Spoiler Discussion Thread

[way2interested]

I was kind of having similar thoughts too. Like, Oliver might want to kill Darhk now for what happened to Felicity (which, even though we know she won't die, Oliver didn't, for all intents and purposes Darhk tried, and almost succeeded, to kill Felicity), am I supposed to believe that killing Lance is going to be what sets him over the edge? He may not be all ragey at the grave, but I have no idea if he intends to kill Darhk in 410. Then again, Malcolm has done so many things to Oliver that the same thing applies here to me too. Now, if Malcolm completely betrays them, and does collective awful things on top of actually killing Lance, I think I could believe that Oliver would want to kill him as a final straw. 

 

I just don't think I could take it if Malcolm was a big villain again, for here or s5. They went to too much effort to attempt to make Malcolm this side frenemy, and to quickly switch that around would just be so tiring after bouncing his character along for the last 2.5 seasons. Although, it would be interesting to have someone like Malcolm as a villain, since he knows everything about Team Arrow. Maybe he'd offer his insight to Darhk as a deal to not start a war with the League and to not kill Thea or to gain knowledge about the magic shrine thing or the source of Darhk's powers?

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think "him" being MM would necessarily mean it's Thea. It could be, sure, but convoluted BS plots are the writers' bread and butter for all MM issues after S1. I can really totally see MM teaming up with DD. Sure MM should be pissed at DD for trying to kill Thea, but really, MM is an utter, absolute, total turd and coward. He 100% put Thea in the LOA's crosshairs and kept her there every day with his threats to out her as Sara's murderer. John Barrowman can drone on as much as he likes about how much MM loves Thea and Oliver, but it's all bullshit. MM loves himself. Thea is a DISTANT second, and Oliver is a different hemisphere third. If DD offered to give him some LP water or some Ghosts or like a nice dinner, MM would happily switch sides. So the dead person could be anyone, who MM killed for DD as proof of loyalty or a favor or whatever. 

 

I can't see them killing Thea, bc yes, these guys live for repetition, but that is a very big, very obvious, repetition. (Also Willa Holland is killing it this season and that seems to be getting recognition.)

[Chaser]

If they were planning a curve ball with Malcolm being the killer and not DD, then I have to believe they would know who is in the grave when they wrote the scene.

Unless they wrote the scene and are now fitting pieces into it.

Basically, that grave scene is stupid.

[AyChihuahua]

If they were planning a curve ball with Malcolm being the killer and not DD, then I have to believe they would know who is in the grave when they wrote the scene.

Unless they wrote the scene and are now fitting pieces into it.

Basically, that grave scene is stupid.

Whenever something seems too stupid for them to write it, I remind everyone that Oliver's whole plan re the LOA was to take down the plane and RAG and the virus with it, but he still left ONE WORKING PARACHUTE right there for RAG to use. Literally the dumbest thing I can remember ever seeing on television.

[wonderwall]

I still think they had a shortlist of who the person being killed is whether the killer is Malcolm or DD. 

 

If Malcolm is the killer that automatically takes Thea off the list (imo) so who's left is either:

• Diggle
• Quentin
• Laurel

 

If it's DD, it doesn't cancel out any of the potential victims. 

 

I can see the killer being Malcolm, but what does that mean for DD? Why is he such a huge threat then? IDK 

 

I can actually see a twist where Malcolm/DD have been working together all along lol It would definitely be lame but I can see the writers pulling at that thread

Edited December 30, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

I'm finally OK with how they are writing MM after bringing him back. I think they are writing him as just the right amount of swarmy frenemy, I don't really want them to mess that up unless they have the intention to actual get rid of JB and I don't see them letting JB go until JB wants to go. So I can't take a season of MM as a villain when they likely have no intention to kill him or get rid of him.

 

As for the "HIM" at the grave. I still think the logical answer that is DD and that perhaps its the cumulative of all the bad that DD does that makes OQ want to commit to killing him. The actual death was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It wasn't just the death, it was the combination of all the bad stuff that DD did, because I think FS is just the beginning.

 

I do think that the show could try to be crafty and make the "him" be someone else. I do wonder if it could be MM, since it would also make sense that he would be a short list of people that could inspire OQ to feel the need to kill again. I just don't want it to be. I also wonder if perhaps the "HIM" is the new villain yet to be named for s5. I could see them laying the ground work for an all out mission to find and kill someone in the finale that then is the theme of s5.

[calliope1975]

So maybe it really isn't Darhk? Now admittedly I kept thinking that last season MM was the real villain rather than RAG, and that turned out not to be correct. (Although it should have been, bc RAG was SUCH a fail.) So maybe it's MM? That seems the most obvious second choice. Maybe MM and DD team up and MM is the one who actually kills Quentin or whoever's in the grave? MM has no scruples, so he'd totally join up with DD if it suited his purposes. Then MM could be the bad guy again and Oliver could finally get over whatever weird daddy issues he has going on and just work to freaking kill MM already.

 

I was thinking last week that Oliver might be referring to MM, but I couldn't remember if that had already been discussed. MM has well outstayed his welcome, and I doubt he's cheap. It would be a good way to end that story once and for all, but even so, I don't think Thea is in the grave. Malcolm could just as easily do something shady or stupid that gets grave person dead, and finally giving Oliver the impetus to kill him. 

[AyChihuahua]

I was thinking last week that Oliver might be referring to MM, but I couldn't remember if that had already been discussed. MM has well outstayed his welcome, and I doubt he's cheap. It would be a good way to end that story once and for all, but even so, I don't think Thea is in the grave. Malcolm could just as easily do something shady or stupid that gets grave person dead, and finally giving Oliver the impetus to kill him. 

I've always thought they totally overemphasized Oliver's no-kill vow. He killed Cyrus Gold and planned to kill all the other Mirakuru soldiers by collapsing most of a city block onto them. Killed at least rando LOA guy and RAG in S3. Nevertheless, it would make a LOT more sense that his big vow is re someone other than DD, especially if he starts killing again in 4.10 (and tossing one Ghost off a roof and electrocuting another is pretty murder-y, so I'm going to have a hard time believing he's cool beans re killing DD's henchmen but all moral maven re killing DD). Making a vow to kill MM and having it be a big moment makes much more sense than an obvious and continuing desire to kill DD, because he's worked so hard to keep MM alive (for reasons), up to and including risking his own and Digg's lives.  

Edited December 30, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

Does anyone know how many episodes Donna will be in for in 4b? For some reason I'm thinking 10, 12, 13, 14

[way2interested]

As for the "HIM" at the grave. I still think the logical answer that is DD and that perhaps its the cumulative of all the bad that DD does that makes OQ want to commit to killing him. The actual death was just the straw that broke the camel's back. It wasn't just the death, it was the combination of all the bad stuff that DD did, because I think FS is just the beginning.

That's what I've been reasoning how it might go, but something just feels off to me about the possibility of Lance's death being the final straw. Sure, someone dying is a big affect, but it feels weird that Felicity possibly dying would just be a beginning move against Oliver. The actual beginning move against Oliver was kidnapping all of his friends and having Oliver watch them possibly die right in front of him, now we've got his fiancee brutally attacked and possibly dead right in front of him, and the final straw would be killing Lance? Not to mention that I'm wondering what would stop Darhk from simply attacking Oliver and his friends again, given that 1) Oliver is still alive (since I'm guessing that attack was meant to kill both Oliver and Felicity) 2) Oliver is probably not going to stop running for mayor/fighting Darhk 3)Oliver's friends are all still alive.

 

 

Does anyone know how many episodes Donna will be in for in 4b? For some reason I'm thinking 10, 12, 13, 14

She's not in 12, but yes, 10, 13, and apparently 14.

Edited December 30, 2015 by way2interested

[Lady Calypso]

I'm open to the possibility that the 'him' isn't Darhk. I think the fact that they didn't have Oliver state his name, even though we knew Darhk was the Big Bad at that point, means that the 'him' could end up being anyone. They left it open so Guggie and his minions can decide whether they want to go the easy (and possibly more logical) route of it being Darhk, or if they actually want to commit to a more risky route of it being someone like Malcolm. I do think it will be Darhk in the end, but the fact that they didn't mention the 'him' by name shows to me that they had no idea what they were going to do with that grave scene when they filmed it. Maybe they do now, but I have no doubt they didn't have a solidified, committed plan back in July, or whenever they filmed the scene. 

[chaos is welcome]

Is there any chance the him is slade....that would be glorious, because manu. And then the whole "gotta kill him" thing would be interesting (but slightly confusing)..the whole this happened because you tried to kill him thing felicity said in s2 finale. Killing him didn't work, not killing him didn't work....

It just seems like the s5 villain should somehow come full circle to something in early seasons.

I know you guys have probably discussed ad nauseum, but I was in arrow timeout for oh, a year. Thanks s3.

Eta: another way to consider this might be, who would we be most surprised by Oliver wanting to kill?

The whole gotta kill the dude who did wrong is old Oliver, but not blaming himself is an oliver we have yet to see.

If we were to make a list of people Oliver would be "changing his mind," so to speak about not killing them, who would be on that list?

Man, I really want rezed tommy now...because smart, and also as an opponent in the comics. Would complete the set of resurrected siblings on this show. It would be depressing, though, if the only people who stay dress are moira and shado. Robert queen lives on earth 2.

Edited December 30, 2015 by chaos is welcome

[statsgirl]

Could the "him" Oliver is determined to kill is Anarky?  It keeps both DD and MM around to be villains in the future.

[Primal Slayer]

I feel like they wouldn't put such a big thing on such a small villain.

[BkWurm1]

What about Andy?  What if he earns Oliver's bullseye?  Though now that I type that I'm making myself panic about Diggle. 

 

So nope. Let's take Andy off the table. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

I tend to stick with the simplest explanation is the most accurate. Twisting the show at the last minute away from an Oliver/Darhk confrontation to an Oliver/Anarky or Oliver/Slade or Oliver/Merlyn would pretty much make the entire season pointless and reduce your Big Bad to a joke (IMO).

[bijoux]

Speculation about the "him" being someone other than Darhk is interesting, but it's Darhk. If it's not, I'll be more shocked than I would be with Felicity in that grave.

 

I don't know how I feel about Malcolm being the big villain of S5 to be frank. I'm not really sure I can buy him as honestly intimidating as I did in S1 for that to come off as interesting to me. Narratively on the other hand, it makes sense with "the island" presumably being dealt with that year to circle back to the guy who started that whole ball rolling. In this case, the only other person who makes sense is Robert. He brought Malcolm onto his family. Even on this show, I can't see it being him after a shot to the head, then being pecked by seagulls.

[kismet]

I'm open to the possibility that the 'him' isn't Darhk. I think the fact that they didn't have Oliver state his name, even though we knew Darhk was the Big Bad at that point, means that the 'him' could end up being anyone. They left it open so Guggie and his minions can decide whether they want to go the easy (and possibly more logical) route of it being Darhk, or if they actually want to commit to a more risky route of it being someone like Malcolm. I do think it will be Darhk in the end, but the fact that they didn't mention the 'him' by name shows to me that they had no idea what they were going to do with that grave scene when they filmed it. Maybe they do now, but I have no doubt they didn't have a solidified, committed plan back in July, or whenever they filmed the scene.

Totally agree that they had no plan when they wrote or filmed that grave scene. Whoch is one of the main reasons it was a dumb idea. Nothing is building to that scene, besides them dropping some anvils which they could have done anyway. Also nothing can be trusted from that scene becuase SA had no idea who he was grieving and probably no idea who he was threatening.

That being said, I wonder as a completely out of the box candidate for HIM if it could someone frm LoT like VS. And the reason they had BA there was to setup the need for a crossover.

I still think it is most likely DD that is the him and if not then it will be the 5th season villain to be named. Anarky could work but I just don't see him being that important, then again if they chicken out he is their best scapegoat option. I do not think it is MM because I think the writers lack the balls to do it because they want to keep MM around. It's too soon to put him back in OQs crosshairs.

[quarks]

I think they did have a plan when they wrote the grave scene. That doesn't mean, of course, that they will stick to whatever plan that was - Arrow has changed plans midseason or between seasons before, and it's entirely possible that fan feedback on the first nine episodes may cause them to tweak or completely change their plan.

[kismet]

Well they admitted to not knowing who was in the grave. So that perhaps is their biggest misstep of plan making, if they had a plan at all. They might have a had short list, but still it makes a big difference in how you write and film that scene and subsequent scenes to know whether that grave includes a character expandable like LL, someone replaceable like QL or an easy out solution like Nyssa.

I think their only plan was lets do a flash forward it will be fun and build up hype. Then let's milk the hype for all its worth and all the free publicity. So business wise I think they had a plan, which is working. Creativity wise I think they were just experimenting with oh this looks cool on other shows, lets try it out- without fully comprehending or researching how & why flash fwds were successful on other shows. Because besides the media hype, the flash fwd is really dragging their show down creatively. Which is why in the end this flash fwd death will probably flop regardless of who is in the grave or who "him" is.

Edited December 30, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

They said they didn't know who exactly was in the grave. There is a big difference between having a short list with a couple of possible paths to follow and NOT planning something out.

[Lady Calypso]

They said they didn't know who exactly was in the grave. There is a big difference between having a short list with a couple of possible paths to follow and NOT planning something out.

 

Exactly, hence why I said they didn't have a solidified, committed plan. They probably had ideas, but they didn't want to commit in case they changed their minds, or found a better grave candidate. I have seen people argue that Barry can't be there if it's someone like Lance or Nyssa, but I think Barry would be there for his friends as support, so it just goes back to 'it really could be anyone in that grave' because they didn't commit in the season premiere. If they had, we would have seen another flashforward by now. Instead, they shot it and then let the average audience forget about that scene until now (although don't get me wrong, I actually like that they only had to show the grave scene once; makes it easier to forget about it until I come on here). 

 

Personally, I'm hoping that their original plan was Lance and Darhk was the 'him', but now that people aren't surprised, Guggie decides to change his mind and kill off Laurel by Malcolm's hand, so then Oliver has to get revenge and kill Malcolm. But this is Guggie, after all. He sticks to his guns, the fans be damned. 

[chaos is welcome]

Speculation about the "him" being someone other than Darhk is interesting, but it's Darhk. If it's not, I'll be more shocked than I would be with Felicity in that grave.

I don't know how I feel about Malcolm being the big villain of S5 to be frank. I'm not really sure I can buy him as honestly intimidating as I did in S1 for that to come off as interesting to me. Narratively on the other hand, it makes sense with "the island" presumably being dealt with that year to circle back to the guy who started that whole ball rolling. In this case, the only other person who makes sense is Robert. He brought Malcolm onto his family. Even on this show, I can't see it being him after a shot to the head, then being pecked by seagulls.

You know, I had that thought as well, ESPECIALLY SINCE ROBERT IS ALIVE AND VIGILANTE-ing on earth 2. Doubt that's what it is going to be, but things that make you go hmm.

[TwistedandBored]

It would actually be awesome if they make Malcolm the one who killed the person in the grave. This whole time, Malcolm was just setting up his revenge against Oliver for "killing" his son and he used him to get his power again. Then, season 5 can start as Oliver trying to going after Malcolm coming full circle. Or, not!

[BkWurm1]

It would actually be awesome if they make Malcolm the one who killed the person in the grave. This whole time, Malcolm was just setting up his revenge against Oliver for "killing" his son and he used him to get his power again. Then, season 5 can start as Oliver trying to going after Malcolm coming full circle. Or, not!

It wouldn't have to even be Malcolm trying to hurt Oliver, just Malcolm stepping out of line.  Oliver and Malcolm basically had a truce with the understanding that it was up to Malcolm not to mess up.  Killing anyone Oliver knew would trip over that line.  

[Primal Slayer]

Only way I would want it to be Malcolm as the killer is if they actually intend on killing Malcolm. Guy has so much blood on his hands that it's already hard to imagine everyone tolerating him as long as they have.

[kismet]

It would actually be awesome if they make Malcolm the one who killed the person in the grave. This whole time, Malcolm was just setting up his revenge against Oliver for "killing" his son and he used him to get his power again. Then, season 5 can start as Oliver trying to going after Malcolm coming full circle. Or, not!

I want that, but I want it for s6 - not s5. Because it they do it for s5, what are they going to do with JB in s6 - I doubt the writers want to get rid on him. I guess it could be a 2 season long chase, but that just seems a lot of build up. And the structure of the show does not allow for MM to be in the background while OQ chases him like happens in other shows.

 

I think it is about time we got Bratva and I want them in the present & the past. I also agree with the people on the Hope & Specs page that feel we are do a female super-villain/ season long big bad. So if the s5 superbad does not check off one or both of those boxes, I'll be mad.

[Happy Harpy]

Because besides the media hype, the flash fwd is really dragging their show down creatively. Which is why in the end this flash fwd death will probably flop regardless of who is in the grave or who "him" is.

This is what I was afraid of when they "killed off" Oliver last season. It was imo a short-sighted, cheap stunt, and since it wasn't a disaster rating-wise, the writers had to go for more short-sighted, cheap stunts.

Yet at one point, stunts stop working, wear people off and imo, slowly worn-off viewers are more difficult to woo back than those who raged-quit on a detail that can be corrected.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[jay741982]

What about Andy? What if he earns Oliver's bullseye? Though now that I type that I'm making myself panic about Diggle.

So nope. Let's take Andy off the table.

I could see it happening if Andy Kills Diggle but I don't even wanna think about Dig dying! Felicity is the only non Oliver character I love more than Dig

[bijoux]

It would actually be awesome if they make Malcolm the one who killed the person in the grave. This whole time, Malcolm was just setting up his revenge against Oliver for "killing" his son and he used him to get his power again. Then, season 5 can start as Oliver trying to going after Malcolm coming full circle. Or, not!

I can definitely see Malcolm bending logics to get to Oliver killing Tommy and not, you know, him. However, I will never buy him giving two shits about Tommy. Which is really weird, since he supposedly loved his wife so much and Tommy is their child. Then again, Malcolm's a sociopath.

[TwistedandBored]

I have enjoyed discussing, liking, and venting Arrow with you all. I hope 2016 treats us well!

 

Happy New Years Everyone! May you have a blessed year. 

[Ann Mack]

http://www.greenarrowtv.com/arrow-4-10-blood-debts-official-cw-description/

 

Seriously curious about just how "brutal" they are going to let Oliver get. I hope its turned all the way up to the umpteenth degree boy needs to be causing ALL kinds of havoc and wrecking ALL kinds of shit in Star City. Oh I hope it good! 

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Ann Mack

[way2interested]

It's got to be brutal at least comparative to 409. I mean, Oliver willingly admitted to torturing (and somewhat enjoying it) Ghosts to try to find out the location where Felicity, Thea, and Diggle were being held. Even then, he didn't get any information, he was only able to find them because he called Darhk on a phone that Malcolm got, and that was because Malcolm felt personally involved because of Thea. This time, we're all the way back to square 1 with Oliver trying to find Darhk again, but this time he probably doesn't have Malcolm's inexplicable help and vengeance driving his actions. I'm only pointing this out because, from the promo, something works in finding Darhk, since they seem to find his house. Who knows? Maybe he's even angrier drive for vengeance pushes him to be even more violent and get better results.

[Ann Mack]

I want it to be good in the aspect of him going ALL in on the Ghosts. I'm not looking forward to all of the masks being in on Oliver's vengeance drive. I can see and appreciate Diggle feeling that rage too but I want this to be a solo mission for Oliver. Also, I saw were Oliver and Darhk will once again get into fist a cuffs but I'm really already over this. The show is at episode 10 this season will have it usual 23 episodes  how many more times can they go through the motion of throwing punches then escaping each other? Oliver and Darhk have already come to blows at least 2 times already. I think its time for the show to give them something else to do. I'm hoping that something else will start with episode 10 or shortly thereafter. 

Edited January 1, 2016 by Ann Mack

[Happy Harpy]

I can see and appreciate Diggle feeling that rage too but I want this to be a solo mission for Oliver.

If it's revenge for Felicity, I have the opposite wish. Diggle/Felicity got the short end of the stick since S4-A on, imo, since it was treated as a non-entity and Oliver/Diggle was mistreated, to say the least.

So I would be the happiest OTA fan first ever if 1) Felicity/Diggle retrieved its importance and significance through Diggle's role in avenging whatever happened to her and 2) Diggle/Oliver were united again in order to save their OTA fellow.

[Ann Mack]

If it's revenge for Felicity, I have the opposite wish. Diggle/Felicity got the short end of the stick since S4-A on, imo, since it was treated as a non-entity and Oliver/Diggle was mistreated, to say the least.

So I would be the happiest OTA fan first ever if 1) Felicity/Diggle retrieved its importance and significance through Diggle's role in avenging whatever happened to her and 2) Diggle/Oliver were united again in order to save their OTA fellow.

I think the show will get back to the friendship of Diggle and Felicity I think enough fans have been asking for it. While I do appreciate OTA (they really are the best) I think avenging Felicity is going to be the driving force for Oliver and also that slippery slope of him entering back into darkness. I think Diggle's role will probably be the sounding voice of reason and steady hand of friendship that keeps Oliver from losing himself to the darkness since Felicity will be incapable of doing it. I think Diggle will get his opportunity to have Oliver's back while he's raging I just don't think the writers will go with both of them (just because it will take something away from Oliver's pain and raging anger IMO)

[Primal Slayer]

Sounds like an extended episode with scenes from 4x09.

[Morrigan2575]

Going back a bit to that tumblr/reddit/imdb post about Felicity being in a wheelchair "so deal with it".

I've been doing some research and it looks like y2john (on IMDb) might in fact be Canadagraphs. So take from that what you will.

According to y2john Felicity was filming in a wheelchair up to the break in filming at 414. He also claims to get weekly reports from set and that the crew is referring to Felicity as "Oracle" and/or poor mans Professor X...which makes no sense but, if it's canadagraphs, probably his own bitterness coming through.

I thought she'd be in the wheelchair for 2-3 episodes, since 410 picks up with her in the hospital that would be 411-413. Looks like (if true) she's in one for 414 as well.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[AyChihuahua]

I think there's a decent chance it lasts until the big board meeting, six months from 4.2. Because I think the breakthrough for PT will be something she and Curtis come up with that cures/treats/bypasses her paralysis. 

[Morrigan2575]

That would be 418 which is also when the death would happen. Seems like way too much going on and way to long to keep Felicity in a wheelchair (8 episodes).

Not to mention having Felicity in a wheelchair and having nightmares and learning that Oliver lied all at the same time.

To put that in perspective, it would be the equivalent of Thea finding out Malcolm was her father, getting stabbed and going crazy pants with Bloodlust all at the same time. And all within an 8 episode period instead of 30 episodes (218, 318, 402)

Edited January 1, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[kismet]

I think the show will get back to the friendship of Diggle and Felicity I think enough fans have been asking for it. While I do appreciate OTA (they really are the best) I think avenging Felicity is going to be the driving force for Oliver and also that slippery slope of him entering back into darkness. I think Diggle's role will probably be the sounding voice of reason and steady hand of friendship that keeps Oliver from losing himself to the darkness since Felicity will be incapable of doing it. I think Diggle will get his opportunity to have Oliver's back while he's raging I just don't think the writers will go with both of them (just because it will take something away from Oliver's pain and raging anger IMO)

Sadly, I think even if the writers want to go OQ/Dig on a bro only mission to avenge FS (which would be my first choice), I think they writers for "reasons" cannot do that. They need to include everybody now on missions for "reasons" they hide under teamwork banner. It will be a long time I think before the show will ever be allowed to just have OTA be the focus in any combination. Now that everyone has masks, everyone has to go despite how inorganic to the story or ridiculous it may look. It's like the rules of giving out Valentines or treats on your birthday in school, either you give one to everyone including people you dislike or no one. Same rules apply on new TA, either everyone goes to fight or no one goes. The only exceptions have been solo missions, which are permissible under the new rules. There is no picking or choosing partners anymore, we are a very feelings friendly vigilante troupe.

 

I really want them to get back to OTA & FS/Dig's friendship, but I just don't think that is a direction the writers are allowed to take the show there anymore. Since s3, they have been intentionally writing FS/Dig apart from each other. They have been elevating other friendships for each character that do no include each other. When they did not have to go that direction. Dig could have helped train RP. FS could have helped Dig with HIVE earlier than s4. Instead RP got an island and LL got to be Dig's secret keeper. I don't know why the writers or TPTB have chosen to separate FS/Dig, but they have and its a rare opportunity when we see them interact in a way reminiscent of s1/2. Part of me hopes that with FS injuries, Dig takes over her security and becomes her bodyguard so we get to see them interact- but I know that is a pipe dream. So as much as I want it, I also know with about as much belief its probably not gonna happen.

[way2interested]

I've been doing some research and it looks like y2john (on IMDb) might in fact be Canadagraphs. So take from that what you will.

According to y2john Felicity was filming in a wheelchair up to the break in filming at 414. He also claims to get weekly reports from set and that the crew is referring to Felicity as "Oracle" and/or poor mans Professor X...which makes no sense but, if it's canadagraphs, probably his own bitterness coming through.

Honestly, his bitterness was one of the contributing factors as to why I was nervous about the engagement. I was worried that it was just going to be a bad scene in general, not to mention the way he was trying to sideline it as if they didn't actually get engaged in that scene at all. I wouldn't know how much truth to take in his words about what happens in the story or on set, he could be right and he could be wrong. *shrugs*

Something just doesn't sit right with me for all of this though, and not just because I don't really want Felicity in a wheelchair. The sets aren't really wheelchair-accesible, it would be pretty drama-heavy to drag out a paralysis storyline for long not to mention all of the other things that are happening to Felicity in 4b, and I just wonder how DC would allow them to have so close an association with Oracle given the rumor about Jena Malone's character in Batman v. Superman. I know the show sometimes throws logic out the window, but I feel like something else is missing from all of this.

I do at least feel that the show wouldn't actually call her Oracle.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I agree seems like too much stuff happening to her all at the same time.I find it hard to believe they would have her in a wheelchair for that long.I don't totally buy this tbh.Did this guy ever reveal something from set that turned out to be true?I thought he only gave spoilers when he takes pics of it,like with the olicity proposal.

[AyChihuahua]

I sincerely don't understand the argument that they wouldn't throw all this terrible crap at Felicity because it's too melodramatic and angsty. Have people really just forgotten S3? When Felicity spent basically 22.5 episodes crying because of all the crap thrown at her? Eight episodes in a wheelchair/dumping Oliver for lying/meeting her evil daddy is a comparative breeze. For example, in 3.19 Felicity is strangled nearly to death by that that death eyes guy, in 3.20 she's dumped by Ray, also in 3.20 she loses the love of her life because he's becoming the evil head of an evil group of murderers, in 3.21 he comes back to visit all evil and nearly murders his best friend who's also her best friend, and then he leaves again while she cries alone in the foundry, in 3.22 she learns the love of her life married someone else, and in 3.22 she watches said love of her life walk away while she and all her friends "die." (Quotes for us, not her or the rest of the team, bc they really and truly thought he was helping RAG kill them.)

 

Additionally, it's useful to distinguish bw what one wants and what one expects. I do not WANT Felicity in a wheelchair, or sad, or anything else bad. In S3 I did not want Oliver to make his whole team think he was down with killing them. I did not want Oliver to marry Nyssa. Nevertheless, when spoilers made it clear these things were happening (and MAN were people trying to come up with any crazy theory that it wasn't Nyssa and Oliver marrying, even after pics made it very clear that they were), it became necessary to embrace reality, which is that Guggie thinks melodrama and angst and idiocy are totes awesome. 

 

Re the sets not being wheelchair-accessible, they had Oliver build a secret lair in like a month with some help from Cisco and Felicity. It would take him an hour to put in wheelchair ramps. It'd take the set builders less time. Curtis's lab seems plenty wheelchair-accessible to me, actually all the PT sets do bc they're one level. Re the loft, we've only seen the upstairs in what, one scene? Either mention that they moved to the downstairs guest bedroom or have one line about Oliver carrying her to the bedroom. I mean, they're sets, it's a tv show, it's not like they have to make a real house and/or lair wheelchair accessible. (And actually, IRL they wouldn't have to do anything to PT bc it'd already be wheelchair-accessible, bc pretty much all modern buildings are required to be by federal law.)

Edited January 1, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Morrigan2575]

If we're assuming y2john = canadagraphs then the only thing I know he revealed without seeing is that there was an Olicity kiss in 223. I don't know how he knew it since that was filmed on set.

Have people really just forgotten S3? When Felicity spent basically 22.5 episodes crying because of all the crap thrown at her?

Problem with that argument is that NOTHING in S3 was thrown AT HER. Sara died, Oliver died, Oliver worked with Merlyn and Oliver left for LoA...all of those impacted more than just Felicity and were part of a larger story. The only thing thrown at Felicity directly in S3 was Oliver breaking up with her in 301. Even the LoA capture and faked death was thrown at the whole team, not just Felicity.

So yeah, there is a huge difference between Felicity reacting to other people's shit in S3 and all of that shit happening to Felicity in 8 episodes in S4.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[tangerine95]

Pretty sure its canadagraphs.I saw this person get into arguments on imdb about how horrible EBR is for not signing for him once.

The reason I think its too much to have all this happen is that its like 3 different storylines.Meeting her dad,dealing with paralysis and Oliver lying to her as well as the fallout from that.Imo season 3 was more her reacting to all the misery of the season.

[Chaser]

My biggest problem with all this is I feel it would need a lot of focus on Felicity to properly tell her story. I don't see them devoting that much time to her. I don't want them to half ass this.

[AyChihuahua]

Pretty sure its canadagraphs.I saw this person get into arguments on imdb about how horrible EBR is for not signing for him once.

The reason I think its too much to have all this happen is that its like 3 different storylines.Meeting her dad,dealing with paralysis and Oliver lying to her as well as the fallout from that.Imo season 3 was more her reacting to all the misery of the season.

How is this any different from reacting to the misery of these storylines of this season? The lying thing is likely to start in 4.14, so it won't be a major issue from 4.10-4.13, and then probably only the last bit of 4.14. Her dad is only two episodes. (Plus there's no way they're not going to do their version of Proxy in a wheelchair when her dad returns and/or Oracle v. Calculator.) So the stories would overlap off and on, not straight through for eight episodes.

 

It really seems like people don't WANT these miserable storylines, which I 100% understand and agree with. But I don't see how that translates into the storylines not happening. Guggie et al. do a lot of things viewers don't like, for example stuffing a Jewish woman into a gas chamber during Hanukkah and having Oliver be so dumb that he thinks he should lie to his future wife rather than his former one-night stand who is also a lying hag.

 

To be clear, I'm not positive she'll be in a wheelchair to the board meeting. But if she is still in a wheelchair in 4.14, it's definitely possible.   

[AyChihuahua]

My biggest problem with all this is I feel it would need a lot of focus on Felicity to properly tell her story. I don't see them devoting that much time to her. I don't want them to half ass this.

They half-assed her reasons for sleeping with Ray, they half-assed that breakup, they half-assed any explanation of her feelings for Oliver nearly the entire season. They half-assed Laurel's ascent to Black Canary. They half-assed, at best, the entire season-long plot/Malcolm's reasons for having Thea kill Sara (Malcolm knows an archer cannot beat a swordsman, but still went to a LOT of effort to make an archer fight a swordsman, oh, and denying any involvement with Sara's death even though his whole plan hinged on Oliver finding out he/Thea was involved...luckily Caitlin just HAPPENED to find Queen DNA on the arrow right at the necessary time).

 

This season they half-assed Sara's resurrection, re-ensoulment, and reasons for leaving SC, they half-assed Ray's return/reasons for leaving, they are quarter-assing the flashbacks, they half-assed the hawks' backstory. They half-ass a LOT of Felicity's storylines (and, to be fair, Laurel's). I just don't understand the optimism, unless people really do forget what they didn't like about past episodes.

Edited January 2, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

If they keep the schedule, then 415 is the last episode of sweeps. Maybe Felicity will get up from the wheelchair AND LITERALLY WALK OUT ON OLIVER for being a lying liar who lies. Arrow, please do this because I wanna LOL.