Spoiler Discussion Thread

[apinknightmare]

I got the feeling from the LoT trailer that Ray is going to be mini for a while. I wonder if he'll even interact with people that much, or if they'll have Felicity or someone figure out pretty early on that he's not dead, he's just tiny, and get him regular-sized again. Or if regular-sized Team Arrow (or, ugh, just Felicity and maybe STAR Labs people) are going to work on getting him back to normal size for a portion of the season. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

If Felicity is stuck on Palmer Island for more hero building I may have to quit the show. 

[statsgirl]

I find it doesn't bother me so much if Felicity spends some time on Palmer Island now that she is definitely with Oliver in a relationship.  I kind of liked Ray and Felicity scenes once they stopped trying to force Raylicity.

 

Also, the Arrow lair is going to be very crowded now with Laurel and Thea added, by which I mean they'll get lots more screentime than poor Roy got. I have the feeling Felicity is going to end up with the short end of the stick as she did in 2B so if she gets her airtime working to fix Ray and PT while the A plot is Laurel being all BC with Diggle and Oliver, I'll be okay with that.

Edited July 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[DrSpaceman10]

When/where was it announced that Ray was coming back to Arrow in Season Four? I missed that.

[Chaser]

If Felicity is off with Ray, it's a re-do of the last season (minus the romance). Felicity gets a great job, but everything is devoted to Ray. And again, Ray is interacting with no one but Felicity. I'm glad about the no romance, but the above does not sound great to me.

 

I'm okay with Felicity having less screen time as long as she is getting quality screen time. I'm not here for Laurel and Thea tag teaming Felicity's place on the Team. I'm also not here for Felicity being 'the girlfriend.' I don't want Oliver/Diggle/Thea/Laurel interacting with the LOA over Sara and Felicity babysiting Ray, and just a cutsy Oliver/Felicity scene at the end of the episode.

 

There was missing Team element in S3 and I really want that back.

[apinknightmare]

This is me being optimistic, but I don't think we'll have to worry about Felicity being on Ray island in S4. Ray's not a love interest anymore, Ray knows about Oliver and the rest of the team now. There isn't really any reason to keep him separated from the team anymore. 

[Chaser]

I'm hopefully that SA's quote about characters interacting is about Ray.

[dtissagirl]

Palmer + Laurel partner up! Fast-forward button + myself partner up! #SeasonFourWishes

[kismet]

To be honest, I actually liked the Laurel/Ray scenes. I think they work well together. They have a similar energy. I don't think I would mind if they spent more time together.

 

My wish for s4 is that Ray doesn't suck up a lot of time in terms of plot. He's missing, so what? Just find him and let him be useful to the team before he goes off on the spin-off. There is no big mystery to the audience as to why he is missing. We know he just shrunk and is presumed dead. I don't need to watch the cast go through this big emotional & psychological juggarnaut as to where he might be. It was one thing last year when we are mourning Oliver or Sara who have been integral to the story from s1. But Ray was just a cast add-on in s3, I have no emotional attachment. I had more attachment to some of the villains than him. I also want FS's plot line to be about more than finding a missing person that we know is not missing and we know won't be on the show come Spring.  

[jay741982]

I'd like to Felicity won't be spending too much time on Palmer island so to speak. She and Oliver are a couple, Ray was interacting with the team by the end of the season . I go back to MG saying Dig and Felicity fans would enjoy this season as they are getting bigger focus. Felicitys Dad is reportedly going to be working for HIVE. I will HATE if Felicity isn't a big part of TA as she should be in season 4 she's the Queen dating the King of TA for God sakes

[BkWurm1]

This is me being optimistic, but I don't think we'll have to worry about Felicity being on Ray island in S4. Ray's not a love interest anymore, Ray knows about Oliver and the rest of the team now. There isn't really any reason to keep him separated from the team anymore. 

I think Ray might be left stuck on Palmer Island for a while.  I could easily see signs of him  (tiny signs mind you - bad pun intended) cropping up several episodes before they actually "find" him.  Once they find him, they might fix it lickity split or they might drag it out as something Felicity or maybe Professor Stein work on together.  After all, the process seems kind of out of her prevue.  I'm probably reaching 'cause I love Victor Garber.  Plus 

I did read that Stein will be Ray's old professor and that they DO not get along. So that would be fun.

 

 

My wish for s4 is that Ray doesn't suck up a lot of time in terms of plot. He's missing, so what? Just find him and let him be useful to the team before he goes off on the spin-off. There is no big mystery to the audience as to why he is missing. We know he just shrunk and is presumed dead. I don't need to watch the cast go through this big emotional & psychological juggarnaut as to where he might be. It was one thing last year when we are mourning Oliver or Sara who have been integral to the story from s1. But Ray was just a cast add-on in s3, I have no emotional attachment. I had more attachment to some of the villains than him. I also want FS's plot line to be about more than finding a missing person that we know is not missing and we know won't be on the show come Spring.  

Unless Ray pined over Felicity all summer before changing her file at PT, I assume he'd been "dead" for five or six months.  Just because of the time issue no one will be in morning for him, I'd think.  I'd assume his story line would be comedic.  I mean, it soooo wants to be made fun of. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

When/where was it announced that Ray was coming back to Arrow in Season Four? I missed that.

 

When the CW announced its 2015 fall schedule, it included official synopses for its shows.  The Arrow synopsis for S4 (posted in Spoilers Only thread) stated: "To do this, he created the persona of the Arrow and allied himself with former military man John Diggle (David Ramsey), computer-science expert Felicity Smoak (Emily Bett Rickards), billionaire inventor Ray Palmer (Brandon Routh), lawyer-turned-vigilante Laurel Lance (Katie Cassidy), and his sister Thea (Willa Holland)."

 

Also, BR confirmed that Ray Palmer will be returning to Arrow for at least part of S4 in this June 2015 interview at E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo) in Los Angeles:

"Legends of Tomorrow. It comes out in January.... I'll be back on Arrow for a little bit, uh, Season 4, leading up to that."

Video: http://www.gamespot.com/videos/brandon-routh-of-arrow-and-superman-returns-kinda-/2300-6425690/

Edited July 8, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

A little bit of extra info: that person who works post-production said on Twitter they won't start working on LoT until September. Which gels with LoT starting shooting mid to late August. That gives Routh [and Caity Lotz too, I guess] the opportunity to be in the first 4? 5? episodes of Arrow S4.

 

The BC Filming Commission doesn't have the LoT shooting dates up yet, but this is the place to look for that info in the upcoming weeks:

http://www.creativebc.com/crbc-services/motion-picture-services/in-production/films.php?type=series

[lexicon]

Palmer + Laurel partner up! Fast-forward button + myself partner up! #SeasonFourWishes

 

Partner up and both move over to spin off island...sorry LOT? I am down with that.

[DrSpaceman10]

Also, BR confirmed that Ray Palmer will be returning to Arrow for at least part of S4 in this June 2015 interview at E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo) in Los Angeles:

"Legends of Tomorrow. It comes out in January.... I'll be back on Arrow for a little bit, uh, Season 4, leading up to that."

Video: http://www.gamespot.com/videos/brandon-routh-of-arrow-and-superman-returns-kinda-/2300-6425690/

 

Thanks for that info. I did see a picture of Brandon Routh in the Flash Writers Room a few weeks ago, so maybe he'll end up over there for a while too.

[NumberCruncher]

Thanks for that info. I did see a picture of Brandon Routh in the Flash Writers Room a few weeks ago, so maybe he'll end up over there for a while too.

*prays to the gods this happens and he stays there permanently*

I really have zero interest in seeing Ray Palmer in Arrow S4.

[catahoulamama]

*prays to the gods this happens and he stays there permanently*

I really have zero interest in seeing Ray Palmer in Arrow S4.

I have zero interest in seeing Ray Palmer ever again, but fear he'll appear on all three shows.  *sigh*

[FormerMod-a1]

A question has come up about cross-over/related show spoilers.  We agree this is a muddy area, but have decided LoT spoilers as they relate to Arrow do not need to be spoiler tagged in the Spoiler Discussion area as they could also be considered Arrow spoilers.  

[tarotx]

With Neal McDonough casting as DD he won't be a love interest for Thea and Probably not Laurel. But I can see him as Felicity's father. Though I still don't want that. Though Thea and Felicity can bond over Evil fathers. Nyssa too. I think he voiced Oliver Queen before though I might be wrong? That's a cool wink.

I guess they could still have him be a love interest for Laurel if they want to do the Black Canary with older bloke. That is her Dynamic with Oliver in the comics. I think I want this more than DD as Felicity's father. He's going to have to be connected to one of the cast on a personal level. Beyond him having Diggle's brother killed. Though I guess it depends on how Andy was connected to HIVE.

[catrox14]

Oh man that's a great casting get. I LUUUUVVV Neal McDonough. 

[Velocity23]

Neal McDonough will be a series regular.

https://twitter.com/insidethetube/status/619556383793520641

[manbearpig]

Remember that season of Desperate Housewives where McDonough played Edie's villainous husband and they would play ominous music almost every time he appeared? I hope they don't do that on Arrow.

[Chaser]

A regular? Isn't that a little much for a season's villain? Shades of Malcolm.

 

I'm against him being Laurel's love interest. I do not what a Big Bad to be anyone's love interest. Still don't want DD to be Felicity's father. Must have EBR and Neal interact a lot tho. lol

[BkWurm1]

I know I've seen him in something but I couldn't say what. (It wasn't Justified). My impression is they did well in casting. He menaces nicely with a sophisticated air.

I would love for him to be in Starlings government as, well, like as the Police Commissioner, the dude above Quentin. That would be an interesting dynamic. It would also mean that Laurel would work with him. I still feel like there was more behind the season final scene with the cop's orders to shoot both Ras and Oliver. Even if DD doesn't show up in person, I'd expect his corruption to influence positions of power.

Edited July 10, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Morrigan2575]

I know I've seen him in something but I couldn't say what. (It wasn't Justified). My impression is they did well in casting. He menaces nicely with a sophisticated air.

I would love for him to be in Starlings government as well like as the Police Commissioner, the dude above Quentin. That would be an interesting dynamic. It would also mean that Laurel would work with him. I still feel like there was more behind the season final scene with the cops orders to shoot both Ras and Oliver. Even if DD doesn't show up in person, I'd expect his corruption to influence positions of power.

Suits

Agents of SHIELD/Carter/Captain America - He's Dum Dum Dugan

Red 2

Justified

 

He's been in a lot of movies and TV Shows.  Good actor even if the white/blonde hair and blue eyes make him look pretty freaky

[apinknightmare]

He sticks out most in my mind from Band of Brothers. I loved him in that. And also Captain America/Agent Carter. 

[tarotx]

He has to be something if he's a regular. I don't have issue with anyone's LI being the Vilian for a season. Especially Laurel because she needs to be part of the A plot and she really has no connection to Oliver other than the saving the city fighting. And Comic BC did date Ra's for a bit. I do think he's a little older than I'd like for her though.

Edited July 10, 2015 by tarotx

[BkWurm1]

Suits

Agents of SHIELD/Carter/Captain America - He's Dum Dum Dugan

Red 2

Justified

 

He's been in a lot of movies and TV Shows.  Good actor even if the white/blonde hair and blue eyes make him look pretty freaky

Suits! Of course. I really should have remembered him. Between than and Red 2. (I had my Red 2 ephipany over on a different page, lol. ).

Yeah, the light hair and the light eyes make him look almost unworldly. This has to be in response to the lack of love over Ras. They seem to have stepping up the casting.

[apinknightmare]

He has to be something if he's a regular.

 

He's the big bad for the season, haha. 

 

I don't think they'd make him a LI for Laurel, not on this network. And they only way they could do it is if he infiltrates SC under a pseudonym since they all know that Damien Darhk is connected to Ra's. I mean, maybe they'll do that - have him being a mayoral candidate or something. 

[tangerine95]

I think he's going to be Felicity's father.I had my doubts but now that they cast a better known actor and made him a regular its looking more likely.Please no to the Laurel LI idea that would be gross and why sadle a good actor with the weakest one on Arrow.

[apinknightmare]

Words cannot express how much I DO NOT WANT Felicity's Father to be THE big bad. Evil daddies are so overplayed on this show. Donna didn't seem to have bad feelings about him, so I really hope he's just some guy who got tied up in HIVE (or something) and left to protect them. 

[tangerine95]

I would be fine if he was or if he wasn't.Depends on how they write Damien Darhk.If he is they're gonna have to give a good reason as to why he would spend 6 years married in Vegas.

[apinknightmare]

 

If he is they're gonna have to give a good reason as to why he would spend 6 years married in Vegas.

 

There isn't one, haha.

 

ETA: I mean, seriously, if they try to sell this dude as taking a sabbatical or falling in love with Donna and actually living as a family man in Vegas they are Ra's-ifying him as a villain, taking all bite out of him. Unless we have some kind of Dread Pirate Roberts situation where he takes someone's place. But that's still stupid and they kind of already did that last season with Oliver and Ra's.

Edited July 10, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Chaser]

I'm hopeful they confirm DD is not Felicity's father this weekend. I don't want this to snowball into another wedding-theory-event.

[tangerine95]

There isn't one, haha

Yeah it does seem hard to buy he would.But I'll wait and see.I kinda hate that they connected HIVE to the LOA.They were so lame,I wish Damien Darhk had nothing to do with Ras.But I think  they once again wanted to connect Malcolm to the plot,with him being the new Ras.

[Carrie Ann]

On the pro side, I love Neal McDonough. So much. I can't wait to see his pretty face and scary/pretty eyes on-screen every week.

 

On the con side, the casting makes me nervous that DD is Felicity's dad. I hate it and I don't want it to be true, but casting the ultimate in blonde-haired, blue-eyed dudes of a certain age...

 

So a little pre-fanwanking regarding those (technically seven, if you count the pregnancy) years in Vegas: they could spin it that he fell for Donna due to Smoak ladies' extreme charisma and awesomeness, and tried to give up this LOA quest and other life during that time. And then he just couldn't do it, got sucked back in for some reason, and that could tie into the heroes' concerns about whether they will ever be able to have normal lives blah blah. This also requires Felicity (and probably Donna) to have no idea about any of that; they would have had to believe something else about him. They seem to know he's shady, but maybe they only know about one specific aspect.

 

I too wish they'd clear it up this weekend, but they probably won't.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[quarks]

They may have been able to cast a little bigger since they won't be paying for Brandon Routh's salary in quite as many episodes.  Still, I'm braced for weeks of IS HE FELICITY'S FATHER? IS HE? IS HE?

 

IMDB.com says McDonough actually voiced Green Arrow for a cartoon short once. I wonder if they'll have a meta reference to that?

Edited July 10, 2015 by quarks

[apinknightmare]

I'm nervous about it him being Felicity's dad, too. I think the idea is utterly ridiculous, but sadly, after this casting, I think it's more possible than not. 

 

I'm gonna need a villain who is just straight-up evil, and I was hoping that would be DD. I think the idea that a terrible person would try to give up that life to have a family could be interesting, but whenever these writers try to give their villains nuance, they utterly fail. I was just hoping he'd be an all-out awful guy with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Ra's already had his whole falling in love with a woman spiel, and I just...I really do not want this guy to be Felicity's dad.

 

So he probably will be.

[Morrigan2575]

Funny. I think making DD Felicity's dad is the best story version they can go for.  It maximizes angst/drama on all fronts and puts TA directly in the middle between LOA/HIVE.  It just ties all the pieces together in a perfectly dysfunctional melodramatic way.

 

You have Oliver tied to LOA through MM/Thea/Nyssa.  You have Oliver tied to HIVE through Felicity/DD.  You have LOA/HIVE tied together through history/RA's.  Add to that you have Diggle tied to HIVE via Andy.  Making DD responsible for Andy's death and Felicity's father, maximizes the angst/drama between Oliver/Diggle, Oliver/Felicity and Felicity/Diggle.  You have Felicity who pretty much hates MM now tied to someone as bad or worse who is on opposite side of LoA.

 

Basically it's the perfect triangle for almost all Arrow characters.  LOA vs HIVE with TA caught in the middle.

 

Of course, that's assuming they actually go the smart way...somehow I doubt they'd go for smart drama and end up with DD/MM in a pissing match over a dead love and blaming Oliver/Starling City for some stupid reason

Edited July 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Carrie Ann]

"I really, REALLY do not want ________. So it will probably happen." After S3, I think that's probably the safest approach, and the one most likely to be accurate!

[apinknightmare]

Funny. I think making DD Felicity's dad is the best story version they can go for.  It maximizes angst/drama on all fronts and puts TA directly in the middle between LOA/HIVE.  It just ties all the pieces together in a perfectly dysfunctional melodramatic way.

 

This could be cool, but I'm just not sure where they'd go with DD being Felicity's dad. She seems to pretty much hate him, and Felicity's hardcore enough not to care if the evil guy is her father if he's doing evil things, so it seems to me there wouldn't be much conflict for her there. I suppose they could somehow make her sympathetic to him, but...why would she be? She's not even now when it seems like all she knows he's done is some white collar type crime. Finding out he's used the Lazarus Pit and is the leader of HIVE who, among other things, killed Andy? I can't see her going all soft and conflicted over that. Might as well have DD not be her father at all.

 

Now, if her dad is some random HIVE member, to me, there's more there. She's still connected to the main storyline since her dad is in HIVE, and if his backstory involves abandoning her and Donna because he was being threatened by them and the easiest way to keep them safe was to leave them, and joining HIVE was the price he had to pay, that to me is WAY more interesting. Because finding out there was a good reason for leaving (and a noble, Oliver-like one at that) would cause some conflict for her, especially since HIVE is responsible for Andy's death, and their leader would be Oliver and the team's main target. Seems like there's more meat there to me. 

[Starfish35]

Well, Felicity is not a true blonde, so DD being blond doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I think this casting is proof, however, of just how cynical I've become about Arrow. I really like Neal McDonough. And don't shoot me, but I vastly prefer this to Sebastian Roche. But all I can do is sit here and think about all the ways this can go wrong. *sad*

[Chaser]

If they hadn't already established Donna as a cocktail waitress in Vegas, I would be more open to the idea of DD being Felicity's father. But since they have, I feel they would have to bend the narrative so much to accommodate why a guy as old as Ra's, and more powerful then him would take a break and attempt to settle down in Vegas for the family life. It would be a really tough sell for me.

 

Sadly, because Morrigan2575 does lay out a good framework. And I keep thinking of that fan fiction, Legacies I think its called?

[Morrigan2575]

This could be cool, but I'm just not sure where they'd go with DD being Felicity's dad. She seems to pretty much hate him, and Felicity's hardcore enough not to care if the evil guy is her father if he's doing evil things, so it seems to me there wouldn't be much conflict for her there. I suppose they could somehow make her sympathetic to him, but...why would she be? She's not even now when it seems like all she knows he's done is some white collar type crime. Finding out he's used the Lazarus Pit and is the leader of HIVE who, among other things, killed Andy? I can't see her going all soft and conflicted over that. Might as well have DD not be her father at all.

 

Now, if her dad is some random HIVE member, to me, there's more there. She's still connected to the main storyline since her dad is in HIVE, and if his backstory involves abandoning her and Donna because he was being threatened by them and the easiest way to keep them safe was to leave them, and joining HIVE was the price he had to pay, that to me is WAY more interesting. Because finding out there was a good reason for leaving (and a noble, Oliver-like one at that) would cause some conflict for her, especially since HIVE is responsible for Andy's death, and their leader would be Oliver and the team's main target. Seems like there's more meat there to me. 

I could be wrong but I don't think Felicity's relationship with her father is very black and white.  She's got a lot of issues tied up with the drama surrounding her feelings of abandonment.  They could easily have DD tell Felicity that he left her and Donna to keep them safe from Ra's or his enemies.  Or they could not even bother.  Any real reason given for why Thea was so high on MM?  She hated MM in S1/S2 but in S3 she's MM is great no wait I hate him but that's OK because for some very stupid reason Oliver is all MM has to be saved for Thea's sake...he's her FATHER!

 

Honestly, with a good storyteller DD as Fel's dad is a goldmine.  With these idiots it's going to be lame as all hell, just like Deathstroke and Ra's and even The Undertaking.   It's always a lame/trope usually involving a dead woman.

 

As for getting the same result with making Fel's dad a drone under HIVE.  Sure but why bother paying 2 actors when you can accomplish the same story with one actor/character?

 

If they hadn't already established Donna as a cocktail waitress in Vegas, I would be more open to the idea of DD being Felicity's father. But since they have, I feel they would have to bend the narrative so much to accommodate why a guy as old as Ra's, and more powerful then him would take a break and attempt to settle down in Vegas for the family life. It would be a really tough sell for me.

 

 

Why would centuries old vampires settle down and go to HS?  

Edited July 10, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[apinknightmare]

I could be wrong but I don't think Felicity's relationship with her father is very black and white.  She's got a lot of issues tied up with the drama surrounding her feelings of abandonment.  They could easily have DD tell Felicity that he left her and Donna to keep them safe from Ra's or his enemies.  Or they could not even bother.  Any real reason given for why Thea was so high on MM?  She hated MM in S1/S2 but in S3 she's MM is great no wait I hate him but that's OK because for some very stupid reason Oliver is all MM has to be saved for Thea's sake...he's her FATHER!

 

 

This is all very true. 

 

I just can't believe, at all, that some fearsome leader of a terrible organization would've gone on vacay to Vegas, fell in love, and fathered a child (and stuck around long enough for her to even be able to remember him a little bit). I know some people have laid out reasoning for it here, but I just...I can't buy it. So, him leaving to keep her safe is stupid when he was a villain for however many hundred years before that. I just personally think it's one of the worst case scenarios, father-wise.

[Starfish35]

I just can't believe, at all, that some fearsome leader of a terrible organization would've gone on vacay to Vegas, fell in love, and fathered a child (and stuck around long enough for her to even be able to remember him a little bit). I know some people have laid out reasoning for it here, but I just...I can't buy it. So, him leaving to keep her safe is stupid when he was a villain for however many hundred years before that. I just personally think it's one of the worst case scenarios, father-wise.

Agreed.

[Guest]

Words cannot express how much I DO NOT WANT Felicity's Father to be THE big bad. Evil daddies are so overplayed on this show. Donna didn't seem to have bad feelings about him, so I really hope he's just some guy who got tied up in HIVE (or something) and left to protect them. 

 

THIS. I'm fine with her dad being involved with H.I.V.E on some level, like he got messed up in the wrong crowd or they made him an offer he couldn't refuse because of his skills or something. But I DO NOT WANT her dad to be DD. I can't picture the guy who hang out with Ra's al Ghul and used the LP to keep young suddenly marrying Donna and having a kid. It makes no sense.

 

Saying that, I'm expecting it.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Guest

[BkWurm1]

And IF he'd fathered a child, wouldn't his ego have made sure to bring her along or at the very least sent her to some private school? I could have bought into a brief fling while on a visit to Vegas, but to stick around for seven years and then disappear ... I can't make that work. Plus the sides the used in the auditions indicated DD has had no emotional ties holding him back. Why would a dude of nearly two hundred only decide to cut emotional ties in the last couple decades?

I really don't think it will happen, but I did like the idea of DD being Felicity's grandfather and that her father had rebelled and ran off to Vegas only to have to leave when daddy dearest tracked him down.

[Chaser]

 

 

Why would centuries old vampires settle down and go to HS?  

Haha…To fall in love with special snowflakes and make snarky comments in history class.

[tangerine95]

It is hard to belive he would be with Donna in Vegas for  years but I'm willing to give it a chance because I think it could be really great if done right.We don't really know much about DD or what kind of villain he's going to be.And I think the faliure of Ras proved that villains work a lot better the more connections they have to Oliver or team arrow. I don't think were very clear on how Felicity feels about him.She is for sure hurt and angry he left but Donna did alude allude that she was close to him as a kid so i think there could be conflict there.