Spoiler Discussion Thread

[catrox14]

Wait, ...have we considered Walter as a grave candidate?

[wonderwall]

I don't think anyone would care if it were Walter... Not in the show, but the audience.

[apinknightmare]

Ultimate troll scenario.

[tarotx]

Oh they could have Oliver and kid have issues because he blames Oliver for his mom's death or the Grand parents blame him and fight Oliver for Costody. Maybe a reason to push Felicity's father issues back is so Oliver and her can have Father/child issues from a near opposite perspective. But not A dramatic opposite-so manageable conflict.

That's something I came up with when a poster in a Facebook club said the reason the show isn't doing Felicity's father is because they decided to kill her off. I'm so done with this death conversation and it hasn't even been a week >.<

[catrox14]

I don't think anyone would care if it were Walter... Not in the show, but the audience.

 

I would care. I thought Walter was great!

[kismet]

I'm still wondering if they're treating Laurel and Black Canary as two different characters in the writers room. Laurel is the character the evol internets hate, so she'll get less and less storylines, while Black Canary is OBVI a beloved comic book legacy, so she gets the screen time and story attention.

They've been avoiding letting Laurel be a lawyer since the start of S3. It's so weird.

I really do think their solution to LL problem was by splitting her character into two. I really do think of them as two different characters, as it seems does the writers. There is no way the way they wrote the character of LL for 3 years that she is ever going to be believable as the full-fledge martial arts extraordinaire BC, no matter how much off-screen training they allude to. If they really want to keep BC on the show, I think they will have something happen to LL that transforms her into BC. Drugs, lightning, swimming in special waters or falling thru times or AUs. Perhaps, they will ship her off to LoT to have the thing happen to her, so they can not force ARROW out realism. Not sure what will happen after that for KC/BC/LL.

 

There was almost no story line for LL as a lawyer or anything really besides lying to QL & making sourpuss faces in s3. It seems like s4 she'll resurrect her sister and then LL will have a lot of free time. The BC might get some stories, but I think they are out of material for LL beyond making her the DA.

 

Although, if we're going for the Because Comics Argument then obviously Laurel is the one to get killed off, since Dinah Laurel Lance doesn't exist in the current DC Continuity.  People should start using that logic for awhile.

 

Think about it, Dinah Drake Lance (Original Black Canary) was killed off; Sara Lance, Original Canary on Arrow was killed off.  Dinah Laurel Lance took up her mother's mantel (after growing up surrounded by JL members and wanting to be just like her mom).  Laurel Lance becomes Black Canary after her sister's death...because she totally wanted to SWF her sister oh and fire inside.  Dinah Drake Lance was brought back to life as the current Black Canary and given her own Team (Birds of Prey/Team 7) Sara is being brought back to life and given her own Team (Legends of Tomorrow).   

 

Dun Dun Dunnnnnn!!!!!!!!!

Thanks! This is why I enjoy having people who read the comics on this forum. Thanks for sharing the comic book knowledge.

Wait, ...have we considered Walter as a grave candidate?

I mentioned it as an out of the box choice. Very slim the show would bother to bring him back to kill him. But he could help mentor FS and then get killed.

[statsgirl]

Would Oliver shed a tear for Walter?  I know he would be sad but would he be crying?

 

I'm betting Lyla is safe because if she died, the first thing Diggle would do is quit Team Arrow so Sara would have at least one parent, and set up that security company the fanfic writers love.

 

I think if they wanted to kill Roy, they would have to bring him back for an arc to get the audience invested in him again.  But I'd like to think that everyone who has died before (Sara, Thea, Roy) is safe now.

[Carrie Ann]

Again, I don't think it matters whether we think Oliver would cry about a person. It's really not relevant if the writers don't know who's dead yet, and it still isn't even if they do. Oliver could just be crying because he's been emotionally battered, he's scared and exhausted, and this is the last straw. (Though I do think he would shed a few tears over Walter.)

 

On a similar note: I don't think we can really put much stock in what MG/WM think the audience will feel strongly about, because they are so often wrong. Like, I found the Akio/Maseo death scenes moving because Rilo Fukushima is a great actress, not because I cared much about those characters either way. But before those episodes, the writers were promising big snotty tears. So no matter what they say, I don't think we can take "the audience will care" as a reason to rule any (non-villain) characters out. They could just mean that we care insofar as it causes pain to other characters we DO care about.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[bijoux]

Echo Kellum has signed onto another show. While he's already said it won't interfere with this particular season, I can't see him being able to commit to being a replacement for Felicity or Diggle if he's committed to something else.

Does this also take his name up on the death watch list?

 

Wait, ...have we considered Walter as a grave candidate?

It has been brougt up but I refuse to entertain this horrid and ridiculous notion. #SaveWalter

[BkWurm1]

There is only one reason why they would kill Felicity and that would be if they are planning on doing romantic Oliver and Laurel.  No other reason outside of EBR wanting to leave makes sense.  So the clues I will be looking for are a change in tone between Oliver an Laurel, not just a needed closure but a new closeness that would show why Laurel would be better for him than Felicity. 

 

In episode one this season - an episode that sets the tone of the season - they didn't have Laurel and Oliver have a private moment of conversation between them.  Not even a meaningful glance or fleeting smile.  Nor a heated fight or a moment of encouragement.  Apart from hoping in his bones he couldn't walk away (a reference that Waller then linked to him still walking in the darkness) there wasn't anything that transpired between them that wasn't generic and a complete non event. 

 

So as of now I have no telegraphed indications of any change to the status of Oliver and Laurel's relationship.  Thus no reason to think they would want to kill Felicity.   

Edited October 11, 2015 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

Even if they wanted to eventually get back to L/O, s4 will not be the season they kill off FS. Also I feel like if they wanted to go O/L, they would not kill FS, but rather send her off so they can keep both fanbases. As long as FS is alive, there is an opportunity for reconciliation & that is drama/angst at its best. The melodrama would be so soapy, but that is how I think they will go if they return to L/O. It will be an actual triangle. Not that I think that is their intention. Never say never and all. But I think L/O is no where close to being on their radar.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I really don't think getting L/O back together is their plan at all for any season.Pretty sure they're totally done with them.

This first episode of season 4 shows to me they're not capable of being convincing as friends or people who can stand to be around each other really.In season 3 you could say that the tension betwen them was due to Oliver working with Malcolm and being against Laurel joing the team but in this episode it was all their anti chemistry at work.

Laurel kept throwing Oliver dirty looks and looking annoyed at his presence when she's the one that along with Thea asked for his help.Oliver looked totally indiferent to her.Once again he was given moments with anyone but Laurel proving once again what a non factor she is in his life.That's the dynamic I expect from them tbh but it sure doesn't help make Laurel feel like she should be on the show let alone the team and IMO there's no fixing that 4 seasons in.

They said they will make them friends this season and they are supposed to have that reverse 2.14 hallway scene but I honestly don't think SA and KC can sell any type of friendship betwen Laurel and Oliver.

Edited October 11, 2015 by tangerine95

[bijoux]

Crossover shoot:

 

 

So who's the guy on Cisco's left?

[BkWurm1]

Hawkman

[kismet]

SA really does look short in that line-up from the angle the shot was taken. I know he is not short... but he looks it.

 

Lastly, bless the wardrobe department and their love of OQ in a leather jacket. He just needs to wear it more often.

[tv echo]

Enter FS, CEO. Her working/running PT is the money & tech advantage required to make TA a success.

When I was reading your post, I had the horrible thought that maybe the EPs would consider killing Felicity an "elegant" way to put the company back in Oliver's hands.  Married or not, Felicity's will could leave Palmer Tech to Oliver, and he then changes its name to Queen Inc.  Surely TPTB can't be that stupid?

There is only one reason why they would kill Felicity and that would be if they are planning on doing romantic Oliver and Laurel.  No other reason outside of EBR wanting to leave makes sense.  So the clues I will be looking for are a change in tone between Oliver an Laurel, not just a needed closure but a new closeness that would show why Laurel would be better for him than Felicity. 

 

In episode one this season - an episode that sets the tone of the season - they didn't have Laurel and Oliver have a private moment of conversation between them.  Not even a meaningful glance or fleeting smile.  Nor a heated fight or a moment of encouragement.  Apart from hoping in his bones he couldn't walk away (a reference that Waller then linked to him still walking in the darkness) there wasn't anything that transpired between them that wasn't generic and a complete non event. 

 

So as of now I have no telegraphed indications of any change to the status of Oliver and Laurel's relationship.  Thus no reason to think they would want to kill Felicity.   

Playing devil's advocate, there arguably were seeds planted in 401:

 

• Laurel was the first person to say that the team needed Oliver back and was the most persistent to get him back.  She jumped on the first excuse to bring Oliver back into her orbit because she still wants him (hence, her intense staring at him at his house as if willing a connection).

 

• Laurel saying, "We're hoping that you can't change who you are in your bones" did not have the same meaning as Waller saying, "You haven't returned home because you feel you're a monster. You're trying to deny it, channeling your killer instinct into something productive. But you can't change who you are in your bones.... Stop trying to run from your inner darkness. Embrace it."  Waller was telling Oliver that who he is in his bones is a monster with darkness.  In contrast, Laurel was telling Oliver that who he is in his bones is a hero who wants to help others.  It's a call-back to the previous episode where she said that she knows who he is in his bones because she's always known who he is deep-down.  (I don't agree, but I'm playing devil's advocate.)

 

• Laurel's fanboy moment, where she 'saves' the little boy at the train station and he looks awestruck at her, while she gives him a wink, is the first of many moments this season that will establish her as the superhero BC, who's noble and good and has a light inside her - one that matches Oliver's GA light. (I'm betting there's a few fight sequences with GA and BC fighting side by side in the near future, including a weapons swap, while exchanging lighthearted quips.)

 

• Even though Oliver's still not responding to her romantically because he's in love with Felicity, once Felicity's gone (as hinted in the gravesite scene), Laurel will be there to pick up the pieces and show him that she's his true soul mate.

 

• Also remember, MG said that Laurel and Oliver will have scenes together in the 5th episode (Constantine ep) and SA said that there will be the opposite of their "hallway scene" this season (not clear if the two spoilers refer to the same scene or different scenes).

 

I know that I tend to interpret things in the worst possible light, but I just want to be prepared.  Now that I've written all that, I need to go wash my hands...

Edited October 11, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

When I was reading your post, I had the horrible thought that maybe the EPs would consider killing Felicity an "elegant" way to put the company back in Oliver's hands.  Married or not, Felicity's will could leave Palmer Tech to Oliver, and he then changes its name to Queen Inc.  Surely TPTB can't be that stupid?

...

I know that I tend to interpret things in the worst possible light, but I just want to be prepared.  Now that I've written all that, I need to go wash my hands...

Step away for the speculation! Breath :) I think per usual you have used logic and intellect to deduce possibilities and scenarios that could happen. You make an amazing Devils advocate. However, I think they are unlikely in s4. Never say never, but even though your scenarios could play out - it doesn't seem as plausible as other scenarios.

 

Sorry to have contributed to your list of reasons FS may be elegantly killed. There are many reasons FS may be killed to hand the company over to OQ, I don't think is one of them. If the writers wanted OQ to be running PT, he would have accepted her early holiday present & took his company back. OQ needs management experience to be CEO again, I think that is what he will learn in the Mayors' office. I feel it is more likely that FS will leave PT when OQ wants to go back into private industry & they will open a company together. I predict it will be a shared dream that they will discover in s5. Conveniently too, it will give a plot line to s5 that will reunite the team together with new obstacles.

Edited October 11, 2015 by kismet

[Belinea]

While I do feel that many people want BC and GA as a power couple, I doubt many people want to see LL and OL as a couple. I just believe that the only reason they'd go there again is because of the comics. Not because of chemistry or anything else. I mean if even the reviewers who hat O/F are not complaining anymore then you basically managed to convince most of the audience. And I do believe that the producers somewhat pay attention to what receives positive feedback. At all those cons nobody is ever interested in LL and OL. Maybe once in a while but I'd believe that would be a hell of a job convincing people that O/L are the best couple ever. Even if Felicity dies, there still might be a comparison and the resentment towards LL might start to once again grow... "Felicity had to die so that Laurel could be the love interest again"

 

Furthermore, LL was the love interest already and GA was with the Canary already. Therefore all the comic book nods have already been done. Not even in the comics do they ride off into the sunset. In the old ones they get divorced, in the new ones there is no connection at all. 

[apinknightmare]

I know that I tend to interpret things in the worst possible light, but I just want to be prepared.  Now that I've written all that, I need to go wash my hands...

 

No offense, but you really, really do. I think you (the collective you, not you, you) can find seeds of pretty much anything in anything if you look hard enough, and I think a lot of your examples are a pretty big stretch. I get wanting to be prepared and all, but O/F are together and pretty great together, like...don't you just want to enjoy that a little? 

[tv echo]

Yes, you're right.  And I did enjoy O/F in 401 (until the last 2 minutes).  In the past few years, I was blindsided by personal tragedy, so now I hate surprises.

[apinknightmare]

Yes, you're right.  And I did enjoy O/F in 401 (until the last 2 minutes).  In the past few years, I was blindsided by personal tragedy, so now I hate surprises.

 

I get that, and I'm not trying to talk you out of your feelings at all. I just think that the case can be made for pretty much anything if you try hard enough to make it, and in the end you might just be making yourself miserable for nothing. 

 

I mean, yes, Laurel asked Oliver to come back, but he didn't go, and more importantly didn't stay until it was Felicity who wanted him to. Yes, they're establishing BC as capable and the female superhero, but that was always going to happen. Laurel needs something to do. And we don't even know what this scene is that they have in ep 5, so it's difficult to speculate at all. For all we know the "opposite" of the hallway scene is just one where they manage to have a nice conversation for once. Or they're reconciling their friendship (which seems far off, since Laurel still acted pretty pissy with him IMO, even when she was asking for his help). I get worrying about it, but you could be worrying about something that a) won't ever happen, or b) will still surprise you when it does. 

[bijoux]

And we don't even know what this scene is that they have in ep 5, so it's difficult to speculate at all. For all we know the "opposite" of the hallway scene is just one where they manage to have a nice conversation for once. Or they're reconciling their friendship (which seems far off, since Laurel still acted pretty pissy with him IMO, even when she was asking for his help).

Oh, please let it be about Thea. It's probably going to be about Sara which is fine, but I need Thea to factor into it and for Laurel to acknowledge her problems especially if they're living together.

[Chaser]

I don't think we were meant to take that bones line like she just knew him so well. They tied it directly to Waller telling him about the darkness on his bones. It's why he didn't want to go back. It was what Felicity and him needed to talk about later.

What I liked about that scene was Oliver's reaction to Laurel plea, he looked like she just told him the soufflé was dry. "Sounds fake but okay. Felicity?"

When SA was asked about Felicity, Sara and Laurel, he said that Olicity was fully together and it was important for platonic relationships. I think that was his way of saying Olicity is it but Oliver and Laurel will be friends so prepare for that.

I'm not concerning myself with the new hallway scene. Narratively I think it has to happen in order to believe these two people are friends. They oversell and I wouldn't be surprised if this was too. Plus they don't want anyone to go there with Oliver and Laurel so I'm thinking we are getting a pretty good Olicity scene in that episode too.

[quarks]

Answering the Oliver/Laurel thing over in the relationships thread.

[bijoux]

What I liked about that scene was Oliver's reaction to Laurel plea, he looked like she just told him the soufflé was dry. "Sounds fake but okay. Felicity?"

 

LOL Oh, just imagine if someone told him that. Laura, you are no longer welcome on my patio. You can take your slow cooker with you.

 

When SA was asked about Felicity, Sara and Laurel, he said that Olicity was fully together and it was important for platonic relationships. I think that was his way of saying Olicity is it but Oliver and Laurel will be friends so prepare for that.

The idea of them becoming friends is sound if they are to be parts of an effective team, I just don't put much faith in it going by what we've got from the actors and the characters in their previous interactions. I won't mind if I'm proven to be legitimately wrong.

[Velocity23]

 

From NYCC sizzle reel.

NYCC sizzle reel

[Starfish35]

Sara! In her black Canary costume!

I wasn't expecting that for some reason. For some reason I just figured they'd jump straight to the white costume.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

Sara!

Curtis and Oliver!

Lots and Lots of action.

[foreverevolving]

Black Canary! Black Canary! Black Canary!!!

 

 

Also Damian and Oliver

Edited October 11, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Morrigan2575]

That is Sara! LOL I had to rewind and freeze because I couldn't believe my eyes. Sara, my beautiful Black Canary, is back. Love that girl!

Edited October 11, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

Already love Curtis with the, "jaw's not right."

And since Sara's out fighting with the others, it seems like Constantine's probably fixing her right up, and we've definitely got the Sara Lance seal of approval coming for Laurel.

I wonder why Oliver appears nekkid in that kiss while Felicity's dressed? Gimme!

The new lair looks badass.

WTF is happening to Ray that could possibly be Felicity's fault? Ugh. It books like he ate bad sushi and is suffering the aftermath.

I want Nyssa to slit Malcolm's throat. Badly.

Edited October 11, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I don't understand the positioning on that kiss. Are they both laying down?

[Velocity23]

OMG!

[Starfish35]

That is Sara! LOL I had to rewind and freeze because I couldn't believe my eyes. Sara, my beautiful Black Canary, is back. Love that girl!

I did too! I was like "wait, that's not Laurel!" Then of course the later scene made it obvious. But the first I rewound half a dozen times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. :)

Edited October 11, 2015 by Starfish35

[apinknightmare]

I don't understand the positioning on that kiss. Are they both laying down?

I don't get it either, but I'll take it!

[bijoux]

Sara! In her black Canary costume!

I wasn't expecting that for some reason. For some reason I just figured they'd jump straight to the white costume.

 

Yeah. I even thought maybe they were reusing old footage.

 

Curtis and Oliver!

 

Jaw's not right. -That's what I keep telling people. Oh. My. God. And Felicity's face! Could that scene be any more perfect?

 

I don't understand the positioning on that kiss. Are they both laying down?

Neither do I but I look forward to finding out.

 

Did Oliver's it's-my-fault syndrome rub off on Felicity?

Edited October 11, 2015 by bijoux

[apinknightmare]

I hope Sara had a spare outfit lying around, otherwise it must be rank.

[bijoux]

NYCC sizzle reel

I actually thought that was Lance with Jerri Ryan but now I relaize it's Oliver. Too bad. If the dude got the chance to take a woman out on a date after all these years maybe he'd get marginally less grumpy and step away from cooperating with Evil Inc.

 

The new lair looks badass.

I want Nyssa to slit Malcolm's throat. Badly.

Lair? Where?! Did not even catch that.

 

As for Malcolm, here's hoping. It's not like it would mean Barrowman's off the show. Malcolm's a reptile anyway, I'm sure any severed body parts would grow back in.

[Chaser]

All I got from the Ray mention is Oliver is going to support her. Actually, I got something else too. Maybe she feels it's her fault because there is a design flaw in the suit and it was her portion of the suit.

Sara looked fantastic. Curious about how they are going to change her costume. Probably some new start on life thing. And yeah. Sara and Laurel are going to be at an even level. Sure.

Loved the Curtis and Oliver scene. What episode do they meet again?

Nothing new from Diggle sadly.

[Velocity23]

 

 

 

 

From the Flash trailer. Barry to Oliver: If you save Star City you can get one also.

[Chaser]

Please give me Olicity/Barry scenes.

[Soulfire]

 

For Science.

[Starfish35]

Lair? Where?! Did not even catch that.

I didn't catch it either.

As for Malcolm, here's hoping. It's not like it would mean Barrowman's off the show. Malcolm's a reptile anyway, I'm sure any severed body parts would grow back in.

Ahahahahahaha that's hilarious. :)

Malcolm better not kill Nyssa I swear.

[theacostov]

Saraaaa! I knew she was coming back, but seeing her in all her badass glory I'm feeling a little emotional right now. I wish we could keep her. 

[bijoux]

Loved the Curtis and Oliver scene. What episode do they meet again?

 

Not really sure. Three or four? But I'm pretty sure this is the Whatcha doin', Curtis? scene.

From the Flash trailer. Barry to Oliver: If you save Star City you can get one also.

Oh, Barry, that's cute. Usually when he saves the city, they try to hunt him down. Might change with the cit'y name changing.

 

 

For Science.

Calm. Down. I'm talking to myself here. So he's lying on his side. Maybe he's hurt and calls her to come over to make him feel better. I don't know. Is this real?!

[Morrigan2575]

Saraaaa! I knew she was coming back, but seeing her in all her badass glory I'm feeling a little emotional right now. I wish we could keep her.

I'm on a giddy little Sara/Black Canary high right now.

[apinknightmare]

I didn't catch it either.

Unless they put a light up floor in PT, she's in the lair when she's watching that video of Ray.

[bijoux]

Unless they put a light up floor in PT, she's in the lair when she's watching that video of Ray.

Thanks. I'll have to go back and check. Oh, how I suffer.

 

For... Well, my enjoyment, really.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Velocity23]

 

[quarks]

I hope Sara had a spare outfit lying around, otherwise it must be rank.

 

Among the lesser known powers of the Lazarus Pit: it immediately provides all of your clothes with a nice fresh lemon scent.