Spoiler Discussion Thread

[Guest]

Yeah, she definitely needs another chance after the terrible glass-throwing/'you stole my life!' incident of s2. Yikes.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Guest

[Sakura12]

I still think having Laurel bring Sara back (while good for me) is selfish of her. It makes it seem like she wants Sara back to for her benefit, another she wants to feel better about herself thing. Without thinking of the consequences and suffering it could cause her sister. If Sara's finally at peace she ripped her away from that, if she's not then she would save her from that but put her right back into the world where she felt nothing but pain and suffering. Then it sounds like that will continue ten fold with Sara having to pay a price to be alive. 

 

So I suppose they can say it's good for Laurel to have her sister back, but I don't see how this is good for their relationship. Sara's going to be even more messed up and now part of it will be Laurel's fault. 

[Guest]

I still think having Laurel bring Sara back (while good for me) is selfish of her. It makes it seem like she wants Sara back to for her benefit, another she wants to feel better about herself thing. Without thinking of the consequences and suffering it could cause her sister. 

 

Well, she chose not to tell her own father of his daughter's death because she didn't want to lose yet another person. Sure, she didn't want to cause him pain, I guess, but there was a selfishness in that decision too. So I think this is totally in character tbh. 

[Primal Slayer]

Well she was a drunk and her unresolved issues with her sister didn't make things any better. Though I don't know how much needs resolved that wasn't resolved in S2.

[tarotx]

LOL Laurel is inherently selfish even if she has a good heart. 

[Primal Slayer]

I still think having Laurel bring Sara back (while good for me) is selfish of her. It makes it seem like she wants Sara back to for her benefit, another she wants to feel better about herself thing. Without thinking of the consequences and suffering it could cause her sister. If Sara's finally at peace she ripped her away from that, if she's not then she would save her from that but put her right back into the world where she felt nothing but pain and suffering. Then it sounds like that will continue ten fold with Sara having to pay a price to be alive. 

 

So I suppose they can say it's good for Laurel to have her sister back, but I don't see how this is good for their relationship. Sara's going to be even more messed up and now part of it will be Laurel's fault. 

I can agree, that I do not want Laurel to be the one to bring Sara back. I just can't see any scenarios where it makes sense.

Well, she chose not to tell her own father of his daughter's death because she didn't want to lose yet another person. Sure, she didn't want to cause him pain, I guess, but there was a selfishness in that decision too. So I think this is totally in character tbh. 

It is maybe a little bit of both. Wanting to spare you're father from possible death isn't really THAT selfish I think.

[Guest]

It is maybe a little bit of both. Wanting to spare you're father from possible death isn't really THAT selfish I think.

 

That's basically what I said?

[tarotx]

Yeah but Laurel being happy that Sara is returning to be an assassin is not positive resolution for the sisters imo. That scene played out as Ok Sara's gone again Hallelujah! 

Well she was a drunk and her unresolved issues with her sister didn't make things any better. Though I don't know how much needs resolved that wasn't resolved in S2.

[Primal Slayer]

That's basically what I said?

And I was basically agreeing with you

 

Yeah but Laurel being happy that Sara is returning to be an assassin is not positive resolution for the sisters imo. That scene played out as Ok Sara's gone again Hallelujah! 

 

That scene played out differently to me. She was happy she was alive and accepted her decision, knew she would be back, and that she was able to take care of herself, she wasn't the same girl who went on Olivers boat where she would have to worry about her.

[tv echo]

From Behind the Mask thread:

I definitely think Laurel should have had the new love interest this season rather than Thea (because Thea had the whole thing with Roy and I'm more interested in how she deals with life after the LP) but it seems like they want to build/focus more on BC so maybe KC should too.

In giving Thea a love interest this season, the EPs have said that they wanted to explore the Oliver S1 storyline of someone balancing a secret superhero life with having a normal life. Quoting from EW and TVLine articles (posted on page 20 of Spoilers thread):

 

MG: “Since season 1, we really haven’t done that much with Oliver trying to keep his secret identity secret on the show... But that’s something we’re going to be playing around with Thea as we get deeper into the season and she tries to balance hopefully a personal life with being a superhero - something she’s never had to deal with before.”

 

WM: "[Thea] is going to have the challenge that Oliver had in the first season of, she’s now a superhero and she wants to have a normal life. She’s got this guy. How does she balance both of those things?"

 

I think the EPs had the choice of going this love interest route with either Thea or Laurel, but not both, because it's basically the same problem - hiding your secret identity from your lover. 

 

However, both Thea and Laurel will be dealing with secret identity issues - just affecting different things.  Quoting from TVLine article (posted on page 19 of Spoilers thread):

 

WM: "She has a secret identity; how does she grapple with that? And she's an ADA, so what kind of impact is that going to have on her decisions as Black Canary - and vice versa?"

 

So you're got the following storylines for them:

• Thea - effects of LP, and balancing secret superhero life with love life
• Laurel - Sara's resurrection, and balancing secret superhero life with work life

 

If you gave the love interest to Laurel, then Thea's left with only the LP effects. (That's not to say they won't end up giving Laurel a love interest in the back half of S4.)

Edited September 30, 2015 by tv echo

[wingster55]

If they aren't doing the crossover stuff..why would Stephen post that picture with Grant?

Or say this on Twitter "@amellywood: Filming today gives me the Jitters."

[dtissagirl]

Probably because Flash is a week ahead on production, so that show is already filming their crossover ep.

[Sakura12]

The scheduling must be a pain with trying to film three shows simultaneously while doing cross overs.  

[dtissagirl]

The scheduling must be a pain with trying to film three shows simultaneously while doing cross overs.  

 

Yeah. I wish with all my heart that the set producers for each of the three shows get hazard pay for this.

 

Also, I'm not gonna be surprised if only Oliver and Barry crossover to each other's shows, and then everyone else pulling double [triple?] duty is from LoT.

[kismet]

I'm hoping Ray is just Comic relief on LOT. BR said he loved the comedy and that's why he loves Ray so fingers crossed that he's just comic relief. I feel like the Felicity haters but I can't help it. I only enjoy Ray when he's comic relief or actually just when other characters or making fun of him....

Well that or maniacal double-crossing evil guy... but I don't think they'll do that to their hero. BR's strengths are his adorkable comic abilities or his ability to be not what he seems (usually evil). He might have a boy-next-door charm in his interviews, but that does not translate to the screen imo. I'm gonna give him another shot on LoT because I feel like for most of s3, the writers were writing a character that was neither RP or in BR's wheelhouse.

 

But the less he is on ARROW, the more I am happier - because I just don't think the ARROW writers get or write RP/ATOM well.

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah. I wish with all my heart that the set producers for each of the three shows get hazard pay for this.

 

Also, I'm not gonna be surprised if only Oliver and Barry crossover to each other's shows, and then everyone else pulling double [triple?] duty is from LoT.

That's what I fully expect to happen.

 

I was actually wondering if LoT doubled up filming 101 and 102, in order to add a bit of a break in filming to allow for 208/408.

[kismet]

My fav line about the renaming the city is when MG said something along the lines of we have to give people a reason not to move away after the last 3 season finales. Um, I think I would still move out new name or no new name. Perhaps an improved govt or security force might get me to stay, but just renaming it wouldn't be enough.

 

I read the situation completely differently, it seems like the City leaders are trying to attract* new & possibly naive people to become the new citizens of Star City to replace the smart people who leave and possibly steal the "ling" letters from all signage.

 

*Edited - because attractive and attract are not the same word. Guess, I still have too much of those BTS photos they posted on the brain. NIcely done wardrobe dept :) Hair dept is doing better, but they still have a learning curve :)

Edited September 30, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

You know I actually agree w/ WM when she says the series started off w/ an S/O/L triangle. It was an unconventional one considering one party of said triangle was dead... The love triangle wasn't set in present time, it was set in the past and had reverberations in the present. 

[statsgirl]

Did SA just tweet "see you in 8 days" or did I read that wrong?  Are they taking a break from shooting?

So it seems Iris (semi expected but still) and Thea are largely missing from the actual crossover action. How wonderful. What purpose does Caitlin even serve?

Caitlin is a doctor and a scientist.  Iris was partway through an undergrad degree when she got a job as a reporter.  Speaking as someone who has a job very nearly unnecessary when the Armageddon strikes (to my shame), if there is trouble, Caitlin is the one who is going to be useful.

 

 

So you're got the following storylines for them:

• Thea - effects of LP, and balancing secret superhero life with love life
• Laurel - Sara's resurrection, and balancing secret superhero life with work life

 

If you gave the love interest to Laurel, then Thea's left with only the LP effects. (That's not to say they won't end up giving Laurel a love interest in the back half of S4.)

I think it's quite clever of them to give the "balancing secret superhero identity with love life" to one, and the "balancing secret superhero identity with work life" to the other. It gives both characters something to do.

 

It is maybe a little bit of both. Wanting to spare you're father from possible death isn't really THAT selfish I think.

Except as they wrote it, she did it for herself, as she told Dinah.  If she was worried about Quentin dying from hearing the news for his sake, she would have told him when he visited her in the hospital where there were doctors and equipment around. She couldn't keep it from him forever.

 

But they wanted to play it with the major drama of Quentin being angry at her and even angrier at Oliver.  That's seems to have carried into season 4 with his "monsters" speech.

 

I just hope Quentin is still angry at Laurel and not just at Oliver.  Everyone was wrong to hide Sara's death but the show made clear it was because they followed what Laurel wanted.

[Starfish35]

Iris was partway through an undergrad degree when she got a job as a reporter.

Brief off topic - sorry - but was this ever clarified in the show that she was actually an undergrad? It certainly treated her like that, but in the premiere episode she was working on her dissertation. That's not an undergrad thing. Was that just one of those post-pilot changes that we were supposed to forget about?

[Morrigan2575]

Did SA just tweet "see you in 8 days" or did I read that wrong?  Are they taking a break from shooting?

 

Arrow premieres in 8 days

[Primal Slayer]

SA meant "see you when the show premieres" since it is 8 days away.

 

She didn't tell DInah she did it for herself. She didn't want to lose her father and wanted to spare her mother the grief. It was a lie that spun out of control and I didn't like her keeping it a secret, found it dumb and unnecessary. But it wasn't just about Laurel keeping her sisters death for herself.

 

Quentin was pissed with Laurel and everyone involved, but of course his relationship with his daughter will trump his willingness to make amends with Oliver who he has never liked in the first place. So if he is still pissed at Oliver, it is realistic that  he would try to move on with Laurel first and foremost.  But I doubt his relationship with Laurel will be golden for a long time.

Did SA just tweet "see you in 8 days" or did I read that wrong?  Are they taking a break from shooting?

Caitlin is a doctor and a scientist.  Iris was partway through an undergrad degree when she got a job as a reporter.  Speaking as someone who has a job very nearly unnecessary when the Armageddon strikes (to my shame), if there is trouble, Caitlin is the one who is going to be useful.

 

 

I think it's quite clever of them to give the "balancing secret superhero identity with love life" to one, and the "balancing secret superhero identity with work life" to the other. It gives both characters something to do.

 

Except as they wrote it, she did it for herself, as she told Dinah.  If she was worried about Quentin dying from hearing the news for his sake, she would have told him when he visited her in the hospital where there were doctors and equipment around. She couldn't keep it from him forever.

 

But they wanted to play it with the major drama of Quentin being angry at her and even angrier at Oliver.  That's seems to have carried into season 4 with his "monsters" speech.

 

I just hope Quentin is still angry at Laurel and not just at Oliver.  Everyone was wrong to hide Sara's death but the show made clear it was because they followed what Laurel wanted.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[statsgirl]

Ah, thanks.

 

Laurel told Dinah that she didn't tell Quentin 'because I couldn't take losing someone else' (paraphrasing because I don't remember the words).    I can understand that feeling in the moment but as the months went on, she should have moved from the Laurel-centric feeling to how Quentin was going to feel and how was the best way to tell him.  Keeping it a secret forever was not really an option.

 

Brief off topic - sorry - but was this ever clarified in the show that she was actually an undergrad? It certainly treated her like that, but in the premiere episode she was working on her dissertation. That's not an undergrad thing. Was that just one of those post-pilot changes that we were supposed to forget about?

 

Many undergrad programs have a thesis requirement.  (Mine did.)

 

Also in the pilot she was supposed to take a sociology course and ended up in journalism (which made no sense since journalism is pretty much the opposite of sociology in terms of how-to).  There aren't that kind of cross-discipline requirements in grad schools.

 

Conclusion:  the writers knew nothing about what university programs involve, or what a dissertation really is (three years out of your life for something you'll most likely never need to do again).

[Velocity23]

 

Felicity’s mom has really got it going on — in that the Arrow spitfire’s Season 4 visit has been extended into multiple episodes.

TVLine — which broke the news of Charlotte Ross’ return for Episode 6 of the new season — now has learned that Donna Smoak will also appear in Episodes 9 and 10.

Sure sounds like mom and daughter will have a lot to discuss/deal with, yes…? A certain CEO’s daddy issues, perhaps? #IfWishesWereHorses

Ross’ previous TV credits include Hit the Floor, Nashville, Glee, NYPD Blue and an Emmy-nominated Days of Our Lives run.

http://tvline.com/2015/09/30/arrow-season-4-charlotte-ross-multiple-episodes/

[Chaser]

Love the #IfWishesWereHorses.

I'm guessing they held off on damseling Felicity till mid season given those episode numbers.

Excited for more Smoak Time.

[statsgirl]

If episode 9 the one before the winter hiatus?  In that case, guess who goes missing/dead this year.....

[kismet]

I also wrote a dissertation for my Undergraduate Degree.

 

And sociology tends to be a common gen-ed or core education requirement course in many colleges - so maybe Iris was just fulfilling a graduation requirement.

 

That all being said, Iris seems older than an undergrad, so I always just assumed it was her graduate degree she was working on.

 

Hopefully, Iris does crossover to ARROW because perhaps we can learn about her degrees since they seem to enjoy revealing that info on another show, not on the character's own show.

Edited September 30, 2015 by kismet

[lemotomato]

I'm guessing Felicity gets kidnapped in ep 9 for the midseason cliffhanger and ep 10 is when they find her?

Not looking forward to 1.5 months full of "Haha! Felicity's dead/gone" comments

[Morrigan2575]

http://tvline.com/2015/09/30/arrow-season-4-charlotte-ross-multiple-episodes/

 

 

If episode 9 the one before the winter hiatus?  In that case, guess who goes missing/dead this year.....

Damnit!  Now I have to watch 9 and 10?!  Geeze.

 

Actually, I think/hope 9 and 10 will be the Daddy reveal, whomever it ends up being.   I don't see a kidnapping either to be honest.  I know it's all the rage around here but I don't think they'll use it.  Especially since no one is going to give a crap after 309...oh Oliver is dead...ya right.  The show tends to go for a big injury in x09 over kidnapping or faked death (still laughable).  I could see Felicity getting hurt in 409 (Oliver got hurt in 109, Barry ended up in a Coma in 209 and Oliver was "killed" in 309) but I don't think they'll have a kidnapping/Felicity missing story over 409.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

I wrote a thesis for my graduate degree, but not my undergrad. I wasn't aware that people did dissertations for undergrad degrees. *embarrassed*

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm guessing Felicity gets kidnapped in ep 9 for the midseason cliffhanger and ep 10 is when they find her?

Not looking forward to 1.5 months full of "Haha! Felicity's dead/gone" comments

 

But then you would get to post that "Surprise, bitch.  I bet you thought you'd seen the last of me" gif when she returns.  That could be fun.

[kismet]

I wrote a thesis for my graduate degree, but not my undergrad. I wasn't aware that people did dissertations for undergrad degrees. *embarrassed*

No need to be embarrassed, every school is different. I think it depends on your degree & concentration as well. Some of my friends just had to do a big project.

[Chaser]

Damnit! Now I have to watch 9 and 10?! Geeze.

Actually, I think/hope 9 and 10 will be the Daddy reveal, whomever it ends up being. I don't see a kidnapping either to be honest. I know it's all the rage around here but I don't think they'll use it. Especially since no one is going to give a crap after 309...oh Oliver is dead...ya right. The show tends to go for a big injury in x09 over kidnapping or faked death (still laughable). I could see Felicity getting hurt in 409 (Oliver got hurt in 109, Barry ended up in a Coma in 209 and Oliver was "killed" in 309) but I don't think they'll have a kidnapping/Felicity missing story over 409.

I hate kidnapping storylines. They bore me to tears.

I want Felicitys Dad.

[Morrigan2575]

I hate kidnapping storylines. They bore me to tears.

I want Felicitys Dad.

Sorry, I didn't mean it's what everyone wants.  I meant it seems to be what everyone thinks will happen.  I'm going against the grain, and saying no kidnapping

[dtissagirl]

So Chrismukkah is officially on then.

[kismet]

Love the #IfWishesWereHorses.

I'm guessing they held off on damseling Felicity till mid season given those episode numbers.

Excited for more Smoak Time.

You see my thought is that Donna will be the one damseled, kidnapped, or killed (please no) in these episodes. I feel like DD might target Donna Smoak, one she seems like an easy target to go after (no offense meant). But by going after her you go after FS, which in turn goes after OQ/GA. It's very devious. He gets his man by convoluted methods, since all of OQ's other loved ones are pretty much well protected by being dead or on TA.

 

As much as I want it to be about FS's father, I personally feel like they might delay that until s4b or even s5. From what WM said during con time, it seemed like they weren't sure what they were doing with PapaSmoak yet, but maybe they figured it out. However, hypothesizing that the multi-ep arc by DS will reveal PapaSmoak is a logical one.

 

I'm just excited for more SmoakTime!

[Guest]

Donna in 2 more episodes means more focus on Felicity which makes me very happy. I can definitely see something happening to Felicity in 409 (which I assume is the last one before hiatus) and then we find out what happened in 410. Can't wait! 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Guest

[dtissagirl]

I just want Papa Smoak to kidnap OLIVER, because let's invert dumb tropes, please.

[Chaser]

Sorry, I didn't mean it's what everyone wants.  I meant it seems to be what everyone thinks will happen.  I'm going against the grain, and saying no kidnapping

That came out wrong. I just meant that you weren't the only one.

 

I just want Papa Smoak to kidnap OLIVER, because let's invert dumb tropes, please.

I want Papa Smoak's introduction to Oliver to be as the Green Arrow. 

 

So how quickly do we think Mama Smoak is finding out about Oliver's costume fetish?

[statsgirl]

But Oliver's already been kidnapped.... by Yao Fei, by Fyers, by Amanda Waller, by Malcolm Merlyn, by Ra's.  Maybe by Slade too.  There is no one more in distress than Oliver.

 

Felicity's father isn't DD but one of his minions, maybe Donna gets kidnapped to force him to work for him.       Not Felicity because Oliver would protect her (I hope).

 

 

I wrote a thesis for my graduate degree, but not my undergrad. I wasn't aware that people did dissertations for undergrad degrees.

The terminology is all over the board. Some people call it a thesis, other people call it a dissertation, and it varies even with universities.

 

Also, Iris was presented as being a graduate psychology student when they first announced the show but I guess they decided to make her a journalist instead like Lois Lane  Unfortunately (to go back to the original post), that means that she doesn't have any skills that would call for her to be in the crossover other than as Barry's girlfriend.

[kismet]

I realize there will be discussion of kidnappings and blackmail and gosh knows whatever other tropes these writers can find... But this-

So Chrismukkah is officially on then.

Can we please make this happen? Whatever needs to happen can happen for plot, but I really miss the holiday celebrations - especially now that the team is a family. I need there to be a Chrismukkah Celebration. Let's have some happy & fun things to look forward to! Party and presents would be perfect way to head off into the holidays.

[looptab]

Not to be a pain, but could we go back to posting links in the Spoilers Only thread?

-someone with a 'where did I read this?'~5 months from now disease.

[dtissagirl]

But Oliver's already been kidnapped.... by Yao Fei, by Fyers, by Amanda Waller, by Malcolm Merlyn, by Ra's.  Maybe by Slade too.  There is no one more in distress than Oliver.

But none of those kidnappings were damseling Oliver so Felicity could save him. Or to get to Felicity, if that's the kidnapper's goal. That's what I meant about inverting the trope.

[statsgirl]

So you're suggesting DD kidnap Oliver in order to get to Felicity and make her do something he wants? 

 

It's possible but the two things make it more difficult:  1. Oliver, as the hero of the show, will be very difficult to kidnap and keep confined  (why Al Sa-him took Lyla rather than Diggle); and 2. What does Felicity have that they want to much. Presumably DD already has her father working for him or maybe DD himself is that tech savvy that he doesn't need Felicity.

 

in the season 8 opener of Castle when he broke the zip ties holding him to the chair and attacked the bad guy, just as Oliver did in the pilot episode, I wondered if the Castle and Arrow writers had been sharing a mind.  Then Beckett pushed Castle away because being with her would put him in to much danger, just as Oliver did to Felicity for 1 1/2 seasons.  If we find out that Felicity's father left because he didn't want to put Donna and Felicity in danger from the bad guys, I'll be convinced of it.

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder if this will set up a Quentin and Donna romance. Laurel/Felicity can become sisters!

 

Can't wait to see Black Canary kicking some ass with tonfas, those things can be badass if used correctly.

[Soulfire]

If Felicity gets kidnapped by Damien Darhk and Evil Inc. - and that's an if - I hope they don't have her return with a hex or mindswap or something. PLEASE NO. I really don't like the imposter trope.

[DrSpaceman10]

I wonder if this will set up a Quentin and Donna romance. Laurel/Felicity can become sisters!

 

[Chaser]

If Felicity gets kidnapped by Damien Darhk and Evil Inc. - and that's an if - I hope they don't have her return with a hex or mindswap or something. PLEASE NO. I really don't like the imposter trope.

But FROGS!

[dtissagirl]

So you're suggesting DD kidnap Oliver in order to get to Felicity and make her do something he wants?

 

No, I meant Papa Smoak kidnapping Oliver. I'm still not convinced DD and Papa Smoak are the same person.

 

DD has no reason to kidnap Oliver. If Papa Smoak thinks Felicity won't help him with whatever [escaping DD, for example], unless he has some leverage above her, it could work for me.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I wonder if this will set up a Quentin and Donna romance. Laurel/Felicity can become sisters!

 

 

I think Donna is only going to be in like three episodes.  That seems awfully fast to meet, fall in love, and get married... Plus, romance ≠ marriage.

Edited September 30, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit