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Spoiler Discussion Thread

Morrigan2575

By Morrigan2575
in Arrow

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nksarmi

nksarmi

It kind of makes you wonder if anyone sits around and tosses out alternate ideas and MG just shoots them down or what. I think the most frustrating thing about this show (which I used to think was really fantastic) is that in a lot of cases - a better storyline (that fits the characters as written) was available to them. 

 

-It's like they could have expanded Laurel's self-defense classes that her dad made her take to say she took martial arts classes when Oliver and Sara died to deal with the pain (just to give her a better setup as BC). 

-They could have made Quentin's manhunt last season about Oliver knowing who killed Sara and protecting the bastard who did it rather than the fact that he told him Sara wasn't on the island.

-They could have the breakup this season be about Oliver siding with Malcolm over Nyssa and then they figure out that he saved Vandal Savage or Malcolm betrays them in some other way and Felicity has just had enough of Oliver's bad judgment.

-And if they really needed the kid to be in danger from Darhk, they should have just had Darhk figure it out on his own (maybe while doing opposition research for his wife's campaign someone figures out that Oliver Queen got a girl knocked up when he was in college and Darhk takes it from there). (maybe they could still do this, but it doesn't sound like it)

 

I would appreciate it so much more if Oliver WAS staying away from the kid and Darhk got to him anyway.  I still don't know how the mom will ever accept Oliver being part of the kid's life after this, but that's still the storyline I would have preferred.

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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

Me for all of last summer hiatus and 5A: Me after reading the WM interview from a few weeks back about Felicity's arc giving her a more profound understanding of Oliver: Me after r

BkWurm1
BkWurm1

I tend to think that trying to make KC a place on the show had a ripple effect that did hurt the show pretty badly.  She's what turned Quentin stupid and into a creepy stalker.  So that wipes off the

calliope1975
calliope1975

Challenge accepted.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

Some older stuff I wanted to comment on:

I think Barrowman left a little scenery unchewed there. 

He left it for SA to chew.  Or else SA's been taking acting lessons from him.

 

 

And yes, she needs more chances to work with the team in the field.  Likely that would mean more times where they can't go out in masks.  I want them to use her connections in the Billionaire world to get them into parties or behind the scene access to whatever they need.  I'm bored with just breaking in and fighting guards.  Brute force gets old and dull fast.  They need to mix it up not just for Felicity to have different stuff happen to her but so the same can be said about all the other characters. 

I was listening to an interview with Neil Gaiman this morning about his Sandman reboot and when he was asked why his Sandman was so different from the Marvel & DC comics he loved, he replied that having the characters duke it out and the one who can hit the hardest wins wasn't something he was interested in writing.

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Sunshine

Sunshine

(edited)

I have to wonder if Felicity's arc about her father is going to play out more with Donna & Oliver than actually with dear old dad.  EBR & TA have at least 2 scenes based on preview pictures but I recall a WM interview where she mentioned exploring it emotionally from a what did Donna know view?  With Emily Kinney coming back I wonder if she is Felicity's half-sister.  It would explain why she hated Felicity and went after her in Flash Year 0 comics.  Noah might have left her mother for Donna or got involved with her mother after he and Donna split. She always felt Noah loved Felicity more than her.  When Donna realized his true colors she didn't want anything to do with him.  He was abusive.  Donna would have done whatever to protect Felicity.  Cue Donna understanding Baby Mama and agreeing Oliver did the right thing honoring her request. (I guess Noah could find out first and tell Oliver he was right to do whatever it takes to see his child.)  Donna is in 4.13, 4.14 and 4.17 so far.  In the short term Felicity is probably going to close herself off as was the original plan (Gothlicity!) thinking the only way to be strong is not to need/depend on anyone.  Oliver and Mom lied.  Perhaps an unknown sister tried to harm her.  Her life has been turned upside down.  Cue the limo scene!  Hopefully a thaw starts shortly thereafter.

 

What I really want to know though is will Felicity get a POV or will it all be others' POVs?          

Edited by Sunshine
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

-They could have the breakup this season be about Oliver siding with Malcolm over Nyssa and then they figure out that he saved Vandal Savage or Malcolm betrays them in some other way and Felicity has just had enough of Oliver's bad judgment.

 

I disagree with this one, but your other plot adjustment suggestions sounded great.

 

Breaking up over that would IMO be too big a rift since it would seem to stem from a fundamental disagreement over right and wrong.  The same might be said for BMD but it's a lot more specific and even though Oliver IMO is totally wrong and stupid, his stupidity in it not occurring to him that he could just lie to BM is at least easier to take then Felicity no longer having faith in his general judgment and choices. 

 

Frankly, I just don't think the lie should have happened and Oliver shouldn't be sneaking around to see his kid because either BM is crazy for not wanting anyone to know William's connection to Oliver or she's right, in which case Oliver SHOULD NOT BE IN CONTACT with William.  If she's crazy, then Oliver should be using legal means to see his kid.  If she's right, he should tell Felicity and be content with an occasional snapshot pulled from the security cams at Central Perk (I'm blanking out on what the name of the coffee shop is really called) until it's reasonably safe for the world to know he has a kid. 

 

As for breaking up Oliver and Felicity, how about they just don't and really be pioneers on television.  I know, that ship has already sunk.  But wouldn't it be awesome if MG was just totally trolling us and 4-15 didn't suck ass? 

Ugh I really don't want Felicity mad at Donna as well. Then my fears of Thea like stupidity of running off with Evil father will arise. DO NOT WANT

No, no, she can't run off with her dad because she's mad at everyone, she has to do it because he's blackmailing her!  That way she leaves to save the ones she's leaving. 

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EmeraldArcher

EmeraldArcher

(edited)

Didnt Wendy said they didnt want to make Felicitys story with her father similar to Theas.

No, I think she said that they didn't want to repeat the same beats as Thea's father being the Big Bad when asked about why they veered away from having Darhk be Felicity's father. Wendy said that the Calculator is more of a morally gray character so they've left his motives ambiguous. They wanted him to be able to return, and he couldn't have done that if he'd been defeated as the S4 Big Bad (oh, if only the same were true with Malcolm!). I'm referencing the video interview posted in the Spoiler thread that was released post 4x12. Direct link to video: https://amp.twimg.co...47-58ace8efb8c2

 

If she's right, he should tell Felicity and be content with an occasional snapshot pulled from the security cams at Central Perk (I'm blanking out on what the name of the coffee shop is really called)

@BkWurn1, I sort of hate myself that I'm so sleep deprived I barely know my own name, but when I read this, my mind immediately supplied "CC Jitters." 

Edited by EmeraldArcher
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jay741982

jay741982

She may have but knowing these writers Felicity will be "forced" to leave with Piece of crap dad at the end of the season and when blasted for basically a repeat storyline they will be like "Felicity was forced to leave its not the same" BS when yeah it's basically the same

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bijoux

bijoux

Probbly a draught in the spoilers. Things always happen during those periods.


I've actually been thinking about next season and its big bad. Up until now, we've had:

S1 - Malcolm targets SC, Oliver gets caught in the crosshairs

S2 - Slade targets Oliver, SC gets caught in the crosshairs

S3 - Ra's targets Oliver, SC gets caught in the crosshairs

S4 - Darhk targets SC, Oliver gets caught in the crosshairs

 

Would it mean that season 5 is the time for the big bad to go after Oliver again, with the city being collateral damage? 

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bijoux

bijoux

I've seen this happen multiple times with various posters, so can someone explain why season 4 episodes get referred to as 3xwhatever? Is it ignoring season 3, a typo, Freudian slip, door D?

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tv echo

tv echo

If that shot of the burning Smoak Technologies building is from the "Star City: 2046" episode of LoT (airing Feb. 25), then does that mean Smoak Technologies exists only in the version of the future where the LoT heroes never stop Vandal Savage?

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tarotx

tarotx

I think it's going to be cause Oliver and Felicity break up in 4.15 and then this Lot episode will air. I think it's a sad face nod that the way things are working out right now Felicity won't become a Queen so the company will take her Maiden name instead of Queen.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

415 is sounding more and more like a bummer.  After reading MG's latest tumblr responses, it's really making me not want to watch 415 (BMD, breakup) - and maybe not LoT that week as well (one-armed Oliver, burning ST building).

Edited by tv echo
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way2interested

way2interested

I think it's going to be cause Oliver and Felicity break up in 4.15 and then this Lot episode will air. I think it's a sad face nod that the way things are working out right now Felicity won't become a Queen so the company will take her Maiden name instead of Queen.

When I wanted the other shows to reference Arrow...this isn't what I meant!

 

But, yeah, the LoT episode just has a darkest timeline feel to it. Oliver will probably be revealed to have been alone for the last 20 years or so and for some reason the team would have dissolved or broken up (hence the trashed Arrow cave). It's what I've been expecting from this episode, but I'm not really looking forward to the idea of the fact that the Legends crew fail is part of the reason that Oliver ends up alone, one-armed, and Van-Dyked. 415's probable break-up flows thematically with it, but it just supports the idea that Star City 2046 would happen and that nothing that Oliver or any of the other Arrow characters do now at this point can stop it. 

 

Props to Felicity for keeping the company afloat up until Savage takes over the world, though. And my favorite reply to Marc so far,

https://twitter.com/olicity_north/status/697081763244417026

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nksarmi

nksarmi

(edited)

I'm starting to wonder if Sara and Ray don't get a look at one-armed Oliver and burning Star City where it's clear that Felicity never married and go all "screw it - it isn't history yet" and travel back to the cross-over and tell Oliver to tell Felicity the damn truth - like now!

 

Oh and Bkwurm - I think I would believe a fundamental disagreement about right and wrong more than I can buy into this whole baby momma drama.  But I also think they could get over this fundamental disagreement in time because Oliver CAN learn to think a different way if the people in his life help him recognize just what is so broken with his thinking to begin with. 

 

I don't really blame Oliver for being messed up in the head.  He was a spoiled playboy who has parents who lied and kept secrets all around him, who was rewarded for lying and keeping secrets by a girlfriend who enabled his bad behavior every step of the way, who landed on an island and then with Amanda Waller where lying, killing, and even torture became a part of what he needed to do to stay alive.  Argus itself as an organization under Waller can mess up your head since she sanctions very bad things in the name of doing what is "right."  When Oliver comes back as the Hood he is very much a product of all of that.

 

But then he wants to regain his humanity and become a man again instead of just a vigilante.  This season he decides he wants to be a hero.  The problem is that he has NO idea how to be those things.  Diggle and Felicity should be his morale compass.  But first he really needs to understand how far off he is so he can start consulting them and learning from them.  They both know instinctively (most of the time) that Malcolm is not someone to be trusted or worked with.  But they are so busy trying to support Oliver that they miss the moments when they really need to stand up to him and even teach him.

 

So I think a break up over a fundamental difference in right and wrong could be critical for Oliver realizing that if he wants to be a man that Felicity can love - he needs to understand just how much the island broke him and learn to listen to voices other than his own - since his "inner light" doesn't always seem like the best thing to guide his decision making. 

 

But ultimately - yeah, I would have just preferred they not break up at all.

Edited by nksarmi
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tv echo

tv echo

Oh, and don't forget that 415 is going to be "a real game-changer episode" with regard to the Big Bad...

-- Per MG, fans can expect to be surprised by a twist coming up with the season's Big Bad. MG: "The back half of the season, we're pretty much following the same structure that we have in seasons past where obviously the Big Bad gears up. That said, we're going to throw a hard six in episode 15 that I think will surprise people... We're going to do something that's never been done before on Arrow with the Big Bad. 15 is a real game-changer episode for us."  Also, per MG, this big twist "doesn't involve a character death. It's a move that we've never made with one of our Big Bads." (IGN article, page 28 of Spoilers thread, and page 804 of Spoiler Discussion thread)
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Guest

Guest

(edited)

Smoak Technologies! Look at Felicity slaying every timeline. *happy dance*

 

I seriously couldn't care less what happens on LoT though. Just sounds like a fun 'what if' IMO. Cool cool cool.

Edited by Guest
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Ann Mack

Ann Mack

(edited)

Maybe its my total dislike of Marc G. but I think he really posted that picture and used that hashtag #SmoakTechnologies to try and provoke certain responses from Felicity and Olicity fans. While his immature trolling ass is getting responses I don't think they are the ones he thought he would get. Most responses are celebrating Felicity being a "badass" no matter what timeline she's in. I'm loving it and glad no one right now is feeding the troll!!

 

https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/697076913722929152

Edited by Ann Mack
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HighHopes

HighHopes

So in that one episode of the Flash (thanks to the newspaper) we know that Wayne [Whatever] and Queen [Whatever] merge in the future. But because I do not understand time travel and whatnot, are we sure that is still the original timeline (because of Barry time travelling so much) and that it will still happen? Or is the new timeline going to include Smoak Technologies instead? 

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Ann Mack

Ann Mack

(edited)

So in that one episode of the Flash (thanks to the newspaper) we know that Wayne [Whatever] and Queen [Whatever] merge in the future. But because I do not understand time travel and whatnot, are we sure that is still the original timeline (because of Barry time travelling so much) and that it will still happen? Or is the new timeline going to include Smoak Technologies instead? 

It is suppose to be an alternate universe of what would happen if the "Legends" don't defeat Savage. Right now these AU's are not suppose to effect Arrow or Flash directly. They really need to stop with all these AU's and Earth 2's and what not, it can get quite confusing!!

 

https://twitter.com/OlicityMafia/status/693108255267110913

 

Zap2it released an interview with the Executive producer of “Legends Of Tomorrow” here’s what he said:

 

“The other cool thing is when we go into the future we’re doing the “It’s a Wonderful Life” thing, where it’s like “I wish I was never born.” When we go into our futures, we realize it’s the futures without the Legends in them.”

What does it mean?

 

It means that when the legends travel through time to visit the future … the future timelines they visit are all timelines “without the Legends” in it. E.g “This would’ve been the future if RIP Hunter never would’ve recruited this team of heroes/rogues to save/change the future. I don’t know if you guys are familiar with that episode of Buffy “The wish”? Well, in that episode Cordelia made a wish “I wish Buffy Summers had never come to Sunnydale.” which resulted in a gloomy “present day” Sunnydale. The city was controlled by vampires, Buffy never killed the master in S1, the master killed Buffy instead (Tomboy Buffy) and Willow & Xander were Vampires. Granted there was no “time travel” in BTVS, but it’s the same thing. The LOT Executive Producer said “It’s a Wonderful Life” thing, where it’s like “I wish I was never born.” So basically “Let me show you the future without the legends there to save/change it” … anyway since the legends are NOW here to save/change the future those “futures timelines” we’re going to see in upcoming episodes won’t happen (cancelled/reset) they just end up being “AU futures”. Bottom line, what we see won’t affect the endgame of both Arrow/Flash since it’s NOT THE REAL FUTURE ANYMORE.

 

***The interview above and the comments below are courtesy of OlicityMafia Tumblr Page***

 

That being said, it’s not a coincidence that this episode airs right after 415 meaning it’s an excellent way to troll us after a possible “break up” … showing us an (AU) future in which Olicity never got back together following the 415 break up, and everybody in team arrow is most likely dead, but again like I said it won’t affect Arrow/Flash since it’s not the real future. Hope this helped shed some light.

Edited by Ann Mack
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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

So in that one episode of the Flash (thanks to the newspaper) we know that Wayne [Whatever] and Queen [Whatever] merge in the future. But because I do not understand time travel and whatnot, are we sure that is still the original timeline (because of Barry time travelling so much) and that it will still happen? Or is the new timeline going to include Smoak Technologies instead? 

 

The summary for the LoT episode says a malfunction sends the ship into Star City 2046, and they find a future where they weren't able to defeat Vandal Savage.

 

Two guesses:

 

1. The "malfunction" sends them into an alternate reality future that has nothing to do with Earth 1

 

or

 

2. Since the whole premise of the show is to alter the timeline wrt to getting rid of Savage, they'll see this terribad future and do their best to erase it from this universe's timeline.

 

In any way, I really don't see how this future exists for more than this one episode.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

SUMMARY OF 413 SPOILERS:

 

S4, Episode 13: Sins of the Father
-- Production code: 413.  Director: Gordon Verheul.  Airdate: Feb. 10, 2016.  (MG tweet, page 28 of Spoilers thread)
-- 413 synopsis: "NYSSA MAKES OLIVER AN OFFER – Oliver (Stephen Amell) receives an offer from Nyssa (guest star Katrina Law) that is hard to refuse. Meanwhile, Thea (Willa Holland) continues to battle the blood lust, Malcolm (John Barrowman) steps in to help his daughter, and Laurel (Katie Cassidy) has a heart to heart talk with Nyssa. Gordon Verheul directed the episode written by Ben Sokolowski & Keto Shimizu (#413). Original airdate 2/10/2016." (amellynation article, page 29 of Spoilers thread)
-- See 413 promotional pics posted. (TVLine and GreenArrowTV articles, page 30 of Spoilers thread)

-- In 413 video clip, Felicity's father tells Felicity that he knows that she is Overwatch and that he was the Calculator. (zap2it article, page 31 of Spoilers thread)

-- See 413 "Sins of the Father Scene" promo posted. (413 CW promo video in facebook post, page 31 of Spoilers thread)
-- See 413 extended promo posted. (413 extended promo video, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- See 413 Canadian promo posted. (413 Canadian promo video, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- See 413 Jack promo posted. (413 Jack promo video, page 858 of Spoiler Discussion thread)
-- 413 comic preview posted. (MG tweet, page 31 of Spoilers thread)

-- From MG: "'I can't believe they went there.' - Everyone after tonight's Arrow @MericlesHappen @ketomizu @BenSokolowski @Team_Barrowman @katrinalaw." (MG tweet, page 866 of Spoiler Discussion thread)

-- 413 dialogue tease: "Oh no - you have Mr. Square Bear face." (ArrowWritersRoom tweet, page 31 of Spoilers thread)

-- Per GB, there will be a "shocker" in 413.  (GB tweet, page 31 of Spoilers thread)
-- In response to fan asking for one word descriptions of the next couple of upcoming episodes (after 412), SA: "Duel. Fallout. Ring." (SA facebook Q&A post, page 856 of Spoiler Discussion thread)
-- Donna Smoak (CR) will appear in 413. (SciFiBloggers article and 413 promo pics, page 27 of Spoilers thread)
-- The Calculator (TA) will appear in 413.  (TVLine article and 413 promo pics, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- On whether her father has been keeping tabs on Felicity, WM: "I would say he has not been for most of her life, only in the past few months. It’s sad to say, but he’s not a devoted father! You’ll see a bit more of that [next week], his reasons for doing what he did. But he’s a complicated character." (TVLine article, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- WM: "But Felicity, we really wanted to play the real of someone who is in her twenties and really has not known their father, and what kind of emotions would that bring up for somebody in her position. I think she’s really conflicted. She wants to believe that her father loves her and that he has a vested interest in who she is and knowing her and having a relationship with her, and she feels very torn about that — even though she knows right off that bat, at the top of [next episode], who he really is." (TVLine article, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- On whether Felicity will continue to struggle with being in a wheelchair: “We will definitely feel the weight of it” in episodes to come, WM told Matt Mitovich. “There’s a big decision she and Oliver are going to make at the end of [Episode 413, airing Feb. 10], and it will inform a journey in 414 and 415 that she goes on with respect to how she’s going to handle being in a relationship, from the point of view of somebody who’s in a wheelchair. It’s a very small thing, but it is powerful and it is very emotional.” (TVLine article, page 31 of Spoilers thread)
-- KL: "Between Laurel and Nyssa, the two of those girls have such an amazing relationship. It's complicated, based on loss, friendship, regrets and love. I do have a beautiful scene with Laurel. The two work wonderfully off of each other, but there's so many layers to it. The way the writers crafted that scene is quite spectacular." (ComicBookResources article, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- KL: " I think it's next episode, Katie Cassidy and I have a wonderful scene together. ... It's a very beautiful, sad and yet intimidating scene. I'm really excited for fans to see it and to see what the fan reaction is." (TV Guide article, page 30 of Spoilers thread)
-- WM: "Nyssa has had a long-standing feud with Malcolm (John Barrowman) definitely since episode 403, but it also predates that. She’s going to be basically putting a knife in Malcolm’s back for the rest of the season, and really changing the nature and the context of the League of Assassins as a result." (EW article, page 29 of Spoilers thread)

Edited by tv echo
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HighHopes

HighHopes

It is suppose to be an alternate universe of what would happen if the "Legends" don't defeat Salvage. Right now these AU's are not suppose to effect Arrow or Flash directly. They really need to stop with all these AU's and Earth 2's and what not, it can get quite confusing!!

Thanks! I don't watch LoT so I have no idea what happens with all of the time travel. i just saw a lot of stuff on Twitter about it being called Smoak Technologies because O/F are broken up in the Arrow timeline right now and got super confused. 

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tarotx

tarotx

In 4.8 Oliver and Felicity break up and Savage grows stronger and kills everybody. 4.15 Oliver and Felicity break up and then we see Star city in hell. Umm this baby mama drama is really Savage's best friend. 


Thanks! I don't watch LoT so I have no idea what happens with all of the time travel. i just saw a lot of stuff on Twitter about it being called Smoak Technologies because O/F are broken up in the Arrow timeline right now and got super confused. 

LOT's show runner actually called the episode a ghost of Christmas future episode so it's 100% an alternate future .  

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bijoux

bijoux

And my favorite reply to Marc so far,

https://twitter.com/olicity_north/status/697081763244417026

 

 

I'm sure the Smoak name will also be used to depress Ray a bit about his legacy disappearing. 

 

 

In 4.8 Oliver and Felicity break up and Savage grows stronger and kills everybody. 4.15 Oliver and Felicity break up and then we see Star city in hell. Umm this baby mama drama is really Savage's best friend. 

 

All of this is making me laugh so hard. That is all.

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Guest

Guest

LOL. I think people are having fun with it, saying that this is what happens if Olicity break-up. It's pretty hilarious and I don't think there's any seriousness in it. 

 

I just assumed this was a one-off bit of fun where there will be tears of joy that GA will have a van dyke and one arm. LOL. I don't think it has any bearing on what happens in Arrow.

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bijoux

bijoux

LOL. I think people are having fun with it, saying that this is what happens if Olicity break-up. It's pretty hilarious and I don't think there's any seriousness in it. 

 

I know! That's the most fun fandom's had in a while I feel. It's all, they break up, so Felicity throws herself into work, while Oliver decides to stop look human. Or, do you see armless, goateed GA there in front of Smoak Tech with tears in his eyes every day? It's awesome. :)
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bijoux

bijoux

Does he still shoot arrows?

Maybe with a crossbow. I don't see how he could do it with a bow and arrow with one arm. Plus, at 60, I'm surprised his knees haven't been completely shot. Maybe ST makes great advancements on the replacement front.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I really need this show to buck up and kill off Malcolm. The fact that he's still alive is ridiculous - even with Oliver being Oliver and insisting on keeping around because he's Thea's "family" (LOL), it makes no sense that Laurel at least wouldn't at least give murdering him another shot. Arrow is terrible with plots, it's a given, but the pretzel-twisting they had to do to get him involved last season, and now this season...come on. Please. KILL HIM.

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

Laurel is going to talk Nyssa into trying diplomacy with Malcolm? I hope there's a twist here somewhere because if I were Nyssa, I'd just tranq Laurel and not even let her speak. Didn't this "friend" basically leave her to rot in Malcolm's jail? And yes, I'm with you, apinknightmare, kill Malcolm. I see they're still trying to sell the "he's Thea's father and so deserves to live" bullcrap. 

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Guest

Guest

Yeah, sorry, Oliver's reasoning for keeping Malcolm alive is ridiculous and dumb. He's a mass murderer but he's Thea's dad! Whatever will she do without him?!

 

I think it would be more interesting to have Oliver (or someone) actually kill him and then deal with the consequences with how Thea feels afterwards. That could create much better conflict without anyone looking like an idiot. 

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Guest
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