value you hold so tightly that they keep making a mistake on?” Rickards asks. “Is it worth having that value crushed again and rebuilt? Is it possible it can be rebuilt? If it is possible for that wound to heal — potentially only to be broken into again — are you willing to risk it?”

It also makes me think that Oliver keeping his plan secret last year will be brought up, and that while Felicity was willing to put it aside, she suffered the blow just as much as Diggle did.

If they do this, I will take back all the horrible things I've been thinking about them.

 

But I'm afraid it's just EBR putting way more thought into Felicity than the EPs do.

 

Diggle not only had doubts about his brother but he even beat him up after Felicity was put in the hospital. He was loyal to his new family over his biological one because it was needed and at that time, it was the right thing to do. Felicity even turned her own dad over to the cops because it needed to be done. A hard choice but the right one.

Meanwhile, Oliver is like 'eh, blood relatives mean everything even if they're mass murderers and I only knew one existed a couple of months back! Who cares if Felicity and Diggle have supported me through my worst time. Blood wins all!' 

 

This is the other thing that would save (maybe) the storyline for me.

[calliope1975]

Old Oliver doesn't even look like he has a Van Dyke. He just looks like he has an unattractive beard situation going on there.

[way2interested]

This is the other thing that would save (maybe) the storyline for me.

Heck, maybe, if Malcolm is the one that Felicity and Oliver want to kill, it could be Oliver acknowledging that blood ties ultimately do not rule over intentions or adoptive relations. Diggle and Felicity have already crossed this realization, and this whole plot could be part of Oliver's own coming to this realization. Oliver would realize that his over-concern with blood relatives has prevented him from helping/supporting/loving those who aren't related by blood. Being hyper-focused on his relationship with his son causes him to not acknowledge Felicity's view and ultimately lose her. Being hyper-focused on saving Malcolm for Thea causes close friend and father figure Lance's death (or close friend Laurel or brother-in-arms Diggle). Recognizing this could be a start to improvement for this whole thing and for Oliver for me.

 

Plus, it would go with what Wendy had been describing throughout the season about the idea of the blood family issues with Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity as well as the adoptive family relations between them. Oliver recognizing the importance of both relations without degrading each other would tie up the family theme in a nice way that doesn't completely save the story but at least gives it a somewhat solid ending.

 

Totally not theorizing on this, just speculating/hoping in a way that would make sense to me. I'm just bored with kid drama plot already and waiting for something new as to what's happening for the rest of the season. 

[Guest]

It's a shame Vixen is appearing in an episode with such a crappy storyline because OMG I have such heart eyes for the actress. She's beautiful! And probably worth so much more than cheap baby mama drama.

[jay741982]

i just remembered Dig having doubts about his biological brother because he was a criminal and being loyal to Oliver, calling him his brother, even if they aren't related. Sigh. Felicity and Dig are too good for Oliver.

Yeah they really are.

[Chaser]

When SA said Olicity were based on more than superhero exploits was he taking a dig at Oliver and Laurel?

[nksarmi]

I think the overall weirdest things about this SL for me are (1) Oliver's total lack of concern that MM, a supervillain whose hand he just cut off and whose power he took away, who then swore vengeance on Oliver, knows he has a kid. I mean WHAT? I can't stand the dumb kid and even I think that should have resulted in an IMMEDIATE call to Barry to grab the dumb kid and his horrible mother, followed by a team meeting on the WAY to CC to collect them and figure out what to do long-term. I mean really, what the HELL was that?

 

And (2) this idea that BM is anything other than an utterly horrible human being, a terrible mother, and an idiot. They keep telling me she's the Virgin Mary who Oliver knocked up...I guess she was in the other room and sent his sperm flying into her? I mean, WHAT?

 

I'm used to Oliver being stupid, but he's coming across as very severely mentally ill, and BM is probably the worst non-murderer ever to appear on this show. 

 

If they a) left out the idea that he's seen the kid since the Hawk cross-over and b) went with this - I could have handled this story line.

[AyChihuahua]

If they a) left out the idea that he's seen the kid since the Hawk cross-over and b) went with this - I could have handled this story line.

Went with which "this"? That his sperm flew into her from the other room, thus she is Baby Mama the Virgin?

 

They could have left out him knowing MM knows, and left out the visits. That wouldn't affect anything that they want to happen. I mean I expected him to visit, but I didn't WANT him to. If they'd stuck with the original lie, not tried to make BM out to be some frigging saint, and not had MM tell him he knows, Oliver's actions would be far less despicable and utterly incomprehensible. What benefit was there to MM telling Oliver he, MM, knows? They could have just had MM go tell DD without explanation beyond "I was Ra's al Ghul." 

Edited February 23, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[jay741982]

I can't believe some people think it's right for Oliver to hold the truth from the woman he claims to love and do whatever this BM demands while MALCOLM knows about the Child and Felicity(And Dig) would keep this boy safe not that piece of shit Malcolm. I'm really hoping Dig(and Lyla) are there for Felicity. Oliver can have his hypocrite sister and possibly because MG is an ass, his ex girlfriend Buckles on his side

[tarotx]

I can deal with this story line if Felicity gets to show her anger and actually breaks up with Oliver and he is broken up about it. Not angry at her, nor the situation but broken up because he caused himself to lose Felicity. And Oliver realizes there are consequences to keeping sections of his life separate.  Even if we want to say Oliver was keeping his 'promise" to BM, he should have at least talked to a lawyer before making the promise. And he should never have asked Felicity to marry him. Even if not asking her when she already said yes would have been awkward. Oliver hasn't learned not to compartmentalize his life so it's not a re learn per say but he finally needs to learn it. Also "Try another way" has also been a theme and it's something Oliver didn't do with BM. She said no you can't tell Felicity so Oliver doesn't even though it's the wrong option. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by tarotx

[lemotomato]

‘Arrow’s’ Emily Bett Rickards: Being shot has changed Felicity forever

From the article:

“I feel, for Felicity, being able to walk again has made her check in with herself about what she really wants to do and whether or not this is a new idea or something that’s been hibernating inside of her — at least she’s accessed it now,” the actress says. “She needs to be able to hold onto this goal and go after it, however she’s going to do it. She just needs to keep on that road.”

Please let this be Felicity deciding to start her own company eventually leading to her taking over the Palmer Tech building as shown in LoT.

Edited February 23, 2016 by lemotomato

[nksarmi]

Went with which "this"? That his sperm flew into her from the other room, thus she is Baby Mama the Virgin?

 

They could have left out him knowing MM knows, and left out the visits. That wouldn't affect anything that they want to happen. I mean I expected him to visit, but I didn't WANT him to. If they'd stuck with the original lie, not tried to make BM out to be some frigging saint, and not had MM tell him he knows, Oliver's actions would be far less despicable and utterly incomprehensible. What benefit was there to MM telling Oliver he, MM, knows? They could have just had MM go tell DD without explanation beyond "I was Ra's al Ghul." 

 

No the calling Barry and having a team meeting to brief them all on what was going on while they figured out how to deal with MM.  They could have even had MM betray him to Darhk, just as long as Oliver was proactively working on a plan to address the issue of MM knowing.  Sure, you are correct that they could have skipped having MM tell him he knew, but once the reveal was made and especially after MM vowed vengeance of him - that was the time for Oliver to come clean.

 

My personal preference would have been - there were no side visits - so Oliver looks at Malcolm as says "How do you know?  I only just found out a couple of months ago and I haven't been visiting him."  Then Malcolm could have said he found out by investigating Moira's financials and he blackmailed her with it at times when he thought about not supporting the Undertaking when she thought Oliver and Robert were dead.  After all, if he ALWAYS knew Thea was his daughter - that blackmail wouldn't have worked.  So blackmailing Moira over her grandson would have been an easy retcon.  So easy as pie, Malcolm knew even before Oliver.

 

Then Malcolm's vow of vengeance stresses Oliver out (rather than makes him want to rush the wedding) and when Felicity asks - and pushes for him to answer - he does and they put a plan in place to try to protect the kid.  Sure, the plan can fail and Darhk can still get the kid and we can still get the episode with Vixen, but at least the whole story would have worked better. 

 

Of course, if they wrote the story logically and in such as a way to make Oliver seem semi-intelligent, they couldn't get the manufactured angst and break up.

[HighHopes]

From the article:

Please let this be Felicity deciding to start her own company resulting in her taking over the Palmer Tech building as shown in LoT

I'm seeing talk on Twitter about it being about Felicity finally training? And I'm not sure it is training since EBR already headcanon's that Felicity trains. So hopefully it's starting her own company- girl deserves something that is all about her for once. 

[AyChihuahua]

They could have even had Malcolm say Moira told him. She found out about the kid prior to the Gambit, meaning prior to learning Malcolm was evil. So in a moment of weakness she confides in Malcolm. Later, when he realized Oliver was his enemy in the S1/2 hiatus he could have found out details such as the kid's name and held onto them until he needed them. Easy-peasy, no need for Oliver to visit.

Edited February 23, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[ComicFan777]

It's been bothering me that in the episode with Malcolm Merlyn, they emphasized so much what lengths Oliver would go to to try to find another way to save Malcolm for Thea.  Even when Malcolm posed the question about William vs the city, Oliver said that he would come up with another way.  When it came to the ultimatum with BM, he barely hesitated and never showed that he even tried to find another way.  I found that really disturbing and really makes me question how much does Oliver really care about Felicity if he didn't even really bother to find another way...and then it made me really sad to think about how little he values her...Oliver threw everything away with Felicity so that he can play action figures with a boy that doesn't even know he is his father.  It is really hard to be sympathetic with what Oliver is going through right now.  I wonder how many Central City visits he has made in this time that it was enough to trump everything he has with Felicity and to make him the most important person in his life.

Edited February 23, 2016 by ComicFan777

[lemotomato]

I'm seeing talk on Twitter about it being about Felicity finally training? And I'm not sure it is training since EBR already headcanon's that Felicity trains. So hopefully it's starting her own company- girl deserves something that is all about her for once.

That's why I want it for her too. She's always been shown as the best teammate, working with Oliver on Team Arrow and with Ray at PT, so having her own company means she's the lead, not the support, for once. And it also means that the CEO storyline didn't actually get co-opted by Curtis.

Plus, with all the talk about comic destinies, everyone forgets that OG Felicity Smoak from the comics ran her own tech company.

[Ann Mack]

I just posted an amazing pic in the spoiler thread about Oliver and Felicity. Marc ass is SCARED!!!

[jay741982]

More proof he's an ass